Faire Folk at Work
Vicky Nebeker
You know, I usually don't get all political with this podcast, BUT when a Faire Alum designs the look of a 30 foot giant ballon of a former President wearing a prison suit that was towed arourd San Fransisco Bay on a boat, I just gotta lead with that. Vicky also takes pride in the she was known as the "nice one" in the costume department and was rectruited directly by Phyliss to work for the faire.
- Broadcast on:
- 21 Sep 2024
- Audio Format:
- other
Well, then welcome to another episode of Fair Folk at Work. You know, when they say the fair was a village, it's more than a metaphor. People had to like build that stuff and paint that stuff. And my guest today, both painted and acted at the fair. Her name is Vicki Nebuchar, and she's my guest today. Hey, Vicki, how's it going? Okay. So I'm going to start you off with the first traditional Fair Folk at Work question, which is who was the person who said there's this thing called fair, and what did they say to get you out there? And I realized already talking to you. You're the one of the few people I know that was actually recruited by Phyllis. Recruited by Phyllis for the costume shop. Okay. But when it came to coming to the actual Renaissance Fair, I didn't even know about it. I was already working as a nurse and I was taking just one theater class because I'd done theater in high school, OCC or Orange Coast College, and her name was Sandra Mossad. There also were a couple of kids. One side came to the fair that I realized I'd gone to high school that we're already doing it. But I was very clueless, but what is this? Can I ask what your preferred theatrical experience was and what were you, what was the theater class you were taking at Orange Coast College? I think it was one of the classes was to work on stuff because having been raised Mormon, I had taught myself how to sew, and because I was so tall, 510, it was hard to get clothes long enough so I taught myself how to sew, so I was pretty good sewer already. So I wanted to help on some shows, but then I took an acting class and I ended up in quite a few shows. I ended up being a character actress, and I- Are you the saucy friend of the ingenue? Often. That's what I ended up being a fair too. Back in the 70s, I had a pretty astounding hourglass figure and had figured out how to do costuming on that well too. So in musicals, I was always the silly part. I did have acting talent, as you would call it back then, but one of the last plays that I did at Orange Coast College was the creation of World and Other Business by Arthur Miller, and it's about Adam and Eve and these angels, and I did it with Kelly McGillis. She was in the show before she was famous. Yeah, when I came to the fair, so it was Sandra Mossad from Orange Coast College. She got me to go. I fell in love with it. I ended up being Priscilla Edwin Farmington-Banger. I sold sausages at the fair. That was my monger thing. So I then, it was a couple of years, but I kind of found myself. What attracted you to the fair? It made me feel free. The way that I was raised was not free, and to go to this fair where there was not only this kind of theater that I'd never seen, I grew up with movie musicals and stuff that was off of Broadway coming to LA, and I was not prepared for environmental theater, which is what I called it back then, and what I think it still is when it's done right. Do you remember any particular food booths or show that you looked at and went, "Wow." Okay, so later on in my career with the fair, so I've designed in five different areas over 40 years. I became a scenic artist too, so I was noticing beautiful architecture for an event way back, and back then it was, and you said, "Food booth, the cookie booth, the cookie man." Up on top of the booth, it was like a, he harassed people. He went and opened all sorts of restaurants in the Castro, and he was at Ron Patterson's memorial, Michael Levine, and he was pretty. So were the cookies, but us young girls, he was like a rock star on top of a cookie booth, but I remember it was just, the booth made sense. Food wise, I'm not so much the food, but the architecture of the booth. Now when it comes to the where I like to eat food from at the fair, all these years, fish and chips, I found that it's the only thing I wanted to eat, and I now understand it. Let's see, it was too hot, you needed salt and all that stuff, and when I started in Agora, which we got those really hot days where we would hide under main stage to keep cool. Yes, I was telling somebody who said even the privies were wooden. They did. They were. Take periods to the nth degree, which I appreciated it during the part that I really became a part of later, which is the 80s, which is nonprofit, which is working with the community and workshop in the woods. Tell me how Phyllis misidentified a costume that you were wearing that you had made as one of the fair costumes in front of a TV producer, and that's how you came to the attention of Phyllis. She just looked at, she goes and we made that costume. She was trying to tell that the reporter, the kind of stuff that they were doing to all that time, she just was wrong, and it forged a friendship that lasted for quite a while. What did Phyllis share with you was her vision of what the fair was to be? One of my conversations that I had with her once was this. It was especially when I need to tell a little bit of backstory about this. Basically, because of Phyllis Patterson, because of the fair, because I worked at the costume shop and learned theatrical costuming, built as clothing, I'd learned a whole lot while I was working. It was a really hard job, but because of that, I went