This episode is brought to you by Lifelock. October is Cyber Security Awareness Month, so Lifelock wants to remind you to update your passwords. Using the same password across multiple accounts makes you vulnerable to cyber criminals. For comprehensive identity theft protection, let Lifelock alert you to anything suspicious and fix any issues. Start protecting your identity today with a 30-day free trial at lifelock.com/podcast. In an interview that everyone was waiting for. So I hope it lived up to everyone's expectations. I really do. I am joined by some extremely smart gentlemen to help me, some of the sharpest minds around to help me discuss all of this distinguished professor of African-American and Diaspora Studies at Vanderbilt University, Mr. Michael Eric Dyson, plus my old friend, and also with me is Garrison Hayes. He's a video correspondent for Mother Jones specializing in race history and politics, and he is a friend of the show, and I would say he is my new friend. So welcome, gentlemen, to both of you. How are you doing this evening? Very good. Thank you, my brother. Very good, too. The great legendary Don Lemon. This is our special broadcast. Thank you. We're so happy to be on this. I usually do our show a little bit earlier, but whenever there's a big event we respond to, we like to respond to it in real time as we did with the convention as well. So I'm going to ask you just initially, Michael Eric Dyson, that last time I spoke with you as a matter of fact, we were at that COVID spreading event in Chicago, the convention. How did you feel about the interview overall, and then we'll discuss specifics? Oh, overall. It was beautiful. It was well executed. It was perfect. It was pitch perfect in the sense that she was calm, she was lucid, she was articulate. She deferred to Joe Biden when necessary, asserted her command when required, and knew the facts. I was impressed with her recall of historical moments. Nobody was better than that than Hillary Clinton. I mean, Hillary's knowledge base is phenomenal, but she did a great job of doing like Hillary does, of linking historic moments, analytical prisons that allowed her to think seriously and critically about the issues. She honed in on her values. She was specific about some policies, but more than that, she's trying to make clear to the American public, I am not Donald Trump, I will be far better than Donald Trump, and I will be good for this nation. Garrison? I thought it was a strong showing as well to Dr. Dyson's point, honing in on values was great, and I think exactly the tone that she wanted to strike. I was surprised that we didn't hear more about freedom, which has been a theme throughout this campaign, but I thought she answered the questions directly as far as possible, and really assured the American people that she would take a moderate view to a lot of the most hot button issues that we see in this country. I thought her answer to the Israel Hamas question was strong and reiterated much of her stance as she expressed in her speech last Thursday, and also spoke to a critical concern of those pro-Palestinian protesters and supporters who look for the Palestinian people to have self-determination. I thought that was a strong moment in this interview as it was in her speech, and so a number of moments that I thought she was really able to capture her message to the American people at this time. Yeah, I want to hear from, and I'm going to put this in the chat, we want to hear from the folks in the chat, I want to know what you think, think the people who aren't quite so political, such political experts. So we want to hear from you guys, I'm typing this now, what did you think? So I want to really want to hear, so listen, because I like to talk to the folks, as you know, I love to go around, and I love to do man on the street interviews, I love to ask people their opinions to hear. I'm actually, I've just finished, there's a folks who were watching here where I was, and everyone said, she conducted herself very well, they thought she executed, she did what she needed to do, it wasn't too much, it wasn't too little, I think they thought it was perfect as well. Sunshine in the chat says, she's got this, Anand says, Obama 2.0, Sabrina says didn't see it, well Sabrina, we're going to show you some clips, as a matter of fact, I want to talk about some of that. This whole idea, I think that Republicans have been pushing on, and you know, Trumpsters, or the folks who are supporting the former president, that this idea that she is flip-flopping on certain issues, which is a shock to me, because politicians never flip-flop on anything. Politicians never change their minds on anything. Politicians never do this, and figure out, oh, where is the wind blowing, I'm not saying that she's doing that, but sometimes when you get new information, Michael Eric Dyson will tell you the sign of intelligent person is someone who can change their minds. So she discussed this whole idea about flip-flops, let's play it and then we'll talk about that. Generally speaking, how should voters look at some of the changes that you've made, that you've explained some of here in your policy, is it because you have more experience now and you've learned more about the information, is it because you were running for president and a Democratic primary, and should they feel comfortable and confident that what you're saying now is going to be your policy moving forward? Dana, I think the most important and most significant aspect of my policy perspective and decisions is my values have not changed. You mentioned the Green New Deal. I have always believed, and I've worked on it, that the climate crisis is real, that it is an urgent matter to which we should apply metrics that include holding ourselves to deadlines around time. We did that with the Inflation Reduction Act. We have set goals for the United States of America and by extension the globe around when we should meet certain standards for reduction of greenhouse gas emissions as an example. That value has not changed. My value around what we need to do to secure our border, that value has not changed. I spent two terms as the Attorney General of California prosecuting transnational criminal organization violations of American laws regarding the passage, illegal passage of guns, drugs and human beings across our border. My values have not changed. Michael Eric Dyson, was that an answer? Was that an answer? That was a non-answer. No, it was a brilliant answer. First of all, she pivoted on the border issue to thugs, to transnational criminals, to people who will guns and sell drugs. Her point is I'm not going to demonize the ordinary citizen trying to find their way into America. I'm not going to use the power of my bully pool pit to remain straight morally against the little guys, so to speak, right? I'm going after the big fish, so I thought that was excellent. In terms of flip-flapping, when she says, "Look, I'm still trying to get the Broadway, but I discovered I ain't just got to go on 72nd Street. I'm going to 98th Street too, and I can get there and you know what, guess what? I got a subway that can take me there too." There are many ways to get to her street, her freedom, her democracy, and her values are critical. What remains the same? The person taking 72nd, 98th, or the subway. I am still the same person, but I can open up to a different way of thinking about things. I think she did that greatly. Look, like you said, my God, it's not like Donald Trump was a Democrat