Young Israel of Westside Shiurim
Baba Basra 85
We're starting just from the bottom words and we're going to start a new discussion. We're going to relate it back to our mission and the whole discussion and our mission is we have different ways of making kinyonim. So just to go over the basics, we know there's a kinyonimashira when the buyer shows that he's in control because he makes it move, that definitely we came out that does not work in a street, if you make it move in the street that is not a kinyomashira. If you make it move into one's domain that is a kinyomashira and then there's a location called asympta. Asympta is a private alleyway off the street and there mashira is effective, make it move in asymptas, it works. Effectively asympta is like a shared courtyard, a shared courtyard for everybody because since it's private, it's not like in every moment flooded with people, you have a right such kind of use it at your own disposal to perform your kinyonim and show that it's yours. Basically whoever is using it in that moment, it's like it is theirs. Yesterday we added a discussion to the extent can a person even have like a kinyon hotzer and a sympta. In other words, if something, forget about me doing the mashira, show in control of it, let's say something is located physically in my hotzer, then I could have a kinyon hotzer on it. Could I have such a situation where a seller puts it down on the floor of the sympta, could that be konan? I was back and forth and that maybe yes, maybe not, maybe it's not like fully okay, it's really not, maybe it's more like I have a right to use the ground but it's not going to become like my exclusive domain and at any point I may not be able to have a kinyon hotzer. That was a complicated discussion yesterday but certainly I have a right to put down let's say my kly, my box in the sympta and if something was put in my box in the sympta then there would be a kinyon hotzer. Those are the some of the some of these things that we spoke about yesterday, now that the Kumar is going to start any new discussion, it's a rubbish mold, amateur value, Robin Schmull, who both say, top of the mountain. Okay, let me show all of them, my person's kly. We talk about a person here specifically, we're talking about the lookech. So the person's klyo, lookech has klyo, could acquire from him in any place, ho, it's maybe Rishor Sarabim with the exception of Rishor Sarabim. So basically what, what, what is a klyo? A klyo is mini hotzer, that's what it is. As long as you have a right to have, to have that kly, for it to be there, then it's going to work. So Rishor Sarabim, it's not going to work, why? Because you have no right to keep your kly there, it's an obstacle for people who are walking through. So therefore, since you don't have a right to for it to be there, or let's say it's in a courtyard, it belongs to a third party, the same thing, you don't have a right to keep it there, you don't have permission there. So then it cannot like, establish that this is your private domain. So, so when we're talking what we don't mean for a second, obviously when you're walking in the street, you have a right for a second to put it down, but you don't have the right to keep it there. That's the point. So it can't establish it as your domain. So in any place, it could acquire except for Rishor Sarabim. And the point is, because Rishor Sarabim, you don't have the right to keep it there. If you don't have the right to keep it there, so then it cannot establish a privacy of domain. Rishor Sarabim, if you look at Rishor Sarabim, no klyo could establish that this is your domain and something that serves like it's in your hotzer, even if it's in the street. However, the Kumar tells us there's not really much legacy. So if you don't have the right to keep it there, then it can't be established as your hotzer. So remember, a Simta is kind of a public place, it's a public place in the sense that anyone can come there. But since it's not a public full of traffic, it's a little alleyway off to the side. You actually have your rights, have rights to keep your utensils in the Simta. So therefore, even though it's technically Rishor Sarabim, there's no reason why it cannot be cornered when you're there. So they were just calling it Rishor Sarabim, as the Kumar tells us. For my car, Rishor Sarabim, they were really referring to only a Simta. Why did they give it the language of Rishor Sarabim, Rishor Sarabim, Rishor Sarabim. It's not Rishor Sarabim, meaning it's open to anyone to do that. But Lamisa, any person can go and establish their right to keep their klyo there, and therefore the klyo that you put there establishes it as a private domain, and as it did of klyo in that place. So as the Kumar Khan, I'm just glad that Rishor Sarabim is a logical, but the klyo is not arguing. The person's klyo can acquire for him, but the klyo can't be required for him. But when he has the right to set it down, what is a place like