(Music) From Relay, this is Upgrade Episode 529 for September 16, 2024, a monumental day that we'll get to shortly. This episode is brought to you by Fitbod, Delete Me, and Backblaze. My name is Mike Hurley, and I have the absolute joy and pleasure of being joined by my friend, Jason Snowy, Jason. It is delightful to be here with you today, Mike. We're here celebrating. We'll talk about this later on in the show, but literally today is the 10-year anniversary to the day of Upgrade Episode 1, which is cool, man. That's cool. So I have a small talk question to start in possibly the only way that could be acceptable. Which comes from TF who wants to know, Jason. What is the weather like today? At least one person cares. (Laughs) Currently, as we record, 59 degrees Fahrenheit and cloudy and foggy, we had a change in the weather TF over the weekend. And our usual best weather of the year, September, October, pattern has been disrupted. And we've gone into a weird kind of cooler foggy mode, which is OK. I mean, I do enjoy those warm late September days, but it's cool and foggy. We went to the baseball game yesterday. You know this, Mike, you're-- Get up in the game. You're San Francisco Giants. Let's go. And the last game we went to, it was sunny and hot. It was still sunny for half the game, and then the high clouds came in. But having it be a little cooler and there being some wind was good because we were not as miserably hot. They built that stadium specifically to block the wind. And so the flags were whipping, and we had almost no wind where we were sitting, which is really nice. But that does make it hot on a hot sunny day. So yeah, anyway, windy, foggy, kind of weird. So thank you, TF. Thanks for asking. Now, update, real-time follow-up, 60 degrees. We broke 60, everybody. That's good. I'm happy to have gotten the real-time update. Let me tell you, I'm in Memphis, Tennessee, where there has been none that's over here, Jason. Oh, yeah? Hot and humid? So much rain. So much rain. Rain. It is raining like-- Well, yesterday it was raining like mad. It was very-- Remember that rain? Was it like the rain when we came back from the baseball game that one time? Nearly as bad as that. I maintained the rain. That was biblical. That rain time at one time, we were at baseball meet you in Stephen, is the worst rain I have ever seen. Ever where it was raining so hard that the rain was bouncing off the ground. Yeah, hitting me from all angles. Yeah, it was up there. When I was a kid, we took a trip to Washington, DC, and we were in the Smithsonian, I want to say. We were in the cafeteria. But what I remember is there weren't very many people there. There was a question about whether we should go back to where we were staying, because there was a tornado warning. And I also remember that one of the glass panels in the windows of the cafeteria at the Smithsonian was broken, and water was just pouring in. And I thought, is this where we die right here? Is this the end of the world? Will the tornado come and get us? As a California kid, I don't know anything about tornadoes. Anyway, but that Memphis, yeah, that was probably even worse than that. And it's cold. It was like cold yesterday too. Cold rain in. Really? Yeah, I think, Stephen, it's like the tail end of a hurricane. Like, there is a hurricane. Oh, yeah, there's that hurricane. And Memphis is just getting, like, the rain of it all, but-- Well, good news for the rest of the week. And I will be joining you in Memphis in the rest of the week. This is now the Memphis local weather segment, just letting everybody know. Highs in the mid to upper 80s. So it's going to warm up, and all that moisture that's down in the ground is going to come out and make everything nice and humid. So get ready for that one. Yummy. It's going to be, like, temperature of, like, 80 feels like of 150. Something like that. I hope your raincoat has a raincoat. Yeah. If you would like to send in a snow talk question for us to open a future episode of the show, please go to upgradefeedback.com. I am in Memphis right now because this Friday, September 20th, at 12 p.m. Eastern Time to 12 a.m. EasternTime, at youtube.com/apprelafm will be the sixth annual podcastathon for St. Jude from the St. Jude campus. We're doing it on YouTube this year, which is going to be great because you can rewind the video if you want to. Like, I love that about YouTube livestreaming compared to Twitch, and then it will be on our YouTube channel forever. So there's a link in the show notes which you can go to. Actually, you can, like, put a reminder on YouTube, but you can also just watch it straight there. Make sure you mark your calendars. Jason's going to be here. Casey, this is going to be here. Kathy Campbell's going to be here. We're going to have an incredible time raising money for the kids at St. Jude. Bigger and better than ever. More hosts and higher drinks than ever. It is Childhood Cancer Awareness Month. So that is why we're going to be broadcasting the sixth. Daniel podcast.on for the kids at St. Jude for the Relay for St. Jude campaign. And talking about campus, I've got to see this happening over the last few years and last year in October, St. Jude welcomed the first patients and families to its newest housing facility, the Domino's Village. It's one of four housing facilities that are available to St. Jude patients because St. Jude has treated patients from across the United States and around the world, which makes housing for patients and their families a critical need. So St. Jude provides free housing to any patient who needs treatment requiring an overnight stay and whose family must travel 35 miles or more to the campus. And now they have one more option when they need housing. The Domino's Village is six stories tall with more than 307,000 square feet and it features 140 fully furnished apartments. Patients and their families that are staying in the Domino's Village can spend quality time together in places like the Arts and Crossroom, the Community Kitchen, an outdoor activity space that has a large LED movie screen for movie nights. There's also places like a toddler room, a beach themed place space designed just for the little ones with a walk-in lighthouse and colorful mural with sea creatures, sailboats and beach umbrellas. Plus they have a medical clinic with three exam rooms where patients can get medicine or preclinical work before a procedure to the hospital. This is another thing in like the big stack of things for what makes St. Jude special to me because they understand that families need to feel like families and kids need to feel like kids even though they're going through this horrible, traumatic thing of having cancer treatment or treatment for other life-threatening diseases. They make sure to put the money that they are given in the donations to good use like this, that yes, it goes to treatment for cancer, yes, it goes to research for more treatments, but it also goes to making the lives of these kids affected by one of the worst things that could happen to a human to make their lives that little bit better while they're receiving their treatment. The relay community has shown so much generosity over the last six years, and we would love over the last five years in six podcasts with us, and we would love support again this year to support the life-saving mission of St. Jude. Please go to stdude.org/relay where you can make a donation today, and there are some incredible awesome rewards that you can redeem if you do. Plus, you can also find out about employee matching and how to set up a fundraising campaign of your own, where there are even more fantastic incentives available. Don't forget, the podcast.com will be on Friday, September 20th from 12 p.m. Eastern on the relay YouTube channel. When we rally for a common cause, we become more than a community. We become beacons of hope for all. That's why we're asking you all to join relay in St. Jude this September for Childhood Cancer Awareness Month. Together, we can help cure childhood cancers to go to stdude.org/relay to donate or create your campaign today. While me and Steven may be competing for the title of co-founder champion this month, we're all united when it comes to what matters most, finding cures and saving children, one last time that is stdude.org/relay. - Be a beacon, people. That's what Ted Lassa would probably say. - He would say that. He would say that. - Be a beacon. - Their hope, right? That's like, this is what they are. St. Jude is hope. - I'm in the dark, but there's a beacon over there. - So they do. - Very rarely is there a sinister beacon. - That sounds like, well, like a siren, you know? - That's not a beacon. - That's a good point. That is a really good point. - So a beacon, beacons are hope. Beacons are shining light through the darkness. It's a good metaphor, I think. So be a beacon, people, Ted Lasso might say. - And Jason would say. - I would say, I mean, if I were more homey like Ted Lasso, it would. - Would you like to do some follow-up? - I, of course, of course. That's, that's, okay. Just gonna say it here. One of the things I look forward to the most in doing upgrade when we started was that I had never done a podcast that I was on every week so that we could have a continuity where there was follow-up. See, incomparable, it's not like that. And I was on, I was not on every Macworld podcast. They were all just kind of like mix and match and upgrade. I was very excited. Unclockwise didn't have a format that could have follow-up. So that was one of the things I was most excited by about doing upgrade was the existence of follow-up and the ability to have an ongoing story and back and forth with listeners. So it's great. - So I'll swallow a little bit of this now, but later on we got some questions from listeners about the show and its history and six colors. And, you know, these 10 years we shared together. But one of the questions was about like what's changed over the show's history. This is something that changed because in the beginning of upgrade, you were so excited for follow-up. We did way too much of it. (laughing) - Way early on, there was much too much follow-up. And I think we kind of scaled that back over time 'cause we were spending a significant portion of the show just talking about the previous episodes. - Which I know, that makes sense. - It works for some, it works for some, all right? - It works for some. - I did have a moment where, you know, okay, let's just be real here. There are moments where I feel like I'm almost at the end of an episode of ATP and they're still doing Ask ATP. I'm like, are there segments in this podcast or is it all Q&A now, #AskUpgrade, by the way? - Yep. - You know, I get it. I get it that there is, it is a comfort, but also you don't want to do too much of it. - Yep. - This came in from an anonymous listener via the feedback form. In the draft episode, you mentioned how annoying it is that the A series chips don't line up with the phone name, but it's even worse internally at Apple. The iPhone 15 Pro shipped with the A17, whose internal project identifier is H16P. H16P reuses IP from H15G, which is the M3. In my organization, we primarily developed the G variant, which is M series chips, and inherit that design for other chips. So when figuring out which chip is in each product, we have to consider H15, H16, A8, A17, and iPhone 15, it is very difficult to keep straight. - Oh, and just keeping, yeah, keeping when A17 is H16, which is based on an H15. - Which is the M3. - I'll point out, it's also running iOS 18. - Mm-hmm. - I recommend that people inside Apple begin constructing, if they haven't already, a bingo game. - Okay. - Where you have various letters and numbers on a bingo sheet and see if you can connect them all to various products, because that's what this sounds like. - Yeah. - I've got H16, and M3, and A17, and I15, and yeah. - That's a bingo. - That's wild. That's wild. You know what, internal is internal. I get it. I find it weird that Apple hasn't synced this stuff up externally, because it is, there's like confusion and communication to customers, I think, when it's, you're getting 18 on your 16. It's like, why am I, but it's got a 17 in it. I know what? Huh? Hmm. - Johnny Suruji confirmed in an interview with YouTuber, Giga One, that the iPhone 16 and 16 Pro have eight gigabytes of RAM. He spoke about it very specifically, very openly, and talking about why they needed to move to eight gigabytes, what it enables for Apple Intelligence, and then all of the other benefits that may come from having this amount of RAM in an iPhone. So they did it, they said it, they've actually said it. - Yeah, this doesn't, I think what's interesting in thinking about our draft versus, for example, the Rickeys on Connected and other games like that, is that we have very specifically limited ourselves to the event video, and that leads to some interesting calculations and calibrations, for example, both of us missed on the announcement of the OS release date, which is today, but they didn't mention it, they just put it out in a press