- Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. With the price of just about everything going up during inflation, we thought we'd bring our prices down. So to help us, we brought in a reverse auctioneer, which is apparently a thing. - Mint Mobile unlimited, premium wireless. - Have it to get 30, 30, 30, about to get 20, 20, 20, about to get 20, 20, about to get 15, 15, 15, 15, just 15 bucks a month, so. - Give it a try at mintmobile.com/switch. - $45 up from payment equivalent to $15 per month. New customers on first three month plan only. Taxes and fees extra. Speed slower above 40 gigabytes of detail. - Hey, big blue banter listener. Would you like an extra $500? That's a lot of cash. Go to bluewirepods.com/survey and complete the blue wire audience survey about you and your podcast listening habits for a chance to win a $500 gift card. The survey will help create a better advertising experience for audiences and, in turn, help this show. That's bluewirepods.com/survey, where all you have to do is answer some simple questions for a chance to win $500. Make sure to read the full terms and disclaimer, plus complete the survey for a chance to win. Bluewirepods.com/survey. The link is also in the show notes of this episode. - Welcome back. It's the big blue banter New York Giants football podcast. I'm Dan Schneider, joins always my co-snicked a lotto. Today, we're here to preview the Giants week three game against the Browns. The Giants entering a must-win territory. And I do want to make amends and apologize. Earlier this week, I said, so the statistic wrong Nick, I said there was a 1.7% chance or 1.7% of teams that start owing to make the playoffs. Actually, the number is closer to 12%. So the Giants have about a one in six chance per historical odds of making the playoffs. So that's 12%. So I think if it goes to 0 and three, I don't know the numbers behind that. But I would imagine at 0 and three, we're looking at like one, two, three percent. It's just a guess at that point. I don't think I remember too many 0 and three teams making the playoffs. So essentially a must-win game for the Giants this week against the Browns, Nick. So how are you feeling going into a must-win game? - I don't feel great, Bob, you know? To be honest with you. So I do think the Giants could win this game because the Browns have holes. Like the Browns are not a great football team. They barely escaped Jacksonville with a victory in that sloshy game. And they did nothing offensively basically in the second half of that game. And Jacksonville did nothing. Basically the entire game, a little bit in the second half on offense. And as Trevor Lawrence said after the game, "We suck right now." That was Trevor Lawrence's quote. And they did. They're terrible on film. 48% of their offensive plays were either stopped at the line of scrimmage or negative yards. Like the Browns defense, they were all over Jacksonville. And it doesn't seem like Jacksonville has quite the identity. So Cleveland was able to take advantage of that. Dallas rolled Cleveland in week one. The Browns, they have a stout defense, a young, fast physical defense. You're gonna see a lot of middle of the field closed and you have Miles Garrett. There's gotta be a lot of attention paid to Miles Garrett. They have good complimentary pieces on the defensive line around Miles Garrett. Denzel Ward is doing with an injury. He might be on a pitch count even if he plays. That could be big for the Giants. But I'm scared for the Giants offense. And it's really gonna come down to can the Giants defense shore up at this point? And I'm not sure if they can. Like Tashol Watson is very beatable. He's erratic, he's a long windup. He's been an absolute mess in Cleveland since he arrived there. I don't know if it's the worst trade in history and how that we look down at the Carolina Panthers and the Russell Wilson deal. But it's definitely not looking great for the Deshawn Watson trade and how it's gonna be reviewed historically. It just depends on if they're gonna show up. And against this Giants defense, which has a lot of issues from a talent standpoint, from a scheme standpoint that we brought up last week as well. I think it's, and then from a communications standpoint, it's gonna come down to can Dexter Lawrence, Brian Burns and K-Vontibital win this game for the Giants. And we think of the Browns offensive line, Dan. And we say, "Oh, the Browns offensive line." "They're one of the best offensive lines at least." They're not really playing like it. - Right. - They didn't play like it against Dallas. And they really didn't play like it against Jacksonville. - I think injured on the offensive line. - They're beat up on the offensive line. They're injured. I'm not really sure what's going on with Judrick Wills. But they're holding a lot. Like I think Ethan Poachik, and Ethan Poachik's a good player, but I always felt like the matchup between Dexter Lawrence and Ethan Poachik is one that Lawrence just dominates. They need to put guard help on him. And Joel Batonio is a good football player, but I look at this matchup and I say, if the Giants can win this game, it's gonna be in the trenches defensively. It's just, can DeShawn Watson take advantage of what the Giants can't do defending the past? And we can get into that throughout this podcast. - Yeah, I wanna start on the other side of the ball. Some of you mentioned earlier, start with personnel and then work our way to the scheme. - Biggest problem for the Giants in this game without a doubt, when you look at this Brown team as Miles Garrett, their best player on the team by far at this point. So we've seen a lot this season of the Giants essentially using extra players like Theo Johnson and Chris Manhertz. Not as much, but Daniel Ballinger to help the offensive lineman, to help the tackles. With that said, do you think we're gonna see a similar game plan against the Browns? Or is it gonna be, you know, we might finally see some more 11 personnel from this team? - Yeah, I think they're gonna probably come out with 12. They'll be in 11 more than 50%, but that's low. - For, yeah, and it will stand. - Yeah, for national football league standards. And I think the running back when they are an 11 personnel, he's gonna flare out if he's not six man protection, if they aren't only sending four, he's gonna flare out and he's going to put his shoulder into Miles Garrett. He's gonna force Miles Garrett inside, allowing the tackle to not set so deep because he knows he has help from the running back. And that's a way that you can mitigate the risk against a player like Miles Garrett. And clearly, look, they're not an uber aggressive team, we're 25.4% blitz rate right now and a 25.4% pressure rate, which is eighth most in the NFL. So they're getting more pressure than they do blitz and that's because they have Miles Garrett. They have his Adarius Smith. And these coaching staffs, they know each other. Ken Dorsey, the offensive coordinator for Kevin Stafansky and the Browns, worked under Brian Dable. - Right. - Schwartz, Jim Schwartz, we all know Jim Schwartz. He was a senior defensive consultant under Shane Boeing, technically, but I mean, it's kind of a bum. I think he was more so. Shane Bowen was a protege of him. And you could see there are similarities. When it's there in long, you see those wide fronts allowing Garrett to just paint his ears back and go. From the two games I watched this season, I saw a lot more middle of the field clothes than we've seen from the Giants, meaning there's gonna be a lot of cover three. There's more man coverage, so a lot of cover one. That defense is talented, has a lot of experienced players who have worked together. So I don't think there's as many communication issues. I did see a communication issue in week one against Dallas that led to a Brandon Cook's touchdown. And it was a concept that we've seen Brian Dable run quite frequently. It's called the double China concept. It was from an empty set. You can also run it from a three by one where the number one and the number two receiver, the two outer receivers to the field side. They run about five yard in-routs. And then the number three receiver runs a deep corner route over the top of that. And it defeats man coverage. It's meant to isolate the safety typically and gain that number three receiver outside leverage. And you can use Wanda Robinson in that role. You could put Hyatt there, you could put neighbors there depending on how the defense is playing against neighbors. But we know Brian Dable has had that in his arsenal. He used it a lot in 2022. I wrote a piece about it on "Babe Blue View" going into the 2023 season. So in the red zone, we might see some of that. If the Giants are comfortable enough to step back and throw the football in certain situations. But again, a lot of that could be dictated on how they block up Miles Garrett. This defense too, Dan, is beat up. They have like five starters on the IR right now. And well, yeah. Juan Thornhill, players like that. Maurice Hurst, Deviati, one of their linebackers. They're all on the IR right now. So this defense is beat up, but it's still uber talented. So it's something that, again, man, look, it's hard to sit here and pick the Giants. And I'm not going