(upbeat music) Take a deep breath in and then breathe out. Did you know that conscious breathing can significantly decrease stress and anxiety? And if you're wanting less of those in your life, then meditation is key. The Meditation for Women podcast provides free daily guided meditations covering just about every topic so it's easy to press play and let yourself be guided to more calm and clarity. Listen and follow Meditation for Women on the Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. (upbeat music) ♪ On the creative journey ♪ ♪ It's easy to get lost ♪ ♪ But don't worry ♪ ♪ You'll lift up ♪ ♪ Sometimes you just need a creative pep song ♪ Hey, you're listening to Creative Pep Talk, a weekly podcast companion for your creative journey. I'm your host, Andy J. Pizza. I'm a New York Times best selling author and illustrator and this show is everything I'm learning about building and maintaining a thriving creative practice. (upbeat music) Today on the show, we have animator, illustrator and author, Sanjay Patel. Many of you probably know him from his Oscar nominated Pixar short, Sanjay's super team, which was the short before the movie The Good Dinosaur. I remember watching this short in the movie theater and just being like, whoa, I have never seen a story quite like this that mixed kids media and some religious myth in a way that was so open and creative and it felt risky and beautiful. And I was just super taken aback by Sanjay's super team. And when Sanjay then later became a vocal internet supporter of my project Invisible Things, I was just like, oh my gosh, I do not feel worthy of this. And we've kind of stayed in touch ever since. Sanjay's latest project is an animated kid show called Gee Happy, G-H-E-E, which reimagines Hindu deities as children who discover their divine powers through daily adventures at Gee Happy Daycare Center. It captures some of the same spirit that was infused in that Pixar short, but it also has a little bit more of a preschool focus that is equal parts really, really creative as well as just super funny. Also, massive shout out to Joey Chu who worked on the show and you can definitely see his brilliant style shining through this project as well. And I know a lot of you will be fans of his work and get a kick out of that. Sanjay also has a lot of great books out there, including some gorgeous new board books based on the show Gee Happy from my publisher, Chronicle Books, highly recommend you check those out if you have toddlers in your life. And I just got to say, I was so on fire after this chat, I was just beaming. I couldn't contain my excitement. It was just such a phenomenal chat and I can't wait for you to hear it. We touch on a bunch of juicy stuff, stuff like inspiration to pursue your creative work independently. I've kind of been on a thread of that recently because I feel like it's the future of creative stuff. And the next phase of great creative work is going indie again and Gee Happy being free on YouTube, I think inhabits that realm really well. We also talk about how to tap into what makes you unique and deepen your creative work with symbolism from your own personal background. We also talk about Sanjay's biggest lesson from all of his 20 years working at Pixar, AKA the freaking promised land of story. And it wasn't what I thought it was gonna be, but it was really inspiring all the same. Stay until the end for a creative call to adventure that I am calling cut up your green sweatshirt. That is a prompt to help you find more authenticity and depth in your creative work using your own personal upbringing and background. All right, without further ado, here is the great Sanjay Patel. (upbeat music) Against all odds, I have become someone who has learned to love planning and dreaming and goal setting and journaling my thoughts and my to do list is really important to me. Externalizing your inner world is really essential to getting out of vicious cycles of rumination and getting past those really difficult obstacles. Some people like to do this on paper, some people like to type it up, but I also know a lot of you are iPad people. Zenia is a journaling app that is the best of both worlds and you can use your Apple pencil, right and draw, use digital washing tape, stickers, make it your own type, plan out your week, organize your to-dos. This hybrid digital journal is something I know a lot of you are gonna be obsessed with. Go check it out, download Zenia on the app store today. That's Z-I-N-N-I-A on the app store. Use pep talk, all one word for 20% off. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) I'm a believer in the idea of dressing for the job you want, not the job you have, and I have applied this to my creative practice too, which means if you want professional results, you need to present online like a pro, and that means going beyond social media and having a professional website that reflects your style and looks legit. I rebuilt my site this year with Squarespace's fluid engine and was so happy with how easily I could build my vision without coding, that when they approached me to support the show, I jumped at the chance because I love and use this product. So go check it out, squarespace.com/peptalk to test it out for yourself. And when you're ready to launch your site, use promo code peptalk, all one word, all caps for 10% off your first purchase. Thanks goes out to Squarespace for supporting the show and supporting creators all over the world. (upbeat music) - I wanted to talk to you about your latest project, Gee Happy, it's a phenomenal kids show. It's got, it's really funny and sweet, and I think it's just super great. But I feel like, and I also feel like it's creatively an interesting case study. So I wanted to see if you could start by just talking a little bit about what the show is. - Oh yeah, sure. Yeah, so Gee Happy is a preschool show that basically highlights Hindu deities as little kids that are going to a preschool and sort of creates this vehicle for, it creates this vehicle to sort of introduce who these characters are, number one. And number two, to introduce their mythology in a way that's super basic and then most importantly, like that's fun and like kid relatable. - Yeah, I think that's a good summary. And I think, I think my favorite is Kali, Kali is the goddess of war or death. Is that true? - You know, so many of these