Here's another show you can enjoy in the true story FM family of entertainment podcasts. Hey Pete, ever wonder what Steven Spielberg's favorite film is? You know, Andy, I've heard he loves classics like Lawrence of Arabia, maybe in St. Louis. Imagine chatting with him about why those films resonate with him so much. That's exactly what we do on our podcast. Movies we like, we've had incredible guests like actress D Wallace, cinematographer Eric Mezerschmitt, director Steve Miner and former Disney animators Tom and Tony Bancroft. They share their favorite films and the impact they've had on their careers, offering fascinating insights into the craftsmanship and storytelling techniques that make these movies so special. If you're curious about the magic behind the scenes, subscribe to Movies We Like from True Story FM on your favorite podcast app. New episodes are released on the fourth Monday of each month with early access for our members. Join us on Movies We Like as we explore the movies we all like with the people who make them. And Steven, our people will call your people. Let's make this happen, Bubby. Subscribe today. What's up most excellent friends? It's Chrissy and Nathan from the most excellent 80s movies podcast. It's a podcast where a filmmaker and a comedian and their most excellent guests adventure their way through the 80s movies we think we love or might have missed with our grown up eyes to see how they hold up. Join us for a delightful discussion. Rolicking recaps. Ratings and deep cut recommendations. Plus members get some extra fun chit chat with the hosts after the show. Download the most excellent 80s movies podcast today at truestory.fm or find it wherever the finest podcast are stored. And do remember to keep the most excellent 80s movies podcast motto in mind. Be excellent to each other and party on dudes. Hello and welcome to this rebroadcast episode of the superhero ethics podcast. How often have you heard someone say, Oh, I don't want to watch that. It's just for kids. When the fact is that not only is a lot of quote unquote kids media really enjoyable, but a lot of it can wrestle with questions that are just as deep as anything that has an R even higher rating. A while back, Paul and I did an episode. There were two movies out at that time, Ryan the Last Dragon and Luca. And we talked about both of those movies as well as this general idea and how the two of them both looked at some similar issues in our own world and how they talked about them in the world of those two different movies. They're great movies. They approach things in different ways. We had a great time discussing them and just really taking on this idea of what does it mean to have a quote unquote kids movie that really raises some interesting issues. All that in that episode of Ryan Luca and the wisdom of kids movies right after this. Hello and welcome to this episode of superhero ethics. Today we're talking about kids movies. Kids movies? That's kind of the idea. We're going to be talking about Luca, Ryan the Last Dragon and just the idea of what does it mean to be a kids movie and what can we learn from them? All that more after commercial break, we have no control over. Welcome back, my name is Matthew. I'm a host. I'm joined by a special guest, Paul Hoppe. Paul, how are we doing tonight? Medium. Physically, I went to the doctor the first time in a couple of years because I'm going pandemic and whatnot. I got a tetanus shot because they're like, "Hey, do you want a tetanus shot?" And I was like, "Sure, I'll get a tetanus shot." And it's a little painful. But mentally and emotionally, I'm like two thumbs up. Awesome. Awesome. Good to hear it. Some call me, some call me. How are you? I'm dealing with a bit of a rough throat at the moment. I will hopefully keep most of my throat clearing edited out, but I apologize if a little bit sneaks through or to those of you who are on Twitch. We're out once again recording live on Twitch, so if people have questions or comments or feedback or thoughts or anything at all, please kind of jump right in the chat and we'll get to it either in the moment or definitely before we wrap up. So, well, it's going to just jump right into this topic because what we're talking about today is it's kind of two things. Now, I'm kind of going to give you an evolution of how we came to this topic. Paul, you had been really excited about the movie "Ria" and "The Last Dragon." And I finally got around to watching that. And then, had you told me that Luca was very good or did I talk to you about Luca or did we just both watch it independently? I, so I watched Luca and I was like, "Hey, have you seen Luca?" And you were like, "No." And I was like, "Oh, okay." You know, and I might have been like, put it on the list. I think you might have said you were going to, so I just didn't really say much about it. But I had watched it when it came out. Lee wanted to watch. She always wants to watch that animated movie, basically. Right. And I don't know. I enjoy animation at least as much as live action, possibly more, a lot of the time. So... Yeah, it is something I have definitely grown a lot on. In part, you're influenced. And that's kind of what we want to get into today because I was one of those people who always saw animation as kind of a kid's thing. And it also just is not my... My brain is not very visual, and so I often prefer things just being straightforward, like people on screen. But I remember talking to you, you got me into shows like Batman The Animated Series, and Clone Wars, and stuff like that. And I think both of those are, and then Avatar The Last Airbender, all of which I think people think of as kids shows. And in some ways, that's true. I think certainly they're all shows that I think most parents would have no problem showing their kids. Some Batman The Animated Series, maybe a little not for the youngest of kids, but mostly they're family-friendly entertainment. But like, you know, I remember you and I've had a lot of great conversations, especially about Avatar, but about all of them, about why is there this sort of thinking that like entertainment that is family-friendly, make it sound like it's, you know, Christian and a conservative. That's not what I mean at all. You know, that is aimed for all audiences. That means it's not serious, so that means it can't be as good. And so we were talking about like, OK, do we want to do an episode on Ryan The Last Dragon? Do we want to do an episode on Luca? Do we want to do one on each? And I think there's a lot of themes that came up between the two of them. But for me, I mean, one of the biggest themes was how these are two of the best movies I've seen this year, I think, maybe the two best I've seen this year. And both of them just have so much to say about the kind of questions we're talking about in ways that I think a lot of people think kids' movies wouldn't. And so that's kind of where I wanted to start today. We're going to talk about each of those movies individually. I will say we'll be spoiling some of the movies, but also if you haven't seen them. But you're not worried about spoilers, we'll kind of fill you in enough on a plot to follow our discussion. But we're going to be talking about them in a more general way, although they are both great. So if you want to hit pause, watch them come back, please go ahead and do so. But Paul, let's just start with the general idea. What do you think of when people talk about like these movies as kids' movies? Yeah, I mean, the first thought is like it feels kind of agist, you know? The idea that like there are certain themes or concepts that are for certain people of a certain age and certain ones that are not for people. Like if something suitable for children, that then it shouldn't be suitable for adults. I mean, I also personally push back on the idea that a lot of things that people think are not suitable for children. I personally, I mean, if I had a child, I'd be like, yeah, just watch whatever. And like, we'll see how you feel about it. And then if you have negative reactions to certain things, we'll like try and help you kind of avoid that to some extent, but like, you know, I mean, I could go off on certain things that I saw at certain ages, but like, I feel like I saw a lot of stuff at a young age and I don't feel like it affected me negatively, if anything, I feel like it affected me positively, similarly, though, or like the opposite of that is I think there's this idea that like, if something doesn't have a lot of like sex and violence in it or cursing or not that I have a problem with things having some of those, but like, if it doesn't have really heavy stakes or isn't always like very serious about it, stakes that like it's for kids. And I'd say one thing is often like the age of the protagonist, sort of, you know, like protagonist will often be aged around the target audience or like a couple years older. And so, you know, if you look at like avatar of the last airbender, the protagonists are pretty young. If you look at a lot of superhero fiction, one of the reasons they added sidekicks I think was so that younger people would have someone that maybe they'd relate to more. You know, there's there's some movies like, let the right one in, which is a Swedish horror film with child protagonists, like, I wouldn't say that's a kid's movie, you know? The professional is one of my favorite movies and possibly Natalie Portman's best performance while she was maybe 10, not something I'd advise like four-year-old watching, yeah, but I think that's a really good way to start it and to talk about it because I do, I have very similar ideas on this. I did a podcast on this, I did an episode on this podcast a while ago, specifically on parenting. I'll say I'm not a parent. I really like the approach that my guest