to sit here and pick the Giants. I have to bury the lead. But this is a game they could win, which is silly for me to, it sounds silly for me to say. But the Browns, they're often, the offensive line is not as talented as we typically think. And their defense has a tone of injury. So if the ball bounces the right way the Giants could win this football game, I just don't have confidence in this coaching staff, which is the first time I'm kind of saying it like this, going into a matchup, which is concerning. Yeah, I mean, that's, it's interesting when we talk about the confidence side of it. I, you don't have confidence in this coaching staff against this team, which I can't, which I can't say, I disagree with, I don't have confidence in Daniel Jones against this style of defense. That's gonna be, we've had some progress on that front. Obviously it looked better against Washington. But look, as talented as they were last year on defense, Cleveland, and they were at a point last year where they were just shutting down everyone because the scheme was working with the talent. They've been injured. They're not playing the same style of ball, but they're gonna bring the same style, I think, of mentality against Daniel Jones. When Daniel Jones faces these types of DCs due to her, just like, F it, I don't have to give a shit about, to be quite frank about anywhere on the field, I'm just gonna play up on you the whole game and see what you can do to beat me that way. It just hasn't worked out well so far for Daniel Jones in his career. It did a little bit against Detroit like years ago. I think I was like 20, 20, or 20, 19, he had a good game that was 2019, yeah. It seemed like it used to be better for Jones. Nowadays though, it seems like he just, it's a little bit, it rushes his process a little too much. So that's what I'm most concerned with him having a rush process. 'Cause if you look at the difference between Jones and week one and week two, I think the biggest difference is his process, like he was less rushed, he was more comfortable. If you get him uncomfortable, that's when you start to see sometimes he's unravels in-game. - He does unravel in-game. I'm hoping we see more man coverage. 'Cause I think neighbors can be any of the cornerbacks that they had. Now Denzel Ward is a top corner back in the league. So I'm not saying neighbors would dominate that, but if he is a little bit limited, you're gonna see more, Greg Newsom, who I think is a very good corner back, mind you, a very good man coverage corner back. I remember they took him in the first round out of Northwestern like four years ago, I think. And I was like, "Damn, that kid could end up being a thing. "And he is a thing." And then Martin Emerson Jr., who they selected as well two years ago. We had four picks last season. He's another player, or now three years ago it might've been, but he had four picks last season kind of came into his own. But I still think neighbors can win those match ups. And if Daniel Jones can see more man coverage, more cover one, that's gonna lead to more targets down the football field, more shots. And also more condensed sets, bunch stacks to get free releases, which we saw against Washington. So I'm hoping they come out and cover one, a little bit more. And if you look at the advanced statistics of this defense, this Cleveland defense, I think they allow the second most air yards on target. Now, not a lot of them are being completed. There was one last week with Brian Thomas Jr., which was just a sick throw and catch. - Great rep by Thomas. - Great rep by Thomas. - Well, he subtly pushes off like that one. You know, we always talk, Nick, about like, oh, the receivers always get the edge. It's unfair how it's called, which we agree with. That one, I'm like, kudos to the wide receiver. I hope that never gets called. Like he subtly got that push off at the end, like in a perfectly strong way. - Long time listeners of this podcast, no, I am very sympathetic towards defensive players. I'm very sympathetic towards the defense. But I agree, if you're subtle enough in your push off, there's an art to that. There was a craft to that. If you're like Mike Evans, who, by the way, like I think Mike Evans, like first ballot hall of famer. So I have such reverence and respect for Mike Evans. But there are times where I see Mike Evans, like stiff on the corner back. The quarterback's like, it's like five, 10. He's like, bro, are you kidding me, man? This guy's like six, five. Like what am I doing? But like those should be called, but like when it's just subtle enough, especially when it's like at the top of the break and it's just like a little subtle, give it to the receiver at that point. But yeah, that was against the cover three too. So the middle of the field, there was two clear outs from the right side of the field, one deep horizontal cross. I think it was from Christian Kirk, cleared out the safety who bit down on it. And anytime you get that against an outside leverage quarterback, take that shot. And what did we see over the last two, all 22 reviews on offense for the Giants? It was Malik Neighbors has the number one outside the numbers on a deep post. Neither of them were thrown, but each time, and it wasn't against middle of the field closed. It was against quarters. It was against a cover four type of defensive structure. But the Giants ran these routes in the middle of the field. Sometimes out of 12 personnel with all the Titans, directly at those safeties to get them to pin themselves down with neighbors over the top. So I wouldn't be shocked if the Giants hit over the top on a deep post with Malik Neighbors when he is outside of the numbers as a number one, because it's something that I think the Giants had been attempting to dial up, it just hasn't manifested yet. - Yeah, I mean, that's, so that's like the thing with this game. It's like, there's gonna be opportunities because of what you just said. The Browns are gonna play them more aggressive. We may, we're likely to see more man looks, man coverage looks, which is great for Daniel Jones historically. Like, he's been a better quarterback. But then that's when the, you know, you can't put the cart in front of the horse or whatever. Here comes one that I probably got wrong again. - No, no, you don't. - That one might be right, yeah. Which is to get there, you have to have protection. Like, that's when it's like, if they're dialing up these looks, the Giants, they see it Jones is able to process it for him fast, whatever that version is, the production still has to be there because we know, let's be, let's be Frank Nick. We know he's not the type of quarterback who's like just really honed in on like understanding, getting that ball out, just like, quite Frank getting the ball out fast in those spots. Like, he needs to be able to have his time to set up, get into his long drop, hit his back foot, hitch into it and make that throw. So that, that's a lot of time. It requires a lot of time for him to take those shots. I've seen it throughout his career. So then it's like, do we have to protection here against Miles Garrett and this front? And that's where it gets a little tricky, which I think is basically what Schwartz relies on, right? Like, he relies on like, I'll give you these looks. You're gonna have some man coverage one opportunities, but you're not gonna have the time for it. Is that a fair assessment of what he's, his whole philosophy that essentially is? - I would say so, yeah. I mean, just because he has that type of personnel too, like he wants that, he's the wide nine godfather. When you think of wide nine fronts, which the Giants have incorporated with Shane Bowen, you think of Jim Schwartz. And he's been running a lot of cover three now, a lot of just not necessarily gain certain depth and play down like the New York Giants, but just cover three, match, and then we'll run man coverage. They're gonna incorporate quarters as well. And I'm intrigued to see exactly what they do to slow down Malik neighbors. But I think the Giants have to go into this football game with a similar approach that they didn't week to. And that is establish a run, work the play action passing attack, target Malik neighbors. The duo runs, especially, right? It's gonna be hard with power gap, 'cause these guys, man, especially Jock, J-O-K, Jeremiah Ousu-Koramoa, and Grant Delpit, the safety that they took in the second round out of LSU, who was hurt in the draft. Those guys are some of the most instinctive, quick, and aggressive second-level defenders like you'll ever see. And you combine that with Garrett and Zadariya Smith, and then you have guys like Dalvin Palmlinson up front, like they have a stout defense that can open up holes and allow those guys to penetrate. So on these duo blocks, and it's a positive development that we saw the Giants be able to actually establish those duo blocks against Washington, they need to do that, and then keep up the, getting your eyes on that defender, and then climbing when it's necessary. I'm glad that we saw some development in that area from week one to week two, and I expect to see a similar approach, 'cause if you're in a run power gap, like those guys are so quick and aggressive downhill that they