Men of Hope
Welcome to Men of Hope
(upbeat music) - All right, hello, my name is Bernard Streisselberger and this is Man of Hope, a Hope Scardin Community. Today I have a guest with me, Bart Michula, hi. - Hello everybody, glad to be on. - Yes, so Bart has a six years experience of discernment with the Norbertine brothers in California, Orange County, and with the caramelites. And before discerning like back to the world, right? Right now you discern marriage and you work as a director of administration for a religious congregation in Carrollton, Ohio. And you are passionate about domestic philosophy, caramelized mysticism and theology, right? And Bart also taught philosophy and theology in different high schools and did a number of ministry roles where teaching the faith was always like one of your main goals and passion. Yeah, so Hope Scardin's spirituality is mainly focused on the bridegroom, Jesus, and meeting the bridegroom and consecrating oneself to him. As well as the scripture study of Song of Songs. So I invited Bart today because I thought he has a lot of knowledge because of his interest in spiritual theology about what it means like seeing oneself as a bright kind of which can be very weird to man. I mean, for the Hope Scardin female section of Hope Scardin and Man of Hope community, it's kind of a very easy for women to see themselves as a bride, but for us men, it's kind of weird. And that's why I thought Bart is the best person of explaining that a little bit to us. So Bart, what do you think about the whole spirituality of bride and bridegroom and how does it apply to man? - Yeah, thank you Bernard. That's a thanks so much for inviting me and thanks so much for bringing up this topic because it's actually so deep and so fundamental to our life as Christians and to our response to our Lord's call to perfect love and to our universal call to holiness. It's such a fundamental topic to understand it. And yes, you're right, you point to some complexities, especially for men to respond to that, to understand this kind of language of bride to bridegroom. So I think you framed it quite nicely. And I think it's important just to point to the fact that this is such a fundamental topic. And to understand it properly can be a huge boost in the spiritual life, can really give life and vigor to our struggles through the purifications and our striving for that deepest possible divine intimacy that we're all called to, which as St. John the Cross and many of the Carmelites and also other mystics talk about as bride to bridegroom. So it's a very good stuff you actually bring up. And so I wanted just to highlight that to start. And there's so many different angles that can be talked about to approach this. Yes, I've been blessed with some time information with the Carmelites and that was such an amazing opportunity to dive into the works of St. John the Cross, St. Teresa of Avila and other works besides them as well, lesser known Carmelites that have also developed the beauty of this kind of mystical, mystical theology, if you will. So to jump into it, it really positions this reality of union with God in a very particular way as bride to bridegroom. And the first thing to know is that this is such a transcendent reality, that this transcends the natural domain. And you just have to accept as a man that this is transcendent, a transcendent reality. You know, not just figurative or metaphorical language, it is a reality, but so above our first inclinations and understandings and perceptions of intimacy and joy and marriage and union. This is on a whole nother level. So that's, I think the very first thing to understand when diving into this topic. So yeah, there are literally so many different angles to get into this, but one thing that St. John the Cross draws out is that this is a, a very unique, very unique reality that has to do with a union of likeness as he talks about. So he makes distinctions of how we are with God, how God is with us and resides in our souls in different ways. So he talks about in a substantial union or an essential union and that would be a, that presence of God that is in our souls, regardless of if we are in the state of grace or not. You know, so we have a substantial union just by the mere fact that we are creatures connected to the Creator and we need God's presence in our very life to actually just exist. So that is discussed by St. John the Cross as a substantial union or an essential union. And then he goes on to talk about a union of likeness. And this is now approaching the reality of bride and bridegroom because that union of likeness story has to do with God's presence by way of grace in the soul. And so this is now a unity between man and God through grace, through sanctifying grace. And this reality can grow by way of the growth in charity, supernatural virtue of charity by degrees. So, you know, we first have that life of union of likeness at baptism, which is given to us. And in fact, it's very interesting because St. John the Cross talks about an espousal with the soul at the moment of baptism. So he's already using this kind of bride, bridegroom, kind of analogy at the moment that a soul receives baptism and sanctifying grace. - So he's already talking about that as being a marriage of source. - I mean, you know, it's such a beautiful reality. - Yeah, I remember also