Join Phil Better on this week's episode of *Invest In Yourself: the Digital Entrepreneur Podcast* as he sits down with Devon Jones, a digital entrepreneur renowned for integrating psychology, social dynamics, and human behavior into his business strategies. Discover how Devon's eclectic background in music, video production, photography, and graphic design contributes to his unique approach to business growth.
From Devon’s early struggle with fitting into traditional employment—having held 38 different jobs— to his bold journey into remote work and digital marketing, this episode unveils the surprising power of delusional confidence in entrepreneurship. Devon opens up about transformative moments in his life, including the liberating realization that others’ perceptions don’t define him, which has since fueled his radical honesty and unprecedented success.
Dive deep into the art of learning and iteration, as Devon shares insights on developing connections and understanding triggers, both in personal and professional realms. From his innovative approach to consuming and challenging knowledge, to the importance of uncompromising boundaries in relationships and business, every takeaway is geared towards empowering you to become the best version of yourself.
Ready to break free from judgment, harness your inner confidence, and learn the secrets of continual growth? Don’t miss Devon’s invaluable advice, including how to get a free draft copy of his book, "To Speak Fiercely." Tune in now and start investing in yourself today!
Summary:
In this insightful episode of "Invest In Yourself: The Digital Entrepreneur Podcast," host Phil Better sits down with Devon Jones, founder of 7 Tree Media, to explore the intersection of psychology, social dynamics, and human behavior in the realm of digital entrepreneurship. Devon shares his unique journey from traditional employment dissatisfaction to becoming a successful digital entrepreneur. Listen in as they discuss the importance of radical honesty, continuous learning, and the entrepreneurial mindset needed to succeed in the digital age.
Timestamps:
- [00:00] Introduction and Episode Overview
- [02:15] Devon Jones: Background and Journey into Digital Entrepreneurship
- [08:30] Leveraging Psychology and Human Behavior for Business Growth
- [15:45] The Power of Radical Honesty and Building Confidence
- [22:10] Learning Through Iteration: Parallels with Daily Life
- [30:25] Importance of Connections, Triggers, and Setting Boundaries
- [40:00] Self-Care and Personal Fulfillment in Relationships and Work
- [48:45] Entrepreneurship: Taking Action and Proving Yourself
- [55:00] Closing Thoughts and How to Connect with Devon Jones
Guest Bio:
Devon Jones is a seasoned digital entrepreneur and the founder of 7 Tree Media. With a diverse background in music, video production, photography, and graphic design, Devon has honed his expertise in leveraging psychology and social dynamics to drive business growth. His commitment to delivering tangible results and his passion for continual learning make him a thought leader in the digital entrepreneurship space.
Key Takeaways:
- The importance of radical honesty in building self-confidence and effective communication.
- How understanding human behavior can enhance marketing strategies and business growth.
- The value of continual learning, iteration, and connecting new knowledge with existing beliefs.
- The significance of setting uncompromising boundaries in personal and professional relationships.
- The necessity of self-care to achieve personal fulfillment and success in entrepreneurship.
Resources and Links:
- 7 Tree Media
- Devon's Book: *To Speak Fiercely* (Free Copy Available)
- Podcast Host Phil Better's Website: [Invest In Yourself Podcast]()
Call to Action:
Don't forget to subscribe to "Invest In Yourself: The Digital Entrepreneur Podcast" on your favorite podcast platform. Leave us a review and let us know what you think! Visit our website for additional resources and to connect with our community of digital entrepreneurs.
Contact Information:
- **Host: Phil Better**
- Website: Invest In Yourself Podcast
- LinkedIn: Phil Better
- Instagram: @The Podcast Mogul
- **Guest: Devon Jones**
- Website: 7 Tree Media
- Email: contact@seventreemedia.com (for a free copy of To Speak Fiercely)
- LinkedIn: Devon Jones
SEO Keywords:
Digital entrepreneurship, Digital entrepreneur, Phil Better, Devon Jones, 7 Tree Media, Entrepreneurship, Business growth, Psychology and business, Social dynamics, Human behavior, Remote work, Confidence in business, Traditional employment, Radical honesty, Learning and iteration, Lego learning analogy, Personal and professional growth, Narcissism patterns, Connections in learning, Feedback projection, Trial and error learning, Personal boundaries in business, Self-care in entrepreneurship, Personal fulfillment, Collaboration vs competition, Success through action, Hip hop and entrepreneurship, Free draft copy of book, To Speak Fiercely, Entrepreneurial spirit, Proving oneself, Show notes, Podcast show notes, Complimentary copy, Free book, Marketing solutions, Balancing work and family life.
