The Social Contract with Joe Walsh
“Bridging the Political Divide: Two Dads Defending Democracy” Joe Walsh and Fred Guttenberg at Johns Hopkins University
Former Republican Congressman Joe Walsh and Fred Guttenberg have strongly opposing political views. Walsh is an ardent gun rights advocate, and Guttenberg, whose 14-year-old daughter was killed in the 2018 Parkland School shooting, is a prominent gun safety activist. In this recording from the Hopkins Bloomberg Center of the live discussion between the two, moderated by Leah Wright Rigueur, a SNF Agora Institute Associate Professor of History, we hear from Walsh and Guttenberg as they tell their story of how two people who are diametrically opposed on politics and policy can lower the temperature and start listening to one another.
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- Broadcast on:
- 21 Sep 2024
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Good evening. Thank you for coming out. I am Leah Wright-Riger, and I am the S&F Agora Associate Professor of History here at Johns Hopkins University. Thank you for joining us tonight for what I'm sure will be a fascinating, if not intriguing, conversation. This beautiful building that we're in, the John Hopkins Bloomberg Center, opened its doors recently with the goal of becoming a home for engaging, bipartisan, solution-centered-oriented conversations. Tonight's discussion promises to be exactly that. If this is your first time here, please don't make it your last. Scan the QR code one, like the one up on the screen right here, or join our email list and learn more about events like this one. Now before I introduce our guests, a quick reminder. This conversation will include a discussion of gun violence and may touch on other contentious topics. We don't have to agree with the speakers, but we do ask that everyone be respectful of one another. Our guests are here to model a conversation with people they disagree with, not to determine a winner, or who is right on the issues. So without further ado, I'd love to introduce tonight's guests. Our first guest is former Illinois Congressman Joe Walsh, a Tea Party Republican. We also have Fred Guttenberg, a prominent gun safety activist whose 14-year-old daughter, Jamie, was killed in the 2018 Parkland School shooting in Florida. So I'd love for our guests to come out and join us tonight on the stage. All right, so I have a lot of questions, and I see some of my students in the audience. They know I love to ask questions. I also love to talk too much, and I'm going to try and not do that too much, although Fred and Joe have also told me they enjoy talking a lot. So we're going to try and reign in. We're going to try and have a shorter conversation, but we also want to make sure that there is enough time to get lots and lots of questions from the audience. So I want to start out with something really simple. How did you two connect, particularly given just how different you are? Fred, Joe? Yeah. So as you said in the introduction, on February 14, 2018, I sent my two children to do a parent across America to do every day. I sent them to school, and just after 2 p.m. that day, I had a phone call from my son telling me there's a shooting at the school. And while I was on with my son trying to convince him to run because he wanted a search for his sister, we heard gunshots. And those were the shots on the third floor that were killing my daughter. Following my daughter's murder, the next day I attended a vigil in Parkland, Florida. And at that vigil, I was asked to speak during the talk for the very first time. It hit me. This was gun violence. And I went home that night, and I walked in my house and excused my language, but I said to my family, I'm going to break the fucking gun lobby. And it became my mission, and it became my purpose. And what happened over the next few years is I found common ground with so many amazing people. I worked with people to fight against gun violence. But I also fought with people. I fought with anybody who was an antagonist to what I was trying to achieve. I fought with this guy. We went at it for years on Twitter and other social media platforms. But something happened about three years ago. I was trying to start this initiative called Dads for Gun Safety. You see, kids know this. Kids across this country have been amazing going after attacking this issue. Moms have been amazing. Dad's not so much. And so I wanted to get dads more involved. And I started promoting it on social media. And Joe, at first, started kind of being a little antagonistic to the effort, and we went back and forth. And then one day this jerk tweets me and says, you know, I disagree with almost everything you want to do, but I respect the hell out of what you're trying to do. And all of a sudden, I couldn't be angry at them anymore. And one thing leads to another. We have a phone conversation and another conversation. And I'm going to be in DC. And Joe says, why don't you come have dinner with me and my beautiful wife, Helene? And I did. And we found common ground. We found we liked each other. We found we enjoyed each other's company. And then you reminded me just back there today, Helene. Not long after that, I did your podcast with Chris Brown of Brady. And it was in that moment, and that conversation where we spoke and we listened, and we did it calmly and decently with one another, that we found while we disagree on a lot, some common ground. Slow down. I'll give a real brief answer. Thank you, Fred. How did we meet? I reached out to him. Right? I'll keep this brief. I'm a big gun rights guy. I was a divisive political asshole. He and I would fight like cats and dogs for years about the issue of guns. I got tired of fighting. I got tired of being divisive. I reached out to six gun-controlled gun safety advocates, the most well-known gun safety advocates in the country. I reached out to six of them. I said, "I know I'm crazy Joe Walsh on guns, but I want to talk to you about guns. I want to listen to you about guns." Five of those six gave me the middle finger and told me to get lost. This guy's the only one who said, "Let's talk. I'll talk." So we started to talk then privately, and as Fred said, got to know each other. But the important point is we reached out privately to each other. We got off of this damn thing, and we called each other. Let me ask a follow-up question on this. I love that you guys took this time and took the initiative to actually find common ground, but I have to ask why. So on the one side, Joe, why given, as you said, your politics, your beliefs, why would you reach out to Fred? And then, Fred, on your end, why would you be receptive to this and why did you respond? As Joe said, the other five people just completely blew him off. I believe, and we'll probably say this a few times tonight, I believe our democracy is teetering. I believe that. I believe we are a nation at each other's throats. I believe that. I believe no matter who wins in November, this