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Two Peas in a Podcast

Episode 108 - Kavan Cardoza

Kavan Cardoza is a film director and Artificial Intelligence creator pushing the boundaries of space through his art. He is on the cutting edge of the new technology that is changing Hollywood and what the entertainment industry looks like. After winning multiple awards for his AI work, Kavan The Kid just released his first full AI short film called "Stay Inside & Don't Let The Dreams Out".


To connect with Kavan directly please reach out to:

https://www.youtube.com/@kavanthekid

https://www.instagram.com/kavanthekid

Duration:
50m
Broadcast on:
17 Sep 2024
Audio Format:
mp3
Kevin you are the future of where I mean cinema photography and a lot of the technology is headed first and foremost. I am just so thankful for you sharing your time and your expertise with me and our platform. So thank you for being here today, brother. Of course, you know, thank you for having me. I'm super excited to chat about all this stuff. Now, who are you and what is it that you do? Yeah, so my name is Kevin online. I'm known as cabin the kid and I am a originally a photographer and and film director. I've worked on hundreds of music videos commercials and documentaries. And then about two years ago, two and a half years ago, I started getting involved in the space starting with mid journey. One of the earliest versions they had out. I think it was mid journey three was the first one I started messing around with. And immediately saw the potential that was there and where it was going to go. So I really started just, you know, messing around with it, making images. Once mid journey for came out was when I started actually sharing the work I would create a lot of it's not on my socials anymore just because it's so outdated. So, you know, I archived it. But, but yeah, it really started messing around with it. And like when runway gen two came out. That's when I started the video implementation side of it. And that's what really got me excited because I, you know, that's kind of where my focus has always been is on the video end and telling stories. And so I saw that as an opportunity to tell stories that I've had in my head for so long that haven't had the opportunity to tell. And so I think the first video I made was a, was a ghost video and then and then one like a western video and they're very outdated now just because it's the pace that AI is advancing so they look like potatoes. But, you know, I stayed with it and just started making content all the time, primarily focusing on concept trailers and micro films and then just recently I put out my first short film. And so all of those things have led to a just massive change in my entire career to where now, you know, I do AI is a full time thing like that. This is all I do. I mean, I still do live action stuff, but it's usually that mixed with AI. So there's a heavy implementation of AI involved in the process. So that is kind of where we're at today. And, and I'm based in Los Angeles and I've been here, I think since 2010. So, so quite a while. Did watching your newest project. I mean, it is so incredible. Tell me a little bit about what it is based on and the amount of work that went behind putting together this, because it feels so short. At the same time, I understand that there is so much detailed work behind it. And I was what when I was watching it, I literally kept going like, Oh my God, this feels so real. How is it that good so quickly. And why do more people not know about this. Yeah, so the short film is called stay inside and don't let the dreams out. You know, back when I was doing photography is a full time thing. I put out a photography book under the same name called stay inside and don't let the dreams out. I created it in 2019. It's funny as it was. I wasn't trying to see the future or anything, but it released, I think February of 2020 and then COVID happened and the title stay inside, you know, so like, yeah, yeah. Wasn't the best timing for a book release of that kind of title, but you know, I had had that title in my head. I think since like the end of 2018, I was just like, Oh, I just, I just like that title. So this is actually the photography book itself. And it has, you know, a bunch of like different images and everything. So what I ended up doing is, and the quotes that you see in the chapters are like actually from the book. So I took a bunch of the images from the book and use those as ref images in mid journey to, I had to change them a bit because these ones are, you know, the character is constantly changing and I wanted to try and have some uniform throughout the short of like a continuous character. So they were altered, but the premise of the photos is still heavily present in the short film. And, you know, broke it down into these five chapters. So it started in a in mid journey. And then I took a photo shop polish and then would run those photos through Magnific, which is a photo up scaler. And then after Magnific, I take the photos into three different video tools, depending on what I'm trying to achieve and those are usually runway gen three. I like Luma's dream machine. I like Luma and clean for their keyframe elements. And then when it comes to runway, I just really like the fluidity of their characters and how they move. So went through that and that process is just a ton of generations. That's really what it is. It's just jenning and jenning changing the prompt to try and get the correct movement that you want. Once you know you're like, okay, this is this looks good. We can we can run with this, I would take those clips, run them through topaz labs video AI, which is a video AI up scaler. And would upscale them X which would make you know the footage essentially 4k and then taking that 4k footage. I usually bring it into Da Vinci in Da Vinci I do my grades, any effects that I'm going to do to the video, anything like that. And then I go into Premiere and I do all of my editing and Adobe Premiere and their effects. And then yeah, and then you know through the process, you put it out. I mean, you know, there's a whole another element of sourcing sound effects, music, all that other fun stuff. But it was it was a lot of fun to create. I think the project in total took took about eight days to make. So it's pretty wild. You know how fast you can put something together. I think the video in total is four minutes long and you know you're able to crank out four