(upbeat music) - Welcome to "Investin' Yourself" the digital entrepreneur podcast. Join the podcast burger, Phil Better, as he interviews success for entrepreneur. Now make their living in the digital world. Now let's join your host, Phil Better, and your special guest. Today on "Investin' Yourself" the digital entrepreneur podcast. - Hello listeners, and welcome back to another enlightening episode of "Investin' Yourself" the digital entrepreneur podcast. I'm of course your host, Phil Better, the podcast local. And today's guest brings a unique blend of creativity, expertise, and passion for a result driven strategies. Joining us today is a digital virtuoso whose lifelong journey of creativity and curiosity has led him to massive the art of leveraging psychology, social dynamics, and human behavior to drive business growth. The background deeply rooted in music, video production, and photography and graphic design, our guest creative prowess is unparalleled. But what truly sets our guest apart is his insatiable thirst for knowledge and his unwavering commitment to delivering tangible results. While others may boast about their skills and interest, our guest cuts through the noise with a simple promise. To show you how he can help your business grow using little known strategies that have propelled some of the biggest brands in history to success for centuries. Rather than just talk the talk, our guest is all about walk in the walk. He invites you to reach out, hop on a call and experience firsthand how his expertise can transform your business trajectory. And if it's a right fit, you're ready to embark on a journey of growth and collaboration together. So without further ado, let's dive into the world of digital innovation and strategic growth with the one and only Devan Jones on investing yourself, the digital entrepreneur podcast. Devan, thank you so much for being here. - Thanks for having me on Phil. So we're going to jump straight into the questions. I don't want to beat around the bush. Why did you become a digital entrepreneur? - Partly because I don't deal well with authority. - Common theme, I see, I common theme with entrepreneurs. - Yeah, and I guess more so that I just never, I never fit in any of the other things that I've ever done. I've had, it took me 38 jobs to get to the point where I was like, you know what, this isn't working out for me. I have to do something different. I need to go somewhere and do something meaningful with my time because I never felt like what I was doing, that either one of those criteria. - I like that. I like, 38 is a high number of jobs. Like, we're probably in the same age range. We're about millennial, elder millennial type thing. I remember being younger, my father telling me, you have to stay with one job with the rest of your life. And having multiple jobs just looks bad on your resume. What was it like when you were getting to the 30s and people are looking, you have a lot of jobs. Like, what is that like? - Well, definitely say that I got good at getting jobs. - Well, it's 38, yeah, you're batting a hundred. - Yeah, you know what gave me a weird confidence that I don't think a lot of other people have. And to speak more to your point, if I don't think you were alone in being told that you had to find this one thing and then stick with that for the rest of your life. Now, I don't know about anybody else. And I don't want to speak on anybody's behalf. But when I heard that, you know, when 16 or 17 year old me heard that, I was terrified. There was no way in hell. I was going to do one thing for the rest of my life because I get bored of things so easily. And I demand a challenge. I work well under pressure. I need that. And I'm sure all of these things are relatable to most entrepreneurs who suffer from ADHD and procrastination and pressure based performance and that sort of thing. So that was like, I was experiencing this and not really having a way to describe it or use it or make it make sense. So I was kind of just floating through life and bouncing from one job to the next. And not that I get every 18 year old version of ourselves is like, I know everything, right? And I was so aware of that. Thankfully to my dad who was always kind of in my corner coaching me along all of this. But not necessarily that I knew it all. But whenever I was like working with somebody or on a team or, you know, I had to have conversations with managers and stuff like that. I was always like, you know, I don't think you're doing this right. So there was like this part of me that had to navigate this complex, you know, situation where you're constantly challenging authority and in challenging authority, you put a target on your back. And in some cases you don't last very long. I will also add though, out of those 38 jobs, I was only fired from two of them. - That's a little record. That's a, I have to say, that's a great record to have out of 38 jobs. Like when I heard, when you said 38 jobs, I was like, how many were they fired from? Like when you're not leaving a job 'cause you got that security, right? But learning that it was mainly 'cause you were having problems with authority that most entrepreneurs have 'cause we're like, we can do it better. We know how to do it better. Like this doesn't make sense. You're gonna take, if you will, changes or anything like that. Or like you said, your manager doesn't know how to manage. Which is always a fun thing to do. - Yeah, not very smart, if you will. Bringing up to your manager, saying they don't know how to manage. But what was your first foray into the digital entrepreneur world or into the entrepreneurial space? - I got it sitting on my shelf here. - Oh. - Good old-fashioned.com secrets, Russell Brunson. I'm sure a lot of digital entrepreneurs started their journey there. I have the whole trilogy. I think there's a fourth book that's coming. I also got the Jim Edwards copywriting secrets. I was so deeply indoctrinated into this idea that I could do my job from my phone anywhere in the world if I wanted to. Now I haven't quite crossed over the threshold of that in terms of like me being able to do that on a consistent or regular basis. However, I will say that I've reached the point where I have confidence in my ability to be able to find a client and work with them and provide solutions and get them what they