country is going to be 100 times more divided come January. I helped get us there. I got tired of being someone who helped get us so divided, Leah, and I said, "I want to be part of the solution instead of the problem. I want to do something about this divide." And so that then compelled me, even though I'm still a conservative, to no longer be so divisive, and to try to help heal the divide that I helped to create guns, this issue of guns has always been a big issue for me, and it was great to start with Fred. I'll answer it like this. I've always taught my children a really simple lesson. It is incredibly easy to talk with, to communicate with, to bond with people who you agree with. That's easy, but it's really important and really necessary for real change to make the effort to talk to people who come from a different perspective, who you disagree with, even if it seems like there's no chance you'll want to talk to each other or like one another. And after my daughter's murder, while I was throwing elbows all around, I also was privately talking to anyone and everyone on the other side of this issue who I thought just might want to be a part of saving a life, stopping the next one. And you know, listen, I'll be honest, I didn't have a whole lot of success crossing that bridge until we started having a conversation with each other. And one other important point I'll make is we talk about finding common ground. That wasn't my goal. It was my hope that maybe one day we'd find common ground on guns and we could find common ground on immigration and health care and all the rest. I wanted to understand the other side. I wanted to understand why Fred felt the way, again, I know Fred's story, but I wanted to understand why people who differed with me on the issue of guns felt that way. Because I didn't want to be the guy that said, Fred just wants to take my guns away. I knew that wasn't right and I didn't want to keep saying that. And I wanted him to understand that me as a gun safety activist, I'm not against the Second Amendment. I don't have a problem with legal lawful gun owners. I hate gun violence and I want to do everything possible to stop the next active gun violence. And you know, when you look at it from the perspective that we both just described, he and I all of a sudden, now we're starting on a platform where we agree and we have something to talk about. We've gotten to a point where we hold in contempt people we disagree with. And I think that a big reason for that is we don't understand why people think differently than us. So to me, that's always the most important first step. Can I say something because I see we actually did a class just before this with some of these amazing students that I see out here. And the truth is, they're deeply impacted by what we're describing. They see the same thing. They see contempt between people from different sides. They see anger. And Joe and I, because we were able to listen to one another and develop a real friendship and try to work together on some common ground and for things that are good for the country, we both became jointly, I'll call it political, the sense that we started fighting for democracy. Because we do believe democracy is on the line. If we don't figure out how to talk to one another. And so listen, that's why we're here tonight to show what looks impossible isn't. And it's worthwhile to take the time to talk to somebody who you think you don't like or who you think might not like you. Because you think you come from a different political point of view. Reach out. And let's be real. Fred and I started this tour in the spring. We've been to a bunch of colleges. We get shit every day from people that were doing this. Every day people on my side on the gun issue. Why would you sit down with that gun grabber? He just wants to take your guns away. We get such crap for doing this, but it's so important. So that is a great entryway into my next question, which is that we are living through a moment of intense polarization, intense partisanship, intense tribalism, where the idea of speaking across the aisle or speaking in terms of commonalities is really missing from these larger dialogues. And so I'm wondering if you both can talk a little bit about the why. Like why is it significant that we do this, particularly in a moment where it feels like all of these things are intensifying, where it's much easier to just double down or buckle down with people who are, you know, I think Fred the language you use is preaching to the choir, right, who reinforce the same messages that you are saying over and over again. It feels a lot easier to do that kind of work. And I'm sure that you have, you both have heard this, it can feel intensely unsatisfying to do the kind of bipartisan, across partisan work that you both are doing. So why do it? Yeah, and it's not, look, it's not, it, Fred's passionate in what he believes. I'm passionate in what I believe. And I believe we are a country at each other's throats. I believe this democracy won't stand if we stay on this road. Now I come from the right, I voted for Trump in 2016, I come from the MAGA right, I'll fully acknowledge because I do every day on TV, the MAGA right is further down this road of hating the people they disagree with, but damn near every Americans on this road. And Leah, I think if we don't get off of this road, our democracy can't stand. We have a job as citizens in this thing, we got to be tolerant of people who are different than us, and we have to be respectful toward the people who we disagree with. I'd argue we're no longer doing that job. I would also say this, I think we are in a place like the one you described, because for far too many elections, too few of us have actually voted, and with too few people voting, we've gotten some real extreme people serving in Congress. However, I'm a firm believer in voting self's problems, and I see my friend, Dr. Joseph Sacrant, sitting over there, and I have been through now several election cycles with this guy making gun violence, a public health issue, and something to vote on. And what I can tell you is because it became something that people vote on in 2018, 2020, and in all the elections in between, we've actually been able to get bipartisan stuff. People coming together who didn't agree but found some common ground to do what was in the common good. Voting solves problems. The more of us who vote, the lower the temperature will be, and so I know anyone who has ever heard me give my talks probably thinks I'm a broken record, but vote, just vote. I think it's fear. I think fear is driving this, and Fred and I have been on a number of campuses now, and we've had a number of college students tell us they're afraid to talk to people who disagree with them. They're afraid to be in a classroom and say what they think and say what they believe because they know their classmates don't think like them. There's a fear now in this country of people speaking out. I think fear also in