back to school and got five degrees in theater. The last degree I got was my MFA in technical theater design. She had asked me for at least eight years at that point when I was going to be her head of costumes. She really, really, really loved that I was going to school, not just doing her fair, but going on and creating a career for myself because of this experience. She kept begging me to be her designer. I told her, "You need to wait until I graduate, and I'll work for you for three years." But I said, "I'm going into this career late, and I have a dream of working all sorts of other places in my life." I finished school, and then her and I had a meeting once about what she wanted for fair. This is what she said to me, and I tried to do this because I've been there costume or a couple of times, and this is the choice that she always wanted. She goes, "The people who are in the streets make them look like they walked out of postcards, make them look like the real people, encourage them to look like everyday people, but kick it up a notch when it comes to the stage shows." As she said, the stage shows were the, how did she put it? The stage shows were the, you know how you put a sign out in front of a theatre? Well, actually the stage shows you needed to see something colorful and wonderful from afar to tell you that there's something else down the road. So basically, she kind of taught me a lot about how you attract the human eye and please it. So she wanted to recreate a village that could have existed in 1570 or whatever with lived in clothes and lived in buildings. Yes, and while I was at school, I ended up having a particular talent in distressing and dying clothes. So I was able to bring that with me too. And yeah, I came back and did it for them for three years after I got a school semester early because I could, Liz Mitchell was the head of costumes at that point and she was wanting to retire anyway. And so Phyllis asked me and then she asked me and I said, "Of course I would love if you want me to have that experience." So I can actually say that I'm one of the few people that ended up being in charge of a major department at the fair that started at the very bottom. Because when I worked in the costume shop for two years, they only let me make shirts. So I make really good shirts. Can I interrupt for a sec? Yeah. Where did you get your degree? San Francisco State University. I have AA and drama from college I'm in and then because the school wasn't taking any admissions, I went ahead and stayed at college and ran and just got a regular general degree while I was waiting. And then I got my BA at San Francisco State and at the end of working on my BA, I was asked to apply for a special program because my dean at that time at San Francisco State was August Copola. And so he was a dean that really, really cared about the film and theatre part of the fine arts department. He definitely, you know, with his brother doing what he was doing and August had invented the tactile dome, all that kind of stuff. So yeah, I had a really great dean. I had a really great teacher who taught me some really awesome stuff. He was the one, he goes, just make sure that the Renaissance Fair is not the only thing you do because you do other stuff really good too. After you did your three years at Fair, what was some of the other projects you use fair derived skills upon? Well, I have been the costume shop manager for five different Shakespeare theatres. So because of the fact that got involved with Shakespeare, plus at college and ran, college and ran was very, very much into Shakespeare. That's what they wanted the students to learn there. And so I not only was getting the experience at the fair, I was actually getting this huge knowledge of the whole practically everything, everything that the boys put in, reduce Shakespeare, which I actually got to design in later years in Idaho, talking about coming full circle. But it definitely affected the reason I got the Shakespeare festivals. But, and I've had this conversation with other people, plus I'm also working on my doctorate and writing about all this. Cool. Were you getting your doctorate? Not sure yet. I'm working with a person who is actually helping me journal. I'm being told to just write and write and write and write, maybe a book. But I'm at least doing the first steps, which is to figure out what I want to say and what I want to do and what I want to get my degree in. Very cool. But the fair also helped me do is it helped me go from somebody who was not this talkative, who was very shy and suppressed as a child, and it made me believe in myself. And because of that, I've taught at three different universities. I learned how to be a person who could speak intelligently from the fair. I learned how to do costumes in a non-traditional way and have it be accepted. I also was hired to do huge amounts of operas and musicals, because I was used to working with so one of the fairs when I was ahead of costumes, we did 1,000 costume approvals. That means we had 1,000 volunteers in the streets of Black Point. And if you can use to that and the nervousness that that amount of people can create sometimes, then you can do opera and you can do all that stuff. So not only did I design operas, but because of how I helped people with costumes, I also ran wardrobe departments for 30 years. When I go back and ask something that piqued my interest, when you said your method of running a costume department was different from the way that it's normally done, how would you describe the differences between you and other bucks? I wouldn't say that there's any normal way, but I got to experience by working with