release, and I think that's part of the strategy is like, what does Apple deem worthy of mentioning in the video? And honestly, my opinion is that there are details that Apple used to care about, not just, I know people are like, oh, well, you know, Apple doesn't, omitted a bunch of stuff from this video, we noticed that. I think that Apple is recalibrating as well for the fact that they're doing this video, and you know what that, watch the film, watch the event, all of that stuff, like stays on their website for a long time, I think they viewed the live event as more of a press download, and now they are more and more leaning into the film as being even higher kind of level, and like, the day the OS release comes out is not at that level. They're like, that's in the press release, and I think we're gonna see more of this, actually, where these details are gonna end up leaking out later, that they're just gonna say, look, obviously there needs to be a higher memory environment and more memory bandwidth, and that might be as detailed as they get, and then, sure, they'll be an executive interview the same day, the next day, they'll be a press release where they'll actually release stuff that is beyond, like, way beyond what's in the video because I think they're, my observation anyway is that I feel like the videos are getting less specific intentionally because they're on a path toward being more of a commercial than they've ever been, and I think that wasn't the case when they were on stage where it was sort of, I think mentally, they were still like the presses here, and we're dealing with the press, and we're gonna give them details, and oh, yes, the world is also watching, and I think now they've flipped all the way over to, we may invite the press or not, but this video is for the world, and we don't need to get to that level of detail. Like, there's, I mean, the obvious example is, like, there's the end of the video, they don't say, hey, if you're watching this in the Steve Jobs Theater, go back at the end, and there'll be products on the back, like, they're, of course not, they're not gonna craft it like that, so I think this is in line with that, where Johnny Sruggi, like, is happy to say that they have eight gigs of RAM, but it's not gonna be in the video, 'cause-- - It's not needed, I don't wanna do that. Well, 'cause this is like, similarly, now they have the opportunity to get that information out in different ways, right? So like, Apple want the world to know that the phones have eight gigabytes of RAM in them, but didn't deem that worthy of taking time in the big event commercial. - Exactly. - But they know they can get that information out to people, so they'll just give it out through interviews like this. - Right, I mean, there's the stuff you dump in a press release, there's the stuff you put on the website, and there's the stuff that you hold as a tidbit that you know will get reported, and then you drop that in an interview, and that's all part of the strategy. It's just a different strategy, maybe, and maybe a more sophisticated one than the old one was. - So to continue with some bits and bobs that have happened since the event last week, to comply with e-regulation, the batteries on the iPhone 16 line have apparently been specifically designed to be easier to replace. This was a thing in a press release. I look forward to the tear downs for this to understand how, but I did see today something that I guess is funny. I think I'm related, really, but it's just a funny contrast to this, that the pro phones, the battery replacement has become 20% more expensive. But I don't, I think these are separate things in my mind. Like I don't think that the ease of the battery replacement is what dictates the cost of the battery replacement, you know? - Right, that may be true, interesting. Yeah, tear downs are gonna tell us a whole lot, right? I mean, tear downs are also gonna reveal the difference in the chips, right? Because there's this, there's an initial thought that because the GPUs were one different between the pro phone and the non-prophone, that that meant it was a binned chip. But there are suggestions that, you know, based on how you read the specific text of what was said in the event that they may be describing in the pro chips, the cores from the M4, but they didn't describe the non-pro chip that way. And there's a question if maybe the non-pro chip is a different, you know, a different chip generation even though it's on the new process. - Right. - And what I'm through is on the old process, and my understanding is you had to re-architect that, but maybe it's using some cores out of that or it's out of some parts of the M2. We just don't know. And that's the thing that somebody's gonna grind down that silicon and try to see what's in there. And that's all, that's all cool. That's the next little one. And it's funny 'cause like Apple, Apple knows people are gonna do this. And Apple could eliminate all doubt by just disclosing all of this in interviews and things. But this is how the game is played. Some of this stuff they're like, "Look, if you wanna do it, you can speculate. We're not gonna talk about it." And that's just, that's just how it goes. So I look forward to it too. - The iPhone 16 Pro features a new Qualcomm modem that should see an increase of 5G download speeds of around 25% over the 15. Now, I think this is interesting. - That's right, I'm headed to Qualcomm. What a great partner. - Well, this is why it's funny to me. Like, Qualcomm just like purposely making it harder for Apple to make their remodems by making a better and better and better. (laughs) - Yeah. - Yeah, sucks. - Like, well, you know. - Oh, good news, iPhone people. The Qualcomm modems are even better. Your 5G is even faster. All it does is raise the, I mean, Qualcomm knows it, right? All it does is raise the bar for Apple about what Apple has to do if they're gonna bake their own modems and go away from Qualcomm. I think the truth is that Apple doesn't have to go away from Qualcomm. It just wants to. And it doesn't have to go away everywhere, right? Like, it's possible that the rumor that they're gonna do this in the iPhone SE and maybe in like some iPads, like you're trying it out, right? Let's see how it goes. And maybe, you know, either you're confident that the iPhone 17 is going to have, you know, better 5G, even though Qualcomm's raising the bar. Or you could always say, okay, we're gonna wait another year or something like that. Who knows? I don't know what all the different benefits are for Apple, but meantime, Qualcomm, since this is their, you know, one of their key things that they do is 5G modems. Good for them. This sounds like it's a faster modem in the pro chip models or the pro models of iPhone. And 24% faster is, that's pretty impressive. - I'm really intrigued to see what that translates to, but great, right? Like if you could just make it faster just by putting a new modem in it, like fantastic. But I guess as well, you've kind of got to have the speed available to you in your plans or whatever, but nevertheless, still a cool thing to have. The FDA has already approved the AirPods Pro as hearing aid in the US. So that was fast. So we can assume that they'll probably be ready to go. Like as soon as iOS 18 drops provided Apple's, Apple was expecting that and it's in there. - Yeah, and this just in Mike, this just in. They also approved the sleep apnea. - Oh, wow. Wow, okay. - Yeah. - That's pretty cool. - They did that today. - Man, the FDA is like there on it. - Yeah, and Apple. I don't know whether this means Apple's like, FDA do what we say or whether it's more like, can you hold off? We don't have a final thing. Now, okay, now we're ready. Now we're ready for it to seek approval, but they knew like Apple last week was so confident about what you, these will be approved, right? Like, but the timing is interesting that they've gotten it to go like just as they're launching it. And the question is, will this require a software update or is there some sort of like secret switch that can get flipped when you're in a region that's got an authorization, which is would be a cool way of doing it. - This reminds me of, do you remember like way back in the day when Apple had to work with, was it the FCC? And they ended up creating a new process for submitting things secretly, which wasn't a thing that they had. - Right, 'cause that was the story when the original iPhone came out, is that one of the reasons they announced it way before they shipped it, is that they had to go through a public FCC process to get the radios verified. - Yep. - And so the iPhone was going to be leaked by the FCC if they did that. And so the story is that they did it early and then sought FCC approval. And yeah, not great, not ideal, but you're working with a public agency, but at the same time, the public agency knows that industry does not necessarily want all of their stuff to be disclosed by the public. So until it's like, until the disclosure time happens. So I'm sure that there's something going on here, whether some of our listeners who are in government could probably tell this, whether this is a wink, wink, nudge, nudge kind of situation or if there's literally a process where the company says we're seeking approval, but we don't have, we're not ready to ship the product yet. So can we hold off and you can release your final evaluation when we're ready to ship? Is that official or is that more like an understanding between these groups? I don't know. - Cool though. I hope that it isn't too long until I get some of these features in the UK, but I'm not necessarily holding out hope for it, especially with the, I think it was sleep apnea that they, I think one of the two, it was a hearing aids where they didn't even mention the UK, but hopefully it will get done here too. And Apple has shared an image of Wired that was created in image playgrounds. Apple is calling this the first public image that has been seen outside of Apple's original demos. And it is supposed to represent Craig Federighi's dog celebrating a birthday. I would say like, it's the best one of these images I've seen from them, but I still, I still like, but why though, you know? Like congratulations, I guess, but why? It's also very funny that Wired put this big thing across the, across the images as AI generated image, which is in line with their like policies. So it's just funny to see that image, this image going around the web with just that text over the top of it, but that's pretty smart from Wired. - So, I mean, my thoughts immediately were, I guess Apple's still trying to, you know, still trying to make this happen, where I thought like, maybe they would back off on this, and instead they're kind of like pushing forward on it and saying, see, it's fun. I, it's what I said back in June, right? Fun, it's fun with your phone, it's fun. And, but they're still trying to make it happen, which I guess means technically, they're still trying to make Craig Federique's AI generated dog fetch happen. - That's pretty good. That's pretty good. - I don't know, you should be happy with that. - That's the best, I look, these are the jokes folks. Anyway, yeah, it's, it's fine. I mean, it looks like AI generated pictures. It's, again, my feelings about this are complicated because I don't, you know, I don't really like the look, but I also appreciate the fact that there are scenarios in which it could be used for fun. And it's just like low stakes, nobody's losing their jobs. It's literally like, it's fun versus like, if you put it, and it's in a text message, right? Like you put in a keynote presentation when you might otherwise have needed a an image library, a subscription that is for a company that is paying photographers or whatever. Like it starts to get weird when you do that. But which is why I kind of like the AI emoji better because it feels much more emojis are constrained and in terms of their language, but also in terms of what is an emoji. And so you're kind of creating images that look like emoji design, apples own art emoji design. That kind of, I feel better about that, but you know, this is what Apple, I don't even know if this is what Apple thinks people want. I think this is what Apple is afraid people want and that will be used against them by their competitors. And so, you know, I watch football over the weekend and Google's got lots of pixel ads. I don't know, now you're in America, you may see more of these and maybe notice them and find them interesting, but like they are pushing circle around something to search it on AI, which is clearly Apple's thing with the camera control is going to be an answer to that. And like this is the, this is why I think Apple really is going so deep down in this embrace of AI. I think it's not that Apple is convinced that people want it. I think Apple is afraid that people will want it and that it will be used against them by their competitors. And so I think there's a scenario, I don't know what you think about it, but I think there's a scenario where a year or two on, we realize