not long ago. It's not like Donald Trump gave money to the campaign of Kamala Harris. The flip-flapping, now he's Mr. IVF before he was, "I got rid of dogs exclusively." Now you're kind of choisy. Of course, politicians are situationalists. They understand the context. These are situational ethics. I don't want to get all up in the nerdiness, but my mind you will talk about it's true now. It's true forever. Situations say, "Well, it's true based upon what you see and where you are." That's what politicians do, and for many of them, it is not merely exploitative. It is the attempt to keep up with new thinking, new ways, new situations, and new constituencies that they have to speak to. I think Kamala Harris did that very well. Garrison? Yeah. I thought that she did it well as well. I do wish that she'd done a little bit more handholding for the American people. The decision that the Biden administration, the Biden-Harris administration made was to continue to invest in fossil fuels to the point where they are drilling more than Trump ever drilled throughout his entire presidency. Construction is happening on a huge level because our country still relies on these fossil fuels, these traditional sources, but they also made a historic investment in renewable energy, which is to say that they're creating the necessary infrastructure for us to move to renewable clean energy like solar and electric and nuclear power in the near future. This kind of both-and approach actually think is a real win for the American people. I think it's a real win for American independence, energy independence, and I don't know if they're doing a good enough job helping the American people to see that they are making an investment in today, meaning that we are energy independent today, and we will be energy independent in the future because of our historic investments in clean energy coming from this administration. I wish the American people could see that because it will really stand in stark contrast to the antiquated, outdated approach that Republicans and Donald Trump specifically are taking too energy in this country. They chanted over and over. I was at the RNC. They were chanting over and over, drill baby drill. That was their mantra, drill baby drill. You can drill all you want, but at the end of the day, climate is changing. The effects of our dependence on coal and fossil fuel is killing our environment. It's making our children sick. If there isn't a commitment to renewable clean energy, if there isn't an investment made, then we're going to be in serious trouble and it appears that they don't have a vision for that. I appreciated the vice president's answer on this. I appreciated her moderated tone on how to get to clean energy, which is a value of hers, but I do wish she'd done just a little bit more education for the American people on this stage. We produce more oil, more energy than any other country under the Biden administration already without the whole idea of fracking. Couldn't that have been an answer is that we don't just have to rely on fracking and look at what we're doing now. We have not had to rely on, we have not been dependent on any other country for our resources, our oil, our energy, because we're producing it ourselves. That would have been, I think, that would have knocked it out of the park and moved the attention, diverted the attention to something else. Am I wrong about that? I will say I think you're right about that and that kind of the simplicity of that answer really gets to it and will stick. I think that the vice president is navigating so many coalitions. The Democratic Party really is a big ten party. She is carefully navigating the progressive element of the party that doesn't want any kind of fossil fuel investments or usage. She's navigating it really. She has a tightrope to walk, and so I think she has to do a little give and take here talking about her values, which is important, moving us towards clean energy, which is important, but also acknowledging that they're not going to ban fracking in this country, which is important for people in swing states like Pennsylvania and otherwise. The United States produced more crude oil than any nation at any time, according to our international energy statistics, for the past six years in a row. That was as of March 11th, 2024. I think it was like, well, we keep talking about fracking, but no one's talking about all the oil that we're producing. Michael Eric Dyson, what say you on that? Well, look, I think that Mr. Hayes is absolutely right in terms, and you as well, in terms of frickin' frack, so you got to- Frickin'. Frickin'. You got to, these mother freckers. So the thing is, is that you got to, as Mr. Hayes said, you're in a broad tent now. If you talked about her druthers, that'd be one thing. But if I'm a representative, and she made this clear at the end, even when Dana Bash asked her about race and gender, and clearly, she said, you didn't talk about it, but it means a lot to a lot of people, and she still didn't delve too deep in it, 'cause she knows it's implicit. It's the beginning and ending of her identity in terms of people's perception. They already got that lesson. She wants to go to something else. She wants to use that as a launching pad. So when it comes to the oil that is being produced ostensibly as a competitor to dependence on the Middle East, because the geopolitical stratosphere is so complicated right now, especially in light of Gaza, and what's going on there. People tend to forget that not only do we have these geopolitical struggles about self-determination and national self-assertion, and what happens with the relationship between Israel and Gaza in terms of a two-state solution, but you're talking about the perimeter of those nations and the detonation, and you're talking about the consequences of oil flow and American identity being either privileged or being undermined. You've got Iran on the outskirts looking at what's going on. You've got Egypt trying to negotiate what's happening in between. Are we going to be an ally to Gaza? But what happens when, you know, Israel begins to make certain moves that challenge the borders and boundaries? So all of that plays a role in terms of the oil we're producing if we generate enough independence. Balanced against our conception of what is good energy, renewable energy, clean energy for an environment. Because if nobody's been concerned, we've got to have that al gore echo in the back of our brains that this is not only about the economy stupid, it's about the environment stupid as well. So she's balancing a bunch of that stuff, I think, again, she's doing a good job, and she doesn't really show her whole cards. I mean, you know, she puts out there what she thinks. She articulates those ideas, but she is an awful canny and awful canny. Well, and look, I think at this point, one has to be because when you're in, you know, her short, if you want to say her short primary, right, she had a very short primary. And now she's in the general. I think her general started after the convention, right? So now she's got to pivot. She's got to go to the center. She's got to try to, you know, get those voters on the right. And then she has to try to keep those voters that are there on the left and then pull some from the middle in. But there should be a week in the knot and from her and an understanding from her supporters that she has to do that. I mean, that's going to bring you to the answer. But let me just jump in right quick. Do you