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(upbeat music) ♪ Ooh, ah ♪ ♪ Under the scale ♪ ♪ Under the scale ♪ ♪ Under the scale ♪ ♪ Under the scale ♪ ♪ Under the scale ♪ ♪ Under the scale ♪ (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) That's an appropriate song to play for a fish podcast, such as "Under the Scales." I wanna have a friend tell a little bit about the background of that track and how it came about. - Well, Tom, that was Jay Rad, also known as Joe Russo's "Almost Dead," playing at Red Rocks last week. And we were playing a Grateful Dead song called "Slipknot." And out of "Slipknot," we just started doing the hits. - Then it, then it. - Those are the ones. And the crowd started to sing the appropriate lyrics back at us. - Wilson. - To "The Fish Song" Wilson. And what you just heard was that, that happened last week at Red Rocks. - That's amazing. - Jay Rad ended up playing Wilson and the crowd was right there with us 150%. - Unbelievable. - It was unbelievable. - That is a great intro to this podcast. - Hey guys, we're back. "Under the Scales" has an amazing interview with my pals, Scott and Andrew, coming right up. But first let me tell you about something happening at the Dix shows in Denver next weekend. I feel there's unprecedented anticipation built up for these shows, especially after the Curveball Festival cancellation. I know a lot of people who weren't going to Dix have now changed their plans and are descending upon Commerce City, Colorado in droves. So that's what I want to talk about for just a minute in a recent episode of my other podcast called "State of the Garden", a discussion about New Jersey's cannabis legalization effort which is currently underway. I interviewed a great guy whose name is Peter Barsoom. Peter founded an amazing cannabis edibles company called 1906 based in Denver. Coincidentally, Peter went to the same high school tray and I did, Princeton Day School. Peter eventually opened his company 1906 in Denver. But I interviewed him because he's thinking of opening up also in New Jersey. Peter and Osiris, our podcasting parent company, are talking about 1906 becoming a new sponsor on all Osiris podcasts. It turns out that Peter is a fish fan and also has a bunch of fish fans in his company. We are everywhere. They are also fans of my old band Amphibian. When we talked off the record about Amphibian not being completely inactive, meaning we're still writing songs and are thinking about releasing an album, maybe doing a reunion show. We got the idea to do a limited release of some of Peter's products next weekend in Colorado as Amphibian versions. I am so honored by this. So 1906 creates incredible edible experiences. It's not just here's some chocolate with this much THC in it. Instead, 1906 focuses on the journey. They have six different journeys you can experience right now and they're named. Go for energy. Pause for relaxation. Midnight for sleep. Bliss for happiness and high love for arousal. And soon present for focus and concentration. They combine the best marijuana strains and carefully adjust ratios and combine it with other plant medicines to achieve these amazing results. They took two of my favorites, Go and Bliss, and created a special Amphibian limited edition of these which are available in stores around the Dix Arena, starting today, Monday, August 27th, and remaining on sale until they're gone. Info on these stores can be found at 1906 New Highs on Twitter. You can also find info in the Bliss Lounge on Dix Lot on Saturday and Sunday. Combine the afternoon and I'll be there with Peter. It's a Moroccan themed tent where you can get out of the sun, get some fish inspired face art and I'll sign some 1906 boxes for you guys. Thanks 1906. Next up, we have something I've been giving as a gift to family members and they've been loving it. It's called Masterclass. Masterclass is an Osiris sponsor who offers online video classes taught by the best teachers in the world. Some of you ask me if I really use Masterclass and the answer is definitely yes. My favorite so far, I watched a bunch of directors and writers. I can't get enough of that stuff. So, Judd Apatow, Ron Howard, Martin Scorsese, R.L. Stein, the author, Aaron Sorkin, the West Wing screenwriter and also Newsroom, two of my favorite TV shows of all time, James Patterson, the writer. All of these people teaching you directly how they do what they do and how to emulate their success. Whether you're emulating or just interested in these people, Masterclass has created these amazingly high-death video classes. Each one is shot with cinematic production quality and offers on-demand lessons loaded with exclusive content you'll only find on Masterclass. You can choose from classes taught by over 35 masters and new classes are always being added. Whether you're pursuing your passion or developing your career, you'll find a Masterclass for you. Under the scales, listeners can unlock access to every Masterclass for one year right now for a very low price. Go to masterclass.com/scales. That's masterclass.com/scales. Thanks, Masterclass. Scott, you were talking about bulletproof coffee. He brought a thermos that actually looks like a flashbang grenade or something and I don't even know what it is. - I thought it was an Alexa. - Yeah, or, yeah, his own personal portable Alexa. (laughing) But today's out that it opens and there's liquid in there, but not normal liquid. - There's coffee in there and there's also a lot of butter in there, mixed in with the coffee and coconut oil. And that's a thing called bulletproof coffee. - And what does that do for you? - It gives you tons of energy and you never get hungry because of the sustainable fats in the butter. (laughing) - So it covers all bases, tired and hungry? - Yes, absolutely. I haven't eaten in months. (laughing) I get to live off bulletproof coffee now. - Really? - It's like just once a day or is it like for lunch and dinner as well? - I think it's supposed to be once a day but I do it all day, every day, kind of. Like I'll have like two or three of these every day and I can't get through a gig without one. - Really? - I bring this thermos. There've actually been nights where I've walked out on stage, I've forgotten the thermos backstage and I call Evan our tech over and I'm like, thermos. And he knows like I left it backstage and he runs backstage. - Wow, does he know the ratio? Does he know the formula in case you're running low and the gig, you know? - No, but that's a good idea. - The show must go on, right? - The show must go on. - You should know the ratio, the golden ratio. - We're gonna have to have a talk about this. - All right, well so I'm your host of Under the Scales. Welcome to Under the Scales. The Under the Scales studio is in Princeton, New Jersey as usual and I have two wonderful guests. One of them sort of functioning as a co-host and one of them is sort of the featured guest. You've heard the name Scott. We will give him a last name in a moment. But first, let me remind you that Under the Scales is a proud member of the Osiris family of podcasts. If you like this podcast, go to OsirisPod.com and check out other music and culture podcasts and soon our new subcategory, Cannabis. We're getting one or two new cannabis podcasts. Check out OsirisPod.com, thank you. And so I'm in the room here with Andrew Southern. Hey Andrew. - Hi. - And I'm in the room here with Scott Metzger. How you doing? - Good, good to see you. - Yeah, thanks for coming down. So Scott is, these both are friends of mine from a long time. Both of them were in amphibian and my band that started in 1999 and these guys were in the first, I call it amphibian 1.0 and in the second version I call amphibian 2.0. And amphibian went on to have 3.0 and 4.0 and finally went defunct in 2006. But you guys were in there for the formative years and you were also simultaneously in a band called Rana. And we sort of found Scott thrashing around in a jazz kind of trio called F-hole. I wanna talk about all this and play some of that amazing music, but also follow your amazing trajectory, Scott, which now has you as one of the main guitarist and you know, front men almost, right? I don't know exactly how that's at of J-RAD which is of course the huge grateful dead based band. - Right, Joe Russo's almost dead. - Joe Russo's almost dead. Yeah, so I'd love to go through that with you and also talk about some of the, you know, fun times we had on the way. - Sounds great. - Awesome. So how do we start? How do we start? I mean, I think I got to know you, Andrew, through Princeton Day School. - Yeah, I reached out through someone at Princeton Day School and was like, I'm gonna do this thesis and I wanna work with an alum. I wanna work with Tom Marshall 'cause that's a huge fish fan. And I was like, this would be great. - And then