that we all have our beliefs. We believe in what we believe in. We don't want those beliefs challenged, so I'm a Trump supporter, and I'm going to watch Fox News every night, or I can't stand Trump, and I'm going to watch MSNBC every night because that's comfortable, and it reinforces what we believe, but to listen to someone, or to read something, or to sit down with someone who disagrees with you, that forces you to challenge what you believe, and that's scary shit. And listen, I hope universities and high schools embed in their curriculum more conversation and education on teaching people how to talk, how to talk to one another. I'm shocked at all of the talks that we've done on campuses to learn how little emphasis is put on teaching civics, and help me people to understand that we are a country where democracy with multiple opinions, and they're all valuable. We have to learn how to talk to one another about them, and we've stopped teaching that. So you both have proposed, I think, something that is really quite remarkable, something that is really necessary in the American public, but you've also said that this is something that's not being taught in schools, it's certainly not being taught in these kind of communities where people are siloing themselves and reinforcing with like-minded individuals, and I'm just wondering how, as you two have developed this relationship, as you have developed this, I think, you know, respectful friendship as well, but for respectful but challenging, and then you've taken this on the road, right, which is the really remarkable part of it, I think. How has this affected each of you, and how has it affected the following that each of you built along the way in each of your respective careers? And let me say this again, this isn't easy, and I know Fred and I are acting right now like we're really chummy and we're best buds, but we had lunch in Chicago about six months ago, and privately we started to go at each other on a particular gun reform, and we went at each other privately. It's really important for me to say this, I love this guy, and by the way, his daughter was murdered, and that happens to most people in this country, they check out, they're done. This guy got up and has devoted his life to doing something about that. By the way, that should be applauded right now. But we still profoundly disagree. Fred's a good, committed, genuine Democrat. I'm a homeless tea party guy. I mean, we still disagree on most stuff. Leah, it's hard, because what we are doing right now is not being incentivized. Fred and I should have a show on MSNBC or Fox or CNN. Show people how to do this. There's no money in that. The money is, go on Fox and preach to them, go on MSNBC or whatever and preach to them. That's where all the incentive is. And I say this as a former congressman. The incentive as a congressman was for me to be as right-wing and as outrageous as I could be to keep my seat. There's very little incentive right now to do this, so it takes people like us to kind of help show the way. And part of why Joe and I can genuinely say we're friends, we love each other, and we disagree is because we respect one another. We value each other enough to trust each other's opinions even if they're different, and we listen. I think people have kind of gotten very clogged years over the years, and they don't listen, and it's a really important skill. But listen, to go back to your question, again, what I've always said to my kids, it's always easy to converse with those who you agree with and who you know. But getting through every day of your life is going to require being able to engage people who have a different point of view and finding a path forward with them, some common ground. Listen, the way our democracy is structured is, intentionally, with this agreement in there. You have two parties or three parties, whatever you want. They're not all going to have the same opinion, but you know what? There used to be a day where they did try to find some common ground for the good of the people. It wasn't my way or the highway. And if we want to get back to a place where the democracy functions in a way that makes us all feel better, vote. It's easier to fight and lead to your question. It's impacted my following profoundly doing this. I've lost a lot of my people who said you're not fighting anymore, Joe. I named my podcast initially three years ago, The White Flag Podcast with Joe Walsh. I wanted to wave the white flag. I'm done fighting. I want to sit down and talk. Truth! I want to sit down and listen. And I lost a ton of people because I did that. So I'm wondering, this moment, both of you are saying, you know, on the one hand, you're still having heated disagreements, right? Whether it be pale, yes, or ideological. And that's right. And that's very, very honest. But it's also true that you two have been able to do this and kind of maintain a respect for one another. One of the things that we've been seeing, particularly in online spaces, is the exact opposite. That there is an enormous amount of anger and rage that is popping up and that is reinforced and articulated over and over again in these spaces. One only needs to look at, say, you know, the platform, formerly known as Twitter, now X, just to see the cesspool. Still call it Twitter. So do I, it's Twitter. Everyone call it Twitter. So we agree with it, right? And to see very prominent, you know, we won't name names, but very prominent people really just kind of stoking that. And I'm wondering, as two people who are very prominent platforms, how do you turn down the temperature? How do you get people on board with the work that you're doing, particularly in spaces that actually intensify the kind of rage and division that we have in this country? You know, listen, so there's Twitter, which has turned into, which while is still my platform, and I have my following, it's turned into a cesspool. That's what it is. And so I make every effort possible to continue the travels across the country and to talk to people one on one. I think nothing matters more than personal engagement. Twitter is not personal engagement. Okay, it may make you feel better. Listen, I do a lot of really nice things on Twitter. I also throw a lot of elbows on Twitter. And it's easy to do when you're typing, but personal engagement, taking the time to look someone in the eye, taking the time to hear them out and learning how to do that goes a lot further. And so, listen, I encourage everybody, especially you young people, get out in your communities, you know, become a part of efforts that involve causes you agreeing. Talk to the people who you're hoping will support your point of view. Don't do it from a keyboard. And I disagree with that. Do both. I love Twitter. Oh, so do why? Don't get me wrong. But, you know, Elon, I'd like to slap him upside the head, but I love Twitter. I love social media. There's good and bad. It's the market deal with it. It's a great platform. And Fred's right in