deities, I mean, here's what's so, you know, here's what's so important here is that Andy, like the tradition's been going on for like 3000 years. And so Kali has been thought of as the deity of time as well as over the eons. She's also been associated with death because time brings an end to all things as well as a renewal. And so, yeah, so some people will see more of the death thing versus the time thing. And so yeah, she kind of steals the show for me too. She was the most fun character to write for. - I have to imagine also, she reminds me of my youngest daughter, just kind of like a troublemaker. And I love the skulls and yeah, just a great character. But. - Well, maybe your daughter's this, you know? So one of the things that we're trying to go for with Kali in particular is that we have two girl characters. We have Saraswati, Swati and Kali. And so the thing that we were really excited about exploring Iowa at least was, you know, it was like two versions of little girls, but one version is Saraswati, that's very studious and careful and more importantly, or just as important, polite. - Yeah. - And Kali was everything that Saraswati isn't. And so, which is to say that she's the force of nature versus culture. Culture is Saraswati, which is fools organized. And nature is wild and free. And so maybe your daughter is less a troublemaker and more wild and free and says, "Forget the rules, I'm gonna do me." - That's hilarious. And it also relates to the birth order thing because my first born, my daughter, my oldest daughter, is very much the polite, you know, behaved one. And it's probably something about just parenting. Once you get to the baby, you're like, "Okay, go, you can just be wild and be yourself." So I don't know, it might be that going on, but they're great characters and they're very relatable archetypes. But the thing I thought was really interesting as I dove into your story was people who know your work, whether it's your Pixar short or your books, they probably would assume that these topics were things that you've always been proud of, interested in. And I gather that that wasn't always the case, at least when you were a kid, is that right? - You're absolutely right, Andy. What a great set up for my apology tour. You know, man, I grew up like a-- - This isn't gotcha journalism, okay? I just wanna hear how it evolved. - No, no, actually it's not a gotcha question, but it's a fun thing for me to be able to talk about and an important one, actually. So yeah, thanks for asking. Yeah, so growing up here in Southern California as a full-throated American, I never felt like I fit in and it just always felt a bit different and it wasn't helped for the fact that there was like the only kid in my school named Sanjay and there wasn't any Indian kids in my school. And so, the idea that I would ever, ever, Andy, lean into being brown, as if I could hide it, I was like, if I just put on enough pizza hazard stuff and know enough about the general Lee and Knight Rider, I could pass as like Andy from Ohio, you know, versus Sanjay from California and so. Anyway, yeah, it was, you know, very typical. Like it pretty much was like, I did not want anything to do with my parents' culture, let alone my own sort of, you know, cultural background. And so, you know, it took about 30 years to kind of grow up and in many ways, you know, it was really helpful to sort of do all the great work that we did at Pixar and you sort of, you know, you get older, you get bit wiser and you sort of see like, hey, you know, all that stuff that, you know, mom and dad were interested in passing down to me, it's actually pretty cool. And, you know, unfortunately, I don't think they have the tools to sort of pass it on to me. Like, they're deeply religious, I'm not, my religion is art, let's just face it, okay, and cartoons. And so, once I saw this book of Indian miniature paintings and I started to read the stories, I recognized the paintings because they sort of featured some of the devotional images that were in my parents' shrine. And so, once I saw that same image put in the context of a art history book, suddenly was speaking my language and it offered this opportunity for me to read about what the picture was showing. And so, suddenly, once I read the story about the picture, I was like, oh, wow, holy smokes, I mean, like the fireworks went off in terms of like, oh, this is a character, this is an archetype, these are stories and there's this great meaning here. And it really got me interested and excited and so, but yeah, I think when I was a little kid and for a long time, about a good 30 years, I just wanted nothing to do with my own heritage, let alone Indian mythology, let alone Indian spirituality. - Yeah, and I, you know, as an outsider, it's so funny for me looking in when I look at these images and I, you know, hear things about different religions, it's almost easier to see the creativity and the power and the presence of the work and the symbols. And so, for me, I mean, I don't know if this is the wrong term for thinking about it, but a lot of this from the outside feels like almost psychedelic. It's so multifaceted and inspiring. And so, it's funny that that maybe was unnoticed initially. How did when you, where were you when that happened with the art history book? - Yeah, so, you know, I had spent about almost like seven, eight years at Pixar at this point. And so we'd make some incredible movies and sort of done the things that I was really reaching, striving to do Andy, which was to, you know, be an animator, make great work. And, you know, there's no, you know, just talk about dumb luck to wind up at a great company, like Pixar and talk about just utter dumb luck to be surrounded by these brilliant artists and filmmakers that were making these incredible movies. But, you know, I will also say that while that was all happening, you know, the guy that just wants to draw had never changed Andy. And even though we were doing computer animation, I was still very obsessed with drawing. And so I was always looking at art history books, looking at art books, not necessarily film studies, actually. And I remember being in Irvine, something California, and my ex-wife was getting a haircut. And right next to the salon, there's a bookstore. And yeah, sure enough, I was poking around. And, you know, the thing was is that you sort of