want the commercial or do you want the product? Right. Which one do you want? Do you want, oh, they're announcing it all, bro, real G's move in silence like lasagna. Do we have to have a little wing epistemology here that you ain't got to tell everything? You know. And if you know what I'm doing, your point about wink and not, then don't make me confess. I'm doing it. That's what I'm doing. What I'm doing. She told you, doctor, she told you, she said my values have not changed, but that's what she's speaking. Cold, bro. Right. Let her continue to speak. And beautiful. If everybody sees this, I don't mean some subterranean rhetorical facade that she's now, you know, trying to, no, I'm saying that she is speaking a language of self definition of clarity. But for those who know, even Jesus said, those who have ears, let them hear. Yeah. You got to hear what's going on. When you know, you know, force me to say everything I know in order to effectively run this campaign. Yeah. Garrison. Listen to you. You know. I just, here's what I want to say too as well on this whole idea of flip-flopping, right? I just want to play this. Because remember Donald Trump says, you know, I appointed judges who were against abortion and I'm against abortion and this shouldn't be, you know, I'm going to send it back to the States. I'm going to do this. And I mean, he's, he's gone from, I'm against it to, I'm going to send it back to the States to now, Donald Trump seems like he's pro choice. And you want abortion to be a States rights issue in Florida, the state that you are a resident of there's an abortion related amendment on the ballot to overturn the six week fan in Florida. How are you going to vote on that? I think the six week is too short, it has to be more time and so that's, and I've told them that I want more weeks. So you'll vote in favor of the amendment? I'm voting that I am going to be voting that we need more than six weeks. Look, just so you understand, everybody wanted Roe v. Wade terminated for years, 52 years. I got it done. They wanted to go back to the States. Exceptions are very important for me, for Ronald Reagan, for others that have navigated this very, very interesting and difficult path. Is he sounding a little choisy? Yeah, he's sounding choisy. He's sounding ambivalent. He's sounding manipulative. Yes. He's sounding flippish, tik-tok-ish, you know, he's doing all the things right there. And again, but without any sense of integrity, right? He ain't saying my values remain the same. I am adhering to core principles that define me. Yes, the political issues may change and the public policies may be adapted, but I am main to he does all over the shop. And first he was Mr. Dobbs destroyer. Now he's Mr. Protector of women. These IVF, he probably thinks that, you know, some other initiatives, man, he don't know what that is. He can exist the ICU. No, he's not. He's thinking here at the IVF. She's like, no, you're talking about the VF, what do you think of that? Speaking of flip-flopping, I mean, and to me, it makes him sound desperate. It makes it sound like he will do it. He will do and say anything to win. It's very Nikki Haley. Yeah. Well, no comment on Nikki Haley. What I will say is I think that they know that this election is all about reproductive justice. It's all about reproductive rights. The Harris campaign and the Biden campaign before them made this about the overturning of Roe v. Wade. They made this about access to abortion. They made this about IVF. And I think the Trump campaign feels the heat. I had a conversation just last week with a top policy advisor down in Florida for the Republican side. And he shared with me that they know that they are in trouble on this issue. So long as this issue is before the American people, they do not believe that they can win. And so he has to change his tone on this, but we don't just have to look or listen to what he says. We can look at what he's done. And for the last several months, for the last couple of years, he has bragged about overturning Roe v. Wade and putting the American people in this position to begin with. And so I think he will continue to sound a little wishy-washy and he will very likely continue to avoid criticism on that switching up he's doing. But we, I think the American people know exactly what he and more than him, what we know his top advisors will lead on a department level, on a judiciary level, the appointments that they're putting forward. The Heritage Foundation's Project 2025 and those behind it, I think it's abundantly clear what they want this country to look like, even if Donald Trump is saying something totally different. - Garrison, you mentioned Israel and Gaza. This is what the vice president said about that tonight, watch this. - To end the war between Israel and Hamas in Gaza, he's been doing it for months and months, along with you. Would you do anything differently, for example, would you withhold some U.S. weapons shipments to Israel? That's what a lot of people on the progressive left want you to do. - Let me be very clear. I am unequivocal and unwavering in my commitment to Israel's defense and its ability to defend itself. And that's not going to change. But let's take a step back, October 7, 1200 people are massacred. Many young people who are simply attending a music festival, women were horribly raped. As I said, then I say today, Israel has a right to defend itself, we would. And how it does so matters. Far too many innocent Palestinians have been killed. And we have got to get a deal done. We were in Doha. We have to get a deal done. This war must end, and we must get a deal that is about getting the hostages out. I've met with the families of the American hostages. Let's get the hostages out. Let's get the ceasefire done, but no change in policy in terms of arms and so forth. No, we have to get a deal done. Dana, we have to get a deal done. When you look at the significance of this to the families, to the people who are living in that region, a deal is not only the right thing to do to end this war, but will unlock so much of what must happen next. I remain committed since I've been on October 8 to what we must do to work toward a two-state solution. Okay. It's a two-state solution, and it's obvious, she's saying that the policy hasn't changed for her. I mean, Garrison, you wait on this. I'll let you go second, because I want to hear what Michael has to say about this. She really, I think she very deftly threaded that needle at the convention. How do you think she did in this answer tonight, Michael? Oh, excellent. I mean, I can't top or compete with Garrison Hayes in his deconstruction and his analysis of that, because it was pitch-perfect, it was beautifully articulated. Look, this election is about abortion, immigration, and Gaza. So it's about babies, borders, and bombs, and she addressed those tonight. The Gaza situation is critical because we know that as president, you can feel the intensity of her devotion to making certain that the Palestinian people have a seat at the table, that yes, 1,200-some-odd people were brutally and viciously murdered. But if you watch the Game of Thrones, did you start with season seven, or did you start at the beginning? Because if you started season seven, October 7th looks like unmitigated evil from one side to the other, where terror is being exercised. But if you go back, there have been many moves made on that war-like chessboard, that military chessboard. And we have to look that chessboard in the face, so to speak, to