minutes in eight days. Yeah. And it's amazing how realistic it is because it does genuinely, or at least it's starting to feel like this is a future and this is exactly where we're headed. Now, before we continue talking about the work and a lot of these projects that you worked on, let's take a step back and let's zoom out at a 30,000 foot view and just look at this. Tell me what is artificial intelligence. Oh, wow. What a question. Artificial intelligence is, I mean, I don't, I don't even know really how to explain it. It's become this brain that's, you know, implemented into everything that, you know, we're using now in our daily walks outside of the creative industry. You're seeing it being pumped into everything, you know, the I, the new iPhone just got released and, and as a whole AI system baked in that looks really cool, you know, in their little trailer. I liked, you know, guy walks up to his to the dog and he's like, what kind of dog is this? And it tells him, you know, looks at the bike and he's like, what kind of, or where can I buy this bike? And it really pulls up things. So I think AI is this, this assistant and tool that's being used, you know, it's the implementation that's being put into even in the medical world, and, you know, what it's doing there, the education world and, and safety. I know there's, there's still people who are unsure about it, but it's, it's the fastest growing industry. If you want to call it that, you know, on the planet. And I don't see, you can, you can kind of like fight again. It's like a waterfall. You can fight against it, but it's not going anywhere. This is, this is the future. We're here. You're seeing it, you know, getting implemented into which, you know, people will think like maybe Terminator style, but it's going to be implemented into these, these robots they're building and, you know, soon we'll have at home robots doing the dishes and things like that. So I think the first prototype was already released. Did you actually see that? Yeah, I mean, there's like several different companies right now that are, that, you know, either have them coming soon, or, you know, an estimated four to five years. But I mean, I think I saw one that's like out in the retail value. I can't remember if it was like 50 or 70 K is for the robot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I like leading with that question for a particular reason that for general public, whenever you mention AI, people tend to think LMS, the large language models and GPT. But they don't consider all of these other uses of, you know, TV of replacing doctors of potentially changing how every single system that we are so, so used to doing work in could potentially shift five years from now, 10 years from now, or even sooner. You've been in the AI space for, what is it, five years? I would say like realistically like three, about three years, three years in the three years. What type of growth have you seen and what types of transformations have you seen with the tools that are available on the video side on the editing side. And I think the big thing that you'll see me asking with this question is that the speed of change is something that is so, so extreme that most of us are not even aware is happening. And people like you are on this kind of cutting edge of actually having the visibility into this going. Hey, four years ago, what we were seeing was something that did not look anything like a movie. Today, I'm able to, in eight days, create a project that is as real and feels as good of a production quality as some of the best movies in Hollywood. Yeah, I mean, the, you know, the process was really interesting, to my knowledge, you know, I'm, and there are probably other ones out there I could be wrong, but for me and my experience. And wait, Jen too was the first one that I used, they had like Jen one, which was like a style transfer more. So I wasn't. That's not really my particular cup of tea. There's a lot of people that do style transfer and make it look incredible. And I've, and I've done it before. I was really excited by the gen two element where they had like a text to video prompt and then they also had an image to video prompt. And when I started messing around with it, you know, being able to take my mid journey images and plug it into there. And just, you know, Jen to the motion wasn't crazy. It was very, you know, almost like super slow motion, but just seeing the photo move was like, oh, like you can kind of start telling a story like the foot slowly steps forward. You're like, okay, like we can kind of like tell like a little story here. And then I would say, you know, it was this past summer where I think the biggest leap to date happened. It was sometime in the summer, Luma set out their dream, the dream machine model. And that was like the first one where all of a sudden you got like this like real fluid movement, you know, characters like really fully walking down the hallway where you're seeing the whole perspective move with you. So cameras being able to like crane drone all of this stuff where you're like, whoa, this is, this looks real. And then shortly thereafter, you had, you know, runways gen three drops you had cling AI come out. Of course, there was Sora that released, you know, way before that but Sora is not publicly available. So that's why I don't normally mention Sora as much because like I think like very limited of people have access to it. And unfortunately, I don't. So if Sora sees this, they should let me give it a run. But yeah, like the current models that are out and then like a new one just came out the other day called mini maps, which is currently only in a textivity model but even the textivity was like, I was pretty mind blown with it in the aspect. You could actually get characters to read. I mean, in the other ones, you can get the expressive emotion, but this one, it was like really expressive where I had a character start completely, you know, like normal kind of face gets sad. And then tears actually like start streaming down their cheeks and stuff like that. And I was like, this is, this is a game changer. And so we look at that and all of from gen two to where we're at now all happened in a year. So I'm like, if that level of increase happened in one year, what does it look like from this moment we're talking now next year. I'm under the impression it'll be very close to video reel, like photorealism, where we're not going to be able to tell the difference. And then