(upbeat music) - Hey everybody, welcome back to a new season of Let It Shine. Today we are kicking it off with a great episode with one of our illuminators for this season, Dr. Elena Baron. And I am so thrilled that she's here. You guys, if you have not heard the introductory episode of the season where I introduce you to all of our illuminators, you need to go back and listen to that now because you'll hear all about Elena, who she is, what she does, how we have known each other and there's a really funny story about Clinique. You know what, there is sort of a theme for me and Clinique. It kind of had a really important effect in my early life and I met a lot of good friends through working for that company. So anyway, I want you to listen to that. I want you to get to know Elena. Now today we are kicking it off talking about something that is really important in our lives as we are working towards sanctification and becoming more like Christ. Elena is breaking that down for us and like practically what it looks like, how we pursue it in our life. We talk about some situations in our own lives that made that difficult and how we really fought against God for a long time in this area. I hope that some of you who are maybe a few steps behind us in years or maybe you're a new Christian and you're just learning how to pursue becoming like Jesus. I hope that you will learn from our mistakes and maybe not have to go down some of the same roads that we went down but we're opening it up today. We're sharing those things with you because we want you to benefit from what God has taught us and is still teaching us. So guys, here is my conversation on spiritual formation with Dr. Elena Barron. ♪ Let it dry, let it dry, let it dry ♪ - Dr. Elena Barron, I am so happy you're here. - Yeah, this is like a dream to get to be here with you after all these years. - I know, it really, we were just talking about how, sometimes I can't get over the fact that I get to do this with my friends and because we've known each other for so long, you know, we met in seminary at Southwestern for those of you listening. And I was Elena and I were talking about how we talk to our kids sometimes about, you know, the friends that you're making in your life in your 20s, some of them you'll not meet really be friends with for too long, they're friends for a time. And then there are others that you are meeting right now who are your friends for life. That is absolutely our situation. - Yes. And it's so cool. Like we've not lived in the same place since we were in seminary together in Texas. - Since I was 29. - Right, that's right. But we've kind of followed each other, we've reconnected over the years. I remember when your family was moving to Brazil. - Guatemala. - Oh yeah, when your family was moving to Guatemala to be missionaries and you came through Orlando, do you remember that? - Yes. - And you did like a Disney stop. - Yes, uh-huh. - How old were the kids then? - They were 11 and 14. - Okay, the older than I remembered, I thought they were. - Okay, that was another time. We came when they were younger, they were like 10. - Okay, okay, okay, yeah. Isn't that crazy? So over the years, we've like touch base and connected. And now here we are. - I know. - It's so fun. So, so fun. Well, I am glad you're here because listeners, you know that this season is all about holy habits, is what we're calling it. We're talking about really the spiritual practices that build us into the people that God wants us to be. And there is nobody I would rather have on this conversation than you, Alina. You're one of the first people I've decided on to invite onto this conversation. And so today we are talking about something called spiritual formation. Before we jump into the definition of spiritual formation, will you tell everybody kind of in a practical sense, like what is forming us spiritually? What would we say? We are, how are we experiencing spiritual formation? But we may not use those words to call it that. - Every choice we make is spiritually forming us. - Okay. - C.S. Lewis has a great quote from Wade of Glory that anybody can search online and find out about spiritual formation. And he talks about every choice we're making is either drawing us closer to the design God created us to be or more into a hellish creature. It's scary when you think about it. And so he's like, every choice should be intentional that we think about 'cause everything is forming us into that person that desires us to be. - Okay, that's incredible. When you think about the choice to get coffee, the choice to... - Now see, you can go down a rabbit hole and just feel like, oh, you're like paralyzed. - I know, right. I know, that's so crazy. But helpful, it really helpful to think of it that way. Okay, so spiritual formation, I'm gonna tell you what I think it is and I want you to give us your definition because you've thought about this stuff a lot longer than I have and most of my listeners. And so I'm excited for them to get to hear just the wisdom that you've gained over the years as you have learned, as you have learned how you have