had on that where he talked about that he like he thinks of his three things that the only thing he doesn't want his kids to watch is stuff where like he thinks of my cause nightmares or be upsetting and that kind of a way. I think that that's understandable and it's very much to pin on kids and I'm gonna kind of let the child psychologist talk about that. There's a lot of stuff where it's like, yeah, kids should be like, it's okay to see like, you know, nudity or, you know, sexuality or like low levels of violence or whatever. And then a lot of stuff that is he, as he put it like he would only want his kids to watch critically. Right. Like, you know, he would want to watch and be able to talk to him about like, okay, well, what are the messages this has about like, you know, like, if you watch Fast and Furious and all of the, you know, his daughters are seeing all the girls and bikini is like, let's maybe talk about that, you know, and I don't want to get too much into that, it's a great episode. But I think I've had much more, I'm with you in that same regard of like, I think the stuff that we think of as like a kid shouldn't watch that, especially in the United States when my mother was, I've talked to this before, but you know, she was like, see all the naked bodies you want, but she don't ever want me to watch violence on television, which put her totally in odds with most other mothers. That's all kind of a long tangent to the main point that we're talking about. But you brought it up because I really want, when I wanted to dive into, but I think kind of the main point we're getting here at, that I really like how you described is I like, I love dark and gritty, you know, I loved the dark night and I, and Batman begins because it made those things feel so much more real and intense and, and I think there's a greatness to that. But I think that some, I think our focus on that has absolutely done what you're talking about that there's a sense of like, well, if no one dies, it doesn't mean anything. You know, or if the people aren't cursing or having these kind of hard emotions. And part of why I was so moved by these two movies is that they deal with some very sensitive issues, very difficult issues. There's like people die in very intense ways, like there's, there's a lot going on. And yet they're able, like they do it in ways that are not, you know, no one's I think could have feel, even though, you know, depending on how, however I might feel about other people's opinions and what their kids should or shouldn't watch, these are clearly like family friendly and that kind of a way. Right. They're aimed that way. They're marketed that way. Right. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. I mean, you know, the, the dark night and Batman agains are these like gritty dark movies, but like they're also about a dude who dresses up like a bat and, you know, has like all these wonderful toys, you know, and like, I love Batman. Yeah. But like, um, oh, is that not on the thing? Yeah. Anyway, I like that man t-shirt. But like it, you know, I mean, it's not even just like superhero films. Like any film, it's like, it's adults pretending that there's someone else, like there's something kind of inherently, um, not like super serious about the whole thing in terms of drama. And so I think it's fine, like when we're watching something, like take it seriously, take it however seriously you want. I'm, I'm not criticizing that, but like, then being like, oh, this is serious and this isn't serious. It's like, you know, stories are stories and, you know, themes and visuals don't belong to any one age group. And I do think that, you know, Riah and Luca both are designed to try to be suitable for wide audiences, um, yet they have some themes that I think are what people, you know, some people might kind of want to keep their kids away from those themes in terms of, um, you know, uh, I guess, you know, what you were referring to earlier. Right. Yeah. And just kind of putting the cards on the table for those who haven't seen them. I think Luca especially, Luca is a very sweet movie about, you know, kids and sea monsters and like, you know, it's, it's a very kind of like classic animated show for kids about, you know, learning tolerance and learning to accept and learning to get past fear. It's also an incredibly clear allegory for the process for about like coming out as being young and queer, you know, and, and to me, it's so great for that because of the way it can, yeah, like you can be six years old and watch it and have no understanding of that allegory and that's fine. Yeah. But I know lots of parents who've talked about, you know, either a, they already have, or they're planning to in a couple of years, like when they do, when topics of like homosexuality or stuff like that, or especially the idea that like this kid in my school didn't talk about it for a while. Want, you know, using this movie as a way to like, like plant the seeds of understanding like what that whole process is about and what it means to be something that shouldn't be judged with other people around you might be judged. Yeah. And I think that's like a really important lesson that you can learn when you're six and then carry it forward when it becomes more specifically relevant, you know, or when it may become more specifically relevant. You know, and I think one of the biggest ideas of this podcast has always been that the media we love is the stuff that makes us ask questions, you know, not just about like, oh yeah, why did Tony Stark do that? But like, what is Tony Stark doing that? What can I tell us about our own world? You know, and I think kids, kids movies, quote unquote, like can there is certainly the whole like ABC school after special ABC after school special that's hitting you over the head with a point so hard that it's just awful entertainment. I think these two movies as well as stuff like Avatar and Batman, the animated series, what they do so well is to, you know, make people of all ages want to ask these questions. And like, I, I, I actually did a lot of digging on this and with both of them, there's so many tweets and posts and things like that and TikToks about parents saying like the great questions their kids asked, you know, as well as adults asking them. And so yeah, to me, that's just like it's, it's, we have some critiques about these movies. It's not just going to be a total shine fast to sure, but I, I think both these movies should remind me why, why this kind of thing is so important and why like it can be a kids movie that does these things. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's like you can just reach more people if you're creating media that people are going to be receptive to, you know, and of course, there's ways you can go deeper on different issues through, through other media. But yeah, I do think that both of these created a, it's like, you know, with reference to after school specials, to me, it's like, if you're not telling a good story, then having a powerful allegory or some moral to the story, it's not going to reach people because people aren't going to like your story and aren't going to connect with it. When you tell a story, that's a great story and you tell it artfully, people are going to connect with that, it's going to resonate with people and then your message is going to get through. And if you're just like message, message, message, and like trying to hit people over the head with it, I don't think it's going to be as effective as if you like effortlessly weave it through. And I'm making a lot of hand gestures here. So you should, you should come on Twitch next time we, if you're listening to the podcast. Come check this out for sure. One other thing I think that can be a really important part of like, because I, I mean, as they turn like, instead of kids movies, like family friendly or like all, you know, all ages friendly. Because I do think there is entertainment that I wouldn't describe as kids movies. I describe it as juvenile, you know, and, and maybe this is like, there's a lot of stuff that like people of all ages love and I'm glad you do, like, to me, like the trolls movie is what I would describe as more juvenile, not all ages friendly, but then I'd call half of Adam Sandler's movies juvenile, so like, I mean, that can apply to anything, you know. One of my favorite things also that I think that can be really brilliant when these kind of movies do or TV shows do, and I didn't see this as much with these two, but like one of my favorite examples of all, this is The Muppet Show, because what I'm talking about here is where you can have humor on a lot of different levels. Right. As an eight-year-old, I loved The Muppet Show because like, you know, things were blowing up and Fazzy was getting things thrown at him and there was a frog and a pig, it was just fun. Yeah. And I remember being surprised at how much my parents loved it. And then I go back and watch it as an adult and I'm like, oh, that's a parody of Howard Cosell. Oh, that's like biting satire or something going on. Right. I mean, there's so much layers there, but what Jim Henson and The Rump were so good at was like putting that away that like kids weren't sitting there going like, wait, what's this about? Right. To me, that's a different kind of example, but one where like you can have, you can have humor that's aimed at all different levels in the same show. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And you know, the same way you can have some heavy things and some light things in the same show or the same movie. I also, I love The Muppets as a kid. I never really re-watched it, so I didn't have that experience you had. I watched it with my parents who I believe also enjoyed it, but you know, it, I do think things having, having kind of multiple levels, you know, I think one of these had like a number of like fart jokes in them that I was like, okay, you know, like, and I'm like, you know, I can do without that. But like at the same time, it's like, whatever, that's, it's a passing thing. Yeah. Um, it can hit on multiple levels. Okay. Okay. Okay. So just because I know it's one of your favorites, we're going to dive into these two specifically, but talk for me about why for you Avatar, the Last Airbender is such a good example of like the kind of thing we're talking about. Okay. Um, actually, if you want to start talking about Raya, my first like eight points or how it reminds me of Avatar, the Last Airbender. That's fine. So I'll use that as a, as a bit of a transition, um, which, I mean, I absolutely loved Raya. I think it's my favorite Disney movie that I've ever seen. Part of it is like it doesn't have the songs and I know the songs are the attraction for some people. They're not for me. So, you know, um, but it also like, I mean, I know like she kind of looks like Korra at times in terms of like her outfit and stuff and age and then, you know, gender. Um, but the, the overall show just feels very airbender to me. Like things I loved about airbender that then also were present in, um, Raya is, you know, the main character has an animal companion who they're legitimately close with and has a personality that like I, as a viewer care about, not just because I'm like, oh, they're cute, but it's like they're a person, you know, um, who then also is involved in the shenanigans, you know? So I really enjoy that in, in both, um, uh, oh, that one's actually more about how it's better than the last airbender, um, but similar to, to, um, to the last airbender, um, both of them are, they're not a direct representation of a culture. They're both like fantasy settings that draw inspiration from many related cultures. Like, um, the last airbender is, I'd say more, most heavily kind of Chinese influence, but there's also, uh, Japanese and, and Korean and other, and probably, I imagine, Southeast Asian and, and, uh, East Asian influences, um, and that, at the time, like I think that was very uncommon in TV shows, you know, and for the first series, especially, I think they were very diligent about like they had a, um, somebody who was consulting on it who also did all the calligraphy, which is beautiful and is like, era appropriate, like there's different eras and different types of styles of calligraphy, um, and, you know, it, and then Raya is more like Southeast Asian cultures, but it's, it's a fantasy setting, right? So yeah, it's not like this is supposed to be historically accurate and I think, I think that can be, that can be powerful sort of in terms of inclusion, in terms of exposing more people to more cultures, um, and also just like, I don't know, like, this is kind of maybe a long tangent, which I won't go on a long tangent, but just like, I've always had sort of an affinity for a lot of aspects of Asian culture, um, which isn't, which to me is different from like fetishizing, um, just in terms of, like, I haven't worn my shoes in the house for decades, like just because I'm like, oh yeah, that just makes sense to me, you know, um, and so, so in terms of like resonating with me, that kind of has an effect, um, also the martial arts are awesome, um, yeah, I'm looking forward to listening to the animation deliberation podcast with Jason St. Clair and Zuhar Ali and, um, his martial arts instructor, I think teaches Filipino martial arts, um, they're gonna do an episode on, on Raya the last dragon with the martial arts instructor talking about a lot of the influences, um, and, you know, Avatar the Last Airbender had, like, real, they had a real martial artist, like, talking about, like, how, you know, all of the bending styles were based on actual martial arts, right, and actual movements, and so it felt, it felt very real, and, um, you know, the animation's also just beautiful, um, and there's, like, there's this mix, this very rare mix of humor, like, lightheartedness and, and weight, like, the gravity of the situation, right, in Avatar the Last Airbender, like, the title character is literally the last airbender because the rest of the airbender's got genocided, like, that's some heavy shit, right, like, and at the same time, he, like, he goes through that and feels that and you feel that and that pain, um, and, you know, suffering throughout the world because it's not just them who got genocided, but then there's also, you know, that the Fire Nation is at war with all the others, but there's also this weight and that character maintains that weight as well. Here, I think Raya doesn't kind of have that weight, I think more when she finds the Last Dragon, spoilers, um, there's Aquafina kind of brings that sort of uplifting, uh, sort of, like, lightness, but the, the movie carries that. I think it has a spirit of, like, levity as well as gravity and I, I just think that's a very, um, rare combination and, and I just loved it. Yeah, it is fun. I, I really like the movie too. I, I had one kind of complaint, uh, and it's about one of the ethical questions we'll get into, but for the most part, I really like the movie, um, and it reminded me in some way, like, and it's kind of a similar topic we'll get into with both of these movies that tropes are not always bad things, especially, like, I, I maybe even want to find a better word than trope, like, because what I'm talking about is the idea of like the Disney Princess movie. Right. Like, a Disney Princess movie is by now a fairly set formula, which, and like, it's funny you're talking about it, like, one of the defining aspects of a Disney Princess movie is the animal companion who doesn't necessarily speak English, but our heroine talks to and does most of her, like, exposition at, and clearly communicates back and forth. I mean, sometimes it does, like, um, oh, why can't I remember the name of a little dragon in a, uh, Mulan? Uh, you know, sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Uh, but, you know, but that's not, that's a very common part of it. To me, like, the songs are common part. The martial arts scene's not so much, uh, but, you know, they can, but what I think Disney has started doing a lot more of recently saying anyone can be a Disney princess. And so let's take a Disney princess story and set it in New Orleans black cuisine culture or in, you know, China or in here, you know, the fantasy world of, of the folklore of Vietnam and Southeast Asia. And I'm not Vietnamese. I'm not Southeast Asian. Um, to me, it was a fascinating rendition of that kind of stuff. Understanding as I've heard a lot of people very positive about it. Some people being kind of critical about it, that they didn't do things as, as well as they could have. I, I can't comment on that. But certainly it exposed me to a lot of these things that I, I might not have known as much about, made me want to curious and want to know more. And I think there's something great about saying, let's just take a basic story that you've heard a hundred times because riot is many things. It is not a surprising movie. Like very quickly from the beginning of the movie, you know, everything that's going to happen. But it never felt boring because it felt like, you know, it was like saying like, okay, you know, west side story doesn't surprise you at all because it is Romeo and Juliet. You've seen that story a thousand times. But it's saying, let's take Romeo and Juliet and set it in 1950s, you know, gang New York. And to me, that's what this was doing. It's saying like, okay, you know, the story of a Disney princess, but let's take it in this totally different setting and see how that changes the story and how it affects it. And that alone, I just think it's fantastic. Yeah, I mean, uh, to your point about criticisms of the cultural representation, again, I don't, I can't comment too deeply on that. I do think a Disney movie is not going to be the best representation of any given culture. Yeah. And here again, it is, I think, trying to convey influences from a variety of cultures rather than from one culture. And then also, it's like, you know, you can talk about like, well, but if it's for profit by this big western company Disney, okay, there's, there's a whole thing there, granted. I do think that things like the fact that these dragons are more creatures of the water, which is traditionally more accurate from my understanding in terms of like Asian dragons as opposed to western dragons. I appreciate that. I think, you know, the fact that it's voiced almost entirely by actors of Asian descent, that's something that the last airbender could have done a lot better, right? Yeah, they really had a couple throughout, you know, that was 15 years ago. And it's like 15 years later, it's like do better. It's like, okay, you're doing better. Yeah, you know, I know there's some people who felt like the fact that at least half or maybe more than half were like East Asian rather than Southeast Asian, you know, there's there's a whole thing there personally. Like, I feel like getting too granular in terms of certain types of representation when you're like drawing from multiple groups of people who have been, you know, oppressed or had less opportunity. I kind of liked the fact that a show like Warrior, very much not a kids show, you know, does in terms of most of the characters are Chinese, but they aren't only casting like, you know, Chinese American or Chinese Canadian. But again, that's like, that's the sort of thing that like, whatever your opinion is like, you know, I respect that like your feelings are your feelings. And I'm not going to say something is right or isn't. I do think Kelly Marie Tran and Gemma Chan both were great. They play kind of the