can undercut a lot of those runs and end up tackling Devin Singletary for a loss. So the Giants need to be physical, up front, control the clock, control the ball. It's not like you're scared of the Browns on offense, but that doesn't really matter. Like the Giants hardly possess the football against Washington. You know, like the Giants defense could not get off the fricking football field against a rookie quarterback. Like that's a problem. So yeah, if I'm the Giants, man, I'm not really deviating too much offensively from what they wanted to do from a philosophical standpoint in week two. - Yeah, I think you know that, and I think they're gonna have the opportunity to stay on script, right? Because of what you said with the Sean Watson, which we're gonna get to in a minute, but I look at the what worked last week, and I say, look, the Giants run game, give them a lot of credit. We talked about it on our podcast earlier this week, and we said it was the best offense line of forms. We've probably ever seen all overall when you consider run end pass blocking in our experience covering this team and watching the tape on this team. And you could say all you want about, oh, it was an easy matchup from a pass protection standpoint, but from a run blocking standpoint, that was not that easy of a matchup against Washington. They have a pretty good interior front that you have to get blocked down, like you said on those duo runs. And so it gives me some hope that they can establish the run against Cleveland, which is gonna be incredibly important in this game. I couldn't agree more, man. You nailed it right there. 'Cause I love Dalvin Tomlinson. Dalvin Tomlinson has played 24 snaps in each of the game. They're trying to keep a rotation 'cause Maurice Hurst is on the IR now. So you have Quentin Jefferson, Shelby Harris. These are solid football players, but I think if the Giants are playing as cohesively as they played last week, they're gonna be able to move those guys a little bit or at least open holes enough to allow shifty, small, Devin Singletary to find some rushing room. So I'm hoping that the Giants stick with that, as I said a little bit earlier. - Yeah, because it works in conjunction. Like to get the blocks up front to spring the run game, you also need Singletary. I mean, Devin Singletary right now, Nick leads the NFL, all running backs in forced mistackle, right? Like he has been the best on a per-touch basis. - He's always been pretty good at that, too. - And he's always been pretty good at that, but you know, I put at the tape this week, we showed it on our show. He looked really good at it against Washington. So like there will be opportunities where maybe it's not blocked up perfect, but Singletary's able to create that yardage himself with just understanding where to set up and where to make his cuts, essentially, and where the space is after the cut. Something he does a really good job of, but I like the idea, at least, Nick, that the Giants are gonna be able to. I'm definitely a little worried about the passing game in this game, 'cause look, the Giants come into this thing, Nick, with the eighth best pass production, the NFL from a composite score standpoint. Even if we think that's closer to 10 or 12 or 14, it's better than it's ever been for this team. Like this pass reduction is clear, it should be night and day obvious to anyone who's watching this team. You don't even need the tape. Just whatever you've seen on Brock, as you know, the pass pro's been better. Week one wasn't as good as week two, but week one was still pretty good. It was just a rattled quarterback who kind of made it look a little bit worse, a lot worse than it was. So the key for me is just not getting this quarterback rattled in this game. So the way to do that, I think, is just establish the run. And now, look, things can change, and we'll get this in a moment, because if the Sean Watson finds what he used to be, which I just, so weird, what a weird career this guy's had. Like, I understand he took time off from football, Nick, but it's almost like he's forgotten everything he was or learned as a quarterback. I've never seen this kind of just drop off at such a young age for a quarterback. I know, again, I know he missed time, but that doesn't fully explain what's happened. So let's go to that side of the ball, because Giant's defense was putrid last week against a rookie quarterback, and what I thought was a pretty middling-to-bad play caller. Now he faces what I think is a very good play caller. He gives him some fansky. But I don't want to call him a rookie quarterback to Sean Watson, but not a good quarterback. Like, he sucks now at this position. I don't know, again, I don't understand it, but you watched it. Like, you see his ball placement is way off. I wonder how much the shoulder injuries are. - He had long deliveries. - Very long lineup that I don't know. - He kind of had a long delivery in college too. - Dead, he did, but it feels even longer now. - Yeah. - Maybe it's not. With the Texans, you know, he's making plays off structure, you know, off-platform a lot. We don't see that anymore really in his tape, like, sometimes, but not the way it used to be. - I think he heard him. - One week too. - It has up like, yeah. He'll still have moments of flashes. We're like, "Oh, that's the guy I remember." But it's just not consistent at all. So what are your thoughts on, can the Giants right to ship against this quarter? Because they weren't really able to against the quarterback Jane Denz, so I didn't think did that much good on tape. Really? - I think they, I mean, I think they can. It depends on how, like, again, so one reason why I think the defenses look so bad is because it's new and they have a lot of young pieces and they're relying so heavily on the linebackers and also on Dexter Lawrence and also on their second year first round pick who isn't a dominant number one quite yet, but we look at him and like, pencil him in. Like, we have, like, I love Deontay Banks. I think he's a baller. I think he's a very good football player. But who's behind him right now? Like, Nick McCloud is still dealing with his knee injury. And then you're looking at 28 out there. Like, Cordell Flod, again, he shouldn't be out on the football field and you have to put him out there. Drew Phillips has fallen out of his mind so far in his rookie season. It's gonna come down to stopping the run. The Giants surrendered, what, like over 200 yards on the ground against-- - Yes. - Against Washington, they got torn shreds against Washington. And some of that was execution. Some of that was good pre-snap motion, displacing the linebackers by Cliff Kingsbury and Washington's offense and just the threat of Jane Daniels' legs as well. DeSean Watson doesn't necessarily have that. So the Giants need to stop Foreman, who was their number one running back last week. He was out there on the first drive. And it seemed to me that they wanted to have a ground-and-pound type of approach. And Joker was not there. And there was more big tight end. They used the H-back position, which is typically a tight end. They brought in their third tackle and had him in motion as a lead blocker. There were a couple where the tight end was just an extra tackle. So they want to run the football. And they're probably looking at the tape, saying Giants can't really stop the run. So whenever 97's not out there, they're probably gonna run it right down the New York Giants throw. But when 97 is out there, they're still gonna attempt to run the football. They're gonna incorporate different types of runs, whether it be zones, power gap, things like that. They had a nice little end-around, Jerry Judy last week. So I think it all starts at that. Stop the damn run and force DeShawn Watson to beat you. - Right. - That's simple. I know that's very, very simplistic, but if the Giants can enforce third and six, and we've been saying this for freaking how long now, but if they can force third and six, which you should be able to against this quarterback and this offense, and I do trust to fans. I think it's to fansky, first off, I think they're gonna move the football in the first drive because he's one of the best play designers. Going into a game, he understands how to design an opening script. He always has. To fansky's been one of the best at that since he was the Minnesota Vikings offensive coordinator. So expect that. But once that fades and adjustments start to happen, I want the Giants to solidify against the run and then force DeShawn Watson to pass and contain Amari Cooper, Jerry Judy, and the rest of that pass. - Right. - But I watch Amari, and he actually looked like shit. Last week, he had a really bad drop, but he was wide open 'cause he cooked a guy on the line as well. - Yeah, it's separation skills. - Yeah. - Separation skills are-- - Yeah, I just think it's just a total bust to me. - He's crazy. - But he's just, there's something wrong there. And I loved his tape coming out of college. I still had lamb, I'm happy I had lamb as my wide zero one in that class like that. Not everybody had that. A lot of people had Judy. I just loved lamb and Oklahoma. I couldn't believe he wasn't the clear cut one. But Judy, I thought was gonna be