Talkin' Ball with Pat Leonard

Staredowns, Browns and Giant Stakes: Brian Daboll's reaction to Giants' 0-2 hole with Cleveland on deck

Broadcast on:: 17 Sep 2024
Audio Format:: other

How is Brian Daboll handling the Giants' disappointing start with jobs at stake for GM Joe Schoen, Daboll and quarterback Daniel Jones? New York Daily News NFL columnist Pat Leonard is here to break it down LIVE with fans @Bleav during halftime of the Eagles-Falcons Monday Night Football game. Pat answers all fan questions and comments to provide a full picture of the team's roster and outlook heading into the Giants' Week 3 road trip to Cleveland. SUBSCRIBE to the @PLonNFL YouTube page to get the latest Giants updates and news delivered directly to you, and to participate in regular LIVE Q&A chats with Pat. Purchase a Super Chat or Super Sticker to have your comments elevated to the top of the feed and have Pat answer your question FIRST! Watch the full video of this @Bleav podcast on Pat's YouTube Channel. Find Pat also on 'X' (@PLeonardNYDN), Instagram (@PLonNFL) & TikTok (@PLonNFL). Talkin' Ball with Pat Leonard is brought to you by MyBookie. It’s MyBookie’s 10th year anniversary, and they’re rolling out the red carpet for bettors, including Risk-Free Thursdays and weekly no-sweat bets all season long. Use the promo code 'PATSPICKS' here to get your first deposit of $50 or more matched 100% up to $1,000 plus a $10 casino chip. Make your Football season a winning season with MyBookie! Bet Anything, Anytime, Anywhere. Talkin' Ball with Pat Leonard is also sponsored by @BoomChaga and @Estate98Coffee. BOOM Chaga Mushroom SuperDrink is a natural extract loaded with anti-inflammatory, immune-boosting antioxidants and heart-healthy compounds. Go to BoomChaga.com and use the code TALKINBALL25 to get a 25% discount on your first Subscribe and Save Order. Estate98 is an all-natural, specialty coffee with no sugar that is convenient for the on-the-go coffee drinker. Go to estate98.com/talkinball to get a special buy one, get one free deal.

All right welcome everybody another episode of Talkin Ball Live with Pat Leonard is here Monday night football going on as we speak Phil Philadelphia Eagles against the Atlanta Falcons. Tom Barkley's next chance to try to show New York what they are missing, but enough for us to focus on here and now as Giants fans as a Giants beat writer and NFL columnist for the New York Daily News here. I'm talking here on the talking ball with Pat Leonard YouTube channel P on NFL, and on the believe network, lots to discuss, lots to go over as far as Brian Dables response to the O and to hold at the Giants face with the Cleveland Browns on deck. We had a kicker workouts for the Giants with Graham Ganno out at least a few weeks according to the head coach. So a lot to break down, a lot to digest, wanted to start by discussing Dable and the icy glares and stare downs at the press conference on Sunday night at Washington, because I know that I kind of went viral without posting anything crazy or trying to just purely based on asking a press conference question and receiving the stare down from Brian Dable. You have to understand something interesting which is the stare down did not start when I asked about Brian Dables job security I got a stare down earlier in the press conference first, just purely asking a question about Graham Ganno and whose decision it was to make that call to not bring up a Jude McTaminney to not have another kicker active in the event that he got hurt. I was asking him for a follow up he said put it all on me. And then I was as I was trying to get to the crux of the matter another reporter interrupted me and cut me off. So I kind of went over like gave the reporter a look like come on I got to finish this up. And at that point, Dable looks at me and just glares at me the whole time he's being asked a question by somebody else isn't even looking at them is staring at me. And so that happened about three or four times throughout the press conference, which was tense, but listen, this is a professional environment, and I want something to be absolutely clear. When I ask a head coach or somebody in the locker room on a team whether it's a player, when you're asking them about their job about their livelihood. That is no small matter right. So when you're doing it, you know, some people say oh that you're trying to get the coach fired right or oh yeah I can see what direction you're trying to go in. That type of question, you can't ask that question genuinely unless you have information that backs up that it's necessary at that time right. So that question is purely coming from the point of view of a reporter and a columnist and somebody who's been around both the giants and the NFL for long enough to understand when urgency rises, who is talking about it. The fact that let's say Debo and the players are feeling that he, like I'm well aware of the locker room being, you know, if not impacted then definitely aware of how jobs are on the line and people are on the chopping block and all of those realities right that the team doesn't want to talk about consistently publicly it's not in their interest to right of course it's not. But those are still relevant conversations and relevant questions that have to be asked because the fact of the matter is this is not year, this is not second game of year one right this is year three of a process. And the product you're seeing on the field now is born out of the decisions and the operation of the last three years, and certainly mistakes such as running a large part of the staff out of the building with this function last year, in particular in the defensive side of the ball, where it looks like they really lack a schematic advantage now, not to mention the personnel side of things with a running game is really a concern on the defensive end. And Brian Debo actually interestingly talked a lot about that, the running game and it's and the lack of tackling and fundamentals from his defense coming out of that Washington game but interestingly enough had a lot to say about how much improved he thought his offense was and listen two things can be true here. Number one, he's right Daniel Jones played well, the running game was functional after it was not very functional in the opener against Minnesota Vikings of course they got in the end zone three times after not getting in the end zone at all in the opener. So of course the arrow pointing up compared to week one, but just interesting because also selfishly listen if Brian Debo is and we know he is making a case for his job right here now. The offense's performance as with him as the full time play caller now after yanking it back and forth last season, that is ultimately the operation of the team and the operation of the offense. That's really what's going to determine and seal his fate one way or another, right. And, you know, the fact that they scored 18 points. You're not really beating your chest over that but at the same time you know that you didn't have the ball much because your defense was on the field a lot. All that said, tables response right now that I see appears to be he's trying to pump the tires of the offense get give them some confidence coming out of a game where they finally made, you know, a handful of strides here and there although it's far from good enough. And then on the flip side the players Bobby O'Karricki Andrew Thomas, some of their leaders were on a conference call today. And Andrew Thomas in particular talked about how tables message to the team and their team meeting when they first came in today on Monday here September 16 at the start of week three. The tables message was that you have to look in the mirror, and you have to point a thumb and not a finger right so you have to on all sides of the ball, determine what you can do better and not pay attention to anything else take accountability for your actions That was a problem last year with Debo and the staff, where it felt like there were fingers being pointed all around and it wasn't collaborative and it wasn't the thumb it was the finger too too often too many times which is kind of how some of those problems started you could go to my cap on the offensive side of the ball as well and the dysfunction going on with the staff. You know if Debo is learning on the job that's a good thing but now his team has to put this in motion but also take his lead you have to lead by action there. If you're the head coach and you know Debo not really answering to the Graham Godot decision post game. The fact of the matter is that was an incompetent lack of understanding of game situation and decision making from Debo in that moment. You either have confidence that Jamie Gillen is going to be your kicker if Graham Godot goes down or you don't and you bring somebody up or onto your roster as a fail safe. You don't say we trust Jamie Gillen and then after he misses an extra point your team can't kick the rest of the game and it essentially costs you a win. Not to mention was talking to some people in the NFL today for as far as like game management is concerned something Debo has struggled with in the past. Talk to some you know analytics people and game management folks in the NFL that I trust and they were watching the commanders last drive and they thought it was interesting that the Giants didn't intentionally jump off sides. The commanders had second and two at the Giants 20 35 yard line it's around a minute left I think a minute of five or something like that or maybe a little bit more. And it was second and two at the Giants 35 now in that moment. Analytics would tell you that if you jump off sides there intentionally and give them the first down of course that makes the field goal that they have they're already in range that gives them a little bit of a better chance at a field goal there. What it does do is you're listening they're already in field goal range. It allows you at that point to save all three of your timeouts and if you can stop them for three straight runs and prevent them getting a first down. Then you can use all three timeouts they kick the field goal and then you have some time on the clock to get the ball back. Now it might not have mattered right you could jump off sides intentionally give them the first down and then they could still just you know ram the ball right up the field down your throat as they were for that drive prior to that and run out the clock and kick the field goal and it still could have happened right. The point is game management wise, there was a way that I've taught some people around the league about there was a way where the Giants could have given them a themselves a chance to get the ball back there which would be to jump off sides on second and two and save that time out that they use there. And so then you have three timeouts for three stops three timeouts commanders field goal ball ball back to your Giants offense that has had a lot of success. I see all the questions and the comments rolling in thank you so much everybody. I will get to them starting with the first super chat I saw comment coming in here from Lou Mateo I will get to that in one second. 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Way more content coming first down with Benny Fowler should be uploaded any minute talking about the week two games and digesting that also new creator series episode coming in another week or two look for that. Our first one with authentic really hit was fantastic and you know overall just really glad that we can get back on here on Monday night as I kind of have the Eagles Falcons in the corner of my eye here. Just keeping an eye on Sequan and the Falcons actually leading right now with seven and a half minutes to go in the third quarter. But really glad to get back on here with you guys because we kind of got short got cut short after the Washington game I think we did like an hour and a half or so of talking ball post game live from northwest stadium after Giants commanders. But we kind of left some meat on the bone there digesting the game talking about day bowl talking about the Giants so I'm looking forward to getting it into it here. Alright, Lou Mateo sets the example thank you Lou guys just so you know I'm sure everybody here who's a regular or is familiar with how we do things. If you purchase a super chat or super sticker I will answer your question or address your comment immediately or next in the queue from what I'm talking about then. It's a great way to make sure you get addressed and also to support the channel. You don't have to purchase though a super chat or super sticker to ask a question or drop you know to have me address your opinion. You can just put it in the queue. And then once we get way too busy with to the point where I can't get all the way to the bottom. And then that you know we end up in a position where it's like okay, not going to get to that so drop a little coin and I'll get to your question. Or it just has to be safe for the next one but I do my best to get to the mall. I will do my best to get to the mall now. And here we go we're going to kick it off with Lou Mateo Lou says. I hope all as well you too Lou great seeing you. He says thank you for asking the hard questions do you feel able is over his head with being a coach and coordinator. Well Lou I think. I think the head coach game management aspect was something he struggled with last year, even when he was not the play caller the full time play caller I think it's something that is first of all is not easy. Secondly, you know, something that really got lost in the shuffle about the Giants regime with Shane and Daebo when they had that first season was that they were first timers at both of these jobs Daebo likes to talk a lot about how much experience he has especially because he's in defend his job and defend his existence in the organization mode. But the reality is a first time head coach is a first time head coach and that's hard to learn on the job if you're not accomplished and adept at some of those, you know, those details right you need a strong team behind you delivering those game situation and analytic decisions and helping you gauge what is correct in certain moments. You need people to save yourself from as a collective right Ronnie Ronnie Barnes and the training staff I'm sure we're involved in conversations as well as Brian Dable as far as long as well as Joe Shane. You need somebody in that room to say. You know, not only either he doesn't belong in the field or if you still feel like he can go, then somebody in that room needs to say, I don't feel comfortable going into the game like this what happens if this happens what happens if this guy if he re injures himself what happens if on the opening kickoff, he pulls his hamstring with an already bad groin because he's chasing down, you know, Austin Echler on what easily could have been an opening game 98 yard kickoff return for a touchdown right so those types of things have to be discussed and said and I think, yes like, you know, you're you're in over your head, if you make