two principal, you know, protagonists and the antagonist. Their dynamic is particularly impressive given that they weren't even recording together. Yeah, everything was being done during pandemic times. Exactly. And yeah, like the first thing you said, again, I don't think we can get into it much. I don't really feel like I can even go as far as what you're saying in terms of saying like that, that I have kind of a preference one or the other because I just think I'm not, I'm not up one of those cultures. And so I just don't really have an opinion there. But I think it's like, yeah, you're right. It's like, for, you know, these tropes are things we're constantly getting better at or constantly learning. This may not have been perfect yet. It's certainly much better than when Avatar The Last Airbender did, which is both of them much better than the Avatar movie, which just cast right actors as the bad guys. Well, here's, here's the thing, like the Avatar movie actually hired more people of Asian descent than the series. Did that not mean roles, but like, yeah, it did. Like tons of extras and a lot of, a lot of characters, whereas there were like, basically like two main characters in the original voice. But you know, so, so I feel like it's more like a criticism of the series that like, we have to see the movie and be like, hey, you should have done better. Yeah, I'm not sticking up for the movie. Yeah, let's not get into it. There's also a whole bunch of thing about like what races or what color and stuff. In terms of the good guys bad guys. There's a lot there. There's a lot there. But the other thing I was going to say is also in the same way, like, you know, this, this version of the Disney Princess trope is also kind of unrecognizable because she's not sitting around sighing, waiting for a Prince rescue. Right. So, you know, like the Disney Princess trope is also one that has had a lot of problems and still isn't perfect. And, um, but, you know, I mean, one thing that I've loved is seeing like all these stories from parents who talking about like, not just their daughters, like their sons, being like, yeah, Raya's awesome. I want to be Raya for Halloween, you know, and like, that's great and have like young boys. Same thing that happened with Frozen and stuff like that. So let's get into some of the actual issues that that, uh, Raya brings up and then we'll get to Luca in a bit. Um, the first thing I, uh, and I'll give kind of, can you, you want to give like a 60 second plot summary? Okay. Um, I gave you no preparation time. Yeah. Yeah. 60 second plot summary. No problem. Basically, there's some, um, dark spirits or whatever that feed on, you know, distrust in whatever called the drone and they turned people into stone and then the dragons were like, Hey, let's stop them. So they made a big egg or something and it stopped them, but then the dragons were all stone and still tons of people were stone. And then one of the five, um, are they tribes to remember? I think five nations within this one land. Right. So, so they used to all be the one land of Kumbandia, Kumbandra, right? Kumbandra, thank you. Um, so, so they all, um, they basically, um, the, the one king, you know, place heart has the, the gem that's supposed to keep away, you know, the dreun. And then, um, this one, uh, let's see, I want to get her name right. Uh, Namari comes in with her, like basically, uh, let's see, Benja is a tribe chief, right? Yeah. Or king. I think this is not going to work as a summary, 60 seconds. There's just like too much going on. There's a lot going on. Basically, uh, the gem gets shattered. It's kind of Riah's fault, but kind of not. And then she goes to collect all the rest of them. She wakes up the last dragon and, uh, they keep just like adding members to the gang, which is also very avatar of the last airbender where they're kind of just collecting people over time and people from each, like, you know, from the fire nation and the water nation. Wait, no, that's not it. But, and brings them all together. And then everybody looks happily ever after. Maybe. Yeah. And there's a couple of, like one, to me, one of the, uh, one of the key moments along the way is that like, all this has happened because people don't trust each other because some people have resources. Others don't. And, and, and that during this time of them all not knowing each other, all of these ideas spring up about all of those people are this and all these people are that. And that there comes to be a moment when once again, like they have to work together, but they don't trust each other and in kind of like the, you know, again, the sort of like the, there always has to be a moment where our, our hero does the right thing that shows their growth, that fixes everything. And it's Raya trusting this person who's betrayed her before and saying, like, look, I'll put my knife down first so that we can work together and that kind of thing. And, and it's a very nice story, although I, that one part especially asking some questions about that we'll get into. Um, but to me, I think one of the first things I wanted to get into about the movie was it feels like one of the real themes is about the difference between the stories you, what happens when the stories you've been told don't match with the reality that you experience. Because, and it's everything from like, you know, Raya has always learned about the dragons as these mythical creatures of wonder wisdom and, you know, majesty. And it's played by Aquafina. And Aquafina doing Aquafina things, you know, which is being like silly and cookie and ridiculous and having fun and being smart and powerful and wise in some way, but actually in a very avatar like way of being like, you know, a 10 year old kid with a lot of wisdom. Yeah. Yeah. Very angish actually. Yeah. And so she definitely has a moment of like, oh, I think she literally says, like, you're not like the stories I heard. Right. And then that seems to be a themes throughout, because as you mentioned along the way, they pick up all these, uh, you know, people who become part of the gang, all of whom start out as it seems antagonists, you know, and in each one, it's someone who one side or the other doesn't trust each other for fair, maybe for good reason, maybe for not. But that like, again, and again, they find a way to find common ground and to realize like, you're not the person that I was told you would be right. Yeah, I agree. Um, it, it does feel like the central theme is sort of, you know, about kind of like not believing the propaganda or that stories. I mean, it's very like anti xenophobia, right? It's like, you have all these groups that are all very similar, but different, but similar. And they're all just people. And if they work together, they can have a better society than if they're at odds with one another. And being at odds with one another has gotten them into quite a predicament. And, um, yeah, and, but the, you know, at the same time, it's like there was an actual betrayal multiple times. So sometimes, you know, sometimes there is reason not to trust someone when they've, I guess what it is is like, and, and I can see kind of your issue with the, with the story here, where, um, you know, I, I favor trusting people until somebody basically gives a reason not to. Right. And so when somebody repeatedly gives a reason not to, I think then often it's safer to be like, well, okay, you give me a reason not to trust you. So I'm not going to keep trusting you because you've undermined that trust. And so maybe that undermines a little bit of the message of the movie. Um, yeah. And that was, um, that was kind of the main thing I was going to bring up there. And Jennifer explained it, but basically like as, uh, the main antagonist who remind me what that character's name was. I think it's the Mari. Yeah. Yeah. And the Mari. She plays, uh, she's kind of like in a similar position to Raya. She's the daughter of the leader of one of these other, uh, like groups or nations or lands. Um, and she kind of befriends Raya early in the movie, but then it turns out that she's doing this to steal the gem. And then that's where all the fighting happens. And, um, and then first the movie, they're very much antagonists, although very much in a, and like, another thing that I'll kind of touch on in a bit, there's very much in enemies to friends to, you know, there's some coding happening. There's very much not baiting. There's a chemistry intention between the characters that is not about the antagonism. Yeah. Or, or, you know, I mean, antagonism, the, the enemies to lovers is a popular story. Although again, Disney movies, not the lovers part, uh, and we'll get to that in a second. But like, I feel, and here is where it's not a critique of kids movies necessarily, but it is where I feel like the younger, I sometimes wish people who made movies like this would trust the audiences a little bit more, because I feel like the central tension here is that, yeah, I would finish the story. So we get to a point where the two of them have to trust each other. And Raya does start to trust her, but then she betrays, she like pulls out a knife or she pulls out a crossbow and like it's his whole thing. And I feel like the movie got to this problem where what it showed versus what it was telling us did not match up because it was trying to tell us that actually this time it was Raya who didn't trust enough. And so she had to learn that kind of like they're both at fault and she has to be the one to do the thing. But I think sometimes because there's like, because you still want to have the good guy seem like the good, the hero seem like the hero and everyone else not seem like the hero, they've, it felt like they didn't want to show Raya in a bad light in any way. Sort of wound up seeming kind of confused. And