personalize it and look at the historical evolution and development of that region, and it's so complicated. But my God, we cannot demonize Palestinian people and continue to subject them to, what, 40,000 deaths as the price to be paid and mounting for an undeniable act of terror and treachery and evil so that we do more evil. And what's interesting to me is that our Israeli brothers and sisters, and our Jewish brothers and sisters among them as well, praised us when we were being bombed. And we appealed to love and Dr. King, and we were celebrating, let's get some of that spirit involved, even in international relations, and trying to restrain ourselves from vengeance and not justice. >> Garrison these? >> Powerful. Powerful. And I think it's important to say that the Palestinian people and Palestinian activists are looking at this election, and many of the frontline organizations advocating for the people of Gaza, for the Palestinian people, have said that their preference in this election is Vice President Kamala Harris. They've made it abundantly clear. And so I think it's important to center Palestinian voices in this conversation. Palestinian voices like Representative Ruah Raman from Georgia, who is actively working to get Vice President Kamala Harris elected to continue this streak of Georgia being blue. I think it's important to center those voices because they're listening to what the Vice President is saying here, and they are in agreement. But I also think it's important to kind of inform your viewers here, Don, that while Vice President Kamala Harris and President Joe Biden are working toward a ceasefire in Doha and other places between Israel and Hamas, the former President Donald Trump is reported, PBS NewsHour reported that he is on the phone with Beebe Netanyahu, trying to convince him, urging him not to do a ceasefire deal right now because he believes that that would reflect positively on the Harris campaign. And so while the Harris campaign is actively working toward a ceasefire alongside President Biden, the former President Donald Trump is actively working against a ceasefire. These are the stakes. This is the reality of this situation. And I think this very complicated and complex issue around diplomacy and allyship in the Middle East is it is a hot button issue and it's important for us to address and face the facts of it with the grace that I think people like Ruah Raman and Vice President Harris are bringing to this conversation. It's interesting because we know that the former President, Donald Trump, really told it was an edict to Republicans in Washington not to sign a deal on immigration because he thought it would help Joe Biden. And I'm sure that that same edict goes as it refers to Vice President Kamala Harris. Do not get a deal done on immigration. And now Garrison is saying, so then, so then, so then what the American people are just sort of stuck. And so you don't think there'll be a deal on any on any of this? You don't think there's going to be a Gaza deal until the next election, Michael Eric Dyson. Is that what we're saying now? Well, look, it's clear. Yeah, I don't think for President Kamala Harris is installed and inaugurated that we're going to get a deal. I think though the pressure that she brings by exposing her viewpoints, she's very balanced. She has an undeniable love of and support of Israel and it's defense and its ability to defend itself against assault and attack, but she has an equally powerful love and appreciation for the Palestinians. And this kind of balance is threatening to those who are incapable of acknowledging either anti-Semitism, which is deeply entrenched in the culture or anti-Arabism or anti-Palestinian identities. On the other hand, where they become avatars for the bigotry and hatred of our culture so that students who are protesting are seen as anti-Semitic automatically, we've got to really address that. That cannot be true because there are many Jewish brothers and sisters who are standing alongside of their peers to protest this war. So she wants to win the peace. She wants to be able to negotiate that, but I don't think she'll have the sufficient bully pulpit to do so. Joe Biden is working hard. President Biden is working hard right now. I think everybody's putting it on hold until they see what happens with this election. Let's play some of what she said about that, and then we'll talk more, here it is. The Biden-Harris administration weighed three and a half years to implement sweeping asylum restrictions. Well, first of all, the root causes work that I did as Vice President, that I was asked to do by the president, has actually resulted in a number of benefits, including historic investments by American businesses in that region. The number of immigrants coming from that region has actually reduced since we began that work. But I will say this, that Joe Biden and I and our administration worked with members of the United States Congress on an immigration issue that is very significant to the American people into our security, which is the border. And through bipartisan work, including some of the most conservative members of the United States Congress, a bill was crafted, which we supported, which I support. And Donald Trump, God word of this bill that would have contributed to securing our border. And because he believes that it would not have helped him politically, he told his folks in Congress, don't put it forward, he killed the bill, a border security bill that would have put 1,500 more agents on the border. And let me tell you something, the border patrol endorsed the bill. And I'm sure, and I'm sure in large part because they knew they were working around the clock and 1,500 more agents would help them. That bill would have allowed us to increase seizures of fentanyl, ask any community in America that has been devastated by fentanyl, what passing that bill would have done to address their concern and a pain that they've experienced. So you would push that legislation again. I just want to ask you to push it. I will make sure that it comes to my desk and I would sign it. Just one other question about something that you. This episode is brought to you by Lifelock, October is Cyber Security Awareness Month. So Lifelock wants to remind you to update your passwords using the same password across multiple accounts makes you vulnerable to cyber criminals. For comprehensive identity theft protection, let Lifelock alert you to anything suspicious and fix any issues. Start protecting your identity today with a 30 day free trial at Lifelock.com/podcast. Terms apply. So I'm glad the producers realized that I was talking about the immigration thing. So how do you think she did on that? I thought that was a very good answer. I don't believe it takes it off the table for critics of hers, Garrison, but I think her answer was sufficient. Yeah, I thought that she answered it the best way that she could. There is a crisis at the border. We have to kind of face that fact and it will require action. Now, whose fault it is that action has not been taken is exactly what I believe Vice President Kamala Harris is making a case for. She's making the case that they try to take action and the former president blocked that action. But at the end of the day, this is the administration and they have to bear some level of responsibility. But I don't think that there is a better way to answer that question than the way that she did. And I think she also took time to talk about enforcing the law, which her