you said yes. - That's right, probably wasn't available. (laughing) - And then you said yes and then we ended up making a record in your basement. ♪ Maybe I was looking for my time ♪ (upbeat music) ♪ Stumbling through the gutter with the traffic rushing by ♪ ♪ Maybe I was waiting for I ♪ (upbeat music) ♪ Let it pass on by and kept looking for my friend ♪ - That's awesome. - Yeah. - And then at the time, and I'm gonna be a little muddy with this, we met somewhere around there. And I remember so clearly going to, what's a coffee shop? Small world coffee shop. - Small world, yeah. - Witherspoon Street. And it was F-Hole. And I went to go see you play and you were in the upper part with Trey. It was like you and Trey. - So that was the night that we met. I remember that night. - We were all there, right? And I just remember that so clearly being like, oh my God, this guy's amazing. And like Trey's here to see this guy. It was like so exciting. - Yeah. So F-Hole at the time, why don't you tell a little bit about that and how you got into F-Hole? Because F-Hole had my friend Matt Kohat as the bass player. - Yes, and you guys went to school together, right? - Yeah, so Matt was in, was he in my grade, was he in Trey's in my grade? Or was he one below? - I think it was close. Yeah, you guys weren't in this. - Yeah, I think he was one year younger. But he, you know, I'd spoken before about how musical Princeton Day School was. And Matt Kohat was one of, although he was an echelon above just the run of the mill. He was like a more talented and a more studious bass player who was like definitely taking it more seriously than everyone else. So every now and then he would wind up sort of co-collaborating with us in some way. And Trey knew him, he knew Trey, he knew me. But unbeknownst to me, he created a band called F-Hole and how did he find you, Scott? - I don't remember exactly how we met, but we were both, I grew up in a really small town in Jersey called Lambertville, New Jersey. And it's like a small river town. And Matt was living in Lambertville at that time. And I don't remember exactly how we met or, you know, when we first played together or anything. But I know that when we did play together, we both knew that we had a musical connection that made a lot of sense. And we started talking about bands that we loved both, you know, everybody loved the same bands. And he said to me that he had a friend who was living in Brooklyn who played drums and that turned out to be JP Wasiko. And the three of us, me and Matt drove into the city one day to Mott Street. And it's a, it was like a basement rehearsal space that JP had in the city. And I still walk by, I live in New York now and I still walk by that rehearsal space from time to time. - That's where it all started for you, kind of. - That's where it all started. Yeah, like we're sitting here because of that rehearsal space. - No question. - Yeah, no, exactly. You can draw directly. Like some people don't have exactly that firm root of their, you know, rooted in their timeline. - Right, you can't like pinpoint the thing, you know? But that's definitely, that was the room, you know, that was the room. And we just started playing and immediately we knew and we sort of went for a, it was an instrumental band. And it was very sort of experimental and. - Maybe we should hear a little bit of f-hall right now. - Maybe we should, if we can do that, it'd be great. - Yeah, let's do it. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Wow, that's great. So. - Thanks, dog. - Killer. - How old were you, by the way, at the time? - You were very young. - I was young. I was, I don't think that I was 20. - No, I don't think you were either. I remember you and amphibian and I don't think you were 20. - Maybe you were 20. - Just turned 20. - Maybe, yeah. - But you weren't legal to drink. - It was barely legal. - Yeah. - That's a great little solo there. Kind of showing your jazz sort of feeling, your jazz tendency a little bit. It was in there. It was in there from an early age, for sure. - Yeah, and how did that come about? Did you sort of have training in that regard? - I did. I went to college for jazz guitar. In high school, my high school was so small, there wasn't much to do. I went to the smallest public high school in New Jersey. I graduated with 28 kids in my class from a public high school. And I knew as soon as I picked up the guitar, I knew that that's what I wanted to do. And I also knew that I wanted to go to college. And I learned really quickly that if you wanted to go to college while playing guitar, it needed to be for playing jazz. That was like pretty much your only option. - Right, there's no like, you know, pop guitar. - There might be a lot now. - I don't know, Berkeley. I don't know what they do there. - Well, the weird thing is music now doesn't have guitar in it. Guitar bands are obviously still immensely popular, but the new music are no longer guitar driven. - It's true. - I think you're right. I mean, I was thinking about this. The popular reason that I can think of with guitar is like John Mayer and Muse. - True. - Those both of those bands have guitarists, right? Like sick guitar players. - True. - But you're right, like, generally speaking, you can turn on the radio. It's not a lot of guitarists. - Right, and if like Taylor Swift writes a song on a guitar, it's like an acoustic strummy thing. And it's not like hair band with a raging solo. - Right. - Stairway to Heaven solo, those are gone. It's kind of that left. - But then like the jam band scene is the total opposite of that. - It is. It's just going to a 20 minute trance and it's all guitar driven. - It's just, here it comes. - Yeah. - It's just like it's gonna be a solo. - Pretty much. - And you're ready to deliver that, right? - Yeah, that's why I'm here. (laughing) So Scott brought his guitar. So that's kind of F-hole. And then we met shortly after that. And I say we collectively, 'cause the three of us, like Andrew had said, you found Scott, like we were all in that room with Trey at Small World Coffee on Witherspoon Street in Princeton. I think I went with Trey because Matt Coha was our friend and we knew he had a band. And I think we had heard a little bit about his cool guitar player. - Okay, right. - Right, so we saw you. Did you know who Trey was at the time? Did you know that there was a red head that was causing a sensation in the... - I knew of a red head causing a sensation that I got to admit, I didn't know exactly who he was. You didn't at the time. - Interview over. - I was conceing everybody. (laughing) - Scott, you're Alexa, and go. (laughing) No, I can imagine that you probably didn't, right? I mean, that's pretty interesting. Was he kind of being a magnet? Like, were people... Well, you could tell, I mean, why I was playing, you know? So when, 'cause Matt leaned over to me and he was like, "Trace here." You know? And I, and you were like, "I don't care. I don't know how to feel about that." You know? (laughing) And so I was playing, but you know, and I kind of had one eye on the table where you guys were at from that point on. And I could see that people were coming up and like asking for autographs or whatever. They were just saying hello, yeah. - Yeah, this was pre-selfie back when autographs were a thing. - That's right. Totally. Nobody was. (laughing) So then somehow, I mean, not to take the spotlight off of Scott, but if I remember my timeline, Matt and I kind of got summoned by Trey up to Vermont. And the idea was that we were gonna form a band called Utahk, U-T-A-L-K. And so Matt and I drove up and we kind of, we practiced a few songs and there was another guitarist there and I kind of don't remember who that was. So it was like the four of us were gonna be a band and the chemistry just, it was one of those. It honestly, one of the first times ever with Trey where everything just sort of felt flat. It just, nothing worked. Our song sounded like shit. Everything sounded like crap. There was no chemistry with any of the members. And Matt and I, as we drove home, we said, "You know what? "That's never gonna happen. "We're gonna have to form our own band." And right then, is when amphibian began. - It was a blessing that it didn't work out yet, right? - Yeah, and I said, "Well, what about, you know, "how do we replace Trey?" I mean, that's like our big guitarist. That's our big thing. And he's like, "Well, I got a guy." And that was you, Scott. - Big shoes. - Yeah. - Big shoes to fill. - Yeah, man. And you did, I mean, we had a really good band. Let's hear a little very early amphibian right now. This song is called "The Onion." And I think it was written by me, Matt, and possibly Scott. And JP's in there. And Scott's solo at the end is kind of, you finally get to the prize, which is sort of the outro, which is what we're