that if you really want to have constructive conversations, try to take something private. That's how we started ours. Get off of that platform for that. But no, Leah, to your question, go back and look at my Twitter feed from eight, nine years ago. Boom, boom, boom. And now every day it's, I put out this stuff where I'm still saying, I believe this, but dog on it, I want to know why you think mandatory voting might be a good idea. Can we start? Can we start a conversation about that? I'll do that on Twitter. And for those of you who don't get it, that was part of the classroom session we did earlier. We're going to have that. We're going to have that public conversation. And I found over the last few years, as I put out, as I lead with this, yeah, I'm still crazy conservative Joe Walsh. But let's talk about that issue of immigration. I am finding a growing following of people who are responding to this. We're 55 days away from an election, so everything's screwed up right now. But there's a hunger, I think, in this country of most people who are tired of the. But I'll make it more personal, because my friend over here, who didn't agree with me on a thing when we started talking, he now agrees on background checks. Wow. He now agrees on. All right, here we go. I'm working him over on the age of 21, but we'll get there. But again, to Fred's point, step one was we listened to each other about why we feel the way we do about guns, and over time we did find some common ground. So this is a great entryway to, I think, what would be my last point before we open it up to Q&A from the audience. I know. We've been going. We've been going. You guys were not wrong. You like to talk, which is a good thing. But this is a great segue into this idea of actual solutions. And both of you have been interested in solutions, but I also love the point that both of you made that this started off very specific around the issue of gun violence and has expanded to so much more, has expanded to the question of democracy. So I'm wondering if maybe you could talk about any areas or actual policies with the potential for bipartisan agreement, whether it be through the two of you, whether it be through a much larger arena, through whether it be through the rest of the country. Are there any kind of meaningful points where we can come together and come up with very real and tangible solutions? Listen, I'll go first and I'm going to keep it really narrow. I believe full stop that this vote is a vote for democracy or not. And I believe the ability to have conversations to find common ground and real solutions depends upon how we vote in this next election. So the first place Joe and I have common ground on is just how damn important this next election is. It gives us the ability to continue having our disagreements, trying to search through pragmatic solutions on whether it's the issue of gun violence or other issues that matter across the political divide. If this election goes in a direction that is against democracy, all the conversations, they become kind of not meaningful. But if it goes in the direction of democracy because we voted and we elected people to go ahead and have these disagreements to do what's in the best interest of the country, then we have the opportunity to be a part of what happens next. And I think we have common ground on that. I mean, I don't want to blow off the idea of individual areas. But to me, democracy is number one, two, and three. I know who I want to win in November. Fred knows who he wants to win in November. And I think it's really important. But I think I'll say it again. Please listen to me no matter who wins in November, the hard part begins. If a certain candidate wins, we're going to have millions and millions of people pissed off. If another candidate wins, we're going to have millions and millions of people pissed off. And this thing is going to get worse. And I'll say this again. This is going to get worse no matter who wins. I know you all know who you want to win, but this is going to get worse. And so I love my brother, but 80, 90% of why I'm doing this, why I helped start this tour in March, is because I kept thinking about the day after the election. I knew in March who I wanted to win. He's no longer the candidate. But I kept thinking about the day after this election. And just to bring it back to the issue of guns, I am a dyed in the wool. You got to pry my guns from my cold, dead hands kind of a gun rights guy. Most people on my side believe everybody on Fred's side wants to take away my guns and get rid of the Second Amendment. That's what most of them believe. And I won't speak for Fred and the gun safety side, but I know a lot of people on that side who think the crazy gun people, they don't give a damn if kids are mowed down in schools. None of that is true, but that's where we are as a country right now. And that's just one issue. Are there any others? Before I open it up to a question, I do want to make sure that that we point out are there any others. But listen, I think you can look at every hot button issue right now. For me, the one that's most personal is gun violence, but there's also the issue of choice and bodily autonomy. There's the issue of voting rights. There's the issue of the environment. There are so many issues where the divide is as stark as he painted it on guns. But here's what I can tell you with certainty. And it's why we're aligned in terms of who we'd like to see win. If one person wins, all of the work to have the influence to keep positive momentum going ends. If another person wins, okay, we're going to keep this non-political, then the effort and the opportunity to work together to have opinions and voices heard so that you can find solutions, continues. And so he's far more stark. I'm far more hopeful because I do believe in this next election if we vote in overwhelming numbers, okay, show up and vote. And I think we are able to take this enthusiasm that I'm seeing right now for the political process. It's incredible. But it's still got 55 days. Go vote, just vote. The last point I'll make before Q&A is this. And I say this as a former congressman. The quality of the average member of Congress sucks. It was that way when I was in Congress 10 years ago, it's that way now. The best, the best and the brightest don't run. The best and the brightest in this country don't run for office. We need the best and the brightest to run. That's not going to happen until we out here stop this. And then good people will decide to run. Politicians are not going to save us. We've got to save this thing. I believe that. And that's why we're doing this. All right. So we are going to open it up to the audience for Q&A. I believe we have two microphones, one on each side of the room. I don't see the microphone on this side, but it could just be the lighting. All right. It's up at the top. Thank you. And the microphone over here is down at the bottom. So if you have questions, it would be wonderful if you