decisions like they made with that Graham good old call I mean, they, if you're a Giants player. It wouldn't be unfair for you to feel like we would have won that game if they if they did the right thing with our kicker right now, you know, the Giants players have enough to worry, worry about with their own jobs. You know, Bobby O'Karrick, he said, in his, in his zoom call that he said, you know, I'm going to be accountable and you know I didn't, I didn't play well enough he said, I was doing like three quarters of my three quarters of my attention was doing my job and then another quarter of it was trying to do someone else's and Bobby's being accountable to not playing well there. However, what he's also saying there is there were messes all over the place that I was trying to clean up right. I think definitely one place they were trying to clean up a mess was their defensive line in the running game was getting pushed around. It was funny because on the one hand Bobby Johnson the former Giants, a line coach and the table friend who got canned last year, his line committed five fall starts in the red zone for Washington so that was a bad look however, they did bully the Giants D line and the defense in the running game. And of course, I used and washed the Giants out at the end with the ball so interesting there. And then Lou as far as over the heads, his head as a coordinator I mean he obviously was not when he had Josh Allen as his quarterback and that would that offense was one of the best offenses in the league and he was able got this job. That said, I think, you know, we haven't seen an elite offense with brand able as coordinator without Josh Allen right so Josh Allen's an incredible player and we now know that so I think, you know, you ask a fair question there. But we know, would they be better if he gave up play calling again. I don't even think he can do that at this point right that was kind of the last ditch effort. That's why I think he's selling so hard. Hey look at all these improvements the offense is making because it's it's either that or why not somebody else. Kyler thanks so much for checking in Kyler as he notes he was first in the queue Kyler nice work says I had to defend you today on another podcast thank you Kyler I really appreciate that. Yeah I mean we talked a little in the post game about how the little in the post game about how you know the fact that this was kind of split down the middle with the fan base you know there were fans coming on here on Sunday saying, wait I'm really to ask that what's your problem. Then there were other people saying Pat thank you so much for asking the hard questions like Lou did so you know what I find is usually when you're right down the middle there and there's tons of people on both sides of things you're kind of you're in the right place you know a lot of times is what that means. There are times where you're right and you're the only person saying what you're saying and everybody's on the other side too. But I think it's actually a good reflection of the balance of the conversation that there are people who agree and disagree but Kyler thanks for sticking up for me a loyal talking baller. Undefined says Pat how is your health after table tried to burn a hole through you with his eyes the clip was on ESPN yep no I'm doing great I'm doing great I had a great day coach the soccer practice. And I got some work done wrote a story about Malik neighbors and that interesting game that he had wrote another story about table participated participated in the press conference the zoom press conference with table asked them a few questions. Everything went fine. He's still a little bit he's still a little tense I mean he has been since the start of the season so that's just where that's just you know that's just where it is. Smack that like and sub button for the real G pat on your way in thank you so much for the reminder Jacob that's a great reminder everybody while we are live. Please hit the like button while we are live you know on YouTube on the channel here those likes that you hit while we are live. This is the algorithm. This things pop in fans are here this is where everybody's talking giants this is where everybody's talking ball. This is where everybody's talking the NFL and getting news information analysis and collaborating with somebody on the inside the sources in the giant sources in the NFL the covering the NFL and the Giants since 2016. We hope bring more people into this community where we're already fostering great conversations about the team. All right looks like we have another super chat in the queue remember those super chats get you answered first. All right we have big Mike says when will they start cleaning house after week three. That's a great question Mike I think. This is a debate that I'm having with you know people who I've had conversations with over the last you know couple days. And really a couple weeks since the start of the season I mean this is where I saw this going you know I don't take any. You know pleasure in the fact that the team stinks and I think you know I've said to you guys before especially now like I know dysfunction sometimes sells when it comes to covering a team in sports right like. It's either the team's really good and everybody's invested in reading and watching. Or it's really bad it's a tire fire and everybody can't look away right as they as they as they slow down and watch the whatever's happening on the shoulder of the road type thing. But you know we've had enough enough dysfunction here in New York it's time to get some wins it's time to write some books about some playoff runs. It's time to get my face not only on talking ball live all the time but also back on these network TV shows regularly. You know I think I belong there I think it's past due and I think that a giant giant's winning would certainly do that but you know this is me just being totally honest like the selfish part of you is really hoping that the team is good. The team is good than people tap in and say, hey how about your giant hey can you come on talk about Daniel Jones is MVP raise hey can you talk about Malik neighbors being the top receiver in the league for one of the best offenses and football. You know can you come into this panel with Odell and Malik neighbors and you know you know whatever. Anything that results in more experiences, more eyeballs, more attention, more fun right like this is what you're looking for when you're covering a team so we're not getting that right now. Really the total opposite even a potentially increasingly toxic locker room situation for the media has just been like kind of antagonistic overall. So that all kinds of need that need to be dialed down a little bit but the continued losing will help that to ratchet up I personally Mike. I think that the Dallas game for table is the watershed moment. You know, because yes it is early. But the reason that the job security question is relevant after week two is first of all how bad week one was okay. Was that bad going into a season where his job was on the line right immediately it's an issue. Okay. Also there are there are places where odds are out and he is odds on favorite to be the first head coach fired this year as well. So it's not like, it's not like I'm the one. You know I don't create I don't set those odds right. I got an email today telling me the latest odds on that and able was first so kind of reinforces where I'm at. You know the thing about could it happen after a Cleveland game right I think where we're at right now is you're probably looking at. Okay, if they if they play if they go to Cleveland and they can't score and the offense looks inept like it did in week one let's say in the run game now is not happening anymore. The defense continues to be bad right now you're talking about okay does table have time to pull the cord make the quarterback change. Try to look for something like that right. And you know is that last ditch effort still on the table that could make a difference does he have that in his bag and in his pocket because everyone in the building I think if they watched all of training camp. Even if they liked you like like I do knows that lock did not press Jones for the job there right. So it'll be interesting to see I so I think. If they go 0 and 4 with that loss to Dallas and the Dallas loss is that ugly nationally televised standalone game division rival one and eight against the Cowboys and Eagles since Shane and able took over right. And that games embarrassing and bad and the fans are leaving and booing like they did in week one that to me is that's probably the moment right. As the Falcons score a touchdown in Philadelphia Darnell Mooney going for a 42 yard score and the Eagles on the ropes late in the third quarter. And then as far as Shane big Mike I mean you have to think that if this season does go as badly as it could and it does result in his firing. Probably looking at a and after the season deal you know is my guess there. You know Daniel Jones of course he is on watch right now, not only because of the situation above him and the record, but also let's face it. You know we've talked about it going back to the post game Sunday in Washington, but chef you're putting a headline on the injury guarantee and noting how other quarterbacks have been benched in those same circumstances for that same reason. But really if you need to hear any more than that about why that could be coming, you know, I mean, come on. All right need a sip here my state 98. All right Elias Elias welcome back great to see him. What are your thoughts on rookies can Shane use this rookie classes play still early as leverage to stay while they both leaves and that means he drafts a quarterback. You know Elias that's a good question because I think part of the reason you're asking that is because we've seen two rookies now. They look like they're players right it's Malik neighbors and it's Drew Phillips the corner out of Kentucky, both guys that look like they could be exciting players and good contributors for a long time. Tyler Newman I think will join that group as well I like his game I like his attitude I like his makeup. You know I'm itching to see him be like a big time contributor in one of these games to validate that does have the measurables and the tools and the instincts. So we'll see I think he can play, you know it's possible Elias I mean, you know the Joe Shane losing his job scenario comes into play. If the roster doesn't look like it has a lot of building blocks right so that's where they stand going into this season. But if the rookie class bears significant fruit right like if it's suddenly Oh, this guy added a number one receiver starting slot corner. And one of the other guys pop right Newman is a true replacement starting safety who doesn't make you, you know, yearn for the days of Xavier McKinney and Julia love anymore. Now maybe you're talking a little bit. I mean I still think Elias that the offensive line now supposedly rebuilt the quarterback decision with Daniel in general, as well as the defense right the the lack of attention to the O line in the draft, the fact that their interior D line still looks like this right. You know, those are all on Joe Shane as well so it's possible that some encouraging rookies would still not result in him saving his job but Elias you're you're dead on there with that it that like you're correct in creating basically a column. So the question is not, there is the overall full context evaluation that is really the end all be all evaluation. But there's also those columns like you said of. Okay, all of this didn't look good enough but actually looked like some but something about our process worked here. Are we really going to throw the baby out with the bathwater so to speak right so you can get to that place with Joe Shane, depending on how many, you know, your rookies develop and then also it has to, it has to be combined with the team looking competent on the field like if they if they're oh and seven this year, and a couple of his rookie players look like they're kind of encouraging. You know that doesn't save somebody's job, you know it would have to help help result in results. Matthew, thank you so much Matthew Kelly checks in with a $5 super chat says in my opinion giants offensive identity is to go 12 personnel to protect Daniel. It's not worth throw to Malik neighbors it's the reason why Bellinger and Hyatt don't see the field. Right, and the reason why Bellinger doesn't see the field now in 12 is because they didn't trust him enough as a blocker and I totally agree with that. And I hope you guys realize again not banging my chest or anything, but this is just a reinforcement of if you're new to this channel guys. These are the types of things that you will get here, like not everything there is breaking news there are times where I come on here and I say guess what here's what I got for you right. But throughout our conversations you will get my day to day essentially insights on right from the practice field on what I'm seeing about the development of the roster and the team. How it's being coached how it's being evaluated who's growing and developing who's not who's making the roster who's on the outs who's on the bubble. Why guys aren't contributing like I have it all. And so Bellinger is a guy that I've been telling you since the spring looked like he was dropped way down low on the depth chart. And it was something to continue to keep an eye on as they drafted a safety over as they signed Chris man hurts and what do you know. Now they bring up Jakob Johnson right from the prat or you know they brought him in I mean they signed him. He went back and forth now on the active roster now on the game day roster as a full back. This is where it was going. And so you're going to know these things months in advance. If you're listening to what we're doing here so that when you turn on the TV and week two and Daniel Bellinger barely plays. No one is shaking their head or scratching their head and saying why not right. But Matthew you're absolutely right I think about their identity. And I think again the key to what you just said is two things obviously you're noting that. You know two tight ends on the field some heavier personnel right max max protect or. You know more than just a 11 personnel protection with the offensive line spread out and one tight end and three wide outs outside right. So you're noting that part of how they need to operate to protect Jones give him time and also really the fact that the O line not sure you can be trusted to just protect with the five. But that in addition to that I said this last week I'll say it again Matt I think you agree after or Matthew sorry after you know watching that game the other day. What did we see in weeks one and two with the offense one real key was in week two they ran the ball and in week one they didn't. Right. And so you know the other key was Joe a junior and Dan Quinn playing man to man single high and putting like a 10 10 yard cushion over top of