J R Apologetics

#01 What Is Apologetics?

What Is Apologetics?

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Broadcast on:: 25 Sep 2024
Audio Format:: other

(upbeat music) - Welcome everyone to J&R Apologetics. We are so grateful that you decided to tune in. My name is Jake Vasquez and I'm joined with my co-host, Rich Ervin. Richard, would you like to introduce yourself? - How's it going everybody? My name is Richard A. Ervin. And so happy to be with all of y'all today. - Yeah, so this is our first episode. So pilot episode and what we would like to do just to give you a roadmap of where we're headed is we would like to go over an introduction, who we are, our background, maybe a short testimony. And then we would like to go over what apologetics is, to give a background and a foundation for the rest of the season. So with that said, Rich, would you like to start just going over who you are and your background and give a testimony? - Oh yeah. So yeah, my name is Richard A. Ervin. I'm originally from California and I actually have a background in youth ministry, pastoring, teaching, Bible. And I got saved back in 2019, 2015. And when I got saved, I got straight into apologetics and Sharon and God's Word and theological stuff and understanding. I didn't grow up in church. I was basically my mom and dad just took us to church once in a while and like on Easter, whatever you call it, like a hallelujah Christmas. - A Kristor, that's what they're calling it. - A Kristor, yeah. So I didn't have to go back around the religion. So as my, I grew up in a bad environment as far as drugs and alcohol and things like that. But as time goes on, after around high school, around time of late middle school, high school, my mom got clean and sold from drugs and alcohol and got saved. And after in high school, I ended up finding out who God truly was by the same way my mom transformed. And that prompted me to seek who God is and who he is and see how to have a relationship with him. And that's what got me to, in tune with religion, to find out what religion was at the, see what religion actually points to the true God. And that led me to like going down different paths, as far as understanding about Judaism, Muslims and Christianity and all that kind of stuff, and seeing all the different beliefs. And, but I always went back to the words to confirm what it says. And that's what led me to Christ, to see what his life truly is and reflect on what he said, led me to him. And I would say that always God found me, I didn't find God. So literally, that's how it happened. But yeah, it's for a certain testimony. - Yeah, well, that's great. And, you know, just so everyone knows, Rich has a much longer testimony and it is very good and worth listening to. So you could reach out to us and he'll give you the whole testimony. - Oh yeah. - You might have to do a whole episode on it. - Oh yeah, and as time goes on, people don't get to know it more. So I definitely believe it gonna come up. - Yeah, definitely. Yeah, so I'm Jake, as I mentioned. I'm a cancer research, I'm in cancer research as a bioinformatics scientist. I've also spent a lot of personal time studying apologetics over the last few years. And I'm also enrolled for my master's in Christian apologetics at Liberty University. Also have the privilege of founding an apologetics ministry called Truthful Hope. So we'll have this podcast and all the rest of our episodes available on that website, which I'll, maybe we could include in the description or the notes so people could access it. As far as my testimony, to keep it sure, you did a really good job of keeping it short, I gotta match that. - It's practice, it's practice. - So it's no fancy testimony, no Paul on the road to Damascus type of deal, but I didn't grow up in a religious household. Both parents were not religious, didn't grow up in church. And I actually find that to be a blessing where I'm at today. And we could maybe talk about that another time. But I always wonder the deep questions such as, why do we exist? What happens after death? How did the universe get here? And I think everyone at some point in their life will ask themselves those questions. But I was always told, don't worry about it. Just keep doing what makes you happy. So I did, I played baseball throughout college. But it was in the beginning of my college and my time in college that my mother was diagnosed with cancer. And that made the questions come back, but it was less about me this time and more about her. So I couldn't let it go as easy this time around. So I actually got into Roman Catholicism because my grandmother was a Roman Catholic. I didn't know Jesus in a relationship, but I knew about him. And I'd never opened the Bible at that point. I just went to church, prayed. And he was looking out for me even back then, which is more of his mercy and grace, which we'll go into. And eventually, I met my now wife and we were trying to find meaning and purpose. And she, in the same way as me, was what you could consider a lukewarm Catholic. And we tried everything, new age practices, tarot cards, talkiness, you know, mediums and whatnot. Nothing really was foundational or substantial. And eventually we got invited to a Christian church and I went and it was just so different. And not because of the message, like I don't even remember what the pastor said, but it was the people, the love that you received, the welcome home signs, all of that was so different to me. So it made me dive into the Bible. And verse one of the Bible gave me the first answer to