guys could start lining up and ask to ask your question. I do ask, I'm going to ask for one favor. It is a very big one. We love you guys. You have a lot of important things to say. Your opinions matter. However, when you get to the microphone, please make sure you are asking a question. That means it should end in a question mark. So let's start it off and we can start right here. Young man in the blue show. Hi. I had a question for Fred. So I know that Joe, you mentioned that you've moved politically more to the left, less extreme conservatively. And that has been through your conversations with people like Fred and stuff like that. Do you feel the same has happened to you, Fred, that you've gone more moderate or are you firm in your beliefs? You know, it's funny. I've always considered myself, I've always been a registered Democrat, but I've always considered myself a crazy pragmatist. My focus on things has always been about how to figure out something to fix it. It's the way I ran my business. It's the way I raised my kids that, you know, everything always has another option. It may not be clear to you now, but keep powering through. You'll find that other option. And so has it made me, it's made me more open to other points of view. I'm more willing to listen, you know, than to impose. I will tell you, there are certain hard lines for me. I'm non-negotiable on those, but on this issue, there's so much good that's already been done in the past few years, and that can still be done. And so I'm a crazy pragmatist. I want to get it done. In defense of Fred, to your question, and I don't mean to be funny, I had much further to move. You sure did. I'll acknowledge that. I was way over there. I had more turf to move. And he's a Democrat now? I'm a homeless independent, yes, young man. So I have a quick comment before my question. And 10 years ago, when I would engage with Joe on Twitter, it wasn't really nice. Now we are very good friends, true story, kind of the same evolution as Fred and Joe. How do we take something like this and scale it to a bigger audience? Because when you look at Twitter or threads or wherever it is, it's very hard to do that. And there are a lot of very young, I was in college 20, 30 years ago now, we didn't have these types of arguments really. There's a lot of young people who are angry, who don't have the ability to come to events like this. How do we scale this on a bigger, to get to more people so that they can realize that you can have disagreements like you guys do, and still respect each other, and even become friends? That's a great question. That's my favorite question. I'm going to answer it like this. It's going to happen. Right now the country is paralyzed by this election. This election is going to be over. And then I do truly believe there's a hunger for this. I'm tired of all the hate. I'm tired of all the anger. I hear that, we hear that constantly. So look, if Fred and I have to be part of, we're out there in the wilderness preaching to 100 people here, 200 people there, it's going to grow. And some smart network executive in a year or two or three is going to say, "You know what, dammit? We need a show like that." Or we need a humongous podcast like that. We need a big platform. This is going to happen. What all we're trying to do is help plant the seeds. There are others out there planting the seeds, and then I think it's going to grow. But to your point, it is the reason. He and I keep getting on airplanes and flying to college campuses and doing this. Because one by one expands, and you keep doing it, you keep doing it, and people, they keep expressing a thirst for it. And I would also say, "Hey, all my friends out there, you have a role to play in this. If you don't like the caustic nature of our politics, stop voting for these caustic people." Let's vote for the best and the brightest, as Joe said. Let's vote for people who show from the very second they enter the political sphere, that they want to engage in dialogue. We get to fix this. We have the power. We get to vote. All right, right here. First, I want to express to you, Fred, my heartfelt sympathy. I lived in Broward County for 30 years in Hollywood. My cousin's son was an Marjory Stoneman Douglas graduate. I am very civically engaged. I'm actually going down to Broward in a few weeks, and I do help in other states and the elections. I believe strongly in civic engagement and voting, and I applaud both of you for what you're doing. I understand and agree with your points that civics is among very significant information that's not taught, because it's all part of that which younger people are not grasping, which is critical thinking. And that's the key. And my question for you, and I guess Joe and Fred, but with such large followings that you have, and I heard the word preaching. I don't like preaching. I like more when you're as receptive as you are demonstrative. But how are you using your audiences, even if they're the remainders that from what you used to have when you were out on the right, how are you helping them to think critically? Because without that kind of nuanced understanding, you won't have anybody going past their own comfort zones. I love your question, and it actually gets to a change I made a few years ago the way I utilized Twitter. Because when I was developing my platform on Twitter, and I've gotten a very large following, I used to look at every comment. And I used to get engaged in a back and forth with every comment and people I didn't agree with. And I was part of getting, I was getting caught up in the caustic nature of it, to be honest. And I just decided, you know, I'm going to use the platform to say what I want to say. And I'm not going to get involved in the back and forth and the arguments and the caustic nature of what happens on Twitter. I will, often, if I see people being incredibly caustic, I sometimes will share the comment and explain why I have an issue with it. But I don't do the back and forth anymore. That was part of the caustic thing that for me, it's bad for others, and it was bad for me. I was feeling anger, and I already had enough reasons for that. There's an immense lack of critical thinking across the broad swath of America. We all can do what we can do. Because I come from the right, because I was a Trump supporter, it is my penance, it is my calling in life to work with that segment of our population. And I still engage with Trump supporters every single day. And to your point of critical thinking, everyone that I can engage with, who does get back to me with some respect, we walk down the road of critical thinking. And they'll say, Joe, but damn it, the election was stolen. And we'll walk down the road of the 2020 election, whatever the issue is, and try to have a fact-based conversation. Can't happen right now with most, but it happens every day and every week with some. That's all. Yeah. It's such an important point. And if you ever need to get into some of the elite campuses