gonna play right now. (gentle music) ♪ Into the drain ♪ (gentle music) ♪ Into the drain ♪ (gentle music) (gentle music) (gentle music) ♪ Into the drain ♪ (gentle music) ♪ Into the drain ♪ (gentle music) (gentle music) (gentle music) (gentle music) (gentle music) (gentle music) (gentle music) ♪ Into the drain ♪ (gentle music) (gentle music) - Are you tired of being tired? Are you ready to get eight hours of unbroken sleep? If you answered yes to either of those questions, today's sponsor may be able to help. Sunset Lake CBD is a hemp farm up in Vermont, making CBD products designed to help you get better sleep. As a former dairy farm that produced dairy and cream for another Vermont staple, Ben and Jerry's, Sunset Lake CBD is no stranger to quality ingredients or standing behind their products. In fact, Sunset Lake tests every product for potency and purity and puts the results online for all to see. They'll even mail you a copy with your order. That includes all their nighttime products. Sunset Lake carries gummies, tinctures, and soft gels designed to help you get to sleep gently and naturally. I'm someone who tends to think a lot when I lay down to go to bed. So often I'll take a sleep gummy about an hour before I need to go to sleep. The combination of CBD, CBN, and melatonin really helps me fall asleep right when I want to. Sunset Lake CBD is offering our listeners 20% off all orders. Visit sunsetlakecbd.com and use the code undermine at checkout. Sleep sound knowing that they stand behind their products. Sunset Lake CBD, farmer-owned, Vermont, grown. - Hi, this is Henry K. Host to the number one music history podcast, Rootsland. Come with me on a journey to Kingston, Jamaica, where we explore the world of reggae music and the untold stories of some of the genre's greatest legends, from the ghettos and tenement yards where the music was born, to the island's iconic recording studios. We are so excited to team up with Osiris Media, the leading storyteller in music. Because as you'll hear, sometimes the story is the best song. - Awesome, I love that. That kind of gives another idea. And that one still is sort of F-hole-sounding. - It is, yeah. It's funny, I remember when we recorded that song. Like it was last week, like the exact moment. - Really? - We were up in the, yeah, we were up in the house, up in the little, the attic. - Let's also play just now, it occurred to me, that it kind of might make sense. We were sort of kind of touring with the Seras. You sort of had a little brief romance with Stephanie. - Right. - I love the Seras. It's kind of a song, and it's a very cute song. - Oh yeah, in case you didn't know it. - In case you didn't know it. - Let's hear a little bit of that one. - A little lip of that one. ♪ There is a barn ♪ ♪ In Central New Jersey ♪ ♪ That's where ♪ ♪ Where I met my love ♪ ♪ Where the children play all day ♪ ♪ And the old folks waste their way ♪ ♪ And the stars play in the skies up above ♪ ♪ When I first met her, it was 98 ♪ ♪ She was looking good, she was looking great ♪ ♪ Well little Anna sat on big Tom's knees ♪ ♪ Her voice said hello, I'm Stephanie ♪ ♪ And that's when it all began ♪ ♪ This one where troubles turned to sadness ♪ ♪ And I could stop singing my blues ♪ ♪ Clearly I've been thinking a lot ♪ ♪ About that Stephanie and Scott ♪ ♪ And in case you didn't know it ♪ ♪ That is me and you ♪ ♪ 'Cause you didn't know it ♪ ♪ That is me and you ♪ (upbeat music) - Man, that brings back so many memories. That's a happy song. - That is a happy song. - And you even said little Anna sitting on big Tom's knee, and that's my daughter at the time was little, now she's 24, so. Not much me sitting these days. Yeah, good stuff. Yeah, that's a lot of fun. So now simultaneously, or let me just get the order correct. You too had a band with two other friends. - I had a band with two friends, and I was playing guitar. And then that fateful night at Small World is when I saw Scott, and I think it was like, like the next day or soon after that, when I was like, I'm not playing guitar anymore. Like this guy should play guitar. I'm gonna play bass. And that's how I remember it. I might've been much longer than that. - It might've been that, yeah. - But then you came and played with us. - Tell the name of the band. - A band's called Rana, R-A-N-A. And we, you joined the band, right? For some gig or something. And I've been in the band ever since. - Yeah, I think I just came inside in. - Yep, that was it. - That was done. - Somewhere, and then we were a band for like eight years. - Yep. - From that day on. That was the audition, and I guess I made it. - You passed the audition, man. - And I very quickly tried to emulate Matt Cohut. Like on bass, you know, just to play, like 'cause he's my role model for bass playing. So I'm gonna try and keep it simple and keep it solid. And that became my role immediately. - Right, so Rana existed as amphibian existed. And the only reason that kind of could exist, coexist, was because amphibian's touring schedule was incredibly sparse. And that was sort of the complaint of subsequent versions of amphibian, as we'll get into, was that the players wanted to take the band and go pro. And meanwhile, I was sort of, you know, young family, young kids, a wife that didn't quite want me to go to the music route. And I was also tethered to a desk in a computer job. And-- - We were in college. - You guys were in college, that's right. It wasn't 100% sure that you guys could go on tour either. So, you know, we played on weekends, and when we could and where we could. And it kind of, Rana and amphibian 1.0, co-existed there for a while. - Yes. - Let's hear a little Rana. Do you guys know a song offhand that you wanna play? - I've got a clip of "Bicellar Break", which is off of "Subject to Change", which was like our second or third record, I think. - Cool. - It's a good one. - Let's hear it. ♪♪ ♪ It's a heart that'll not just celebrate ♪ - That's a great song, you guys. And Scott, that finally sounds a little more rock than jazz. - I was getting there. - You're getting there. - Yeah, these guys showed me the-- got me into more rocking stuff, taught me a lot about it. I wanna play a couple more amphibian 1.0 going into amphibian 2.0 songs, or at least a few clips from there. Now, the thing that happened that turned amphibian 1.0 into 2.0, do you remember Andrew? - The addition of Chris Harford. - Yes. - And that changed things in many ways. - Chris is a big personality. And I just remember we all sat around the band that was already there and then Chris was there and he kind of went-- I remember he was running it and he kind of went to each person and was like, "Okay, so I get it. You're the piano guy. You write the songs. You sing. You hear the lead guitar player. You hear the drummer." And he turned to me and he's like, "I don't know what you do." - Oh. - Oh, man. And I really, like at the time, really threw me back. It's actually one of the most awkward moments of my entire life was that moment. I remember we were sitting on a picnic table or something. And I was like, "I don't know what to do. I play guitar, but is that not enough?" It was like it really set me off for a little while. - It's got funny. - That's a good example. - Scott, how about you? Do you have similar, like, the change that occurred? - That was definitely a change. Yeah. - Well, Chris came into it and he had a track record. He had been with Elektra and I think that he had been in the music business, which can be a little full contact. And he brought a little bit of that attitude to our thing, which our thing did not have that up to that point. - There was no attitude. We all loved each other. And everything was like, you know-- - Everything was just awesome. - It was awesome. - So cool and awesome. - Yeah. - Like as far as we can say. - And it was, you know? - That's a good way of saying it. There was a little bit of the attitude that Chris had sort of some cynicism from, I believe he got signed possibly by Sony. He had a band called Three Colors. - He was on Elektra. - Yeah. - Or Elektra. And yeah, and then he got unsigned. Something weird happened. I don't really quite know that history, but suffice it to say, Chris came with a huge catalog of music. And Chris had was really good friends with the ween guys. And there was sort of like a cynical sort of anti-music industry attitude a little bit that I hadn't really detected before in anyone. And one thing that did happen was immediately we had a following. It was cool. - Right, right. - And so we suddenly, you know, we played in New Hope, John and Peter's, and packed that place, and it was a great gig. But what was happening, the band a little bit became the Chris Harford band, right? And that kind of happens, Chris had this concept of the band of changes. - Right. - And Scott, you've been a big