right there with him. Like I thought it was a good pick. Like I didn't really think this would happen to his career. And now there, like we should be looking at this wide receiver court with reverence, right? Judy, Elijah Moore, a player we both loved on tape who just hasn't been what we expected he would be at the NFL level. Amari Cooper, they have like Cedric Tillman on this roster. Remember Tillman? Like our boy, like they got guys on this roster at wide receiver. They really invested so heavily in the position but they don't have a passing attack because their quarterback sucks. And this is just like, it's like the Browns are like a Mike Croz and what we've been saying on this podcast for five years about everything in the passing game does revolve around the quarterback. Even the people don't wanna acknowledge it. And that's why this passing game sucks. And that's why it's beatable for the Giants. The question is, like you said, are they going to be able to shut down the run first and shut down the quick passing that they weren't able to shut down first? So they have to put Deshawn in these tough spots that he hasn't been put in or that he has been put in but like the Giants haven't necessarily put the quarterbacks in in the first two weeks. And that's the question that we're gonna have to figure out. It's a beat up goal line that should be able to. I also just think this running game is just not the same without Nick Chub. I know it's also the injuries on the old line but it's just everything looks different from when I've watched the Browns without Chub. And that's kudos to him making a more of an impact, a running back, making a more of an impact than we think. I just think he's such a unique runner and he's so good at understanding where to set up his box and really running in this specific system that I'm not so sure four minutes or four it is for this system. So then that helps the Giants. They're gonna have a leg up and stopping the run. They're gonna be able to go against the beat up goal line. A quarterback who just does not have it anymore. This is like you said, this is it. Like this is the game where the Giants defense has to break out and win the game for the team. - 100% is, this could be like an ugly like, you know, 17 to 14 type of game or even less, right? If you should hit the under, but you never know with the Giants. So I wouldn't place the bets on it. But yeah, man, this offensive line is down, Jack Conklin and Judrick Will. They didn't play last guy. It was made of Dwan Jones. They're gonna use James Hudson. They're gonna work in Zach Zinter at tackle. If you stop the run and force those third and sixth with an erratic quarterback who has completely lost the identity that earned him this contract, that play style that earned him this contract. Brian Burns and Cave Antibidot should be able to defeat these tackles and get after Deshawn Watson. And then you have decks, good luck. Like Betonio's respectable, Wyatt Teller's respectable. Pochik is a good center, but I don't think his skill set fits well to defend a player like Dexter Lawrence. So Lawrence should also feast. And again, if the Giants win this game, it's gonna be in the trenches defensively and offensively because it's just establishing the run. They gotta capitalize on those situations. And then execution is also a big part of it as well. Like the Miss tackles against Washington were infuriating the lack of run-fitting from certain secondary pieces coming in and then just blowing the tackle, leading to a 40-yard Brian Robinson run inexplicably. Those are all aspect. - You got a wash down on that run too. That wasn't great. - Oh, Cave Ant got tackled, it looked like. - Yeah. - Like to me, like, again, you got dominated. It did kinda seem like Bates had him hooked though around the torso, it could have been a hold, but I mean, I could be wrong. But just watching five just get dragged all the way to the center. - That would never happen to Miles Garrett. Like, no matter if he's hooked him and held him or not. It's just a different body type. It goes back to what I said. I know Cave Ant looked bigger to you in person, but I just don't buy into his body type as much as other edges. It's like the elite edges that I normally say. Even Burns who doesn't have it doesn't, isn't like the typical body type either. It's feel like he's sturdier and better against the run. Like from everything I've seen these first two weeks than Cave Antibido. I mean, even on the Burns run, it's like the rep that you broke down earlier this week, Nick, where it's like, he's playing the zone read perfectly. I just haven't seen too many of those plays from Cave Antibido in the run game. And it's just not the biggest guy. But we'll see what happens in this game because this is it for the defense. Like, we've built it up all off season, me and you. We're like, the D line's gonna win them games. The D line's supposed to win them games. This is the system, we rely on the D line. And yet, it hasn't happened yet against what should have been their best match over the year last week against Washington. Again, me and you kind of feel like from watching that game, it's like, I know there's been a lot of discussion on this this week, blame the scheme, blame the players for last week. I don't know, man, I just, I don't know as much of a balls you do, Nick. And clearly don't know as much as some other people who are saying not to blame the scheme but to blame the players. But I just watched it on tape and I just don't think that was the best approach for how to beat that offense and how to put pressure on that quarterback and how to put, you know, speed up his clock and really also put pressure on the offensive line. That's not good. So I hope there's a different game plan against the Sean this week is that it would be a shame if they're able to just move the ball the same way Cleveland was, 'cause guess what? The Giants are not gonna have the same success on offense against this defense as they did Washington. That's the reality of the situation. This Washington defense versus Cleveland defense, I don't care how beat up this defense is on Cleveland, they're still light years ahead of Washington. It's gonna be a nightmare for the most part, most likely for the Giants offense in this game unless they can establish the run. Like you said. Yeah, establish the run and some certain adjustments that you want to see throughout the game and it's not like Bowen didn't adjust against Washington. It's just the adjustments were still being exploited and they were- It was worse, he adjusted the night. My Cliff Kingsbury who was able to adjust off of what they were adjusting to. Like that was the issue. There was like, look, I don't know, like people going back and forth on Twitter about it. To me, it's like to say that was definitely the great game plan is just like, come on. Like I'm not sitting here throwing Shane Bowen on the bus saying he needs to be fine. I understand what this man is working with, with the secondary and some of the lack of the dearth of talent at certain important crucial parts of this defense. I just think it's him sticking to his system per se and that against that coordinator did not work. And that was very evident on the first drive and we didn't see much change from that. And also like acting as if playing a one read and run quarterback, a young quarterback like Jane Daniels with players who are 10 plus 12 plus yards off the football is the only way to play that is fairly. We've seen young quarterbacks like that come into the league so much. And there have been various game plans against them design, not just, hey, I'm going to be 12 yards off the football and you know, that's the way we got to play. Because we got to keep our eyes on the quarterback. It's like, I understand that in theory. Anybody who's played Madden understands that in theory. If you have a running quarterback, you don't want to play too much man coverage and have your back to him. From a theory standpoint, yeah, I get that. But that is such a simple way to look at it. There is so much more to playing the sport of football. You just said it best. You said that, you know, we're not going to see all man coverage from Cleveland and Jim Schwartz, but that doesn't mean that they're going to be playing 10 yards off the ball. There's different ways to play different coverages without having your corners and linebacker so far off the ball or second and third level. Like that. It was also just like how the RPO game was just like screwing the Giants like again, the linebacker. People get like, don't get Bobby O'Karrick or Michael McFadden's shade. 