in New York, I've got in. All right. We have a question up at the top. How are you doing today? How do you feel about younger MAGA Republicans or younger Democrats utilizing your ideas that you've pitched to them to be lucrative and say that's their ideas to be lucrative in the state that they live in? I'm not sure I've followed. Repeat the first part of that. So both of you guys have been in the media, correct? Yeah. So you're on a road show. How do you feel about younger Republicans or younger Democrats utilizing your ideas to implement that in the state that they're living to be lucrative and say it's their idea? I think it would be great. And that's a big part of what we're trying to do. Right now, the money and the ratings, what's lucrative is to go stand over there on the far left or the far right and yell at your people every day. We need to change that incentive. That's a part of what we're doing is to show that there can be a following and ratings in here. Guys, this isn't easy though. This is going to take a long time. I'm 94 years old. I don't think I'll see it. Thank God you laughed. But let me tell you something. No, but hold on, Fred. Before you say that, I was at an event last week and I've used that line before and I said and I'm 84 years old. And they believe them. Freaking pissed me off. But so I bumped it up to 94. To me, the coolest thing would be if all of a sudden young people on college campuses started, students defending democracy and modeling this. You know, that would be the greatest thing. I would love that. Listen, if decency and civility wins this election, that's an incentive for all the corporate media moguls and everybody else to start highlighting that as well. Right now, this sells. But what if talking to one another became the value? And you're all here. The young people that are here, I said this earlier, you're weird. Any college student, grad or undergrad, that's here right now is weird. I mean, that's a compliment. You're not typical. You're not normal, right? Young people in this country, because our politics is so fucked up. Most of the young people we speak with are just, Joe, they all suck. Trump's crazy. Biden was too, I'm tired of it all. Both parties suck. And they turn off. They check out. They don't. That's where most young Americans are right now and that we can't let that stand. Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. With the price of just about everything going up during inflation, we thought we'd bring our prices down. So to help us, we brought in a reverse auctioneer, which is apparently a thing. Mint Mobile unlimited. Premium wireless. Have it to get 30, 30, 30, ready to get 20, 20, 20, ready to get 20, 20, ready to get 15, 15, 15, just 15 bucks a month. So give it a try at mintmobile.com/switch. 45 dollars up from payment equivalent to 15 dollars per month. New customers on first three month plan only. Taxes and fees extra. Speeds lower above 40 gigabytes of detail. Thumbtack presents the ins and outs of caring for your home. Out. Procrastination. Putting it off. Kicking the can down the road. In. Plans and guides that make it easy to get home projects done. Out. Carpet in the bathroom. Like why. In. Knowing what to do. When to do it. And who to hire. Start caring for your home with confidence. Download Thumbtack today. Do you think I'm interjecting to, you know, from the voice from the top to ask a question. Do you think media is playing a role in this and exacerbating it? Oh hell yeah. Huge. And I asked this as for two people who are frequently on television. Always on television. In my old Fox news life. I was told repeatedly. Be as outrageous as you can be. In my new CNN MSNBC life. I'm told the same thing much more suddenly. In my old life as a congressman. Be as outrageous as you can be and you'll get elected. On social media. Be as outrageous as you can be and you'll get follows. So absolutely that's where the incentives are. So and I'll for me it's a little different when I'm on MSNBC or CNN. Everybody loves Fred. Nobody tells me what to say. Complete or how to say it. So you know now in the questioning there could be a little bit of that. But what's interesting is I said when I'm on MSNBC and CNN. I didn't say Fox. They won't have me on. So and they are as a no invite list there. They will not have me on that network. It's been going on for years. I used to go on Newsmax until a you know the I forget who it was. It was their mid-morning show. Started trying to challenge me on an issue. And I just I knew more about it than he did and it ended up looking embarrassing and they went to a commercial break and they haven't had me on since. So so you know there was ways that the media absolutely plays a role. Let's actually make the media about decent civil conversation about great questions with the intention of informing. Let's take the showmanship out and again my friend who asked the question that got all this started. If you want a start a student's defending democracy I think it's great. And understand the media changes daily. They may not even know what MSNBC, CNN and Fox are in 12 years. I mean this stuff's changing. There are humongous podcasts that we both go on that I'll go on. And I used to get invited on certain podcasts because they liked it when I thought because they want to create clips of two people going at it. And I no longer get those invites as much Pierce Morgan and a bunch of others. But that's that's what they want. All right. Yes, sir. Can you hear me? My name is Arha Malam and I really want to thank Mr. Gutenberg and Representative Walsh for coming here tonight. Thank you. Speaking your truth. Well some solutions that you mentioned were one is voting which I definitely appreciate and not being hateful especially to other people who disagree with you. And so I'm a son of Georgia and right now we're having a little bit of trouble with that frankly with certain politicians such as Bert Jones or Lieutenant Governor, my current state senator Brandon Beach. They tried to overturn the election in Georgia in 2020. So my question is how do you not hate these individuals who are really distant from trying you and not only just myself but my mother, my father, the rest of my community. Thank you. Let's go first. No, that's a, that's such an important question. And so I'll say something that most people in this room are going to disagree with. To not accept the result of an American election that can't be tolerated and you and I agree with that. But I'm telling you and the polling right now still shows that 80% of Republicans don't believe Biden really won in 2020. And my former party has showed damn many election deniers that are being elected. But I'm telling you, the vast majority of those people, I'm not talking about the the MAGA politicians, screw them. I'm not talking about Trump and I'm not talking about the liars on Fox News who spew the crap. I'm talking about average voters who believe and tell me every day Joe Trump won in 2020. I'm telling