[MUSIC] Welcome to Dyson Mind, a podcast hosted by Brad Brown and Jason Kaufman to explore the intersection of life, games, science, music, philosophy and creativity through interviews with leading creatives. All are welcome in this space. [MUSIC] Well, we're back at it after a little bit of time off and what wetter, what wetter, what better way? Wow, it has been a while. What better way for us to be back into the swing of meeting creatives than to have one of our first ever guests back with us with a new book to talk about. That's right. You are, of course, talking about Shelley Mazenobel, who three years ago, give or take. Does that sound right? Let me look that up. I think it was, ah, so it was actually like within a month or so, within, within a month and a half of three years, she was like, episode, episode 25, November 22nd, 2021. Yeah. So, I mean, like we were saying to her off air, ah, after this interview, you'll hear in a moment, her willingness to waste her time with us when we were a brand new podcast, you and I really had not at all figured out where this is going to go, or I should say we had and we were wrong. Yeah. And, ah, I think her willingness really, I'll speak for me, really legitimized this little endeavor of dice in mind. Like maybe it has legs, maybe some people will enjoy this. Maybe we should keep going. And that really was in part due to Shelley's time with us. And so to have her back, yet again, a third time, actually. Yeah, is, is really cool. She, when we, when we had her on the first time, um, she actually, it was actually fun. It was truly fun. And, and, and she actually, you know, after, after we, after you hit the end, after you stopped recording, um, she actually made it a point of saying that she had fun. She had been, she had been doing the Dragon Talk podcast. So this was a long time. Yeah. So she was a pro. She was a pro. So she could have, you know, so she very well could have just said, thank you and moved on, but she stayed on and chat with us a while. Um, and I mean, she was part of the Dungeons and Dragons machine. She was legit with the biggest game in the history of RPGs. Yup. And for her to, yeah, for her to spend a little time and then write and then, then really have a good time with it. Uh, it was, that was really, that was really meaningful for us. And so it's, uh, it's been lovely the times we've been able to bring her back and, uh, you know, again, like last time we had her on, it was with Greg Tito and they talked about their book at the time. And it just so happens. Shelly came back to talk about her book at this time. Shelly Mazanobel is an award-winning author of essays, books, two unfinished novels, some short stories and one act plays that have actually been produced. Most surprising, she is sometimes a mother. She loves writing about reality TV almost as much as parenting. Then there's all the Dungeons and Dragons stuff. Shelly has written three books about D&D. Confessions of a part-time sorceress, a girl's guide to the Dungeons and Dragons role-playing game. Everything I need to know I learned from Dungeons and Dragons, one woman's quest to trade self-help for elf help and welcome to Dragon Talk, Inspiring Conversations about Dungeons and Dragons and the people who love to play it co-authored by Greg Tito. Most recently, Shelly has written How to Dungeon Master Parenting, a guidebook for gamifying the child or inquest, leveling up your skills and raising future adventures. So, it's been a while since Jason and I have recorded together and I think it is only appropriate that we have Shelly Mazanobel back with us because Shelly, I believe, and Jason correct me. You were our first guest that was someone that we hadn't known beforehand. Our first, our first Air Corps famous guest, absolutely. We were blown away that you said yes the first time. Yeah, when you said yes the first time, it was like, whoa, someone who we didn't actually like know, we actually wanted to like come and chat with us. And You could have played harder to get. You could have. You really could have. Wouldn't have taken much. No, we're just so excited to talk to you. Oh, we are so excited to have you. And you coming back now is just it's such a great, great timing too because you have a new book coming out. And you mentioned just before we hit record that the timing of the book. It's really good. It's really good based off of a number, another release that's going on and I don't want to overshadow your release, but it's just it's interesting. So your book, How to Dungeon Master Parent. I think it's great. And I was actually talking to my wife tonight about this. Now, I don't allow family members to see the materials that we get, you know, pre release. It's just, I do that as well. Right. Right. Of course. But, but also none of our family members would ever want to see anything associated with this podcast. So I don't know. I bring that up. I bring that up only because when I read her the title about it, she was she had the look on her face kind of like I might I might be interested in in seeing it. So so I would so I yep, I've just got recorded permission. So I might I might send this over now after the podcast so that she can take a look at it just because even though we have adult children now, it it might be it still might be a good read because let's be honest, even with an 18 and a 20 year old. You're still parenting. Oh, yeah, we're still parenting. It never ends. Did anyone tell you this before you dove into this job? It never ends. No, no, it just changes. Just backly. Yeah. No. So what was the what was the onus behind you going down the path and writing this one? Well, okay. So first of all, I also like to refer to it as how to dungeon master parenting, because it's easier to say, but as usual, I have tacked on a very long subtitle. I miss it. I'm always I almost always forget. So I actually have to write it down. How to dungeon master parenting a guidebook for gamifying the child rearing quest, leveling up your skills and raising future adventurers. That's actually how to DM. Now, it did you did you come up with that? I think I came up with most of that. And then thankfully, the fine people at university of Iowa Press, finessed it and made it. Yeah, it's so good that it's actually the subtitle that really caught me. Because, because I mean, like we own it. Well, it's like, I mean, like the three of us, obviously, we kind of like, you know, kind of like, well, she must be going in this direction, like we get it on the face of it. But then you see that it's like, yeah, I'm in, you know, because it's like, okay, this isn't just like lip service. This is this is the real thing. And obviously, going through it, it's like, this is hilarious. It's like, you're literally DMing your kids. You are DMing your kid. I have believed for a long time that dungeon masters are the smartest people on earth. And that you can pretty much learn anything from a dungeon master. And you always hear the reverse of people saying, Oh, I learned storytelling from being a dungeon master, or I learned like how to command an audience because of dungeon mastering, or how to lead people or public speaking, like that, that kind of thing. So I mean, if you can learn all of those things, I got to thinking what can't you learn from a dungeon master? But the parallels between dungeon mastering and parenting are eerie. Like, there's, there's a lot of similarities. Like, what started in my brain is like, what if like, maybe I could write an article or an essay about this? Actually, the more I dove into it, I was like, Oh, no, there actually is something here. Dungeon masters can teach parents, even if you don't play D and D, even if you've never read dungeon master, even if you don't ever want to be a dungeon master, you just have to think like one, you just have to take the tenants of dungeon mastering, and really just D and D overall. And I'm telling you, there are some pretty amazing best practices and how tos. They say babies don't come with rule books, but I beg to differ. I think they do. And this logic like totally legitimates the notion of if you're having dinner and everyone's trying at the table, you're doing something