need out of that marketing function that's in their business that they don't quite understand. And so as a result of that, I've been able to do things like travel just not as frequently as I wanted to and enjoy time with my family. I got a nine-year-old son who I home school. And so I get the privilege of me being at home and doing my job, but him also being here and occasionally we can break the rules and go do whatever we want for the day. And I think that that was the dream. That was the whole goal. And I being here now looking back at all the things that I went through, I don't know that I believed it, but that I think is another common theme in entrepreneurialism is that you have to be delusionally confident that the thing that you want is going to come true. - Yeah, we're a little delusional as entrepreneurs. We believe that we either know everything and know how to do it properly, even though we don't, 'cause we're all flying by the seat of our pants. No one knows what we're doing. Or you're just, you're pure delusion. You just, like you said, you just, yeah, I can certainly do this. I can reach this goal, no problem. We're all missing some wires. I wanna say the entrepreneurials 'cause we're dreamers. We are a dream for a better world. That's why we became entrepreneurs 'cause we wanna solve those problems that other people are having. Just like you, you solve the marketing issues that businesses or your clients have. I wanna get into, like you said, you believe in your confidence in finding a client, which is something I know most beginner entrepreneurs deal with when they're first starting their business, either as a freelancer or an agency owner or anywhere in between, how did you build that muscle? How did you build that confidence to be able to know, I'm able to get a client whenever I need to get a client? - There's a quote that I'm not going to tell you where it came from. I'm sure if you know this quote, you'll know where it came from, but you'll never out-compete me because I am willing to, or I am capable of, telling myself to do things I don't want to do and doing those things. And I thought that was so powerful. And there's this energy that you tap into when you realize to your point earlier, we're all just winging it. And whoever's stuck in that nine to five grind doesn't know that. They think that the people they are working for or the leadership that's around them has it figured out. And the reality is, is they don't, they are winging it just like you, but they're doing such a good job winging it that it creates this illusion that everything is safe and secure. But I learned when I was like super young, I think I was probably 10 or 11, and my dad was working for this company. He was a computer engineer fixing computers for a bunch of government contracts, registries, hospitals, that sort of thing. And he worked there for like 20 years or 25 years or something like that. Like he really put in the wrench time. And one day an order from, you know, the top comes down the pipeline and he loses that position because that company got bought by another company and they wiped out the entire Western division of that company and took it all over to the East. And so you can fail at the things that you think are secure too. You can fail at the things that you don't like doing. And so watching my dad navigate that challenge of being, you know, a company man to becoming an entrepreneur himself, who is now like a serial entrepreneur, he's started dozens and dozens of businesses and you know, he's done really well for himself. And that came later in my life too, watching him kind of do that. So there was this experience of like growing up, watching everybody think that this is a, you know, everything is what it is. And then waking up one day and realizing that it's not. And so well, if that's the case, what does that mean for me? And how do I take that information and use it for something? And so that kind of, I guess, sparked the curiosity, sparked the idea of like, okay, go do something, try something. And in doing and trying and doing and trying and doing and trying, as Alex or Mosey put it, you stack up this undeniable pile of proof that you are who you say you are and you can do what you say you can do. And so now I'm not, I don't necessarily focus so much on like, am I good enough? Can I do it? Will I make it? I've proven it to myself enough times in going through that like six months of no income, not knowing when the next client is coming in and you're constantly, you're on the grind, you're calling people, you're messaging, you're in Facebook groups, you're in LinkedIn, like you are doing everything and anything that you can possibly do to make something happen. And when the rubber meets road, all of a sudden you just, it just takes off and you just have to go with it. I remember watching, I don't know if anybody watches, this is familiar with like the hip hop scene, that's kind of a part of my music music. (laughing) - I always, you quite felt as the hip, the hype person on the show, on my podcast, I'm the hype person hyping up my guest, who's the main act. So yes, I'm very familiar and my audience is very familiar with my love of hip hop. - Perfect, well then I'm speaking to the right people here. There was a Netflix series, I can't, for the life of me remember what it was called, but it was a expose on hip hop artists, they're come up and they're success. And I think the first or second episode was logic. And there was this moment that was incredibly moving for me to watch because of how much I related to it. Although I can't say that I've reached the same level of success as him, but the relatability is in this. He's in this interview and he's talking about, the question was asked something like, "What's it like now that you've made it?" And you could see the gears turning in his head and he goes on this, into this exploration of like, listen, I just put my head down and I did the work and I kept doing the work and I'm still doing the work. And I don't know that I've stopped doing the work. And, you know, I didn't think I made it. And then you see the moment and I can't, this is the thing that like, I'm getting goosebumps just thinking about this, this moment that I got to share with this complete stranger of like, oh shit, I made it. I'm here finally. I didn't even realize