I think, and I might be over shooting this, it might happen sooner, but I think in like two to three years, you're going to see where we have full control of the characters, the objects in the space, everything to where like, it's not as much of like kind of, you know, when you're genning right now, it's a little bit of a roll the dice situation you're putting in your text prompts to help with the video. I mean, the image that you have in for your video, your image to video prompt. But I think we're going to get to a point where it's like, look, I want this guy to move his right arm lifted up to his face, you know, scratches face and then put it down and it's going to do exactly that. And once we get to that level, I mean, you know, I mean really in that point, I think anything is possible because we're going to have such a fluidity of motion that I think to most people they're not going to be able to tell the difference between what is AI and what is reality. And, you know, even like now, like, you know, with a lot of your open source models through comfy UI, the things that you can do right now I'm learning how to do this like facial expression software. And it's really impressive so you record your your actual face and you do the expressions and the character mimics them, but there's very little breakdowns so it looks so polished and so clean. And, and then, you know, you have like other image models coming out like flux and and then a lot of these things in the open source to where you can train and replicate people almost down to the detail and put them wherever you want. You know, you want them in outer space you want them, you know, anywhere anywhere you want to put these characters they can be so that's, it's just so exciting and I think this is going to be opening the doors for so many people across the world who are really talented storytellers that maybe have never would have had the option to tell these stories to express themselves and, and really, I think we could see a massive shift in how we consume media. You know, I mean, it's already had a major shift from, from socials like things like TikTok and YouTube and things like that. You know, it's each one of these that's come across it really changed the way people ingested content and so I think that's just going to continue to happen. But I feel like we're going to have like a, like a through the process because you're going to have so many unique voices coming out telling unique stories that we may not have been getting in Hollywood as of late. Yeah, I fully fully agree with the same vision that you have, there are a lot of creative people out there who right now just don't have the tools or don't have the funding available to do some of these projects. And I think part of where we're headed that's so, so rewarding is knowing that some of these tools are going to be so easy to use and so easy to implement that you're just going to have great stories that either resonate or don't. And you're going to have a very, very clear and basic understanding of whether people like the project that you're putting out or whether or not they think it's worth their time when everyone's on the same level playing field. Now, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Now, given some of the controversy with the Hollywood and actor strike around the use of AI, where is this middle ground between making sure that people aren't getting put out of work fully. But also implementing the tools that we're coming up with, or is the right path forward kind of just saying like, Hey, this is the future, let's adjust to whatever this is going to be. Yeah, it's, you know, it's definitely tough, because it is a delicate topic and I come from the film industry and I have so many friends that are working in that industry. But I think like all technology, whenever there's mass advancements in technology, jobs change and sometimes jobs can be lost, but new jobs are created. I tell everyone, it's, you know, if they're hesitant or not, you know, on board with the process. I say, you know, even if you're not, you should learn the tools, you should still learn the stuff because it's not going to go anywhere, even if, you know, regulations come in place on how people are training their models. You have so many open source models that are going to ignore those things and it's just never going to go away. So I think, you know, I think a lot of other things you're going to see is, at the end of the day, you know, it is terrible to say, but like a lot of stuff is run by money. And when companies look at the cost that, you know, what they can do with AI and what they can create. I think the first dominoes to fall where you're going to really start seeing AI, it's already done, you know, but even more so like in the next year, two years is like advertising. I think commercials are going to like heavily fall to the AI side because of what they can do, the speed of turnaround that they can have as opposed to, you know, doing it as an actual production, and where you could still use celebrities and stuff, but they might be signing off their rights. Like, okay, you can train me as a model and all this, but it's only for this project. Like, you don't have access to me for any projects after. And I'm sure in the contracts, they'll have to break down like, okay, if we do this X amount of assets will be created and distributed, but that's it. And if we create or distribute more, we'll have to pay you more. So I do think the advertising agency or industry will be that one. And I think like the music videos like labels. I think, you know, when labels are signing artists, they don't want to have to go out and spend, you know, you know, hundreds of thousands, if, you know, millions of dollars. Unless you're like Taylor Swift, where it's like, you know, you're getting a guaranteed return on investment, where with, you know, a freshly signed artist, you're rolling the dice a little bit more. So if they can go and create an AI video that looks really incredible, can do some wild stuff, but like the cost is, you know, ten times smaller or half, whatever that is, they're going to be very inclined to do it. I think the film industry, in my opinion, I think the first domino to fall with the film industry will be, you know, it'll be a merriment between VFX and AI being able to do some of the stuff in AI where not only for speed, but for cost. Because you look at, you know, the way I look at once AI is like really polished and