have to be ready for new inspiration. I would say that's the key thing. The information was always there. The art history chapters were there and books that I had in college. It's just I wasn't interested in them, right? And so suddenly after sort of, I don't want to say somebody who grew up, I mean, you know, sort of had these great successes with these movies, I was looking for new inspiration. And so now I was suddenly interested in less of movies, less in cartoons and interested to go back into the well of art history to see if I could draw up new inspiration. And so yeah, in this little bookstore, I found this book about, I think it was called "Mits from India" or "Hindu myths." And yeah, I recognized the imagery. And I was like, you know what? Suddenly I didn't have an allergic reaction to the psychedelic imagery or the sacred imagery, really, that my mom and dad had. And again, it was framed in the place that I love, which was, you know, my parents like to go to the temple. I like my temples were bookstores, you know. - Yeah. - And art books. - Same. - It was just the right context at the right time of my life, really. - And were you aware of like, did it feel like a moment at that time? Because I mean, it seems like so much of your journey since then can be pointed back to that bookstore. Is that, is that real? - So, you know, I would say it's less about the bookstore and I would say all of my journey is really pointed back to my parents, right? - Yeah, sure. - You know, it's like the bookstore was just a catalog, or it was just a place where it gave the same information that my parents were trying to share with me in a different context. So, you know, the thing I'd like to say, and I really believe in Andy, and the reason I've been able to sort of commit myself to the work that I'm, that's so inspiring to me is, to me, like, you know, a subject might change, things that I fall in love with may change as well. But this sort of constancy in terms of like, this is my mom and dad, this is a base level of how I grew up, and it has really informed everything about who I am, how I came to be as an artist. And so, I don't think that's gonna change, and it's just such a deep and meaningful place for me to draw inspiration from. Mom and dad, and, you know, sort of that cultural assimilation that, it's less about the book and more about like, oh, this is the way I could honor my mom and dad and honor Golly, you know, this huge sacrifice that they made from leaving their culture, coming to a different culture for me to ignore it, and then sort of, for me to make amends, really. Actually, it's less amends, you know, Andy, like, the thing I like to say is, you know, it's like, my parents are trying to give me their hand-me-downs, you know, it's like the, or like their favorite, you know, possession, but it's like, you know, I just take it as like, you know, it's like their favorite code or something, like their faith, and it's like, that's fine, it fits you, it doesn't fit me, you know, and it's like, and the way I made it fit for me and my life was actually, it's less about throwing away their code, it's more like, hmm, what are the elements of their faith, their culture, their traditions that make sense for me, which is a storytelling, the meaning, how do I sort of remix it and recontextualize, redesign it, like, as we do as artists, to make it fit for my context, for my generation, for my, you know, insane psychology, and so that's really been the work is respecting and honoring this thing that, you know, was so gifted to me from my parents and all of my community, and then figuring out a way to make it, make friends with all my art school and Pixar friends, like, those two communities would never overlap, you know, the Venn diagram, so it just feels like a really fun bridge to sort of take my parents' community and be like, hey, here are all my art school and their friends, I'm like, you guys should meet, you know? - Yeah, I definitely get that, especially as a dad now, I feel like if I think of my, the comparison for me as a parent, I remember when we first had our first kid, just kind of pushing, like, fraggle rock onto them and then being like, dad, no, I don't like this, but your lens almost feels like Jim Henson taking his grandparents coat and turning it in to Kermit the Frog and taking this thing that was given to them and making it their own, and it's almost like, for me too, there's like a, in terms of story, there's like a spiritual home that you have, that your culture and your upbringing and where you lived at the time and what your parents are doing, that they have this network that they put in your head and you'd love to escape it in some ways, but in other ways, it's just where so much power comes from. What is it about Hindu myths that do it for you now and why does this feel like an endless well? - Yeah, oh my God, you articulated that so well, like I love that image of like Henson, like taking this coat and making hermit the frog out, it's beautiful. - Yeah, thanks. And yeah, I did feel that in terms of the lightning bolt of like, oh, this is an endless well. And that was reading that book and suddenly seeing, sort of less about seeing and more about reading who these characters are. So it was a, it was actually a depiction of Shiva, his wife, Barbathy, and his son Ganesha, the elephant-headed son, as well as his other son, Karthakeya, the one with six heads. And it was like a really startling image, Andy, which was like, the dad is basically kind of naked and unwashed, matted hair, the whole thing, with snakes around his body. The mom is clad in these beautiful clothes and the kids are equally freakish. And so it was like, oh my God, this feels like exactly like my family, like dad is a total hermit like Shiva, you know, like wants to renounce the world. Mom is alive and wants to, you know, fill the world with generosity and food and like life. And that's symbolically what Shiva and Barbathy represent. And then here's me and my brother, you know, these, you know, Ganesha and Karthakeya. And so once I started to see that, you know, you know, you learn at Pixar, very, you know, in a very sort of deep way, stories, meanings, archetypes, characters, I just felt like, man, these myths have all of this. And it's so rich. And, you know, it's time tested as well, Andy. It's like, these stories have not gone