St. Bernard of Clevo, right? Which is my patron saint, like not the Kamalaite direction, more Cistercian Benedictine background. And he used the same language. He said that the soul is basically the bride mystically, right? I mean, we have to, I like what you said, that we have to transcend on a higher level here because it's, there is, with typology in the Bible, right? There's always a kind of similarity with natural things or with the Old Testament compared to the New Testament. I think the same typology or analogy is true here. There's a similar element. There's a this similar element and a transcending element, right? And if we talk about the human soul being the bride, which also St. Bernard of Clevo talked a lot, he was a main commentator on the book of Song of Song as well. And it's not just the whole Israelites and the Jews kind of being in a covenant with God, which we can translate to the church today. The whole church is the bride, but also individually my soul is the bride, right? And I like what you said, if we transcend that on a mystically higher level, then maybe it's easier for us man to also use that kind of language, right? - Absolutely. And it's, I like how you put that because, you know, it's the transcendent reality. So this thing is concrete and real, but it also that very image of bride bridegroom is being used specifically intentionally because our Lord is using those good, good images and metaphors because they are helpful for us to enter into that space. And so going back to like St. John the Cross, when he talks about that union of likeness, there's a growth of that likeness from creator to creature. And that's just the whole life of our purgations and purifications up to the deepest union that's possible this side of heaven, which is framed as the spiritual marriage or the transforming union, as other theologians would talk about. But there's that, going back to that idea that there are realities on the natural level and then realities on the transcendent level of that metaphor of bride and bridegroom, when we think about bride and bridegroom, you know, what are some truths that we can take, especially as men, that will assist us in understanding what that means, you know? So we can take ideas of the bride and the bridegroom have such a very huge and deep gift of person to person. So you have the deepest self-gift, deepest mutual self-gift of one person to another. So think about that reality on a natural marriage level and adapt that to that transcendent reality of mystical marriage, as St. John the Cross and other mystics would talk about, is think about how amazing that is. We have God giving himself to us and his entirety, and then we are called to respond love for love and give ourselves and in our entirety from our faculties, right down to our affections, or a whole entire person is brought into that transcendent reality. So that's just one little kind of angle where you can take the natural dimension and then what are we gonna receive from this deep mystical reality of spiritual marriage? And so another big thing that St. John the Cross talks about is that he talks about the permanence of union, you know, just like bride and bridegroom are called to a permanent, you know, union. The two become one flesh and they remain one, right? Forever. - Like the covenant. - So the same reality happens in the mystical life, that there's a oneness with God when you reach that depth of union of likeness and purification of the heart to be able to receive God and for you to give yourself to God. And there is a permanent union. And actually St. John the Cross talks about how there's a sort of confirmation of grace that once you reach those heights, that there is actually no turning back for a soul. So there is a union, a permanency that's also kind of appropriated from that image of bride to bridegroom. And so those are the realities that I think a man can take on and say, this is deep stuff. We have to look past the, definitely the natural and definitely path the carnal side, all the goodness of, you know, the gift of self and marriage love and all those things are beautiful, good gifts. But we have to look past those realities and consider those things. And I think that helps a man understand that this is something that worth fighting for and striving for and participating in this purification. And this should in some way excite us, not turn us off because God is just so good. God is just so good that he wants that and enables that friendship, you know, that union that is, has such a depth that it just blows our mind. It's anything we know about marriage, that union between God and soul and that perfect intimacy in the spiritual marriage transcends anything we know about marriage, it's heaven. This is what our hearts are made for, our hearts are restless until the rest of life. - That's awesome. Yeah, you're basically saying that this is a path towards holiness, right? That is the path towards holiness. And we all are in the covenant with God through baptism and continuing to grow in grace with all kinds of sacraments, right? Confession, holy mass, Eucharist, of course, marriage, matrimony or ordination, like all these sacraments help us to grow more to its holiness and to grow in that covenant with God and grow in that making ourself a mutual gift, the total gift of self to God and to one