Malik neighbors and letting him catch like five five yard passes and turn them into 12 yard gains like I still don't understand what they were doing. But you know running the ball is the key. And so it was encouraging for the Giants as Dave will noted that they were able to move the ball in the ground that Devin Singletary at a good game obviously the fumble killed them was a killer turnover and really for like. You know if you if you had Tyrone Tracy get 15 carries and he fumbled you'd say yeah you know he's a rookie unfortunately that just happens right. You can't have that from a guy. You can't have you can't have that from a guy with you know with veteran experience you know you just in that situation you can't have that. Matthew really good point there. Jacob checks in and says Pat did. Drew Phillips fall off draft boards or something kids looks like a first round pick so far we got an absolute steal so far in Drew. Well he's a slot corner so he's not going to get moved to outside corner and be guarding like top wide receivers on the outside that's not the type of player. At least that's not the player they drafted him to be that they didn't view that in his skill set but you know his. So prioritizing like a tough run stopping tackling like culture guy that kind of deal who can also defend the past that's what he is so. He just ends up in the right place there I mean sanistrill the guy that Juan Dale beat for the touchdown. That was a slot corner that they could have taken in the second round who I think is a really good player obviously Juan Dale got the best of them on a nice route there for the touchdown. But you know there's what are you prioritizing right run defense past defense. You know so I think I think he was in end up in the right spot of the draft but led the team and tackles in the game. You know that was great to see and you know he really like he puts everything into all of his hits would you agree with that like Drew Phillips. He really he really lays it on ball carriers when he makes those hits and he of course good to see that he came back after getting evaluated. You know for the concussion and Brian Dable said today that there were no injury like no major injury concerns on the team outside of. Graham Ganno so that was a little surprising to me given that Cordell flock I'd heard late that Mike McFadden seemed like he re injured his groin there. So kind of surprise that there's nothing lingering there with McFadden but good good to hear obviously. By the way I referenced this right off the top. The Giants did work out kickers today Brian Dable said they were going to. And so here are the names for you if you didn't see them already. Tanner Brown. Randy Bullock we all knew we all know Randy Bullock very well. Brian Gonzalez former Arizona state kicker and Riley Patterson from Memphis so Brown Bullock Gonzalez and Patterson. They obviously have Jude McTabbany on the roster but on the practice squad but. Let's be honest if you didn't trust him enough to elevate him for that game in Washington to be a fail safe if Graham got hurt. Why would you why why would they suddenly develop trust in him to be their kicker now for three or four weeks you know they haven't shown faith in him. So you know we'll see which one of those guys they end up signing but those were the workouts or that was the workout sorry that occurred. All right let's see did I miss another super chat coming in I did it looks like. We got big Mike in the house big Mike what's up. Let's see it's seen that they both really wanted. Jaden Daniels so I believe his limit at what he can do as a play caller hard knocks revealed a lot the GM should go. Yeah Mike let's talk about the Jaden Daniels point first. You know I think that conversation. Forget specifically Daniels for a second I think the thing that needs to just the main takeaway from all that has to be. You know because there is the waters do get muddied. Now with so much disinformation and teams putting out their version of the truth and all of that. So when you see all that. It's easy to remember in a cloudy way. Like oh yeah well you know I heard that they went and scouted this QB but I you know I heard they also did this and that and in 2022 they went and talked to this guy. So the disinformation was that the Giants always do this kind of quarterback work that they did before the 2024 draft on all the prospects. They do not do aggressive work on QBs like that every year. That was unique because they were in the market for a quarterback yes they scout QBs other years. But the way that they pursued the quarterbacks in this draft Daniels and may especially there at the top. That was unique because they were going to get one right and for table. Right that was that was important for table because for Brian table it was okay I'm either. You know going to the mat to save my job with Daniel Jones or I'm going to the mat to save my job with. A young promising player who is also getting the benefit every every time he walks on the field of being a developmental guy right. So you know kind of really hurt table that they didn't end up drafting them. So as you said limit as a play caller it was interesting he even he even indicated that they changed their plan from what it was supposed to be to just go full Malik neighbors yesterday just because Washington's coverage. He didn't say this but I'm saying this part. Washington's coverage plan was ridiculous and it was working you know like neighbors they weren't able to guard him that's what Daniel Jones said to he just said they you know they didn't have an answer there. So we just kept going to him basically. And yes hard knocks revealed a lot about I think the GM in the operation I think. The point that former GM Michael Lombardi made on his podcast once he said they're collecting talent they're not building a team. That is I think accurate and well said and also something that I've heard different versions of said about the takeaways from the Giants operation in hard knocks. And you know you need an identity you need a team. It can't just be collecting talent right. All right so let's go to the next one. Mr. Danky says rumor has it stable is staring at Pat right now yeah he he might he might be he might be. Never know where Jerry can fit those fit those cameras Jerry Jerry security of Giants if you're listening hello. Andre says PL was the topic of conversation on W.F.A.N. today. I got to admit my phone was blowing up today more than usual. Some people I haven't heard from in the last few weeks some people I haven't heard from in a month or two. Some people I haven't heard from in you know three or four months. And text phone calls sounded like the name Pat Leonard was all over the radio waves all over the national conversation regards the bride able so. But like I said when right back on to the zoom talk to table today asked him a question about the defense asked him a question about. You know some injuries and and so you know right back at it right in the flow of things we're on the Cleveland as as they say. Ken says Francis also mentioned it on his podcast. Francesa yeah hey you know I think if the Giants or anybody thinks that I'm harsh right in these moments they got to listen to some of some of what you know Francesa and some of these other guys have said. Right I mean I'm I'm just one of many voices right now pointing out the harsh reality of what we're watching. Matthew says Pat you mentioned that cave on Tippito made a nice play running down Jaden Daniels at the end of the game. Not sure if a scheme, not sure if it's scheme but it looks to me that cave on often doesn't seal the edge in the hopes of getting a sack. I can't be in his mind to say why if he doesn't set the edge he's not setting the edge. I think a lot of that I've talked to you know coaches just about edges in general if they're not setting the edge. I think a lot of that has to do with technique and leverage and a commitment to it you know to your point, like commit to stopping that first has to be the deal. I mean Shane Bowen did say and I think, I think maybe Dabel and Shane said that they were going to stop the run on the way to the quarterback with this new regime with Shane Bowen I think is the way they put it. And you know if that's your philosophy then maybe you do have guys with their eye on the quarterback as they're playing the run which is not the way you want to you want to go it with it. I'm going to call here hold on. Silence that like I said calls and texts all day. What was I going to say about cave on there. You know I think in general they want to stop the run and they're coaching their players to stop the run but yesterday I think was a reinforcement of the fact personnel wise I don't think they're billed as well for that. Like in my conversation with Benny Fowler about the Dallas Cowboys. And I asked Benny about why. So that that'll be up on the YouTube channel by the end of the night. First down with Benny Fowler, but I asked Benny Fowler about the Cowboys and how did the New Orleans Saints do that much damage to them. And he pointed out that similar to last year's playoff loss to the Packers. Cowboys are built to win from in front like when they take a lead they're the front runners right and that that's a word that I heard years ago about them the Cowboys are front runners always remember that. You know and how they act and how they play and how they win and lose their front runners. And it is so absolutely 100% true. But how their roster is built is they want to get after the passer. Like if you're behind throwing against them losing by 17 or 14 or 10, you know Parsons and those guys can pin their ears backs, ears back, and really get after you, you know, and if you're ahead of them though. And their defense has to stop the run to get the ball back right. That's not what they're built for. And the Saints were taking advantage deep deep field down the field too, but the Saints were taking advantage of the Cowboys not being built in a way to win that game and beat them how they were scheming on offense and the fact of the matter is Matthew Cavan Dexter and Burns. If I told you, the Giants are up by a touchdown or 10 in the fourth quarter and the other team has, you know, three minutes on the clock and they have to throw the ball right. And sequo on Barkley scores, another touchdown for the Eagles are receiving touchdown from jail and hurts with 703 to go in the fourth quarter. That puts the Eagles up 16 to 15 before they either kick an extra point or go for two. But Matthew, the point I was going to make is there's all those investments in that pass rush right in that defensive line and those three guys but if I tell you the other team has three minutes to go and they have to throw to move the ball down the field on the Giants. And the Giants are up seven, you'd say, feel really great about this Burns Thibodeau Lawrence getting to the quarterback that's what that's what we have now we have this elite pass rush. But if I told you, you know, the Giants are down and the other teams running the ball and with Burns Thibodeau Lawrence they need to stop the run to get the ball back. Right. I mean, we know Dexter is really good at both. But cave on and Burns are there, they're really good pass rushes, but they are not known as elite run defenders. It's not what they're known for. You know, they can do it, but they're not like, if they were just run defenders they would not be making the money they're making. You know what I mean. So, I think that's the way I would put that. All right, time for our estate 98 giveaway. We do a trivia question every podcast. Actually, I don't think I remembered to do one after the post game live in Washington so sorry about that. And saying this for a few weeks now but there was one chat I think or a couple chats like MJ I think was somebody who won one of the trivia is and if you win this trivia question how we do it I'll ask you a Giants trivia question. If you get it right. Then you're going to DM me your address or PO box whatever it is and I'm going to send you a free bottle of estate 98 coffee it's about a half a month worth of coffee concentrate you'll love it it's also a good mixture if you like espresso martinis whatever it's worth. You know, martinis whatever it's your coffee mixer. So, Giants trivia question coming your way now, I will look in the queue and the first person to answer it will win a free bottle of estate 98 coffee and then D kid I will get right to your super chat that I saw come in. Your question is, in the Giants 21 18 loss to the Washington commanders. Which player on their defense graded highest total on pro football focus. I'm waiting for those questions to roll in waiting for those questions to roll in here or waiting for the I mean the player guesses to roll in. The question is, which Giants defensive player graded highest for the Giants in the loss to Washington. And there it is Elias got it first D kit got his first guess in. And he guessed Drew Phillips and to be honest D kit. That's who I guessed as well. But the correct answer is Micah McFadden Elias drops it Micah McFadden. His grade was 87.8 total his run defense graded out as an 88.4 pass rush is pretty good over 60 coverage was almost 70 at 69.1 tackling at 72.9 That's why I mentioned it last podcast I'll mention it again DJ Davidson now two straight games the lowest graded player on the Giants defense by PFF. So that's where we're at it was McFadden burns Lawrence Phillips adory Jackson as the fifth one though he didn't play many snaps okay came in right behind that. Thanks for playing that Elias says I felt like I cheated I saw it this morning. Okay Elias sometimes I asked these questions there. Listen there things sometimes that people can look up right you can Google I have no problem with that obviously you want people to try to guess first hand off the top of their head if they're going to go and Google it. They might not have a chance to actually answer the question first or correctly. So kudos to you you're paying attention you're studying your Giants you knew the answer. But to DM me direct message me your address or PO box wherever you want it mailed on my Instagram PL on NFL direct message me there. And I will mail you a bottle of the state ID a copy so congratulations to Elias. I know that was a little more on this to the direct info end of the trivia spectrum. I've had more obscure ones before, but I'll come in with another one on Thursday at halftime of Thursday night football. And if you guys are new here by the way as I take another sip of coffee. If you are new to talking ball live with Pat Leonard. I have a podcast talking ball with Pat Leonard where we have special guests on every week. You can find that on the believe network Apple Spotify audio and also on the YouTube channel PL on NFL. I'm talking about live three times a week essentially. It's after every Giants game post game live. Then we do talking ball live Monday night football halftime and Thursday night football halftime. And post game live is me coming out of the Giants locker room at the stadium wherever