'Cause those guys have so much on their freaking plate what they have to do. You're just a line and three by one set. It kicks one of them out. You bring somebody else in motion. And then it's just a defensive line because the middle of the field is wide open. And I just feel like, yeah. And then O'Karrick talked about it earlier this week, basically saying like, yeah, I got to have to do my job and then somebody else's job. That's not just because of personnel. It is because of personnel, but it's also because there is just so much that's expected of them in this scheme when they, oh, so much what? - Space, there's just so much. - I mean, we're looking at 31s and second and twos where there's so many, like just think of this like just basic football. Like you have 11 guys on defense and only four of them are around the line of scrimmage at a lot of times on the tape. And it was just like, you know, you can count the linebackers as being close to line of scrimmage, but even they're pretty lined up pretty far off the ball. I just don't know, it's just like, we'll see what happens this week 'cause I'm sure he's going to have some adjustment chain bone, but I think you said it best. He had his system, we're not blaming the system. There's plenty of plays the Giants players left on the field, interceptions that could happen. Saxa could have happened where he, you know, he scrambles out of that sack, like I'm a fan sack. Plenty of mistakes are just miscues from the Giants players. But that doesn't also mean that like for the, you know, the best way to play defense is you have your system and you apply it to every quarterback. I think it's actually probably the worst way to play defense to be quite frank unless you have like, you know, Mike, I don't even know who I would use an example. I think you're better off just, you know, using each game plan for each different quarterback. I know Todd Bowles, it looked a lot different than what Todd Bowles did against Jaden Daniels, than what Shane Bowen did against Shane Nails and one worked and the other didn't. And I know they may have more talent, I guess than the Giants, the Bucks. But the Giants should have enough talent at this point on defense. They have a sick D line from a talent standpoint and they have banks and they have safeties who are playing good football and a nickel corner is playing good football and a carrot. - And that argument too would be, would have much more merit if Jaden Daniels didn't rush for 10 plus yards on multiple- - True, true. - Long situation. - When there wasn't a spy there, either. They started spying on him and I think Brian Dable after the game said something to be effective. Yeah, we were spying on him in some of those plays. In the red zone, without a midfield, when he picked up 10 yards and a first down, when you could have forced, I don't know, a novel thing, a punt maybe, like, come on, like saying the scheme isn't an issue in that game is I think disregarding the reality that it actually had a part in this. It wasn't everything, of course. - That played a role. - In a lot of factors, but it did play a role. - I mean, the guy completed 80% of his passes, Jaden Daniels. You don't really want a quarterback completing 80% of passes. - They had the fourth, they had the fourth most yards after the catch. And his ADOT was like five yards. - Yeah. - This episode is brought to you by Honda. When you test drive the all new Pro Log EV, there's a lot that can impress you about it. There's the class leading passenger space, the clean, thoughtful design, and the intuitive technology. But out of everything, what you'll really love most is that it's a Honda. Visit Honda.com/ev to see offers. 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If we can go back to that for a little bit. - Yes. - I think the Giants could go to maybe a little bit more RPO to slow down the aggressive nature of Delpit and Jeremiah Ousu Kormoa. Possibly even. You don't wanna really make Miles Garrett. You could try to make Miles Garrett the redefender. It's risky 'cause he is very- - Yeah, you don't want that. - But I think that's something maybe they could, that we've seen successfully employed by Brian Dable in the past, that we didn't see a ton in these first two weeks. And I saw Trevor Lawrence try it. It's a moderate success. But Daniel Jones, I think, has been a better quarterback at discerning. When to tuck it, when to throw it. If there's one thing Daniel Jones does pretty well, it's that. Think about like 2022 when they ran much more RPO. Did we really complain much about Daniel Jones making the wrong decision in those situations? He did it so much in college. That was David Cutcliffe's. - Yeah, right. - A lot of RPO still. - A lot of RPO still. So that could help the Giants and allow Daniel Jones to make those quick decisions, read a defender, eliminate a possible blocker with that defender and put the defense in conflict while running the football when it presents itself or finding Wanda Robinson on a bubble if it does present itself. Again, this is gonna kind of come down to how the defense is playing it. But it's an option that I hope to see a little bit more of in this game. - I think it's a great point. And I'll say this on that note. Maybe not for this game, but just overall. I feel like the entire time that Brian Dable's work with Daniel Jones, and by all accounts, he likes working with Daniel Jones, at least that's what we know. He's done everything in his power to simplify things for Jones. Year one, he created that whole offense that in my mind just made Jones have a very simplified idea. Like you drop back, you look at your first read if it's not their run. So then this year, the new system, it's finding new ways last week to get the Baltimore League neighbor's hands. Very simplified though. Like if you look at the stats of last week, League neighbors has the highest first read target of any receiver so far through two weeks. It just shows that like neighbors has been the first read for Jones. Jones is still what he is, and they've just found a way to make it work. So they use more guys in, you know, they run, have fewer wide receivers running routes because what's the point? You're only gonna go to your first read most of the time anyway. So if that's the case, I kind of knocked Dable a little bit for not having RPO be a bigger part of this offense because that was what Cutcliffe did with Jones at Duke. And it's another way to simplify the game for quarterback who struggles with processing. Have run RPO, it's really, and he runs it pretty well. Like Jones has a lot of experience running RPO. He can run, he can tuck it, he can give it to the back. He can hit that quick slant, it's three options for him. It's very simple, three options for him. He doesn't have to go through a bunch of progressions and, you know, worry, we don't have to worry about stuff. But it really hasn't been a big part of this offense. It was better, more part of the offense with Garrett. It was more part of the offense even with Schurmer in his first year. So I'm gonna use that as a knock on Dable. Not only do you think I should see it this week, I think you should do it every week as long as Jones is your starting quarterback because why not give him another option of kind of very simple offense that works for what his skill set is? Yeah, I don't know if I want to knock Dable per se. They had an offensive philosophy and week one, it was just, they got punched in the freaking mouth. You could say, I guess in week one, for sure. But their offensive philosophy worked relatively well against Washington. I know people would be like, "Oh, they only threw for 178 yards." And it's like, absolutely. That's not that bad for Daniel Jones. And also, I think a lot of that is due to the defense too. The defense, like it's football, everything's complimentary. The offense worked in week two. It really did, her possessions work. Which again, it's not saying much 'cause it is Washington's defense quite possibly the worst defense in the league. But the game plan worked. They were able to establish the one. They got in the red zone. Daniel Jones had two touchdown passes in the red zone and Devin Singletary had a nice run in the red zone. So they were able to successfully move the ball. Just they didn't have the ball all that often 'cause their defense couldn't get off the freaking field. And a lot of it was first read. Like again, the league neighbors leads the NFL and first read targets by far. Like you see the-- All the way up. All the way up. Those plays are schemed. A lot of them are scheming what is the first read. Yes, they're schemed up to get the ball to the first read. Whoever that may be in its neighbors. But point being like, again, Dable's doing another thing. Like we saw it in '22, we saw it last. We're selling it again. Every time he has Jones, the scheme is give him a first read. Give him a clean first read that the offense can design itself around. I feel like RPO is gonna give him very defined rules, right? Like running that a lot more will give him very defined rules. And he's been pretty good at figuring out when to keep it, when to hand it, and when to throw it. So I know, I just hope it is part of the game plan. This game and kind of going forward as long as Jones is the quarterback 'cause he was pretty good with it under Garrett. - It's really 'cause the consternation that it forces on those second level defense. I'm scared of Delpet and Woosu Kormo. Those guys are very good. And they were very good against Jacksonville. So now they're gonna be at home against the Giants. And I'm telling you, man, everybody who covers the Cleveland Browns right now, they're looking at this game. And they're probably saying, if we don't blow the Giants out, then this is a loss for us. This is not good. Like they're all expecting to kick the crap out of