In this insightful episode of The Top Floor podcast, host John Nolan sits down with Jaspal Bal, the founder and CEO of Light Link, a leading lighting contractor in Dubai, UAE, servicing the GCC market. Jaspal shares his journey as an entrepreneur and his experiences in leading Light Link to success. He also discusses his experience with Vistage, an organization for business leaders, and offers his outlook on the future of the lighting industry.
Don’t miss this inspiring conversation filled with valuable lessons on leadership, innovation, and entrepreneurship!
Connect with Jaspal Bal on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaspalbal/?originalSubdomain=ae
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Hello there, I'm John Nolan from Vista UAE and here we have another episode of the Top Shelf podcast which Vista UAE is sponsoring this series. So today I'm joined by Jaspal Ball who is the founder and CEO of Lightlink in Dubai. So hi Jaspal, how are you doing? Good, thank you, how are you? Yeah, great. So Jaspal, look, since Vista just sponsoring, this is your ear sponsoring this podcast, I'm just going to start off by asking you how has your experience been in Vista so far? It's been really good actually. First I was a little bit like apprehensive because I was like, oh, maybe I don't belong here because a lot of CEOs and my business is still young. But in fact, a lot of the problems that businesses all have, they're kind of relatable, doesn't matter what business you have. And so having that experience with people that I've been in business for multiple years, people are starting up, it's a real diverse network of people and so far I've found it really, really useful and it's just nice to kind of like vent and get good solid advice from experienced people and also be able to help people with my own experiences as well. It just makes you feel like you're okay, you're on the right track to do the right thing. That's been an experience so far, yeah. Great, okay. Well, look, I know that you're in my Vista group, so you've been a great contributor so far and look, it's great to have you, a great thing about, you're one of the strong guys that actually brings issues that also helps other solve as well. So you're a very active member of the group. So look, let's segue it into more about you now. I'd really like to know a little bit about your company and what's your current role and since you're the founder, what's the story behind how you set this company up? So I've been into by 16 years now, almost 16 years and then I've worked for similar companies, so Lightlink is a Lightlink design and supply company. So we work with architects, MEP consultants, contractors, we do a design service and a supply service and then site support. Now in 2019, I hadn't worked for several other companies in the UAE. I decided to go on my own and at the time I had a business partner and had potential investors and everything like that. But then I kind of lost my job and I had to accelerate all my plans because my wife was pregnant as well with our girl, baby girl. So I managed to get the trade license sorted, accelerate everything to May 2019. But then that same week I had lost the business partners and the investors and then my baby was born a month later. So as you can imagine, it was a real stressful start, but in the end I think that's the best thing that ever happened to me because overnight I became 100% owner of the business and I think having a baby took away a lot of the other stress that comes with it because I didn't have a choice when the choice was taken away from me. It was like you have to have a scrap and get the job done and try and win some projects and so yes but it was a turbulent start but I think it was good for me to kind of have my back up against the wall and come out fighting and within a few months, within I think three, four months, I was able to, I was paying people salaries from my personal account and then once I got some projects in I was able to kind of pay all that and then we've just grown from strength to strength where up to 30 people now turning over 30 million and with an office in Saudi Arabia as well. So that's been a story so far. Amazing. So what year did you start? 2019. So you've got five years old now. Five years old, yeah. And like before that, how did you end up coming to the UAE in Yvaya? What's the story between that? I was working as a lighting consultant before, hadn't started off with manufacturers, ended up working on a lighting consultant and this was 2008 when the market was about to crash and I could sense that things weren't going right in the company that I was working for at the time and they were starting to let people go and one big project went on hold and I wasn't particularly happy in the UK. I was married at the time, was it unhappy marriage? I don't know, that's like I need to get out of it and so I just pulled the rip code and I had an opportunity through friends to come out to Dubai and I hadn't even looked at images of Dubai, I literally googled Dubai and then a month later I was out here, I had a phone interview with somebody and he was like within an hour of that phone interview he offered me a job. So it was all kind of, at that time Dubai was needed people and they were taken on people with not as much experience as they should have, should have had. So it was quite interesting so it was a great start to kind of like Dubai but what I did is accelerated all my plans, all my other stuff like I went then I ended up going through divorce and then I had this kind of single life here. So in some ways I think a lot of people can relate to it that people that came to Dubai needed to get away from something and needed a better opportunity which this ticked all those boxes and I've never looked back since really and now I'm happily married with my wife 10 years and I've got five-year-old or business mortgage all those things so from that perspective like Dubai has been a really really good opportunity for me. Yeah you're right it is a similar journey to a lot of people. So on that journey and especially getting back to the journey of setting up the business but really your leadership journey in general I mean what are the biggest challenges you've overcome? I think self-doubt is one thing