it. I have all, I crossed that boundary or that threshold or whatever it is. And I didn't even see it happen. And then he breaks down, he starts crying and I'm crying and everybody's crying and this whole thing. And I'm like, man, isn't that the way that it goes? You just, you work and work and work and work and work. And then one day it pays off. But back to the delusional point, you have to be convinced that, or you have to be good at convincing yourself in some cases that, yeah, you're gonna get there. This, this plus this inevitably equals this. And so if you have this idea and you take action, right? Idea plus action equals forward momentum and that forward momentum equals destination of whatever XYZ, whatever goal you set. The difficulty, I think, though, in a lot of this and what most people miss, especially in the very beginning stages of thinking of becoming an entrepreneur is that you're in control of that. You're the one that sets the bar. And if you set the bar too far away or too high for you to reach, guess what? You can move the bar. No inviting is watching. No one knows where your bar is. The bar can be very low. Like for me on the podcast, right? For coming from a podcast or not as an entrepreneur, my only goal is to make sure I have a good question. Like my guests say, that's a great question or that's a good question or I haven't been asked that question. That's the lowest bar I have. If I can get that, I know that this episode is amazing. Obviously every episode I have because the entrepreneurs that come on share so many vast stories with the questions I ask. So it's obviously a great episode, regardless of if I hear that. But for my personal, you know, my ego, if you will, because we always have to placate the ego, if I hear that good question or that's a great question or an interesting question, like something that's abnormal from just when, yeah, so this is the question and the person just answers it without any kind of like horror or like, like pause. For me, I'm like, I didn't do so good. Like my bar is still low, but you know, it's like you said, I can lower the bar up at the bar or wherever it is. My bar was really high before. It's like every episode has to get a thousand downloads or else it's a shit episode. And then I realized I don't have the audience for that. Right? And lower that bar just slightly and no one will know, right? So I love that you shared that piece of advice that we can lower the bar. Like we're the only ones setting our standards. And obviously we want to have somewhat high standards, but we don't have to have those incredible high standards. Like, oh, I have to be as successful as Alex Hermosi or Russell Brunson or, you know, Elon Musk or any of these billionaires that have grinded harder and longer than we have or have had somewhat of a simpler path to the success that they have. And I love that you can see, we can set the bar down. Like your bar is really low, well, really low quote unquote compared to someone else's. But for you, it's at the perfect height 'cause you get to chill with your son. Like I think that's the, like your successful period of discussion in my book 'cause you get to work at home or, you know, travel if you need to, but also you can quote unquote brick the rules and have a fun day with your child. You're like, I remember growing up, like I never had that with my dad. My dad couldn't take a day off randomly or because if he did, he would lose money because he didn't, he had to grind every single day at his job. So I love, I think you're 100% successful. Like you've reached the goal. In my eyes, you reached the highest level of success with inside of family dynamic with having, being able to have your fun days with your kid whenever you want. - Yeah, that's such an interesting observation from the outside looking in because, and a unique opportunity I think for me because I rarely get that feedback, right? And I think all of us, like we rarely get that outside perspective. We collectively spend too much time coming up with that feedback on behalf of other people. So I will inject in my mind what somebody else is thinking about me. And I think that this is a part of, this is my weird nerdy geeking out on this. And I hope I don't go too far too deep, but-- - Oh, deep, oh, deep. - This one right here is a game changer. You're not who you think you are. And you're not who I think you are. You are who you think I think you are. - Whoa, okay, I wanna dive deeper into that because it actually kind of lends into my question about your study of psychology, social dynamics and human behavior, which is also fascinating. Like, I don't even wanna ask that question. I wanna go deeper into this. How did you figure out that way of thinking? 'Cause it's a very like next level thinking. 'Cause some people think, "Oh, it's how I think I am. "No, it's how this person sees me." But you're saying no, it's how you interpret what how other people see you. That is like, that is some mental gymnastics. Well, in a positive way, because you have to get to that next level. You have to parkour your way, if you will, to getting to that level of mental strength to see that. How did you develop that? - Which obviously, 'cause you're fascinated by the social dynamics of humanity, was it through that that you discovered this or was it just trial and error? - A little bit of both. And I think that this is luck, right? Luck is when opportunity and hard work come together. And so, the hard work that I had to do was going through a divorce and like almost losing my kid and my identity, my entire future, just like in overnight gone away, out the window. And that's not a like poor me story. It's a, this is a one very challenging experience that human beings have. And it was in that time that I dove a lot deeper into who I was and how I was showing up in the world and how that was affecting the relationships that I was having. And this was around the time that ironically, Jordan Peterson, he's a, I'm sure you know of him, very intelligent psychologist who decided to publish his university lectures on YouTube in full, unedited, uncensored format. And they were very poorly produced, like this is not high quality content. And I'm gonna tell you Phil, I binge watched every single video of these things, okay? Because that's where my head was at. So one of the things