dialed in, you look at stuff like the Marvel movies, where they have these just, you know, nomical budgets of like 200 and $250 million. And the movie then essentially has to go out to even break even essentially has to make like $550 million at the box office, like even, even then that's like a big risk for the studio. And so they're not going to want to like, you know, if they can cut that in half to where they go make, you know, the next Avengers movie, and instead of spending, you know, $300 million, because usually those Avengers movies are even more expensive. And they can do like 120, 130, you know, then all they have to do is just go hit 260 and they'll probably hit that opening weekend. I think, you know, that's kind of the future. And then, you know, I could also see it like in the horror genre. I think that's a genre that's always been kind of more on the like, let's, let's roll the dice and try something, you know, let's be experimental. Let's be different. I think of, you know, way back in the day when like the Blair Witch Project came out, and it was like, you know, the movies essentially like made to look like it shot on like a handicam. And, and, and it crushed at the box office. I mean, I think like their budget was like 40 K and it went on to make like 200 plus million dollars. And then you have stuff like, what is it paranormal activity where they did those ones like on like essentially what looks like they're shot on GoPro's. I think you're, you'll see that. I, you know, I think at least in the foreseeable future, there was always going to be like a need for, for actors, when, especially like when you're giving like really dramatic performances and everything. But I think it would also be naive to say like, at some point in the future, whether that's 10 years from now, five, 15, I don't know, but where, you know, hey, I will probably be able to do that too. So I don't, I don't put anything out of the realm in technology. I'm just like, it's just a matter of when. Yeah, I love that you're so generous and going 50% because when I keep going in my mind, I'm like, brother, at 10% of the budget, they might be able to recreate some of those things. And yeah, that turned my dwindle to five. And sooner or later, it's just likely to be everywhere. I think, I think the reason why I still say like at 50 is because it just depends on like how they're going to go about like getting these people and, you know, to come on board. I think if you're in the AI space and you're smart about it, you have to like also not undersell yourself and you need to make sure you're, you're putting appropriate rates. It's appropriate rates on, on your work, because if you, if you undersell too much and then that kind of becomes the norm, that's going to, you know, have a wild effect on, on everybody that's creating in this space and then kind of defeats the purpose of, of making this into a career. So, so yeah, I think everything needs to be, you know, priced out in like an element, but realistically, it's just more the speed. So, you know, a lot of times in film people charge by the day. So a VFX artist is doing something and they, you know, work on it for like two months and they're charging that out by the day. I mean, they're going to get paid, whereas like if you bring an AI artist on, let's say they have to work on that, but it only takes them a week. They're going to get a week's pay as opposed to a two month pay. So you're going to see a lot of difference. Yeah, that's my wife in the background, just as. Hey, did you hear about the Tyler Perry project that he was building out? I don't, I just remember like Tyler Perry saying, like he was scrapping something because of AI. He was like, oh, well, this is pointless. So he started this like $700 million project where he was going to build out. I mean, a ridiculous amount of studios and have a bunch of simultaneous projects. And he, he saw a couple of these AI films and went, my God, we're in so much trouble. This is where the film industry is going to go and he scrapped everything, which to me is like smart. Yeah. And to me, it's the first sign of like, I think this is where we're headed. Now, let me ask you this question because you're on the inside. You kind of get to see this. At what point is do the LLM's and the creativity of AI actually takes on some of this storytelling capacity where they start replicating or taking over the human creativity aspect, or do you think that's just not possible with the current form of. At this very moment right now, I think it's limited. Like you could, you know, people have already done that though, where they, they have like a base, like a paragraph base idea, throw it into chat GPT, hey chat GPT, write a script, you know, based off of this. And then it'll pump out a script. But usually it's, you know, it's pretty like paint by numbers, pretty, pretty basic, pretty in my mind, like predictable and stuff like that. But can it get there for sure? I mean, I mean, I think, you know, that's, you know, even as like a storyteller. Myself and all that stuff. Yeah, I mean, eventually, you know, there's just no way to say like, no, that element's not going to happen. It will, you know, at some point or another, the AI will be able to craft a story. I mean, something I thought of that could very well happen is where people, and maybe this doesn't. This is just my, my black mirror level brain going somewhere where I was like, Oh, what if like, the new form of Netflix in the future is something like. I'm like, I'm a huge X-Men fan. And I sit down and I'm like, okay, I want to watch an X-Men movie. I want it, the main characters to be Wolverine, Nightcrawler, and Deadpool and Iceman. And maybe the villain is Mr. Sinister. Set it here, this, you know, this timeline, whatever. You just like, essentially you give it like a maybe four paragraphs. And then it's like, okay, come back in five minutes. And like literally writes the whole story, generate, you know, at first it probably won't be five minutes. It'll take like, come back in an hour or something. But it'll generate everything, generate the video, all the stuff, the voices, the story, and then boom, you have a movie that you can watch. And it's like totally catered to you. I'm like, that would be a very interesting way of, you know, content because now people won't be in the same cultural zeitgeist. Like when everyone was watching Game of Thrones and everyone's talking about, oh, my gosh, you would happen on Game of