the Giants because they have not had the start that they wish that they had as well. - 'Cause they're getting the right game. - It's their get right. The Giants are the get right team at the moment. So the Giants can go in there and compete and actually punch them in the face and make this a very competitive game down to the wire. Hopefully they frickin' win the game somehow. That would be huge. And you know, it would be great for their reputation. Even though everyone outside of Cleveland looks at Cleveland and they're like, I don't know what the hell's going on with them. They have a good defense, but DeShawn Watson sucks, right? So it's, I just, I hope they don't get embarrassed. And there is a pathway to them getting embarrassed. I don't think they will get embarrassed. So with that, do you want to get into our predictions? - Yeah, let's do it. I'll let you go first. - Yeah, I think this is going to be a close game. I think this is going to be a low scoring game. And I think the Giants find a way to lose it somehow. I can see them winning it with the defensive line, taking over, game script, lucky bounce of the ball type of thing. But I'm going to, I think the Giants' offense is going to have problems with the Browns defense and the Giants lose this. Let's go with, I'm going to say 17 to 10. - Okay, the last week we were, I think you picked Giants the win. I picked Giants the lose last week. - How many? - No, I'm not an idiot. But, you know, the way I picked them to lose was I was just worried about Jones looking so uncomfortable and rattled. That wasn't the case. They ended up losing his defense last week, which I didn't think would be the coach on the coach. Going into this week, I want to say, "Oh, okay." So I saw that, you know, Jones had really improved. He got back on track. But I'm just not confident that it wasn't because he was facing the Washington defense, the worst in the NFL. And I've seen this Cleveland defense man, they put some, they make it so hard for quarterbacks. It doesn't matter who it is. Like, I watched Trevor Lawrence really struggle against this offense, sorry, this defense last week. And I just don't think they're going to do anything different against Jones. They're not going to play off against him. They're going to really make him speed up his clock. And when Jones is forced to speed up his mental clock, it's already a problem his mental clock to begin with. Can't put any more of like, let's be honest, Washington didn't do anything to Jones there. Like, Jones had all day, we watched the tape, we put the tape out. The pass protection was perfect, almost the entire game for Jones. He took one hit on a deep ball to neighbors. And like, a few more he had to kind of step up through the pressure, exterior pressure. But then he still found the throwing lane. Other than that, he's just standing in clean pockets all game. It's the cleanest, the cleanest game we've ever seen Daniel Jones play when it comes to him not getting hit. Yeah, yeah, it's the cleanest game he's ever played, which is and it's sad for him that he's gone through that, like in his career. I totally empathize with the fans who are really feel bad for him that he's been put through this. But it's not going to be the case against Cleveland. That's just the reality of the situation, not just because of Miles Garrett, but because of what Jim Schwartz does. So their only option here is to kind of establish the run and dominate on defense, to dominate to Sean Watson. Unfortunately, for me, I don't think that to Sean Watson is going to get dominated because it's hard for me to find confidence in this defense right now, despite the talent they have. I personally have questions about Shane Bowen and his scheme. I look back and I'm not even sure what role Shane we talked to all about. Oh my God, you remember this Titans defense in 2021? I'm not even sold on the role that he played. It might've just been Braveles defense to be quite frank and Braveles running that show. I remember talking to somebody about the Titans and they had the other opinion. Somebody who covered the Titans, they said that Shane Bowen was the up and comer and Braveles was kind of holding him back and Bowen was actually the defensive coordinator in 2020, but it was Braveles while they think had the title and then in 2021 they announced it and they had good personnel. And look, man, things could stabilize. It's still very early. And I think this is a true test for Shane Bowen. Now, they have huge yards picked up and there is like overt mistakes. Cordell Flock gets burnt, DJ Davidson gets buried in the deck leading to a 30 yard rush. Like we can look at them and be like, that's not on Bowen. If we see necessary adjustments and we can come to that conclusion through the all 22 tape and we'll report that to the listeners, of course. But if Stafansky is using pre-snap motion, if he is getting the defense going one way and hitting in the other way and you just see the defense rattled and guys catching the football and there's 20 yards of separation between them and the next frickin New York giant, that's where I'm gonna start being really frickin concerned. Okay. - With the scheme, man. - With the scheme and just the lack of understanding within the scheme and the communication. I think some of them were communicative errors. I'm sure Bowen has dialed that into the brains of the New York Giants. But again, a lot of the communication errors fell on the plate of the linebackers who had so much on their frickin plate already. And I'm not gonna blame them per se for that. 'Cause I don't know if those young secondary pieces are quite up to speed yet with the players like Michael McFadden and Bobby O'Kareke were handling a cunt. And that includes Tyler Neuben, who I remain very high on. But this is his second frickin game, okay? So I just hope that we don't see Stefanzky dance around the Giants defense. And if he does, and DeShawn Watson is holding the football for 15 more minutes than the Giants offense, it's not great. - There's no chance. Yeah, 'cause we don't get the Washington defense. That's kind of the point right there, yeah. And I also have a lot of reverence and respect for Stefanzky as a play caller. So I, unfortunately, I think this is gonna be an ugly one for the Giants. I think it's gonna get out of hand. Potentially a pick six from Jones, potentially a fumble six or something like that. I think DeShawn will move it decently against this defense 'cause I do, like you said, I just trust to Stefanzky, I don't trust Bowen right now. I don't do these often, but you have to call a spade a spade and you have to just say what you're feeling going into a game. I think it's gonna be like 30 to 13 Browns in this game. Yeah, unfortunately, with some late touchdowns, it's gonna be, it's not gonna be like a blowout from the start. It's just gonna be like a game where the Giants are kinda in it for a while and then it gets really out of hand. That's kind of what I see happening. People on the side, Giants players on the sideline, like just like looking absolutely dejected, could be like that, man. And it's bad 'cause if it gets to O and three with a blowout loss, it's gonna be different than getting to O and three with a close loss. 'Cause a blowout loss starts to really open wounds and it starts to really turn into, you know what you're getting from the New York media from the beat writers. After that, you're getting a lot of fire-dable comments, a lot of fire-dable articles, questions-to-dable where he's gonna have these long stares at reporters and freak out and say the stuff he's gonna say. If it's a close game, it won't be like that. It still will, but it's not to the extent of like, they're going for his head. If they get blown out in this game of Giants, they're gunning for Dable's head. And not only that, if they get blown out in this game, that's when the Jones questions will immediately start. Just an immediate at that point. And rightfully so, like no offense to Jones, but he's got an injury guarantee. Once the Giants are out of the playoffs, he should not be playing this year. It's a fact of the matter of the situation. If the Giants are limited from playoff convention, there's just no upside to playing Daniel Jones with his injury history and the 25 million or whatever it is that you'd have to put on the cap next year if he gets hurt again. There's no more figuring it out, finding it out, developing this guy. They're owing to, they lost to Washington. It wasn't his fault, but I mean, he also completed 57% of his passes and didn't, I think, I think, shout out to authentic for the stat. 90% of his completions were six yards, air yards are shorter. Like, guys, we can react, we have a reality chat on. What'd you say? Against the worst defense in the NFL. So, like, if he gets blown out by Cleveland and can't move the ball and looks awful like we won, it's just like, we're getting to the point where, like, what's the point of this at that point? And I hate to add this negative cherry on top to see your claim. No life right now. No, I know, but the Giants play Thursday night football. And typically, these road teams against Dallas, these road teams, teams that are on the road, but then at the travel back home and prepare