right, spoken like a true dungeon. There is a section in there that talks about different DMing styles and how that might inform your parents. Oh, I saw it. Um, there's a, um, I forgive me. I took this. And we, so we've had, and thank you for this and thank you to your team, because like, is this, is this episode drops in this interview drops? Like the book is still a fewish weeks from actual release, but, but so, but we've had the, the, the galli print for some time. And I took the quiz because I couldn't, I couldn't resist. I took the quiz. Um, and I thought, okay, that's, that's pretty clever and, and nuts. Um, I don't have it in front of me. I've got to find it. Um, I felt right in the middle, like exactly in the middle of, right, right down the middle and here, Brad can, can vamp, well, I'm looking forward, but I'm curious what do you think of her as well? Well, well, as you're, as you're doing that, I, I, just as a, a side comment, kind of sidebar, I found it when I was just looking, when I first got the copy, one, I loved that, um, you know, at the beginning of the book, you got a quote from Dr. Megan Connell, who has been a guest on my show. She's great. She's, and, and you got a quote from, um, pod stash wick all hail time. You know, um, you know, so Todd was like one of the first people to respond, which that's so cool. My heart, you know, so both, both a fan of him from his, from the stuff we've seen from him from D&D and from Star Trek, obviously as well. Um, never heard of it. Yeah, I figured we shouldn't part, we won't talk about that. Yeah, it's newer, um, but I found the quiz. I want your opinion since he wrote the book here. Um, uh, this, this intrigued me. I haven't thought about this for a while, but I'm, I'm thinking about it now. I write down the middle. Uh, I scored equally fighter and Paladin. Okay. And like, I was looking at that, I was thinking, you know what? That's actually like Brad's given me everybody. Brad's given me like, maybe I like I can see that in my parenting. Really? Right. Uh, yeah. No, that, that's, that's got pretty high face validity for me. Like I can see that based on the situation. Like, I mean, anyone who knows me knows that fighter is not what comes to mind. Right? So it's a nice paladin. I see with you lover doesn't come to mind any sooner either, but like I'm not an aggressive person, but I don't need that visual either. No one does, but, but yet, um, when it comes to my girls, especially when they were a little bit, even now, even now that the first one is in college, um, super protective. Right. But, but then otherwise. Yeah. So I, I got to take out of that. I thought that was a really neat tool for the book. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like, it goes a little, it backwards in like how you would react. The quiz is, um, we can give you an example. Can I give you an example? Please. Like one of the questions. Okay. Yeah. Uh, let's see. You are receiving unsolicited advice about your parenting choices. Whom do you prefer to hear it from? A, to smartly dressed teenagers and a glossy pamphlet. B, your kickboxing instructor. C, a keynote speaker at your weekly charity event. D, hopefully you'll never know because they were smart enough not to show their face. E, a book, even this one, gosh, aren't books just the greatest? Yeah. Okay. So that's the kind of, uh, questions that you'll be asked. And then your answers will determine like what you might play in D and D, but also how that may also, like you said, uh, inform some of your parenting choices. All parents have a little bit of fighter in them. Let's be honest, like you're going to do anything. Yes. To protect your kid, but there, there might be like a rising sign somewhere in the background too. You know, the, the, the cleric who's very just calm and for you and the wizard who's always just like, you know, there to help you with your math homework or whatever. Not me. I play a wizard in D and D. I do not play one in real life. Why this book, Shelley? I mean, why, why now from you, like I'm really, really curious, like how did you get from here to there? It's like, what, what was the genesis? So I have, I can't remember when last time we talked, had I already, I think I already had the D and D club at my school. Yes. We talked a lot about it. So we did that because we did talk about the whole education and D and D and how great it is for kids. Well, I, so we had a second season of the D and D club. Oh, good. I know. And now my son just started middle school and the, the elementary school actually did ask if I still wanted to run the D and D club, even though my son's no longer there, like I can't do it anymore. But unfortunately his, well, his middle school has a thriving D and D club from what I heard, I have been forbidden from entering those halls. I am, I am not allowed. He was like, made it very clear. He doesn't know the, he doesn't know the connections are welcome to middle school. He does not exactly changed so quickly. He was like, you will have nothing to do with that club. You will not ever step foot in the school unless you're picking me up early. Like, no, it'll pass. It'll pass. But anyway, I was spending a lot of time around kids and dungeons and dragons and all of those things that I have heard about how great D and D is for kids and all the amazing social emotional learning and the math, the reading, the writing, all of that I was seeing in real life. And also I was a dungeon master and I was learning a lot about the role of dungeon mastering. Guess what? By doing it. And all of the things that I thought about DMing were completely wrong. But there's a lot of DM skills that transfer to parenting. There's a lot of, if you were describing a great dungeon master, you might use some of the same words to describe a great parent or at least how you strive to be as a parent. They're very generous collaborators. They are skilled at dealing with many different personalities. They're great at improv. They are very patient. They can pretty much do anything. Empathy, that's so important. And I kept seeing the similarities between the things that I was striving for, parenting my kid and the things that I was striving for DMing for these kids. So basically this book, I guess, was born of my insecurity because you're always wondering, am I doing this right? Does my son, does he like me? Does he compare me to other moms? Would he choose a different mom if he could do it? Will he have good memories of this? These are many of the same questions I asked myself after every DMing session. Those kids like me? Do they like D&D? Are they having good memories here? Am I doing it right? What are they learning from me? What is my son learning from me? You see other families and you think, oh, wow, they're so different than our family. They eat dinner together every night. We don't do that. We're very, very strict and we're kind of like a little bit more permissive. Their houses look different. Everything is different. And yet, we're all playing the same game. We just all have different roles. And again, that's a very important thing to learn about playing Dungeons and Dragons. You've all played D&D with different people, I presume, right? And you notice they play differently, but it's still the same game of Dungeons and Dragons. So all of this really got me thinking about how similar all of those thought patterns were, but also a lot of the same actions that a Dungeon Master might employ in a game were also some of the same actions that I was employing or trying to employ parenting my kid. It all just kept overlapping. For instance, I thought 2DM you had to prep a lot. I'm sure I've told you or you've heard the story about my first attempt. I totally already prepared. I had everything on rails because I thought that's what you're supposed to do. I can't go into this without knowing every single little tiny detail. And then, of course, the players didn't do anything that I had planned because they're not supposed to. It's their world. They're supposed to just explore and just see what they want to do and what's over here and turn this corner and who the heck knows? Parenting's the same. Like, there are obviously basic