Thrones. Now it's going to be like, oh, well, I, you know, I watched my version of X-Men and I watched my version of X-Men, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, all these different versions. And then yeah, they could go on there and then you could, I could be like, oh, I'm going to watch yours and you could watch mine and see what, you know, like, what it is. But I think there will still always be the other element to, and maybe I'm wrong, but I do think the other element of, of something like a Game of Thrones where it's like a cultural phenomenon. Everyone in the world like gets together, talks about it. Because I think that's just something in human nature that like, I don't think can go away. There's that being wowed by, by something in a group. You think like when the Avengers movie came out way back in the day and Captain America finally picks up the worst hammer and there's like all those audience reaction videos on YouTube of people just like losing their minds that that happened. So I think there's that, you know, the group element. Yeah, the togetherness, but at the same time, I do think there will also be like the individual element too, because I'm sure this happens to everyone, you know, like the whole, you're on Netflix or streaming service and you're scrolling trying to find something to watch and you're just like, there's nothing here to watch. That's where I could see that coming in when you have that moment of there's nothing to watch. It's like, okay, well, I'm just going to come up with. I would love to see this and then it generates and then, you know, whatever studios are doing that essentially, it'd be like, here's all of our IP feel free to, you know, take whatever that IP is and go tell whatever story you want to tell with it. I love that idea. And what's crazy to me is that black mirror kind of implemented this in a way. I'm not sure if you remember that episode where you got to pick your own adventure. Like, they gave you the options of what actually happens within the episode. I'm trying to remember it's, I got to watch black mirror again. It's been so long. Yeah, but it's crazy to me that they like years ago put out this idea where they went, hey, we're just going to give you like three different storylines for. Oh, band or snatch. Yeah, band or snatch. Yes. Yes. At the same time, I feel like they didn't get the recognition. They should have gotten for how amazing of an idea just in general it is. Because it almost like, yeah, they were really enjoyed that. Yeah, like, that was so much fun to like go through the second and finish. You want to watch it again just because you're like, okay, well, I want to go with the other decisions just to see where this takes me. Exactly. And you get to feel like you're part of the process. And I think that feeling of being part of the process is this new type of communication with technology that probably wasn't available to us previously. Like the internet is super one sided. You're the user. You do your inputs where this feels a hell of a lot more interactive. Oh, yeah. I mean, and it's just crazy like the more, you know, the stuff is advancing it at such a degree and such a rate. It's so hard to, you know, even even me like cuz you know I'm trying to do, you know, juggling like 15 different projects at a time. Wow. I also try to like maintain putting out content like like, you know, client jobs, then also trying to put out content like on a social side and, you know, just to show off like what I could do for myself. And then on top of that, like staying up to date with all of the tools with all the advancements in AI and everything. You're just like, oh, you know, it's, it's nonstop because I make a few jokes with like some of my friends that are in the space that whenever one of us goes on vacation. And it's like, all right, I'm not touching my computer or my phone for a week. I'm gonna, I'm gonna go and actually enjoy this vacation. And you come back and you're like, oh my god, everything changed like what happens. It's like you went in a cave for a year. I love that because it does feel like it's moving so fast. So let me, let me ask you this super loaded question. Is it a new form of something? Is it a new form of a life form that we are coming across? Or do you feel like it's still one of these tools? Because I feel like there are two different camps are people who are obviously on polar opposite sides of it. And on the one hand, you have the people who are just saying, hey, this is a tool that everyone uses. Just like the internet, it's possible that it goes in the positive direction or negative depending on the people who use it. And the other camp of people are saying that this is a new life form that we are forming. And we actually have no idea what the hell that we are doing with it. Where on that spectrum do you being on the inside of the craft fall into? Because as an outsider, I just go like, I have no idea what the people on the inside get to see that I might not get information on. No, I think that's part of the science fiction element that people have is like, we think like we're building something that's going to be uncontrolled. I think we're building something that's highly advanced, but still deeply controlled. Now, unfortunately, there's bad people. So, yeah. So you can call them like bad operators. There's bad operators. So bad operators can go and use this technology and do bad things. But I do not see will we get to essentially a super intelligence like an AI thinking for itself entirely making decisions, you know, learning and doing stuff that's not based from like a data training element. Maybe, I mean, probably at some point, but at the same time, I don't think that's in like a foreseeable future. I think where everything is based at right now is a lot more like kind of controlled and dialed in and just like advancing in tools and things of that nature. But I mean, who knows, you know, I mean, it's so hard if you would have asked me, you know, when I was in grade school, here's the future. When I was in grade school, cell phones were giant bricks, like they weren't, you know, like if you would have been like, oh yeah, like you're going to have like everything in the palm of your head. So like then to see like where AI is, but the way I kind of reference AI is it's very similar to like what I think like the internet did like when the internet first like went full mainstream, you know, to where like suddenly every single person's on