critics on the right would say that she is this liberal leftist socialist communist who wants open borders and sanctuary cities. And she has dispelled that entirely here in this statement saying, wait, wait, wait, I will enforce the law. There is a law to be had and I've done that in the past and she points to her record as a prosecutor. And so I think that again, that is the best that she can do in this in this situation. Yeah, hold on one second, Michael, we have a poll or the poll says how well did Harris and Walts do in the interview tonight on a scale of one to 10, 10 plus seven to 10 four to six, one to three. I want you to vote on that poll because I'm going to talk to these gentlemen about it. About almost 600 of you have voted and but I'm not ready to give the results yet. Michael, sorry. Go on. I mean, the only thing she could have done to top that in which she'll never do is like y'all talking about Republicans, Obama deported more people than anybody broke. So so please don't disrespect our record. But the point is, this just shows you, you can't get locked up into narrow ideological bindery boundaries that are binary, you know, either on this side or on that side. We know, as brother Hayes eloquently said, that there's a crisis at the border. The question is, how do you define it? How do you remedy it? What in the same way we talk about poverty in regard to opportunities for people to thrive? If we are in nations that are being hurt and harmed by imperial policies or by despotism of their states, then that's going to drive people to the land of the free and the home of the brave. Now you can't have it both ways. You can't say it. You know, eating masses and write that stuff on the, you know, on the lady that beckons us in the harbor to come to America and then say, oh, wait, wait, we weren't really talking about y'all. Yeah, not at the border. We were talking about the pair of airplanes and ships, not at the border. You know, I'm saying like, like in thick cruise over, but you know, don't be on that one right there. So, you know, people who are desperate to be here, right? All they need to do is watch the Godfather, part one, the greatest movie we ever made. The opening lines, I believe in America, America's made my fortune. So, so you got to understand that America still is a beacon of hope for millions. And let me tell you, you didn't ask me this, but if you allow me to, to, to, to thread this into the convention, how did they outdo the Republicans on that? I love America. I mean, the patriotism was coming through the veins, bro. I was getting there like this, like, come on, man. So I mean, again, strategically, it was brilliant. It's not that it's not substantive. It's not that they don't believe it, but people are so invested in symbols and representation that they had to take back what the right wing had inappropriately absorbed from them. We wear pens and we wear flags, but you're white nationalists who undermine the integrity of equal or zoom out of many one. So that was a brilliant move, you know, if we can appeal to, you know, West Coast gangster rap, you know, give it up smooth, never can tell when you're down for a jack move. Thank you, Ice Cube, and that's what happened right there. Well, let me just say that because I hate to use this opportunity, but I will. I'm going to plug my book because I talk about how people who are not necessarily on the right, whether you're in the middle or on the left, that you should start taking back patriotism, that we should take back the flag because it's not just for the MAGA crowd. I get tired. I've seen boat parades and truck parades every weekend where I live and they all have flags and it's and Trump flags and American flags. In this book, once was lost, my search for God in America, I talk about taking back the flag and taking back it comes out on the 10th and I expect both of you to pre-order in September, September 10th and I talk about it. I think my book comes out, man. I don't believe we in competition. No, we're not in competition. I'm not in competition. It ain't more competition because you're going to smoke it, but represent the unfinished story of, you know, I got a book coming about voting. I might say it's more relevant, but I'm just saying right now, give it what we deal with. I'm just saying check out that book by me and Mark Frabro because, you know, we'll put that up against the pretty face of Harrison Hayes because he's just the face to today. Okay. This is I thought her best answer the entire night when Dana asked her about Trump's attack on her race watch that you happened to turn black recently for political purposes questioning a core part of your identity. Yeah. And he's same old tired playbook. Next question, please. That's it. That's it. Okay. That's all it deserved. Oh, my God. Did it deserve more? I mean, it didn't. It didn't. It didn't deserve the thing I love about the way that she's approaching this. And they have successfully defanged Donald Trump's stick. It's old hat. It's tired. It's lazy. It's weird. They've taken the power from it in what I believe to be a really powerful way and properly categorized. It is something worthy of dismissal and it's nothing that a white man like Donald Trump wants, like, wants least than to be dismissed, to be not taken seriously. I think it sticks in a very specific place and I'm so glad to see a black woman do that. And see, here's the beautiful thing. It's up to us. See, we got her back. Let us fight that battle. This is Starsky and Hutch. I know brother Hayes is too young to understand that, but you know, this is book them, Daniel. You know what I'm saying? One is Jack Lord. The other one is my man. Well, that's not Starsky and Hutch. So you're talking about one out of 12. You know what I said? Oh, one out of 12. That too. We got stars. We're talking about 12 and we got, we got a Hawaii Bible, but that's all right. Go look it up. There you go. There you go. That's right. Hawaii Bible. Book them, Daniel. It's a Wi-Fi. You know what I'm saying? We got to get the morphology correct. But my point is that let me talk about his being proud of being unmolested by enlightenment. Let me talk about his malignant narcissism. Let me talk about his incurable imbecility. So let me deploy these words to beat him back because guess what? He is, it ain't, it's more than dog whistling. He's sending signals to an audience that must be addressed, but she ain't got to do it. She is so comfortable, confident in her blackness. She ain't got to fight the battles Obama did. See, Barack Obama is Jackie Robinson. The major qualification of Jackie beyond his brilliance as a ballplayer was his ability to bite the bullet and not say anything in the face of these people and go on. Willy May's plays would show up. I knew that's where you were going. He's to say, hey kid. And now we got Willy May's in high heels and she's smiling. And every time she smiles, that joy I got, the world didn't give it to me. They don't understand joy. They try to link it to her, Hubert Humphrey. No, that's linked to the black church that says you ain't going to steal my joy. You're not going to break my soul as translated by none other than Beyonce. So I think she's playing it brilliantly and to continue to do that is going to give her an effective pull pit for even those white people who go, man, if that was me, I would say it's on, but she's so cool and calm. That's a beautiful thing. He's winning, she's winning more fans doing that than, you know, what they say, you win more fans