skills you should learn before your child arrives. Maybe how to put them in a car seat. Maybe like how to change a diaper. If you are now in possession of a child of diaper wearing age, there are some very basic things that, yes, please learn CPR. There are things you should know. And then there's literally millions of things that you don't need to know because they're probably never going to happen. I found that very, very freeing as a dungeon master. And I became a much better dungeon master when I freed myself from worrying about all of these what-ifs that probably were never going to happen. And just knowing the things that the basic survival skills really gave me confidence so that when those random what-ifs did happen, I just knew like, okay, what would a dungeon master do? I'm just going to roll with this. You didn't have to be a parental encyclopedia. Nope. You can just improv your way straight out of this situation and it's going to be fine. That's pretty cool. That's- I do question why there is not a chapter on TPK. But I suppose there's always a page limit for any book. Oh, yeah. The editor probably put that. I'm sure I had it in there. I'm sure you had it in there. You hit something and just maybe I'm just side-borrowing arm rather holding just for a second. But you hit on something and that is that, you know, parents sit down or, you know, you have your kid and you have your parents, your kids' friends and their parents. And maybe you all parent a little bit differently. I know, you know, Jason and I have known each other 32 years. We both have- Wow. We have two kids- Tell you about it. Yeah. Yeah. We both have two kids. He's got two girls. I've got a boy and a girl. We parent differently. Yeah. You know? And, you know, just based off of how we were raised culturally, everything like that, we do. And we talk about it and we know we parent differently. You know? But that's okay. We don't look down on each other for it. We laugh about areas where things might have gone goofy. You know? I'll say this because I know for sure that that- No one's listening. No one in my family will ever, ever hear this. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Like my- I was joking with- I was telling him the story that yesterday my son came home, my 20-year-old son came home with both of his ears pierced. Didn't see that coming. Wow. Yeah. So, you know, but- What would you do? I'm the type of parent. I'm the type of parent. He's 20 years old. He's been wanting to do it for a while. You know? He made the conscious choice. He made the decision to do it. I didn't know he was going to do it beforehand, so I didn't have time to have a discussion with him. He made the decision. I wasn't going to knock him for it. You know? It's one of those things where if he doesn't want him after a while, he can- he can take him out and they'll close. Yeah. So, one of those things that he can- he can, you know, and if I back out of it later if he wants to, so it's not a big deal. It's not a big deal to me. But I do think it's neat too. But- but my point is- sorry, just before I didn't want to turn this about me and my point is- No way. It's funny. You say that and I just think there's a broader context to that is that, you know, the way you said it is and the way you describe it, it's just too bad we can't have that type of mentality in a broader context where we just- we can be different, but we can still exist and have these type of discussions and- and- and still learn and- and, you know, and still game it. I think that's one of the things from the book. Like one of the reasons I think that like my wife would be interested in the book and she doesn't play is- I think you can come at this book from an angle of having gained or you can come on a book from not having gained or being a parent or not or being a new parent. And I think you can see- there is, I think, a hook to gaming potentially in this book, even if you haven't gained before as well. Okay, I'm glad you said that and saw that. I did try. I didn't want to- I mean, there's like 90 million people who count themselves, fans of Dungeons and Dragons. Right. Are they all gonna buy the book? I don't think so. So there's gonna be some people in there that I don't want to cut out. Like I actually want those people who are parents to see this book and be like, well, that's kitschy. That's weird. Right. I'm just a master, can teach me how to be a parent. Yes. Like I actually wrote it with those people in mind too. Like we're not getting too inside baseball here, you know, at any point. When I'm talking about the D&D stuff, I'm- it's more of an explanatory sort of way. Just one second base- Jason baseball is an American sport that they throw a ball and you hit it. Okay. That's the one like fast cricket, right? Side kind of. Yeah. Okay, good. Thanks for that. Yeah. No, I do think, Shelley, though, that that comes through. Looking through the book, it's like not lots of random number generating tables. It's like when I saw that and started going through it, I thought very much what you're saying, like the sweet spot to me seems to be almost like the D&D or gaming adjacent. Right. Like maybe you know people who play, but this is neat. And you know, I mean, we've all been new parents, right? Yeah. And we've probably all seen like I can look at that. No, it moved. Yeah, that shelf over there. And that's where I still have all the baby books that either my wife and or I read. And I will say the baby repair manual or maintenance manual, which is written for dads. So that was hilarious, like, you know, very simple diagrams. But but the whole point was like, I think like with your book, you can access it and it's just so darn non-threading. Yes. Right. That it's about but seriously, right? It's about and that's what gaming should be too, right? That's what being at the table of your all, you know, you're all welcome at the table. And here are some tricks and here are some tips and let's have some fun. But like you were saying right at the end of the day, you're all going to play your own way. And this is something common that can help you. Yes. And that is something that I've always heard from Dungeon Masters, from the people who make the rules of this game, my coworkers, like lead designers have always said, you don't don't worry about the rules. They're there as a guide. Use them or don't. It doesn't matter. And that is like my mom used to always tell me that as well. Like, there are no rules, like you just figure it out. And I found that to be horrifying. Like, but I want there to be rules. I don't want to figure this out. But then you learn pretty quickly. Like, okay, like it is whatever works for you, whatever is going to work for your family is what's like, I thought I would have been a totally different parent than the parent that I am. Like my son and I were just talking about this the other day, because Bart, my husband, is like way more of like the, I will discipline like, I am here to lecture and tell you the things like he's much more like a bad guy, the bad cop. And I'm like, no, I'm the gentle parent. Like, I am shocked by this. I thought for sure I would be a tough love mom. Like, I have a tough love mom. She was the greatest. Yeah, I just thought like, absolutely. No, I realize also that you, you don't, you can't really determine what kind of parent you're going to be until you get the kid, because you don't know what kind of kid you have. That's right. So very early on, we realized this is not a kid you can yell at. And thankfully, he never did many things that we had to yell at him. When we just would raise our voice to be like, don't cross the street or something. Like, he would, like, almost burst into tears. Like, he was just like, did not respond well to that. You can't yell at this kid. But what you can do is like, sit him down and he loves to talk. He just likes to like talk about his feelings. Like, what happened? Like, I use role playing on him all the time, because like, he really likes to like, act out a situation. Like, how could we have done this differently? Okay, you be the substitute teacher and I will be you. And I'll imagine like, you're coming into a class of strangers