away and there's a reason they're really good and they really have something to say. And I think the work that we were trying to do at Pixar was to do meaningful work and to do work that said something, you know, and could help people. And so it's not that I'm here to like, I don't know, prophesize or like sell a, you know, a tradition or a faith, it's not at all what I'm interested in doing. What I am interested is the philosophy behind what Shiva represents, what Parvati represents, what's Ganesha represents, the elephant head of God. Like, you know, like, what is the symbol? Why the elephant head? Well, God, he's the remover of obstacle. Why is the remover of obstacle? Well, he's an elephant. What can, what can stop an elephant? Not much at that time. And so symbolically, just said it so much. And then the more you sort of scratched on each of the archetypes, the deeper the well kept going. And so, yeah, I don't know. It just felt like here's some ingredients that my friends would never have access to because it's just so often, almost 99% of the time is just locked up in, you know, in, you know, sort of arcane text or, I don't want to say religion's not fun, but just in a very serious kind of context and I don't know. And to me, I just kept seeing it as stories and great characters and really just timeless meaning. And I just kept glomming on to those things as my North star and, I don't know, so long as those three elements are there, I just feel like it's really important to continue to remind people and to share. And again, make in into versions where, you know, like you and I and our kids or our colleagues can, you know, find a way in, you know? - Yeah, and I love what you said about seeing your family in it because that's kind of a middle ground to how I was experiencing the show where... And I wondered if you had this in mind. I'm really into like Jungian psychology and then also IFS is kind of a different exploration of the same idea, the eternal family systems of the mom and dad in your head and all of these characters. And I can see these different entities within me. And I love that you're tapping into a universal thing. Like you said, they're time tested. So you have the macro of the out there in the universe, the middle of the family dynamics and then the micro of inside you. So there's this universal side to all this stuff and yeah, it definitely is super rich. Was that on your mind as you're making these different things? - Yeah, for sure. I was very excited once I started to discover that. That wasn't at all apparent when I was growing up. My parents didn't really have the language to sort of share the philosophy. They had the rituals. - Sure. - And oftentimes, you know, the rituals can kind of overtake these great, kind of, you know, meaningful like philosophy. And so I started kind of going backwards and I started reading more about the philosophical intent for the artists to inspire these sacred images. And so again, I was like, oh, this is incredible. And again, you know, for me, it's always like, oh, how does that fit for me? And why is it useful to remind people? And to me, you know, it just felt like it's so important to show the Hindu pantheon is wonderful in my opinion because it just has all these, you know, perfectly flawed, you know, sort of symbols, you know? Like Shiva's not perfect. Parvathy's not perfect, Ganesha is imperfect. And in that way, they're so perfect because they embrace these aspects that are within all of us. So we all have aspects of wanting to retreat and, you know, kind of be a hermit. There's also aspects that we want to nourish and be in the world and, you know, as well as become a, you know, obstacle remover as well as, you know, be sort of God of war, like Kritika had. So I just feel like all these energies, all these personality types are within us all and deferring degrees. And seeing that sort of reflected in these myths and seeing how these characters used, tapped into, you know, Kali's energy or Swati's energy to tackle a certain issue, at least in the Gigod's episodes, was just so fun. And I thought would make a really fun way for both adults as well as kids to like, oh, I see what this character's about. Oh, I understand what this, you know, where I could use a little Swati Power, where I could use a little Kali Power, you know? Yeah, yeah, I love that. And it also reminds me of in the first episode, it kind of explains why they're called the Gigod's. And I love that you're saying this thing of, you know, they're not perfect, they have all these like complexities, which is really unique, I think, to the Hindu mythology because that's not always the case and other, you know, the Greek gods kind of have that, but, you know, the Jewish history is a lot more like, this is the perfect one and we are the imperfect ones or, you know, whatever, something in between there, I'm not a scholar in Jewish studies, but that's kind of the vibe that I get, at least maybe in the manifestation of modern day Christianity that kind of built on that. But again, not an expert, but it seems unique, but it relates to, I really picked up on something, powerful and valuable about the name of the show. It kind of got me into this mindset of positive psychology, seeing yourself as, especially your kids, is not having that being good inside, that kind of thought process. Could you explain a little bit about what the name means? Oh, yeah, sure. So, yeah, you know, that was definitely the first question. When we took that, when we were first creating the show, we sort of shared it with some colleagues in India and they're like, so, it shows great, totally fine, but why are they called gigas? You know, most people in America might not know the word ghee, but in India, ghee means butter. It's like calling them butter gods. It's like, what the heck are, why are you calling butter gods? And so, you know, the explanation I gave in the show is slightly different than the one that sort of I experienced, which was, you know, my experience with ghee was sitting next to my father every morning. You know, the rituals that are, you know, my father sort of practiced, that I was sort of forced to participate in practicing as well, was, you know, every morning you sort of wake up and what do you do? You turn on the light, you know, you feed yourself breakfast and you get your self-dressed. That's exactly