is understanding myself understanding what I wanted to do. I think you know I wasn't an academic so you kind of tell yourself oh you've got to be clever to do this to any other but actually you don't you just have to be business savvy have a good personality and so the challenges were in terms of getting to where I've got to today is sometimes when you work when you work for a business you can get put in a box and you can be really good and I mean I was a great salesman working for previous companies but I don't think they ever saw me as maybe that that future leader so you just take matter into your own hands and then start trusting your instincts start understanding like what your strengths and weaknesses are. So those are kind of the big challenges is it was a bit of self-confidence really yeah. Look you've touched on something that's really interesting there which is you say look I'm not I mean what's the most academic person and this is really interesting for me in particular because a lot of entrepreneurs are not necessarily the guys who were you know in the top 10 or 20% of the class a lot of them a lot of them are you know I think a lot of them are those guys that are the top 10, 20% of the class end up working for a lot of entrepreneurs right so you know you mentioned that you think you've got to be savvy what does savvy mean to you like what explain what you mean by savvy. I mean I think there's creativity I think if you you're creative thinker I think that helps you because you find ways of doing good business because you think outside the box you know the only subject I did really well in was art and then the way I ended up doing was a graphic design degree but that was after and I did that as an actual student so before that I was trying to I was did IT study I did business business studies and stuff I just didn't get on with and then I was like you know what I realized what my strength was which is creativity and I said I'm going to put that into more use which is when I started doing the graphic design so that helps me be a creative thinker but I think business savvy is just more about understanding how to make things work for you without kind of being selfish you know you know when you when you say well today I had a sales meeting so I was trying to get the team to understand is that how do you how to close a deal and make you know using all the different negotiation tools you know that's not just about price it's all it's about multiple things and making them work for you and the business yeah and you strike me as someone who's passionate about your business you're passionate about what you do like would you would you say that you're in an industry or sector that you know gets you out of bed in the morning like you're happy you're happy to you're happy to be in this sector yeah so I'll be honest when when I um before I started the business I was really having a one of those moments where you think what am I doing what why am I doing this you know I sell lights for a living I'm getting bored of it I'm not passionate about it anymore because when I was working for other companies you know I had good commission structure and you know I was able to kind of like earn money pay for our wedding and but I buy a house and do all these like great things and have nice holidays but there was something missing because I was not I'm not enjoying it anymore and then once I understood as actually my my passion is to to help people and to build something that a community within within my own business and once I realized that I was like okay well the it's you know I I'm good at selling I'm a good lighting designer and I can sell lights okay now if I put that into a business that's where my passion is so that's why I get up in the morning is because I've created something that's what I feel it's a great place to work it's got a really good environment people enjoy coming to work and you know now if I look at some of the employees where I think that they know they're the breadwinners in their family because of the business that I've created that makes me quite proud you know and I think so that's where my passion is now like they're building this business business with really strong values and a really strong culture that I know when I come into into the workplace I love being there I love interacting with my staff I love interacting with my clients and I think that's where my passion comes now is the is the people it's just how it happens that way we sell lights that could be selling anything as long as I'm afraid this is of good values so it sounds to me like you got a passion for creating the business you got a passion for leading people you're a passion for helping others become successful yeah exactly right well I also know you're a big learner like you're you know you've been on a journey for I think a long time on personal development and you you're investing yourself I mean one of the one of you learned about yourself on the journey um I think there's elements where I look at the skillset that I have to be a leader I mean I've been doing I've had a business coach since I was 30 years old and now 43 that really helped shape and give some structure to my life and give that balance as well um I've always said I mean part of our values in the business is is to listen you know the the LINK is is four values which is listen integrity network and knowledge and I live by those rules anyway so I take the time to listen to staff take the time to listen to our people and we do always do the right thing which is integrity do the right thing by the project do the right thing by the people and then build at the end is for the network so build a real strong network of of clients and supply chain and people and then also make sure that we have the the K for the knowledge and I think that's that's something that I've that was one of the first things I actually came up with sat in the garden before I even like just came up with a company name and I said to myself you know what is it that makes me who I am which is strong values um so and I've learned and now I've learned that if you have that they're no one can ever take that from you you know so competition can come in and say they can do the same thing and there are there is a lot of competition that does