one of my questions in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. So I kept going, kept answering some of the questions I had, and that resulted in 10 more questions, as you know, that's kind of how it goes. So this became my personal study, and I felt that calling from God to use this and share with others because I found out through conversation, other people were asking the same questions. And sadly, people were leaving the faith or not considering the faith because of these questions that had great answers to them. But it was actually through this investigation into these questions that I accepted Christ at some point. So it does, it can break barriers and introduce the gospel. So that's just my short testimony. I try to match you, I'm not sure, maybe someone can tie most. I'm sure years are shorter than mine. - Yeah, we both come from a background that doesn't have a religious kind of like, you know, notion. Like we come in real fresh eyes. We can actually really dive in deeper into knowing truly who God is. 'Cause some people, they think, oh, most people become a believer in what they view the earth around their way and not like outside things. And that's that's pretty much how we led to the truth. We got led to the truth by actually examining what is around us and from there. Like you said, you would enter a car and all that kind of stuff. And you're like, yeah, this is not working. This is not enough, you know what I'm saying? So I think that that's one thing that actually is interesting that we both have. - Yeah. And I find it to be a blessing because, you know, nothing against growing up in church. Like we're raising our kids in church and as a Christian and I think that's great. It's a great foundation. The reason why I'm grateful for not having done that and just because it's God's plan is because I got the question things. And I'm still very skeptical to this day of most things. You know, it's like when I was presented with the Bible, my first question was, okay, is this true? Is this Bible reliable? Is it just one book? No, it's 66 books, you know? So you go on this journey of learning these things and it's, to me, it built my faith. So hopefully for our audience, we can provide you with these answers that helped Rich and I really deepen our foundation of our faith from what we've gathered over the years. - Yeah, I want us to go straight into our goal for this podcast and the mission and vision. Like what is our main goal for this? I would say one thing, the aim, the known term is to have people get a strong foundation in the work and how to use the word in conversation and how to defend their faith and all these kinds of things. That's definitely a key. Do you want to talk about tapping on that as well, too? - Yeah, definitely. And I'm gonna talk on this a bit more as we go over the benefits of apologetics. But definitely increase the faith of believers and also give non-believers something to think about. You know, I think it's very easy to write off certain things you don't agree with. But I would encourage everyone to approach the reasons for Christianity with an open mind, especially if you're considering Christianity. You should really look at the evidence as it is, not based on how your family member represents Christianity or a friend and just look at the facts as objective information. And hopefully what we could do is show you that Christianity is indeed true because the evidence is overwhelming. So that's our goal and Rich and I are just, and I'm gonna speak for you, but I'm sure you agree. We're just extremely passionate for Christ and for the gospel. And we just want to share that. And we think that this is a great way to break down barriers so that the gospel can be received. - Yeah, and for people that are just listening and don't see the video, we are young. (laughs) So this is, I think this is one thing that is beneficial. I mean, not to say that, oh, people, older people cannot talk to young people. But I think people that are around the same age or younger can actually relate to what we will say in this podcast. 'Cause we're gonna be talking about so many different things that's going on in the current events and also and the different things that are going on on social media, all those kinds of things, we're gonna be tapping on as well to tie it in with apologetics. 'Cause we don't just wanna have this only believers listening to this. When I'm not believing that's in our mission, I have it right here. I wanted to read it from it. I had to find a body and given non-believers a biblical foundation on truth. That's the key thing we wanna do right here is I had to find a body and non-believers, a biblical foundation on truth. Because I think apologetics type in it that way as well too. But the main thing having a foundation is identifying what is truth anyway. 