what he would do for the Hindu Ds, these little stone statues in his shrine. He would light a dia. He would offer them flowers, he'd offer them food, but it wouldn't just any kind of light that he would offer. He would offer a lamp made with ghee. So, ghee is purified butter. Basically, you boil it and you get all the impurities out. And so, I like this word ghee because it sort of also reminded me of be happy, ghee happy. And the meaning for me meant this idea that, you know, there's just a lot of stuff that you don't need to, you know, it's this idea when you boil things down to its essence, you create ghee. And the essence of these little deities that are pure and perfect, just like all of us, really. And anybody that sort of tells you otherwise, I don't know, it just makes me sad, you know, we're all sort of these pure, luminous, pure, perfect beings, in my opinion, especially little kids, I'm sorry. - Yeah, totally. Yeah, and I love that. I think that is a great thing to build on and put out into the world of preschool television. I thought that was fantastic. (gentle music) - A lot of creators have this journey of leaving home, going out into trying to belong in a different world. So for you, it was animation and then Pixar. And you really got to do the work to belong. That's a big part of like getting the chops and all that stuff. But sometimes that process can really kind of grind you down to lose your flavor of who you are. And so I know a lot of artists get stuck on this moment where they want to start incorporating things that are different about them, but all the things that are different about them come with like self-consciousness. And so I imagine as you were moving through some of these stories, things like, I remember seeing Sanjay's super team and just thinking, I've never seen anything like this in a, on the big screen like this. And it was incredible. And I thought, you know, if I were in your shoes, there had to have been some hurdles moving towards that, right? So do you have any insight about like, when artists are finally like, I want to be my own thing, but not like that, not like the way that's actually me. You know, do you have anything you can speak to on that? - Right, it is a good, absolutely right. It does feel like every artist will kind of hit that, not hit a wall, you know, like it almost, you know, like the words that we use, like hitting a wall, your feel stuck, all these words that we sort of use almost kind of imply that it's a very negative place versus like, yeah, I like the Kurt Vonnegut thing, which is like, you know, it's the cracks that let the light in to let the life grow, really. And so it's the, stuck is a signal of, actually you're ready to grow. It's not that you're, it's not a pain, it's not a bad place, it's actually a signal that it's like, oh, you're actually willing, you're ready to keep growing, you know, and so in terms of tips to sort of get to how to manage that, yeah, like number one, think about, you know, see that and receive that as a signal that, you know, there's more, there's more in store for you, which is exciting actually. But, you know, I do think in order to do more, like just like you're saying, even to get to that first stage of like Pixar trying to, you know, sort of emulate your idols, you do have to do the work, which is to say, by being in the mentors, you know, by being in the master's workshop, it does afford a lot of time to sort of learn their, you know, their techniques, master their craft. But part of that is to also master who you, what you're about, you know, for every artist, you sort of have to do that self-work, like you're saying, that union stuff. - Yeah. - You really have to do that internal journey to get to the next place. And so, you know, I found that some of the tips I'll say is it does help sometimes to think back at the places that you were ignoring, the places that you were ashamed to look. Those are good places to, I mean, I mean, I guess in the union work, it's like shadow work as well, you know? - Yeah, yeah. - And it's like, it's kind of rich, I mean, it's perfect for artists, musicians, all of us. It's like, that's a deep well to draw from in terms of, now you're in a stronger spot, you've learned your trade, you actually have the courage now to kind of look at the monster, look in the shadows to see what's there. And it's not that I was trying to like, "Oh God, this is a brave act, I wanna look in the shadows." It's more, I was looking at the things that I couldn't avoid anymore. I couldn't avoid this past I had. I couldn't avoid my skin, I couldn't avoid my name. (laughs) And yet I was trying everything in my pair of Andy to avoid it. And so I don't know, I know that's kind of head-trinky, you know, but I do feel like to get to that next place, it is more of a head game and you really do need to kind of go internal to not just master your trade, but now master yourself really to figure out what more can you share and what kind of good you could do in the world and how you will be able to sustain it for the long term really. - Yeah, and I also acknowledge like, you know, sometimes I think when you go to art school, they should just have like one of your prime staff should just be a therapist because you're opening up these doors, you don't know what's gonna come out. Like the further I go, the more I'm like, it's irresponsible to be like talking about creativity without a degree, 'cause this can vary, if it's good, if it's on, I think on a good path of authenticity and trying to get more of yourself in the work and be passionate about it, I think it hopefully does move. It doesn't have to be, I mean, like, I think the different levels of work that you do, some of them have more on the surface than others, that those kind of layers, no matter what you do it, you have to have some level of self in it. So I love everything you said. I wanna get to just a few quick questions. I heard you say somewhere in an interview that working at Pixar was like working at the church of story. I've said many times, I think you said your religion was art, I've said many times that my religion is story and I, you know, I really do mean it. We don't have time to get into it, but that is what I think. So it's kind of my spiritual home. With your time at Pixar, what is your biggest takeaway creatively or even story related? - You know, there's