and you're like, you know, the role play stuff works on him. So I am forced by my child to be a gentle parent. I am what I that is a parenting style. That is a parenting style I read about before becoming a parent. I was like, Oh, hell's no. And that is me 100% with that kid. I only have one. You have multiple kids. So you can probably attest to this. They're not going to be the same. Like, just because you have one that responds well to gentle parenting. The other one may not. So you do like a dungeon master have to be able to tailor your actions to different personalities to different player types. And that's just a skill. And you said you had to kind of, you kind of like, counter and you meld with your spouse as well. Because, yeah, because like, for me, because I thought I was going to be because I was always the fiery one. And Jason knows us when I was younger, I was the one that had the short fuse. When I was younger, well, it turns out, bless my wife's heart, she has a short fuse too. And so I just, I just, by default, mellow, and so I became the mellower one. And so, so I'm the mellower parent than her. And she's not, I mean, no, no, stop on your head. You're doing great. No, no, no, no, but the same too. Like, you know, no capital punishment for our kids. Like, oh, like, like, raging like a barbarian, like, bar is just more of like, you can't, we can't do this. You have to ex, and he still has gentle undertones. Right. But yes, he's much more of the heavy hand. I don't, I mean, maybe like you though, maybe like you're saying, maybe by default, one of us brought it up a notch. I'm just wondering if we just, we just ended up kind of, we all just kind of ended up, I imagine Jason, you and you and Amy do the same thing. We just kind of end up complimenting each other. I'd like to think so. Another chapter now. I want to write a chapter on co-dm and co-parenting. You just gave me more ideas. Oh, there. See, there's your, there's your second book. I was going to say cough cough sequel. You know, the advanced, the advanced DM guide, the advanced thing, like bonus content. But okay, let's go. There we go. One new book. Yeah. We'll see. Now there's another reason to join us again for another episode. There you go. See you next year. How long did it take you to, once, once you knew what you're going to do, how did it take you to write it? That's a good question. Okay. That's a really good question. I feel like I had a big window of time, like maybe nine months almost. And I probably didn't do anything for the first six months. It sounds like a good writer. Like just, oh my god. Oh, what am I going to write about? That's not true. I did. I like tinker to way, tinker to way, tinker to way. I am not great at the, just get the first draft out. Oh, sure. That's like the, that's the really hard part for me. I know some writers write and edit at the same time, and I do not, oh, I don't do that. I can't do that. I just have to put something out there and then build and build and build and then cut, cut, cut, cut. I really, it was probably like seven to eight months. Okay. Okay. And then it's, the whole publishing process is so weird because it's like really slow. Like nothing's happening. And then it's all of a sudden like, what now? It's this and now you have to do the edits and review the galley and blah, blah, blah. And like, all these things all happen at the end. And I mean, I was still trying to change things like three weeks ago. And they were finally like, oh, stop, stop. This book is going to the printer. Stop. But yeah, you just never, you never really done. Are you never? I just don't want to see typos and anything I put out there, but you know have to be there. I, I, so there's going to be an audio book version, and I got to narrate it. Oh, cool. And I actually found like, two typos in that process, like curses. So the recording where you're swearing, they cut that out. I don't use that for the bonus material. The, the unabridged version. Yes. Yes. Definitely. Oh, that's funny. What else is so so beyond that? Yeah. Okay. What else has been on your plate? Yeah. Oh, beyond writing books. Yeah. Well, well, well, maybe maybe I don't want to say book. I should just say book. But this is your second book. Yeah. It's my fourth, technically. Oh, yeah. About D&D. Like, what is happening? Oh, my God. What I thought my path. That's amazing. I'm very grateful. But I mean, D&D is just endless inspiration. Have you, have you done any of the cons this year or anything like that or? I, well, I didn't. I was going to go to Gen Con, and then I had to record the book during that time period. I had like one window of time, so I couldn't go. But it was what I heard a great show. But yeah, we've been very busy. As you know, is there much going on with D&D? I mean, a few little things, few releases happening. Brand new core rule books. The 2024 player's handbook, DMG, which is done to the master's guide. I'm sure your listeners know that in the monster manual. As you mentioned, at the top, Brad, the release date is serendipitous. This book, my book, comes out on the same day as the dungeon master's guide, which I thought was, I mean, totally unrelated. They're published by different publishers. I mean, a good DM or in fact, anyone who reads would be the Bibles. That's, I mean, obviously hopefully Amazon will use their help. They should be bundled, really. They should be like a little bundle right there in the bottom of the page, you know, where they're like, you should buy this and this. I mean, the DM guide is a little like dungeon master. That's right. The DM guide is a little harsher and darker than your book, but I think that's a nice balance. Yeah. Well, you know, this, the 2024 dungeon master's guide, I am in love with that book because for the first time ever, it's teaching you how to be a dungeon master. Oh, good. It's not assuming like any, any inherent knowledge, it starts at the beginning. What is a dungeon master? What is this role? What have you signed up to do here? And it's got so much guidance, so many resources, like there's a bunch of handouts, there's sample adventures, there's a lot of hooks, there's like a bunch, I love maps and there's like 12, 12 or 15, I should know this at the top of my hand, but there's lots of maps that you can customize, like just very commonly explored locations. You're going into town, here's the town market, here's a town square, a dragon's lair, here's a dragon's lair, here's just a dungeon, here's a forest, like a key, like so many, like just really good and resources. And they also put in, which I thought was brilliant advice, like real world potential problems that a dungeon master would need to solve, like what do you do if your players don't like each other? Like, you know, just how do you, how do you manage personalities? How do you get scheduling conflicts, like that kind of, these are issues that apply to a home with two or more children? Absolutely, yes, and yes, a lot of that, of the same advice that you would give a dungeon master applies to a parent, you know, one of the most basic things that I think new parents should really consider is a session zero, that's in a D&D world, the session zero, the party would come together, talk about their goals for the campaign, talk about what kind of campaign it is, what their players are, like that, how do we know each other, like that kind of thing, just, you know, very basic, here's what to expect, here's my goals, what are your goals? It's a great idea for new parents, ideally like before that child arrives. Whatever, no, and hopefully won't be a surprise, like, oh, I don't have any of my characters prepped, no, but I mean, like, I think, I think between my wife and seriously, between my wife, I never thought about like this, between the two of us deciding, yeah, it's time to have a kid, right? Like, not just, we'll have a kid, like we just assumed, but like, okay, let's try to have a family between that moment and number one arrives, I think honestly for us, it was a session zero, like there was just constant background chattering about little bits and pieces over it, because that was a, you know, I don't know, over that year maybe or whatever