that? A Simta, a courtyard that he's a part owner, or if it would be a courtyard with an owner gave him permission to keep his things there wherever he has the right to keep his klyo. The answer is, klyo is established as a private place in the klyo. So wait a second, why only where he has registration versus in English is low? He didn't review it, he couldn't himself say that it could be klyo in Rishor Sarabim. He didn't mean literally a Rishor Sarabim, he meant a Simta. He was calling Rishor Sarabim because it's not Rishor Sarabim, but actually in a pure Rishor Sarabim, we don't have the right to keep it there. There is no question that then the klyo cannot acquire. Okay, so that's where we are right now. Where are we at a klyo, which is establishing a person's private concert, cannot acquire in a location where you don't have rights to keep it there? In a permanent sense, like in the street, and therefore it's not going to work. So now I think I'm always going to try to disprove this from a brice. Now the issue here just is, just hold and be patient because it's going to take time for us to finish a briceo. Eventually we'll see what the parts of the briceo that we want. So tell us your mind, let's look at a briceo. There are brameedos, but mai krin are four different nidos, four different sakim that we're going to give here. For mai krin, in other words, when something is being transacted, produce is being sold. At what point is the self finalized? And the issue is always, at what point can we no longer back out? So what's happening is that they're using a klyo to measure out the goods, and then eventually it might be a mashikha on the klyo. So what happens is, actually, when we follow mita le mocha, as long as the measure is not full, it's still in the process of being measured, so a little bit went into the measuring cup, but it's not full, so then it's still everything is viewed as being the sellers. The buyer has not been conated just because it's gone into the klyo. Mission is followed mita le mocha, as soon as the measure is full, it's considered already like it's the buyers, and the buyer was conated. So what in the world is the chat? Who's klyo are you using, right? You're measuring out in some comp. We're saying in the beginning of the measuring process, until it's full, then it's considered like it's the seller still. But once the measuring cup is full, now it's transacted to the buyer. So what's the shot? Oh, well, how does that happen? I remember me, there's no name. The cases like this. They were borrowing, the measuring cup didn't belong to the seller. The measuring cup didn't belong to the buyer. The measuring cup belonged to a third party. It was being borrowed. He's lending it to both of them for their use in the transaction. So if there's going to be a shift, initially it's being lent to the seller. At a certain point, it's going to become loan to the buyer. So that's what the price is saying. Once it's full, then it's transferred over to the buyer. But once it is, until it is full, while it's still being measured out, then it's still considered loan to the seller. So that's the aside. While it's being filled, little by little, it's still in the seller's control. And it's under history. Therefore, the seller's not finalized. Once it becomes full, at that point, the clean now is being used, being loaned to the buyer. I'm sorry, to the buyer. Therefore, it's going to become like his clea and the Kenyan will be there. That's specific, again, because the clea is being used. It's really belong. It's being used by the buyer and seller, but it owns by a third party. We're trying to figure out, at what point, in the transaction, it's going to be finalized because it's going to switch to become under the usage of the buyer. Ah, well, might as well as the measure belongs to either one of them. Then, the owner of the measure is going to age a little bit as it goes in. In other words, if the measure belongs to the seller, he retains ownership even after it's full. It doesn't make a difference. Until the buyer is going to do Akbar or Mashikha upon the thing, then he's going to be coming in. And if the measure belongs to the buyer, then as soon as a little bit goes in, he acquires it whatever goes in. Why? Because it's his clea. So it's like it's in his rishos. Okay. Very good. Now, where is this happening? I met Varma Murim. Where is this happening? Where is this occurring rishos around him? Either it's in the street. What happens in your name? Or it's in a courtyard property that doesn't belong to either of them. And stop right there. Just for a whole lot for a second. That fact is a problem for us. Because we're saying that if it was the buyer's clea, then each little bit that goes in, he would be kona. Where is this true? We're saying even if it's in the street, we said before that your clea cannot function as a Kenya concert for you. In a location, you don't have the right to keep it in the street. Your