that 90%, maybe not a hundred percent, but like 90%, 80% of these AI features are a dog, no offense to Craig Federicki's dog, and nobody wants them and they're pointless and why. And then there are a few that are really good and then they're like, oh, this is what people want, but we're not at that state now, we're at the stage now where it's like, what can we do with AI? Let's shovel it out there. And if you're Apple, you're like, oh, I really don't want to do that, but we're going to get killed if this stuff is popular because we're so far behind years of why we better do it. And we'll see, we'll see if offering, because offering it to make images of a dog at a birthday party or your mom as a superhero to the public is one thing, but like, is this just Memoji? Is this just Slophies? I mean, right? Like you can push it, but it doesn't mean anybody wants it. So we'll see. Gemoji, I could see. Gemoji, Gemoji is more interesting. Yeah. And I'm going to counter something that I think is probably in the heads of some listeners right now, which is, yeah, but so many people are already using AI-generated images using AI chatbots and stuff. It's like, I don't believe that the people who are tinkering around with AI chatbots are representative of the entire human population. I don't believe it. They're different people. It doesn't mean that the general human population won't also like generating images like that. They might, but the people who are tinkering around with chatbots are computer nerds. I'm sorry, even if they don't know it, they are. Anybody who's like, I will talk to a chatbot now. I just don't think that represents the vast majority of the much more low tech smartphone using populace. So I don't think we know and maybe they will love it. Maybe they will. I just, but these companies have tried other stuff that seem fun apples when I mentioned Memoji and Slophies. Those were both, hey, fun with your phone. Yay, kind of features. And they went nowhere. So we'll see. - Yeah, we'll see. This episode is brought to you in part by our friends over at Fitbod. If you're looking to change your fitness level, getting started can be pretty complicated or it can be daunting. And that's why I'm pleased to let you know that Fitbod is an easy, affordable and approachable way to build a fitness plan that is made just for you. Fitbod understands that everybody has their own path with personal fitness, which is why they use data to make sure they customize everything to suit you perfectly. Fitbod adapts as you improve to make sure that every workout is challenging and interesting while pushing you to make the progress you're looking for. 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Overworking some muscles or underworking others can negatively impact your results. So Fitbod will track your muscle fatigue and recovery to design a well-balanced workout routine. This also means you won't be getting bored as the app mixes up your workouts with new exercises, rep schemes, super sets and circuits. The app is fantastic and easy to use. You can stay informed with the Fitbod's progress tracking charts, weekly reports and sharing cards, and it integrates with your Apple Watch, Wear a Smart Watch and other apps like Strava Fitbit and Apple Health. Personalized training of this quality can be expensive. Fitbod is only $12.99 a month or $79.99 a year, but you can get 25% of your membership by signing up today at fitbod.me/upgrade. So go now and get your customized fitness plan at fitbod.me/upgrade, for 25% of your membership, are thanks to Fitbod for their support of this show and relay. So today, oh, let's do the betales. Whoo, is the betales because it is, it's new OS day around here. So it's these less, that kind of, as we're recording right now, I think they're still in beta 'cause they're not available, but they will be available by the time this episode comes out. - And it's okay 'cause the point ones are also still in beta and will remain in beta until they release next month, right? - Yes, very good point. - Okay, there's always more betas, always more betas. - And this is probably a historical day because today, iOS 18, iPadOS 18, WatchOS 11, macOS Sequoia and VisionOS 2 are released. This is probably the most released from Apple ever, like the most operating systems in a day, because we now have VisionOS in the fry. - You have written a, what reviews have you written this year? - I have a macOS review, iPadOS adjunct to Dan Morin's iOS review. - Okay. - I have a piece that's going up later about my feelings about the new changes to the Photos app, and then Dan's got his iOS 18 piece. I wanna write something about the Watch, I haven't gotten there yet, and it may be in conjunction with the actual new Watch as well, and I need to write more about VisionOS, although I already wrote about when that VisionOS 2 developer beta came out, and it's great, I don't know, there's nobody who is using a Vision Pro who should not be on VisionOS 2, bottom line. - Yeah. - Just don't, just do it. - It's absolutely the right version. - Just do it, all that. What was it like to write the macOS review this year? I know that, like, I've been talking to John Vohis about his and seems like I would have struggled, to be honest. - So one of the challenges is Apple intelligence is hanging over everything. It's true of all of these reviews. It's just hanging out there. The main event is not here. This release is like a bunch of the side stuff, but there's this thing that Apple has leaned on as the most impressive thing that they're doing, and it's not there, which is weird. So that's a weird feeling, and I would say also, yes, in the beta process, a lot of features were just sort of like being added as they went and being changed as they went. I felt like there was a lot of stuff that was way more movable this summer than it has been in the past, and that can be a challenge as well. So the way I've, for the last few years, the way I've written my review is, I write a public beta story, right? When the public beta comes out. So that gives me a few weeks after they announce to spend time with it, and then write a story about the public beta. But the public beta, you know, I'm not being judgmental about it. It's a public beta. It's early days. They've got the summer to fix things. That's why it's a beta. And so I will make observations about, huh, this thing is missing. This thing doesn't work right. I don't know about this thing yet. And then in the fall, I come back to the close to final and I recheck everything and see what progress they've made. And I don't know if there's been a no s version that made more progress over the summer than Sequoia, where a bunch of stuff changed, and a bunch of stuff that I complained about in July is just fixed. So I deleted a lot of stuff from parts of it, which is good news, right? But it also shows you that they were shipping things in June that were, I mean, maybe they did change, some changes based on feedback, but I think a lot of it was also they were making changes because they were putting things in that were not feature complete in order to get them in the beta. And then they added them on as they went. So it's been an interesting process. - Yeah, I haven't really spent any time with Sequoia. And I don't never really play around with the Macbait as anyway. But I, you were sharing some stuff with me and I thought that you had just like a really good way of talking about their being this just, there's just this like cloud that's hanging over everything, which is the actual version of iOS 18. And more than-- - And Macbait was-- - I'm sorry, all of the, yes, I keep thinking of that, all of the point ones is what I was trying to say, right? Like all of the point ones for the major platforms include the big thing. - Yeah. - Right, which is, and every year this happens, this was happening for a long time that like 0.1.2.3 have features in them when we know they're coming. But it is much rarer for like what feels like the entire point of having the new operating system to not be in the shipping, the initial shipping version. And you can kind of feel how you'd like about Apple Intelligence. But if you are looking at the company and thinking about the company in the way that we do, it is clear that this is actually what they care about, but they don't have anything to show for it today, which is. This is also that function of the iPhone controlling everything. It doesn't make sense to ship iOS 18 right now. Like they should ship iOS 18 in October, right? They ship iOS 18 and it includes a beta for Apple Intelligence. But what are you going to do about the iPhone? So you kind of have to ship it now. And it's just like one of these, it's just one of these funny things about like we were always talking about this, right? How the iPhone just dictates everything. And that's why 0.0 of all of this stuff is coming out today because the iPhone comes out on Friday and they can't ship it with 17 on it. So here we are. Yeah, so here we are. Yeah, and it's, I mean, I could ask, are the intelligence features far behind enough that you had to delay them to October? I think what we're seeing here is Apple hedging. I think in June when Apple announced this, they were not convinced there wouldn't be big problems that prevented them from shipping it immediately. And so they said, look, it's not going to be in the first version and we'll get to it when we get to it soon thereafter. Now they've obviously reached the point where they feel like, yeah, October, we can ship it in October. If they had known that they were this close, would they have pushed it a little and gotten it into 0.0? Maybe? I don't know. I still think that, I mean, there's some worry about how it's going to work, but there's also some worry about just the strain. It's going to put on, you know, their servers, that they're building their little private compute cloud thing and all of that. But it is a little curious that they're literally saying, like, oh, yeah, in a couple of weeks it'll be out. So it's like, well, why didn't you push that? I know you're running full speed here, but like, developer beta's haven't changed that much. So could you have just shipped 18.1 is 18.0 and been fine? Probably, but I think they didn't know that when they're an initial plan, but so we're left. We're left looking at everything else and it is fine. Like, there are always a spread of features. Like, there's always like the A tier features that are there, that are the big ones. They're like, oh, this is a big change. And then there are a bunch of B tier features that are pretty nice. And then there's like, the C tier is just like all of this little tiny detail stuff. So there's still a bunch of B tier features. And depending on the platform, I mean, I would argue that there may be some arguably A tier features, but really, Apple Intelligence just obscures it all. So really, you've just got to say, Apple Intelligence is the thing that Apple's focused on. That is the number one feature on all these releases and it's not there. So we're left with the rest and it's a little bit weird. And I feel bad for some of the features. Like on the Mac, iPhone mirroring feature is really nice. And I think we'll make people's lives better. And I think that Apple's pitch for it was actually really smart having used it now because they talked a lot about using notification center as the method to get to phone mirroring. And I've found that that's actually true. The idea that I don't often go, "Oh, I shall bring up my iPhone now and look at what is going on." But instead, I get a notification on my iPhone but it comes up on my Mac and I click on it and it opens iPhone mirroring to that app that I don't have on my Mac. I'm like, "Oh, okay, all right, right." Like now it's all kind of seamless on this one screen that I'm using right now. And they did a good job. It's like, it's smooth. I've got some quibbles, but like in general, it works really well. They fixed a bunch of stuff in the beta. There was complaints I made about mirroring and specific, you know, about like, you couldn't edit the home screen. You couldn't add or remove apps and stuff. And they fix that. You still can't access control center, which I find a little bit weird. And you can't force a rotation, which there are apps where they work in both formats, but sometimes it's better in one than the other. And if it supports both sizes, it will always stay vertical, which I don't love. - What if you actually do physically turn the device? Will it do it for? - No, really? - No, no, that's related to the... No, 'cause your device could be in standby and it's gonna run the phone in vertical because most stuff is vertical. So it's not, no, it's just a thing that they should add. They probably will at some point because there are apps where that's nice to be able to force it into horizontal instead of vertical. And they added their little window manager on the Mac, which I don't wanna be a little bit by saying, "Oh, they're good, a little window manager." But that's like... - The tiling stuff? - Yeah, it's just, it's