it was, like, that was like a constant discussion and you're right, it is like a session zero. Yeah, trying to name a child is even harder than trying to name a character. And I mean, you, I guess you could do like a random baby named generator, but I don't know what you would come up with. I was the worst when I came to the baby to naming. I was, I have, I have a mother was a teacher too. And so, we come up with a name and then by chance it was slipped to my mother and she goes, Oh, I would have so and so, oh, he was, that's there goes that name off the window. So we lost three names, because somehow they slipped to her. And, and have you not heard of the GM screen? Yeah, well, that the, it was, it was almost better in a way that we knew ahead of time. But, you know, I should have to love the child. I didn't want, I didn't want, I didn't want B names, because last name was Brown and all of my family started with a B and I didn't want to carry that on. And I didn't want anyone to have initials that spelled out a name because my thank you for thinking of that, you know, because I'm, I'm just gonna say, you're Bob. I'm B-O-B. So, I didn't want that. So, I had all these named out and I had syllable, you know, I had syllable with words. Was it wine with anything? You know, so I had, it, I was the worst when it came to it. You were crazier. You were crazier than us. I didn't, we didn't want anything that would be readily, um, abbreviated, right? Like, I was just, I just covered, I had all kinds of, this was shock Brad. I had all kinds of opinions about Bill of like, but like naming our kids, it was like, I was surprised to learn, I had all kinds of opinions about, right? I guess I just felt strongly like, I don't want to give a child a name which will then never be used. Oh, interesting. That seems like a lot of work for nothing. My son's name. Well, that's like my name. Yeah. My name, real name is Michelle. No one ever calls me Michelle. Right. Like, it's completely wasted. The same people who named me Michelle, nicknamed me Shelley. And you never use Michelle? That seems like a lot of effort. We're going to call you Michelle so we can call you Shelley. Okay. There you go. Um, there is a section in this book that, um, lists the most popular names across the forgotten realms and also gives you advice if you would like to forgotten realms up your child's name. Oh, looking right now. I'm. Yeah. I mean, yeah, that is a nice name. There's some creative license here of it. I like the cooler forgotten realms name. Oh, yes. There are a lot of vowels and consonants. Oh, yeah. That's that's how you can can forgotten realms up any name. You just basically remove all the vowels and add apostrophes. Oh, it's funny is we did think about Charlotte for our daughter's name. So that's a great name. So I didn't consider this when I was writing this that one day I would have to read it in the audio recording. Oh, yeah. I'm like, oh, okay, I'm just going to have fun with this. In, in hindsight, as modious Brown would have been really cool. Oh, that actually doesn't nice. Doesn't it? Maybe doesn't it? Maybe I will start to refer to you as such. I think that's good. I think I could go for that. I think, yeah. But you got to think about the nickname. Do you think people? Oh, I know Ruby, but I won't say it right now. You can't say it right now because I'll pull out your nickname and then we'd have to our read this whole episode. Not really. It's we made the mistake of both A being an opportunity and B being in it together. Both of those mistakes. Yeah, well, we could call you Asmo. Asmo's good. Yeah. Asmo Brown. I'm going for the whole. I still like Asmodeus. I do like it. Yeah. If you wanted alliteration, though, I mean, Big B Brown is kind of cute. Big B. But see, that's that's the whole B thing again. I know. And and and see my I was and my dad's my dad was William, but he went by Bill or is he's still here. My mom is Bonnie. My brother is Ben. We had a dog named Brit. So everyone was B. My grandparents made name was Bundy, no relation to or Ted. So there was like so many bees. So when I came time to name the kids, like my wife liked Bridget for a daughter, but I'm like, can't be a B. Sorry. I like Bridget too. So but we named Asmo. Asmo as a nice ring. Yeah, like we did. We did. My son's name is Trent. And we named him his middle name starts with a J because I thought well, he could be TJ. Right. Nobody calls him TJ except my I was thinking TJ Hoker. No, my no. Well, that William Shatner. My my dad calls him TJ, but no one else does. Nobody does. Nobody picked up on it. Really? You do have to really put a lot of thought into that. What's what's funny is as parents, we've just blown how much time in this conversation on names. And from the perspective of it is, but from the perspective of the child. Like I remember my daughter saying to me at various points, I can't imagine being anything else, right? Like, unless you really epically fail, like they're going to be fine with their name. They'll have never known anything else and probably won't give it a whole lot of thought. Sometimes I will think about like, how weird like we have just named this person. Oh, yeah. For the rest of their life. Oh, yeah. Like you said, they can't imagine themselves not being that name. Yeah. You know, so parenting man, wild. Well, like you said, like you said, there's no there's there's no need to become an encyclopedia. And I think you you hit it to even being a DM. I think I get caught and I think we talked about this even in a prior episode with you. It you get you I'm I'm the type of person that gets caught up and trying to be an encyclopedia. And then I get wrapped up like a like a slinky, you know, when I try to DM because I don't do it often enough, you know, and then I make a mess. Yeah, it's free. Well, and but I just let's ask as modious. I just have to get that out of my system. I'm I'm better now. I'm I'm better now. But but I mean, I think it's right. It's like parenting and DMing. It's at the end of the day, like fundamentally how capable are you to pivot in the moment when the unexpected happens, right? I mean, that's kind of like the whole book, right? Of of these things are going to happen. Some are foreseen. Many are unforeseen. And and can you keep the table together? And can you keep your what's about you and find that path? Yes, that is one of the best things that a parent can learn from a dungeon master is be skilled at improv, the the whole yes and the improv tactic. And I like I like yes and but I also like no buts. And both of them quite a bit parenting, but it's really important because it doing the the yes and or the no but helps build trust. But it also really helps a kid learn or it gives them agency. It helps them realize, Hey, my idea has merit because you're not shutting it down. And it could be kids come up with some wild ideas. That's like instead of just saying, absolutely not, we're not doing that. Is there a way that you could say, Oh, I see what you're trying to do there? So what if we did this instead? And that's a great thing for a dungeon master because players come up with wild ideas. Players want to be heroes. Players want to do remarkable things. They want their ideas to succeed. And you as the dungeon master might be thinking, Oh my gosh, if they want to do that, then I'll have to figure out like, whatever, the behind the scenes dungeon master stuff, which is a terrible definition of what like that's a terrible example, just stop, just stop, I have to figure it out. But they're allowing the player to do it. And then that makes the player feel invested. And that makes gives the player confidence. And that is just such an important thing for kids to learn at an early age is like, no, like you matter. Your decisions and your choices have value. And they also have consequences. So well, you can't try to do, slip past this dragon that is clearly awake. And you're wearing armor. That's very clanky. You can try to do that, but understand there are consequences to what you're trying to do here. That would probably be a good no butt situation. Yeah, but like that. No, go ahead, J. Go ahead. Well, I was just, I was just, I know how I