clea is not kona for you. So this is the line in the brice that's going to be the problem for us. But before we deal with that head out, we're going to finish the whole brice. So all of this, which is Varma Jaziano's name. Apo britches mochair. If it's the seller's domain, lokanashayvio, then the buyer does not acquire it until he actually does that bar. Until he picks it up. In other words, what basically we're saying is that if your clea is located in the seller's rishos, then certainly being in your clea is not a Kenyan for you. Because overall, the location is the seller's domain. Then you're going to have to do a my sock bar. Pick it up. And there it's considered under your control, under your exclusive pickup at that time. Or you take it out of a seller's domain. The truth is that we're going to explore this in a big coming up with Ahmed Bayes. If a person's clea inside of the seller's domain can be kona as a Kenyan hotter. Seemingly here, it's open in the brice saw that it cannot. If it's your private clea, but it's in the seller's domain, it cannot establish that it's like your hotter. Unless you're going to do a hot bar, you take it out. Very interesting. Seemingly before in the brice that we had, that your clea bursos or album could be kona for you. versus money fair cannot until you pick it up and understanding of that is when it's neutral zone it's vicious around into your clea Whoever is in the clea establishes is for you But when it's in the money fair situation is not taken out of usually to that we could see it coming through your clutter Since it's in the overall vicious of the requests of ambitious money cuts or just my cut the clea won't be cona And I have to do alcohol. That's what the price is saying now But again, it's seemingly before it said that versus around me was and that's the that's the big problem for us versus like half let's say the sale is happening in the buyer's domain. So then given to love my share as soon as the seller agrees to sell Carla capital the buyer acquires it why even before it's measured out because there's a Kenyan concert right there You don't even need the measuring clea. It's really it's really it's really all right there Um, it's going it's going to work now. This would seem That even if it would be in the seller's clea, right? It says as soon as he agrees it would work Well, who's measuring composite in it would seem even if it's going to be in the seller's clea Does that mean that the power of the overall hotter is that you could be cona the buyer could I use his Kenyan hotter activated? Can concert be cona the pro the produce even if it's also located at the same moment simultaneously is that it's also located in the Sellers clea so the tomorrow we'll talk about that as well But again seemingly that's what it is saying that as soon as it's in the buyer's hotter That once the seller agrees to the sale that it's finalized right away automatically because it's in the overall hotter For sure, so a lot of my father and that's well. Let's say the sale is from saccid and their domain of the of where it has been deposited Meaning it's being where the produce is being sold. It's not in the seller's property But rather it's in the it's in the shomer's property and he was holding it for the seller So there basically we assume that this shomer Is going to give um use of his rishos to conduct the sale Uh, and but it's still kind of in that way Therefore similar to the rishos of the seller because he's guarding it for the seller He's protecting him for the process and then low-con of the buyer. That's not acquired Ache kable all of unless the shomer now accepts upon himself to loan the place to the buyer. In other words, he's macabre Okay, now I'll let you be uh, I'll let you be in control of my of my courtyard that you could use it for yourself Watch here's my car more. Maybe he rents the location So why when it's by shomer, you could do that now technically you should be able to do that when it's by the sellers versus also You should be able to say hey, can I rent the location where it is and I'll acquire it that way But it's less likely to do that It's more likely that that will happen when it's by his third party than his wife by the seller Okay, so that was the whole long brice. So now the mar says let's go back to the part that was important Asketani mia what part of the brice is relevant? We should surround the concert change name. We're talking about the clue of the seller the measure of the buyer If the measuring cup would be the buyers the little bit that goes in little by little is cone at what's the shot? It's king and concert and it says where is this true in either the street or Or a random property that doesn't belong to either of them. So what do I see top of them? It is my lord versus a rabbit mamish Or since it was just a rabbit means a literal was just a rabbit So we see that it refused to ravage most said ravage most said before you have no rights to keep