that I was challenged to do was to be radically honest with myself. And in that radical honesty, I looked back at the way I saw the world. I looked back at the decisions that I've made over time. And I did come to one very, very interesting conclusion. And that interesting conclusion was that I did this all to my damn selves. Yeah, and so is in that, you know, is in that repose where I was in this dark hole in my mind of like, I don't know where I'm gonna go or what I'm gonna do with this. And you know, you can't stay there. It's okay to visit these emotion towns, that's how I put it, but I can't stay there. My check out time is coming soon. And so I have to do something about it. And I knew it at the time because, you know, I got a son and I got responsibilities and shit that I gotta take care of. And I was terrified that, you know, somebody was gonna show up, child serves, is gonna show up in my house one day and just be like, you're not a good enough father. You can't have your son anymore. And so like, now I'm cooking and cleaning and doing things that I've never done for myself before. And I'm really starting to unpack and realize like, okay, so if I did this to myself, if I thought myself into this position, I surely can counter that by, you know, some other measure. And so here's what I decided to do. I said, I'm going to just be alone. I'm going to go and try to do this life thing by myself. I'm not gonna look for a mate. I'm not looking for a partner. I'm not looking for somebody to have around me. I don't even want friends. I don't want to have somebody influencing who I'm about to become. So it's a very specific evening. I decided I was gonna, I didn't have my son. I'm, you know, going a little stir crazy. Video games aren't cutting it. I gotta do something. So I go to the ship and anchor. It's a little pub downtown Calgary and I'm alone. And the bar is packed. And I go in and I sit down and I order fries and a beer. And I'm really starting to feel the anxiety of being a lowly, old guy, sitting in a bar by himself and everybody's looking at me, right? This is the narrative. This is the conversation, the dialogue in my head is, I'm such a loser. Everybody's looking at me and they're all judging me. And they're, you know, thinking all these terrible things about myself and yada, yada, yada. As I'm doing this, I'm like looking around the bar, like trying to catch somebody looking at me or something. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know where my head was at. But then I see somebody who sees me and I see them, you know, this, a flutter of something and they look away. And I recognized something there in their head. I recognized that they thought that I was judging them. And when I realized that they thought that I was judging them, I'm like, oh, it's not me. And then I looked around and it was like, oh, that person is thinking that. And that person is thinking it. And that person is thinking nobody cares about me. And that's not, that's not like, oh, nobody cares about me is sad poor little Devin. And that's like nobody cares whether or not I'm here further to that. And this is something else that somebody enlightened me to later. That guy who thought that I was judging him. So here's, here's the, you're not who you think you are. You're not who I think you are. You are who you think I think you are. I was thinking that that guy thought I was a loser. That guy was thinking that I thought he was a loser. So here we are both losers because we thought we were losers. And so she thought that I was awesome because I'm the, I'm counting this dude that can just go places by himself. Like boldly and bravely and confidently go to a bar by himself in order of beer. What kind of a guy does that? You don't see that, right? I'm just like weird creepy dudes, but. - We're keeping the creep level outside of this. We're looking at real people who are creepy at it. - Exactly. - It was in that moment that I was like, Oh God, it's not me. It's somebody else. And now I'm invisible and that's a superpower. And I always, always wanted a superpower. What can I do with the superpower? So I started going out by myself more. And I started just realizing like, Oh, I'm just floating around here doing all this cool stuff. And I can actually like enjoy it and not worry about what other people are thinking about me and whatever other anxieties that kind of, you know, came up along the way and in all of that, I did inevitably, I saw this girl at this place that I took my kid to frequently. And I kind of fancied her, but I didn't have the guts to like go up to her and say something to her. So I left that day and I was like, you know, I'm trying to like beat this, stop being a loser thing, right? So I'm trying to like, you know, be my own best friend. And so I give myself that raw raw speech. Next time, next time buddy, you're going in there and you're going to walk up to this girl and you're going to do this and that or whatever else. So I do, I go back to that place about a week or a week and a half later. And she wasn't supposed to be working, by the way. This is so interesting. She wasn't supposed to be working that day. I go and I walk up to the counter to go and like talk to her because I saw her there. And you know, this is even more interesting. You'll you'll laugh about this later. But some dude out of nowhere, I don't even know where he came from, just shoot right in between. He's now the guy that's serving me. And like, all my confidence just got flushed down the drain because like, I built it up, I built it up, I built it up and now it's like, damn. And now I got to talk to this guy, I can't talk to her. And so she like walked away. So I do my thing, I'm about to leave. I'm like getting my shoes on and whatever else near the front counter. And I, you know, you do that like one last like movie glance over your shoulder, you're choking. Hoping at her image. Dude, she dropped the hanker chief. I can't tell you how obvious the sign was. She like, for no reason whatsoever, like scrambles and grabs some paperwork and like walks up to the front counter, like not even to a computer, to an open space. And just like stands there, like fiddling with the paperwork. Like just yelling. There's a sign that's yelling saying, idiot, talk to me, please. Yeah, it's like the horns are going off with your lights