think and like, as soon as like, whenever I've looked at the book, I like in the back of my mind, I'm doing this. And I'm curious if this entered your mind at all while you were writing and even just conceptualizing, like, I mean, it's DMing and you know, you're kind of close to D and D, right? And you know, there's so, so like, when I look at this stuff, I can't help. And it's not just with D and D, I just, whenever I look at life, the real world through RPGs, which I really, I mean, Brad and I talk about this all of the time, I really like doing that. It's just fun. I can't help, but at least in part, question what's the role, right? How did the dice fall? How did the die fall? Oh, right. Okay. So you see, so I'm just curious. I'm curious, like, if I had tried to write something like this, I would have really, really struggled to not want to like refer even tongue and cheek to, right? Well, in this case of an addy one, I had this epic failure, right? I'm curious if you ever like thought through the lens of the dice roll, modifiers, anything, or if it was always much more thematic for you as you were writing. There is a section that has like, okay, so actually, one of the things that I really love about the book, if I may say that, I wrote the book, the moppet manual entries, which are written like monster manual entries, but they're really just, you know, different phases of a child from- Yeah, the terror, the toddler terror. Yeah, the tot, the totling terrors and like the tweens and the teens, like they all have been started up in that way. There is a section that does talk about the like a challenge reading for certain parenting tasks, or what you might do with, if you were skilled in athletics, for instance, I give examples of like, why you might need this skill, like, here, like as a parent, you're gonna probably have to train up in all of them. You're gonna be proficient in everything, but, and here's why you might want to be, you know, putting a little more emphasis on in these categories. So I dabble in it in that regard. No, I'm just, yeah, no, that's exactly what I mean, that's absolutely true. I'm just curious, you know, we, we talked to, we are so fortunate, we get to talk to so many people, cool people like you who have written, created, whatever. And one of the things that intrigues us is what was the creative process? Like, right, how did you get there? And you know, and that's, so it's cool to just hear it. It's neat to talk about, and I think people are interested because like, you pick up a book like this and it's like, well, this is fascinating and novel and, and different and applicable. But then, you know, how did, how did she get there? Like, what was it like inside? Because that's also informative, I think. And there's a selfish, there's a selfish component too, just because, you know, we also like to know, because it's geeky and cool. It's geeky and cool. I love learning about creative process. Everybody's like parenting. Everyone does it differently. Yeah. Yeah. I just, I just find it just because, you know, at some point when we all go through the process and I, you know, hearing the challenges and the successes and all that, then I mean, obviously you just, you know that, you know, you're not alone when you, when you, when you go through those, you know, talking to talking about what's next on the docket for you, when now that this, now that this book is, is dropping imminently. So, yes. Well, remains to be seen, although I have an idea for another parenting book, but it's not in the D&D world. So I don't know what I would, like how I would write it. Like, how can I do that? But, um, put something more about coming into this world. As a late bloomer, I'm sure this will surprise you, but I'm not that young. And I wasn't entirely young when I became a mom. So, um, I feel like I have a whole different perspective on parenting through that lens, through like the, the, the, by a multifocal lens. My eyes are really bad right now. Yeah. I got my progressives on. So that's hilarious. Yeah. I got my progressives. That's like their new branding. They're now called progressives. That's why, that's why, that's why you see me do this because I'm like, I'm like, far away, up close. I have them too. I know. I have one tear that every time I'm walking down the stairs, I'm like, ooh, ooh, the stairs are like coming up to hit me in the face. They're not, you know, they didn't, they didn't nail the, the frame. You don't live in D&D. You're just right about it. I don't know. Oh my god. If it's a baby, it's definitely a mimic. There you go. There it is for you right there. I think, you know, that, that's an interesting area because because they're, you know, you're seeing, I, you know, they, they've been, there's stories now. The average age of parents is going up, of first time parents is going up. You know, I was, I was 30, which is not old, but not, not as, not as young as it was even like, the generation before, you know, I was 30 and 32 when ours were born. And I just turned, I turned 50 this year. So, which I'm still not over. But, you know, but I think there's, I think that's actually a very interesting topic because I'm seeing even folks that I, I knew who are just a few years younger than me that are, are in my age range that are, that are first time parents. And that's not going to change. And there was just an article I read today that was in, I want to say, it was a, it was research on at Harvard Business Review, or maybe something similar. I shouldn't quote that. Don't quote me on that. Where Gen Z, there's an increasing percentage of Gen Z that are considering just not being parents at all. I saw that too. This is, this is a newer thing. I mean, there's, this things can be tough these days. I had to just go back. If anyone asks, like, what's Shelly like, I'm just going to tell them she's progressive. It's just a really progressive person. And I'm not going to explain anything. Yeah, I just, I just, yeah. I really felt right. Yeah. Sorry. That's terrible. That's lovely. I'm surprised I haven't heard those. I retract that email. Yeah. And I'm actually surprised, Jason, you don't have progressives. So I'm the only one in our group in our age range. I know who they, if it makes me feel better, about two, because I just turned 50. And I don't care. I think it's actually really funny. I, I mean, we're obviously a podcast for audio only. I keep getting these, these like, six years ago, four years ago, 10 years ago on Facebook, you know, and every time it's like, Oh, I look older. And there's a lot more gray. Right. But, but other than that, like visually, like two years ago, I started noticing, because I read a ton and I love reading in the evenings. And like low light, it's like, I think I need to turn on more light. Oh, yeah. But, but, but, and I, I mean, yeah, I, I have to have, I mean, I've had glasses since elementary school. I have to have them, but, but nope, not yet. I'll turn it on to my vision. Oh, maybe, maybe it'll be spared. Maybe it won't happen. I didn't need glasses until I'm 40. And then my eyes just went to hell within 10 years. Wow. You had a good run. I had a good run. I had a really good run. And then it just all went to hell. And your glasses are really cool. Yeah, they do. These are, these are, these are, thanks to my, to my snazzy children. I wanted ones that were, that were different. Normally I do not wear light colored frames. These were not. Well, it wasn't a partial for you. Yeah, it was, it was, it was, yeah, this is different. But I figured, you know what, gray, light colored, the hair is going to go white. Jason's, Jason's brother's wife said, you're really going for the hipster look when I saw her. Wow. When I saw her. So I'm like, all right. Absolutely. I'll take that. She also said you look 15 years younger and I'm like, you're just. Yeah, she thought you were 60 though. Oh, that's good point. That's a good point. I think you, if you're going to lie about your age, you should absolutely lie upwards. Like, don't you want people to think you look really good for your age? I should absolutely be telling people I am 55. So. And they're like, wow, amazing. Oh, yeah. I mean, I own it. I'm not a James Taylor fan, but, but actually courtesy of, of the Orville. I really felt for this song. And I think it's some of the best wisdom or advice I have ever come across on aging. The sea, I actually haven't stuck up here. The secret of aging is enjoying the passing of time. And I look at that as a parent and it's like, yeah, 100 percent, right? 