your clue there It can not establish it You cannot establish it as a as your own domain says tomorrow low symptom when the brice is ever just around I might be referring to a symptom says the Marfum the concert change name It's said versus a robin or a property. That's of neither of them So that indicates that we're talking about a real Rishosa robin work the truth is that really we should ask that that line itself is akasha How could the clebe kona and rishoshi in the first name of it's a third party's place You don't have rights to keep it in the third party's place. How could the clebe kona? That's the mother doesn't ask it that way, but they that's all nickel on the tomorrow's question Says the tomorrow. No my concert name not me. What does it mean? The hunter is neither of theirs It doesn't mean it's a third party. It doesn't mean the local that that it's not that they don't have connection to it What it truly means is rather to low high kula below the high kula that it's not solely to either one Ella the travi or rather to courtier to both of them meaning that's a pretty confusing way of saying that they own a query together But as the hunter of neither that means neither of them exclusively rather they share it So that's actually more like the simtha now Let's give a little bit more with a lumnus so we cannot appreciate a little bit what the gomara's handling what the gomara is coming out We have defended the opinion that's for kula to be kona It has to be in a place where you have the right to keep it But it's the gomara the match and hell. No a kula can be kona even in the street What's really the shadow the shadow is the nature the nature of a klee being like a hotter We're saying there's a thing called konya hotter and your person's klee could be a konya hotter But in what sense can a clea be like a hotter is it the shot? That it's naturally since I own the clea naturally the clea is my hotter wherever it is Even if I can't keep it there i'm not establishing it in any way to be here versus anywhere else Just naturally wherever the clea is whatever is held inside the clea is like by me So let it do that in the street as well. That's one perspective But the other perspective which is the Mars defendings that know the clea in an established if you can Establish itself to be in a certain zone. This is its face This is where it is be where it is. This is where it sets. This is where it rests and in this location This is the resource. This is the courtyard of the buyer. So then it can be clean and cloth So I can't do that in the street. I can do that in a Simta. I can do that in a joint joint courtyard And I cannot do that in a Industry now says the tomorrow new question, but I mean a reputation is more of a killer show Okay, of course, just might there kind of like a hello What if the produce is put into the clea of the buyer while it's still resting in the domain of the seller? So in other words, what's happening here? They they've got the price everything's being measured and emptying into the buyer's clea The problem is that it's in the over over shows of the seller. So do is it Kona or not? Now, what's the question here? What's the question? So the rash bomb The rash bomb seems to say that what's the suffix that could I look at the airspace of the clea as being an independent domain? Or is it automatically bottled to the overall domain where it rests? In other words, it could if it is the clea could establish a zone domain that could acquire even when it's in the seller's domain But if I say that it's bottled to the over over shows it cannot acquire Because because because lamisa we view the contents as being under shows my hair How does it sounds like very strong, right? If I'm in a cop, which is in a room Where is it? Where is it? Can it be exclusive in the cop or is it just in the in the overall overall overall room? Now that's this is this is hard to obviously what's the obvious question here? What should we think about? Why is that different than what we spoke about really just before right? In other words, why was it not quantum versus a robin because we're saying you have to have the right to be able to keep this here If you don't have the right to be able to keep this here, it doesn't work Why it's because because because because just being naturally in the clea doesn't work So if we came out that way cannot be Kona in the street So why would bershars might there be better or they're afraid frame it differently And the third party's bershars we said also wouldn't work So why being bershars might there wouldn't be better? That's a hard child We could leave that maybe for a second about quantum that's the good marks entertaining Is kilo show kept which was my partner or not And that the way the response was going to be shown the question is Is a clea can it establish itself that the contents are in the clea or no Is a clea just bottled to the over over shows so it's about to overall shows And therefore