would honey than vinegar and she's doing the honey right now. That's not possible. There's unspeakable joy, unspeakable joy. I do want to say one more thing about the racialization, the racial dynamics here. And I'm here with preeminent scholars. So like I'm going to, I'm going to try to tread lightly here and give my piece, but recognize I know I'm open to some criticism here, but I do think that they've taken the right page out of the Obama playbook from 2009. It was, it was Coronel Belcher who said that, that, that a black man could not win the white house, but an incredible candidate who happens to be black could something to that effect. And we heard Michelle Obama just last week kind of echo some of that. She says she just happens to be black. And I think they've really leaned into this reality that if they make race, the center of this, this election, there's almost no chance that they could win. They make her womanness, her femaleness as Hillary Clinton did in 2016, the center of this election, there's a little chance, there's a chance that she would not win. But if they just make her an excellent candidate who happens to be a woman and happens to be black, then they have a greater chance. And I think the way she navigates this particular question actually gets to exactly that. Their willingness to talk about her policy, put forward her, her best image of herself without having to go down the routes of racial justice per se or gender justice per se. Those things are absolutely there. They're, they're, they're, they're apparent and on the surface, but she doesn't have to necessarily acknowledge those or, or center those in the conversation as she makes her case to the American people. And I think it might not meet the sensibilities of say a 2020 politic, right? But in 2024, post CRT and post anti-DEI and post Woke, I think she's playing it very smart from a, from a power perspective, from an electoralism perspective, I think it's a very smart play. And she'll say, what I was saying is just better that really maze who wasn't talking about all that stuff that Jackie was talking about, Jackie was talking about civil rights, he's giving speeches. Willie Mays are trying to hit the ball and try to catch the ball and go and have fun. But you know, it's different for the first because there are no rules. There's no playbook when you're the first, right? There's no playbook when you're the first. And so, you know, Jackie Robinson sort of created the playbook, right? So that others could, if they wanted to, deviate from it. So listen, she hit him when necessary. When she talked about how she had never met him, right? And Tim Miller, our friend over at the board, reminded me of that, pointed out that some important context on why Kamala Harris hasn't met Trump face to face. He didn't show up to the ceremonial transition of power after his violent coup attempt failed. And then she discusses it. And then, in the sound bite, she talks about how he is diminishing America, listen. Do we have the diminishing America sound bite? Okay. But we'll talk about it. He talks about, she talks about how he is diminishing, Trump is diminishing America. So one minute sound, but if you get it, let me know. But what he did not show up for, when everyone, I don't care how vitriolic the election is, right? How terrible it is Al Gore and Bill Clinton showed up with the transition of power with George Bush, Barack Obama and Michelle Obama showed up for the transition of power with Donald Trump, you did not respect Joe Biden, Kamala Harris, the American people, the office of the presidency, the Oval Office, the White House, he didn't respect any of it enough the people of America enough to show up for the transition of power. Who does that? But Donald Trump, and why is he even worthy of the office at this point? Why isn't he disqualified from becoming president with behavior such as that, Garrison? You know, I asked that question often. I think about, you know, not only that incident, but even the more recent incident of his staff pushing someone aside at Arlington National Cemetery. These are hallowed grounds for our country. These are the men and women who served our country and many of them gave their lives for our country, and to disrespect that space says so much about those people. And it's amazing that that isn't disqualifying. I remember him not showing up to the transition of power, that ceremonial kind of moment. I remember that. And I think the country kind of moved past it pretty quickly because many people hoped that his brand of politics would leave with him, that he would not be around to continue to poison the mines and the discourse in this country with the hatred. I think we can actually say that very clearly that some of the things that Donald Trump says are just wrong. And I think many people were just willing to kind of let him go off and ride off into the sunset as a result of it. But it's a great question that we have to ask, and I'm wondering if any number of the things that he has done since leaving office, including his commitment to pardoning the January 6 insurrectionist, I'm wondering if any of those things will be disqualifying for a majority of the American people. Michael, I think that they set the bar so low for her. And I think she did well, don't get me wrong, even if they had set the bar high, right? Because they're, oh, she's an articulate, she has to have, you know, her vice presidential candidate with her to hold her hand and on and on and on. And they set the bar low, and I think she just jumped right over it. Oh, yeah. Yeah. She's at the Olympics at the high jump going, wait a minute, we're the competition there. I got to go middle just by showing up. What? Well, let's move on to Tim Walson. Okay. If we can talk about Tim Walson. Oh, okay. You were, you were going to, I won't say. So the fact that Walson is there is an indictment of Trump implicitly. Why? Because your former president ain't even endorsing you, bro. He's not even wanting to be in the same room with you and is not giving you his imprimatur because you supported an insurrection that nearly caused him his life. So yes, they've set the bar low. But that just reveals the persistent mythology of competence that so many white men like Donald Trump have been legates of without justification. It is pompousity without predication. And here's the guy and Kamala Harris is calmly and beautifully just dismantling him, just taking him apart and showing the American people what he's made of. And your point, Don, about, you know, offending the protocol, heck, he didn't even congratulate them on, you know, upon losing because he persisted in insisting that he had won and then wouldn't show up at the ritual of the transition of the peaceful giving of power. That is remarkable and all of these Republicans out in here who always claim to love America so much. We hate Colin Kaepernick. We hate black people who stick their hands up in the sky and show the black power sign. And they love this nation. What did James Baldwin say? "I love America more than any nation on earth and therefore I reserve the right to perpetually criticize earth." So that's the kind of love that they will never know and yet the very people who have the greatest right to be offended with America's loss, Frederick Douglass, what to the Negro is the Fourth of July? We could save it and yet we have given our blood for this nation and Kamala Harris represents the nobility of the quiet sacrifice of black life for ideals that were often denied