brought this into your own life. And then we're gonna take it back from you and put it into ours. So I'm excited. But when I think about spiritual formation, I think about probably just growing. I think that's the first thing I think of. You know that I went through a real growth spurt, I would say spiritually, last year, when I went through kind of a physical challenge and when I say physical challenge, I don't mean a health challenge, I put myself through a challenge to become more healthy. - Yes. - And what that turned into, instead of just a bodily expression of change, was an inward, an inward change. And that's when I really felt like the Holy Spirit worked in me to create a connection between those two that I had separated. The whole life. And so what I'm learning through that process is that really pursuing growth in my life is part of my spiritual formation. But I want to hear your definition of spiritual formation. So how do you define it? - Okay. I would say that spiritual formation is the process of being conformed to the image of Christ for the sake of others. - Okay. Okay, I'm very interested in the for the sake of others part. - Oh, yeah, so we have to get that to the end. - Okay, we'll save that to then. So let's break that down. I want you to explain that to us. And we'll just talk about what it looks like in our lives a little bit, so. - Okay, so the process of being conformed to the image of Christ for the sake of others. So first of all, we look at that it's a process, it is life long. - So we don't ever finish it. - Right. - Because, you know, all throughout the Bible, it tells us that we are trying to become more like Christ, and we will be that when we see Him in person. So that sanctification finishes when we die. So this is a process we're going through. And some people are going through the process faster and are maturing deeper into different levels. And we all know that person, and we've all been around that person. And then some people are just kind of like a neutral, like not really growing towards that image of Christ, 'cause they're not thinking about it. - Yeah, oh, totally. I mean, I think that a lot of us really just struggle to get through the day, and we're just existing, instead of really trying to pursue that sanctification every day. But even when you talk about the process and how we don't finish this, it's something we do for the rest of our lives. I think that can be a little bit discouraging, because especially when you think about, like our stronghold sins or things that we struggle with, I want to know that there's a day coming in the next couple of years that I'm no longer gonna struggle with those things. (laughs) - It's so sad, 'cause we move a lot. And in one of our moves, I was packing up stuff, and I found journals, and it was from back camp, after the first year of seminary, and I was writing this journal, and I'm reading it, and I'm like, I am praying for the same things I'm praying for now, 30 years later, what, Lord? I'm still struggling with this, you know? Yes, I'm farther along the road, but these are still weaknesses, you know, sinful areas that I'm asking for help. - So have you come to peace with the fact that you'll always be asking for help in the same situations for your whole life? - Yes, and that is part of our spiritual formation, is realizing that the next part of being conformed, that whole idea is the fact that when we say being conformed, that lets you know that there is an outside source that is doing the conforming. God is conforming you. If I was saying, I'm conforming, then that would be that I'm in control, but if I'm being conformed, someone else is doing that conforming. So therefore, I have to release and, you know, submit to the fact that God is the one that is going to have to do this conforming. I can't be in control of it. - Yeah, that's really, really good, and so I guess as you're looking back on your journal and you're realizing God has been conforming me for 30 years in this same area, and he's not quite done. But what part of that do we own? What part of that is our responsibility? - Is submitting to him. - Okay. - You know, laying it open, yielding to what he's trying to bring about, 'cause we can fight it, and I don't know about you, but there's been times where I have fought what is going on in my life. - Of course. - Circumstances. Whatever that, you know, this is not right. This is, you know, how could you let this happen to me? Whatever, I'm fighting it, trying to take control of it. And this whole idea of realizing that it's not about me, it's about God. - Okay, I'm gonna tell you the thing that popped into my head. And you tell me if this is like biblically accurate. But there were years ago, I was studying the story of Jacob in the Bible. And I was really struck by the fact that Jacob was always the Grasper. He was grasping, and I really felt conviction over how there were things in my life that I was trying to grasp for and control that weren't mine, or some things that were mine, but I still felt like I had to grasp it or take control of it when really, I mean, as with