as one person put it, who I was talking to said, you know, this should be a great movie about learn to trust people, you know, that learn to get past your fears of them and understand they could have changed. You could see it as no matter how many times people hit you, you should trust them that they want to hit you the next time, which is a very bad message. And that's not a good lesson. That's not a good lesson. I don't think that's a lesson. And the movie like book lampshades that that's not the lesson it's giving. But I did wish that they kind of trusted the audience a little bit more and allowed Raya to appear in a little bit more or even her fault. Because the other one of the reading I think of this could be that like her father's kingdom or rulership, whatever it is, is doing a lot better than the others. And maybe that there is some justification to why they want to share the gems that they're all having. And I feel like just the movie wasn't quite willing to go into like maybe Raya and or her father were not like always in the right there. Right. Yeah, I mean, he was very clearly trying to be inclusive and inviting people in and then got betrayed. So he kind of just looks like a sucker. Whereas, you know, if they had actually been benefiting by being the ones who had the gem, then that does add a layer to the story, I think that would be interesting. And maybe they were and I'm just we don't know because that story didn't tell us that, but they were doing well and they did have the gem. So like correlation does not, you know, imply causation, but like sometimes it does go together, right? I do think that like that Raya could have just like given over the other pieces of the thing and been like, here, you put it together, you know, and I do think also that Namari wanted to cooperate and work together. But her mom was like, no, we're not going to do it that way. And so I feel like there was a I didn't like that part. Like I feel like that could have been written a little differently. And if it hadn't ended the way it did, I would hate that part. Like that's like, yeah, you know, that's like, that could have like basically ruined it for me. It was a spot where it felt like they because like at that point in the movie, I kind of trusted them to sort of get through to where I wanted them to end up. Right. Because of that, I was able to enjoy the movie, but I was for a moment like, you better don't, you know, don't do me this way. Yeah. So I was relieved kind of by the ends rather than, um, yeah. And I mean, you know, like your average movie, I have five of those. No, don't do me like this moment. And it's when I only had one or two. So like that moment makes it, you know, it's kind of like, you know, I think that part could have been done better. And I do think that that part, a part of that was like people's understanding of what they have to do to make it all ages friendly. And I kind of wish that they didn't. Because like, that mainly I mean, it's serious to me, which granted, I mean, this is a movie that like five adults can really enjoy. Sure. That anime series is maybe like, eight and up for some. Sure. Although again, how others see it. So it got into a lot more kind of complex topics. But I do think that they could have trusted the audience a little bit more with that scene. But other than that, I do really love the lesson it had of like that, that when you have the cycle of mistrust and like, trying to figure out, well, wait, but did you do it first? Or did I do it first? Or just someone has just got to say, I trust you that, or I'm going to give you a chance at that. Yeah, exactly. I'm going to give you a chance to not be horrible. And here's the thing, like, don't screw me on this, you know? Yeah. And there's a certain like, you know, like, you know, I forget the actual saying, I'm going to make one up, but like, you know, like, you know, trust them and keep your pad or dry, like, you know, be ready if they're going to betray you. But yeah, but that the putting the weapon down first really, really mattered. Let's just quickly talk about the last part that we kind of alluded to because the great segue into Luca on this podcast, other times, especially during LGBT Pride Month, just a few weeks ago, I talked a lot about the importance of representation and the differences between queer coding versus queer baiting versus explicit content. This movie, I think, is another great example of a way to do that well, because there's nothing explicit about the sexuality of either the characters. You know, they have a lot, they develop a chemistry, to be sure. You know, when I watched the movie the first time, like, and the first time, uh, Numeria comes on, not Numeria, so bad with names. Is that again? Numeri? Numeri, you know, she has like a shaved head, she has like a buzz cut on one side. And, and, uh, my partner was like, oh, okay, she's the queer girl on the show. And like, there's nothing at all explicit about that, but I, uh, but there also isn't what a lot of times movies will do or TV shows will do, is like kind of throw in a male love interest for one of them, just to be like, no, I don't know what you're seeing there. Right, right, right. There's none of that. And, uh, Kelly Marie Tran, the actress who plays Raya, has said that she, in her understanding, the characters were definitely flirting and that she acted the part as though they were flirting. Right. And for a Disney movie, I mean, that to me is fantastic in terms of representation of like, they're willing to allow the coding be out there. They didn't hit you over the head. It wasn't, you know, a kiss on screen, a Disney movie between two same-sex characters, which I'd like to get one day, but there's two same gender characters. I'm not expecting that anytime soon, but just to have that level of coding and acceptance without any of the, no, no, no, no, that's definitely not that. I, I thought was really, really powerful. Yeah, I mean, I, the first time that even as kids, they interact, I was kind of like, like it felt like there was some dynamic there that didn't feel exactly like just like their kids. So maybe there's no sexuality to it, but it felt like, and that kind of like puppy love, like the kind of thing where like a person later looks back on, I was like, Oh yeah, my feelings for that friend. No wonder I'm gay. Like, yeah, you know, the kind of puppy love feelings you get when you're 10 or 11. Yeah. So, so that, you know, I felt like that was conveyed there. And then later on, it felt more sort of not explicit, I guess, because it was implicit, but more obvious, more like their older, you know, and then they're also fighting. So there's this whole like physicality to it as well. And, and hearing that Kelly Murray Tran like put that into the role deliberately. And I think talked with them and they kind of played around that some, you know, it feels like progress, right? Like, and a lot of these things, it is like, progress is slow sometimes. And, you know, I do think there's, there's a lot of things that I would, I would like to see in movies that just, we don't get to see in the big budget movies, right? We don't get to see in, you know, Disney Plus shows, but we maybe get to see them in Netflix shows. And like, you know, it's just progress. Or we get them in Disney Plus, but not on the big screen, you know, right, right? Yeah, exactly. And so I think, you know, I did find that to be a powerful aspect of the story, just in terms of it felt very obvious. And like, they weren't taking and they weren't going to lengths to try and cover it up. At the same time, I feel like, if that was like really high on the list of types of representation that I was like personally aggrieved by a lack of, I'd still be kind of like, calm, you know? Yeah. Like, can't, can't you just do the thing? Just do the thing. Yeah, I mean, we definitely need a Disney Princess movie who gets rescued by another princess. Like that, that has to happen at some point. You know, Shira showed you can do it and like, you could have romance that isn't sexualized in any way that like, you know, six year olds can watch and enjoy and there's nothing like, you know, remotely sexual about it. It's just, you know, like if Cinderella can kiss a boy, then, you know, another princess can kiss a girl, you know, or any gender or whatever. Exactly. And like maybe in 10 or 20 years, I don't know. Yeah. Like you said, I think it's a progress thing. Yeah. You know, and I just, it, I was just really, really happy to see that. So, and so let's now get into Luca. Okay, yeah. Because we said, Luca is a story that, here this time, I'll try to kind of get the brief summary of it. 60 seconds on the clock. Good luck. And here again, like, like a lot of these stories, it is set, you know, it's not a very, well, it kind of is a fantasy story. There's the sea monsters. But it's set in again, a very specific time and place. And it's supposed to be like, my understanding is that it references some of the legends that were kind of like talked about at time. It's basically like 1950s, 1960s, Italy, you know, think of like the talented Mr. Ripley, you know, that kind of setting. It's, it's very much that it's young men on Vespas discovering themselves and things like that, which by the way, is a film genre laced with incredible amounts of like contextual, like homoroticism, which I don't think is coincidental in the slightest. But so in this movie, we open with a bunch of like what I would have called merpeople, you know, kind of anthropomorphic with tales, but they refer to as sea monsters in this. And they're living their lives and dealing with like the people up on the shore. You know, you have a little mermaid type character, but he's a boy who dreams about life up on the shore. And he discovers that if he goes up on shore, he