to us. I call them performative patriots who exhibit performative patriotism. Standing there with your hand over the flag and standing up is not, you know, that's what you do. That's... You're not the same, patriots. They don't know about patriotism. They're all about nationalism. If you believe in the Constitution in the country, then you show up for the peaceful transition of power. I want to talk about Tim Walts. He addressed the stolen valor issue, which I think is just BS, but more than anything, he talked about his son at the DNC and the criticism. And that's what I was waiting for because I fell in love with Gus Walts, even before I knew he had a non-verbal developmental learning disorder. I fell in love with him. And then when I found that out, I'm like, well, what is wrong with these people like Ann Coulter criticizing him? Here is Tim Walts talking about his son. A moment that you shared, that the world shared with your son Gus, you were speaking, the camera caught him so incredibly proud of you, so emotional saying, that's my dad. Yeah, I don't know as a father I could have ever imagined that. I'm grateful for so many reasons to be on this ticket, but that moment, to understand what was really important to have my son feel a sense of pride in me, that I was trying to do the right thing. And it was, you know, you try and protect your kids, you know, it brings no variety in things, but it was just such a visceral, emotional moment that I'm grateful I got to experience it, and I'm so proud of him. I'm proud of him. I'm proud of Hope. I'm proud of Gwen. She's a wonderful mother, and these are great kids. And I think the one thing he's talking about the era we're in is our politics can be better. It can be different. We can show some of these things, and we can have families involved in this. And I hope that there was, I hope people felt that out there, and I hope they hug their kids a little tighter, because you just never know, and life can be kind of hard. And last, he handled that very well, but also you didn't have to, you know, know that he has a learning, you know, disorder or that it upsets me so much when I think about that, to know not to criticize a kid. No, well, it's just, it's inhuman. The people who did have a moral character disorder and the inability to acknowledge the humanity of the other, a child. This is a young man, and his father is, you know, on a ticket to become vice president of the United States of America, and he stands up in pride. And for Ann Coulter, God bless her, and she knows she's wrong. You know, go back to JJ, because that's who her partner is, Dino Mike, and then reproduce the pathology of black stereotype enough to keep your brain moving. Don't be insulting young people like this man who is an exemplar of so many Americans whose children, you know, are, you know, struggling with learning disorders or other forms of mental health struggles and the like or emotional struggles to be that crass. But Donald Trump has set the framework for this in order, and that again shows the character of a party that despite his vitriol continues to support him. Garrison, I didn't even know, I watched that night, and I became emotional. I was like, oh my God, look at this young man. He's so proud of his dad. Because I couldn't imagine if my mom or dad were standing up there, I'm sure I would be overcome with emotion. I had no idea about his learning disorder and anything. I just thought it was just a young man who was proud for his dad. Who would criticize that and what for? I couldn't answer that question if I tried. I'm thinking a lot about my dad these days. He passed away in 2021 around this time of year. And I could only imagine if my father, Larry Hayes, was standing on stage to accept this incredible honor and this amazing historic accomplishment in his life, I would look just like Gus. That would be me. I would be clapping and screaming and pointing and crying and proud as all get out. And it takes a kind of inhumanity, as has already been said, to not see yourself or see what you would want for your child to experience in Gus and not to see his humanity. And I just don't understand it and I'm not going to try. One more thing on Tim Walz. He discussed the stolen dollar issue and I want to play that and then we'll talk about it. Walz, the country is just starting to get to know you. I want to ask you a question about how you've described your service in the National Guard. You said that you carried weapons in war but you have never deployed actually in a war zone. A campaign official said that you misspoke. Did you? Well, first of all, I'm incredibly proud to have done 24 years of war in uniform of this country. Equally proud of my service in a public school classroom, whether it's Congress or the governor. My record speaks for itself but I think people are coming to get to know me. I speak like they do. I speak candidly. I wear my emotions on my sleeves and I speak especially passionately about our children being shot in schools and around guns. So I think people know me, they know who I am, they know where my heart is and again, my record has been out there for over 40 years to be for itself. And the idea that you said that you were in war, did you misspeak as the campaign has said? Yeah, I said we were talking about in this case this was after a school shooting, the ideas of carrying these weapons of war and my wife, the English, you told my grammar is not always correct but again, if it's not this, it's an attack on my children for showing love for me or it's an attack on my dog, I'm not going to do that and the one thing I'll never do is I'll never demean another member's service in any way I never have and I never will. I just, what did you think of that answer? Was that it was that enough? Well it depends upon what we say by enough. Will it be enough for his political opponents? No, it won't be enough. They'll continue to attack him on this on this this front. I think he made a clear case to the American people, those watching that I don't say everything perfectly. I flub, I mess up, I misspeak and it will be up to the American people whether or not they believe that is the case there. I ultimately, my honest opinion here is that it doesn't matter, right? I mean, it's an attack on Tim Wal's, the vice presidential candidate but ultimately folks are going to be voting for vice president Kamala Harris who's running for president and that's going to be, that's the top of the ticket. But I do think it will continue to be a little nuisance and something that they're trying to work their way through and I think this answer was probably as good as it gets and I think it worked enough that we'll probably hear this as those questions continue to come up throughout the campaign. And speaking of her running for president who people will be voting for him, she told Dana Vash about what she was doing, you know, everyone knows where, do you remember where you were when, when this happened, when that happened, where she was and what she was doing when she got the call from president Biden that he was going to step down and he wanted her to step in, watch. He offered to endorse you right away or did you ask for it? It was, it was a Sunday. So, here I'll give you a little too much information before there's no such thing, Madam Vice President. My family was staying with us and including my baby nieces and we had just had pancakes and, you know, Auntie can I have more bacon, yes I'll make you more bacon and then we were going to sit, we were