Jacob, God had already given him a blessing. Like, he was already chosen to be Israel, but he was lying, he was manipulating, he was deceiving to get what he wanted. Now, I don't see myself as, you know, that bad. Listen, yes I am, what am I saying? But you know what I mean? Like, I was just convicted at trying to grasp for things that I thought I wanted, even in ministry, even good things in ministry, and trying to manipulate or put myself in the right situation, or even feel like, I'm even gonna go here, God had called me to this and this was almost rightfully mine, was probably my thought process, instead of just letting go and saying, God, you conform me to be whatever you want in this situation, and I'll let go of it. Does that resonate? - Well, as you're saying, I can totally relate to this, 'cause I went through a long period of time where I was trying to make things, have forcing things, putting my business card in everybody's hand and working that room, networking, you know, and actually, Angie, I was struck by this morning as I was getting ready and all of a sudden, I had this memory of like, it was like 20 years ago coming to a major life way event and it was a national event and I was determined, I was going by myself and I was determined to work that event, to get my name known, and I worked it so hard, it was so, and at that, in that season of my life, it was later on that God revealed to me that I had made it all about me, it was not about God. And so, it has been a long journey of setting aside that pride, asking forgiveness of that pride, and God, this journey is all about you, this is about you and what you want and I'm going to yield to what you want in your life. And I had really forgotten about that because that is the old me, the long go past and I was getting ready and I was like, oh my gosh, I'm going to life way and they have invited me, I did not make it happen, I did not ask them to do that, they, you've invited, and I just started and I was like, God, you're so good, it is you that bring about the good things, everything in our life has to come from you, not from us. - That's so incredible, I mean, I totally get it too, I mean, yes, you have terminal degrees, I have a master's degree from seminary and we, I think, I'll speak for myself, sometimes feel like that should entitle me to be in some rooms because I've done some pretty hard work to get in the rooms and those doors have not been open to me. Do you know what I'm saying? And so that has been my struggle is that other people are invited into rooms or into sit at tables with much less of a quote qualification and I've just had to realize it does not matter, it just does not matter. - It does not. - God knows my heart and if I want to serve him he's going to let me do that and he wants me to do that. He literally is cheering for me and wants me to do that. The room I'm in and the table I sit in is for him to decide and not me. And that man, that is such a hard lesson. This is how I feel though, on this side of making that realization and yielding that, there's so much freedom and peace. It's such a relief that it's not up to me to get there. God is going to open a door. He's going to open a place and that is literally my story. Once I stopped working that and just really just sitting and waiting on him and things began to open and it's just God, it's him conforming us. But he had to do a lot of harsh hurtful, I mean, I was in pain a lot of times. The conforming hurt, really pushing that out of me. - Yeah, totally, it absolutely does hurt. Okay, so let's go back to the definition. The process of being conformed to the image of Christ. And this is what we're talking about, the image of Christ. I was not in the image of Christ. I was in the image of Elena. And so to get to the image of Christ was painful and I'm not going to be there until I die. And Paul talks about this in Ephesians 4, 13 through 15 when he says, this will continue until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Then we will no longer be infants tossed back and forth by the waves blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth and love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head that is Christ. And that's it, is that that is the goal and that is what God is trying to do with us. And I can either fight it and fight it or I can just yield to it. - Yeah. - And all of us know, if we look at our lives and think, where am I least like Christ? - Oh my word. - We do not have to search for it. I don't know about you, but I don't have to search. - That's exactly right. - And I know that's an area God wants to conform me. - That is such a great prayer to pray even. Like God show me where I'm not like Jesus. What a great prayer, what a challenging prayer. And what a way to hear the spirit of God. If you're struggling, you're thinking, how do I know God's voice? Pray that prayer and you'll hear it. - 'Cause it's something that we actually, none of us really want to pray deep down. Because we usually justify those areas. I mean, it could be irritation at co-workers or family members or road rage or whatever it