the same thing but what sets you apart is how you it's how you work and that what you believe it that's that's my opinion anyway I don't know if I answered your question yeah you have I mean what I what I take away from that is that what you've learned is that when you stick to your values it's a it's a formula for success yeah and the problem is you know your values can change over time um but as long as you kind of stick to those and you're able to communicate those effectively but you have to learn but you take the time because you as you get older as well um you're you're able to kind of look at yourself inward a lot more when you're young you don't you don't have that skill set I don't believe it takes time to to you got to make mistakes you got to learn to listen to the right people and you learn to and you'll realize that the wrong people as well so you know I'm 43 now and I can see it's easy for me to say that um but I think when you're young it's it's a lot harder yeah I like I couldn't agree with him well I mean I'm enrolled in new so I can tell you that I mean the good thing about growing old is you do get wiser and you get wiser because you know of experiences and I think exactly as you mentioned you learn how to be more and more introspective and you learn how to ask better questions of yourself and not you almost admit you as you get older you know less and less and the more that you can admit to that um the more you can be successful because uh when you're younger you think you know it all but actually you know nothing so you know realizing that you don't know a lot and you've got to seek the guidance of others and you've got to think things through more thoroughly and as you say surround yourself with good people I think that comes with age that wisdom yeah and I think um you know when you get to this point uh you know if you do become successful in any field that you're in and then it's also your responsibility and job to help the younger generation to you know to say like this is these are the things you need to watch out for and look out for uh but not not kind of like over overbearing them and be overbearing with it it's a real skill set I mean I'm not saying I've got it right but you know I have a little girl that I have you know I've got to make sure that uh teach your hand what you know what's best for it you know yeah no it's like I mean you're right I mean it's passing on wisdom the younger generations is part of your duty as you as you age whether it's family or whether it's friends or whether it's employees um I think I think those wise people that can do that successfully you know they're not just more successful they're happy and yeah absolutely yeah I think I'm probably the happiest point in my life now because I because I'm doing the right things I look after myself now you know more than I ever ever did before you know a more conscious effort about watching what I eat and training and all that kind of stuff and and I suppose that comes with age because you wake up William your knees hurt for some reason you know yeah exactly okay so look let's let's go back into the uh story behind Lightlink what what what do you see what does the future hold for Lightlink over the next few years um I want to expand into uh other regions or at least make Saudi more successful um and uh I kind of got a size in terms of turn over that I want which is comfortable while so we can still maintain our values uh for me Lightlink could be an investor in other businesses that do similar some of the things will at least enhance it we have an acoustic division as well now so it's not just lighting and so I want to that's in the last year we've grown that now we've got some two people working there um so it's looking at that revenue stream lighting controls as well so it's looking at business of other business opportunities and so our market sector has been we've been really strong in in uh commercial work offices high end offices big blue chip companies and we've uh we are diving you know we did the museum with a future so we're looking at projects like that going okay there's other project there's other market sectors to be looked at education health care uh residential hotels not just offices and so we've expanded into that into those other uh market sectors so I want to get really strong like that so I want to kind of even split over the next next five years into all those different sectors so you know it's about employing the right people that have got those connections and we're already kind of on our way there I feel like I'm building a really solid team like a client facing team uh which has really kind of got me excited uh how the next five years could plan out um which then kind of leads you on to like okay what what does 10 years look like for me you know you know what do I want to be doing um you know do I want to be in divide or it all depends on what you know what the family situation is with education and that but the way I see it is I'm just trying to build a really strong team and then it'll just be more you know more efficient but about turnover so whatever I'd like say if I let's say I do 30 million here I'd love to be able to do 30 million in Saudi and build another team there but by maintaining our vision and culture and values that's the kind of plan right so on that I mean look you've been in you've been in the region quite a long time um and the and and Dubai is you know enticing more and more people to move to it right now I think a cross-section of nationalities and skill sets so you know what how what's your outlook for it for both Dubai for Saudi for the region uh into the future um I think um Dubai is a really it's a really busy market um you know it's a really solid market for us um you know what we've seen now it's like a lot of the kind of blue chick companies that have offices here they're kind of either refurbing or they're getting a little bit bigger or what they're doing is downsizing and but making their office nicer so that's group a lot of opportunities in in that sense um there's massive with all this kind of investment coming in from other countries like Russia and everything like that that's helped with a lot of the residential market as well people are buying fillers left right and center so that's