sitting down to, to do a puzzle. And the phone rang and it was Joe Biden and he told me what he had decided to do. And I asked him are you sure? And he said yes and then that's how I learned about it. What about the endorsement? Did you ask for it? He was very clear that he was going to support me. So when he called to tell you he said I'm pulling out of the race and I'm going to support you. I first thought was not about me to be honest with you. My first thought was about him, to be honest. I think history is going to show a number of things about Joe Biden's presidency. I think history is going to show that in so many ways it was transformative, be it on what we have accomplished around finally investing in America's infrastructure, investing in new economies, in new industries, what we have done to bring our allies back together and have confidence in who we are as America and grow that alliance. What we have done to stand true to our principles including one of the most important international rules and norms which is the importance of sovereignty and territorial integrity. And I think history is going to show not only has Joe Biden led an administration that has achieved those extraordinary successes, but the character of the man, is one that he has been in his life and career, including as a president, quite selfless and puts the American people first. Michael, I mean, I can't think of a better way for her to answer that. It was a humane and she also talked policy. She had a human aspect. She's sitting now with kids, she's making breakfast a puzzle and then she talks about territorial importance of the United States, I mean, yeah, she's, yeah, man, and you're looking at a guy. I'm Joe Biden to the wheels fall off as I'm Joe Biden until the end because he will be reckoned as one of the greatest presidents ever. And for black people, the greatest since LBJ without question for me and his capacity and his humanity because people who know president Biden love him. Let me tell you the story. I don't know if I've ever told, I was on a train once and they were, you know, he used to take the train from the Delaware, I'm on their seller and I happen to be in the access seat because I'm having to move foot and they kicked everybody off the train. I said, I can't get off the train because, you know, I know the vice president, oh, you know, there's like, like, sure, sure. But they turn to the conductor to conduct to say it, you know, the rules that you can't kick him off. Joe Biden gets on the train, professor, how are you? And so it's only me and him in first class, he says, come on over. So I get up and I go over, just like 2011, I said, sir, I'm writing a book on President Obama. He says, oh, that's great. I said, this is me, he could be real. I will tell you what he said after, I'm not going to give him to him. I mean, I don't mean he didn't do anything but support him. But he told me some funny stories about him in Barack Obama and his own blackness, that is Joe Biden's blackness and what that represented and the love that this man had for Obama, which was not reciprocated, by the way, to a full degree, Obama was trying to get him off the ticket in 2012, remember he was considering Hillary Clinton and the poll numbers didn't come in significant enough to boof them off. So my point is he has been more loyal to President Obama than President Obama has been to him. However, having said that, that man is one of the greatest human beings and one of the greatest presidents will ever have and Kamala Harris acknowledges that, stands with him. And look what she said, I wouldn't think about myself first, whoa, oh my God. How I'm Donald Trump like, what am I going to do, how am I going to get on, what can I then do, she thought about him and I can tell, I'm sure you can too, it was genuine. And so that was a perfect answer of a beautiful moment and thank God that she revealed to us that she had pancakes and bacon because when I see her again, I'm gonna say, can I ask him that bacon and I'll be up in the White House with you throwing down. I want to go, I want to go to the White House when she's in and I've gone to the vice-president residence with her and the second gentleman there, but I just tell you before we leave you, I'll just tell you two quick stories and not all, not the entire story. My sister died suddenly and tragically in 2018 and I was sitting on the couch just sort of, you know, just stewing and depression and whatever and I get a call and I don't usually answer calls and it had a 202 number and it said, yeah, it's a 202 number. And I said, I don't know why I answered it and I answered it and they said, is this Don Lemon? I said, yes, it is, who's this? And they said, can you hold for the vice-president, Joe Biden? And I was like, damn, damn, the nagas have gotten my number and they're playing an hour. And I said, sure. And they picked up, you know, just to see what it was and I was like, okay, well, this is Joe Biden. He goes down and he starts telling me stories and he, you know, about, you know, losing his son and loss and, you know, and getting over it and he kept me on the phone for 45 minutes. That's right. And then I remember doing, I did a number of town halls with Kamala Harris when I was at CNN before she was Senator Harris then. And you know, when you're doing a town hall is to get to know the candidate, but you've got to ask some, ask some tough questions and she was formidable on, on stage when I was with her. And we got off stage and you know, those things aren't easy. And sometimes people, they get off stage and they leave and they're mad, right? Oh, all right. I want to talk to your journalist. Got off the stage. She was like, we, we walked together, we talked, we took a picture, she gave me advice on being in an interracial relationship. And it was like, we had been friends forever. And every time I see her, she's done, she's done the same exact thing. I saw her at Essence and the Secret Service was walking and I was like, Oh, I guess, you know, somebody important is coming. And I hear somebody go, Don, and I turn around and it's her. I was like, Oh, hey, Madam Vice President. She is a real person. She's not stuck up. She doesn't hide behind the Secret Service. She doesn't think that she's too good to shake hands and talk to people. And her husband is the same way. So those are my stories. And I'll leave you guys with that. Unless you have stories, I'm going to let everybody get out of here. Anything you guys want to say before we go? I'm going to remember the night I was on Don Lemon's show with Garrison Hayes, man. Where were you, man? I was in D.C. Man. I was after the, you know, Kamala Harris interview and my God, these two great gentlemen, I had the opportunity to engage him. That's what I remember, bro. The honor is truly mine. So we'll leave it there. I'm going to have to come visit Nashville. You come through. You come through. Come through. Those people say pull up. Pull up. Thanks for watching everybody. I'm so glad that you, so many people tuned in. We had great engagement tonight. Thank you so much. Make sure you hit the thumbs up, like and subscribe. Of course, you know, it affects the algorithm and we appreciate it. And thank you for supporting independent media. And I'm glad you enjoyed the interview. I thought that the vice president and the governor handled themselves very well. And we'll see what the critics say. But you know, there's still some time to go before the election. Good night, everybody. Thank you. [BLANK_AUDIO]