is and you justify it. You just don't know what I have to go through with these people, you don't know. But if we looked at it like that, is that how Christ would act? Well, God wants to change us there. Sometimes he has to rip that out of us with us screaming. - Absolutely, for sure. And it is not fun. - No. - I mean, and it's a process, as we said at the beginning, it just never ends. Okay, so that's the image of Christ for the sake of others. And that is so intriguing to me. - That's the part that gets us, 'cause we want it to be for our sake. - Yeah. - He's changing me for me. But no, God is changing me for others. Why? Because I will then be a reflection of him to the people around me. - That's so good. - They will see God's glory. They will see God's goodness and love. And so he's doing it for those around me. - Yeah. - And that's another part of having to lay that down. - That's really good. - And when I think about the title of the show, "Let It Shine," you know, it all goes back to what Jesus said in "The Sermon on the Mount," where "Let Your Light Shine." Don't hide it under a bush. And, you know, Jen Wilkin talks about how it is not our single light, but it is our collective light as believers to shine that light to the world. It's all for them to have the light, for them to see. And I just think about Jesus and how he came to live and die for everyone else, not for him, right? - Right. - Man, that is so interesting to me. So, okay, so we've unpacked the definition. Oh, go, please. - Yeah, 'cause I was gonna say, so you brought out a point, you know, like, for this community, for this group, that it is not just about us solely, but if it's for the sake of others, that means that I have to be in community. It is not something that can happen for isolation for me. So, therefore, it's not a Sunday morning service that God is calling me to drop in and drop out. He is calling me to be a part of some kind of group of people that know me, that know my brokenness and my weakness, and they can speak into me and I can speak into them 'cause we challenge and encourage and learn from each other and grow and we're a testimony to each other and our faithfulness. And, you know, my husband John, every Sunday at the end of the service, his pastor stands up at the front and he always welcomes people and says, listen, if you're new here, I want you to realize that we're not a perfect church. We are a group of broken, messy people doing broken, messy life together, but we're doing it together because we want to be more like Christ and we'd like for you to be a part of that. - Yeah, that's incredible. I mean, yeah, I think just recently, my eyes have kind of been open to the fact that we're not meant to be, you know, just in a relationship with just me and Jesus. It really is about the community. We're born into a relationship with our community as well, a community of believers. And when we are reborn with him, we are reborn into this community and it's just, it's beautiful. - 'Cause we're the body of Christ. - That's right. Okay, so let's do some practical takeaways for this. If someone's listening and they're like, okay, that was a cool conversation, but what am I gonna do in my life to make some easy steps toward achieving the kind of spiritual formation that achieving's the wrong word probably, but submitting myself to spiritual formation the way God would want me to do. What would you suggest? - First, I have a lot of questions. - Okay. - Because I deal in questions. - Yes, yes, yes, yes. - As a spiritual director. So I would ask somebody, what about this conversation makes you uncomfortable? - Mm. - That's a good place to start. - Okay. - To hold that and kind of figure out why that is. - Yeah. - That makes you uncomfortable. - Okay. - And then I would ask what we talked about, where my least liked Christ. - Yes. - Is this choice moving me towards Christ or away from him? - That's another thing. When we think about the choices in our life, whatever the, a lot of times we would make this choice because I want it or I desire it, but is it something moving me towards him or away from him? - Is there ever a neutral? - No. - Yeah, there can be things that you're like, it doesn't really have an effect. Like if I have a coffee in the morning, that is not gonna affect my relationship, you know? - Some people might. If you have a caffeine addiction. - Yeah, that's true. - That's true. - I don't know, I just made that up. - Yeah, but you know, I don't want people to get weighed down by decision, but realizing that we do need to think about this. This is a major part of big decisions and choices in our life. - Okay, can we talk, I know we were about to wrap up, but can we talk a little bit about how this affects our decision making? Like, are you gonna get to that in another episode? - Oh, we've been talking about this. - Okay, let's talk about it now. Because I know there are things like choosing a college or a job transition, and really you can look at them and say, well, let me give you an example. When our oldest son was choosing his college, he was looking at different aspects. And