another. - Exactly. - So, and you mentioned this different levels, right? I think Teresa of Avila talks about the inner castle of different levels. You kind of like like a ladder, you're walking up that ladder and the further up, you get the, I like what you said, it's impossible to go further down because grace kind of like hinders you even, I mean, it's a possible to reach such heights where it's kind of gets more and more impossible to sin, right? And that's our call, like that's the call of all of us, right? - Yeah, interestingly too, I got to throw in is that St. Teresa of Avila did differ with St. John the Cross on that point that she thought that even within spiritual marriage, you can still fall, but St. John the Cross actually said that once you reach that union of likeness, you have a confirmation in grace and there's no going back. So they did differ a little bit on that particular detail, but yeah, it's, I think I'm gonna decide with St. John the Cross on that one. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, good, good, I like that too. And I wanna bring in Mary, right? Because what I love about the whole mystical marriage thing is, and maybe that makes it easier for us men as well, but I love is the analogy with Adam and Eve, right? Jesus being the new Adam, Mary being the new Eve, and it's kind of weird to us also to few Jesus as spouses, right? But theologically, mystically, we can actually say that, at the wedding feast of Cainar, it was not just about the marriage of the two people who actually got married there, but it was also about the new Adam and the new Eve, right? With the first miracle. - Right. - And again, at the Cross, of course, where you have Adam and Eve, and restoring what actually Adam and Eve have done. And it's so amazing St. Aaroness of Leon, one of the church fathers said that the world fell by a man, a woman, and a tree. And the world was restored by a man, a woman, and a tree, right? The tree of the cross. And so, and with that Adam and Eve analogy, you see that actually Jesus and Mary can be seen here and it's theologically correct as bride and bridegroom. - Amen. I mean, that is just so beautiful. - And the same thing here, you have to completely transcend our human thinking about the flesh, right? - Of course, Jesus and Mary were not like bride and bridegroom in a natural human understanding, right? I mean, of course, that's purely mystical, spiritual. Marriage here, which creates faith, right? And like on the cross at this wedding feast or at the cross, Jesus and Mary gave birth to the whole church, like to Adam and Eve. - Amen. - And the single soul who believes in Jesus, right? So this is totally mystical and spiritual. - Right. - So but I would love to hear from you because that spirituality with Mary and seeing as a man, maybe seeing Mary also. - Yes. - Like I think John of the Cross talked also about a mystical union with Mary, right? - Yeah. So yeah, thank you so much for bringing up our lady, our Blessed Mother, because for St. John of the Cross, he has a deep Marian character to his whole mysticism. And so the ideal of the soul is Mary, you know? And so it's so beautiful because in his, he's hanging on the cross, you gotta read his stuff. So anybody listening to this, I strongly recommend getting into his works. It's not difficult to get in, but check out his poetry and he has the romances and he has a section on the incarnation and he has a poem that describes that very reality of bride and bridegroom of God marrying, if you will, Mary at the incarnation to start, okay? That that was affected, that union was affected through the incarnation. So it's in his poem there, you gotta check it out, but he talks about the bridegroom seeking out the bride. Who is Mary? And so this sets the frame for that mysticism, that purgation, that growth in holiness from degree to degree to degree up to the absolute heights, which is the Mount Carmel, you know? So you're ascending to Mount Carmel. So this is very Carmel that you're ascending. And this is the life of Mary. This is the very life of Mary. So yeah, so St. John the Cross talks about the ideal of the soul as Mary. And she is the perfect bride. She is the perfect lover of Christ. She is the perfect orons as the catechism puts it, which is the perfect prayer. And so she has a degree of union with Christ that is far beyond any of us of what we would be able to attain to, because that's the way God willed it. So you have this beautiful, the most beautiful creature created by our Lord, the glory of his creation, the Blessed Virgin Mary, who was capable of that union. She was capable of that marriage in the fullest sense, which happened in the most deepest way like you pointed to the cross. It was her who had no self interest, no self will. There was no block. She was able to completely give herself right down to all the powers of her soul, to all the affections of her heart. Every single dimension of her was for God. And she in turn was able to receive that union from God perfectly. There was no walls. So she was the absolute heights of supernatural charity. She was espoused in a unique way to the Holy Spirit. That's a whole nother area that I'd love to discuss to you at some point. But she was living the life of the mystical, of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. There was no hindrance in her. All her