'Cause I got the young kind of piano with truth and it's the sky blue or the purple. He likes it. It's the earth flatter than not. It's like your truth is the fine of that. So that's what you gotta identify with truth really is. It's supposed to. That's how they have to slap me. Let's talk about that as well too. That could be a whole other episode. - Yeah, but that's a great point to start with 'cause truth, especially in modern times, we live in a time where truth is relative and it's like you said, it's whatever tastes best appeases you. - Yes. - But we know, and like you said, we could talk about this another time in more depth, but at surface level, truth is what best corresponds with reality. If I jump off a building and I truly believe in my heart that I could fly, reality is gonna tell me that I cannot. It's literally gonna be a smack in the face. And I'm gonna have to respect that. In the same way, there is truth in religious matters. It's not like reality and then religion. It's actually all in one. - Yes. - Yeah. - So that's what we're hoping to show the whole. - That's a good episode. Yeah. - That could be a very good episode. - That'd be a real, very good episode. But yeah, definitely. - So what we could do at least first is dive into what apologetics is because we're gonna keep talking about apologetics and I have a small group at our local church and it's on defending the faith about apologetics. And I can't tell you how many times people think apologetics. What are you apologizing for the faith? And you know, I understand where they're coming from because I thought the same thing. I was like, that's a weird game. So what I wanna start, I have a couple of, please correct me if you wanna start a different way, but what I think would be good is just give a one liner of what apologetics is. And then I would like us to define faith because I think faith is important to distinguish between what culture says for this. In very, very, very short terms, which we'll dive into further later, apologetics is defending the faith, is defending the gospel. It's using-- - The great ways that-- - Apologia. - Yep, and that's what we're gonna dive into when we break down this verse right after we define faith. I wanna just dissect that verse. We're gonna spend some time on that. - I'm gonna go ahead of you. - No, you're good. - What you're right, it's apology. So that's where the word of the apologetics comes from. We're not actually apologizing. - No, no, no, that's good at it. - Yeah, so that's apologetics simply put. It's just defending the faith. There's arguments for the faith and there's arguments to defend against objections. And then faith, I think, is important to define because many atheists, such as Frederick Nietzsche, Peter Bogazian, these are a couple of atheists that will say faith is nothing but wishful thinking or blind, I'm paraphrasing, but that's what they've meant in their definitions and their writings. And it couldn't be further from the truth when we talk about biblical faith. So one verse that I would like to bring up is Hebrews 11-1. And this is the Hall of Faith that's considered in the New Testament. And it says now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. So assurance and conviction are two words that do not mean wishful thinking. In other translations, it's confidence and assurance. And so these words are very clear that it's not wishful thinking or blind faith, it's based on something foundational and that something is evidence. One more verse, and I'm gonna turn it to you, Rich, that I would like to mention is John 2031. And this is John's reason for writing the Gospel of John. He says these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and that by believing you may have life in him. He's not saying just believe it. He's saying believe what we're writing down as evidence and then believe in Jesus because this is the evidence that you need that we're eyewitnesses reporting on the accounts. So do you have any thoughts on faith? - Looking forward towards the future of a Christ, it's gonna bring to us from heaven, like the kingdom of God is actually gonna be a physical kingdom, not no spiritual, only understanding of it, it's gonna be a physical kingdom. And we look for this hope, blessed hope and the glory of God to come. And I think of it like, how can we ourselves defend this understanding of God's kingdom, his will, his glory, all these things, we have to be able to defend in every single circumstance because everybody had their own definition of who was God, what is the glory of God and understanding like about creation or anything like that whatsoever you could think of in religion. This is something that we never witnessed of creation, we didn't witness it, we wasn't there with it. But if we able to go into the scripture and have this foundation to defend those things against people who are atheist or the steepest people, then we have a strong foundation in these things. I think that's definitely key. I like that verse of referring to not just things of the path but things yet to come as well too. So I love that verse I just thought about it in my head about faith 'cause I know that verse come up a lot of times in church. People don't really think about it only in materialistic things, but it's more to that verse than people that realize what Paul was saying. - Yeah, that's a great take on that verse and that's Hebrews 11-1 and the other take that you could look at that and conviction of things not seen. Well, I don't see Jesus right now. I didn't see his resurrection, but I still have conviction and assurance. Why? Because there's evidence for those things. There's great historical evidence for the resurrection. These accounts in the Bible are not just written at a certain hundreds of years ago, they were written a long time ago, very close to the events independently. So it's very good historical evidence that is showing me that, even though I'm not seeing the resurrection, I have enough evidence to be assured that it happened. - And then one verse I can think of that relates to that is when the time is? - You think doubting Thomas, yeah. (laughing) - I like this though. Instead of saying doubting Thomas, we call him honest Thomas. You know why? Because he was honest about his disbelief. He