the contents are viewed still being in the bershars might So I'm a labor of goodness and time to it. We see this in the mission What does the mission say is our club self-recon? So here we're talking about a husband throwing a get to his wife Now the den is it's her assessment also the other he puts it in her hand However, the remark getting launched off that if he puts it in her choreography's also Kona So what happens if he throws it into her lap? Oh, the silk house or sewing basket reason we graduate sees divorce So what's up shot? How is the sewing basket going to make her divorce? Because even though it's overall in the husband's property But it's its own independent clutter It's it's basically like a clea of the woman in the overall ratios of the husband And we're saying it establishes its independent identity And the get which falls into the sewing basket is viewed as being in her ratios Not in his So therefore we see the Caleb of the buyer could be Kona even though it's resting in someone else's property So I'm like knock on my time about something. Hi, what in the world are you doing resolving this from here? To muckling me oh, hello, hello, they've already dealt 100 blows with the oh what to this. Oh, hello's a wait Otherwise, we've already did analyze this and dissected this and according to the analysis It's not approved on her if you don't much mobile. She's like I'll tell you about we're talking about that the sewing basket is hanging off of her body It's not randomly in the husband's ratios And it could therefore be really that normally when there's a clea that that's in that's in another ratio It is bottled to the ratios, but here we're talking that since it's hanging from her It's not in the domain of the husband. Basically, it's an accessory of the person and certainly the person herself Um as her own identity even though she's in the the the domain of her husband and it's an accessory of her It's hanging off of her right. She'll have to show her. She'll have to show up efficiently But as long as it ties her, you know, that's not actually hanging that sufficient because again to be bottled to her is an accessory to her It's not an independent clea. I've had a problem. I usually coughed him when I was in her class or it could be he was resting on the ground But it was between her thighs and she was squatting on the ground was resting between her legs So basically we're saying the husband gives his wife the rights to the area where she sits. So it's it's not really Viewed in this perspective as being in the overall Domain of the husband because since it's it's she's squatting and it's in right in that area where she's sitting Then it then it certainly could be considered like it's by her Shosh read about me. I'm gonna show the Bible mocha clauses We're talking about a case with the husband actually sewed basket was a sewing basket merchant That's what he did So he kept a lot of sewing baskets and the sewing basket was in an area where he designated to keep sewing baskets that he had for sale So since he's not mocked with a matter of keeping it there It doesn't have any use or anything So this is if she has rights to keep it there So if it's rights to keep it there then certainly it's not going to be bottled to overthrow It's going to work our question is only when you don't really have rights there It just happens to be in in there. It's just my effect The other thing I'm going to say is a different approach Welcome Reika Akanela when a wife is in her husband's property the place occupied by her lap belongs to a mocha mocha Mocha mocha place occupied by her sewing basket belongs to her in what sense why and it's not it's not her domain Oh, my time to be able to impeach ain't on the market a person is not particular long I'm gonna click on a mocha mocha now where the lap is and not where the sewing basket is Basically what we're answering is that the presumption is that her husband will give his wife the right to keep a sewing basket anywhere in his property So therefore her sewing basket Even if it's not tighter, it's not between her legs that it's always in the sewing basket It's always considered her domain. So basically we're saying that it's a specific here between the Understandings in husband and wife that he's not mocha but he put his sewing basket So no proof is there for our question our question is could a buyer to attend so acquire the property of a seller? Our child is a person doesn't really have any given rights for it to be there So therefore we have a soft fake that maybe whatever is in the clean is automatically Brought to over to the top of our show so we're still looking for a proof So we turn to the price so that we quoted it on the amount I love I love show Let me all look at the price of a four versus my fair if the set was on in the seller's domain Low-con of the buyer doesn't out acquired she couldn't have a picture so he's got to make a king You know how to ball pick it up