been a real growth for us moving forward and Saudi Saudis just on another level when it comes to kind of projects that we're touching on there I think I think the investment that Saudi's been doing in terms of it especially their sports and events it's creating a lot of attraction there you know you know if you go I'm a big boxing fan so the fact is that you know you can go to Saudi to see an event of a lifetime rather than Vegas is insane that I never thought that would have happened so they're putting themselves on the map and the UAE with everything else that's going on in in Russell Kamer the hotel resorts that they're putting up there the opportunities that are huge um and I feel like Dubai is probably one of the most stable markets for that so yeah I think it's just going to continue to grow um and uh yeah education and health care but when we start to even touch on those things they're just getting better and better and then you know some of the schools that are coming up they're coming up with like UK schools and everything like that so yeah so just just thinking about the future I'd like to ask you you know how do you find managing the workforce and how's that evolving because they talk about millennials and I think the latest Gen is Gen Z is it um how do you how have you found it as a leader and as somebody who liked myself uh you know grew up and was trained in the early stages in more of the old-fashioned way how what's involved and how how how does your leadership or how have you how have you had to change the the human resource society of business um I think there's definitely um to attract certain type of talent they will look at you as a business and you know what things are you doing outside of just paying people on time because you know and what medical they're looking at okay what kind of activities do you do with your team what's charity work do you do um so they look at you as you know ethically as well which is a good thing I think um and I definitely think you have to have a different approach uh to dealing with certain personalities um because like you say we're at old school you know you know there was a lot of shouting and swearing going on in the office in some of the places I've worked and you know I just don't think that's you can do that as much now uh there's um so you have to kind of cater to that but I I would say that's and that's probably why I kind of touch on the values so much and make them so strong because I think to correct the right talent that's what you have to do um but it's not just a tick-bock exercise you have to believe in it and that's why you have to come up with yourself you can't just go on the internet and go like what what company values are you have to be passionate about it yourself because if you know people are going to buy into it um and people won't work there they'll see right through it um in my opinion anyway so yeah and I know you do a lot uh for your employees as well as I think for your clients so what type of activities do you do so we have such a cross-section of nationalities and cultures as well yeah that's a good question because what we've done is um we've done wellness days so we did a beach workout with clients we've done a beach workout with our staff and then we had a company come in uh and educate all the staff about uh food and calories and um macro balance meals and all this kind of stuff we're going to do another one at some point about finance how to manage personal finances better um and I think it's just about you know making people's lives a bit better um I mean I've been i've been uh if you if you know like I'd stop drinking I started working out a lot more so I lost a lot of weight over the last kind of couple of years so it's something that I've realized that it's so important um to actually looking to feel good about yourself um and then that way you actually perform better in the office you're more efficient you're more happy um so who comes up with those ideas because they sound they sound amazing it sounds to me like you are creating a community in your company where people are not just obligated to come to work and give value to the company but the company is looking of how they give value back right so creating a real community feel where people um feel appreciated yeah so how do you you know how do you come up with a first you know when i want to start the business i want to create this like really nice welcome in an environment um where people could relax when they when they were at work it wasn't like somebody's plot watching them but actually one of the directors that uh work to me um he uh goes to a gym and then there was a uh a friend of his that was setting up these events like corporate events like where you do workouts on the beach and then it kind of like conversations started flowing and then they ended up getting involved and doing an event for us and then once once i once we did one event i was like this is amazing uh like it's 7 a.m. in the morning we're all on the beach together and then we did a did a second event with clients and staff and we did the one of the talks as well in the office um so it's kind of just evolved um but it's very much in line with with things that we've set out as a business what we want to do and we'll help what do we want to do to be to be better so can you share which company that was do you want to give them a plug and then um um oh no it's a different company i'll have to i'll get you the details for that um yeah i just thought if the list is mine because yeah i think a lot of other companies would like to do it it's just a matter of executing it successfully right these type activities yeah i mean there's a whole bunch of companies that do it um but we really like these ones um especially the one about calories because you know because i even i learned a lot that day as well when they talked about you know what's actually in salmon you know and all this kind of stuff so it was it was really useful and i can say you know it was different cultures in the business but everybody could relate yeah which was really good okay now what about in your personal life what do you what do you do in your downtime what what what what are your what are your key hobbies um so i do like uh boxing so i do three days boxing three