100 percent. Yeah. At first, I feel the need to just make it clear that I'm not 55. I was saying, I will tell. No, I know you don't know. I know you weren't. We know that you aren't. We know that you are. Oh, Jason was like, just own that. I'm like, I'm not going to own that. I'm actually not going to own that. I was at one. I knew that you were wrong with 55. No, our like three listeners who are in their 20s are like, what's happened? I don't understand anything. I guess I clicked on the, I clicked, subscribed on the wrong podcast. This is not what I thought I was getting on. So. Yeah, well, I think the secret to looking young. Is to have a child when you're already old, because it really throws people off when they're like, oh my God, your kid's only 11. Because they just can't imagine that anybody. You must be 34. Yeah. I mean, she has to be in her 30s. Her kids only 11. That's nice. That's the secret. You know what? Own it, right? Own it. That's Jason's new blind. Yep. Yes, young and hip. Yeah, Jason. I'm going to, I'm just going to ask Mody accurate. Thank you. As Mody says, own it. He sure. Yeah, oh, that's what's going to. Dyson mine. Dyson mine. Load on it. The front as Mody says, own it. Yeah, there we go. There we go. Yeah, that's going to happen. That's good. That's your retirement plan. Good. Shelly, thanks for taking the time. Oh my God. Oh my God. So good to see you. I was looking so forward to this. I don't think it's always a delay always. And this was the best episode for us to get back to recording again. I'm glad because we knew that this was going to be a fun episode to talk about parenting and D&D and to get back, talk about role-playing again. And I got to ask now, we didn't, I'm going to jump back in here. Since you're not, since you're not leading the D&... School group anymore, right? School group anymore. Do you game anymore? Do you still get a chance to game? I mean, I haven't played, I haven't D&D in months, but I have a lot of requests from the, a lot of the kids that I played with. Nice. To please put together another group. So it's possible that that my, my DMing career is not over yet. Not over yet. But I really only want to DM for kids. That's really cool. It's just, it's a whole, it's a whole different world. I always say it's as close to real-world magic as you can find. You get a good group of kids together and just watch them, just watch their little imaginations, just crack wide open. That's a beautiful way to wrap it. Shelley, congratulations on yet another book. It's so cool. May it sell and just an ungodly number of copies. We're going to have the links to... Oh yeah. Oh, absolutely. On the show notes here, it drops on November 12th. November 12th. Which is far from when this drops. So that's just in time, just in time for that all import election buying season. Followed by more things, yeah. Buy the book, tell your friends to buy the book, buy a few copies, get the Kindle. Yeah. I'm really curious to hear the audio. That sounds really, no pun intended. That just sounds really cool. That's, that's really neat you got to do. It was very fun, I will say. But also, I'm not going to, I wrote... There were so many words that were hard to pronounce, like D&D words. And every time I came across one, like, why, why did I write that? I'm me and the producer who's not a D&D player. She was always like, oh, I don't know if I can help you. I don't know what this word is. Now, is that going to be through Audible? You can get it on Audible for sure. Okay. Is it like with Kindle and then you could add the audio on the Kindle? Maybe. I'll have to look, I'll have to look, because I'm going to have to get that, because that'll be one of those things where I'd be able to listen to that in the car. Oh, I would be delighted to go on journeys with you. So, awesome. You'll road trip up to, you'll road trip with me up to see Jason then. There you go. Yeah. Kelly, thank you so much. It's so good to see you. Thanks. Oh, you too. Thank you so much for having me. [MUSIC] You know, it's funny, right as we were talking, which right at the beginning, and I can't remember if it was, I can't remember if this was during the recording or not, but as we were recording the intro, I don't know if you heard the sound or not, but I forgot to hit mute on my phone. So, there's probably a very faint in the background, and it's-- I did not hear that. That's great. And it is something that we actually talked about with her, because we explicitly said, "I will, every once in a while, I will forget." And all it was was my outside camera notification telling me that there was like, "Are that drove by?" It wasn't a good one. Sure, sure. So it was a mellower ding, but it was just funny, and I didn't get a chance to say something before we-- Yeah, so just to clarify that for everyone. So as we wander over to Audubon Court, we're going to talk about why Brad, and how Brad has become a grumpy old man. Yeah, pretty much. Okay. Get off my lawn. There it is. So, yeah, as we head over to Audubon Court, thank you, Shelley, yet again for joining us. Look forward to having you, again, whether it is for another book or not. And it's interesting, like Shelley was talking about in terms of being a mom and at what age you are becoming a parent, the age of being a first-time parent is changing. At this point in our history versus even what it was 20 years ago. So, and it's interesting to see it, and I think it will be-- I think there's a lot to be told about that. So I think, Shelley, I think you have a voice that needs to be heard on that. So-- Definitely. Everyone should run out and get the book, seriously. Yeah, seriously, it is a phenomenal book. And I had sent it to Angela, and I don't know if it is correlated or not, but I will tell you that earlier today, I heard a notification go off in Facebook and Facebook Messenger, and I got a message from my wife that was a post that she sent me that was 10 D&D sites you can visit in Lake Geneva. Oh. I'll be right back. I've got to make a call and see if something froze over. Hold on. Yeah, I know. That's what I'm saying. That she sent this to me. Oh, just for our younger listeners, Facebook is what old people use instead of TikTok. Yeah, it's called Boomer TikTok. There it is. Yeah, yeah. Boomer Instagram, Boomer Snapchat, Boomer TikTok, whatever you want to call it. Right. You use Twitter, we use better. Gone. Well, well, Twitter doesn't exist anymore. So in the way, in the way it's going, let's be quite honest. The way it's going, Twitter or X. Let's just say we're all waiting. We're all waiting for X to implode. Yes, that's right. Yeah, that's right. So and if you have a notice, there's been some changes in terms of membership there as well. You know, but as we head over to Audubon, we've both had very busy summers and we've both been away at some form or another. We've had some time off. We've had a couple. We've had family stuff. We've had family stuff. We've had some reruns because of it. And so we've had some time. Have you had time to have anything on your desk? I kind of know already. I'll tell you what I'm going to say is not what you're expecting. Oh, OK. So as we record this, and it's still going to be like another week or two until I'm done. So as we record this a bit earlier this fall, I am halfway through my reread of the Return of the King. So you know, I've been over this calendar. I don't even know if I knew that. So we've talked about this on the podcast before. It's been quite some time. Maybe I did. You and I had both picked up just gorgeous prints of the Fellowship of the Rings. And I bought it committed to the notion that I would reread it. I read I read the Lord of the Rings for the first time as an adult. I mean, I was already like well into grad school about 20 years ago. And so I've been doing it book by book. Just kind of