turns into an actual person into into a human. Yeah, okay, sorry. Yeah. Person I mean as human, like see monster to me also is a very personified thing. But yes, no, he they are both sentient beings and all that he is a human being now. Yeah, he's got no good catch. And I think it was one he's supposed to be like 1112. Like in the film, let's say, I'm like, prepubescent, like not thinking in those terms, but wanting to kind of like have adventures and run away from home. And he meets another sea monster who's also a young boy on the land, who's basically like, look, we can like, you know, be Peter Pan, we can run away from home, we can go have all these crazy adventures. And they get into this, you know, grand story. And again, it's a story you've seen a hundred times before where they want to get money so they can buy a Vespa because the Vespa is a symbol of freedom. And they figure out that the way to win a Vespa is to compete in this great race this is where actually my partner described the is a cross between little mermaid and a sports anime is a whole like sub-genre man. To clarify, it's a triathlon of bike riding, swimming, and pasta eating. I'm gonna have pasta for dinner. Yeah, so good. And like, you know, of course, they meet a local girl who wants to help them and they have antagonism with her and then they all become part of the team. And there's antagonism with the family and the family helps them. And all the while, the main antagonist is a 16 year old boy who's basically Gaston from Beauty and the Beast of the movie, you know, very full of himself, very much a bully who you're not surprised at all will will get found, you know, by the end everyone will be like, oh, you're not actually that great. We're gonna throw you in the in the in the fountain. And there's stories about family acceptance and things like that. And his family, our hero, Luca, the sea monsters, they come on shore because they're very worried about him, you know, trying to get him back. And all the time, there is the story happening in the town of like people have seen these sea monsters in the water off shore and everyone's afraid of them and everyone's concerned about them and everyone wants to go hunting them. And so our heroes are very, very afraid of being exposed. And like, if any part of them ever is hit by water, that part of them will switch, right? You ronma one half to throw in one more reference, but this is pulling from. And so and this is where it really becomes kind of the coming out story because it's, you know, so much about like, do I tell people who I really am versus do I hide that? Do I challenge their fears or do I hide it? And and you get this very poignant, very difficult movie where Luca's friend is exposed for who he is. And Luca basically throws him under the bus and says like, Oh, no, he's a sea monster, not me, which both if you've watched like, you know, queer coming out teen stories or just talk to like teenagers who went through that is a thing that happens both in the in the stories and in real life a lot where people like their partner gets caught and like to not get in trouble. They kind of like, Oh, no, that wasn't me kind of a thing. And that's been done very well and very badly in some stories. But of course, second, how did you feel about it in this one in terms of, well, let me show you the summary. I'm going to long apologies. So, so then the race happens. And of course, the rain, the race happens during the rain and, you know, shenanigans and soon we try to stay hidden, but in the end, Luca has this moment of like, the only way to win the race as well as to help his friends is to expose himself. He does do that. And they win the race and the parent figure, the parent of the girl who has really got to know these two young boys, like the whole town is like not sure what to do. Like, did they win the right? You know, are they sea monsters? Are they human? What are they? And in kind of like the, you know, totally unsurprising, but still makes me feel like someone was chopping onions at a real moment. You know, they say like, are they sea monsters or are they people? And he says, they're the winners of the race. And it's just this wonderful moment of exposing every, you know, and then two little old ladies who are in the town, they kind of let themselves be exposed. It's their sea monsters too. And it's just this wonderful, wonderful story that nothing about it will surprise you, but everything about it is charming and and just a really powerful story on a lot of levels. So what, what did you like about it? Uh, let's see. I got a list. Uh, always a list. I did feel like it was a charming story, you know, that it, um, it just, it, it didn't feel like it was trying to do too much. It felt like it was trying to do maybe two things at once. And I felt like it did those both really well, which was just tell a simple story, but also have that story be an allegory, you know, for coming out. And again, like, I love the scenery. Um, it, for a lot of the movie, the stakes were just like about a kid doing something his parents didn't want him to, you know, just like going up on the surface and not even going into the town at first, you know, and it's like, they were just hanging out and I could just spend a lot of time on the Italian coastline, you know, it's really both this and Raya. It's very different animation styles, but both are just incredibly, uh, my partner and I watched this only like a couple of days after we booked our tickets to Italy for our honeymoon and we were just like, Oh, yeah, this is the right thing. Yeah, for sure, for sure. It's like, uh, I mean, granted, we're not going to 1950s. You can't go there. You can't go there. But, uh, yeah, but it's just, it's, it's visually just stunning. Um, it works great as an allegory, which I really appreciated like through the movie kind of gradually being like, okay, I see where you're going with this, you know, and, and it felt very powerful, but it didn't feel contrived to me. I wouldn't ask you about that because I was told that it is an allegory before I watched it, so I knew to kind of look for that. I was kind of curious, like, what was that like for you about like discovering that? Um, I really enjoyed that. You know, I knew nothing about the movie. I saw the picture on Disney Plus and I just like, yeah, and we just started watching it. I knew it was from Pixar. That's it. Um, and a lot of Pixar's recent stuff. I haven't enjoyed quite as much, you know, I've got a lot of thoughts on some of them. But like, um, it felt kind of, I really just enjoyed that the story was very simple, basically. Um, but kind of discovering that like this, I was like, Oh, okay. Yeah. Like, you know, and I didn't feel like a vibe between the two boys, the way I felt between the two girls and Raya, you know, and I think that could be interpreted that way. I'm certainly not going to tell anyone not to. They are younger. Um, like, they're not really teenagers, I think. Yeah, I think they're like 11, 12. They're definitely prepubescent. Exactly. That's how it feels to me. Um, and then there was the whole thing where then, um, um, Lucas hanging out more with, um, I don't want to just grab her name, um, uh, with Julia. And it's sort of like, Oh, now we're spending time with the girl more. And it, I mean, it's also kind of interesting that it's like, in a way, it's like, he wants to do both things, you know, right. And then maybe that's a whole nother, you know, thing that is also underrepresented in fiction, like Barry underrepresented, right? But, um, it, it just, I didn't feel like it was hitting me over the head with the allegory. I just felt like it felt like an appropriate secondary meaning that I could get from it, but I could also just watch the story and enjoy it as it was just literally the story itself. Um, yeah. And, you know, I mean, I think it also functions as more than just like coming out as gay, right? I mean, it does that very clearly, but at the same time, just like coming out as anything as yourself, as, you know, maybe being someone that, that people, that people look at as different somehow and just being like, you know, you, you can be accepted. Like there are people who will love you, you know, and like find those people. And, and hopefully those are also people who will stick up for you and help kind of like, you know, the, the dad, I loved the dad character. Like he kind of, he like socially pressures everybody else into being like, all right, well, we weren't really committed to hitting these sea monsters, you know, like, it's kind of like this big imposing dude. And, um, you know, and in terms of representation also, like he has one arm and yes, he's, you know, which, of course, you know, representation for, you know, people with different limb counts, right? So, quote comes convenience. Um, but he also says, when, when asked, he says he was born that way, which, right, you know, which I think is very, at first it's like, oh, did, was it like a sea monster? Like, is there gonna be some horrible, like, yeah, I was so worried it was gonna be that, but no, it's like, that's how we always spin now. Exactly. And it's just like, yeah. And I thought that was a beautiful, just addition in terms of like, people are different. And that's not just fine. It's great. And like, people should be appreciated for who we are, right? And, um, and so, to me, it sort of broadens kind of the circle in a way in terms of, you know, just the representation within. Um, and there, there were one of my notes is there were so many places I felt like the story could go and I wouldn't have liked it. That was one of them. But it really did. You know, and the moment when, um, Luca, um, you know, points at Alberto and his like, sea monster, like, I was like, ah, like, it hurt, you know, and then I