days weight training um that's the first thing i do in them i do that seven am six days a week um that's been probably uh the biggest changes that made it into a habit it's just part of what i do now um so i do like um uh and obviously i like to take clients golfing um golfing i've started this year because because i don't drink anymore i still i still like to socialize and and still like to kind of uh keep in touch with people go for dinners but i think that was a big thing for me it was like you know you used to go out and entertain a lot kind of entertainment taking staff out but then when you don't drink you you don't get invited out as much um because there's a whole um thing around that but eventually now i've got to like two years i was like right okay i need to i want to be out and more with clients but i need to create something so i was like right let's get this golf membership and we can take all our clients and i'm like if i'm going once a week for four hours of some more best clients i spend a game changer for me uh some of the conversations i've ever had was even really really good um so you actually now it's become a passion of mine and a hobby it's to play golf um but i am a family man you know um i you know i spend a lot of time with my family um you know and i enjoy i enjoy being a dad a good dad um you know so being present for uh is it takes a a lot more time as well great now so do you have any favorite podcasts or any favorite books or influencers or anybody in particular that has inspired you that would be um yeah i mean let us uh just recently in the last kind of couple years i'd say there's been one uh couple of podcasts like with the diary of ceo there's a slim aesthetic one recently i mentioned it in our last meeting about uh about friendships um that was a really good one um there's i mean in terms of podcasts because i because i've done like a business coaching so once a month i see a business coach which really helps um there's a lot of podcasts now about mental health um which has been really helped uh really useful um and then uh it was actually a really good book about uh successful marriages seven principles of marriage by john gottman um that's been uh i think uh maintaining a successful relationship takes work um and and there's a this particular book um has really really helped shape a successful marriage with me and my wife to make sure and we we get on even better than before we've got a really great relationship a great marriage but even now i think this book has actually helped us be even better um and so yeah and uh so that this guy's gone four years worth of research uh all my mates that tell me they got oh you know they got marriage problems or they're not happy in a relationship i said stop talking to me get this book it would you know if you're if you're willing to willing to work at something then i think that's a really great start for most people and it's not only that but it helps you with your personal life as well well i i love i love this advice you're giving right because you know in visage really the primary reason you join is is is to help you to help you achieve your success as a leader right in business but actually to do that is a three-dimensional it's it's a three-dimensional journey it's not just your business it's also the quality of your personal life right which as you mentioned is is your marriage your family life and the quality of your health two things you've been touching on repeatedly in this so you know there you go i want the listeners i'm going to read it out again because i think i have heard of this book before i've not read it but i i think it's great advice seven principles are married by who? John Gottman John Gottman John Gottman yeah i i think um it's always a great start but i i'm a big believer in that i think the part of the success of the business is because i've spent time getting my personal life right um you know because there's no point there's no point you know successful ceo and then you've got you haven't got a great relationship with your kid you haven't got a great relationship with your wife it's because then you then you use the business as an escape you know i feel like uh you need to have a a balance but just understand what that balance is well you know why you're touching on that i mean i've got a saying when like success doesn't create happiness happiness creates success uh you know and uh people who chase happiness by thinking they're going to be successful in business or successful in one manner or the other um they've got it wrong and i think with wisdom and age we both think we figure that out as we go through life right but actually it's it's putting your getting your mindset in the right place but you know is what ultimately will make you more successful yeah the the money comes with that you know it you know people kind of chase the the money but actually um it's a product of you striving to be happy um and that's how it's worked for me and there's a lot of uh there is a lot of gurus out there that say choose who choose happiness like you need to choose to be happy and you need to set that as a goal and do whatever you can to be happy and then the um the rest of the rest of it falls in line as you say um now what what what would you say to your 18-year-old self if you were to have an opportunity to go back and meet uh Jack Bulbala as he's 18 with all the wisdom and knowledge that you have now what what advice would you give him um i'd say would to follow figure out what your passion is and and honing on that because i think uh i didn't know what my passion was i didn't have a lot of direction growing up so he's kind of um what i knew what my passion was i was good at art you know so i would probably say to myself then follow that you know i'd be probably four or five years ahead of where i am today had i've kind of uh followed what my passion was and figured that out and got good at it and found a career path within that which i eventually did but it took a lot longer and you know cost a lot of time and money um which now when you get older you find it's more precious um you know losing time and i think another thing i tell myself at eighteen is is he's definitely learned to look after yourself better um you know i was i was i was i was