did not, he was very honest. So I think one thing, if we be honest and be humble to God, he will reveal his stuff to us. But a lot of times, if we're not humble, God knows every single man's heart. He knows what's inside of him. He knows our thoughts and our mind. So we're not humble and actually seek God when it's a sin of heart. You'd probably be like, oh, yeah, God, you throw him to strike down this thunderbolt right now or stop raining, whatever, this and that. But honest with sincere, honest and humble, and God revealed himself to us. But Jesus said to him, he said once he showed in his hands, he says, I don't believe. But he said, bless those who have not believed, who have not seen and yet still believed. So literally, we have not seen the resurrection. We didn't see the physical Christ come up, come out of the grave or we didn't see him after he resurrection. But he said, bless our those who have not seen and yet still believed. And that's a key thing right there. That's really faith. And we can type in more about that, but it's not only like a spiritual faith, but also we have physical foundation. We can also talk about that later a few, too. 'Cause one thing we have the Bible which is very reliable and we have historical records with a very reliable as well, too. But I think also with those two things crosslining each other, it gives you a even stronger foundation. And that's the key thing people have to understand that there is physical evidence that we can look towards to actually defend our faith. Not just like, oh, this because somebody wrote it, it's true. No, 10 years from now, people will come across documents about Kobe Bryant being a wack player or a weak player or whatever. And sometimes you'll leave that, but that's not true. We know that's coming around with a grave player, one of the greatest of all time. But some of them might come across a post or something that's out there in the world that actually said that he wasn't good. And that might become a later on, a standard or a belief by that particular group people, you know what I'm saying? But we could go back to the evidence and look at his stats, look at what he did in his career. We could like that statement that's positive 'cause literally this shows that he was actually a good player. - Right, the corroboration, yeah. - Exactly, exactly. And that's where a lot of religions fall at because they don't have the actual corroboration with history. And they say, oh no, this is what Allah says, this is what we're gonna go by. But you're like, oh, but it doesn't line up with history. So he got come over all these other excuses to even defend their faith. That's what I'm talking about. - Yeah, and just to sprinkle some seeds in here, for those who don't know Rich, he isn't close to, if not an expert in Muslim theology. And we are gonna get into a lot of that throughout the season. So I'm excited to hear from him and what he knows about it. I'm sure you're gonna get a lot of that as well. But going back to here and there, yeah. Going back to honest Thomas, I'm gonna start saying that from now on. That verse actually is the verse right before the purpose of the Gospel of John. So, and a lot of people unfortunately take honest Thomas or doubting Thomas as evidence for, oh, you don't need evidence to believe 'cause Jesus says blessed are those who have not seen and yet believed. But you said the correct interpretation of that verse. It's not wishful thinking. It's those who don't demand seeing to believe something. And that, what else do we believe that we don't see? Well, I would say love. I've never said love, but I believe it's true. I've never seen my emotions, but I believe they're true. So there's immaterial things that we do in fact believe in that we cannot see with our physical eyes. I've never seen George Washington, but I do believe he was the first president of the United States. 'Cause we have good evidence for that. We have good evidence for it, yeah. And then the last thing, last couple of things I wanna touch on with faith is Jesus is miracles. Why did Jesus do all these miracles? It wasn't just for our wellbeing. It was because he wanted to show us that, he didn't even have to do this. He wanted to show us reasons for trusting in who he was. And that's amazing. He did certain miracles so that we can believe in his claims. And the last thing, I'm gonna reference this Christian philosopher a lot through our time. His name is William Lane Craig. Most of our listeners may know who he is. He defines faith as believing in things we have good reasons to be true. And I believe that is the biblical definition of faith when we look at the evidence. And there's countless more scripture to back up this definition that we're not gonna go into now. (laughs) I did just want to clarify faith before we go into apologetics. 