they are home or away. I'm telling my stories for the New York Daily News and then jumping on YouTube live with you guys, the fans to give you information analysis dissect what I've seen and heard from the players from the coaches from my sources. So that's what we're doing here. Again, thanks to the believe network and we keep rolling here on talking ball live here on Monday night. All right D kit says so Pat what's the secret plan that the genius Joe Shane has cooked up to upgrade the interior D line has to be something right. He's playing chess isn't he. Well, that's really good. It's funny. I did not see exactly what your comment was D kit before I made that DJ Davidson comment. But let's face it, Elijah Chapman was an exciting player in camp undrafted rookie. He's a guy who can play in the NFL and contribute but through two games and listen this happens like it's not there's nothing wrong with like for the players and when you're evaluating the player for example. Trey Hawkins late round pick comes in has a pretty good camp for the Giants. They think oh this is going to translate to the field in the regular season. It does not right. Elijah Chapman same deal so far through two games you're looking for more right. I'm not putting him on the level of Trey Hawkins just yet as far as oh you know we can't have this guy in the field. But which is you know which is what happened to him in the rotation obviously from the Giants and is what I mean. But you know the fact is listen this is another thing I've been saying all summer and you guys have been saying all summer right D kids not like I was the only person to see it. But they do not have enough talent or depth at that position. And when Dexter comes off the field I mean absolutely good luck stopping the run right. So you know what's the plan there I mean you have Jordan Riley who's not getting a lot of run. But really it's just a bunch of Joe Shane draft picks who haven't panned out on the interior D line you know they traded Leonard Williams. They got some good return there. Obviously they had this the two second round picks so then they used one to get Brian Burns on the edge rather than have Leonard on the inside. And then they use the other second round pick on Tyler Newman. Interesting here the Eagles are up three and it's the fourth quarter six twenty left and the Falcons have the ball. They've had a lot of success against the Eagles defense today Kirk cousins takes a deep shot oh he had him and he missed him. But so this should be a really interesting finish to Monday night football keeping my eye on that as we continue to chat D kit. Thank you very much for for that super chat really appreciate you. All right let's see. Ross Cantor says how do you feel that the Giants media is coming after you Russ Salzberg called you out by name saying you don't have sources and make up stuff. Bob Papa and BB KL we're saying outside media doesn't have a clue. Yeah no I those opinions don't matter to me. Anybody you know taking personal shots at me is obviously not someone to be taken seriously and I don't consider that even a part of the conversation about the team. So you know I would say I am above that and it's easy to rise above that if you get my drift. All right so Omar says you were all over sports talk radio yeah no I heard. The you know that's where like the friends and family reaching out to you you know what happened I didn't see it then some people saw it. And they say oh my oh my god he stared a hole through your face you know what I mean like definitely a lot of reactions but hey. For those of you who don't know there's a clip on YouTube of John Twitter Ella the former Rangers coach telling me to stop coaching stop coaching Pat right. That was the that was the famous deal there with torts and so I've been I've had coaches try to put me in my place before. I've had you know those battles Pat Shermer you know really the top three are probably you know Shermer torts. And now they will so you know it's part of covering a team in my opinion the right way which is you're doing it. As objectively as you can and what that means is that listen sometimes there's going to be stories I write that are glowing about the team or people on the team sometimes I'm going to write stories that have opinions of people. You know that are not knowing or critical right but usually what it means is that I hope like from my opinion it's like you're covering the team honestly you're not doing it like I'm not coming to you guys and telling you. Here's the reality with what's going on with the Giants when it was just something that someone with the Giants told me and spun to me to try to you know cover something up or conceal something or airbrush and narrative I'm not you're not going to find that here. If I say something that I think is impressive or good about the Giants is not going to be because they told me and I didn't know myself I'm going to find out myself. I think I'm going to be one of the best players in the game and I'm going to be one of the best players I'm going to be one of the best players in the game. I mean do the players have they bought in or retain do the players they've brought in or retained fit the way they want to play that's a great point. You know I think I think the kicker call you know forget about how it affected the game the kicker decision. I think that was actually a good example sometimes of how it feels like some of these decisions are flying by the seat of their pants right, whether it's acquiring talent that doesn't necessarily fit what they're running or whether it's making a decision that you're pressing for an answer but then you're wondering in the back of your mind you're like, is that is there an explanation here like is is there not an explanation it's possible there isn't one you know what I mean. So that's that's the case I mean here's the other concern. How concerning is it and I'm listen this I'm not trying to pile on here I'm just saying this is my read on the situation wow the Falcons just went for a fourth and short at their own 40 yard line and didn't get it. But it looks like the official is throwing a flag for a helmet to helmet hit. So this is wow this is pretty tense here interesting interesting situation developing here, potentially game ending. Eagles fourth downstop on defense and now they're saying no foul on the play. So the Eagles get the stop and the Eagles get the ball back up three 538 to play interesting games not over Falcons have all three of their timeouts, but big play there. All right. Let's see, yeah, no, yeah D kit I mean, I know I kind of got off on a tangent they're watching a little bit of this Monday night football drama but I think the point you make about the lack of a plan is just, you know, I think, oh, the most concerning thing to me is that they made a mistake. They injured kicker with Graham gonna last year, they just did it. And it, and it helped cost them a game a Jets game that they had a 99% chance of winning when he sent him out to kick that field goal when it was fourth and one, and a sequel that they would have ended the game, right. So, man oh man, like the fact that they, that they were in a situation already as a regime, where the lack of attention to detail and decision making on the kicker led to a costly loss. And they let it happen again it shows you it's either arrogance or they're not listening and learning. So that's not learning is a very bad quality for leadership. Anthony says facts Pat facts no doubt. Anthony says the running game was a red flag last year the whole offense was a red flag last year no doubt Anthony. D kit says Pat would you say bow in his feeling pressure I watched all 22 and the personnel groupings and defensive structure were strange. I think he was trying to figure out ways to affect Daniels and combat the run action of Jaden Daniels and and key a focus in on there. Also, as you saw like when Daniels has time he can stand stand back there and make the throats right. So it was kind of a, it was a different element facing him versus Darnold where you're trying to get him. He's trying to affect him and pressure him and sack him, but you don't want to rush him straight up field let him through the lanes and out either. And so, you know, I think, you know, to be honest I saw a lot of fans saying this after the game but this is the kind of thing. Martin was very good at was like understanding how to attack protections with a mobile quarterback unique quarterback. Like he, you know, he made life a living hell for Lamar Jackson when they beat the Ravens for jail and hurts when they played the Eagles right all those kinds of things. And so, you know, the fact that you don't have that now, and you have you have Bowen looking there how to try to fix it try how to try to attack it. He needs to get pressure there, but he doesn't want to over commit and let Daniels run wild. I do just think, you know, this was a schematic either disadvantage or a reduction in quality that we all saw coming. You know, and from what I can, from what I have understood from dealing with Shane Bowen, he seems like a stand up guy so far like dealing with him I mean I've had no problem in my dealings with him talking to him. You know so that that all has come through fine. But listen, I think everybody's feeling the pressure decid. I mean, with tables acting this tense, how does everyone else not as well, not to mention that. Listen, the bottom line is this. Anybody who it took a lifetime to find the person you want to marry finding the perfect engagement ring is a lot easier. At Blue Nile dot com, you can find or design the ring you've always dreamed of with help from Blue Nile's jewelry experts who are on hand 24/7 to answer questions and the ease and convenience of shopping online. For a limited time, get $50 off your purchase of $500 or more with Code Pod at Blue Nile dot com. That's $50 off with Code Pod at Blue Nile dot com. That's why I joined this staff. Okay, anybody who joined this staff this year, in my opinion, was was coming to New York for one year. That's how I viewed it when they were signed when they were signing up and signing out and, you know, coming here and filling roles it was like well, you're probably going to need to look for another job next year. A to Z means as Pat is the story. Oh boy. Hey, I hope just one of those people out there on those radio shows was actually dropping the talking ball with Pat Leonard live name as they were using my name, you know, put my name on it. All right, sipping some more coffee here. Like I said, need that extra energy. My Amtrak train didn't get home until 430 in the morning, Monday morning from the Sunday game. It was completely brutal delays all over the place delays on the tracks or people on the tracks. It was just totally insane. Raw says I had a feeling that Debo will be scapegoated to Joe Shane will have an opportunity to bring in a new coach and quarterback do you see as a possibility. Yes, that is a possibility. They did come in as a as a team as a tandem. John Marrow though in March said he doesn't necessarily view Shane and Debo as a package deal so that obviously opens the door for one to get fired and the other not to. The Giants traditionally are a team that for lack of a better word protects or, you know, affords more patience to the general manager seat. When the coach is up there taking all the bullets at the podium and kind of dying on the vine and scapegoated or just fired justifiably. So that is their history as well. So that is possible Ross. I think though as we were talking about earlier, I think Shane needs his young players and his building blocks to play well to play better to keep building. No Mets what's up great to see you no Mets another loyal follower. No Mets says hey Pat thoughts on cave on with the Giants be wise to put him on the trading block better earlier than too late. So Mets that's an interesting question. I think so far what I've seen with cave on is that I know he's got talent he's obviously got top 10 talent. And like I said we saw hustle from him this week had a much better game. That said that you know he was part of a defense that got waxed and also, you know I just don't like what I've seen this year off the field as far as I know he essentially kind of made made good on hey you know I shouldn't have said next question or I don't know I don't remember how he said it about his interaction with Jordan Ron on but he essentially tried to make good on that and indicate that's not who he is. But I just think you know the accountability element, the attitude the consistency like those things like no Mets what do you think they would get for him if they put him on the block I guess is my question because the people around the league, the scouting reports said what we are now seeing as far as the inconsistencies as far as you know those concerns I'm talking about you want to see it like a consistent production level and also like let's stop let's not focus on you know the media or questions that you don't want to face or things that are outside of your control like let's just let's just do this you were here to play football and help us win games let's stop the run get to the quarterback and that's that right so I think of his production started ticking up no Mets with whatever else is going on. I think if his production started increasing and look he started looking like a player that was changing games consistently, then that's where maybe like a good example would be Xavier McKinney where he had that off season incident where he was in the ATV and broke his hand down his hand and you know that combined with some other little things it's like okay we know this guy's a good player how much do we actually want to invest right so if you get to that point with cave on where like you know he's a good player and he's actually producing you know at the same time you don't want to invest right you don't want to pay then like to your point no Mets they see of course when KVON comes up for contract talk is he the type of guy who's going to make that very public is he going to hold out is he going to make it and you've already paid Brian Burns essentially instead of paying that contract a year from now to KVON because so far he hasn't been that elite game changing past Russia say that Aidan Hudgences has been for the Lions in the same draft a few picks earlier so that is possible no Mets for sure I do think it would help the Giants though if the if it came to that listen I'm not sitting here please nobody aggregate me saying they're going to put KVON typically on the trading block that is not what I'm saying but I'm just answering our question but I'm saying that but I don't think it would ever got to that point it would be all like to the point where he was a tradable asset where they would get a lot back it would also be like let's see some big time production you know what I mean alright let's get back into the queue here lost my spot but thank you for the super chat no Mets let's see but ask why he thinks it's appropriate to stare at you or just tell him