huge theater companies, small theater companies. I worked with the fair. I worked with all these situations. I'm a watcher, I watch people a lot, and I figured out for me a very, very good way to run a productive and actually enjoyable costume shop because I believe in the better the behavior, the better the show, the better the everything. What did you do to contribute to making your costume department different and therefore better? Music in the shop and everybody got to pick every day. One person got to pick the music. So I don't believe in silent shops. I also learned the thing about going to San Francisco State is they teach you about collaboration. And that is using every tool, including the people that work with you and finding out what their strengths are and using that all together to just make dynamic stuff, which is what we did. I worked with three people from South America, and what I liked it that I did for them is I went through the shop and I labeled all the boxes both in Spanish and English. I always cared about the environment. You shouldn't be, I don't know how else to put this. I've had people tell me that I run happy shops, fun shops, somebody's not walking up to you and going, "Why isn't this done?" It's more like walking up to somebody and saying, "Where are we with this?" And can we get together? I have a mellow moral compass. And I wanted to bring that to my work. And there's theaters that I worked for that were super famous, were the most horrible costume shops I ever worked with in my life. Can I give you my impression from the outside looking in at the costume department at the fair? They were hung up on what things looked like, but not how they got there. Does that make sense? Exactly. Yeah. I don't know why I'm focusing on the 70s and 80s, maybe because that's when I was there. But what were some of the things you did in that time period that you remember as something you took pride in? The costumes for cock and feathers. Okay. They certainly had what Phyllis was looking for in terms of kicking it up a notch for the stage shows. I'm being totally wrong for the period. The thing that she would try to say sometimes is it's okay to throw in something that makes people identify with the current times. And cock and feathers, I mean, Sandy was dressed like a rock star. Right? He was. He was our Freddie Mercury. Yeah, it worked. Yeah. But unfortunately, the costume department for the Patterson fairs, there's been a lot of different costume designers. It's interesting how that kind of played out, but I have favorites and then I have ones that aren't my favorites. Well, talk to me about your favorites. Doris Carn's costumes, when I came to work, she still had costumes there that were from MGM and stuff like that, and it kind of helped with a couple of the shows. It was just a real great cacophony of costumes to pull from. My absolute favorite designer was Carolyn Schultz. Carolyn Schultz wrote two books with Janet Bigelstone. They both wrote two books about Victorian and Elizabethan costumes that were so good that when I became a teacher, I made it a suggested text. I believe the fair was at its best in the 1980s. And just if you look at the pictures, it's the combination of costumes, the scenery, the canopies, just everything, you should make a pop. Speaking as a former lowly peasant, I think one of my first memories of fair is just remembering looking up and seeing a sky of burlap and how the sun was going through it. And the dirt and the dust was filtering by and going, wow, this is really a different place. For workshops, I would tell people, especially at Black Point, because those canopies, this whole serpentine and everything was just gorgeous. I said, think about the canopies as lighting, like with lighting gels. And I said, that's why some of the costumes looked even better is because of those canopies and the light that was hitting it, and filtering in through... And it would change during the day? Yeah. Do you have an opinion on whether fair is a good place to bring up a kid? I brought up both my kids at fair. My kids are fair breaths. I don't know what I did. I just know that I did my job well, and I never asked for anything, but I was allowed to bring my kids to work with me, my daughter, if there was an emergency. My daughter remembers playing under my cutting table, and when I had my daughter, I also had worked for a number of years in the Aylstance, and they built an extra room onto the Aylstance so that I could breastfeed my daughter. What was the Aylstand? Aylone. Mm-hmm. If you're going to work in an Aylstand, Aylone seems to have attracted a lot of people I've interviewed. Mm-hmm. Who owned Aylone? When I worked in Aylone, Chuck Sutter was in charge of the Aylstand, and that was before Jessie's days. When I worked in the Aylstand, we were so busy that sometimes we had 13 servers out front because Aylone had got so much business. I actually left performing to work the fairs in beverage. I still worked in costumes, but then I worked in beverage, and beverage, so I did costumes half-time, and I worked beverage, and I made enough in tips, and I'm talking quarters, to help me make it my way through school. Did you have a favorite hawk other than beer, beer, here's some beer? Of course, no, I don't remember. Probably more like, "What do you want?" [Laughter] You'd be working so hard the minute you turned around, you were pouring another, I mean, it was just ridiculous. That's when people were stupid enough to walk around with 12 cups in their hands and go, "No, I'm not drunk." Changing focus a bit, could you talk to me about some of the shows you did at Fair? They had this show called The Sheriff's Wife