'Cause this is, it's big. If you struggle with faith in the right definition, apologetics becomes kind of unnecessary maybe. You know, you gotta have the right definition of faith, so. - Definitely, definitely. - Yeah, so you're gonna tap on to the importance of apologetics or you want, yeah. - Yeah, so let's actually look at the foundational verse for apologetics. And that is first Peter 3.15. So I'm gonna go there. - I have this, we call this the Jake's apologetic sandwich right here. - Yeah, apologetic sandwich. I kind of came up silly name, but you'll understand what I'm talking about. So let me read you the verse. It says, but in your hearts, honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and respect. So the reason why I say, well, first of all, that word defense, as you mentioned, in Greek is apologia, and that's where we get apologetics from. But the reason why I look at this as a sandwich is, there's, you know, when you're eating a sandwich, there's two pieces of bread, of course. Unless you get one of those crazy burgers from like Burger King when you were like 15 pieces of bread. But typically there's two pieces of bread. Have you ever tried eating a sandwich with one piece of bread? It falls apart. Unless you have them. Okay, well, the most people-- - That's right. - That's right, cool is real. Right, and so let's say you remove the bottom piece. Doesn't work. If you remove the top piece, still doesn't work. And if you eat with no pieces of bread, it's not a sandwich, it's a bowl. You know what we're talking about? So you need both pieces of bread to keep it together. The reason why I say the silly analogy or illustration is because the way I look at this first is in a sense a sandwich. The top piece of bread is, butt in your hearts, honor Christ the Lord as holy. The middle piece, the meat of the sandwich is always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you. And the bottom piece of bread is, yet do it with gentleness and respect. So let me break this down really quickly, and I want to turn to you for your thoughts. The top piece of bread, again, is in your hearts, honor Christ the Lord as holy. The reason why this is the top piece of bread is because if you don't honor Christ the Lord as holy, then everything falls apart. The sandwich will fall apart. You won't be prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that's in you. Or you might give the wrong answer or the wrong response. And you won't do it with gentleness and respect because you have no foundation as where you're doing it from. So you need that top piece of bread. I want to jump to the bottom piece of bread, yet do it with gentleness and respect. When I first got into apologetics, I thought I had the best answers to the toughest questions, but I lacked gentleness and respect. I was forceful, I was borderline loud, and it got me nowhere. 'Cause who would listen to someone who preaches love in Christ, but then screams at people who disagree with them. So if you don't have that bottom piece of bread, none of it matters because it's all gonna fall apart. And that leaves us with the middle piece, the meat of the sandwich, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you. If you have both pieces of bread, this will be seamless. And when we say always be prepared, you don't have to be a scholar. You don't have to be an expert in all the science and philosophy and all that. You just need to be prepared. And sometimes that means being silent. Sometimes that means asking questions, studying on your own, looking into the evidence. It doesn't mean being perfect in your responses, but being ready to give a response. - Exactly. - So that's the apologetic sandwich. I'm gonna trademark that. What's your thoughts on that, Rich? - I think this is definitely a good glimpse at this verse. I never really thought about this, but I just think of like, I just read the middle part. Be prepared in the same thing. (laughs) You missed the first layer. - Yeah. - You overlooked it. - Yeah, you need the meat. That's all. You don't have to mix the other parts. Yeah. Go straight to the meat. But this is a good point. I think this is a really good point, because for one, we have to look at this in the glance of saying, okay, but in your heart, honor Christ. And every single time that we go out, or we talk to somebody, we are in that through the Christ. I would say we are a good stewardship of Christ. So when we go out and representing Christ, every time we speak the way we act or we interact with people, people are looking at it and looking at these things. And this reflect on how we, as believers in Christ, are different in the world. And that's why we have to do everything we do or we speak. We speak in truth. Let's speak it with gentleness and respect. So this, all these things are like literally combined. I think about this 100% is definitely useful, because when you are in a heated conversation, a lot of times we tend to be very defensive and offended by what people say. And literally, if we keep our reading, like verse number 16 goes with depth about that, being slender and all these kind of things. He said, "Those who reverence your good behavior "and Christ may not put to shame." So literally, we ask believers when we do all these things and we are getting oppressed or getting abused or whatever this and that, it doesn't matter. Literally, we are joining for God, Laurie, his honor. And actually, that's the key thing you have to remember all the time, 'cause even when Jesus told me the disciples when they go out and preach the gospel, he said, "When you go into a house, "and when you go to a town and then people "don't accept you, you dust your feet off "and go to the other town." He said, "To mighty bless you and love you to stay there. "Bless your adults who do that." And all these kinds of things, he gave them a guidelines of where they go into these different places. He doesn't, don't feel defended, don't feel like somebody like betrayed you or whatever is fine. Just keep on going, dust your feet off and go to the next person, go to the next person. And a lot of people, a lot of times, they go and receive what you say. People ain't gonna respect what you say or whatever. And that's fine. I mean, as long as you give them the truth and you're not swaying by