or he removes it from the domain I love it because it's a little kayak This means even if it's his own even if it isn't in his own utensils meaning He's measured being measured out into the buyers utensils still the price is saying there You're not going to until you lift it or you remove from the domain So you see you're not going to a Kenyan of the clea says the tomorrow love We killed the mocha the price could be talking about where the measure was in was measured on the seller's utensils That's why you have to do a Kenyan bar remove it But in the economy if we'd be put into the buyers clea you'd be corner right away like the tomorrow case So what are you saying with a ratio be kill of the mocha? You're saying that in the price was beginning the case It's like what was done with the seller's utensil had it been done with the buyers utensil It wouldn't go in right away. Okay, so we're talking about with sellers utensils But then look at the safe a safe and I'm a kill of the mocha So that the end of the price also presumably should be talking about the same case of a seller's utensil But he must say for what was the safe? There's just look at the cell was done in the buyer's domain Keep in cheeky will of mocha as soon as the seller accepts the terms of the cell kind of look at the buyer acquires now Who's who's clears it in it's in the clea of the mocha, but we're saying automatically since it's in the domain of the look Hey, I look at what's gonna be look up to work on my kind of look at how could that be? Why is he going to right away? In other words, if it's true that we're saying over here that it's in the K-love shell My hair and even if it's in the overall domain of the of the low cash, it doesn't make sense that you should be Kona What's the shot? Why is the tomorrow? Why is the tomorrow assuming this tomorrow's doing this way because it doesn't make sense That that it can take away from what's in the clea and automatically say that okay? Who cares about what's clea? It's in we should just say it's bottle to the wrist shows that the tomorrow does not think is a viable explanation So therefore we have to be talked about like going in circles We have to be talking about they're talking about the buyers clean, but then what's with the ratios? I said safe us on the cover. Okay. Yeah, we're gonna do that to you the safe all where it's in the buyers domain It was also in his clea. That's why it was Kona the cell by the rest of the ratio where you weren't gone I was only because was in the seller clea. So tomorrow my posca How could you make such a rule meaning like there's there is there a rule when you're in the sellers or shows? You're using the sellers clean when you're in the buyers We're just using the buyers clea. It's like what in other words What's bothering us is that? Force who came to that we just gave that the case where it was in the sellers were shows was in the seller's clea But if it be in the buyers clea be Kona I should think in the safe out where we said where it's in the buyers domain He's Kona is only when it's in his clea, but not within the south But why we assuming that when it's in the buyers were shows us in the buyers leave when it's in the sellers Which was just in the sellers clea, so I'll take mark cuz it usually is that way So I'm at the middle saw they mocha money democracy If you're in the domain of the of the seller whose Caleb are gonna use you're in his thing You take off a glass from his shelf. It's gonna be the sellers Be low kayak if you're in the domain of the buyer amount of low cash Basically the buyers Caleb are around therefore it is it actually reasonable to that the price assume that that we would figure that out That that was our case so the ratio is talking about that was in the sellers and the sellers Caleb and that's why the buyer Really what we're saying is that the buyers Caleb really the buyers Caleb could be Kona But it happens to be that it was not in his Caleb And in the safe all in the safe up for the buyers for the buyers were shows to be Kona and had to be that was in his Gimme would be in the sellers clue that is not now just to clarify pattern will close with this postus This assumption that the tomorrow's making that a buyer's ratios cannot be cone if it's in the seller's clea is only when the Gamara's defending Caleb shell low kayak Kona versus my that would view what in is in a clea It's it is not bottle to the over our shirts. It's in the clea Therefore the inverse where it's in the sellers clea in the buyers domain the buyer cannot be Kona But I had to go the other way if we would assume Caleb shell a shell Kayak is not Kona versus Michael because wow it's bottle to the ratios. It's not in the clea So then in the inverse where they would be in the buyers domain button the sellers clea Pastures and economy the buyer could be Kona this that the more we're defending is all because it's defending the side Caleb shell kayak our Kona for sure smoke there.