the web, you know, going on websites, all this stuff, using email and everything, you know, back when people would literally, you know, you'd see on billboards, they would have the www like not just like, you know, whatever.com like like it's like, and they call it like, oh, I'm the world wide web. I love those. I love those because it doesn't feel that far away. Like it doesn't feel like that was that long ago that was in our lifetime that people did not even have like personal computers like you didn't carry a lot of this stuff with you. And I feel like I get this feeling that I'm super, super old whenever I talk to like an 18 year old college and I just don't like your childhood was so much different than a lot of the things that we grew up with. Because even being in our 30s, we can, we at least know the intense influence that internet and the computers have had on everyone and it's crazy to now know that we share the planet with a generation of people who like have not had that experience. Yeah, it'll be wild like 18 years from now and talking to an 18 year old, you know, and seeing like what their perspective is because they will grow up with AI always being present in their life. You know, to, I think of my sister who's she's only 10 years younger than me. And one time she was like helping my mom like clean out a box. And she found like one of those VHS rewinder machines. She was like what is this. And it's just like it's crazy to think like how we went, you know, if you look at from, you know, where my life started, like everything was still mostly analog. So now where we're at, you know, on a digital level and now with AI and, you know, I have, I have some friends when I tell them like, Oh, we're going to have robots, you know, within five, five years like it'll be like kind of common, you know, maybe it'll be at first for like people that are really wealthy, you'll see them. But they're going to be present and then they might be at events and things like that. And then maybe in like 10, 15 years when those costs can go down that'll just be general like they'll be everywhere, you know, doing. And that's, you know, another thing when you talk about jobs like what does that do for, you know, you think of someone who might be like cleans like an office. Well, you know, that job might be removed because now a robot can go and clean that office. Oh, so yeah, I mean, like there'll definitely be, but I think like in that turn with all of these new things, maybe there's a robot maintenance or this or that there's going to be all of these new jobs that are created while jobs also disappear. Yeah, I fully agree with that. And just like the internet, I feel like there's going to be this adjustment period where we come back to some type of balance of like, hey, here is how we implement that technology rather than let the technology run us. And I think in the long term, it's a good thing that's happening. Yeah, let me drag you through one more woo woo question. Come back and spend some time talking about your work. And it's this one. Like, I have such a deep appreciation on the business side for Elon Musk and the work that he's doing. And one of the big things a lot of people tend to not pay as much attention to because of X because of Tesla because of SpaceX is the neural link side of the world. And the brain implementation of pretty much implanting computer chips into your brain for a seamless user interface. How does that relate to the AI space because the future that I could potentially see is that same process of turning on Netflix and finding and creating your own adventure could actually be happening inside of our brain without having even necessarily needing to implement subject for technology if it's always with us. Right. Yeah, the near link thing is wild. I think, you know, just due to my generation, you know, I think it's so cool and I'm, and I'm all for it like where it's going to go and what it's going to be. I'll probably be skipping any, you know, advanced like machinery being put into my body. I'll be like one of those guys. It's like, no, I'm just going to stay with the flesh and the blood. Yeah, but I could definitely see in the future where like, no, that's like where with anything, you know, it just becomes more and more common and common practice where it's like, I mean, you know, when you saw that. The first examples of the guy, the, you know, was quadriplegic and they put the near link and then he's able to like play video games with his mind. I was like, that's mind blowing, like that literally blew my mind. So I think, especially when you look at it in elements where if you can do something like that and correct me if I'm wrong, did I read somewhere where it was saying it was going to help someone see. I think like they were working on it. Yeah, we're able to see. I don't want to say everything, but they were definitely working on like repairing vision in the specific thing, but I always wonder like, is it similar to the Tesla technology of having just a lot of sensors all over the place and giving you some perception of it? Or are they actually create recreating what is out in the universe and what the rest of people see because those two are slightly different for sure. Yeah, but you can't necessarily call one the other. Yeah, I mean, I would be very curious to see like what that looks like, but in regards to like what, you know, and where the future of Neuralinkas or, you know, someone else who uses it or like creates a technology similar. I think like where if it can improve people's lives in cases like that, I just think it's such a benefit because, you know, I'm saying that right now is a very, you know, healthy, fully able person, but like if something like that, you know, was to be happening to me. My perspective would probably greatly change on getting, you know, an implant like Neuralink or something like that for sure because I would want to be able to experience certain things. So I think where it goes, especially on like a medical level is going to be so impressive where I think it could get you could go into like if you want to go a little black mirror with it is when we go like more like entertainment straight value, you know, where it's like, I think that black mirror episode where they, you know, they, I can't remember, but like remember their eyes go white and then they're somewhere else in like a different world. It's like these or whatever and they're like living in the end. That could be weird