and the sirens and I'm like, oh God, okay, I got to do it. I can't not. So I walked up to her and I very awkwardly said, hey, listen, I told myself last time that I was going to say something to you. I think I like who you are. You seem like a nice person. Do you want to maybe go for coffee? She froze. Somebody had to like, yeah, yeah, go get your card or whatever. So she goes, gets her business card and likes, you know, the rest is history. Funny enough, this girl wasn't supposed to be working today. She called Dibs on me like six months previous. If you first saw me come in so that nobody else there could kind of have me or whatever. So this was like, I wasn't even aware of this, which is so silly. But beyond that, the guy that shooped in and like stuck, he knew. And he was trying to date her. And so he cut me off to stop me talking to her that day. He later got, he later got let go for a different reason, but so it was in that, in those moments of like being alone and trying to like figure out why am I not winning? Like where's the missing part of this? And so yeah, the radical honesty, I'm not who I think I am. I'm thinking on other people's behalf. And what is that my business? I have no business thinking other people's thoughts. Yeah. So if I could just let go of that, I wonder, you know, how much bandwidth in my mind would get freed up and then what I could do with that. And when I stopped paying attention to myself and how I felt and I started paying attention to other people and how they felt, that's where the real magic and entrepreneurialism came in where I was like, oh, no, I have confidence that I can find somebody and help that person because I don't care about myself in this thing. I'm not like focused on whether or not I look good or I am professional acting enough or how I sound when I'm talking. None of those things matter to me. I show up as authentically and as truly myself as I can, which has saved me so much energy. I'm not like putting on an act. I'm like pretending to be somebody I'm not. I don't have to be professional. You know what I mean? Yeah. So I started breaking all of these molds and all these rules and it was in breaking all of those rules, Phil, that I figured out that we're all just out here winging it and making it up as we go. And it's in that confidence that other people trust. Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah, I know. Like, having talked with over 500 entrepreneurs at this point in my podcast and career, I fully understand, like, a lot of us, one, no one knows what they're doing. Everybody's playing make-believe pretty much. Yes. You need, your confidence in yourself has to be, like you said, delusional. Because everybody else is delusional, believe in their, the success that they have is, oh, not owed to them, but they've worked enough for them. They've done the hard work to get to it. So I fully understand where you're coming from. And I kind of want to touch on the psychology because it is a very psychologically heavy. And as someone who reads a book a week, at least, on both psychology and social dynamics, you must have encountered a wealth of new ideas and concepts regularly. How do you stay organized and ensure that you're effectively incorporating these learnings into your work? Is there anything that, do they just resonate with you? And you're like, okay, I like this, I don't like this. And that's how you incorporate it, or do you just incorporate it all? And then things that don't work just fall off of you. Something that helped me in learning very, very early on was learning how to learn. So figuring out one, just what, like, there's so many. And I'm trying to, like, bite-sized things here. So let's just to be, like, as concise as possible. The human mind does not work like a filing cabinet. And people we want it to, we desire it to, and we act as if it does. And you think about this in, like, the traditional education system and why it's fundamentally flawed is that it is, like, categorically trying to install information into your brain, A through Z. And we just don't absorb information and knowledge that way. It needs to, in order for us to have any level of interest, it has to connect with something else that we already know to be true, right? Or a belief that we have that isn't true. And we can be challenged on that belief. So there's a series of connections now that naturally occur. So I'll use this as an example. Right now, if I were to get up and walk out of my house, I would step out of the door and I would see the bench that's on my front thing. And I would remember a time that me and my son were, like, sitting on that bench, you know, talking about the rain. And, and so that, but none of that has anything to do with where I'm headed next. So now I'm walking up to the car. And then as I approach the car, I remember that, oh, I need gas because I was too lazy last night to go get gas. But we, so we're, it's like a trigger, series of triggers, right? And so these little things that we see remind us of other things. And so we form connections in these very, very weird ways. So knowing that that's how the brain works, I decided to opt for this idea of learning through osmosis. And I know that people talk about this all the time and say like, it's impossible and you gotta do this. You gotta do that, you gotta whatever. But I'll tell you right now, the whole reason like I understand marketing to the degree that I understand it is because I started here and I thought I understood it. And then I tried what I knew and it didn't work. And I saw where it broke. And so it was able to now go find out what I needed to fix the thing that broke. And then I could try again. And so I think about, like I watch my son build Legos and it starts with like, he'll come, I got it here. He'll come with like one of these and he called that a rocket, you know what I'm saying? Like this is a rocket, okay. And then he goes and he comes back and now this is a rocket. And then when he's done with that, he comes back with this. And now this is a rocket. And so you see this pattern emerge of iteration, of like you try a thing, it works or it doesn't work. And he tested these rockets for all different kinds of things. You're throwing it at the wall and you know, knocking it down the stairs and whatever else you could think of to test a rocket at