Show that I was in. I always won. Like I said, I was curvaceous. I was put in certain shows. I'm actually looking at a picture I found yesterday when I was going through stuff that's a picture of me, Judy Corey, Will Wood, putting a banana in his mouth. And I'm sure there was a good reason for that. Do you remember working with Judy Corey or Will Wood? Judy and I just always laughed together a lot, you know. She was just one of those people that she also did, I believe I remember she did a lot of directing. There were certain people that, those of us who were young to the fair, who we looked at people that we saw that just had an iconic flair to them. People like her spring horn, when I looked back, it was actors that just really naturally understood what was going on. I maintained a friendship for years with George Taylor and then the executioner. George, Will Wood and I have done stuff together forever because the Patterson's brought me back for all these different events and because it became a big part of Dickens and he was Father Christmas and all that stuff. So yeah, I have a really good, you know, not somebody you'd go and hang out with, you know, but very much a part of my experience there, absolutely sharing the stage with him. Really, it was delightful. When you look back on fair, what were the things that you, not necessarily shows or booths or costumes you did, but what were the things that typically brought you joy, what would make you go? Yeah, I like being here. Element is surprised. What would surprise you? Me and their booths, for instance, after you've done it for a couple of years, just doing something different, not, you know, turning into a Ren Fair Mall. Right, because there was a certain flexibility in the interpretation of what the Renaissance was. Yes, and we were never, I mean, it wasn't until I was deeply in my education and I realized how not authentically we were, but I made an effort when I was at a costume to bring some of that aspect of how to try to educate people in workshops about fabric and natural fabrics over non natural fabrics and to make themselves look amazing and different. How do you feel about different generations of fairs having different definitions of what is strictly period? How I see it is that each fair has a different importance for the generation that it's inside of. Right. And the generation of, there's a lot of us that are baby boomers. I was born in 54, you're born in 57. There was, I have found with talk, my talking to people, how many people were baby boomers that came to the fair in the late 70s and 80s. We really, we were seeking our hippiness. We're too young to be hippies. I call people are from our generation disco hippies because disco was big, so was hippies. But the 80s felt like for me now that I've lived. And seeing other prayers, I ended up doing come when I came back from working back East on Broadway tours, I, the people that had taken over the fair, fired me for props. I've had an opportunity to work within people trying to change it and do it their ways all the way through all these fairs. And my takeaways this, and that also keeps coming up in my writing is in the 80s. What was really nice about the 80s is this. We had the fair stuff from the 70s, 60s and 70s. So it had 20 years to become it. And then the 80s is when they really, you know, they were really doing black points and really doing a gore and it turned into a nine months out of the year job too. But what I also saw artistically happen, which was really awesome that I have not seen sensed because some people when they decide to take over a situation, they decide to get rid of stuff and they shouldn't know, because what made the 80s look so good is it was as if people had immigrated from all sorts of parts of the British Isles. Do you get where I'm going with this? It was more of a. There was more lived in stuff at the fair in the 80s that looked organic and not obviously theatrical. Well, even when we did workshops, we were told to create a green umbrella. And what that was is to create something that was unique about you that was not anybody out. And I think it helped all of us nurture these characters. Some characters that people have played their whole life up there. And I also think there's something about everybody sort of made their own costume. And then as a result, you really felt like it was your costume and you just put it on to go to work every day or every weekend every once in a while, somebody would come up with a costume that was hand sewn, all of it. And I was just like, do you realize you just did it the way they did back then? The fair ended up being a very, it was a changing of the garden my life. It was me being brave enough to live my own life and to have a purpose. And I'm really glad that I had the fair because I also wasn't a really bad accident. And I also suffer from extremely yucky, arthritic disease. I have continued to do my work. I actually stopped doing the red fairs, worked at Dickens, did it from my wheelchair, and then I finally actually last year retired from doing any of the fairs. And now I'm back to making costumes for the first time in 20 years. Can I ask you a different question? Have you tried at other job sites to recreate that feeling of sort of a village or a group of people united by sort of the same vision? Absolutely. How have you tried to do that and how successful have you been? Well, like I said before, I took it into my shops and collaboration, finding out what people are the best at, that girl that pounds grandma's great, well, yeah, she's going to do that. But assigning people to stuff that I was always a teacher when I ran my shops. I've never