really, if we looked at what was gonna grow him more as a Christian, that's the way we were looking at it, he had the opportunity to grow in either spot. It would have been a completely different kind of growth. One was at a secular school in a very post-Christian environment. One was a Christian school. Both opportunities for growth, but how would you say spiritual formation or even asking that question, is this going to conform me to the image of Christ in that sort of situation plays in? - Well, a lot of times with college students, 'cause we were in college ministry for years, we would always say you need to realize that choosing college is a mission field. So is there a place for you to be involved in serving God in this? Where do you see that? Is that part of the decision you're making? Is this all about you? Or is this about, is there somewhere here that I can be involved and serve and have ministry opportunity? And that can be anything with a job decision too. Is this going to take up so much of my time that it's gonna lessen the amount of time that I am spending with Christ, with community? Is this gonna take me away from community? When you look at a church, so many times people look at joining a church of all about me, what is this gonna give me? Well, how about where is there opportunity for me to serve? Does this church need help? Does it need me? Or is it not gonna matter if I just come and leave and nobody cares? I mean, is this place I can join in? - I love that perspective. It's so good. Yeah, that's really good. I love that. We told our son when he was making that decision, God is everywhere. - Yes. - And so you can really either one, you go, but you've got to assess the situation. Like, is this something that I can get into that will, we didn't use the words, conform me to the image of Christ, but basically that's what it was. And I would say he chose wisely. - Good, yes. - He chose wisely. - Do you have any more questions you wanna share before we wrap up? - Oh yeah, two more. - Okay. - Okay, I would say, how do I feel about God being in control of my sanctification? - God being in control of my sanctification, okay. So the whole idea of God being the one conforming me. How do I feel about that? Because I have a lot of people that they want complete control of how it's gonna happen, how they do their quiet time, how they do their Bible study. There's only one way and it's the way they wanna do it. - Okay. - So. - Okay, I have a question for you then. How did that play out for you? Like, when you were like, okay, I'm no longer in control of my sanctification. I'm going to let God determine how this happens. What, was there a practical like example you can give me? - Yes, I was a very in-depth Bible study person. Like I had taught preset Bible for a long time and I'm all about Greek and Hebrew and that kind of thing. And I just got to a real like staleness in my life. - Yeah. - And I totally believe in that kind of study and I agree, I think everybody needs to be in it. But God brought me to a staleness in my life. And I realized that I looked down upon any other kind of study. Like, if somebody was showing me some other, I always in my mind was like, that's not real study. You're not really learning the Bible. - I totally know what you mean after there, yes. - Yeah, well, that's nice for you, but you're not really getting into it. Until God brought me to this point where nothing, I did not feel like I was connecting with God at all. And I had to go into different kinds of Bible study where it wasn't actually study. It was like God speaking to me in different ways than the ways that I had done before. And it was hard to let go of my tried and true ways of learning the Bible and realizing that God can speak through lots of ways. - Okay, are we gonna talk about this in an, okay. We have another episode coming up about this, okay, great. I'm so happy about that. And then what was your last question? - Oh, where am I allowing others to know the broken me and doing life with them? - Okay, transparency in your relationships. - Yes. - Good, oh wow, these are wonderful questions to ponder. I'm gonna put these in the show notes so that everyone can kind of go back and reference them. And just kind of spend some time thinking about them. And I'm gonna do the same. I think those are such great questions. Okay, thank you, Elena. So glad you're here this season. - Yes, I am too. Can't wait for the rest of the conversation. - I know, it's gonna be great. - "Let It Shine" is a production of the "Lifeway Podcast", executive produced by me, Angie Elkins, produced by Nikki Ogden. It's recorded at the "Lifeway Podcast" studios and engineered by Donnie Gordon. Edited by Robert Elkins. An original theme song arranged by Robert Elkins, the Maestro himself. Performed by Tiffany Casey, Abby Pierce, Ryan Walker, Jarian Felton, and Shawna Felton. Art by Grace Morgan. And I'm your host, Angie Elkins. Meet me back here next week. ♪ I'm gonna let it shine ♪ ♪ I'm gonna let it shine ♪ ♪ Let it shine ♪ ♪ Let it shine, let it shine ♪ ♪ Let it shine, let it shine ♪ (upbeat music)