because then we're like kind of now brushing with like the matrix and stuff like that. So it's funny that you say that because there are people at Google right now who are working on solving this problem of capturing consciousness, whatever it is that consciousness is. And a lot of them do actually think about it like if you remember in that same episode, they had the big giant boxes with like little squares of people's consciousness. And it almost feels like as crazy as it seems, there are people who are thinking about our experience in those terms. And it's weird to me, like being on the same side as you just going like, that's a little too far out there. I'm not sure if that's like the right direction or if you're just spinning your wheels at like working on a problem that's not a real problem. I think, you know, it's, you know, it's just tough to say, you know, because I also don't know if it's a generational thing. You know, I think like maybe with a, with younger people, you know, it could be very well more accepted and more implemented just because there's so much, you know, even more ingrained into technology, you know, every generation that grows up with this stuff is kind of like the absolute norm. I think makes those things even less hard to being adapt to. And I'm like, the most like love learning about all new tech, all new things, you know, totally advancing. But there is for me, like at a certain limit, especially once it's like getting stuff plugged in or anything like that, I'm like, ugh. Yeah, I'm all right. You know, at least for now, at least for now, because I'm going to push you, though, hold on, because if you say that, hey, I'm going to stick with the original hardwiring but everyone around you gets this microchip where they, I mean, have Chad GPT in their head and are able to solve ridiculous problems super, super quickly. I feel like it's not going to be, or at least my worry, is that it's not going to be an opt in opt out process where you get to go like, hey, I'm pretty happy with what I got. I wonder if there's going to be a point where we are just stuck in this thing where it's winners and losers, and it always feels like it's the richer people, the higher classes who are going to be the first adapters. And if that happens, kind of in what we've seen with society in general, what we're going to see is just a wider gap between the haven't have not, and where I worry about it is like, hey, where does that take society, because I have this like deep rooted belief that if we go down that route, then we're going into like the ready player one kind of scenario where you just have two or three people who are right on the cutting edge of this who capture the idea first, and they just get to rule everyone. Yeah, I mean, it would be very interesting. I mean, you know, it's kind of, you know, we already have Google in our pocket and being able to like, you know, in Siri and Chad GPT and all that stuff where you can ask it the questions, you know, get a response fairly fast. So essentially what you're doing is, you know, you're going from the pocket to like direct source. So now it's like, you asked me a question, like, you know, what happened in 1812 on whatever whatever and I can just be able to do that because it's just like instant data search like right there. You know, I mean, that's, that's pretty crazy. So I don't know. I mean, I could see it going that way. No, I'm not going to say no, just because people are always trying to 10x everything, you know, workflows time. I think where we look at how much people get done in a day now compared to the past is, you know, exponential. So I don't know. I mean, it's, it's tough to say. But yeah, I'd probably, I mean, at a certain point, because I do make the joke sometimes my wife that I'm like, once once we're old, like, if I can't move and I'm like, if I get, you know, to live that long and I'm like 70 something 80 something can't move or whatever. I was like, Oh, I totally rock like some kind of thing where I go into a different world and I can be a fighter man, you know, and I'm just like flying through buildings and stuff. And, and I'm just like laying it, you know, in a chair, essentially. So it's tough to say, you know, but that's also, I think a slippery slope. You know, if like young people start doing that stuff because it essentially could, you know, lead to like an addiction and all this stuff to where you would prefer to be in this digital world. And, and then do we eventually go down like a matrix route, like, like, you know, like in like one of my favorite things about the Matrix movie is the people chose that. You know, that's how it started was they chose to be in the, in the little cocoon things because they preferred the digital world over the real world. You know, I mean, I think that's, I think that's really far down the road. At least I think so but at the same time with the way stuff advances. I really don't know what 10 years from now looks like, you know, besides, if I had to put a general prediction on it, you know, mass AI implementation and pretty much everything that we do for sure level of robots in the real world, maybe fully automated driving cars. You know, we already have those, but I mean, like, you know, across the board. You know, a lot of a lot of other things that are fully automated. So yeah, I mean, it'll be interesting, you know, to see to see where that goes. The way I always look at it is just like right now I just kind of take it one day at a time. I love speculating because it's fun, you know, just like playing that game. But I'm just like, yeah, I'm just going to live in, I'm going to live in today and kind of just one day at a time. Just enjoy where it goes. I just want to acknowledge the fact that I'm so so grateful to be having this conversation with you in these specific terms because it doesn't feel like we have anything to gain from it outside of just, hey, here is what we are seeing. We're implementing some of these tools. You're implementing them on a way grander scale. And they are just just that right now. They are tools that make our art form that much better. Like the tools that I use for AI on the podcast is just about everything. And I just go, whatever the outcome is, it's so good because AI makes it so. And it's awesome to watch because I'm a guy in my room recording a podcast that a lot of people are looking at. And it's just like it doesn't feel like that much work. Now you've been recognized as one of the