basic. But like, that's the point is, there are lots of apps out there that do this stuff. Like, Moon from my pals over at many tricks is one of them. But like, there are lots of them. And they all do more (laughs) but this is something and it's stock. And if people want more, there are third party apps to solve it. But this is like a very basic, I wanna put this window to the right, I wanna put this window to the left and keyboard shortcuts in order to move and dock, sliding things into the corners and having them resize and dock there. Like, it's just nice. It's a well thought out basic feature that is not gonna blow the third party apps, the third party utilities that really need this to be like, oh, I need it to be in three and I needed to move this thing around when I hold down this key. And like, Apple's not gonna do any of that stuff. It is once again, just trying for like a simple addition for the masses. And it is that. And I don't think it needs to be a lot more complicated. I don't love the fact that you can't change the keyboard shortcuts that it applies and that they use the globe key, which if you're using a third party keyboard, you kinda don't have. But again, nice Mac feature. The video conferencing stuff is nice. They have been layering on all the video that you take with your device, their own like video synthesis, right? So they had the effects that came in and the portrait effect and all of that. And so this time they have background replacement and they are a bunch of images of like Apple Park that you can put behind you, but you can also use your own. And Apple's background replacement tech is really good. And now every single app just gets it if they're using video because you can set that at the system level. And they just keep kind of like ratcheting there. It's a nice little feature. It's enough to upgrade on its own. No, but security updates are probably the reason you update on your own. And I mean, the list goes on. I'll throw out another one here, Safari. I really like hide distracting items. And I know it's kind of like a manual ad blocker, but like here's the thing. I don't think that websites should be prevented from making money on ads, right? I clearly don't believe that. But I do believe there is a point and that's why I think it's great that Apple calls this hide distracting items. There is a point where you are trying to read an article and right next to the words is a video, possibly even overlaying the words, is a video that is auto-playing. And it's so, or there's an ad that's blinking and it's so hard to focus on reading an article when that is in your peripheral vision. And so Apple's basically said, "We will let you make it go away." And it disappears like Thanos has snapped. It just burp into little particles and it goes away. And like, I can't be against that because in my mind, that is a violation of the contract between the reader and the website. If they are making it impossible to read your article in order to load it up with distracting ads, I think it's gone too far and it puts it in the user's hands to say no, that ad. And what I found is a lot of times the really distracting ad actually has an ad under it because they're trying to work around ad blockers and the ad under it is not distracting because it's not animated or video. So there are a lot of positive things about it, but I've really liked that feature because there are sites I read that like literally good sites and then halfway in the middle of the article, they just start playing a video of a completely different article about a different topic. And I know why, I know it's there so that they can run a pre-roll ad and claim that people were watching that video, but it's muted and like it's a rip-off. It's a rip-off to the advertiser. It's a rip-off, it's bad policy. And now as a user, I can just say I don't want to see that and it goes away and then I can read my article in peace. - Can I give you a quick hit list of the things that I like from the various betas that I've tried? - Sure. - So this is, I've been using iOS and iPadOS 18 and I've tried and I put watchOS 11 on my watch a couple of days ago as well. So in general, the emoji tap-backs and the text effects and messages are fantastic. - Yes. - They are a reason to upgrade to iOS 18. The text effects are so fun. And I think Apple has done an incredibly good job of detecting effects to be added to words. Like for example, a couple of days ago, I, for emphasis on a word, repeated a letter a bunch of times at the end of the word. You know, I was like, thank you, that kind of thing. And it picked that up. I was like, you should add an effect to the U 'cause you obviously done something weird to it. So they're doing a good job of that, but also they're just really fun to play around with and emoji tap-backs, you know, about time. - It is past time, but they are great. - Yeah, great. - The control center, I like the third party actions. It's fiddly to set up, but you set it up once. I like that you're able to have multiple pages of a home kit because I can now have a different page with distinct items, one for my home and one for the studio, which I love that I can have that. And that can set them up the way that I want to. Game mode is the thing that's been added when you play games, right? And I know that this is doing stuff like it changes some of the thermal properties and gives you more power, but something that it does, spatial audio for iPhone games. Now, this makes a ton of sense to me. I actually think spatial audio makes the most sense for video games on your phone than it does for watching movies and stuff. It just fits really well, especially if like, I play a lot of games that have sounds like not music, but sounds and I can hear those sounds while I'm listening to a podcast. And this makes a lot of sense because the podcast is up here in my ears and that sounds from the game are happening down there on my phone. It's actually, I really like it. I think it works pretty well. The new photos design, it takes some setting up again, like control center, but once you've set it up, you're a left with something that works better for you. Like that's kind of my overall feelings on photos. Does that jive of you? - Yeah, and like I said, I wrote a piece for my feelings about this. There was a lot of initial backlash to the photos design. And I just, I think the initial beta was a step too far. 'Cause it was literally like, you could scroll up or down or sideways. And I was like, mmm. That's a lot of different things happening in one app. And they took out the scroll sideways. And now it's just there, it opens with two things. The library grid above and collections below. And again, like I heard from people who are like, oh, I can't believe they did this. I just want my library. I just want my grid of photos that's completely chronologically ordered with the most recent ones at the top. And like, okay, photos has two things about it. One of them is it's where your system camera roll basically is. And like you need to be able to get to it to get to that last photo you took. I get it. But the whole point of having a photo library is to look at the photos in the library, I think. And that includes on your devices, not just like back home on a Mac or something. It includes on your devices, especially for like, and I think, I think again, our more computer-focused community is maybe over-indexing on, I don't want to see collections. I just want to see a utilitarian grid. And I just don't agree. I think the problem with apples, first off, there's this perception, it's like, oh, it's just Apple's stupid machine learning stuff, trying to recommend a memory for me. And that is on Apple, because that's how Apple pushed this stuff primarily, was with these memories that could be very weird, weird labels, weird collections and all of that. But like, first off, collections is way more than that. And I think that a lot of them, if you want them to be utilitarian, you can actually make really great utilitarian collections. I would argue that recent days and travel alone and then people in pets, where you can now make groups. So you can say, I want all the pictures, I want to see all the pictures of these four people together, and make a person group as well. Like, those are utilitarian. Those are, I don't, I mean, you could scroll back through a grid forever in order to find something. You should probably use search, which by the way, is also incredibly better now than it used to be. You can just search for plain text essentially, like, find me all the photos of Jamie on a beach in Hawaii. And you just type it and it comes out. And it's exactly right, which is amazing. That's cool. But, but the like recent days, like, you know, when you get to that open screen, yeah, you can scroll back. It's like, well, when, you know, a few days ago, I did this thing. Well, yeah, or you could look at recent days and go back three days and go, there it is and tap and see all the photos from that day. Like, it is utilitarian. If you want to go beyond that, they're also generating favorites and or generating memories and featured photos and stuff like that. And you can customize it. Like you said, you can pin things, you can move the order around to make it be what you want. But like, Apple is trying to serve two purposes here because Apple feels, and I think they're right, that hiding all of the curation behind a tab and having everybody's main interface be a featureless grid is a mistake. And they're right, it is a mistake because that's not, it's bad user interface. Featureless grid is not the right way to do it. There are use cases where featureless grid is the right thing. It's the utilitarian, I need to go and find that thing I just did. There it is, got it, right? But like, if that's all photos is, there's something wrong because there's so much else going on. And I firmly believe that a huge percentage of regular users never tap on the tabs and are not aware of what Apple is doing behind the scenes to organize their photos. And why do we have hundreds of thousands of photos in our photos library? If it is not to look at them and Apple trying to find ways to get you to look at them again and surface them is part of the reason the app exists. So I'm a big fan. I think this is the right thing to do. And I think if people are grousing about, oh, I only want to see a grid, like how are you using your photos library? And maybe consider looking at the utilitarian features and collections because their recent days alone is very helpful in just coalescing your photos down into the most recent days or travel that coalesces your trips based on your GPS and time data so that you can just say, where is that trip I took? And instead of scrolling back a year to find that trip you took, you look at trips and you go back four and you're like, oh, that trip and you tap on it. It's just, it's the right thing to do. So I think they nailed it. I also like that the greater photos at the top, you can choose how it's displayed, whether you want it to be displayed in day order or added order, like we're added to the library. I love that that you can do that because I would often find myself trying to find an image, but it's like, is it in recents or is it in like my library? But you can just choose and by default, my choice is to, I want to see things as when they were added to my library because that makes biological sense to my mind. And to be clear, photos has been using machine learning for a decade. And none of the features I've mentioned are Apple Intelligence. I think the only Apple Intelligence features and photos are cleanup, which removes things from the background, which works really well. Not perfect, but none of these things are, but it works really well. And there's a like freeform text to make it generate a memory movie and stuff for you. Yeah. That's an AI feature, but the rest of it. The UI, oh my god, the UI for that feature is so good. Yeah, with all the things flying in and the lasers and stuff. Yeah. And it shows you the words it's searching to collate what you're looking for. It's very, very good. Very good. Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to mention the password tab. Oh, yeah, okay. I haven't used, I haven't really paid any attention to it. It's good. I have dealt with performance issues when importing. I have a big one password library. It's like 2,000 passwords and it bugs down. It bugs down. Yeah, well, I don't know. I've been using a long time, right? So it really, it really bugs down. And I think it's a problem. And then deleting them is also really slow. It gets, it gets slow. I think they've got some work to do there. And then I think passwords as an app is so good that what it does, especially if you're coming from one, one password, is reveal all the ways that I think Apple still fails at dealing with this. Because I've been using it for the last few weeks full time. And what I found is then I come to a website that wants to use my credit card and it does not fulfill from Apple for some reason, from the wallet. Because that's not in passwords, it's in the wallet. But if I'm not going to use one password, then I'm using Apple's wallet stuff. And I come to websites where it won't auto-fill or it won't auto-fill the date and it won't auto-fill the little CVV code. And trying to get that out of Apple wallet is awful. And one password does a very good job of brute forcing those kinds of scenarios, I think. And if it fails, use a keyboard shortcut to call up your credit card and grab and copy and paste the dates and codes out of it. And Apple, it's not good enough there. Apple wallet feels very much like they've sort of moved on from auto-filling in the browser because they want you to use Apple Pay. But the fact is the reality, not always using Apple Pay on websites, that's just how it is. And they don't do as good a job of that. And there's other similar data I was asked to put in my driver's license. I was like, "Oh boy." And you can keep that in a locked note or something. But there's other personal information that it doesn't do as good a job about. I also have some import errors that happen to me, where I would try to log into a website using passwords and it would say the password is wrong. And I would look in passwords and it was the wrong password. It was like an old password. But in one password from which it had imported the data is the right password. So I had to do a bunch of cleanup there too. So I guess what I'm saying is it's good, Apple's progress is good, but there are still things that in terms of auto-fill that it needs to do a better job of. Because right now, if I was not also having my one password app is still on my system, I guess what I'm saying is I tried to use passwords all the time. And Apple's adjunct things that are like what's in one password. And I end up having to go back to one password more than I expected, and that's not great. So it's a good step, but I feel like there's more to do there. And the app needs to get a little bit better. But yeah, there's, I don't know if there's anything else. I did, like map notes is nice, map notes has come along over the summer. Yeah, it was kind of bad at the beginning of the summer and it's much better now. So it still has some quirks where you want to use variables and it thinks you're doing something different. And every now and then I write something and it gets a little squiggle under it and I tap to see like what does math notes think this is. And it thinks it's some complex math equation. And I'm like, oh, no, that's just a letter. Why are you doing this? But what I really like, and this also featured that like makes sense to real people, regular non-computerized people. It's cute and it works very well and it's a lot of fun. Yeah, Lauren's response was something like, oh, yeah, trying to do math when you have to type it in with a keyboard is impossible because it's really bad. It's like, this is one of those things that our keyboards weren't really made for and that we all learned how to do the math with our hands and you're writing the equations and all of that. And like, man, that's just does that. It's actually pretty great. So yeah, there's a bunch of good stuff in there. It's just that we're also just waiting for the main event to happen and what's apple intelligence. I have a couple of little bits that you're talking about like great ways to surface your photos. Allow me to extol the virtues of the Apple Watch photos face. It rules. Yes. So it's so good. It's so good. So the way it works is you start on your phone and you pick some photos and you like some 24. You can also pick just like not images but like show me photos of this person. You can do that too. So and what happens is they are analyzed and they are cropped on the phone based on a machine learning analysis of what the key images are that you want to see because obviously a photo is not the same shape as an Apple Watch. So it tries to keep the subjects of your photo in view. It does a pretty good job. It's not perfect but it's better than not doing it at all. Very impressive. And you can also have the time being dynamic. And what that means is it will make the time bigger or smaller based on the content and the spaces around the content in the photos. And again, not perfect but pretty good. For example, there's a photo that's got me and Lauren and there's some space to the side and it wraps the it puts the time on the left wrapped. So it's the first two digits are at the top and the bottom two digits are at the bottom because it knows that's the space it squeezed into. But for another photo, we might be at the bottom and it puts it above and it uses the depth effect to actually like have our heads be a little bit in front of the time. And then another photo might say, I can't do that here and it tries to put it in the least obtrusive place in front of us. But there's a lot of stuff going on for that photos, the new photos face on the Apple Watch. Yeah, my recommendation is if you want to try it out, go in and set it up like you could it has like a few things. It's kind of like the lock screen, right? You can choose pictures of nature, I think pictures of pets, pictures of buildings like architecture and cities, I think they call it and pictures of people. So I set mine up to be like nature, cities and pictures of my wife. And then every day, it gives you a new set of images. So like and then they scroll through throughout the day and you can also just tap on the watch face and it will cycle through them. And it's doing that thing like the lock screen like Jason said like sometimes it's a picture of my wife and the time part of it is behind her head, right? Yeah. And you can also have two complications on it too, which I think is fantastic. So I have the date and I have the weather. And I think now I'm like 90% sure this is going to be my watch face now because it brings me happiness when I look at my watch like it's joyful to me because I get to see these photos of things that I care about. I think this is incredible. They've done a fantastic job with this. It's like they took the lock screen photo shuffle shrunk it down and put it on the watch and I think they did a really good job of it. I like more widgets. There are much more widgets than the Apple watch. I like the suggestions. I like that you can kind of say like don't suggest this to me or do suggest this to me. I think that's pretty good. One of the one of the new widgets that I like a lot is the workout one where you can just start your three most recent workout types just from a widget. I think that's really good. I like the vitals thing. It's just like a cool app to have. And then just because I don't want it to feel left out, we mentioned VisionOS 2 a little bit. The new gestures for going to the home screen, bringing up control center and stuff. It's so much more natural than the way they were doing it before. And then the new environments and stuff like that. VisionOS 2 is a good leap forward and as Jason mentioned earlier, which I agree with, if you have a Vision Pro, you should be on VisionOS 2 because it just makes everything a little bit better. But yeah, this is part one of iOS 18. We'll be doing this all over again, I guess in like a month. And then maybe again, like two months later, as we add in a little examples and thousands of features. But some good stuff out there. Since this is a real retrospective episode as well, because it's our anniversary, I'm going to say I had a late idea when I was trying to figure out what the opening photo for my macOS review was going to be that I really like. And I've mentioned it in passing here before. So I'll just mention it here. It's an Easter egg, but I love it, which is it's macOS Sequoia, which is named after the National Park as we discovered when we were measuring for the California bear trophy. But it's also the tree, the park is named for the tree. Sequoia is the redwood and there's a bunch of different kinds of redwoods. There's giant sequoias and there's the California coastal redwoods. There is a redwood tree in my backyard, a sequoia in my backyard. And I have spent the last 20 years writing and editing OS reviews in the summertime under that tree. That's my favorite place to be to work on stuff in the summertime. I sit out there in a camp chair and I work under the tree. And it's a Sequoia. So my art for the macOS review this time is literally a Mac running the new awesome classic Mac screen saver under the tree. Because it's a Sequoia and it's macOS Sequoia and I don't, you know, it made me happy to be like, yeah, I got it. I know what I'm going to do. I'm going to show the tree. So there it is. Very nice tree, me and my tree. This episode is brought to you by Delete Me. Have you ever wondered how much of your personal data is available on the internet? This is an uncomfortable thing to think about. 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As I have gotten older and as I've been online for longer, I am aware of the huge trail of stuff that Liz left behind me, you know, like various email addresses, maybe places that I put information I didn't expect that it would go. And it just like a tumbleweed and like a snowball just carries on going forever. What I love is now Delete Me is out there tidying up for me. They're getting rid of the stuff that I don't want to be online anymore. And what I really like is I can tell them just remove these things, because they're asked that and things that I do want to remain out there. I'm a professional online. I don't want to not exist on the internet, but there's stuff maybe various email addresses, contact information that I would just prefer to be gone and Delete Me takes care of that for me. Take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Delete Me. Now what a special discount for listeners of this show. Today you can get 20% off your Delete Me plan when you go to joindeleteme.com/upgrade20 and use the promo code upgrade20 at checkout. The only way to get that 20% off is to go to joindeleteme.com/upgrade20 and enter the promo code upgrade20. That is J-O-I-N-D-E-L-E-T-E-M-E.com/upgrade20 promo code upgrade20 thanks to Delete Me for the support of this show and relay. So we mentioned this earlier in the beginning of the show, but it is self-sparey special anniversary here. This has been an anniversary year and this is an anniversary year not just for this show, but for six colors. So 10 years ago, you left IDG and started six colors. We started to upgrade. It's a big day. Congratulations Jason. Literally, upgrade and six colors launched at the same moment because it was when the embargo dropped on the iPhone 6 and 6+ reviews. I mentioned this in a little bit in my post on six colors today about the 10th anniversary, but I got the review units from Apple which I didn't always get and then had to tell my PR person I wouldn't actually be at Macworld when the embargo dropped and it was like, "Well, what are we going to do?" I could have just run away with the phones, but I also felt like that Apple was giving me those phones because I'm me, but also because I had an outlet at Macworld. I could have pressed it, but I didn't want to. So I made a deal with the powers that be at Macworld that I would give them a review for free if they had a prominent link to my reviewers notebook at six colors and a prominent link in my bio at the bottom to six colors because it was really like literally this is going to be viewed by a lot of people who read Macworld and I want them to know that I started a new site. And so that's what we did. So I wrote the review for them which disappeared from the internet and has now in six colors as of last week for, anyway, for reasons. And I don't feel, I feel like I own it because I wrote it for free and they didn't hold, they were no longer holding up their part of the deal, which is they were no longer posting it and linking to my site. So it's like, "All right, well, I'm going to take that one back." Now, and they offered to find it in a repo. So I'll post it. So that going to them, I wrote a substantial sort of like reporter's notebook essentially talking about my experience reviewing those phones. So those were milestone phones too, right? Those are the first much larger iPhone six plus the six plus that was even larger still. And they drove a huge upsurge in iPhone sales. And like, it was a big moment for Apple and the iPhone. That phone was a great success to turn into a future disaster that they were clearing up for many years because those phones were so successful. It really messed up their earnings for a long time to come, right? Because they were this huge, huge bump in sales. That's like, "What's wrong with you? Why can't you do that more?" And they're like, "Look, that was a one time, really a one time thing." Yeah, it is funny that like, obviously, I'm aware of 10 years and like, you know, I've been thinking about it a lot and thinking back to when we started the show and how long ago that feels. But the iPhone six and six plus feel way older than this show in my mind. Like, that they feel so long ago? Like, it almost, I can't believe that like, when we