member of that ever since. - Yeah, for 20 years. - Ever since. - I mean, I'm playing with him this weekend. - Yeah, and my friend Matt Kohat can be his bass player. The concept of the band of changes is there's musicians out in the world, largely concentrated in this New Jersey area that know all of Chris's catalog, all of it. And anyone can jump on stage and be in that band. And Chris, with that modus of operation, kind of came into amphibian, you know, with kind of a take charge attitude a little bit. And sure, yeah, we'll do some of your songs kind of thing. But really, we got to learn all these. And so the stage was set for friction to occur between me and Chris, right from that first moment. But let's play a couple live clips from amphibian when Chris showed up. We have Live at the Stonepony, a couple of good songs. Here's a little bit from a song called Back to Mesopotamia. [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] So that was like one of our, you know, rockin' songs that we would play, kind of toward the end of the show. And that was always a good one. And always got people up and dancing. Right. Yeah. And that was fun. What year are we at now with Chris coming in? Like, because I forget, it's like 2000? Yeah, something like that. Yeah, yeah. I also just want to say like, as we were talking about this, like Chris also sat down like me and the guys in Rana. And like, I remember this very clearly putting on waterboys. And the fisherman's blues and being like, "He has haven't heard this before, have you?" And just schooled us like a couple nights in a row, just like schooled me on so much hard, like awesome music, you know, that I needed to hear. Yeah. So like, there's a flip side to the story, which is like, you know, it's keeping things brutally honest, but also like passing on this sort of heavy New Jersey rock knowledge, you know, to the next generation. No question. Yeah. I mean, I mean, the reason that Chris had a following was because he's an awesome musician. And his brain, his catalog of music is incredible. And I didn't know half the bands that he knew or-- Yeah, Chris has taught me more about music than I think anybody that I've ever met. Right. And so there's like, you know, he commanded respect, but deserved it also. Right. And so probably wasn't in the right band, right? And Phibian was-- Maybe that's maybe that's the-- That's probably the problem. Yeah. Like the one thing that I've learned from all the guys that I've played with who are like real, sort of like visionary musicians or whatever, have a vision of what music should be, is that they are big personalities. Yeah. Like that's the one thing. And they can be very different types of people, but they all share that in common, is that they're like-- They don't spend a whole lot of time worrying about whether they're creating friction amongst band members. Right. That's not the priority. That's not the priority. That's not the priority. Right. As far as they're concerned. And I think that, you know, Chris has no exception to that. You know, he's the same way. Absolutely. So we toured a bit, we played Stonepony. That was one of our regular gigs. And then if you had to say another regular gig for us, it was up in Burlington. It was the higher ground, of course. Yeah. Yeah. So Trey's brother-in-law, Kevin Stacer, opened a club in Berlin-- Well, actually in Winooski, Vermont, right across the river from Burlington. And it was in a big warehouse. And it was really cool. And he rapidly, to his credit, put Burlington on the map. Normally people, bands would tour up to Boston and then take a left and go somewhere else. Right. Now they had to go all the way up to fucking Berlin. Yeah, it's a major stuff. They had to. It's a major stuff. It became a major stop on the East Coast. And to his credit, higher ground is still active today. They moved to a bigger venue. They did a year ago? Yeah. They upgraded. They became a much bigger room. You can take down a wall and have a really big concert in there now and stuff like that. But that was really fun touring. And every time we went up to Vermont, there was always sort of the hint of a member from Fish. Sitting in. And it went down. It also happened. It happened. It happened. It happened more than once with Fishman coming in, playing drums. It happened more than once with Mike joining us on stage. And it happened more than once with Trey joining us. Now, Paige came to almost every show. But I don't know if he ever came and sat here. I don't remember him playing. Yeah. I don't think so. Sorry, Paige. Maybe I didn't make room for him on the keys. Right? If I had that one little piano. He saw your prowess. Yeah. He was always like, you know what Tom's got? He was right. Tom, you did. He got it. I remember when Trey came because he played your white strat. No, he played Chris's red strat. Oh, maybe one time he played my white strat. I remember it was a strat. And I remember thinking like, oh, that's not his normal guitar. Like that's going to be like, I've never seen him play like another guitar. I remember that we played farmhouse. And me personally, like a selfish of me. But like the thing that I really remember is at the end of it, we both started soloing at the same time. But I don't remember anything about the music at all. The one thing I really remember is when he walked out on stage, I've never heard a crowd really before or since. Like it was almost scary. Like how excited everybody is. Everyone was incredibly excited in this capacity at the time of higher ground. We sold out, which was pretty cool. I think it might have been six or seven hundred people. Yeah, it was a small play. I mean, it was awesome. Oh, yeah, totally. And I'm sure that that was probably, you know, the smallest space that he played in a while. He played a scene in this guy. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I remember I turned around at JP when he was walking this. When Trey was walking out, I turned around to a drummer JP. And he had his fingers in his ears. I mean, it was so loud. It was loud. Yeah, yeah. That was cool. Now, do you guys remember anything about any touring, any amphibian stories? Anything interesting happening? The one thing that one story that I do remember is that I forget where the venue was. I think it was upstate somewhere, but we were playing. And the opening act was a band called Slipknot, which, you know, Grateful Dead fans know there's a famous Grateful Dead song called Slipknot. What the rest of the world knows is that there's an insanely popular heavy metal I mean, I don't know if you'd even call it heavy metal. I don't even know what you call it. It's whatever it is, it was weird. It's so over the top. Yeah. And it's almost like guar meets insane. That's a good thing. Exactly. That's sort of it. Right. Right. Because they all like sort of like dress up and they had masks, right? They have like mad masks, like mad max beyond Thunderdome. Kind of look. And so did the audience. Apparently, the fans dress up like that too. So I remember it so clearly that like in my mind, there were hundreds of kids dressed up like mad max characters. At our fucking show. At our show. And they were all sort of just like wandering around the parking lot, looking super sad. Yeah. Because when they got to the gig, they realized it wasn't their slip. Yeah, it was just hippie music. It was just a, yeah, right, right. Which is probably like the worst thing that can happen to them. Yeah. Like beyond disappointing. Just like heart, like heartbreakingly. Maybe country music would have been worse. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe. This was, I don't know, neck and neck for sure. But that was, that was hilarious. You were talking about upstate. We always had some sort of adventure upstate, right? Where like we were all punchy from being on the road. It was like often like we were either on our way to higher ground or on our way back. Yeah, that was sort of the home base. And we also played, was it something, it possibly was called the Odyssey in Connecticut, where we had our friend Brendan O'Neill doing sound and I guess had turned it up too loud. That's right. And a few gentlemen from the police force came by and basically gave us like a one-minute warning with the guy standing there behind Brendan with his arms folded, like turn it down or else. And then turned us off. Do you remember that? No. With no warning. I don't remember that. Yeah, I remember that. We kind of like, we're like, we're playing one minute and Brendan was like flagging us like, then I was like, yeah, yeah, whatever. And all of a sudden, boom, there's no sound. That was pretty intense. I remember three of us went out and did an encore. Yeah, we did a little harmony thing. Yeah, with just you playing acoustic guitar, no, no mics or PA or anything. We just walked the end of the stage. Terrible thing about hell. Was that what I mean? Wow, yeah, yeah, we had a little Olivia's pool, maybe something else that we had ready to go. But I don't remember that and that is an awesome story. Yeah, I remember Chris got mad and just stormed into the back and I don't know what he was doing right there, but he was pissed. That was pretty interesting. We used to play bug. I think we were the first to play bug, right? Oh, yeah, there was. And we were playing it all fucked up and then I remember Matt Kohat being like, guys, it's nothing on the one. So it's like, one book, right? I remember that so clearly like taught the band, like how to do it, like, bug, don't need it, right? And then ever since I've heard that song being played by fish and stuff, always think of it like, one, two, you know, like, or one and that anticipation, like that's the key to that whole song. It is. And he just explained it so clearly. Yeah, yeah, that's great. It was kind of nice every now and then like, you know, some a couple of people really didn't know music really well. And a couple of us were a little bit more fumbling around like me and it's kind of nice every now and then having someone like Matt tell us. M.D. Which way to go? M.D. Yeah. So Scott, I'd love to talk about sort of like the next phase in your music. Because at that point, amphibian ran its course. And we all kind of went our separate ways. And honestly, to my detriment, I lost track of you for probably more than 10 years. And in that 10 years, you've been through a lot of really cool bands. Really busy, yeah, yeah, absolutely. How would you characterize sort of like, could you talk us through that and play some of that? Yeah, well, I mean, first of all, you know, when amphibians not playing, Rana, which both me and Andrew were in, we gave it a shot. I mean, we went on the road for six years, five years. For a while. Yeah. Around the country many times. You got a really, you guys had something going with wetlands for a while too, right? Yeah, we were sort of the last or one of the last bands to kind of come up through the ranks. You know, you start the basement and then you start playing, what is it? Thursday nights or something upstairs and then we would play for a long time. So I remember so many times getting leaving that venue when the sun's coming up. It was just like this great thing. And then 9/11. So what is that, 2001, right? That sort of shut that place down. We were looking for a home and we were also touring. So it was an interesting time. And when the wetlands closed, some of the staff came with us and became like the booking agent at the wetlands, when the wetlands closed, he became Rana's manager. Was he Snuffarowski or something? Jake Snuffarowski. Yeah. There were a bunch of guys that have gone on to do other stuff there. There were people whose names I knew from back then who now I see out with. Yeah. We were like our thing, and I take to talk about it in the past, but it's relevant. Like a rock and roll jam band. So when wetlands closed, we pretty much jumped over to CBGBs. You know, like because that was like, that's a rock venue. That's a legitimate, like a mono, you know, PA, like just a rock and roll venue where a lot of our heroes have played anyway. Yeah. So to take improvisation and bring it there made a lot of sense for us. And then we would play that kind of venue all around the country. So places, what was the place in Birmingham? The Nick. The Nick in Birmingham. Yeah, there was rock rooms. Real rock rooms. Yeah, totally. And we played New Year's Eve. We were like the house band for New Year's Eve at CBGBs. Couple of years. For like the last three or four years, that place was open, I think. On the drive down here, I was thinking about the story that I'm just going to give to you. We're at a festival at the Peach Festival or something like that. No, it was Langorado in Florida. I think it was the first Langorado festival in Florida. Well, I just were on stage. We're playing at like three o'clock. You know, James Brown is going to headline it like nine. There's no reason for anyone. You know how these things go. Like those people don't show up until like, you know, 70, yeah, exactly. It's three o'clock in the morning or three in the afternoon. It's the sun is beating down. There's a good crowd, but like when we're playing our rock music and the look over and James Brown is on the side of the stage. And I'm going to let Scott tell the story because he's got ownership of this one. Well, I missed it. I missed seeing it, but Andrew came over to me while we were playing. And he was like, this is the craziest thing. This is unbelievable. I can't believe this is happening. And I didn't see what was happening. So I was like, I had no idea what he was talking about. You thought he was like, he's like, you're amazing. You're amazing solo. Andrew's really into it, you know, that's all I knew. And so we finished packing up and Andrew came over to me and he was like, that might have been the coolest moment in my life. And I was like, what do you, what? Like it was good, but I didn't think it was that good. Yeah. And he's like, oh man, you know, you missed it. James Brown was on the side of the stage while we were playing busting full on sex machine dance moves to our set to our music. So we made James Brown like do his thing. We made him happy. That is great. And then we'll keep going back and forth. Oh, no, I just the whole setup is then like, didn't you like run into him? Like the way I remember it is that there was a guy that a security guy came up to me saying that he would like that Mr. Brown, you know, and it was a clearly a security guy. He was in a three piece suit and everything and he had an earpiece in. And he said that Mr. Mr. Brown would like to meet us. Wow. And we ended up going backstage and there he was. We met the man himself and he was like super complimentary about our set and like telling us how much he liked our thing. That's fantastic. That was amazing. And it became like it was like just like classic James. He was just as James Brown as you want him to be. You know, he was like, oh, that guitar playing. He's like, it's frightening. Frightening guitar player, you know. And then it got into like, you know, because we were in Florida. It was so hot. And he was like, oh, it's so hot down here. I need a shower, you know. Just full on like remember, it was like blue hair. He had full on weird dye jobs like blue, right? Yeah, he was sweating dark. You know, like it was just so awesome. Such a great moment. It was awesome. I mean, you know, I don't love it. I hope you guys got a picture. We didn't get a picture. Damn it. And it's one of like the biggest regrets of my life because that that's going to be tough to top. I mean, that might be the greatest compliment any of us will ever get, you know, in our lives like. That's a great one. Yeah, that's a great one. That one's hard to hard dig. Well, I mean, always keep going because you might get another one, you know. That's right. That's right. So we should be twering around for a long while. Yeah. And then the band sort of like slowed down. Yeah. We can not go into that. And then you went on to do other awesome things. I stayed busy. Yeah. I mean, well, after Ron and Stop playing, I wasn't quite sure what to do. And I got an offer from a band on the West Coast called Particle, which was a very popular jam band. Yeah, I remember hearing about that. Yeah, they were, they were, they were, they were thing. And I went out there and that didn't exactly work out. It lasted about a year or so and I came home. I kind of came to the conclusion I wasn't, I'm not made for the West Coast, you know. You came in there with an East Coast attitude, didn't you? I sure did. I can't help it, Tom. And when I, so yeah, for my trajectory, like when I, when I came home, I, I took a few years and I actually just taught people how to play guitar. So I've sort of burned out. I basically been playing music for 10 years at that point. Pretty much nonstop and, you know. Kind of didn't have a big break yet. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And that can be sort of like, that's the musician's conundrum. Like, do I continue doing this? Or. It was really frustrating, frankly, you know. And I was kind of like, I was doing all the stuff right. I knew I sounded pretty good, you know. And I was, I just sort of said, all right, well, I'm just going to kind of hang in New York for a minute and just teach. I ended up teaching him a place called School of Rock, which then became. Oh, yeah. You know, a big thing. It became the School of Rock. It became the School of Multiple Schools all across the country. Yeah, it became a huge movie made of it. Yeah, it became a Broadway show. Oh, my God. It's a whole thing. That's so cool. It's a whole thing. So I taught there for about three years without doing many gigs. I would still do gigs with friends, like, you know, small, smaller stuff, playing with like Chris Hartford. Like we're talking about playing his band of changes and stuff around. And I still did stuff with my friends, Joe, Dave, and Marco. We had a instrumental Zeppelin thing called Bustle in Your Head Row. Yeah. Now, when you say Joe, when I say Joe. You're talking about Joe Russo. I'm talking about Joe Russo. So now there was a PDS connection there too, kind of, right? Did that sort of? The connection is really easy. Remember the wetlands nights? Yes. Ronna would play in the basement. Yes. Our friend Joe would come to watch because Joe's, it was in Fat Mom at the time. Or maybe they, yeah, I think they're still in Fat Mom. And my friend from Princeton, Puzha, a lot of my friends from Princeton Day School would come and Scott knows all these people as well. Would come to see us play wetlands, like a cool night out, right? And I remember many times Joe being like, who is this Indian girl? Like she is so beautiful, I have to meet her. And that was it. And then they just, they're married together and then they're married. They're married children. Beautiful child. So Princeton Day School connection is in J-Rad as well, which is cool. Yep. Princeton Day School is everywhere, you guys. There's no escape from you guys. Is that how you remembered it? I feel like that's, I just remember. I think it's so linear. 100% accurate. Yeah, they met it though. I mean, I think that they met at the wetlands at a Ronna show. It's a really small world. The music scene is such a small world which you get in there because Rana and the duo did a bunch of touring together. Oh, cool. Rana would open for the duo. Oh, I did not know that. That's great. That's really cool. So bustle on your head, drug. Do you have any clips? I sure do. Sweet. What song? Come on. Tien-a-lien-lien-lien-lien-lien-lien-lien-lien-lien-lien-lien-lien-lien-lien-lien-lien-lien-lien-lien-lien-lien-lien-lien-lien-lien-lien-lien-lien-lien-lien-lien-lien-lien-lien-lien-lien. Yeah, maybe heartbreaker. Maybe we'll listen to a little bit of heartbreaker. So we should say, or you guys, it's about to become painfully obvious, bustle on your head row, there's one exception, Dave. If we play hot dog, Dave sings hot dog. The band started with just me, Joe, and Marco as a trio for a few years. And none of you are really singers, right, so to speak. Right. That's not like in our foundation or musical foundation. And then a few years, so we were just playing it instrumental, Marco, playing the bass lines with his left hand. And a few years into it, I told Joe and Marco, I was like, you know, my friend, Dave, who plays in Ween, knows more about Zeppelin than everybody in this room put together, which is really saying something. Yeah. And I bet that he would like love to come and play with us. And step up the game big time with a real bass player. Exactly. Free up Marcos playing, you know, and just like having like a bass player. And Dave's like the quintessential rock bassist in mind. Dave Dryitz, we're talking about who's just an amazingly, but if you throw out his musical talent completely, he is also just the nicest person in the world. He's shockingly nice. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I feel like a terrible person after I hang out with Dave Dryitz, you know. But he also happens to be an unbelievable bass player. And he and I share the same favorite bass player. Which is. Can you guess? Paul McCartney. Yes. Good guess. Great. Yeah. So anyway, Dave joined Bustle in your head row. And now we're going to hear a little bit of that. Yes. All right. [Music] So, and then so for a bunch of years, I was just kind of being a freelance New York City session guy. And I played with everybody from like country bands, to soul bands, to jazz groups, to singer songwriters. And I went all over the world playing with these people. I toured all over Europe, all over Asia, all over Australia, over the course of like five or six years. I was kind of just getting hired on as a touring band guitarist. Totally. Like I in the back, you know, like totally not in the spotlight. The last gig that I did before Jay Rad started to pick up, it was a 90 minute set. And we would play the same set every single night. And there was not one guitar solo in the show. So I was in a completely different headspace. When Jay Rad started to. That's called just earning a paycheck. Yeah. It was, yeah. Well, it was really satisfying. I mean, I thought it was great music. And too, it actually taught me a lot about just being contributing to the sound of a band and getting your ego totally out of the way. Oh, cool. Like, because I can play guitar, but there was no. There was no need for it in the music, you know. You're not going to get a spotlight on you ever. Right. So do your best as a backing. Yeah, which actually taught me. I'm so glad that I had those years, those years. I maybe learned more about being a musician in those years. That's cool. Than any other point in my life. Right. Because so much before that was like, and now for the solo. A lot of that music has that. Yes. That's right. That's right. And all through it, I've always had a love of Django Reinhardt, which was a Gypsy jazz guitarist from the '40s. And kind of the reason that we're sitting here, I started a group that plays that music with Katie Jacoby and Simon Kafka. And we're called The Showdown Kids. And we play Gypsy jazz. And we recorded a version of stash by the bandfish. And I sent it to you. It's an amazing version. And that's what put us back in touch. Really? That's what put you and me back in touch. Yeah, because I recorded it. And I was sitting there and I was like, I should really reach out to Tom and send him this. Because I bet he'd love to hear it. I'm so glad you did. And since then, we've gone to concerts together. We've hung out and now we're podcasting. Now we're podcasting. Who knows what's next? Let's hear, yeah, exactly. Maybe amphibian 5.0. Let's hear stash. (upbeat music) (music) (music) (music) (music) (music) (music) (music) (music) (music) (music) (music) That's just beautiful. Thanks, Ben. What's the name of that, Ben? Sorry. That's called the showdown, kids. Okay. And that's actually the first time anybody's ever heard any bit of that recording. Oh, wow. We just recorded it a couple of months ago. And it'll be released later this fall. Fantastic. Yeah. Well, maybe Trey will hear that one. I hope. I hope so. Yeah. Now you have another band called Wolf, right? I do. What happened there? What's going on with that? That's good. What's going on with that? That's sort of, I've always had a love of telecaster playing, which if you don't know about what a telecaster is, it's sort of a very specific way of playing the guitar. I guess the roots of it are in country music. Is it Chet Atkins or something or? Chet Atkins, he didn't actually play a telecaster, but it's closely related. No, you're not far off at all. It's kind of like a very twangy sound. Some of the guys that have influenced me on the telecaster would be like Robby Cannon and Danny Gatton. And these are some of the guys that are the greatest guitar players to ever live, really. And for some reason, really grown up guitar players tend to gravitate towards the telecaster. And I'm sure that he doesn't play it for the reasons that you do, but people like Bruce Springsteen play a tele, right? Yes, and Keith Richards. But it's different. They do it differently. They do it rock, like whatever. Well, the telecaster was the very first electric guitar. It was the very first model that Leo Fender ever made. So there's sort of like this purity to it. And it's nothing fancy. It doesn't look like sexy. And there's no fancy decorations or costuming on it. It's like a very functional slab of wood with two knobs on it. And that's your axe. And you can either play it or you can't. That's your main axe. But yeah, for the most part, yeah. Awesome. Awesome. And so anyway, so Wolf is a trio, bass, drums, and guitar, all instrumental, again. And it's kind of my tribute to trying to be trying to be a guy in a telecaster lineage, I guess. Awesome. So you're kind of keeping the telecaster history going. I'm doing what I can. And let's hear a little bit of Wolf. [MUSIC] [MUSIC] That's beautiful. Thanks, man. That is really great. So Scott, thanks for kind of taking me through sort of, at least in my history of you, kind of a dark spot where I didn't quite know what you have been up to. I was happy that you found yourself in New York City and were able to, you know, maintain these amazing connections and eventually something awesome came of it. Now the first time, I mean, I kind of started hearing a little bit about J-RAD. You