greatest artists by some of the biggest, some of the biggest and the best artists in the field. So I want to make sure that we acknowledge those. Tell me about some of the awards that you've been recognized for and what those mean to you. Yeah, you know, I was really fortunate to win two awards this year with the AI film awards. One best picture in in cans, and then just recently one best editing in Venice. They have one more at the, I think it's in October, it'll be in Dubai and I'll be submitting my short film to that one. And we'll, you know, hope to win again, but if not, you know, it's totally okay. It's just fun to participate in these things really wanted to, I've never got to participate in Runways Gen 48. That's happening this weekend, but I'm so far behind on other stuff that I'm going to miss this one again. I always say I'm like, the next time that would happens, I'm doing it. And then I just end up being too busy, but I'll definitely submit to their. Their, their normal festival where like you can like build a project on your own time and submit it because that's a little bit more manageable than trying to carve out just two days of, you know, here I go. I'm going to just do this for two straight days. Yeah, but, but yeah, no, it's, you know, it's been a blast. You know, getting to work with a lot of people in the space and then, you know, where the stuff is going, you know, I got to do a music video for, for Mark Tremonti, who is the lead guitarist for the band Creed. That comes out on September 9. Currently in the works of like a lot of like really, really big projects I can't talk too much about, you know, due to, to NDAs, but when they come out, you know, I'll be able to talk about them and everything that that I'm like, that I'm probably more excited about than anything just because it's starting to show like, okay, this stuff is really now like, you know, these are all like major industry kind of things that are now starting to happen. And it's cool to like see AI get implemented of that and also like mess around and do things that that level at that level to where you're putting AI and putting an AI stamp on it. I think, you know, again, like I said earlier, as the tools continue to advance, it's just going to, you know, just going to keep snowballing and you're going to have more and more and more and more for sure. And as a creator, what is it like being on your side, knowing that some of the biggest artists in both the music space and the Hollywood space are using AI and working with you. Because we're sitting today in a place where a lot of people are complaining about the inability to find work and you're on the other side that's going like, oh my God, there's not enough hours in the day for me to produce all these things and all the projects that I need to be working on. Yeah, I mean, like, you know, it's, I always call it like it's a, it's a good busy when when you're so busy that, you know, you have to turn down projects and stuff like that. But it is, it is wild, you know, that's why I, you know, I'm such an advocate of telling people to learn these tools, especially like in this, in this particular industry in the creative industry. It's just like, please, you know, someone that comes from the film industry or the creative industry in general and also knowing these tools, I think it's going to be far more ahead of the curve than someone who's not, you know, and just learning the tools because they already know like a lot of things that kind of play into like AI like shot composition, lighting, all of these things that, you know, help generate better results and prompts in these tools, like having that deep knowledge is very helpful. So I think it's, it's very important to like not like try and shun something that's, it's just, it's not going anywhere. It's not like one day we're going to wake up and there's going to be like, well, AI is not a thing anymore. And we're going back to like normal. It's just, that's not this, this is going to be the new normal. This is where it goes and it's going to continue to do so. So I think it's so important to, to learn this stuff. But yeah, I mean, you know, it's tough because it is going to change the industry. I mean, you know, I think anytime when you get into stuff like this and technology comes in, you know, there's, there's changes. You think of way back in the day, like, you know, before our time, like, you know, way back in the day like phone operators where they actually had to like take the wire unplug it, plug it into a thing. And there was tons of people working that job. And then eventually, you know, they, they fix that. They don't need those people anymore. So all those jobs are gone. But then more jobs happen. Like, I think there's always this ebb and flow of jobs will disappear jobs will appear. But you have to, you have to be, what's the word I'm looking for? Like, not aware, adjustable, adjustable, like being able to adapt, you know, being able to adjust and adapt with, with the changing of times, because, and I get it. Like, I think this is everyone, like people like to get stuck in a particular pattern or a routine, you know, and those are good. Like routines can be really beneficial, like, especially, you know, if you, you know, you go to the gym, you do this, you do this, you do this, but I think you also have to be able to break those patterns and routines to always be willing to learn something new, always be willing to try different things. Because I just think that, you know, furthers where we're going mentally. I could not imagine ending on a better message than that, because this ability to adjust this ability to implement the tools that are available today is part of the reason why you're such a creative genius. I think so, so highly. I think so, so highly of your work. And it's so incredible watching you put out the incredible pieces that you're working on, knowing that there are a lot more projects in the work, because they are phenomenal. They are a new type of media that is going to be everywhere. And I'm just so, so excited to see exactly where you take it. Thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. This was a blast. I very much enjoyed it. Thank you so so much again for sharing your time with us because I hope that more people are able to see and find your work, because you're an incredible artist. Oh, thank you. We really appreciate you. And thank you guys for listening. We'll see you next time. and we'll see you next time.