if he focused on the game plan like he focuses on you he'd get different questions ouch nice undefined you're good you're better at that response there than I am see the other thing though is this undefined first of all I was at the moment figuring out what was going on but also you know if you make it personal then that's not professional right you don't want to make it personal that doesn't mean you can't stand up for yourself and talk back to each other obviously that wouldn't make it personal necessarily but you don't want to be disrespectful make it personal right and it's not personal it wasn't personal for me it was clearly coming you know it's clearly felt personal from what he was doing to me as far as staring but in the same way that like Joe Shane kind of you know from my vantage point it felt like he tried to embarrass me in that press conference a couple years ago where you about the Kidarias Tony stuff about not shopping him and all that and then obviously I knew they were trying to trade him and then they eventually did and you know in that moment like why should I fight there why should I make it you know personal knockdown drag out that doesn't make any sense to do it's not you know it's not necessary I don't need to stoop to that you know Tim says will the Giants avoid going 0 and 3 and beat the Cleveland Browns on the road I don't think so Tim one of my main concerns is that the Browns defense with you know Miles Garrett Wusukora Moa Grant Delpit you know they have a lot of talent on the you know Zadarias Smith Dalvin Tomlinson they have a lot of talent over there they do not have a turnover forced this year through two games which is interesting but I don't feel no I don't feel good about it I don't feel I don't feel good about it now the Browns offense obviously has been ugly hasn't been anything to write home about they do not have Nick Chubb if they had Nick Chubb I think you could easily just say that's a complete wrap I'm not even watching this game given what the Giants run defense looks like he'd be the start of the week so without him I think you know maybe the Giants defense can force a bad quarterback into Sean Watson into some mistakes and if Jerome Ford they're running back you know isn't the kind of back that gives them problems and I think the other way that Robinson Jr. and Echler did then maybe you just have a defensive slug fest both ways so that that way is possible but I don't think the Giants are going to score many points in the game I'll say that I'm not going to find once you banned from that life ouch is that true oh I see what you're saying yeah no sorry I'm an idiot yeah you're saying like if I go back at Dave will take those shots at them then they'll just spam me from the stadium yeah right exactly I'm real thick headed here man geez I'm sure people can be fired in season I just think Mara will wait till the end of the season even do you think he'd wait till this end of the season even if even if like they're 0 and 7 like if they go 0 and 7 or they're 0 and 4 you know if they're 0 and 4 to the Cowboys and the Cowboys is a blowout and fans leave the stadium and boo and nobody wants to go to the games anymore like does he does he last to the end of the season then I don't know right Tim you pointed out defense needs to pressure watts into win for sure A2Z me says not football related P Diddy was just arrested interesting Barb's is go Falcons against the Eagles not going their way right now but I hear you Barb NFC East Giants chances Eagles Sequon FOMO all that ball people are always angry Dr. Evil grew from Despicable me Lex Luthor and Dable don't take it personal Kylo you're so funny you're bringing you're bringing some good action in the chat today looks like we got another super chat down here from D kit D kit the man hey oh look D kit we were just talking about this the Falcons just went off sides on purpose Eagles declined the penalty but it's funny as you just mentioned it but the strategy didn't work yeah that's funny yeah so you can do it take take the give they take that penalty and then it can help you get the ball back so that's really funny I'll have to I'll have to put that out on Twitter later now that we just saw it in the game that this is something the Giants could have tried as well right Anthony says I don't think the Giants online will keep Daniel Jones upright in Cleveland never mind it being a road game our defense has been horrible I don't say this to hate us I can only go off of what I've seen so far that's fair Jacob likes my new name the Giants sprinkle yeah no yeah sprinkle like a so it's a small amount of money on a probably long shot or semi long shot bed where I'm trying to outsmart everybody on what I know about the Giants and what's going to hit so that's that's what we're going to do every week Ross says I do think they need to hire the next head coach with head coaching experience that was successful variable might be the only one that fits that other than Bill Belichick and Brian Flores Flores an interesting one T kit notes that Cignon Barkley looks really sharp and quick yep for a second straight week Andre says you mentioned Ronnie Barnes he's been with the Giants forever and is well respected but is it time for a change there the way this regime handles injuries has been weird yeah I mean it's also just that the training staff and Ronnie they're involved in all these decisions about player health about player workloads and all but when push comes to shove this is what I was saying about a lot of problems with the organization you know and this happens not it's not just the Giants but like you know it's funny people are talking about me kind of going after day ball whatever I empathize with day ball and with these head coaches who they get shoved out there in the podium and they are forced to ask answer questions for all these other people who are part of the operation and who are also accountable but they're not being held accountable because they're not the head coach right does that make sense so like all of these years for example like you know the Joe Judge situation with oh they practice so hard and all these guys got heard and all those all those comments made when there were other years when Joe Judge wasn't here where they were much more injured right so it's not true stuff but it's narratives to coming from you know coming from people with their own agenda to create this alternate reality of like why everything they do make sense and is justifiable and justified it's really funny to me too like you know the Giants bristle when you ask a question about someone's job security or you know or you cover them critically but it's so funny like every one of these head coaches the people who get angry that you're criticizing the Giants and these coaches suddenly when it's time to fire those coaches and the organization no longer no longer believes suddenly they're not standing behind that head coach suddenly they're not you know suddenly they're leaving them hanging to dry suddenly they decide when it's time they just don't want you to decide when it's time but the fact of the matter is I do my own independent reporting and I don't answer to anybody on any of these teams I'm an independent with the New York Daily News and we're a newspaper and then here on the Believe Network giving you the most information that I can on talking ball with Pat Leonard and talking ball with Pat Leonard live including our post game lives which are really popping. I want to tell you guys again about our sponsors here. Got to clear the throat drink some odd real quick. We're going to keep going this is just kind of the midpoint or something something close to a midpoint of our chat tonight here on Monday. So first I obviously want to tell you guys about my bookie. My bookie.a G is partnered with talking ball with Pat Leonard thrilled to be partnered with a winner and if you're looking to win if you're looking to cash in if you're looking to hit on your under bets if you're looking to bet on a game or a shootout between two Lombardi favorites you know two teams like the Chiefs and the Bengals going at it in week two you could easily see in the AFC title game months from now competing for a spot in the Super Bowl as Saquon drops a pass in the red zone. Oh man on third down that would have helped the Eagles ice the game there. A costly drop from Saquon Barkley in the flat. So it's fourth and three so now the Eagles are going to have to kick a fuel goal to go up six and the Falcons are going to get the ball back with time left down six with a chance to win with a touchdown. So costly job here by Saquon Barkley very interesting very interesting, not like we didn't see jobs from Saquon in New York as well we know that has been a part of the experience even though he is a better receiver. And then in my mind then the Giants a judge Tim too and that's where the kind of contract situation went. But I digress talking about my bookie so my bookie is celebrating its 10th anniversary and they're rolling out the red carpet for betters they have risk free Thursdays. If your boosted bet doesn't hit you'll get your money back all season long looking to cash in you will literally double the cash in your account if you're using this promo code that I have now it's Pat's picks. 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Lou Mateo says my biggest fear is watching players like neighbors and Dexter waste away while trying to figure out the direction of the team. That's a great point Lou. One thing you don't want because neighbors clearly is a a special talent. You do not want the losing and those to oh and the Atlanta Falcons score a touchdown here. You do not want Malik neighbors in a position where he sours on the culture and sours on the way that the team is built and on the quarterback situation and on all the losing frankly right. You saw him angrily punching the bench of course he was mad at himself for dropping that pass on that fourth down and helping to cost the Giants the game. So, you know, that was him looking inward saying I let everybody down, but you definitely don't want a snowball of losing getting to Malik neighbors for sure right. They need to get one day on more targets says Vince G. Yeah it's interesting because to get one day on more targets. That also means going in 11 personnel for the most part right. He's not going to be on the field as your second wide receiver. You know if it's everybody's healthy. It's going to be. Darius Slaton and it's going to be. Oh wow. So Drake London gets a unsportsman like conduct penalty for doing a celebration where he's basically firing a machine gun, the fake machine gun into the air. So now the Falcons have to with the game tied at 21. How far is this extra point that he's trying here. It still goes in still makes it wow a booming extra point by the Falcons there. And 34 seconds left the Falcons up one about the upset the Eagles in South Philadelphia. I'd say Juan Barkley would be would be the would be the goat, not in a good way if the Eagles lose this game. All right, let's see. But yeah Vince to your point to get one day on more targets. Like you need you need it's late in the neighbors if you're going in the 12 personnel that we were talking about earlier that is kind of their main identity. So if it's late in the neighbors on the field. That takes one day on Robinson off of it. So it's not just a lack of targets in that regard. It's fewer snaps as well. Now it's going to depend on who the Giants are playing because there will be teams that they think that the best way to attack them will be with 11 personnel with a guy like one Dale I mean you saw that's how they were trying to attack the Vikings he had 12 targets team high in that game on Dale did. So there's going to be different ways they attacked different teams. But by and large, it does look like their identity now is leaning more towards that 12 personnel that Matthew was noting earlier, which is interesting. 34 seconds left two time outs for the Eagles to get into field goal range. D kit says seems to me that Bobby O'Karrick is interview showed the players are confused about the defensive scheme maybe the story isn't only about how the players view Jones but the coaching staff as well. I think absolutely D kit I think the reality is even though there was some. There were some players who you know, obviously because winks defenses complicated there you know there are people here and there that you'll hear whispers about oh yeah you know how much they had to learn how much they had to know and. You can't play fastest in that but from what I've seen the people who have said that mostly. Are the winers you know the guys who like I felt like when their defense was cooking in 2022 and even forcing a lot of turnovers last year. I feel like there was a lot of buy in and a lot of effective play from them. And I think D kit what yours what you're noticing here is what is the reality what like when you watch them on the field against Washington. There were times where you're saying like why does it look like they don't have answers right. The players see that if you see that the players see that right so they're trying to figure that out too why don't we have answers like that was one thing. If Martin Dale if if a complicated scheme is more difficult for some guys. The counterpoint is yeah but it's also harder for offenses to prepare for because it's unique every week it's changing and shape shifting. It's also bringing pressures it's hurrying the decision making of the quarterback and the offense that you're facing right. And all of those things and so. You know I think I think one thing that some of the players on defense might be looking at is like listen they've bought into okay this is our new coordinator. This is and the Atlanta Falcons pick off jail and hurts and the Eagles are going to lose in South Philadelphia 22 to 21 to the Atlanta Falcons big time bad loss for the Eagles huge win for the Falcons. And made possible again by a huge costly drop from saquon Barkley out of the backfield. Ooh boy. Ooh boy. Lot to answer for here for saquon in Philly he's about to get the taste of the other side of the coin of playing in Philadelphia he got all the love coming back from Brazil last week. But now he's about to experience the side of it that is most difficult and he certainly is familiar with losing from being in New York so. He's probably going to feel very familiar this this press conference he has after this game. But one thing we know about saquon is he will be accountable and stand up to letting the team down. So we'll have a weekend where both neighbors and Barkley top two weapons of the Giants the last two years both make a lot of plays in their game but also costly plays to lead to their team's defeat. I want a lot of video of the Atlanta Falcons players but I want to see the camera on Barkley right now because that's that's a key moment in his new life down there in Philadelphia which is interesting to follow. But yeah D kit I think you know the players are looking right now for answers. You know