for a division rival, a huge game against the Dallas Cowboys this early in the season. I'm not saying they're taking it lightly in Cleveland, but it does seem like a lot of teams who end up playing Thursday night football struggle in the previous week. Before you're right, there's a trend in that. So, that's something else to factor in here. It's a lot. It's a lot going on. I'm sorry that I had to be negative there at the end. I mean, I'm not sorry, actually. It's just, you know, have to be real on this podcast. We're going to try to be objective. We're not just here to home it out at all times. We try to have a positive how, look, I'm pretty sure we try to. Like, I'll be honest, I know we do, Nick, because I know neither of us were really sold on that Jones contract. And we look for the positives. And we said, look, he did take, and it's real. Like, he took steps in 2022, pocket management-wise. Like, he started to look better. You make great throws on the plate. Like, it was fair to assume that they're signing them on a projection and maybe everything that happened in his past didn't matter. And he's just a new quarterback. We've learned since that's not the case. And it's just, here's what it is. - No, no, you want to know, it's like kind of crazy, too, about that situation. I'm just kind of going off the cuff. I haven't put a lot of thought into this. The Saquon Barkley pick and the Saquon Barkley situation kind of led to that contract. 'Cause if it wasn't for that, they would have franchised tagged him. So it's just kind of ironic and funny that the pick that was much maligned by this podcast back in 2018, second overall, Saquon Barkley, stud of the player, but the Giants were in no position to spend a first round pick that high on a running back, comes back somehow and helps lead to the decision that extends a quarterback that we don't really believe in. - What's crazy is that like, you know, you come in, you're a new GM, you're a new head coach, and it seems like the best case scenario, you shock the world, you're predicted to win no games, you make the playoffs and you win a playoff game. But what's crazy is like the irony of it is if things spiral this year, it's gonna end up being the reason that both of them get fired. - I know that. - 'Cause they otherwise would have been able to move on from this earlier, the whole core that they had in 2022, which clearly wasn't a long-term vision or like a long-term beacon of success. Maybe they would have been at a different point. It's interesting. When we get to the point we're gonna get to Nick, you're gonna hear some crazy opinions out of me because I'm gonna be on team. First of all, we know the Giants are almost definitely gonna draft a quarterback this draft. That's just how they operate. And I don't think that's always a good thing. I feel like they're this regime, one thing I knock I would have about them, they are a little needs-based at times. And I know they'll draft a quarterback. And I'm just gonna prep the people now because when it happens, I am gonna be on team, I am willing to draft a quarterback again the next year. If they are bad with that quarterback in his first year and I have a chance at fucking archer-manning or any of those types of talents, I, Brayola, if I think he's in that class or I'm not even sure he might be the one after, I will be 100% willing to draft over back or whoever the hell is our quarterback. We have to be very aggressive at quarterback from this point on. It can't just be, we just draft in one, let's give him time. If there's an Arizona opportunity to go from Rose and to Kyler, we're taking that opportunity. - Absolutely so, I'm gonna put you on the spot. Bryce Young. - Oh, what in a trade or something? - Yeah. - Or no. We've been asked about this all week. I have zero interest in Bryce Young. I don't know if you have zero interest. - Zero, I wouldn't even trade a seven-ground pick because you have to take on the contract. - Oh yeah, and it's about 10 million a year for two years. It's too much. - I just don't see-- - I don't write it off as, I don't write, look, I don't write it off as easily. People are like, this is the dumbest thing. I don't write it off that easily. I know-- - It's not that tough. - Like a seven. I don't think, like financially, if you can make it work, he would be like that, like a Justin Fields type of swing. See if you could salvage anything. And I was never really the biggest Bryce Young guy because I don't like short light quarterbacks, but this was somebody who was not the consensus, but almost the consensus number one overall pick in 2023. He is somebody who has a lot of, I would say a lot of tape to say and suggest that he has a lot of talent. And he went to the stone worst situation, the stone worst organization in the Carolina Panthers. So it would have to be obviously like a seventh round pick or like a seven, six swap. Something Crazy Giants could not give up anything for this 'cause they're absorbing about 10 million a year, I think. And for this season and the next season, I don't even know if they could make that work, but I don't, like I saw a lot of people shitting on it, I understand it, why they would. I don't think it's the craziest thing 'cause right now, as the Giants, we are in the mode where it's like, I am going to take those swings at quarterback and see if I can find something. I think that's where we're at. 'Cause we were against that in the draft, if it wasn't Drake May or Jane Daniels or Alex Kayla Williams. We were against that though because the opportunity cost was Malik Neighbors, was Joe All, was a very good football player. Right now, the opportunity cost is a little bit of cap space. So I get it. I'm not a big believer in Bryce Young, but I don't think it's a crazy thing to entertain. - I don't think it's crazy. I just said no because that would be my decision. It's not like a no, like I could never do it. I just look at Eileen, so Eileen more toward the idea of like, at the time, I remember when Rosen really first busted, it's like, oh, should we trade for Rosen? And I was on the camp with that just because of like what I saw on tape at UCLA. And I know a lot, you agreed. His table was good at UCLA. I don't know what I was like. - It was good, dude. - Yeah, it's a very weird situation. - I think I think Rosen didn't have like, yeah. So I don't think he had the right mentality. - And I'm not so sure like from that standpoint, like I just have learned the lesson from that. I feel like in my mind, at least like, these guys are bust early in the NFL career. I don't want to keep just like betting on them to be something else. I know sometimes it can change like Darnold right now. - Darnold and Baker. And both of them are aware at one point, looking like shit. - But Darnold and Baker, first of all, has way better arm-town in my opinion than Bryce Young. I think it's underrated arm-town. - And so does Darnold. - And so does Darnold. So like if, and Darnold has size, Baker doesn't have the size, but Darnold has size. So like, even Baker has better size than Bryce Young, but like Bryce Young has like debilitating size for the NFL. - Bryce Young is like your size. - Yeah. - Like he's your baby. - Oh yeah, dude, he's very small. And it is kind of crazy. And you know what, it sucks for shorter people. Bryce Young just set back shorter people. 'Cause like I feel like the NFL was trending towards like, ah, you heights not that big of a role. We're all so Wilson, Baker Mayfield, Drew Brees. First off, Drew Brees is an outlier of outliers. Okay. So like we can't compare people to like true Hall of Famers. It's starting to look like Sean Payton, Drew Brees. Sean Payton was much more riding the coattails of Drew Brees rather than Drew Brees. - It's going to happen with all these Hall of Famers. We're seeing him with Brady, Belichick. It's like what is- - Belichick's a stud though. - The Brady Belichick's a stud. - Belichick's a stud, but like at the same time, he's not stud enough to win without Brady, which is just shows like, and I agree, he's a stud. It's not my point. My point isn't like, oh, Belichick was riding Brady's coach. My point is like, how much more evidence do we need that quarterbacks everything in this league and that a quarterback will change your whole franchise and your whole team? How do we have millions of examples and we still have fans arguing against this? Like, Jesus Christ, at some point, just read the tea leaves of the situation. If you can find one of these dudes, everything fricking changes for your franchise and everything changes around this player. Like, you can even make careers of coaches out of this stuff. - I love the evolution of the NFL too, because Payton Manning, what was that, 2013, when he went to Denver? And that was like such, or 2020, whatever it was, it was such a big deal, right? Oh, we got Payton Manning and a lot of other teams like, oh, well, you just like trade for your quarterback like that. Like, it wasn't as common. And a lot of teams started attempting to replicate that. And we've seen hits. Like, Payton Manning was a massive hit. They got a Super Bowl out of it, even though he was hitting the ladder stage of his career and got hardly until the football, like 30 yards. And then you've seen him like-- - He just won that's where it was just like, pre-snapped processing. - Like, that was just a division. - It's like, yeah. - But like, it was the Stadevens that led it, but at the same time, like, he did enough from an offensive standpoint, but it was all just pure mental. - I feel like I'm watching that. It wasn't like anything physical. He's just like, let me figure this thing out, pre-snapped. I'm good enough at that. And then I'm good enough post-nap. I'll just like, get the ball to this open space. - That was awesome, man. It was awesome. But then there was also teams trading for Russell Wilson, the Broncos. How did that work out? There were a lot of misses. You have hits like Tom Brady going like Tampa Bay. You know, this can be done via free agency or via trade than just Sean Watson. 