so many, but you know, the thing that you cannot avoid when you're there, you see it firsthand every day is, man, people work hard. And you think you're working hard, people at the top are working triply hard. And it was a great, and it's like, it's not that I was like, oh, wow, people, people work really hard in this business. It was more like, oh, when you see your leaders and how in terms of what they're doing, in terms of elevating their game and elevating the craft, you're like, okay, it makes everybody inspired to elevate. And you know, a great sort of example of that was, I remember we're working on "Incredible's One" and "Bradburg, Perilient", incredible filmmaker. You had this incredible movie that we're all sort of just blown away by. The studio had never done anything like it, really. And the studio had shared it with Disney and Disney was like, we love the movie, but here's the only note we have is basically like, you know, all that stuff with the family arguing? Like, if you just get rid of that, we're fine. And you know, Brad, like, you know, you could just sell. He was crushed because, you know, it's like, that's the reason he wanted to do that. He doesn't really care about superheroes. He cared about the family psychology and the family dynamic, really, 'cause he was sort of experiencing that in his own life. And so it came to this point where, you know, to get rid of the family argument, or sorry, the reason Disney wanted to get rid of it was that it would take the rating to, back to a G rating versus a P G, and that meant money. And so, you know, Steve Jobs was in charge of Pixar at that point, and they showed the movie to Steve that explained the notes and they basically said, like, hey, we take this out, we'll make more money, basically. And, you know, he as a leader said, I don't, you know, I wasn't there in the meeting, but what I know is that he was crystal clear. He's like, don't change a fucking frame. He's like, we're not here for the money, we're here to make great art, and this is great art. And when you have leaders that are operating, not just at Brad's level, but at Steve's level, it's like, you create a cult, man. It's like, we're in for the bro, like, yeah, we're down. Yes, you know. - Yes, absolutely. And it's so, I mean, it's so rare that someone with that level of power has that level of creative vision. It's, I mean, what a gift to be in that process. I'm sure it also felt like a grind sometimes. But, yeah, I'm very-- - Well, I mean, one thing, if it was-- if you were alone in the grind, that's one thing, but everybody was, you know, and the grind was meaningful. The movie was a good movie. Every movie, like, it's a meaningful grind, 'cause it's like, oh, we're not just trying to change the color of the shirt, we're trying to get the story, right, you know? - Yeah, absolutely. - And continuing to try to push every brown to be possible. And so, you know, it just left this deep, deep sense in me, like, stop complaining, sit down, muscle it, do the work, continue to do the work, shut up and just do the work. - Yeah, and I had just one other question and it was related to, I've seen if this is kind of a roundabout way to get in, but I've seen a few indie bands that kind of blew up and then they were on major labels and then they've gone back to releasing their own stuff. And it felt like watching that has felt really good and necessary, like, I'm like, oh man, I think we lost our way there for a minute and it's felt really good. And I don't know the ins and outs of how Gee Happy materialized. But I know that it seemed like it was gonna be on Netflix and then it ended up on YouTube. And if I put myself in your shoes, I'm thinking probably a lot of headaches and stuff going on through that process. But ultimately, I was kind of super pumped to see that because I don't know if that means you have more creative control, but it's a really interesting path. So I don't know if you could just speak to what, you don't have to spill the beans on all the details of everything that happened, but what's been good about that process for you? And maybe it's not as independent as it seems, but it's an interesting path. - Yeah, no, I mean, I really do feel like this, Andy, like I felt like my childhood, I was like unlucky as kid, but now I feel like, you know, just I'm looking back and I'm like, man, I'm the luckiest kid ever. Yeah, Netflix, absolutely, like, you know, created this show, we worked on the show together and it was just like the biggest gift in the universe that I got to make this the show of my dreams. And then, you know, just again, the universe is just working for me, brother. The idea that, you know, you know, I mean, most people might not know this, but like, you know, in terms of Netflix being, you know, I always wanted the show to be for everybody always, you know, everything that I've always done, like even my books, I always wanted to make sure that they're like affordable, really. And, and so I, you know, at one point, I was selling kind of original art and I was like, I'm not gonna do that. Like when I was a little kid, I had like about a quarter and maybe 50 cents and I could like get some like, you know, lemonheads and some slurpees. And so I just felt like I really wanted to make sure that the work was, you know, for everyone and, you know, affordable, really. And so in the third world, Netflix is a really expensive product. And so the idea that, you know, you have this great work, but it's sort of behind this paywall, you know, especially in a second or third world country like India. Well, you know, there's first world customers there for sure, but a lot of the kids that I want to reach there, you know, it's a very expensive product. And so the idea that, you know, I got this opportunity to share the show and make the show like with the best budget on the planet. And then essentially give it away for free on YouTube in a way that I got to absolutely control. And my God, Andy, I got to absolutely control and it's absolutely an independent thing. It's me alone sitting here, just like you're seeing me. - Yeah. - And you know, it's just a best gift because, you know, I'd sort of been in these kind of ivory towers and these walled off gardens, beat up Disney or Pixar or Netflix. And, you know, quietly as any parent knows, there's this thing called YouTube. And I've seen it