when you're forget bow and for a second but just whether you're whatever side of the ball you're on any team you want your coach to provide you with answers and if you're not getting answers from your coach you can feel that. And you can feel that and you know that. Dable has totally regressed since 2022 says your boy hobby. Every decision he made then was gold how or why is he so inept. Yeah I think they just rode the wave of a six in one start there I mean they were not a very good team the rest of that year. If you remember they had a six in one start they had the Baltimore win they had the win over the Packers in London and including Dable's you know good work in the first game in Tennessee. They kind of wrote a little bit of wave. One player said to me. You know in 2023 he said that 2022 felt like they were riding a wave in 2023 he said now we're off the wave you know and so I think that's a that's a good way to describe Dables. Coaching successes and failures so far in New York as well. And you know I think I think they were what six in one and then they finished for six in one that season something like that. But the offense was spotty you know they they chipped into what was it Daniel Jones had the two big games won against the Colts late regular season and then one against the Vikings in the playoffs but. You know overall your boy just. I think the bloom is off the rose as you're noting. Jacob says Pat why didn't you tell me you work for. Bet GM in Vegas. I do not work for bet MGM in Vegas. I may be misinterpreting what you're asking me there though Jacob throw that throw that back in there when you get a chance to clarify. Let's see Bangkok baseball says Pat Dable has lost his balls of steel from 2022 season team always takes on personality of coach and he's been way too upside since 2023 very good point. Baseball very good point. I totally agree with that. And that's why it matters like when I report prior to the game or to the season when I say that the atmosphere is tense it's coming from the top down. That's what I'm talking about too right that's what I'm talking about. Jacob says Pat what are your thoughts on Brandon Brown as a GM candidate I think he's a part of the mistakes they've made here so far and if Shane loses his job. I don't view him as an answer here maybe an interim answer until they hire the next person but I'll view him as the answer. So that's my take on that. Dave says do you think if we lose to the Panthers Dable would be fired. That's if he makes it there. Yes, by the way how about the Panthers benching Bryce Young. You know, anyone who had Daniel Jones as the first quarterback being benched if they had money on that your bet does not cash. Very interesting and early decision there by the Panthers but we know David Tepper. If he sees something that's not working he's going to pull the plug. They've functional organization there so far Dave can Alice really up against it interesting thing from a Giants perspective is this now puts them in a position where you know they're probably more likely to be facing Andy Dalton when they go to Germany and Munich then to be facing Bryce Young. So that's interesting that probably makes it a more difficult game for the Giants frankly. He gets his pad whenever you hire a first time GM and head coach you really don't know how they were performed some guys just don't rise to the occasion. I think it's pretty clear these guys haven't yeah I agree with that. The maras have to do what they have to do. Kyler Kyler is bringing it tonight he says let's start a petition to get Pat his own show talking ball and ESPN with Pat Leonard weekdays at 3 p.m. Hey Kyler let's do it let's get it rolling right. Ready to pop the question and take advantage of 30% off the jewelers at Blue Nile dot com have got sparkle down to a science with beautiful lab grown diamonds worthy of your most brilliant moments. Their lab grown diamonds are independently graded and guaranteed identical to natural diamonds and they're ready to ship to your door go to Blue Nile dot com to get 30% off select lab grown diamonds. That's blue Nile dot com for 30% off lab grown diamonds blue Nile dot com. Let's get it rolling. I appreciate you can Peter says yesterday the Neil Hunter five tackles one and a half sacks burns three tackles zero sacks. Yeah I really did think Hunter was going to be the guy in free agency. Vince G says the O line played well all those quality wide receivers all go 11 personnel in my opinion. Okay you'd rather see 11. Yeah I think the 12 personnel reflects on what they think they need to run the ball and to pass protect. By the way to Ken to your point about the Neil Hunter as well. The Neil Hunter you just had to sign you didn't have to give up an asset for that player so I know they sold the idea that burns as younger as a guy who could grow with them and build with them. But to me it was also like yeah but you're giving up a second round pick that you can use on a corner right. D says Pat I get it that hitting on a couple of draft choices out of several may help but if this year continues the way it looks got to have a team that can compete or else you should be gone. Yeah totally agree. Jacob says draft day. Draft day. Oh okay we're talking about when I was live on draft day draft day Pat was live and was on the phone grabbing nuggets for us for a good two hours. That's right. That's right. We went live on draft day before I went down to the Giants facility to cover the draft and cover the first round and talk to Brian Naval and Joe Shane there. And yeah that was a lot of fun and you know that's what we'll continue to do Jacob knows it thank you Jacob. Real cold G says you were spot on about Bellinger I had this discussion with some Giants podcasters earlier thank you real cold G. He says Pat oh Pat even forgot he was unmuted at one point when I was on the phone yeah yeah you're right that's right I forgot about that. Ken says the Chargers have an identity after two games Giants have none after two years. Yeah Ken great point great point. And I think I think you might have brought you might have brought that up to after the commanders game yesterday. I thought that was an excellent point and a great analogy to like when we say what's the Giants identity and people say like I know some people on here have even said well. Why do they really need an identity we obviously are trying to score points trying to win games trying to deploy our best players. But I think Ken to your point it's this idea of. There's a there's a there's a concept and a plan for how you want the team to play and then your player acquisition and decisions about your roster. All fit into that philosophy is the idea right. So who you sign who you don't resign. Who you draft you know taking a tackle over a wide receiver in the first round right like things like that. Like Joe Aldo from a league neighbors that kind of deal so you know. That's how you also to me like the question about Bobby. I think you guys see this is what I love about this. You guys are crafting a huge point together about the team. So like this is why I always say this is so collaborative here because yes I'm here to give you guys information and try to inform you. But I learn from you guys and you help me full create that full picture of what I'm looking at what we're looking at with the team in the franchise lot with our conversations. And what you're saying now folds into the Bobby OK point that D kit was making earlier Ken which is. The players will draw confidence and buy in out of having a defined understanding of what your identity is what their expectations are. And also the confidence that that identity and philosophy is being created by people that they can have confidence in and get behind right. That's kind of the spiraling effect or the domino effect of if we don't love our scheme or we're not confident in it. Then do we have confidence in the coach do we play the same way at the same speed whatever it is right so. Great point Ken great point. D says I can tell you one thing with confidence Jim Schwartz will not allow neighbors to run free like Quinn and Whit he will not get 18 targets exactly exactly. And you know what most D coordinators won't I have no idea what Washington was doing that game. None. Trying to figure out how we will score on the Browns haven't come up with anything yet. O.G. says I knew Dan Quinn wouldn't let the Giants beat his team. He certainly tried O.G. he certainly tried. Ken says the only winnable game on the schedule is the Panthers go look and tell me who we beat other than them. Yeah I mean I guess based on yesterday possibly Washington because of what their defense looks like but you know of course the Giants lost to them. Mo Plaza I think you meant to say Bryce Young here you said Bryce Harper. You said Bryce Harper got ben so Bryce Young got benched these people think that we're going to pick him up they don't believe in Tommy. Well I would say this pick him up for what you I mean you know they drafted him number one overall and benched him in week two of his second NFL season for Andy Dalton. So I mean how you know I think you're doing them a favor if you give them assets also like is this you know is this a player who mentally is able and ready to play the kind of football you need them to who is going to develop I mean I will say this about your point Mo like always to be fair to the player it is very early in his career it could be possible that with a more stable organization and better coaching that he could flourish as the talent that he was drafted to be. But you know that would be pretty gutsy to be trading him to the New York Giants and for the Giants to be giving up those assets for a player who has played the way he has so far you know. Taking the taking the swig out of the gallon here, hydrating. The kid says if we play the same defensive scheme against the Browns they will rush for 300 yards. Ben says we need Drew Phillips to stay healthy the kid is a beast. Deepats says Drew Phillips had zero interceptions in college that's why he wasn't a top draft pick yes that's part that's that part is one of the reasons why that's a good point. They're really bringing into kick. Vince don't know who they signed or who I'm sorry don't know who they are signing yet, but they worked out for guys old friend or recent friend Randy Bullock Tanner Browns in Gonzalez and Riley Patterson so those are the kickers that they've worked out. Looks like we got another super chat in the queue so I'm going to jump down to that thank you so much looks like it's Lane Lane thank you for checking in. The next time you reporters meet with Brian and do you think he will hate you for the rest of the season now. We saw with Wink he can hold a grudge keep it up. That's a good point about holding a grudge that's a really good point. That you know that's interesting I think we did meet with Dave on zoom on Monday today September 16th the day after the stare downs and you know he actually got tense I thought with questions from other reporters about topics that he just didn't feel like you know diving into but you know he and I had a couple good you know interactions there with me asking him answering, but I do think to your point Wednesday is going to be an interesting day because like I said the locker room has not been terribly friendly as a whole and like to the media and I think the whole organization day ball on down has its back up to us to outside perception to everything. The thing I think is funny is that I look at how people what people say on social media now and you know nationally and random people taking potshots. I feel like what I say is always grounded in reality and fact and like disciplined reporting with integrity and you know whether my voice was out there or not they would just be getting crushed all over the place because they're they're a really bad team like you're in and you're out for the most part like you know that's that's my take. By the way an answer about the Bryce Young thing. I wanted to say this to I should have said this right off the bat. Joe Shane like CJ Stroud and Bryce Young size wise measurables like he's just not he's just not a giant like that's not their type of player at quarterback. Lane thank you so much for for that super sticker really appreciate or for that super chat really appreciate that. Let's see. Deepad says Drew Phillips yeah he has to stay healthy little guy hard hitter yep Socrates says whatever happened to that bills kicker who got let go because of off the field stuff is he still is he still available. Heard charges were dropped I have no idea I just remember he was good. Didn't he get signed somewhere get signed by the Chiefs and then cut or something like that. Someone else figured that out for me I don't I don't remember. I thought I thought I saw he was somewhere on some roster I could be wrong. Jacob says how many practice squad players are you allowed to elevate each week to you're allowed to elevate to practice squad players each week. I think it's possible I'm not positive to double check on this, I think it's possible that with Jude McTamney he's that you know international exemption so he's an extra practice squad or like they have one extra player on the roster like they did with Platsgum or Sandro years back because he's the international player. And I do think if you elevate the player onto the active roster and he plays then he's no longer an exception and now he takes over one real practice squad spot and that means you have to cut somebody from the practice squad I believe. Obviously then that means that means go sign a go sign a kicker, another phone call here at 11 at 1130 at night jeez I'm telling you all day people just hearing my name on radio all day today that like you guys said he says hey Pat we're living a nightmare Bill Belichick is coming the Miz has spoken Belichick is coming. Also interesting to see him lurking around there in Philadelphia on the field in South Philly in his suit as a as Nick Siriani coaches the team and the guy that his owner flirted with this offseason is there working as media right He said enjoyed you in the Giants space on X last week I enjoyed that as well that was a lot of fun. D says need Josh McDaniel's to come with Bill as OC oh boy that'd be interesting. Your boy Harvey says it doesn't make sense to have a kicker on the practice squad if you don't have confidence to elevate them when necessary. How does that make sense exactly totally agree. And like I said Harvey if you have confidence in Jamie Gillan then you have confidence and he kicks for you if Graham can't. But you can't say you have confidence in him and you clearly don't have confidence in the timmy and then Gillan misses a kick and suddenly you're not going to kick the rest of the game. I mean what are we doing. Most says another thing why why did they keep feeding neighbors the ball 18 times they have other receivers get them involved. Well they have less confidence in some of those other receivers clearly namely jail and Hyatt. Also like I said yesterday schematically the commanders