actions in the language of St. John the Cross would have been divine actions. Her impulses were divine. Her actions were divine. Of course, she's still the creature, but she was so fully one with God, understood in the proper context of Catholic theology, to be sure, but she was so fully one with God. She was so united to the living flame of love, AKA the Holy Spirit, that her actions, her modality, her life was, in a sense, divine, while still remaining human. And so this kind of stuff blows my mind. It's a very beautiful angle to enter into the reality of spiritual marriage through the lens of Mary. And it's almost the lens, because going back to Carmelite, spirituality and Carmelite mysticism, the Carmelite wants to imitate the life of Mary to be able to find that union of divine intimacy with God. It's through that imitation of Mary that one is able to climb those heights. So it's just overwhelming when you started thinking about these things of who we are called as creatures to have a relationship with the blessed Virgin Mary, who has such a purity, who has such a union with God, to be able to have that door open to us, to be called to a relationship with Mary, and then to climb to God through his mystical life that he calls us. It's like that elevator of St. Therese. We don't climb at some point. He lifts us up and it's Mary in us that is being lifted up. - Bart, how can we now get there, right? I mean, I love everything you say. I think this is the Christian life on it to its core, living the common and living, like seeking that union with God and with our lady. How as a man, right? Even though it sometimes can still feel a little bit weird to see ourselves with the church and our soul as the bride of the bridegroom. But maybe in relationship with union with Mary, we can as a man see ourselves more also like a bridegroom, right? But in that mystical union, kind of, but the big question now, how do we get there? What is the hope for us, man? Kind of, what is the hope that you wanna give us? Like what tools, what prayers? How can we grow or climb that ladder towards perfection, towards holiness? What would you, like, what is the hope you wanna give us? - Yeah, that's a beautiful question. And I'm sure you have a very beautiful answer to that. And everyone listening to this have their own, they have their own stories of grace. But I think in the context of our conversation here, it's, we have to first, St. John the Cross talks about having that and kindling of love from a lesser love to a higher love. So it is important to let that love of the bridegroom be incandled because that very love will be how we get through the purification. So he actually talks about it's necessary to have that incandling of love for the bridegroom to pass through the purifications. So that, I think, opens a little bit of the door here. When we are serious about the Christian life and we encounter our Lord through the sacraments, through silent prayer, through being in contact with him and the blessed sacrament. When we encounter him truly, when we commit ourselves to prayer and we're touched by his love in a sense, in a sense, we're not talking about anything physical here, but we truly are convinced of his love and goodness for us. Then when we have that first movement and we want to commit ourselves to him, then we have to respond love for love. And so we start making time for prayer. We start making time for going to confession more regularly, making deeper examination of consciences and giving ourselves over to God's free gift of purification that he offers to us through the sacramental life, through a committed prayer life. And then, as St. John the Cross, we talk about entering into the nights, you know? So there are the active nights and there are the passive nights, but when we start knowing God's love, we start wanting to love him back and be with him in a deeper way. And what that means is that we need to start letting go of so many of the things that are in the way of that, even the good things, even the good things that we enjoy that are legitimate to our happiness, to let go of even those things. So we talk about the active night of sin. Yes, with nights, you basically mean a kind of a darkness, right? Like a kind of like not feeling God in prayer or kind of like a dryness or desert time or maybe different trials that we can face in this world, right? Which can become a night of the faith or, yeah. Yes, yes, exactly. Like letting go of the satisfactions. You know, this is how St. John the Cross will talk about it. Letting go of the satisfactions that we have, that, you know, are, that we enjoy on different levels of our sense. So letting go of certain earthly joys, but also spiritual joys. Yeah. And just having God alone. And so if you ever seen the Mount, the sketch that he has of Mount Carmel, he has a mountain and he has a picture of a couple paths. One to the right, one to the left and one up the mountain. And the one to the left or whatever, I can't remember which one is which, but the one path goes toward the goods of the earth, you know, like, you know, rest, pleasure, security, all these things that are legitimately good for our human happiness. And then there's another path that goes to the goods of heaven, you know, spiritual goods, joys and so on. I can't remember all the whole list that he offers right now, but