were planning this show, it was like the iPhone five s. Yeah, probably we're using. Yeah. Yeah, it's, it is, it is very strange. So, so yeah, all that stuff had to drop at the embargo time, which was like a month, like, it was an afternoon embargo. I don't really know quite what they were doing there. They've changed it since then. But that was back again, 10 years ago, things were different. And, and so we, you, as I recall, were going to Romania. Is that right? No, I was in Italy. Oh, you're going to Italy. Okay. So you had a vacation. Mm hmm. So what are we going to do with this? And so in the end, like, I went to XOXO festival over that weekend. So it was like before that. So it was like the Thursday or whatever. It was very quick after the aftermath of, of me leaving IDG and all of that, like, almost immediately we had to record and talk about the iPhone, because that was going to be our first episode. And you were going to be gone on vacation. So we prerecorded episode one. Yeah. I posted it. I remember distinctly, right? Because we didn't really, we didn't really know what we were allowed to do. Like it was also incredibly new for both of us, right? Especially me. I'd never been in that experience before. And we kind of tried our best to make it sound like it was happening in the moment it was happening. It was really weird. Because it's like, can't make it sound like I knew about this before. No, it's recording. You're recording something in advance, but acting as if it was done at the release time, right? Which is a, that's a thing, right? But, but that was, and we had no, you know, it was our first episode. So it became this thing of like, well, okay, in the last week, I left my job of 20 years. I started a new website, which again, we were recording before it was up, starting a new website, reviewed these phones, and we are starting this podcast, which we need to explain to people. And all of that happened, like really in the course of a week, all of these things happened. It was a, it was an absolute wild ride. And what I said on my piece on six colors today is, I really, really, really wanted to take some time off. I was burned out, and I wanted to take some time off. And the exact opposite happened, which is the moment I left IDG, I was working on launching my site and writing those reviews and recording with you and getting it all edited and set up so that we could go live. And that, that's just because the iPhone event is too big to ignore. If you're launching yourself into a new world of starting a podcast, starting a website and all of that, the iPhone week is the right time to do it. So, so we did it. And I didn't get that, didn't get that little break that I always envy people, were they're like, I'm going to take some time and then do my next thing. I'm like, okay, must be nice, must be nice. Yeah, I always find that weird too. It's like, well, wait, what are you going to do? You know, like, I want to be somewhere. Yeah, I mean, yeah, it'll be nice to take that break. But that didn't happen. So yeah, so upgrade one ended up being this really interesting combination of it being a six color site announcement, a new podcast explanation, and iPhone embargo review all in one. So put out the call for some questions from Upgradians. And I've got a selection of questions from our listeners who wanted to get some of some of the thinking about us from reflection first comes from Aaron. Looking back, how have your interests in the tech products and companies that you cover changed? And how has this impacted the structure of the show? I honestly, I think we did a lot of hedging at the beginning, because we weren't quite sure. Again, Apple was in a very different place when we conceived to this show. iPhone had not exploded to the degree that it would with a six. It was still sort of the size of Steve Jobs's Apple. And now it's the size of Tim Cook's Apple, right? It has been a huge change in what Apple is and what it does. And I think we were unsure where we would go. And so the initial description of the show was very broad. I think at the time, I was thinking, I would be interested in like Amazon, Echoes, and what Google was doing, and the Nest, and the Kindle, and all of these like things that do interest me. But I was thinking, okay, well, honestly, you can't predict the future. Let's not limit ourselves, right? I think that was the idea, which is, well, let's not limit ourselves. This could be, we'll see where it goes. And over the course of time, I think what happened is, I could look at this as a failure, but I don't think it was. I think it was a, I think it was dealing with the cards we were dealt, which is Apple exploded and got so big in so many different areas that a lot of that other stuff that I was, wasn't, in many cases, is still, I'm still interested in, got pushed the periphery because the concept of covering what Apple was doing in 2014 and in 2024 or even 2018, I feel like is totally different, that Apple just went in in so many different directions that it became, upgrade became more of an Apple-focused podcast than I expected it to be when we started. I thought we would need to spread a little further and wider, and I think the truth is we could have, but we didn't, I mean, Apple just, there was so much that I think we didn't need to, and that the Apple, the path Apple was on was so interesting that we needed to follow it, if that makes sense. Yeah, I think, I mean, I actually think we could probably take a new cracker or show description anyway, I think it's still too broad considering where we are now, but I think that's the thing of like, over these last 10 years, it's like, if you cover Apple, if they're your beat, there's more than ever stuff to talk about, there's more stuff than there's ever been to talk about. So, you know, I think that we both have a, keep a healthy interest in all technology, and we bring it to the show, but it always comes second to if there is big news with Apple to talk about, right? Because that, that is the bread and butter of the show. Yeah, and Apple has imprinted itself. I mean, Apple cast such a shadow over the tech world, it would be different if Apple was like off in a niche somewhere and was super weird, and this podcast was like, oh, I guess the rest of the world is happening, but we're only really focused on this corner case with Apple. But that's just not the case. Apple is huge. It is in the biggest, or one of the biggest companies in the world. And people really, you know, people really care about it. It affects the rest of the tech industry. It affects the rest of the world. So, so yeah, I think that that has led us in that, in that direction. Our interests are broader than that. But again, I think that we would show it more if Apple was more esoteric than it is, but it's really central. So it's, it's hard to avoid it. And what you said about Apple being your beat, I mean, that's the truth of it. Leaving IDG, the biggest change for me, and this is still the case, is I used to try to think about Apple as our beat and think holistically about how we were going to literally cover everything with a staff. And as a human being, a single person and even working with Dan on six colors, working with you on upgrade, like Apple is actually too big for even it to be your beat. I mean, that's, that's the thing you ended up having to choose what in Apple is your beat because Apple is too much. There is just too much of it. Jonathan asks, you've both spoken about being so happy that the other person wanted to do a show with each other. So we both said that about each other. But I'd like to know what was it that made the potential of doing a show together so exciting for you both? You tell me, Mike. You're Jason Snow. Oh, ha ha. No, seriously, I was looking for there. But that was the reason for me. Like, you know, like, even 10 years ago, I was in a very different spot to where I am now. And there's a question a little bit later on where I might talk about that a little bit more. But my kind of position in our, in our community was, was different. And I was someone that was, I was starting to kind of establish myself a little bit. But there were certain people who sat at the top of the Apple focus tech community that were a part of, right? That all of our listeners are a part of, you know, but you've got the content creators that we call now, but writers as we call them then that sat at the top of that tree, you know, it, and you were one of these people. You always have been, right? Like, Jason Snow was like one of the people that everybody knew. Jason knew everyone, you know, like, Jason's party at WWDC was one of the hot tickets that you could get. Like, I remember getting my first invite to that party. And I nearly did a backflip. I was so excited. Like, it was huge for me to have one just to know you, right? And to be friends of you was exciting enough. But to have gotten the opportunity then to be in a position where I would be your, your, like, your equal, right? That we would host a show together was just so incredible to me. And like, you, I always loved when I got to hear you talk about technology and was always kind of sad about the fact that I didn't get to hear you talk about it enough, right? Because you were kind of in the corporate structure that you were in. And so, like, yeah, I sure was right. And, and this was like the thing, this conversation, this famed conversation and the history of upgrade when me and you sat down for like an hour in Ireland, at the all conference and kind of spoke about all of this stuff. You know, like, I remember saying then, like, just thinking how incredible it would be to hear just a tech podcast, like, the ones that we do with you on it. But for me, like, just what an honor it would be to be able to do it with you, because you are a historic figure in the history of covering Apple. You are, like, whether you like it or not, right? Like, you were at the iPod event, right? Like, you have been through the history of this industry, right? Like, you have been there. And like, that is an absolute honor for me to be able to, to have gotten the opportunity to do the show with you. And it continues to be an honor for me today. So there you go. Thank you. I didn't mean to call you old. Yeah. Oh, my hip. So the, so that little conversation, that was in the spring, right? Of 2014, I think. Yeah. And that means it came after I had already attempted to escape my job once. And I know I've said this before, but it's like, well, you say you tried to quit and they didn't let you. What is that? It's like, well, I tried to quit. I had nowhere else to go. I just couldn't do the job anymore. I was miserable. And they said, no, no, no, no, no. We just changed our management structure. There's a new person in charge. It's going to be better. Please stay. Please stay. And I was like, all right. Okay. And I was, you know, because again, I got up the courage to, to quit and not have anywhere else to go. And I wanted to start things on my own. But it was, you know, you get, you waver, you waver. And to have the full court press, very charming, very flattering from the, the people at IDG to stay, we got this new guy. We're putting him in charge. It's going to be better. And like, that was all, that was all fine. And I regret, I regret not actually just saying, well, no. But in the end, it worked out, I guess, in the sense that seriously, eight months later, the new guy who was going to fix everything got laid off, got fired, the president of the, the new president of the group got, got cut. So how, how well did that work? Well, I got severance out of it, because I told them I wasn't really interested in going, going through these shenanigans again. So I got more runway to start my own thing. But I say this because I had spent a great deal of time thinking about what I wanted to do. And when I saw you at all, and we had that conversation, I had already been thinking about that a lot. And, and, and in this era, so this is the era where you guys are doing the prompt on five by five, it was an era where hyper critical had just finished. And I had been listening, I don't even know what was happening with a talk show, but I had been listening to this model of tech podcast, where there were people talking, you know, it was like somebody who's a writer, reporter, whatever, talking to somebody else about it, and you build a podcast around it. And with envy, right? I mean, I, and during fireball too, I was like, ah, I could do that, I'd love to do that. But I've got my corporate job. And that's, that's fine. So I've been thinking about that a lot. And so when we got to the point where, you know, we had that good conversation, I had definitely been thinking about these sorts of things. We got to the, the fall. And I realized that I was going to be going out on my own. You guys had that point started relay. I had, and again, I've been listening to the prompt and I was listening connected. And that was my, my identifier. And I think the reason that I approached you, and not Stephen, I could have approached was in part because we had had that conversation at all. And in part, because I felt like we were different enough. Yeah. In a way that Stephen was a little more aligned with me, actually, right? That I thought that it might be a better, a better combination, because, because, you know, otherwise, Stephen and I would just talk about performance all the time. And, you know, it would have been, that would have been canceled after like 10 episodes of the performance podcast. So instead, I don't know. And I think we had a good, I, when we had that conversation, we made a good connection. Anyway, so I, I definitely part of it was just me thinking, I liked that you guys were starting relay. I wanted to do that two person podcast with continuity and follow up. I wanted all of that. And it just seemed like the, the best fit. So you and Stephen ended up being one of the very first people to hear that I was leaving. Yep. Because we needed to plan it if we were going to do it. This episode is brought to you by our friends over at Backblaze. Backblaze are the folks that look after your digital data with their unlimited computer backup for macOS and Windows for just $99 a year. So you can protect all of your data automatically, never having to think about it. It's not just for personal use. Backblaze is great for businesses, protect the whole team's data through essentially manage administrative console. It's easy to deploy across multiple workstations for silent and link based deployment options. And the enterprise control add on includes granular access permissions, advanced single sign on options, group management controls, and compliance support. You're in safe hands of Backblaze. They really know their stuff. They've been recommended by the New York Times magazine. 