you the vast majority of them are good decent people who are confused, scared, angry and uninformed and they've been lied to, deceived and demagogue now for years. They're ultimately responsible for believing the bullshit. But I'm telling you, what do we do about it? The hope is, and I'm telling you, I know this. As messed up as they are on that issue right now, someone who talks to them every day, the vast majority of them are good people. And they need to be pulled back slowly. I'm going to answer it. Yeah. But screw, screw, screw the politicians who are election deniers. No doubt about it. And the media voices who are election deniers. Boom. So let me answer it this way. Thankfully, this country's guardrails held, they didn't succeed. And we get to vote again in 55 days. And so I'll answer it this way. I can't hate somebody personally who I've never met and who I don't know. But I can't hate what they did. And I hate what they did. And I am determined to ensure that what they did won't happen again. And so it's part of why we do what we do. Listen, I have no desire to ever meet them. Based upon what they did, I find it despicable. I wouldn't trust them based upon what they did. Because I hate that. And so it is the reason why I go on like a broken record every time I speak. If like me, you hate what they did, then all the more important you vote, you make sure everyone else you know who is a voting age votes. And you vote early. You check your voter registration now so that you make sure you don't have a problem voting. But vote. One more thing. They're my brothers and sisters. I mean, quite literally, they are my former supporters, my former family members, my former friends. It is guaranteed that if one candidate loses in 55 days, that one candidate will not accept the results. Guaranteed. I don't care if it's the biggest landslide of all landslides. I don't care about him. I don't care about that candidate. That candidate is who that candidate is. I'm trying so hard to not be partisan. But I care about his supporters who are going to be fed bullshit again. And I am on a mission, and there are others like me to try to help. And the country needs that. Question up at the top. Okay. Hello. I'm a college sophomore. I just, this question might sound a bit nihilistic and might challenge some of the themes of this conversation. But I'm going to play the devil's advocate, NASA's question. What do you think about the phrase that there are no sins left untouched in Washington? And that some might say that we need to get away from this sort of Madisonian idealism and practice political pragmatism, and that say, Mr. Walsh, I'm going to take conservative perspective here, that you're sort of giving in to your political opponent. I don't want to believe it, but this is a criticism that some might endorse, right? So what do you think about like the political pragmatism aspect of this idealism that we're sort of trying to do? I need a wee bit because I'm old and slow. I need a wee bit more clarification. Explain to me what you're getting next. I'm intrigued. Okay. So I mean, I mean, I'm considering the perspective of pragmatism versus idealism, right? So you alluded to this earlier in considering that, hey, Twitter is a cesspool right now because I don't think Twitter is a cesspool Fred. I love Twitter. Oh, let's be clear. I love it. It is how I get my voice out, but it's a cesspool. I did say it was a cesspool. I stand by that. Okay. So like, regardless of whether it's a cesspool or not, let's say Twitter is a marketplace of ideas. And right now, our system of government, our political system, our like a political fabric is endorsing the market of marketplace of ideas, and this is where we are right now. So do we exercise political pragmatism and getting the ends we want, or do we exercise idealism that may not suit, say, the ends that we want to achieve? I'll take a stab, and I don't know if I'm at all in your neighborhood, but I'm going to take a stab. And again, let me just let me be the Debbie Downer at the party. Let me start at the end. And I say this as a guy my age. I'm not trying to grab a headline or a click. I do not know if this country will stay together. I mean that from the bottom of my heart. I said that when I went to Congress 10 years ago, I don't know if this 248-year-old experiment can stay together. The jury is out. The idealism, I want it to. I know it's still kosher or in vogue to bash our founding fathers. They created the most wonderful thing that man has ever created on this planet when it comes to a country and a government. I don't know if it can hold. We have to be ruthlessly pragmatic to try to see if we can keep it holding together. And I think too many of us are too idealistic in our bubbles and avoid the hand-to-hand combat that I mean figuratively. It's going to take to keep this thing together. Does that kind of help a little? Yeah, I just wanted to hear your take on differentiating. I know there's a radical pragmatism which you mentioned to saying we need this discourse. We need this open dialogue, but there are obviously the criticisms that you might get from the various sides of the nation don't come close to doing this. There's no freaking way we're going to stay together. And let me just say this. Idealism is great. It's good. I love strong values. I love strong beliefs. I love people who actually put in the effort to fight for what they believe in. However, as I always say to my son, you still live in a university amongst others. And you have to learn that to get along and that to go forward in this universe amongst others, you have to accept they're going to have strong values and strong beliefs too, and you have to figure out a way to talk about it. And you may not always agree, but you may open each other's eyes and find things you agree upon that are good for both of you. That's all. Okay. By the way, I want to say this. Again, we're all paralyzed by this election and we've been paralyzed by this election for a year. Stuff's coming when this election's done. I believe this. I think we are going to see political reform in this country like we've never seen it. You talk about pragmatism. I think the two-party system is done. I think there's going to be a vibrant third political party. I think we are going to dramatically change the way we vote in this country. I think as a former congressman, we're going to change gerrymandering in this country. I think there's going to be a movement of people running as independents in this country. I think we are on the vanguard of major political reform in this country that's going to come in the next two to three to four years. And it's all been pent up because we've been paralyzed by Trump and then Trump Biden in this election. Stuff's coming. All right. So we have about 10 minutes left and I see we have a lot of questions. So I am going to ask and remind our people in the audience that you should be asking a question and we're going to try and get through as many as