stopped teaching. In fact, after I'm done with you, I have one of my commissions. So what I was trying to say is I now do just run fair and Dickens costumes, but not for the company. Right. I do them because so many people have waited years for me to be doing costumes again that I now have a waiting list, and so my I make one or two costumes that show up at the fairs that I used to design the last couple of years. That's where I'm getting joy right now. Do you specialize or do you have a favorite class or gender that makes you happy? What I'm really good at is bodices. And one of the reasons I'm good at bodices that I made sure that I took outside courses when I was at San Francisco State. So I took out a department class in both weaving and tailoring. And in that process, I found out about how uneven the human body is. And so I'm kind of known for making bodices, but people who have never had a good bodice because I create each side independently. Does that make sense? It sounds like you listen or observe the way the actual body in front of you. And you have sort of the tools to make something that fits it. Yeah. Some of it's natural. I don't know where it came from. I'm also what you call a draper. I can take fabric and just drape it on your body and come up with what they call a muslin. And it's way faster than the way they usually do it because you've got the real human body there. Better than even taking measurements. You just kind of take a piece of material and create a pattern on their body. I know this is kind of like asking who's your favorite child, but do you have a favorite costume looking back on that you did? There is a costume that, okay, so when I was still just making shirts back in the day, other people asked me to do commissions. And I did not know what the heck I was doing. And I made this beautiful dress for this actress that has now been worn by two more generations. And it was just a noble costume. But the fact that that costume turned out, I found out about myself, you know, I believed in myself enough that I just looked at this picture and I basically copied a picture out of a book back then, you know, that's kind of how you did research. I didn't know I was a designer. So yeah, I have some favorite other favorite things that I've done. When I was a charge of costumes in 1993 to 1996, my comedian was, when I came back to visit years after the '90s, they were still wearing my comedian costumes at the front gate at Renfaire. Do you have a generic sort of rule of thumb about peasant costumes versus middle class versus noble? Well, there's a very clear distinction between the three. What do you think of the most salient? I think they're all important, but... I mean, what is most important to get right about a peasant costume, about a middle class costume and a noble costume? That you feel good in it. Okay. Because that's another thing that I do too. I learned in theater, I learned how to make costumes that you think are three different pieces and I make them so they go on in one piece. That's one of my specialties. What? Yes. If you go look at me on Facebook, you can, if you just take and look in my pictures and stuff like that, you kind of have an idea of the kind of stuff that I do. I also did something that was that I'm very proud of. I don't know who you're voting for for president, but I am the maker of the 32 foot chicken that went around Alcatraz. Do you know what I'm talking about? You know, I'm trying a blank. Well, if you enter my name in Donald Trump's name, you will see a 32 foot chicken on the back of a boat and it has sailed three times already. I am going to do that even as we speak. And it's got it. And you keep talking. It's a big old prison shirt on him. It's huge. Donald Trump, 32 foot chicken. San Francisco. Well, the last time that it went out on the water, it went global. Well, here is a clip from ABC Channel 7 News. And it is indeed a 32 foot chicken wearing a striped shirt. Yeah, that's not a striped shirt. It's a that's 32 foot wide drop that I had to paint those stripes on. Who had the idea of a 32 foot here in Vallejo? There was in the building that I lived in a lady that is part of an anti Trump group. And they offered me some really good money. It's a truly impressive piece of inflatable statuary. Well, I just think it's funny. You know, I've done all this other work in my life and not work for people because they saw that, you know. So you have an inflatable balloon aspect to your career? Not so much. I also made an Ivanka Trump one, which is interesting. Well, you know, I'm also known I'm because of what I did for the Dickens fair for the Patterson's, which is huge. I'm really good at making ginormous stuff. It just doesn't stop me and I'm turning 70 this year. But I figure as long as I'm when I so I don't hurt, which is kind of nice. But then I heard after you have other plans for giant inflatables. Not so far yet, but we'll see what happens, won't we? Yeah. Did somebody else engineer the Donald balloon? Yes. So I take it, you live and work in your apartment. Can you talk to me about that? I live in a 1960s apartment that has such a huge, you know, front room that I'm able to sew it in the comfort of either sheet or air conditioning when I need it, which isn't necessarily the case when you work the fairs. I think working at fair, you also learn a certain amount of just go with it. You know, it's never going to be perfect. But when it's time to go, you just go. Well, you also find out what your there's only every once in a while. There's just miracle moments. There was I was very mad because they decided on a costume at the last minute at Southern California, and I just said screw it