were giving neighbors to them like they were they were taking away the deep ball neighbors they were 0 for 4 targeting neighbors 20 yards or over. So that was interesting that you know despite neighbors going off having all those targets and those yards and catches that they weren't able to unlock it down the field still, which is something that they're really trying to hit. But you know I agree with you Mo you can't live like that I think with a point made earlier about I think maybe it was D kids saying that Jim Schwartz is not going to allow that to happen you know you're just not going to see a lot of situations where like they if they if Washington had just played like a cloud zone, they would have been able to prevent the giants from completing those types of catch and runs that neighbors was getting, but they insisted on running that man to man cover one. You know and letting neighbors kind of make those catches 564 yards and make a move and get a few extra get several extra yards on a catch and run I mean they were just given it to them so I think for one game I understood why they were doing it. Mel is good to see you always great to see you to see me says good for you Pat getting all the getting all the love today on the radio. Thank you a to miss as Princess is the goat miss as Giants prediction 1917 Giants upset when I also called Raiders upset win over rate Ravens interesting this 1917 okay we'll keep an eye off for that. So miss is going to get a big pat on the back of the Giants upset the Browns next week because not many people calling that one. Saquan looked good in green have no ill feelings towards him giants rms a to z me says, yep and now Saquan has to answer for a big mistake on his end so always comes around goes around comes around all the way back again. D pat says pat how come no one talks about cave on slow starts every year no cardio in the off season. I honestly D I think it's accepted right now that he has under delivered compared to his draft stock I think it's almost like understood at this point until he shows everybody differently. I think that I think that's part of the reason why. If they would have waited a week they could have gotten Steve Wilkes Pat interesting point. Let's see. Mel says on defense no they are not setting the edge and the defensive ends and linemen are not plugging the gaps check the tape it's full force to the quarterback opening up huge holes past the word we are stronger than what is showed. Yeah okay so Mel's to your point you're kind of confirming the tape what as you're watching the tape. When they say we're stopping the run on the way to the quarterback you're confirming that they are. They have their eyes on in the backfield and they're trying to stop the run while committing to rushing the passer and putting the pressure on the quarterback and it's not. It's not providing the results they need. All right let's see who else is in here Socrates says. Socrates says good job to a live for winning the trivia I can think of answers because I can't think of answers because every time I think about the Giants I see in my head is fumbles interceptions and losses. Oh geez says Barkley has to be happy to be on a real football team yeah although listen it gets negative and nasty and Philly when games like tonight happen I mean the Giants. The Giants were showing that you know or I'm sorry the Eagles showing especially on like on defense. They are not any good right like they are the Eagles defense is not very good. And, and you saw like Daria slay got toasted for the touchdown there at the end the go ahead touchdown for the Falcons and the game winning two minute drive. They went right down the field on the Eagles just as easily as the commanders went down the field on the Giants the other day. So that was startling to see and then listen, Saquon has dropped passes and key spots before I remember a wheel route Shermer called in Chicago. That was a big moment and Saquon dropped it would have probably been like a 65 yard touchdown. He is a really good receiving back, but he also has shown a pension for those kinds of drops and so that's a really costly one there for him. Okay, you say guys, who should never see the field again DJ Davidson and Cordale Flott says D kit. Yeah it's tough because those guys are actually in the rotation. So far my entertainers says clumper lying says you're trolling is weak going to chew you up and spit you out pity the fool. This says hey Pat loved your Sunday column yeah thanks that was about that Sunday column was about like the Giants locker room, getting rid of with Joe Shane roster decisions, all of these leaders who helped keep the team together, you know. And so that's a harsh reality of, of where the Giants locker room is it's like they things are bad but they don't have the same quality of leadership and they've gotten rid of or not resigned. A lot of, of their better players right like they've gotten rid of a lot of good players. You know that contributing to the impending doom of where this could go right. Mara value stability says killer cam, and all we know there has been since Coughlin left is Mara really prepared to go through a fifth regime change in nine years. I know that the Mara's and the Giants don't want to do that that's not what they want to do, but to me. The duo in there is not representing them well in the team building aspect or in how they're presenting as an organization aspect and certainly not in the wins and lost as aspect so something in one of those areas needs to improve in my opinion. But to your point, you're right that Mara and the Giants do like they'd rather not overturn it all. So that's why like a table firing with Shane staying is a possibility and what you know that is their tendency. Yeah. Listen, I think if they're own for and they lose really badly to Dallas on Thursday night and week for and the stadium is like it was in week one. You know that that could be the that could be the first moment where with table where it's like okay, like if the offense is bad the fans are leaving the fans are booing, and it's that ugly, you know what I mean that's the first game that I think it's, you know, probably reaches the the comes to the head comes to a head, you know, only a matter of time says fish I. It feels like that based on the product we're looking at on the field wish but was, you know, obviously we'll see but that that's my opinion. D kit says Leonard Taylor the third is on the Jets practice squad isn't he for D line help no he is on their active roster. So Leonard Taylor the third is on the Jets active roster. Oh gee says the Giants have been 0 and 2 10 out of 12 years with this dysfunctional Giants organization yeah and interestingly I was doing you know I was laying all the math out today. So it's also six times in the last eight years for the Giants that they've been 0 and 2 to start the season, which is really bad. This is this is the stat so the Giants, their first season with table and chain they started. Two and oh, and then six and one that was the start of the season they end up making the playoffs the next year last year they started one and one. And they ended up skidding to two and eight right and they finished six and 11. Now they start 0 and 2 and to you and me and a lot of people looks like it could continue skidding. They obviously have to stop the bleeding here, but will that happen. Yes eight to Z mean that was me with towards stop coaching Pat that was me. Oh gee says that's why Chris with bad dog doesn't like you because he's friends with all those guys that dislike you Pat. Yeah man I you know I don't care about them. But thank you. A to Z me says always keep asking the questions that the fans are asking that's what a beat reporter of a sports team should be in my opinion. Yeah to I agree especially, you know like the players associations talking about trying to like get reporters out of the locker room. And from our aspect there's a lot of reasons why that doesn't make any sense but one key is we're a conduit to the fans, you know. And teams have never been more aggressive and the league has never been more aggressive about PR wise public relations wise pushing a narrative that is either half true or quarter true or not true. Like it's just a reality public relations is like a booming business. So my job is to say no no no here's what's really happening right to the best of my ability so you know. We'll fight that tooth and nail to the end. XST says I feel bad for Andrew Thomas and Dexter Lawrence they deserve better than this organization. Let's see. A to says I have a feeling Mara will instruct everyone to do whatever they can to end up with the Manning kid they have no plan just a very specific vision of glory. Yeah the tricky part is that's not this coming draft is the next draft so how do you plan for that that's tough. Let's see XST says no reason to watch any more games this year I'm going to enjoy Sunday fall festivals instead out but understandable and Sunday fall festivals are enjoyable. You agreed. Ken says if say one doesn't win a Super Bowl with the Eagles he has no post career team identity. I see what you mean yeah I mean nowadays kind of jumping from team to team obviously in sports is more common than it used to be Ken so it's not. You know I mean you and I like we grew up with guys playing on. You know the same team forever or their whole career is much more rare now so I think it's totally out of the ordinary but I hear what you're saying which is like. He had a certain thing set up post career in New York, and now given how that transpired him going to Philadelphia does he still have that. Where does he go where is his identity you know it's a fair point but I don't think it's as problematic for him. Given his like kind of national international brand as far as like he can still capitalize on that you know because he is a little bit bigger than than just the team he is on right. Tyler says if we won both games or even one the Cowboys are one and one Washington would be 0 and 2 that the Eagles lose as they just did they would be one and one. We could have been in a three way tie a one and one or leading at 2 and 0. And Kyler this is why the 0 and 2 start matters right like teams usually don't make the playoffs when they start 0 and 2, but this is why these results matter you know losing by three losing by one a loss is a loss. You know when when your rivals stumble you have to make it up and we all know the Giants don't win off an individual one and eight against the Eagles and Cowboys the only team they've had success with in this regime was Washington now they're losing to them. So if you're not picking up ground now and then when you're playing them that you're not winning where is it going. A to Z me says watching Monday Night Football with a pattern or live stream is something I can get very comfortable with likewise a to thank you this has been really enjoyable with you guys and we're still rolling here on talking ball live. Matthew says didn't go no hide a need problem last year when he before he went on IR seems to me you have to take it with a grain of salt when he tells the team he is okay. Well they knew about his injury they he was trying to kick through it and they were party to that and then eventually after his miss caught helped cost him the Jets game then he was shut down for surgery so. Yeah listen you have to take the Giants with a great assault with anything injury related given how they've operated on in the last several years while I've been around anyway. Yeah no meds says they would might most likely wouldn't get much for cave on at the moment yeah. No meds says Joe Shane really screwed us Barkley looks rejuvenated move says Dave will needs anger management. Yeah let's see Mel says about I think cave on he is not adapting or Shane Bowen actually you're talking about Shane Bowen he is not adapting guys very versatile for his position but must watch how they're exploiting him got to use him differently to wake him up Simmons cave on on a week side blitz right so you're talking about trying to unlock on lock cave on I appreciate that. Let's see. Steven says do you really think this regime was or is in trouble yes I do. I know that I know that going into this season there was pressure on table to do winning. You know enough show enough progress early in this season that people couldn't you know look at. Like John Marin and Steve Tisch couldn't look at Brian table you know five six games in and say. You know where we've regressed we've gone right down into the basement. You know this program's not going anywhere like if they feel that way after the first stretch of this season then anything's on the board. That's why that's why it's relevant because I you know my understanding is that's a reality. Dell said I'm indifferent at this point new coaches and GM with the same which he ends with the same results. Ken Peter says Chris promote Chris Rosetti Chris Rosetti definitely seems like he has a good head on his shoulders. Stephen Heller says Joe judge was Ray Handley part two. No he was not definitely disagree there Joe judge did need an offensive coordinator who had alignment with him and who could take that side of the ball away from him. Like what Jason Garrett was not a good OC but once judge fired him and was you know had control of that along with Freddy kitchens like you know that was not that was not obviously an NFL offense that you want to run out there. But if judge had had a general manager and an offensive coordinator that created alignment in his organization. I think judge was a really good CEO head coach and I think he would still be the coach today. I think he had a lot of strengths. He just ended up taking on everything at the end and some of his weaknesses were were evident. But again was working with a terrible general manager who was the real weakness of the entire team. Jim says Pat what grade do you give Joe Shane at this point in time if the team is five and twelve any change. You know I think with a record I think it depends really on how much progress you're seeing young players in the offense make. Like if they're five and twelve but they can't protect the quarterback and they can't run the ball and they have more injuries again and there's only a hand but two or one or two players you can hang your hat on. You know then then you're fired if you're five and twelve and you made some key changes along the way and some of the young players are all starting to develop and you can kind of see the picture and the pattern on the field of as the locker rooms days together what it's going to look like in 2025. And that's how you keep your job right so that that's all those factors play into it. Killer camps as I never liked how Shane and Dave will poo poo the significance of the Giants job also I hate how they refer to players as kid it's just kind of arrogant in my opinion I hear that cam. Let's see. Steven says sick of hearing about arch man and he's not eligible is ridiculous he's not eligible until twenty six. Yeah no exactly he does not help the current regime. HZ me notes prevent defense prevents you from winning bill parcels as we saw there with the Philadelphia Eagles cousins did make that drop. 