with my two boys. It's like, they love YouTube. And while, you know, there's sort of, you know, there's corners that are dumpster fires, they have learned so much and have been so entertained and so enriching in their lives in terms of this incredible library, that the idea that I got to put my show in this place and be forced to sort of learn it and to force to sort of become independent again was just, yeah, it's just a best fucking gift, man. - Yeah, man. - I learned a ton, dude. I learned a ton. It's so great. It's for everybody, you know? - I love hearing that. And I also think that I'm sure you wouldn't trade your journey. There's so many people that would love to have had experience in those different places. But I still think it's incredibly inspiring to think, the thing you pointed out is like, where do kids watch stuff? YouTube. And guess what? Not everybody has a team, not everybody has all the resources, but you can make stuff for YouTube. And that's where kids are finding their favorite things. And the worst things, like you said. So you got to be careful about that. But it's a good disclaimer. But I thought that was really brilliant and a really interesting kind of development in kids media. 'Cause I hadn't seen anything quite like that. - I know some things have moved to YouTube, but yeah, it was really fascinating to watch that happen. And it looks like there's been some really great response on there, too. - Yeah, the big thing I'm excited about is trying to get dubbed versions of these shows. Because as you know, as a preschooler, language is tricky, especially if it's subtitled in different regions. So I know YouTube's coming out with some new sort of dubbing tools. So I'm hoping that can create a way to sort of share these shows. You know, wider. But yeah, man, it's just a really fun time for creators. You know, the thing I'm looking forward to, you know, as an author and now creating content for YouTube is just figuring out a way for, you know, I just feel like musicians, artists, we just feel like there's got to be a fairer trade in the exchange that we're doing. And I do feel like most societies would see that and want that. And I do feel like technology will offer a way for that to happen, too. Yeah, I hope so. And I completely agree. The last thing I'll say is it's lingering in the back of my mind. Like, we spoke about religions. I'm not a religious scholar in any manner. Also, if mentioning Hindu imagery, a psychedelic is somehow offensive, I apologize for that. But it is so fascinating. And I don't know, just every bit that I've kind of gleaned from it has been expansive to my mind because it comes from a totally different culture that I don't have experience with. And I love even just like, I mean, the creativity of watching some of that stuff play out in the show with characters with multiple heads and these different types of beings and energies. I could tell with my youngest daughter watching it that it's just capturing her attention because she hasn't seen anything like that. So yeah, well done on that. And I can't wait to see the next stuff that you know. Andy, that's so kind. You have nothing to apologize for. I would say most people in the West, yeah, I feel like Hindu imagery came through '60s, '70s through psychedelia. And so that's completely normal, number one. Number two, I really don't take credit for very much at all. I really want to kind of highlight this if I can, just for a second. Like, the stories were there for thousands of years. The myths have been what they have been. You know, there was like teams of hundreds, both that all did all the hard work. Honestly, I'm just a schmuck that it's like, "Hey, you know what I'd be making for an okay weird preschool show?" I was like, "Let's do this thing called these controversial religious deities "and let's make them, you know, funny and cartoon characters. "Like, isn't that a great idea?" That's amazing. Kind of, I was, I did a talk when I was doing my last book tour. I was looking at something like everything everywhere, all at once. And just saying that, everyone that sees that says, "I've never seen anything like it." And I was like, "Yeah, but maybe," and that's true, "but maybe what you loved about it was how unoriginal it was "in terms of the human story, "is that it reminds me of Nicholas Cage, "family man in some ways." Like, it's this, you know, like, you choose your reality, this thing. And I think that, I love what you said, because I think it gets really overwhelming. When you feel like, "I've gotta be a creative genius "to make anything worthwhile." And sometimes I think, "Well, maybe it's not resonating "because it's too original." Like, maybe you need to go back through time and find those deep wells that have been capturing our attention for thousands of years. - Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Honestly, like, and what I think was when you do go through those wells, like, I remember Mike Maniola talked about this where he just had these stacks of kind of lore and ancient legends and he would always feel like, "I have an endless amount of things I could illustrate." But if I was to ask him and I bet he would, you know, sort of say something about this, where I'm like, "Mike, you know, you could find lore "from all parts of the world. "Why, you know, European lore and chances are "it probably had some family connection to him, too, you know?" - Yeah. - So, yeah. So while the past is like, it's all available for us, it's also finding the thing that really will sustain you because the work is so damn difficult. - Yeah. - And to be able to do the damn difficult work, as I said, as we did at Pixar, you gotta have something that it's like, "Hey, come hell or high water. "I will not give up on something this meaningful. "Be it my family's traditions or something "that like really isn't you and under your skin." (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Massive thanks to the man, the myth, the legend. Sanjay Patel, I just had a blast talking to you. I hope we get to chat again soon. Everybody go check out his free preschool series on YouTube called Gee Happy. It's G-H-E-E Happy on YouTube. And don't forget to pick up some of those Gee Happy board books from Chronicle Books, wherever you get your board books, hopefully from an indie bookshop, even. Your favorite indie shop, if you can. I just