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I love that I have access to them via the iOS app if I need them to. It's an absolutely essential thing for me. I put it on my family's computers too. I love it. Go to backblaze.com/upgrade so they'll know that you came to them from the show. No continues to support this show, which we'd appreciate. Backblaze have restored over 55 billion files for their customers. Don't be that person and forget to back up your important files. Receive a fully featured no risk free trial at backblaze.com/upgrade. Go there. Have a play around. Start protecting yourself from a data disaster. Don't put it off. Start today. Thanks to Backblaze for the support of this show and all a relay FM. I said the FM. Excuse me. I'm thinking old school, you know? Yeah. Let's hear it. Switch on. Switch on. Jerry says, are there any episodes that you have produced that get me started with how to make a podcast of my own? And I knew we had done this and I ended up finding it. It was episode 200. So a very long time ago now in July 2018 because we were celebrating our 200th episode by answering some questions from listeners and also talking about how we podcast, why we podcast that kind of stuff. I have no doubt that that stuff is very relevant today except for every time we say Skype, replace it with Zoom and you'll be good. Yeah. Adam asks, is there anything you miss about being a smaller company or maybe reframe that from when we started to now? Are there things that you miss from the earlier days of six colors to now? Oh, I mean, six colors is not that different because relay has grown. But you know, six colors is what it was. I mean, I, it's me and Dan. And that's nice because one person's side is harder and it's great that Dan is there because we also have all these other things that we're doing. So I really appreciate that Dan Moran, who, you know, were for me for ages at Macrolled. And, you know, it is, I don't know if he was always part of my plan or not. But I think my plan was really to give all of my friends who no longer had a place to post things on the internet to give them a place to do this. Like Dan Frakes, before he got a job, he posted a couple of things and Philip Michaels posted something and I mean, like there were people in those early days. But Dan wanted to make a go of it kind of like on his own and he was willing to do his tech stuff at six colors. He did a bunch of others blogging in other places. But so, you know, the shape of it is not that different from the start. Like I said earlier, the big change is scope that my old job was thinking big picture and having a team of people and trying to cover everything. And I think we did a great job. I think we assembled a great team. We had a lot of really amazing writers and editors and Macrolled and the Macworld website, especially like we really got to cover Apple kind of in great detail with a lot of different angles. Being just me or just me and Dan, like the scope completely changed. And so we found our way and all of that. But it doesn't other than the fact that we did a membership and added a community and that has changed the feel of it a little bit because there's now like the six colors readers are no longer theoretical. They're actual people in a discord. And before that, a Slack, RIP to the Slack, but we moved into discord. Anyway, that's changed. But like, I would say that the six color side of it is is not that different in the sense that it's just a place for me to post my things that I write. And it continues to be that relay. I feel like this is a better question. So what do you think? What are you feeling right now? I mean, being a smaller company is nice because you have less to do like less in theory. Being a smaller company means that you have like less things that you need to manage. But what has actually happened is as we got bigger, Stephen and I brought in people to do more jobs. So like if relay was smaller, I'd probably be busier. So I actually, I don't miss being a smaller company than we are now. I mean, the bigger something gets the more pressure it can bring, which is that but that just comes with the territory. That's kind of what you pay for success, I suppose, in a way. So I don't miss being a smaller company at all. You know, there are things I miss from when we started, right? Like there was like a lot of excitement and there was always new things happening, which was fun. And like a lot of those new things happening when new shows, right? Like in our first year or two, we were launching stuff left right and center and they were really exciting projects with loads of really exciting people. And we just decidedly do less of that now because it's just not the mode that relay is in as a business. It's not where we are right now. We're much more in a way that I've been trying to phrase it is, I just, we are like listener first and those listeners are the ones that we have. Like I'm really focused now. That's the same for this show too. It's the same for all of my shows on really serving the people that are here and like trying to give those people what they want rather than just like trying to find new people endlessly and like tailoring and ruining things for that. Like for example, I think a good thing of that is the video that we do. There a logical way to do this is to for me and Jason to see each other, right? And like that is the logical way to make a video show. But we don't want to make the show worse for the people that have been listening to it for 10 years by now, like instead of me describing to Jason what something looks like, I show him. And that is what naturally would happen if we were looking at each other. But that is doing a disservice to our existing listeners. I don't think that that is listener first. So we produced a video version of the show in a very different way to have produced how other people might or how we would naturally to make sure that we're doing all that stuff. So yeah, I don't miss being smaller. It's less kind of like, oh, what could happen next, but I actually think I'm good with that. I think I'll play with it. Yeah, something you said that you know, I wanted to mention the when you're starting out, and I know I talked about this before, and I did a whole episode of focused about this as a guest star. But when you're starting out, you do everything, because who else is going to do it? So if you can do it, you do it. And that means you can do it, or you learn to do it, and then you do it. The thing about, and again, it's six dollars bigger, I don't know, but like we have revenue, I know we have a business, I know what the money is in the business. Day one, we had nothing. And so you do everything. Now we've got more of a business. One of the things that's allowed me to do is realize that there are things that I was doing not because, and this is important for anybody else who's in similar circumstances. I was doing it because I could, not because it was a thing that I had to do, because me doing it was the secret sauce. And I work in a business where there is a certain percentage of what I do where me doing it is the secret sauce, right? I am a content creator, I am a writer, I am a podcaster, I am a producer of podcasts, I have ideas for things that we're going to do on this show, or on the podcastathon, or on the incomparable. I have ideas of that that's part of the mix. I have strategy of like, where do I want to go? Is there something I want to change? It's business strategy that because it's my business, I need to do. It's a thing that has to be me. But there was this huge chunk of things that I only was doing because I'd been doing them and not because I needed to do them and not because I added the magical element. And so I did spend some time up two, three years ago finding people to work with who I could pay to do those things. And that gave me more time back to have more energy and more time to do the things that I actually need to do that are things that are for me and not things that anybody could do. Because, again, going back to that, I'm just one person thing. Like, if you're just one person, and I'm sure that somebody like Marcus Brownlee experiences this on an even greater scale, right, because he's got such a successful business. But it's the same idea, which is 100% of his time should be focused on the things that only he can do. And he can do everything that people in his business do. He can do it. But he doesn't need to. And so we hire staff to shoot and edit and all these things. And even somebody like Quinn, it's Snazzy Labs, it's the same thing, right? A lot of content creators can do everything or almost everything. But at a certain point, there's only so much a single human being can do in a day. You need to focus on the things that you absolutely need to do and let other people be your teammates who can do those other things and work with you. And that, for me, is the biggest thing about being a more established company. And I don't miss it. Because I was very much chief cook and bottle washer kind of person at the beginning because everybody in a small business is that. And I know, really, it's the same thing. You grow over time. And one of the things that allows you to do is work with other people to do those other tasks. And then you can focus more on the stuff you need to. And that's been a big change. Christian asks, have I only been listening to the show for about four years, which means I've missed out on over half of upgrade? Well, Christian, it is all out there. I wouldn't recommend it, but like, you can always go back. What are some of the things that have stuck around since the beginning? Are there any bits or segments that have been dropped over the years? So I did some thinking about this. So a lot of our special episodes started in year one, the drafts, upgradeees, holiday special. They all started like within the first year. We dropped out some segments like upstream because it became its own show. And we had the summer of fun that came in at some point. That wasn't that was in after the first couple of years, because we were realizing how hard it was to come up to talk about in the summer. And I feel like we used to have more guests on for timeless topics throughout the year, rather than what it is now, which is guests typically are covering somebody's vacation. So I think that kind of changes that we've had. Right. I mean, yeah, there was there was an early time where I was like, let's get Scott McNulty on to talk about the Kindle, right? We know three. Yeah, we don't really do that anymore. But we were trying to figure it out. What's funny is for a show that's got segments, we called them verticals at the beginning, right? Because I was laughing at the idea that everybody in the media business calls things that are focused on a particular topic of vertical. And so then we did a lot of sort of jokes about verticals. But we did build up segments and ask upgrade and follow up and all of those things. Oh my gosh, yeah, Oscar upgrade. Don't forget, we created that. All right. A segment of sending your questions is called ask something. It came from this show. Follow up, we did not create. Oscar upgrade, we create. Follow up, we did not create. But so I'd say a lot of it was there. But we definitely things, there's stuff that you think is going to