know, there's connections and people start, you know, saying this band's really good time. You've got to go see them, that kind of thing. But prior to that, Trey was getting ready to be the guitarist for the Grateful Dead's 50th reunion. Right. The ultimate jam band. Ultimate jam band gig that just like everyone in the dead community and the fish community couldn't believe was happening and yet was simultaneously incredibly excited for. Out in Chicago. And Trey, you know, there are a lot of accounts of how seriously Trey took it and how honored he was. But very few people know really what that means with Trey. And Trey is a monster when it comes to studying stuff and getting ready for stuff. And he dropped everything and put all his energy into it. And I'm talking, he went through the very, very earliest. He kind of went into Jerry's, everything that exists from Jerry's history and kind of learned to play chronologically as Jerry's playing. You mentioned Jango Reinhardt. Trey was in a, he was telling me, he was listening to something and he's like, Oh my God, Jerry must have just been listening to Jango Reinhardt. He could hear the influence. He could hear it. Right. And then so then Trey goes and listens to Jango Reinhardt and learns that. You know what I mean? Yeah. To like follow the breadcrumbs backwards. Precisely. Precisely. So finally, you know, he, and I don't want to speak for him because he didn't tell me all this. I'm, I'm filling a bit of it in just knowing him over the years very well. But my guess is that finally he kind of came to the point where he was done sort of studying by himself. And he got this guy, I believe he met through Broadway, an incredible keyboard player. And by all accounts, a guy that can kind of play all the parts of the band. So Trey needed, now let's, now let's play this stuff that I've learned. Let me now play, you know, the Jerry role with another person just to start feeling what it's going to be like playing it live. He did that for a while with, with this guy, Jeff Tansky, keyboard player. And then I think, and, and you can tell me if I'm wrong because you were involved in part two of this, I think Trey then was like, you know what? This is great, but maybe it's time to play with a full band. And so how did, what happened next? Well, at some point, I don't know what his thinking was behind it, but at some point he called Joe, Joe Russo. Trey and Joe had been in, um, grab together with Marco Venavento and Mike Gordon. So that's how they knew each other, right? So there's a connection there. And Joe had since grabbed, had gotten the further gig. Right. Okay, which was Joe and, and Phil Lesh and, and Bob Weir. And, you know, so he had, he had been fully immersed into the Grateful Dead Sea. Ah. And so I'm sure that Trey's thinking was like, well, who do I know that really knows the, the dead book that I could play with? Who might be in New York City? Who might also be in New York City. And good call. And Joe Russo fits the bill. So he called Joe and as I understand it, those, the three of them, Jeff, Joe and Trey played at a rehearsal space for a day or two. And Joe at some point, I believe brought up the idea of bringing me and Dave into it. And Jay Rad was a thing at this point. It was. Okay. It was a new thing, but it was a thing. Okay. So suddenly Trey was playing with three members of Jay Rad. That's correct. Wow. I don't know if anyone knows that. I don't know. I don't know how much of this is out there, you know. That's pretty cool. I don't know. It was, it was really cool. For me, it was amazing to watch as a guitar player to, to, so anyway, let me back up. So we went up to the rehearsal space, which was on the upper west side. And we spent three days, I think it was, playing long days, you know, talking like, you know, eight hours or something in a little sort of, it was awesome. Like a little like not too comfortable rehearsal room, you know, and just banging out these tunes. How many people were there was like the four of you or five of you and an engineer? There was no one else. That was it. There was no one else. I thought five of you. You're like stopping the tunes and he's like, oh, the bridge is there. Right. He like writes it down. It would be different things like the way that, I mean, he was clearly taking this extremely seriously, you know, as you would imagine. And some of the tunes, the, the dead song book is interesting because it has, it covers a lot of bases. Some of the tunes are kind of folk tunes. And if you know the chords, you can just play through the tune and you'd be like, okay, great, I know that song and then move on. And then there's other things that it's like, it almost gets into like prog rock territory. Weird parts and shit. Weird parts and shit. And, you know, and a lot of that stuff fell on the Garcia guitar parts. And it's like a lot of those tunes have guitar parts that like you have to know, because if you don't, if it's not in there. You're not leading the band. Right. You're not doing it right. Yeah. And everyone there is going to know that it's not there. So some of the tunes we would just play through and it would be like, great, we got that one sound great, you know, moving on, you know. And then other parts, we other tunes, we would play the tune up to a certain point. And then he would, you know, the song slipknot comes to mind. This is a very sort of involved guitar run in the middle of it. And it was, we just kind of played the tune up to there. And then he just wanted to loop that part just over and over and over again for a long time for him to get it under his meaning have the band loop. In other words, the band. Yeah, just take off like it was like a 16 bar section and just only play those 16 bars over and over and over as the live band you were playing it. It wasn't like something that he put on a recorder and just played. No, no, he had us. That's what we were there for. Okay. Got you. Wow. And you're playing rhythm guitar during this. Are you all, would you also play the lines that you didn't need to, I suppose? I wouldn't need to. I mean, you know, is there harmony here and there that you put in? There's harmonies that I would, that we would do, but like we would also kind of like, we wanted to keep it interesting for him and us. So like sometimes I would play the harmony or sometimes I would play the chords or like, you know, sometimes Joe would like throw in a drum thing that would like sort of surprise everybody because it can get sort of, you know, when you're just focused in, in a little room for hours and hours, you know, you got to keep it fun. Yeah, it's supposed to be fun, you know, at the end of the day. Well, that begs the question. Did you guys, well, like, so, so Jay Rad is known for taking dead jams into places that the dead wouldn't have. Yeah. Did you guys go there in that room? Did that ever happen? I'd say yes. Yes. I'd say yes. I mean, I'll put it this way. Like there were, there were times where, you know, we would just sort of say, okay, let's just like play for a little bit just to kind of like, it was like musical ginger, you know, like clear the palate for a second and just like, just like get it out of your system. And we would jam and we would, at the end of the jam, we'd stop and everybody would just be like cracking up laughing because it felt so good. You know, it felt like we did something new together. Like we made a musical statement together. That's cool. And I think, you know, you got three guys from Jay Rad. So of course, the sound of our thing is going to come through. You can't help that. Where the words ever said, like, you know, when you're done, like that jam is likely never to occur on the, on the great for that stage. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Like that probably won't happen. Right. Well, because like we're also, you know, like we got into like a Sabbath sounding thing. It's like, I just don't see it happening. You know, you know, bad looks from Bob Weir. Now, you know, these tapes probably won't come out ever. I don't, you know, I honestly don't know. I would love them too. But I have to ask just to fully put myself in the room. Did you guys sing too? Or was it only Trey kind of singing? No, no, we were absolutely singing. I mean, I feel like my role there is in a big part was, was to help him out with the Bob Weir songs. And because, oh, so, so in Jay Rad, I sing the Bob Weir songs. You're the Bobby part. I'm like the Bobby vocal guy. Yeah. And those songs can be tricky. If you don't have, if you're just playing the chord progression with no sort of road signs with the vocals, letting you know where you're at. So you have to, for it to be useful, you have to put the vocals on. Right. Right. Exactly. Amazing. And so I did a, I personally did a lot of singing in those because I don't think that he had had the chance, I don't know, but I got the feeling that he was hitting some of the Bobby tunes for the first time because he didn't have anybody. Okay. Well, that's amazing. Well, thank you for your role in that because the result was so fucking incredible. I mean, I can't, I mean, I'm not over it yet, sort of. Unbelievable. It was very cool to watch segments of that. I didn't go to the concert because I was, I was playing, but it was very cool to watch the, the result of all that work, like to have been a fly on the wall. Yeah. And to kind of like, like we were talking about the other day, like, I felt like I was like a sparring partner for like the heavyweight champ, like getting ready for the big fight, you know. You're that guy holding up those like pumps this, you know, those big, like with the, with the headgear and everything, you know, just like getting the hell beat out of them, you know, for, for the greater good. The, that metaphor works until you imagine Trey, like actually punching because I can't. Yeah. No, that makes two of us. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard to picture. Well, that's, that's, that's amazing. Well, let's talk now. That leaves the last band because it's your current band, J-Rad. J-Rad. What do you have to say about J-Rad that? I mean, I mean, everyone knows J-Rad that you guys are, it's a huge band. It got huge fast. It's, it's, we are just as surprised as anybody. Really? Is the best thing that I could say. Well, you know, I mean, the truth of the, the, you know, the background is, is that it was going to be one gig. Seriously? It was, where was the gig? At Brooklyn Bowl. Oh, wow. And we were going to play, there's this annual party in the city for live music fans called the New York City Freaksball. And we were, we were asked to play one night of Grateful Dead music. And, and we also great, you know, like sounds like fun. Let's do it. And we did one show and that was in January of 2013. Um, and the response that the, the show had gotten through the course, the, the months after the gig was so overwhelming. You know, the tape got downloaded just like, I mean, so many times, you know. People were blown away. Everywhere that I was going that year, people were like, you got to do that, that, that dead thing again. You know, I don't know if we had even called it. It was almost dead yet or what? You know, is it because you took, is it because you took the jams to a place that no one kind of had heard before? That's what I'm told. Yeah. And because you, nonetheless, treated it with respect. Absolutely. Absolutely. That's very, that's, that's amazing. It's a fine line with music just in general of, of having like, treating something sacred. Yes. And then having, and then also not being too afraid to put your thing on it. You know what I mean, to make it your own. That's kind of exactly what I meant by respect. Right. You have to have respect. You can't do it, you can't do it wrong or it's going to sound awful or be interpreted, you know, awful. Right. But you do also don't want it to sound like that. You're just trying to sound or we don't want it to sound like, I think that I can speak for everybody in the band. We don't want it to sound like that. None of us are interested in trying to sound like somebody else. Right. You know what I mean? Yes. And that's the, the comment that I hear the most is that, you know, it's, it's really like the ultimate, it really means a lot when guys, people come up to us, or me, whatever, all of us, after the gigs. And they're like, you know, I saw the dead 300 times. And the energy that you guys have is the first time that I've felt it since 95. Energy is a good word. Cause you guys also, like you turn the tempo up with no question. Well, that's all Russo. I mean, Russo gets full credit for, for the whole thing. You know, I mean, Russo's incredible. But the tempo is higher. It's not like, it's no longer sort of like, to me, like Americana, Rootsie. Now it's sort of like, it's got sort of a modern, faster feel. Would you agree with that? Yes. I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Why? You know, at the end of the day, I think a lot of the guys in the band are kind of Jersey metal kids. You know, we, we Google up listening to heavy metal from Jersey. And, you know, and that's part of us. That's awesome. We're playing a song book. Singing in the band was a big thing. Cause I hadn't sang in a band since Rana, which at that point had been like 10 years. It's been a while, right? And, you know, we got very, very lucky with the, the range of Bob Weir songs sitting exactly in a spot that's very comfortable for me to sing in my vocal range. It was really just like a super happy accident. And one of the tunes is, is that I really enjoyed doing this. I enjoyed doing them all, but feels like a stranger is a great example of that, I think. Oh, great. Well, let's hear that. Let's give a listen. [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] Now, the other members of the band, you are with a couple of longtime old friends. Actually, everybody's old longtime friends. Me, Joe, Marco and Dave have done more stuff together over the years. And what's the Jerry guitarist, so to speak? Tom Hamilton. Okay, Tom Hamilton. All right. Yep. So that's great. And you guys kind of in a way, like are doing things differently than the dead did. I think that that's one of the big things is that there's, there's sort of essentially two lead guitar players happening. As opposed to the dead, which is all Jerry. Right. Which is a big difference. Right. You know, immediately that just sets up the, the sonic palette to be. Is there ever a feeling that that Joe needs? I mean, he's such a big drum player. Do you think that the Mickey Hart personality is missing at all? I don't know what that means. The Mickey Hart personality. You know, the other percussionists in the dead. Oh, right. No, to me, no. Because Joe can do whatever he wants. He can play like two guys simultaneously when he wants to. Yeah. Yeah. It's mind blowing. So Andrew and Scott, Scott, I know you're on your way somewhere south right now. Where you headed? I am. As soon as we're done here, I'm getting in the car and going to Lachan. Which is a big festival in Virginia. It is. The last big festival I went to was canceled. Let's hope for better luck for you guys. That was brutal. That was incredible. I don't think, I don't think the fish community is over that yet. Curb ball cancellation. Yeah. That was just, that was some crazy. We heard about it when we were at Soundcheck. I think everyone heard about it. It just felt so terrible. It's really everybody. Yeah. Well, good luck down there. And you don't play today, do you? No. No. Okay. I'm doing, no. We play Carad, plays Thursday and Friday nights. Okay. And then I'm doing a set with Chris Harford on Friday afternoon. And on Saturday afternoon, me and Eric Krasner were doing a duo set down there. So, wonderful. Busy weekend, full docket. Yeah, that's awesome. That sounds great. Well, I'm going to let you get on the road. And I really want to thank you Andrew Southern. Thank you very much for coming here. Welcome. And helping me interview this very difficult subject. Yeah. Scott, thank you very much. Scott, thank you really for coming here on your way down south. And best of luck and see you soon, man. Thanks. It's great to see you guys, really. Oh, Cyrus. This podcast is in the loop, the legion of Osiris podcasts. Osiris is creating a community that connects people like you with live experiences and podcasts about artists and topics you love. Get in the loop at OsirisPod.com. What's up, everybody? I am Finn Mckente, host of the punk rock NBA podcast, part of the Sound Talent Media podcast network. My podcast is all about doing what you love for a living. And every week, I sit down and talk to people who have done exactly that. For example, musicians like Tommy from Between the Buried Me, Matt from Periphery, Lolotas and Shinigami, among many others. Photographers, artists, designers, YouTubers like Glenn Fricker and Sarah Deachy. And I unpack exactly how they got to where they are today with the goal of helping you do the same. So if that sounds cool, you can listen and subscribe at soundtalentmedia.com and I'll see you there. Hey, this is Chris Sweeney, formerly of the Atari's and currently host of that one time on tour, part of the Sound Talent Media podcast network. Have you ever wondered what it's really like on the road? The highest can be euphoric, but the lows can be crushing. Join me every week as I chat with industry pros about what it's like living out their wildest dream and in some cases, their worst nightmare. Past guests of the show include members of No Effects, Pennywise, Bad Religion and more. Listen and subscribe at soundtalentmedia.com. (upbeat music)