wanna real quick, leave you with a CTA, a creative call to adventure, so that you can take some action from the ideas in this episode. It's called "Cut Up Your Green Sweat Shirt." I am so inspired by Sanjay's creative take on the things from his childhood and how he made them his own. And it got me thinking about all the ways, all the little ways that I've already done this and ways that I could do more of this, because I can see some of the biggest creative breakthroughs that I've had have come from, you know, not shying away from where I'm from and how I was raised, but learning how to own that part of myself and reinterpret it in new ways. So here is my challenge to you. Be like Sanjay, be like Jim Henson and cut up your grandparents green sweatshirt that maybe isn't a fashionable green as a sweatshirt, but could make a really nice Kermit the Frog and take that raw material from your background that was passed down to you and see what ways did this shape me and what ways can I shape it into something that is exciting and interesting right now? I think that for me, it's really easy to downplay my Midwestern roots or what it was like growing up in that place and time, but ultimately those things made me who I am and there's something about the home of your upbringing that you can't fully ever escape. So there's almost a hero's journey of returning home and bringing everything you learned back to that stuff and seeing it in a new light. So that's my challenge to you. Look at some of the stuff that you might have discounted early on and start to count it for all it's worth and see if there's something that you can inject into your work today. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) Creative Pep Talk is a weekly podcast designed to help you build a thriving creative practice, but that's the thing. It only works if it's an actual practice. It has to become a habit. We make this show every single week so that your creativity can go from being a thing that you do sometimes to a creative discipline to immerse you in a world of creatives that are doing the same where those kind of behaviors are normal. One way we help you stick to this is by sending you the new episodes via email to your inbox every single week so that you never miss a week. And we often add bonus content like pictures and links and extra related stuff to the episode that you're not gonna get just from the apps. Go to AndyJPizza.substack.com to sign up to the free email newsletter and I'll have the accountability to stay on the creative path and keep this street going. And hopefully it will inspire you to do the same. And if you sign up right now, you'll get immediate free access to our e-booklet, the creative career path. It's a step-by-step roadmap for creating a project that is designed to unlock your dream creative clients and opportunities. Sign up at AndyJPizza.substack.com and let's keep this creative habit together. Creative PepTalk is part of the PodGlamorit Network. You can learn more about PodGlamorit at www.podglamorit.com. This has been another episode of Creative PepTalk, a weekly podcast companion for your creative journey. Hey, it's dangerous to go along. Take this podcast with you weekend and week out by subscribing to the show to keep you company and keep the best creative practices top of mind so that little by little weekend and week out you can make progress in your own creative practice. I'm your host, AndyJPizza. I'm a New York Times best-selling author and illustrator and I make this show not because I have it all figured out but because as a squishy creative artist type that's prone to big emotions it takes a whole lot of creativity to just get out of bed sometimes. So every week I put out the ideas that are helping me stay disciplined and stay excited and have helped me stay on this creative path for the past 15 years plus in hopes that it might help someone else or at the very least help them feel less alone on their own creative journey. Massive thanks to Yoni Wolf and the band Y for our theme music. Thanks to Connor Jones of Pending Beautiful for editing and sound design. Thanks to Sophie Miller for podcast assistance of all sorts. And most importantly, thanks to you for listening and until we speak again, stay peped up. (upbeat music) (gentle music) - Hey y'all, one more quick thing. Earlier this year I rebuilt my website using Squarespace's new fluid engine and I was so pumped about how it turned out that I have been really thrilled to find as many ways to partner with them and tell you about what they can do and bring you discounts as possible. With social media going haywire, I think having a site that feels as unique as your creative work is essential to building trust with your target audience or your clients. I have had several clients point out how cohesive and fresh my site looks lately. And if you wanna check that out and what I was able to do without any code, check out AndyJPizza.com. If you wanna test it out, go to squarespace.com/peptalk to test it out yourself. And when you're ready to launch use promo code PEPTALK for 10% off your first purchase. Thanks Squarespace for supporting the show and for supporting creative people. - It's an election year. So you've likely been thinking, why does it feel like American democracy is unraveling? It's the fault of our electoral system and it's winner take all ideology. But what if it didn't have to be that way? I'm Colin Cole, one of the hosts of the future of our former democracy where we address the question, is this centuries old electoral system really the best we have in 2024? We look to Northern Ireland and explore how they reformed their political system to overcome deep divides and ensure more equitable representation. Each episode takes a closer look at why the US could learn from Ireland's journey and what it could look like if the United States dismantled its polarizing system and replaced it with a more proportional one. Each episode examines why Northern Ireland's history can act as a blueprint for how we can overcome political divisions and achieve fairer representation. We'll take you on a sound rich journey filled with historical insights, personal narratives and expert interviews to challenge the idea of democracy and explore bold solutions for a more equitable future. So follow the future of our former democracy wherever you get your podcasts.