those are legitimate goods that we desire, honors, and all understood properly. But he's saying, enter into the night by letting go of natural goods and spiritual goods and walk down the middle path. And what he has on this path is nada, nada, nada. You know, his famous nada, nada, nada, which is the Spanish for nothing, nothing, nothing. And so we're not seeking anything but God alone. Anything but his honor and glory. So entering into the night is intentionally step by step, letting go of these goods. So, you know, denying our senses, entering into a life of mortification, you know, not choosing the tastiest things to eat. Not that they're bad, but because we're trying to allow our hearts to orient themselves to God more perfectly. And that doesn't mean we can't enjoy those things, but there's a purification that's required there to enjoy them even more by enjoying them with God. But there's a profound need for that purification considering our original sin and the woundedness that we all have. You know, we're so wounded that these purifications are necessary to orient them to God. So it's a night in that sense that we're saying no to those things to let God's life, which is so transcendent, it's the theological life of faith, hope and charity. This is beyond our senses. And so it's a night. - Yeah, and it's also the path of the cross, right? Because, and I mean, Jesus wanted, like that's the huge challenge for all of us. When Jesus says, if you wanna be my disciple, which can also mean if you wanna stay in the covenant with me, if you wanna pursue that path of mysticism, spirituality, holiness of union with me, right? If you wanna be my disciple, you have to deny yourself and take up your cross every day, right? That's the middle path kind of, right? - Yeah. And what I, I mean, I heard that quote from Father Mike Schmitz. I don't remember, he was quoting another priest, but I don't remember his name, his name. He was saying, you know, in relationship of prayer and sin, it's impossible for prayer and sin to coexist. One will be the other, right? And that's even if we walk that narrow path of dying oneself, of spiritual darkness, the path of the cross, if we stay to prayer, if we stay connected with God through the sacraments, prayer, like sin is going to be killed on the way, right? Like we will die to sin, we will die to the world, we will die to our selfish ego kind of, yeah. - Amen to that, that's so perfectly St. John the Cross as well as right in the ascent of Mount Carmel, he draws out that very important fundamental principle, and he brings it out through the Aristotelian tymistic axiom that two contraries cannot exist in the same subject. And so he comes back to that axiom that it's either God and his light or darkness. So we can have our disordered affections, our disordered attachments and pursue perfect union with God. We have to let those contraries, those sins and imperfections and disordered affections and everything else, they need to be eradicated, do they need to be crucified? And through that elevated and resurrected to be able to be perfectly gods, you know? To have that gift of union, we have to think about that more as like we're talking about God who is infinite, wanting to be with us who are finite. And that's the thing that gets me, the bride, bridegroom language throws me off as a man, I'm not gonna lie, it doesn't necessarily propel me. Even if I have a spiritual understanding and I know St. John the Cross's context and I know the Marian character of his spiritual works, when I think about that, that's not my go-to reference, but when I think about the greatness of God who wants to have that union, who is infinite to a finite creature and he allows me and powers me in a way to die to myself, die to my profession and sin and heal, heal my wounds, heal all my defects, you know? And he allows that union that is transcended. That's the thing that blows me away. It's like the goodness of God who wants that and allows that and enables that union to have, you know? - That's amazing. - That's beautiful. I think a man can grab onto those realities and benefit and run with that, you know? - I love it because it's truly also a process of divination, right? - Yeah. - Like we don't know who we are going to be in heaven, but we will be like a specific vision. We will never be God, but we will be like him. Like we are going to be divinized and through that union with God. I mean, no eye has ever seen, no ear has ever heard. - Exactly. - God has prepared for those who love him, right? And so I think that's a challenge and that's yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah, even the whole language of Braikum is sometimes a little, you know, bumpy, like a bumpy road for men. But I think that the mystics here give us a wonderful language. - Exactly. - This is phenomenal. - Yeah, exactly. I think you hit the nail on the head there. So that was it, right? - Yes, yes. - Awesome, Bart, I'm so grateful for you. I think you have answered all these questions wonderfully with your knowledge of the Kamalite mysticism and the great mystical teachers. - Yeah, I'm very grateful for you. Thank you. - Thank you so kindly. - And I hope to see you soon again. - Thank you so much. Really appreciate it. - Awesome. God bless you. - Bye. - Bless you too. 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