nine years old. Very scientifically, let's throw it at the wall 'cause it stay together, it's a rocket. - Yeah, right, that's exactly it. - So that's how I started learning things. And I realized that like, okay, I'm gonna listen to this book and like, I'm not, the whole book isn't gonna resonate with me. I'm not gonna get it, I'll tell you right now, the 48 Laws of Power is one of the most challenging reads that I've ever had to endure because I just want, just give me the law and like how to use it. - Yeah, I don't need to know about Queen Elizabeth's third husbands, intimate relationships, I don't need to know that. I just need to, what's the law? Let me practice it, let me see if it works. You know, I need to give me the principles. I need bare, clean knowledge. I'll go out and I'll test and I'll do the things. So it became a challenge now of like, let me quickly consume what's in here and see if it connects to anything else that I know. And then when, if it does, excellent. If it doesn't, it's challenging one of my beliefs and why is it challenging one of my beliefs? And can I reconcile that idea and make it fit inside of the collection of beliefs that I have that I know to be true in the world? So I know it to be true that every time I flick a lighter, a flame appears, right? But sometimes a flame does not appear. So why is that? And now I have to like think about why is it? So sometimes when I create an ad image and I put it on Facebook and put it in front of 10,000 people, sometimes 10,000 people click on it. Sometimes nobody clicks on it, why, right? So now I gotta go and I'm looking at this guy's principle and that guy's principle and somebody else's idea and I'm trying to like marry and tie together all of the creative ideas of marketing that ever existed and then figure out why does this work? Why does it not work? And so that's the weird part of it is like I didn't understand myself. So I had to go out in the world and try to understand myself and that's where the psychology comes in. But when I did that, I started like seeing it in other people. What's funny about this is like my ex-wife's mom in a conversation they had said that I was a narcissist. And so she came back to me and said, "Oh, you're a narcissist." And I was like, okay, maybe that could be true. What is a narcissist? Let me go. So now I'm like a four books deep in the whole narcissist back hole of what does that even mean? Turns out everything that I read I saw in her and not that I didn't see some things in myself but then oh my God, I also saw some things in my parents and her parents and all my friends' parents and I'm like, okay, hang on a second. There are some patterns, right? And so it's like I tried to just approach taking in knowledge and not from the perspective of like I'm right and this guy has to prove me wrong. I come from the place of I don't know anything and I hope to find something in this text. I love it. And as I do that, that's where all the, now you start creating all these connections 'cause dot com secrets didn't do it for me. I still needed expert secrets and I still needed traffic secrets and I still needed to copywriting and I still needed to videos and I need audio production and like all these other things. So it wasn't just the one thing that like magically solved the problem. And anybody that's selling you a thing that is a one thing that magically solves the problem, newsflash, nope, that's not true. It's just like your son building the Lego, right? This is just one break. Inside the product or the building that you're building, it's a small thing that can fit either. It will solve the issue if you have 90% of the thing done and it's at 10% that needs to click into place. But if you don't have that 90%, that 10%, it's not gonna mean anything. It's just, oh, it's 10% of the 90% that you need to build to, you know? And I love how you're, you're like, if it works, it's good. If it's not, but you see the patterns, you see the connectivity that everything is in life and you're just trying to figure out how to just do it. And again, going back to the beginning, everyone's friggin' winging it. No one knows anything. We're just learning as we go. And I love that that's a central theme in your life. Like you're like, I don't know anything, but I'm willing to learn to become better. And that goes actually into my last quite, my penultimate question, I love that word penultimate. It seems so, like it's a $10 word. As an entrepreneur, you're constantly seeking results in growth, right? How do you prioritize investing in your own personal and professional development and what specific strategies or resources do you find most valuable in fueling your ongoing growth and successful journey? - Oh, this is a great one. And so you can check that box. - That's one other part of the question. - So check this out. It's not just for one thing. Everything that I learned in sales helped me get a girlfriend. Everything that I learned about my girlfriend helped me organize my business. Everything inside of my business helped me have a better relationship with my son. Everything that I have uncovered about myself in the journey of realizing how bad I am at sales and how to get good at it has helped me have difficult conversations with my dad. It's all connected. And the minute you realize that it's all connected, you can start applying. You can start taking the knowledge that you're getting, everything that you're earning all the way along the way, all the stripes that you're collecting and use it in other areas of your life. It's not that you go and learn how to do sales so that you can be good at sales for your business. It's that you go and you learn sales so that you can figure out how to have difficult conversations with people you love and care about. Being able to negotiate, this is a really great one. There's a book I read by Chris Voss, Never Split the Difference. He's a 30 year veteran FBI hostage negotiator. This guy really, really knows his stuff. And he uses this idea of compromise is a bad thing and compromise in its definition. And so let's get clear on the definition of compromise. Compromise in its definition is to meet in the middle on something where both parties have to sacrifice something for that thing to be true. So let's think about it in terms of this. I'm gonna stand here, I'm gonna