always kind of struggled with weight and i think just kind of um educating yourself and being consistent you know um i think the part sometimes these have in a creative side of you can be a little bit spontaneous um and inconsistent sometimes there's that there's those things that come with that but but you only understand that when you get older um like now i know what i'm good at and i know what i'm terrible at and everything i'm terrible at i have the right things and people around me to kind of counterbalance that so i can be really honing on on my skill set so yeah i'd say that um um to my younger self it's is um are those things where i've you know learned to look after yourself better but also figure out what it is that you want to do but it's difficult to kind of um you know for for a young person to really figure out what they want to do um there's so many options now as well look it's great advice uh i've got kids as well and uh you know it is an interesting journey thing in a very different world than we grew up in trying to get with them right and uh i think the best advice you can give younger kids these days is find something you love and that you're good at uh don't find something that you love that you're not very good at because that's not going to work but if you find someone you love and you're good at and double down now if you don't know what you love or you're good at you know spend your 20s trying a few different things until you find it um i think a lot of uh the old way of thinking that was probably passed on by our parents was they were trying to push us uh into sometimes put around you know round pegs in the square they were like trying to say you need to be a teacher you need to be a lawyer an accountant a doctor but the reality is you don't need to you need what you need to do is find find your passionate passionate at and good at and you'll be successful yeah and especially if you if you're not an academic it's really hard because when you're an academic it's it's kind of set out what you need to do to get to a certain place right to get good grades okay you if you want to be a doctor you've got to be really good at xyz and i think that's what something uh you know i didn't have because i wasn't really uh academic um so it's about kind of guarding them because my dad would be like oh you know let me just go into a work with a briefcase but he was first generation born in india i mean so um you know an i'm first generation born in england um so they moved here for a better life but then it was so young and they had to work two jobs so yeah it was really difficult for them to go and understand what um what real education was well great well look uh it's been really enjoyable chatting with you today i'm going to finish off with another question on VISTAGE you've been a member of VISTAGE for most of the of the year now so you know seven eight months um what advice would you give to anybody that's interested in VISTAGE and you know they're thinking of joining or becoming a member what advice would you give to them um i think uh as long as you're open um open yeah you have to be able to talk about your business really um because you will get a lot out of it and the um and just it will make you feel like you're not alone in your problems and i think that's one of the things that people won't go do something like this because they feel like they're not going to get any help out of it but it's really really helpful so i think uh it's more the advice is just to be open to to to new things um i think that's the main thing really that i found is that because i i had my own judgment as well you know so it's kind of thrown in there with with an open mind uh will help you uh get the most out of it because there's some real good experience in the room already now like even now like what seven months in and i'm able to kind of call one of the guys and go what do you think about this you know um and they'll give me real good advice yeah it is great advice i mean one of the one of the major aspects of VISTAGE is it helps with that isolation that CEOs find themselves in i mean you know CEOs founders you you have to show confluence uh in in front of your stakeholders whether that is you know if you have other shareholders or whether it's your employees you have to even in time to crisis in good times bad times people are looking at you and you are you know you're the barometer of the business so you have to always be showing as if everything is under control but sometimes in your head as you know things are not under control you can't you're finding it very challenging to make certain decisions and it can be lonely and you don't want to bring all the problems home all the time because that's not going to be healthy for your your marriage right or relationships so you know in VISTAGE definitely from my experience and from all the studies it helps CEOs out of that isolation because for for in our case four hours a month you've actually got people that are encouraging you to tell you about you know the challenges the problems you're facing and how they can help you yeah even on the you know like the WhatsApp group there's always like kind of a really nice insights into you know like we talked about how to deal with millennials you know and or gen Z or you know you know how do you know as an older CEO like deal with that kind of stuff so there's all these kind of articles that get published on there having they're really helpful and actually makes you want to contribute as well like like even you're doing this you know it allows you you know some platform to kind of give something back as well. Brilliant okay well look thank you very much Jasper for the conversation today well done on the journey you've been on personally as a leader and in creating a very successful successful business so you know growing success to get the 30 million turnover in about five years I think the journey's the journey's only beginning though given that everything you've set up and I know with your focus on Saudi and the UAE and everything we know about this region and the positivity and you know the great leadership in the region for businesses like yourself I think you've got a great future ahead of you so thank you for the the podcast. Thank you very much.