was like, like, that happens, right? Like, people do that. And, um, and then the fact that Alberto was the one who came back and was like, hey, I'm going to risk my life to come here and bring you an umbrella so you can continue. Like, it made, um, Luca's decision had so much agency. Yeah, that I really appreciated that. And it was, it was moving in terms of like, Alberto being supportive of him, even though he wasn't supportive of him, like, right. And, and not that you always have to be supportive of people who aren't supportive of you. But like, sometimes, sometimes somebody's, there are some people who are going to do, like, a bad thing once. And then they're going to learn from it and do better. And maybe there's some people who aren't, right? And here it's like, he was giving him another chance. And then he took and he was like, no, I don't need the umbrella. Like, I'm, I'll, I'll be like, I'm who I am, you know, um, just like, but especially because I think one of the things that they develop well in the story is that Luca and Alberto are not the same thing. In part, because Luca has a lot more to lose in a way that like, not in like a way that like, we should be more worried about Luca, but more that like, Luca's a lot more, like Alberto, Alberto. Alberto. Alberto. Yeah, where I'm saying Alberto, um, who lives in Vancouver. Like, you know, his father abandoned him a long time ago. He has nothing. And like, he's not pitied, but definitely like, it makes Luca realize like that he has part of why Alberto can take those risks and can and be like, yes, this is who I am, is because he's not holding on to the things that he's so afraid of losing what Luca is. And, and yeah, it was a moment that hit very hard, but it was, and here again, like I'm not, I don't, I think I liked Luca a little bit more, but not for this reason. It's just more of a story that resonated with me. But in this one regard, I think it did what I just said, Ryan didn't. It trusted its audience by making its hero, its protagonist to be the bad guy in that moment. Like what he did was clearly a terrible thing to do. But as you said, like, it happens in real life all the time and it's understandable. And, um, you know, I, like, I, in the counseling work I used to do in the church, I could do a lot of work with people who were talking about like, you know, their queer experiences and like how the church rejected them in the past and stuff like this. And many of them told stories about having like, you know, their partner throw them under the bus like this. Many then told stories about how they were the one who did that to their partner, you know, and they clearly they were like, I was very guilty. And then, and part of it's like, you were 14. Like, you know, it was a great thing you did, but it's understandable. Not good, but understandable. Like that's yeah. And I felt like they did such a nice job of showing that of like not letting Luca off the hook and not forgiving him, but also not making him like a horrible character who now has to be like, now Alberto is the star and Luca has to be like, it was, he made a mistake. He heard his friend. His friend gave him a lot more grace than he maybe deserved, but he then took that grace and was like, yeah, I should do the right thing. And to me, it really hit kind of the same themes as Ryan did. We're talking about like what you said the father of like, challenging the feet, you know, like it was again, like, here's the story we've heard. See, monsters are scary. Here's the reality. They eat a lot of pasta and are good at races. Like, they're fun, you know. And that moment, and then especially that moment of the two women sort of like taking off the umbrellas that they could be seen as what they were, it just felt like such a sweet moment of everyone realizing like the facade that they all had of, you know, we don't have to lie. We don't have to pretend. We don't have that lies even too strong a word. We don't, we can trust each other, you know, we can see that we can be accepted and then more people can come out and then more people can be like, Oh, well, you too, you know, like, it just, it becomes this wonderful, like snowball effect. Yeah, yeah, I thought that little detail at the end with the two like older ladies like coming out and being like, Oh, yeah, we're from the sea too. I thought was was like one of the most powerful, just little details in the movie. And shows how, you know, I mean, one person's active bravery can inspire another person's active bravery, which can inspire a bunch of other people's acts of bravery. And then it's like, we maybe we just have a better world than for everybody. Yeah. No, I think it's definitely true. Um, any other thoughts you had on a Luca who wanted to get into? Um, no, like, I didn't, I didn't have as many like really specific details, I think for Luca, you know, it, it resonated with me, but not as much like specifically in terms of like, if you were to write a movie and be like, here are the things you're going to love in a movie, like you would write Ryan, you know, and Luca, I was just like, I love this for what it is, even if it's not like the genre that I like usually, yeah, I'm trying to spend my time in, but I really enjoyed spending my time, um, in the movie and in the location and with the characters. Yeah. I think one thing I felt really about both movies, and I just kind of go back to the conversation about kids movies, I never felt condescended to. Yeah. I never felt like the writer was saying, okay, because you're a kid watching this, we're going to kind of spoon-feed you the details, you know, with these, after that one moment in Ryan, like, it felt like both these movies, Luca, especially, but really both of them, you know, we're like, hey, we're going to tell this in a way that like kids are going to enjoy. And yeah, this was the movie with a lot of fart jokes, which, you know, I wrote, I rolled my eyes at, and, and jokes about like, you know, kids really loving eating pasta and stuff like that, you're maybe not going to see in the dark night, if you're really at a place. Um, there's another movie I saw recently that had a very dark and gritty feel, but also some like family romp movie stuff that I did love that we'll be talking about tomorrow. Um, no spoilers. But yeah, I just, and then it's kind of a nice, what I'd kind of wrap up like, and I feel like what I love about both of these stories is that they, they use the genre and both of them, I mean, they're very classic stories, you know, just like Raya, none of the overall plot, there's never a doubt in my mind that they're going to win this race. There's never a doubt in my mind that Alberta and Luca are going to forgive each other and that they're going to team up with the girls, the antagonist. There's never a doubt in my mind that the little kids who follow around the bully all the time, all the movie are eventually going to realize he's just a bully. They don't have to do that. And he's going to get his come up. It's in some way or another. But it was still like, by adding those details, you know, having it be that the confrontation moment is the one of them comes out, the other throws the other under the bus, the two women coming out, the being beautifully, beautifully animated in such wonderful ways. Yeah, I just loved it. I will add a couple of things. One, I did enjoy the bits of Italian throughout, just in terms of language and like recognizing most of it and enjoying that. It's hard to think about the new movie without hearing in my mind, Luca Bratzi sleeps with the fishes. Yes. I didn't even make the fish connection, but I definitely like Luca to me is like Luca Bratzi. But just that being the biggest line aside from like, you know, I hope your first child is a masculine child. But yeah, this is some some godfather references there for for all you. And I think it's interesting that your main issue in Raya is that you feel like they didn't trust the audience enough to make Raya look bad when the whole thing is about trust. So yeah, that's true. But yeah, I just really enjoyed both movies. I highly recommend them. I think, you know, you can see them for the allegorical value, but like, you can also just see them for not only a good story, but just like, just like, watch the screen. I mean, I think the sound is great, but like, just the picture is amazing also. I have this kind of wonderful image in my head of like, super Christian conservative parents showing their kids this movie. And maybe they think Pixar is all demon, you know, Satanists. But like, I think a lot of like, this movie is going to get very, very family-friendly ratings. Yeah. Even with folks who might be like, you know, for races and reasons like not going to see Raya, I think hopefully even like a lot of Christian conservatives are still going to at least go see that. Right. But I love the idea of it being watched with these parents who just are completely oblivious to the coming out allegory. They're just like, this is a fun story, and it has good messages for our kids. And then 10 years later, when a kid in their high school comes out, the parents are, you know, so mad that their own kids aren't more upset about, they're like, but mom, remember, Luca? Like, it's okay. Like, you know, like, I don't think that, by any means is why they wrote it. Maybe that's probably not going to happen too often. But if it just happens at least once, it's going to make me so happy. I mean, I also think that kind of speaks to bring the circle back around. It's like, that speaks to the idea of movies being for audiences where, you know, anyone can enjoy the movies, I think. It doesn't mean everyone will, but anyone can. And it can hit people differently based on whether, you know, what they bring to it, what they're coming to it. And, you know, maybe on