'Cause my, my point is teams have realized like, hey, we need to get a quarterback. Like it's very desperate. And the Browns had Baker Mayfield. So they had a quarterback who now is playing like a very, like a top echelon type of quarterback. - Yeah. - Certainly in the season, he's playing very well. And he won a playoff game last year. And it wasn't the Daniel Jones type of winning a playoff game, not the crap on the New York Giants quarterback. Like he is throwing with the anticipation. He's dialed into that offense. This is a new offense for him right now. And he's dialed into it so far through two games. But the Browns were like, we need to trade and get our guy to Sean Watson as our guy. Sean Watson had what, like 20 misconduct, sexual misconduct on his resume. Like there was so much going on, but they were that desperate to still get the quarterback then. - I know. - And it blew up in the face. But my point is they're risking it to get somebody despite all the noise around them. Like it just goes to show you that all of these general managers understand how important it is to get that damn quarterback. And now the Cowboys, they understood too. And they gave back Prescott the contract right before week one because it looked like he's part of ways. - Yeah. And that to me speaks to something a little bit different, not that Sean was maybe the Dak one, which is just like, it's so hard to get even to this baseline level, that if we have this baseline level, the player like Dak, we can't even afford to lose it. But to my point, like if you have the opportunity to get that next level talent, and that's what I think is when this comes in. Then I think you throw out everything, you throw out opportunity calls, you go out what you just did. And that could be the case for the Giants in 2025 and 2026 'cause they're gonna draft a quarterback round one in 2025 and we'll sure of it if Shane gets another year. That's like his year. And I hope that he has the wherewithal to understand that if he gets presented, if the Giants are bad in that first year with that quarterback in 2025. And it doesn't matter how good he looks, remember Jones, all I had 24 TDs, my rookie, or despite having a negative EPA, and basically piling them all up against three bad defenses. And like, we can't even consider moving on to Justin Herbert. We can't even consider drafting Justin Herbert in this class. We have Jones, he looked pretty good. I'm saying I'm gonna be strongly in the opposite camp of I don't care how good that guy looks. Like I don't see like elite type of upside from that guy. And quite frankly, in this current 2025 class, Nick, I don't really see any quarterback with elite type of upside. Maybe that'll change, but it seems unlikely to me. I don't like, yes, people emerge, but like not to that extent, not to the elite upside. And I look at that 2026 class. I just saw one game of arch-manning and people are like, you're crazy, man. You're just basing this off a one game against UTSA. Like, no, I'm not dude. I'm basing it off of the traits that he put on display in that game. He has a huge freaking quarterback who can run and then throws drops like dime touch passes with trajectory that's perfectly layered. Layers throws and has arm talent. Like arm strength, layers throws, big. Obviously, you know he's gonna be a good process. Just play the position his whole life on his and can run like that. If the Giants have an opportunity at that type of prospect, don't give a F how good the rookie is they draft. I will take that quarterback and this is what I'll be, I'm just giving a little preview of what's gonna happen on this podcast. I will take that arch-type prospect and I will trade the other guy. I don't care if I get a two or three. I don't give a F, I don't care what I missed out on by taking the receiver or whatever it was that draft before. Get me that talent at quarterback. Find a way to get me the Stroud, the burrow, the arch. The guys that change your whole fandom. Stroud has changed the whole fandom for the Texans in one year. Burrow has changed the whole fandom for the Bengals. These guys change everything for you. Fast too. They do it fast, the real talent. So, and I'm not so sure at 2020, I'm glad you're gonna have that. - I absolutely love the fact that you brought that up and it also goes to show man like fortune favors the bold. So you remember when the Texans drafted CJ Stroud and then they traded up to three and everyone was like, why would you do that? You guys are gonna suck this year, but they wanted to get that defensive piece who was gonna be the face of their defense. - And he is. - And he is. Will Anderson. And I remember saying like, I kind of like that, man. Like you have Gumshan, you want that guy. That's your dude, go and get him, man. And I'm glad that is working out for Houston 'cause they showed, you know, Cajonas, man. They showed it, dude. And they were like, it's what we're gonna do. We're gonna build this identity and we're gonna change the Houston Texans around from the absolute tire fire that they have been. Even when they had to show Watson and they were going to playoffs. There were still a lot of stuff going on with Jack Easterby and Bill O'Brien. It was a weird situation. And now they have this identity with CJ Stroud on his rookie contract. Good for them, man. - Hell yeah, I'm with you on that one, Nick. And hopefully the Giants can do that at some point as well to be that team that gets, that makes that step forward with that transcending talent. But for now, we're a team that's just hoping to win one game this week against the Washington, or I'm sorry, Jesus, against the Cleveland Browns after that Washington commander's loss. Get to one and two, put something back on, you know, show us something we've never seen, Jones, this game, you know, against the top defense. Essentially, we've really never seen. Have we seen him really have an amazing game against a really good defense in his career as Jones? - I'm really good defense. I hate the fact that we're not coming up with one right now. - I'm talking about like a great game from Jones individually against a great defense. That's what I would consider Cleveland to be a borderline great defense. I don't know if he's done it ever in his career. - I don't think so either. - Which is so- - I'm not trying to discredit the guy. It's just like, maybe he did it against Dallas. Did he have any good games against Dallas? Maybe one time, I don't know. At some point, maybe he's had a really good, I mean, the guy hasn't had a lot of really good games anyway, so it is what it is. But like, look, hopefully he can do it this week, Nick. Hopefully he can do it against Cleveland. I don't know, we're at this point, man. It's all about hope. We, you know, I don't know. It's a weird spot. It's the weirdest place we've ever been as a podcast and obviously as a fan base. And people analyzing this game, it's a weird spot the Giants are at right now, man, as a franchise. So I'm just hoping they can surprise us. And you know, what will be wrong? Daniel Jones hasn't completed 60% of his passes against Dallas or more than 60% of his passes against Dallas in 2021. Yeah, he's had a rough time against Dallas. That was a 2020 season, actually, because it was January 3rd. Yeah, but I'm sure it wasn't like a three touchdown game or like a two, eight year, anything that those don't happen a lot. No, I think the most passing yards ever had against Dallas was 229 yards back. It was that game. You had two touchdowns out there. Was that the game that against Andy Dalton at the Giants won? I don't know. We're spiraling here. We're spiraling here. We got any touchdown week though, against Washington. We got to get him going to play out and kill him up. Yeah, heinecke. Yeah, we're spiraling. We're just talking. This is turned from a preview into just like a vent session for Nick and I and for hopefully other Giants fans who are trying to feel something with this team again, because that's where we're at. Thank you for tuning in. Appreciate your support. Still gonna break down date. We're still gonna get to see all these young players and hopefully they can actually play good football at some point and play up to the talent that's on this roster, is actual talent on this roster. The coaches have to figure it out. That's it. Have a great rest of your week and we'll talk to you soon. 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