ask you Phil, how tall is that tree? And you're gonna say it's seven and a half feet. And I'm gonna say, well, I think it's actually nine feet. And then we go, you know what? Let's just compromise. We'll say that it's actually 8.25 feet. But is it, it's not. And so do I win or do you win or do I both lose? That's the challenge is that we're okay. So if we're not compromising, then we're working together to collaborate on something. And that's different. Working together to collaborate on something is way different because if you are, if you are compromising or you are transactional in that way, it is competition. It is you versus the other person. And the only amicable solution is that you both have to lose. And a lose-lose situation does not equal a win-win situation. - No. - So how do we reconcile that? How do we figure out a way to work with each other? And that is to have uncompromising boundaries and having people that choose to respect those uncompromising boundaries. If you are a certain type of person in a certain type of way, you can behave in that way and you can do the things you're gonna do and then you can have the people in your life that are going to respect those boundaries. If you cannot set those boundaries, you cannot create that stuff, then those people don't respect you. And now you are going to over time resent them for the disrespect because they keep just getting what they want and you keep filling in the blank by saying, "Oh, you know, it's okay because I love them." Or, "Oh, you know, it's okay because XYZ." But that also works in business. If we're gonna split the difference on this, here's what's gonna happen. I'm gonna say, "You're gonna say, "Okay, I need you to help me make a podcast." And I'm gonna say, "Okay, Phil, "it's gonna cost you $5,000 to make a podcast." And you say, "Well, that's not good enough for me. "Can we do 3500?" And I'm gonna say, "Well, you know what? "I need business right now, so let's do that." But then here's what happens. I start doing the work and I'm not getting what I thought I deserved for the work that I'm doing. And then I slowly start to get angry with you for taking advantage of me. When it was me who made the decision, right? But I'm mad at you for taking advantage of me because I decided that it's okay that I work for less, which means I don't value myself, which means I disrespect it myself. And now how can I go through the world with any level of confidence if I continue to disrespect myself? - Jesus. I did not think I was gonna get a psychology lesson today, but thank you, Devian, for that Jesus. A great way of looking at investing in yourself. The reason I named the podcast that, right? 'Cause I wanna learn how to invest in myself. Now that we're coming to the end here and it's annoying 'cause I'm having such a great time. Like this is a great interview, a great podcast. I'm enjoying talking with you. However, I think this is an appropriate question if I finish the podcast on with your son being nine, he's nearly 10. I have your 10-year-old self here beside me and I wanna know what's one piece of advice you would love to be able to hand back to your 10-year-old self or to your 10-year-old son? - It's okay to be selfish. Here's why. Hypothetical situation, we're all sitting on a plane and the cabin depressurizes and the oxygen masks drop. What's the first thing that they tell you to do? - Put it on yourself before you help someone else. - Put your mask on first before you try to help somebody else. That analogy is true to life in all circumstances, in love. If you don't love yourself and your cup is not full, how do you expect to give somebody else love? In business, if you don't feel fulfilled in the work that you're doing, how do you expect to be able to do your job well and enjoy it? You have to be selfish to be selfless and that's a difficult thing. Sometimes to help yourself, you have to help others. That's the dichotomy. That's the duality. That's the challenge that it is in the human condition. But if it were me, 10 years, 10 years old and there was any piece of advice, that's the advice that it's okay to be selfish. Get what you need to fill your cup so that you can show up better in the world. - And you proved it to yourself and you proved it with the story about how you were selfish. You're saying, I'm not gonna find a mate. I'm not gonna go out. I'm gonna focus in on just figuring it out who I am. You were selfish 'cause you were not allowing the world to have access to the amazing person that you are. You were self-shly holding it in until you were ready and your cup, like you said, your cup was full. Oh my God, I love how just full circle. My God, I love these episodes. Devin, I'm gonna jump off the screen for a second. I'm gonna let you have the full stage. Please let my audience know how they can connect with you with seven tree media and how they can potentially work with you if they feel that they feel disconnection with you. So the forester is yours. - Yeah, so if you wanna work with me, you can find me at seventreemedia.com. My email is Devin@seventreemedia.com. And I got a ton of content out there. I just finished writing a couple of books. I got one that's on real estate marketing. I got one that's on podcasting. I got working on one that is about speaking fearlessly. And I wanna give that one away for free. So if that's the thing that sparks your interest or your attention, send me an email and I can send you a draft copy of that one. And I think that that would be the best way that I could provide anybody value that's watching or listening to this show. - I love it. Devin, I wanna thank you so much for coming on the podcast, sharing so much knowledge and so many moments for me to be like, what the fuck. Thank you so much for that 'cause this has been a very enlightening podcast for myself and I'm pretty sure for my audience as well. So I wanna thank you so much for coming on. - Thanks for having me on, Phil. - To my audience, as you know, the show notes below will have all the links necessary and including Devin's email so that you can get that free copy or that complimentary copy of his book to speak fiercely. I wanna thank you very much for listening. Devin, again, thank you so much for being here and as always, remember to invest in yourself. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music)