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You know, I guess at times could be making suggestions but I think at this point it's not even suggestions coming from my Kafka right this is tables offense I think it's just when called upon right provide some information or some context but I mean when I asked him what he was doing during game days he really couldn't even answer it in a definitive or detailed way. Steven says I really don't think we would have won with Barkley wouldn't have been able to put money in the O line he's a luxury for Eagles with good O line and lots of weapons. Let's say yes horrible throw by Joe and hurts to end it. Barb says sweet, we are only one game behind. A lot of a lot of enthusiasm with the Eagles lost there. DJ says say come with the game winning drop love to see it, Simeon says he still has his money Omar says giants are back in it. No men says guess what Giants could have been one and one. Let's stop hitting the panic button says as Thompson. XST says life is too short to be a fan of this team that's a pretty good way of saying it right now. The top team in the East is probably going to win eight games this year says a to No Met says sequins hands have been shaky. Jacob says I'm joking because you said table has highest odds to get fired. People think you're the one creating that narrative yeah no doubt exactly. Let's see. Mel says after two games one back long way to go got to get the right packages on defense guys plug the damn gap someone has to stay home on the run plays Riley Davidson can do more and the edges must be smarter. Absolutely. Tommy says health and wealth to all great to see you Tommy. Tommy says you like that in the Kirk cousins voice Saints dirty birds cash me out. All right that went off the rails fast. Nice. Michael says Saquon choked hurts choked Eagles choked Giants are one game down in their division come back in off the ledge. This is interesting I did not expect the fan reaction to the Eagles choking there to be that the Giants are good again that's. But I hear you the standings change yeah I hear you. Omega says we would have been in first if we won yesterday but we can still turn it around. Let's see. Tommy says giant should make this an 06 underdog season road warriors G man says knowing Shane Bowen he would probably knowing Joe Shane he probably would make a deal for Bryce. Oh yeah no so he I don't think that he's the his type or the Giants type first young. We're not tied for first because we have no no kicker says Barb. Tommy says situational football awareness and play calling must improve to even have a chance this season. Giants keep the black cloud hovering over the franchise must get back to smash mouth giants football. Let's see. Michael says giants punished the Eagles into submission I think you're talking about last year. Galis just got manhandled we can defeat these teams as long as we don't defeat ourselves I'm done with the soothsayers interesting Michael is pumped and confident. Let's see Brett says that Kelsey was giving away secrets perfect ending to that game. Let's see Tommy says if Willis feels Sam Minchu can win it's clear giants continue to allow great head coach OC DC coach play calling slip through the cracks to other organizations. This has to stop bill come come back home. Moets Olson says how great was that Eagles loss seeing their fans with their hands on their heads yeah that was a bad one man. And that says Kvon needs to quit looking in the mirror and do some push ups oops out. The jail and hide stuff is so interesting to me says big Z yeah clearly they just listen they tried to get him they tried to force him into winning that job. And he did not win it from Darius late he just not that player, and then with their alignments plus the fact that they obviously don't trust him in all situations, and there you have it. Mel says good night guys another productive chat same to you Mel is great to see you thanks for chipping in. Tommy for once as Butterfingers Barkley has dropped 16 passes since 2021 mostly NFL at the running back position cry she goes cry Montana says Eagles got cocky not kicking that early field goal. The real early one I honestly didn't have a problem with that go go to goal but I think we're seeing the Eagles not execute as well, which is interesting. Is Bell check to old to be a winning force again says Montana. I don't think so I just think he has to join a team that is closer to ready to win he's not going to be building back up you know. Tommy says doing the dirty bird singing when the Saints come marching in 06 underdog season let's go Giants back to smash mouth football Montana says if you if you were the maras what would you do for giant and YG season correction right now I mean right now I think what I would do right now well I think they have personal deficiencies that it's hard to correct Montana. What do you think I would I think they should use time and Tracy more in the running game I think he's a really good back. I think he could do it. They do have to find a way to have a competent downfield passing attack it can't be underneath stuff and as we noted earlier like teams are not going to play them the way that Washington did it did I can't believe they did. What it would be right now is they have to coach their games to protect their defense now you know. I think they have to coach you know the the running game is so critical to protecting Daniel and to unlocking play action pass game right helping the offensive line. It also is critical to if you have the defense playing like that, like they did in Washington you need to run the ball to retain possession to keep your defense off the field you know. Jackson says did you ask the question because you feel his job is at risk two games into the season or did you ask it to see what his response would be. Because my information and understanding is that this early stretch of the season if it is a catastrophe is you know going to cost in this job is that that's that's what I, that's my understanding. You know that and that he feels that pressure so that's it was just based on the information I feel like I have about the situation. I mean I definitely wanted to see his response but it was more like hey you know this is the kind of loss on the heels of last week to a bad team that is now making this a reality like that he and I in my opinion both no exists. So then it's saying like are you ready to acknowledge it and also you can usually tell by the coaches reaction in those moments whether they think they're done or not. And I think how tense and how tense he is right now like listen if you ask that and it's not a legitimate question and it has nothing to do with what's going on and you're totally off base. There's no reason to even be upset about it like when someone bristles at it it's usually that's confirmation essentially that it's close to the truth because it's like already I'm experiencing this why you're bringing this up now in front of everybody. Right are you coming after me right so like all that defensiveness kind of reinforces where it is. Tommy says Marin needs to keep table to lose another season and pick arch manning two years from now and get back to winning games that would be chest not checkers right there Tommy. Matthew says you have to figure with three NMC East coaches on the hot seat and only two possibly making the playoffs. I have to think balance check will be coaching in the NFC East next year, probably probably. Montana says Pat did you grow up a Giants fan no I did not I grew up in Philadelphia rooting for the Eagles. I'm rooting for the Sixers reading for the Flyers rooting for the Phillies all that. I grew up in Northeast Philly and you know I went to Notre Dame rooting for Notre Dame but Montana I think if you're new here. I told this story before but in my job I worked really hard over the years especially at Notre Dame like where I was a student in this fan section one one one Saturday. And then the next Saturday I would dress up going to the press box and cover the game from the press box and not be hanging out and drinking with my friends and partying and all that. And you get to a point where you know now other people warned me in the business like be careful because if you do this for a job eventually it's going to at times take the passion out of it. Right and if that's not what you want you know way that with how it's going and what you really want to do and that kind of deal if you don't you know if you don't want to miss being a fan but to me I love doing it and I think I got to the point Montana where I was covering the New York Rangers against the Flyers and I was feeling nothing right you know in the 2010 2011 whatever at that point. I knew like I had fully gone to somebody who was doing it for a job not cheering in fact. You know I cheer for the Rangers now like there's a lot of individuals is usually what I do now like there's individuals all over the place around different leagues different sports. People who I cheer for now because I know they're good people or I've become friends with them or we see eye to eye we have respect for each other. So, I don't root for a team in the NFL now it's just, you know, but like there's giants players I really like and privately like pump my fist for when they do well like stuff like that. But no, no rooting interest at this point and like that Eagles Monday night game I'm watching that from the standpoint of covering sequon like I was, you know, preparing to write actually a piece about him for the daily news tomorrow Tuesday. And so this whole drop past thing adds another wrinkled to the story of the Giants letting him go the Eagles bringing him on. He doesn't have the cape on every game it's clear right so, you know, watching it from a critical eye really if you know nothing more. Tommy says don't worry guys Pat is putting boom chaga in the locker room and team meetings giants are going to turn it around and make a real turn that's right Tommy. Thanks for bringing up boom chaga again that's what we're going to be doing no doubt hand hand him out in the locker room on Wednesday. Mr Godfrey says wish they would have hired Brian Flores karma is a bitch with the claims of not taking him serious doing interviews Why do you think they don't take minority coaching seriously Flores is better than table. I do think Flores would be a better head coach and table. That is an allegation from Flores that they did not take minority coaches seriously give him a fair shake. Thank Mr Godfrey in the NFL the reality is when you see all these searches happening in January into February whatever those conversations about laying the groundwork for where that's going, usually I've started a lot earlier than that even though they're not officially specialized prior. You know so like when a guy is an interview scheduled for a general manager position, like the Giants were having conversations behind the scenes about Joe Shane way before he had his interview, you know, during the previous season. Matt says, Pat great content as all or oh sorry moet says Pat great content as always good night everyone user unknowns as fire everyone sell the team tear down met life. So we conclude with some optimism at least of the Eagles lost and there isn't a two and no team in division, but also the Giants have to continue to show improvement to the point where they're winning games, where they actually look like a competent football team all around. There's a lot of confidence in that right now given their hard schedule but you know for one night at least a saquon drop and Eagles loss, and one and one the Philadelphia Eagles, the Dallas Cowboys one and one, and Washington one and one with the Giants the loan, oh and two team in the NFC East. Remember guys we are sponsored here by my bookie, my bookie but dot ag. That's where you want to go for all of your wins for your betting throughout the NFL season partnered here with talking ball live with pat Leonard Mondays and Thursdays and post game live from every Giants game home and away. My bookies website on the link on my profiles and my bios on Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube wherever you find me on social media, you click on that my bookie link, and then when you go to the cashier to make your first deposit. 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Montana says I've been a Giants fan so long my first game was at Yankee Stadium and Fran Tarkington was the QB that's. Thanks for all the effort on the show you got it Montana interesting. Thank you so much for being here. Guys please subscribe to the channel you'll get notifications when we go live. Also break news and post content on my YouTube shorts as well as throughout my social media it's PL on NFL everywhere Instagram tick tock YouTube threads and then on X or Twitter. I am P Leonard and YDN like the New York Daily News. I am the New York Daily News NFL Communist and Giants Beatwriter. Also with the Believe Network on the talking ball with Pat Leonard podcast and talking ball live hit those likes before we get out of here if you didn't already. Michael Knight says good evening Pat just got home from work. Oh Michael is just jumping in Michael we are just wrapping up. But Michael drop a comment in on the YouTube page. I'll answer that or you could DM me on Instagram there and I'll answer your questions for you there. But remember we will be live again on Thursday night Thursday night halftime football and so we'll be live at halftime of Thursday night football this week and then post game live from Cleveland on Sunday. Also look for first down with Benny Fowler which I will be publishing on the YouTube channel and on the Believe Network audio Apple Spotify wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to that we go over action from throughout the NFL that's a great weekly spot that Benny Fowler is doing with our show now Super Bowl champion former NFL wide receiver and more content to come including our Creator Series continuing to get started with authentic as a guest Montana says first time chatting thank you thank you Montana. Thank you for everybody especially the Super Chatter's Lou Big Mike Elias Matthew. Big Mike D kit no Mets and Lane everybody who paid in for those super chats. Remember the best way to support the channel is to buy a bag of boom chaga login create that account do that first deposit with Pat's picks on my bookie. Go to estate 98 coffee.com estate 98.com backslash talking ball and get that special buy one get one free deal. Those are the best ways to support keep us going so we can keep growing this show and this community that you guys have dedicated so much of your time and energy to I'm so grateful. I really appreciate it and I can't wait to do this next time on Thursday take care. If you liked the show please take a moment to rate review and subscribe it really does help the show to grow. Thank you for listening. (audience cheering) [ Silence ]