be a thing. And then it's not a thing. And you just drop it and you move on. And that definitely continues to happen. But in the early days, yeah, there was a lot more experimenting with, you know, again, you're like, what's the show? Are we going to bring guests on to talk about particular topics? And now, you know, the answer to that now is essentially no, unless it's a special episode, or somebody is not around. We don't do that. I think a lot of that comes from me. This is my own personal taste. I tend in my podcast listening to not enjoy guests in the regular show format. Sure. Sure. Because I think that you get joy and like you're attached to the hosts of the show, you just want to hear them. So that's what I prefer. And so I kind of try and bring that to most of my shows, to be honest. And really, we only have guests where you need to. I agree. I definitely have that on some of my podcasts where there's a guest episode. I'm like, you know, I'm not as into it because I'm into the hosts talking to each other. And that's what I like. Also, keep in mind at this point that, you know, early on in our run, I was doing clockwise. And I heard from somebody the day who said, I didn't realize Jason used to do clockwise. I was like, oh, man, oh my God, it's been so long. I'm the co-creator and original host of original co-host of clockwise with Dan. We did that together. We came up with a format together. We stole it basically from IDG under their noses. They gave us a permission to do it. And then executives regretted it later, but it's too bad. We were out the door, don't try to stop us. But that's two guests every week. And then when Steve and I did download, we had guests every week. And let me tell you, nothing makes you not want to schedule guests, like scheduling guests regularly. So upgrading, not having guests is not only good content-wise, but also I was at a point early on where I realized very quickly that the last thing I wanted to do was schedule guests. And Zach has made a point in the discord, which I think will clarify a slight addendum that I have to my point with Zach says, I think the Vergecast has done guests on the show while bringing in some other journalists for some segments. But it's like, similarly, I think another relay host dropping into the show is less disruptive. For me, it's like, when somebody comes into the show and they don't really have a rapport with the hosts because they're like a subject area expert or what it like, that kind of stuff for me is like, we're kind of breaking things a little bit. So I just prefer in general, get a lot of emails from those people and their PR people saying, Oh, we sure do. Oh, Jason, I was so excited today. I was so excited today because I thought I was getting like an email that I'd be happy with for the rest of all time. So I'm going to basically I'm skimming this email. It's like one of these like, Hi, I'm such and such person. I do this and this and this. And like, and I'm skimming it and it says Johnny, I was like, Oh, my God, it's happening. But no, it wasn't that Johnny. I was a guest on another podcast and they wanted us to drop it into our feed. There are people. What? But yeah, this happens all the time. I get these like, we're gonna do a feed drop with this show. No, I don't ever want to do that. I don't ever want to do that. Like, we have gotten these requests from podcasts that you listen to listeners, right? And I will never do this because I think it is a terrible idea. But I thought that someone was trying to bring Johnny Ive on the show, but that did not happen. Same question from David. This is to Jason. Mike's been covering Apple for 10 or so years now. How do these years compare to your first 10? Well, so the difference is my first 10 would have been 93 to 2003. So my experience was weird dying apple at death store. Steve Jobs comes back, brings out the iMac, opens a bunch of retail stores, brings out the iPod on the way up. That is my first 10 years. Because I don't, you said, Oh, you go back in history, but it's like, I was just somebody, I got a contact about like somebody doing a podcast about the day that the Mac was launched, the original launch of the Mac. And they said, Oh, you seem to have been covering this. And I said, just to be clear, I was 13 years old. Just to be clear, I didn't touch a Mac until like several years later and didn't buy a Mac until the what until like the 90s, the early in like 1990s. So no, I'm not, I don't go that far back. So my first 10 years was very much, I have made a horrible mistake doing, because I love to Apple stuff, love the Mac, doing something I love in media about something I love while it's dying. Like what, because it's like the triple whammy, it's like, I made a bad career decision. It's going to lead me to cover things that I don't care about because I like the Mac. My preferred platform is dying, the company that makes it is falling apart. Like it was grim, folks, it was real grim. And then like a dream. I mean, seriously, if you had told me in the depths of 1997, like, Oh, no, no, here's what's going to happen next. Now that they just bought next from Steve Jobs, right, like Steve Jobs is around, I'm like, yeah, I know he's around, but he's like, honor him. And then this person from the future would be like, no, no, no, no, you don't understand. Steve Jobs is going to take over and he's going to turn the Mac around and he's going to make it successful. And people are going to like, be wowed by those products. And he's going to open a bunch of retail stores. I'm like, well, that sounds like a bad idea. It's like, no, no, it's a good idea. Because they're also going to release a music, a portable music player, a digital music player. I'm like, are you high right now future person? Are you crazy? That will never end up like, no, no, no, listen to me. By the time you've been in this business a decade, Apple will be on the upswing. It'll be making lots of money. It'll be a lifestyle brand. It'll have cool music and ads. It'll have retail stores everywhere. And people will come in the retail store to buy the little music player and they'll see the Mac and they'll fall in love with it and they'll be like, Oh, I guess I might maybe I should buy a Mac too. And everything is about to change. And then I won't even tell you what happens in the next decade, but it gets even wilder then. I tell you, that person, I would not ascribe 1% chance that they were right. Like it was not good. It was bad times. It was very, very bad. So the unlikely thing that they had the comeback story and that it began in 97 and just sort of went from there where at the end of my first decade covering Apple, they were basically on the upswing and headed for, we didn't know it at the time, but they were in iPod heaven. And the retail was really growing until the Mac was really going and OS 10 was out. And that changed the game for the Mac a lot too. And then, you know, upswing to the iPhone eventually, you in the last 10 years, have we talked about it, have experienced the inflationary period of Apple where it went from being Steve Jobs's company to being a Colossus, striding the world, when where Tim Cook is referred to in journalism circles sometimes as being one of America's ambassadors to China in the sense that when relations between the two countries are not always that great, Tim Cook has good relationships with people in China and understands them. Like, that's bananas that fact that Apple's, most of Apple's feuds are not with its competitors, but with countries and regional governments. Like, that's what I think that's what's happened in the last 10 years. So it's really dramatically different. And there's a decade in between there that set the stage for that. But like, this has been, I think, upgrade has really been the chronicle for the last 10 years of what has happened to Tim Cook's Apple, where everything is the stage set by the decisions that Steve Jobs made early on in his return to Apple and in the launch of the iPhone. But like, the moment where the iPhone really kind of blew it out and caught fire and was just not literally caught fire, I keep saying the iPhone's exploded, people are going to take me out of context. That's not what I mean, it's metaphor people. Breaking iPhone 16. So it's a, for me, that's the story of the last 10 years is just like Apple has gotten so much bigger and so much more influential and powerful because of this huge growth in primarily the iPhone, but then services on top of that and the Apple Watch and the AirPods on top of that. And it's just kind of like, it is just a very different company than it was 10 years ago. What do you think? I mean, I couldn't agree more. Like, you know, it depends on where you caught my 10 years from. It's either the 10 years from when I started, but I started at the iPad, right? When I first started podcasting, it's in the iPad have been released, or you start it from 10 years from now, and it starts with the biggest, most successful iPhone in contextually the most successful iPhone in history, right? And it's like, yeah, you know, it is a very, very different time, but there is interesting parallels, right? We're like looking at Steve Jobs and like his rise through everything that he did and changed the company in the ways that he wanted to change it, like over that longer period of time. And then you have the same Tim, right? Like Tim took over the company worked out what he was doing, and it started changing out more than the way that he wants. Very different times, but the ideas remain the same. I wanted to very quickly, if you've listened this far, I wanted to just mention upgrade plus again. So I think this is a good time to talk about it. We have a membership program, you can go to get@gradeplus.com and you can learn more. We mentioned it a lot, but in the last five years, upgrade plus has become an incredibly important thing to the both of us, because of how it represents how we make a living, where membership has become the stable bedrock on which the show can be built from. Advertising goes up and down. Sometimes we don't have as many advertisers. Sometimes our advertisers don't pay as much as other times of the year, but our membership remains consistent. And we would love for you to consider becoming a member. You get longer, add free versions of the show every week, you get access to the relay discord, you get access to other perks for being a relay listener, including additional bonus content. But for the purpose of this conversation, one I'm saying right now, you support the show. It helps the show continue. Me and Jason want to continue doing this show for as many more decades as you'll allow us. And I would really love it if you would consider becoming a member and supporting the show. You can find out more by going to get@gradeplus.com and you can sign up today. And it would mean an awful lot to the two of us, I'm sure. Right, Jason? Yes, absolutely. And it's been a great thing. Like I said, about six colors, the same goes for upgrade. It has been great to have that as part of this journey and has allowed us to continue doing what we do. Yep. All right, so that's going to be it for this week's episode. If you would like to send us feedback, some follow up or questions, you can always go to upgradefeedback.com and you can send those in. I guess next week's episode, we're going to be reviewing the iPhone 16. It's a banger. We had new iPhones in hand, hopefully. And we'll be together. And we'll be together in person. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. You can check out Jason's work and Dan's work. There's a bunch of articles about reviews and stuff over on six colors.com. And you can hear him on the comparable.com and here on Relay, you can listen to my podcast here on Relay and check out my work cautexbrand.com. Jason is @jsnell. I'm @imike. You can find clips at the show on TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube where we're @upgraderelay. Thank you to our members who support us at UpgradePlus. Thank you to our sponsors. This week is to find people over at Backblaze, delete me and FitBud. They help make the show possible. Please go to stu.org/relay and consider donating to our campaign for this year. And don't forget this Friday, September 20th at 12 p.m. to 12 a.m. U.S. Eastern Time, you can catch the sixth annual podcastathon broadcasting live from the campus of St. Jude. Me and Jason will be there. Stephen will be there. Case of this will be there. Kathy Campbell is going to be there. It's going to be an incredible time. I hope that you join us. And I will say right now, more than ever, thank you for listening to this show. Whenever you started, we appreciate you. This is why we do this. We do this for you, and we hope that you will always enjoy it. Until next week, take a look at this stuff. Goodbye, Mike Hurley. [BLANK_AUDIO]
All of Apple's new operating systems are here, and we discuss our favorite new features--and acknowledge the elephant waiting in the wings. We also spend a little time celebrating the tenth birthday of both Upgrade and Six Colors.