and I fair was going to open the next day. They decided to add an entire costume and it was supposed to be king of winter. And I was like, what am I going to do? You know, and this is before I'd become more of a props person, the prop part of me. I now could make anything out of anything, but I kind of had to believe in myself and I was like, what am I going to do? Well, I stayed up all night. I found every piece of fabric that was gray or white or, you know, wintery color, so did on a tabber, so did the shoulders, made sure that the person could put their arms through a couple of them so that when they were doing king winter, I went outside the trailer where the costume shop was and I cut off several branches without asking and I made a crown. This was in San Bernardino, but it was just I thought it was one of those mornings where I'm like, my hands on my hip. I said, I just made that costume and it looked great and you know, it was pre game of throw. So every once in a while, there's those surprise I love when those things happen. It's not fair, but I couldn't figure out that I had to get a bomb for a show in Berkeley. Bombs are very expensive and I couldn't figure out what to do. So I gave up and I came around the corner at Ross and I swear there was a light that came on, like, you know, from heaven and there was this sale area and there was two pieces. There was a vase and then there was this other thing and I knew where I could get the things that you suck on for the bong and I made such a realistic bong that when they gave me notes, they were upset that it did not work. Well, it wasn't supposed to work. That's why they call it a prop. Yes. Right. I had made the prop so realistic right down to fake hash made out of Sculpey that at the end of the show, the director sent me a note and she goes, if I could have given you a Tony for that prop, so that shows how committed I am to trying to get it right. Get it back to being the costumer. When somebody came to you and said, I want to work in the costume shed, what did you say to them would be involved and what were you looking for as a potential employee? Well, when the shed was different because that was during the fair on the weekends and that would have to be people that helped me with checking out costume because I believed also I allowed a lot of people to borrow costumes so that if they didn't have all the proper pieces, then we could help them. So they'd have to be really good at customer service. Yes. And when it came to customer approval, it really, really, really mattered to me that people did not feel abused by costume approval because I had seen other designers do that in a very horrible way, which I believe there's a way that people and human beings should be treated. Even if they're being given criticism, there's a way to do it that does not destroy them. So you had to be somebody who was not coming into my costume situation with an agenda and some people do. And I found this in any creative and Denver I have had that there's all these different kinds of people you can always count on working there. What sabotaging everything around them? Have you ever figured out why people like that exist? No, it's one of those things I try to figure out because I really they call me Vicki the nice one because they used to call the costumers by a very derogatory name and I'm very proud to say that I was not one of those and people made I just I cared I hit like I said, I'd worked my way up in the ranks. I had been not treated that well by somebody who should have done their job better, so. Have you found when you've worked in costume sheds outside of fair? There are inevitably people who are negative and mean and nasty. How do you work around them? I smile. I was never a person I would get in the conflict, but if they were really difficult and especially if I was in my shop and I had to give them a warning, I only had to fire two people in my whole career. I usually brought people with me when I started the shop in Nevada, Black Point, one person was I'd gone to school with another person I'd gone to school at college and ran with. They were all classmates and some of them have are still doing fair in one way or another out there. One of them I students I brought to fair was Ruth Daughters, I don't know if you know her. No, I don't think I do. See the thing with me is I know everybody and with all these people passing away it sucks, but people who have known me for a long time, they really identify with me and the unfair is a big part of my creative life. Well, I'm running out of things to say. When you were kind enough to say yes to the interview, was there something that you said to yourself, I've got to be sure to mention blah, blah, blah. So this is your time to mention whatever you want, the blah, blah, blah. I'm glad that I got a chance to do it. I'm glad that, yeah, just I don't know how it's to put it. Well, when you get your PhD written out or at least a first draft, I have another podcast which is called Authors Reads, so if you would like to read an excerpt or a work in progress, we can do this again. And if that helps you focus your thoughts, feel free to get back in touch. And that's my August 2024 interview with Vicki Niveker. I'm been your host Dan McRoughlin and if you'd like me to pass along some comments to Vicki, you can email them to me at DJNG@earthlink.net, questions or comments themselves about the podcast can also be emailed me@DJNG@earthlink.net. And if you or somebody you know would like to participate in the podcast of Fair Folk at Work, you can email me@DJNG@earthlink.net. But that's it for this time. Thanks for listening. So long and bye-bye. [BLANK_AUDIO]