accidentally every three months I picked up the next one. And so of course I read, you know, the Fellowship of the Ring. I read the two towers. And now I am just past the midpoint of the Return of the King. And so in another week or two, I will finish my second read of the entire Lord of the Rings, of the of the three books. Wow. And I will say it is it is even better now than the first time I read it. And it stuck with me that first time. But but this is it's so good. And of course it's tangentially relevant, if not more so, to D&D. Because that was the I mean that that was the motivation, right? For for Gygax and Arneson and the others of how how can we play in this world? And so so that's what I that's what's been on my desk. It's a it's a thick tomb of a book. It is a gorgeous print. This is the one that has Tolkien's original drawings and illustrations. The artwork. It's lovely. Yeah. And it's just it's it's just so good. But, you know, I find that if I keep reading until too close to bedtime, it's I get so into the world because it's so immersive that I fall asleep and I'm still thinking about it. And and it's just it's and that's fine. But like at this point, it's all about like traipsing across Mordor. And it's like, you know, these aren't like, you know, hey, Tom Mamadil stuff. But it's but it's it's so good. Don't you if you read too close to bed, doesn't it? Does it? Doesn't it intellectually stimulate you enough where it makes it more difficult to sleep? It can. I I usually don't have that problem. In fact, what I typically do in the past few years now, what I typically do is as I drift off, like kind of as I said, not quite, but as I as I kind of settle in and start to try to go to sleep, I will intentionally review what I need to be writing the next morning. And I'll let my mind wander on that free of distractions. And I find I find that that has actually aided my writing a bit. Like in the morning, once I've gone through all my, you know, I had my coffee and everyone's out and whatever. And I have my hour that I can refer back to what I was thinking before bed or before I went to sleep. But yeah, if I'm not careful, and if it's really well written like, like Tolkien, um, if I'm not careful, then it'll just, that's always been, honestly, I don't know, I was saying this on air, that's always been an issue with me with fiction. If I'm not careful, if it's really immersive, I really get into it. See, I get, if I get into something immersive, whether it is, whether be a fiction or nonfiction, and this has been a problem lately, because I switched from, I purposefully switched from fiction to nonfiction. I've been reading some, um, in effect, some biographies lately. Yeah. Thinking, oh, you know what, maybe I'll switch to some nonfiction and some biographies that I've had on my Kindle that have been out there, um, that I haven't been like, dying to read, but I've, that, but I've been on my Kindle. Um, but again, I've started reading them and I get into it and I'm like, all of a sudden, I'm like, oh, I went like 30 minutes past what I wanted to read. And now I'm, now I'm, now I'm up later than I wanted. And, um, so I've had to actually curb my later evening reading, um, on purpose. Yeah, it makes sense because of it. And I've had to actually like, like restructure, um, my evenings, um, related to reading and writing. Yeah. Yeah. Um, just to pull back on anything to, we went sideways on this, but, um, to intellectually, like anything that would would be too intellectually stimulating just because otherwise, um, there's just too much. There's just, there's too many things that I have on my plate that would just get me up. Yeah. Um, for me, you know, I've alluded to this and in on social media, but I found, um, just by chance, I don't know what I was looking up. I think it was under the guise because Trent and I have talked about, um, um, doing kind of a grand game of access and allies. Um, but I've stumbled onto the publisher GMT games over the past few weeks. Now, you know, we've, we've talked about this. This is by the time this comes out, this will all have passed, but at the time we're recording, breaking the wall again, um, you know, we're in the midst of this due date and revision and edit of, of, um, chapters for, you know, for an anthology, an anthology. Um, so I had put everything else on hold because, um, otherwise I want it, I just know that I won't be as focused as I want to be. And this is really my first foray into this. But, um, when I allowed myself to wander, I gave myself that time, I was looking at all these games at this company, these war games and strategy games. I mean, it's not just war games or strategy games or space strategy games. Um, you know, there's one called space core. Um, there's just phenomenal stuff. And, um, I just, I just have this, I imagine this, you walk into a store with this company's games on all these shelves and be like walking is like a seven or six year old in the FAO Schwartz. Um, yes, you know, that's, that's what I, or, or, or, or, or, I was sitting, I was saying KV or, or a Lego store at any age. Yes. Um, yes, I will say. So, I do have a, I do have, um, a select couple that are still wrapped. Um, and won't be touched as the time we're recording this until, um, I've met some self and post deadlines, but, um, well, let's be honest, you have, you have dictators as two editors who are imposing deadlines on all of you guys and gills. Yeah. Yeah, that too. But, but, but again, you know, I, I also, you know, yes. So, but I won't touch those until I, until those deadlines are met. Um, but I do want to get into those and, and I think it's an area. I just didn't realize how robust some of these are. And I kind of alluded to this in the past. I think this is an area that we'll probably, we'll probably peck at a little bit in 2025. Um, because it's an interesting one. And I think we've both looked into this a little bit and I've looked into it a little bit more in the past few weeks. And I think there's a real academic element to this that's fascinating. Yeah. Um, that we're going to investigate further. Yep. You heard it here first. Of course you did because it's just us, but yeah, we are definitely going to look into this. I think as we wrap up though, it just, just as a side note, it's good to have you back. We did. I did do that. Yeah. Thank you. So, um, it was fun. Um, loved having Katie back. Yeah. You did a beautiful job. And of course, Katie was lovely as all this. Yeah. And so lucky what, what more could I ask for being having to do a solo effort than to have someone who in effect is a someone who does broadcast television multiple days, five days a week. You mean, it's easier to work with people who know what they're doing. Yeah, pretty much. No, no, no, no, not knocking you. I'm just saying that that that someone who literally, if you think about it, she is brand. She's supervising every day. You texted me and you were like, I think she interviewed me. Yeah. Yeah. So that's nice. So very grateful for that. But I think one thing I did text you and say was the, the DNA of the show is our banter back and forth, whether it's adding on the third or more guests or just you and I doing this. So glad to have that back. Um, and we're, we're back to our. But, but don't worry, everyone, because it's probably congenital and it's not going to go to the next generation. If you have, okay, whatever, you make this, I'm going to make this all right. You asked. I am. Oh, great. Now I have to flip that switch on. Yeah. I, I, it's really good to be back. Yeah. It's, it's good to be back with you, Brad. It's good to be back with all of you. And I didn't use your, I didn't use your exit. Well, we can, we can, that you could have. We could, but, but we can fix that. Uh, thanks as always for listening. Thanks again to Shelley for everything. Uh, we, we have a bunch of things lined up as you can imagine for the rest of this autumn or spring, depending on where you're listening, moving across the coming seasons. Uh, with the, the holiday season in the very, very far distance, but still we know it's there on the horizon. So, as always, be well, stay well. We will see you in a couple of weeks. [Music]