possible. Alan, you're up. Now, for some context before I ask my question, I want to give some context about me. My 12-year-old self, all the way to now, I recently turned 20. And like many people in this room, it's going to be my first time to vote. It has been... I remember the day in November, November 8, 2016, I was 12 years old and I was giving a school assignment to which I dreaded because politics was boring. That was my mindset when I was little. I didn't want to do anything with it. I just want to perform with my life, maybe pursue medicine, maybe be an astronaut, who knows. And then I felt fear. And like many of us have our first memories to remember it, we cherish it. The only one I can think of is my first memory of fear. I don't know what to do. I have no words for it and I still don't have any words. Almost 2,800 days later. I grew up. I went to college. I'm here in Johns Hopkins. I am a junior and I am in a pre-med track and starting to become a pediatrician. What am I doing here? You may ask. And like you guys mentioned, the whole team, what I learned a lot from your talk is somebody's got to do it. And I feel like I must do it. Which is somebody who is educated enough in a certain subject. Someone who is an expert in their field, they have to join the political world. And me as a... I want to be a doctor, but I also want to enter politics and be representative for medicine. But I'm scared. I don't know what to do. All right. Stop because that's plenty and I could listen to you for 35 minutes, but we don't have that much time. But I mean that as a compliment. I love listening to every word you said. A, embrace the fear. Fear is a great motivator. I've got three kids. I have one grandchild. I have another grandchild on the way. I am scared to death about what this country might look like in 30 or 40 years. That fear helps to motivate me. The second thing I'll say to you is you're going to be a doctor. You're going to be whatever. God bless you. Nobody under the age of 60 in this audience has the luxury for the next 20 to 30 40 years of ignoring politics in this country. You do not. I don't care if you want to be a doctor or a lawyer. You want to do whatever baby. At this point in American history, you cannot ignore politics. This country is going through a revolutionary period. You got to get involved and thank you. Thank you. My daughter died running down a hallway with a shooter at her back and she knew what she was running from. Because of her fear, I've absorbed it. I live with her fear now. I live with a fear that I won't stop the next act of gun violence. I live with fear that I was part of the problem because I didn't do enough before she was killed. Utilize your fear but fight for the things you believe in. Don't be afraid to use your voice. Your voice is your power and I encourage you to go out there and get it done. I think we have time for a couple more questions. I've got to get my friend Joe up there. Up here. Hi. Thank you both for being here. This has been incredible. So thank you. My name is Isabelle. I'm a master student here at SICE and my question is very simple. I grew up in Wilton, Connecticut just to give again a little bit of context. And I was in middle school when Sandy Hook happened. And I remember when Sandy Hook happened, we all said, never again. This is never going to happen again. And then Parkland happened. And then Stoneman Douglas happened. And this keeps happening. Sorry, last week, two instances again where this happens. How do we bring humanity back into this issue? How do we go from this isn't about they're going to take my guns. I want to take your guns, etc. How do we not not remove politics because obviously politics is central to this issue. But how do we humanize it? How do we bring it back to students do not deserve to die in school? I have spent so often when I'm doing public speaking, it's not this. It's me talking about what happened. And I've spent the past, it's gosh, it's going to be seven years of my life. Trying to get people, the most common thing I hear from people is when they say, I can't imagine how you feel. And I have spent the almost seven years trying to get them to imagine how I feel. And not because I want to make them see the world my way. But I want them to feel that. So hopefully they will go forward as someone who wants to be a part of solving it in a human way, in a decent way, not as an antagonistic way. I'm not against gun owners. I'm not against the Second Amendment. I freaking hate gun violence. But like all these other big issues, it starts with how we talk to one another. And it starts with us, you know, in America, there used to be these things called candidate meetings. And people used to go. We should get back to that. We should demand it of the people we elect, where we get a chance to talk about how we feel in a responsible, decent way, but to do so. A focused answer to your question. Is it now two weeks ago, or was it last week? Last week. Last week. A 14 year old kid walked into a school and shot and killed four people. A mature country that's ready to try to do something about that, will understand that, and let me finish what I'm about to say before you jump on me, that a 14 year old kid, let me complete the thought. A 14 year old kid, who by the way, when he was 13, threatened to shoot up a school. When a 14 year old kid walks into a school and shoots and kills people, that has to do with guns, but that has to do with a lot more than just guns. Amen. And we all have to accept that, that it is guns, but it's much more than just guns. And I say that as a gun rights guy. The second thing you want something done specifically on guns, it will not happen until my side is engaged. You want something really done on guns, the two sides need to come together and get something done on guns. It cannot just be one side. That's again, part of what Fred and I are trying to model. Thank you guys. Thank you. So, unfortunately, and I mean this. You said we had until 10. Oh yeah. Oh my word. What we do have, so unfortunately we have come to the end of our time together on stage. We'd like to thank our speakers for such a thought provoking and thoughtful conversation. Thank you for listening. Remember to listen, share and follow the social contract with Joe Walsh on Apple podcasts, Spotify, and everywhere great podcasts are found. And be sure to leave a five star review. This has been the Social Contract with Joe Walsh. Hey there. It's Farneesh Terabi, host of the So Money Podcast. Imagine having a super smart and reliable virtual friend to help you guide your finances. Well, besides me. Enter Claude by Anthropic. With the power of AI, Claude can help streamline your financial tasks from analyzing data and charts to generating code for investment models or budget trackers, Claude's advanced reasoning helps you tackle the toughest financial challenges. Take control of your financial future with the right tools. 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