another viewing later, later on, years later, might be like, Oh, I missed that, you know, I think there's a lot of people who watch movies and don't read a whole lot of commentary about them or aren't particularly concerned with some of the things that, you know, we talk about. And that doesn't mean that it doesn't kind of filter in, you know, to the, I mean, to some extent, like movies can be propaganda. And that can be good, right? And it can be bad sometimes. But like, you know, getting ideas into heads, like. Six year old me did not have deep thoughts about fascism and empires and rebellions when I watched Luke Skywalker blow up the death star. But certainly, like when 14 year old me started to learn about Jack booted soldiers and fascism and empire, the distaste for those things that had been still in my style or Star Wars was, you know, carried through, like, and those messages can. And that's what kind of the like, that I think that's the flip side of the representation stuff. Like, I want to have two characters of the same gender and a Disney or Pixar movie kiss each other. But a third of the country to have the country will refuse to watch that movie. And so also having this, I think it's, you know, it's in the same way, I will really be happy when we get a Disney movie about a disabled Disney princess, you know, who is in a wheelchair or something like that. But also having a character where like his not having an arm is barely ever mentioned. And you're right, it could have been in a bad way. It's not. But he just is like there as just, yeah, some people don't have an arm, some people don't have a leg for context. Those were new. I don't have one of my legs ever prosthetic. And so it's why it's particularly important to me. It's normalizing it. You know, it's helping people real like, because they're especially kids who saw this movie are gonna like, you know, I've definitely had experiences with people of all ages, especially kids, but really of all ages who are sort of like freaked out when I take my leg off. Like, oh, it's so weird and different. I guarantee you they're gonna be kids who meet their, you know, the first amputee friend in high school. And I'm like, oh, yeah, like, Julia's dad, you know, like it just helps to normalize it. And that's, to me, that's one more way, like the representation matters so much. Yeah, for sure. Like, he exists. And he's a character who matters. And so like, just he exists and is lovable. And, you know, I do think that that that affects sort of just the the kind of unconscious feelings that people have. You know, yeah. And also one of the thing that that kind of reminds me of is that, because here's again, the way that the movie could have been terrible, but wasn't Lucas parents are good people who care about their son, right? Yeah, they're overprotective. And they have a lot of mythology about what the surface is like, and a lot of fear of like, you know, don't play on the other side of the tracks, you'll get in trouble. But, but it is clear, even when they come, they're not sort of like angry that he's learning all these terrible ideas. They're just concerned about him. And when they see him watch the race, they're very proud of him. And they're, they are, they are also able to be like, okay, we were afraid of the surface people, but maybe it's not so scary. And they find a way for everyone to kind of coexist in both worlds. Yeah, for sure. For sure. They, their concerns are valid and understandable. But at the same time, you know, they're, you know, maybe being overprotective. And then when they see the reality of the situation, they they're like, okay, you know, we accept this. And, you know, it, it, it comes to a pleasant conclusion that sort of models like maybe, maybe that's how things can be, you know? Yeah, definitely. And that's, I, I do like gritty stories. I do like stories like, you know, that, that shows that the world isn't always happy and nice and stuff. Like stories with happy endings are also good. You know, like, I want a story that tells me how bad the world can be. And I also want a story that tells me how good the world could be, you know? Yeah, like we can have both. Yeah. So I think it's about where I wrap up. Paul, do you have any other last things or do you want to kind of go into telling people where they can find more of your stuff? Yeah, I just have like one last statement, closing statement, which is basically just that I feel like these movies demonstrate how you can make a piece of fiction with humor and weight and have protagonists of any age. And if you write a great story and execute it well, it can function to entertain people of any age and maybe even do a little bit more than that. So that's, I think it's a great way to put it. And it's the, you know, I like things have a strong message, but I also like things where it's subtle, you know, and where you like it just it. These things have effects, especially in people on young people, but also people of all ages, you know? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Well, I'm so glad you kind of pushed Raya towards me. And it wasn't you but someone else who pushed Luca, but you've definitely helped me get a lot better sense of like, just, you know, why not enjoy, you know, stuff that's for all ages. So I'm really glad we got to have this conversation. Yeah, me too. I'm glad you watched them both. Yeah. And, and, um, good. Oh, I was just, do you want me to say my streaming stuff on Zenbadman on Twitch. And I will say there is one more than you. I think you've watched part of it. I'm working through it and maybe we'll do a thing on it when I finish and you can give that recommendation if you want to. Mitchell's and the Machines is another fantastic one. It addresses a couple of the themes that we've talked about here in some very good ways. I'm not going to spoil for Paul, but, but definitely another, to me, another example of just like fantastic all ages, kid movie, whatever you want to call it with, I mean, like biting, biting satire of our current technological situation, if nothing else, with clear references to a couple of specific individuals who are very clearly being mocked and pilloried. Um, but yeah, speaking of, uh, the evils and wonders of technology, Paul, where can people find your voice on different technological platforms? Yeah, Twitch TV slash Zenbadman. Um, I actually spelled it wrong, but I didn't pronounce it wrong in my notes. And then also on Twitter, Zenbadman. Um, you know, you can, you can chat at me and, uh, you can come out and hang. I generally play poker and, uh, ponder the nature of existence on Twitch. You know, maybe we'll branch out. Yeah, it's a lot of fun. Um, I'm also doing some poker streaming on Twitch here. The, the, my Twitch channel is the ethical panda. Um, work, uh, my, my, my, yeah, Paul, what, what is the schedule I can find you at? Oh, I don't know. I'm re I'm kind of revamping my schedule. I most frequently stream at 10 AM, uh, Pacific time, and at two PM Pacific time. Um, and I'm kind of playing around with different days for a while. I was doing every single day. I might start taking a day or two off like every week or month or so, but yeah, it has some upsides. Yeah. Like I said, I'm doing, I, and what I'm doing is a thing where like I'm playing poker, but I'm also talking about these issues and when Paul might join me, uh, I all mine is under the ethical panda. I generally stream at Tuesdays and thirties days at one o'clock. And then on Sundays, I'm going to try and do this thing fairly regularly of record an episode at eight and then go into my own poker stream at nine 30. So I will be doing that in about 15 minutes or so for those of you watching on Twitch. And Paul and I are talking, Paul has been very much my mentor while I'm learning poker. So often when I, when I'm doing the stuff, Tuesdays and Thursdays, sorry, all my times are central, uh, panda time, uh, at one o'clock, central 11 o'clock Pacific, Paul and I may, we'll, we'll do like a hand review where it's specifically about poker, either on his channel or mine. We're still discussing that, uh, but you know, keep both subscribed to both our channels, follow, follow all that. And I would love to hear your thoughts, you know, tell us what you thought about these two movies. Tell us, you know, what you thought of our discussion, what you agreed with, what you didn't like. Um, what are other things that are kids movies that you think are really powerful and you still love as an adult today and, and you still love them because you love like getting to feel like a kid or because you don't think they're kids movies. Let us know. You can email me at the ethicalpanda@gmail.com. You can find me on Twitter or Facebook also at the ethical panda. And if you go to my website, the ethicalpanda.com, you'll find all my contact information as well as this and my other podcast, Star Wars Universe podcast, we're doing episodes about the bad batch, different movies. We're going to start a book club back up again pretty soon. A lot of great things going on. All these podcasts are part of the stranded panda podcast network, which is a great network. We can find content on there. You can find content on so many different great parts of like the geeky world MCU Star Wars Star Trek. Um, we're covering like a lot of the shows that kind of don't fit into something exactly, but like they just did a whole thing on, uh, fast and the furious movies, uh, animation duration does all sorts of great stuff. They just did a whole thing on, uh, young justice seasons one and two. There's some great episodes. Check all those things out by going to strandedpanda.com. So I'm half myself, Paul, everyone else involved. Thank you all so much and have a great day. Luca Brazzi sleeps with the fishes and rap. Uh, so stonko. [MUSIC PLAYING]