making a lie and this is, it got a little sprinkle like this as well too. And a lot. In Islam, as you all don't notice, they can actually lie when they, it's called Darwin. Darwin is a way they, that's, they, that's they are problematic. It's called Darwin. And in Darwin, in the sense of it, the whole wording actually is basically defending your faith in any meaning necessary to spread Allah's word. And that's even with the regards of lying. People don't even know that. So, a lot of the time they have this whole script, they read this whole same thing. But in Christianity, when we read the Bible and the truth, we don't have to make lies that make it acceptable. We tell you what it is. God's love, compassion, he wants to reconcile you with his relationship with Christ. He cries out for you to be reconciled with him and have a whole, man, they win him again, the whole relationship. And they don't lie within it. And they tell you if you, and we can add also when those things about understanding of how we knew our mind, you know, new heart, cleanse and all these things, there's a lot of spiritual words within it. But we're not, we don't have to speak of it with a lie and say, oh, no, this and that move over. We're not good at it. We'd be able to come straight forward with it and be with gentleness and respect and honor to God and glory. So that's literally, that's a good, that's a good verse to even just think about every time we did fit around faith, yeah. - Yeah, and you know, sometimes too, and this is something I'm still working on is, it's okay to say, I don't know. You know, it's okay to just, you know, I don't know, let me check in on that, let me look into that and let's grab coffee in a week. - Yeah, yeah. - And in that week, you prepare and you get to them and you talk with them about what you found and say, hey, I came across this. What do you think about this? And you know, it's, you're still loving, 'cause we still have to love people who don't agree with us. They're made in the image of God. But we wanna show them the truth because we love them. So, you know, it's okay to say, I don't know. I'm struggling with that because, you know, we all wanna be right. I mean, who wants to be wrong? - Yeah. - But it's a big, it's big in conversation. - Yeah, and I think in reverse, I don't see, I don't see no word that says answer always. (laughing) I don't say that. I mean, it just says it isn't always being prepared, you know, to make a defense. That means that we have to have preparations beforehand so that when we do get this answer, we can't have it. If you don't, that's fine, it's prepare again. Go, go, go, go, find out. I have had questions. I mean, I have a number of different varieties and have a whole bunch of different artists. I call it my arsenal of defense. I have a lot of different arts in the country. But Islam, for Hinduism, for your witness, anything I have an arsenal for it. And when I don't have an answer for when they have questions, you know what, I'm gonna write that down. And I go research it, I put that question in my notes and I put what the answer was. You know what I'm saying? If I can't find it, I can go to somebody else that actually knows a different feel. Everybody in Christ have a different feel that they're stronger. And that's one thing in this podcast, when we have topics that we're not strong in, we're gonna find guests that actually are strong in that area to help us, help y'all grow a foundation. And that's what we're looking forward to, all the guests that we have. There's so many different guests we are trying to get contact with and looking forward to have them sit down with them. So yeah, I'd definitely stay in tune for that, 'cause we got some great people online that we hope have an interview with. I think it can be beneficial to everybody that's listening and watching, because the people that we're gonna approach are experts in biblical studies about the resurrection. Everything you think of, we're gonna find the fun people that actually are beneficial that are knowledgeable in those areas. And that's one thing, we're not, all of us don't know everything. Everybody's some people are in different areas. Don't feel that you're not a worthy of doing a positive day. Everybody is worthy of doing a positive day. You know what I'm saying? You just have to prepare. Literally, it's always be prepared, prepare yourself for when these questions do come up, you're already ready to give a defense. - So William Lane Craig, he's written a lot about this of, how do you know Christianity's true? And what he's essentially answering is, is apologetics necessary to be a Christian? And his answer is no, it's not necessary, but it is extremely beneficial, especially in the very counter Christian culture we live in. And he says it's not necessary because as we read in, whereas I think it's Romans eight, 14 through 16, the Holy Spirit serves as our inner witness, confirming the truth and teaching us and guiding us the Christian truth. So we don't have to have these assurances of evidence and reason 'cause we have that inner witness. However, if someone asks you, how do you know Christianity's true, it might not be the best argument to say. - Oh, the Holy Spirit got me, yeah. - Yeah, you know, that's not too convincing for an athlete. - No, it's not, it's not, I had to learn that myself firstly as well too. Because in the past, when I really got into like apologies, like acts of apologetics, people don't know I'm a pastor, I'm a pastor, I'm a pastor, that's my calling. And I know the word, but I don't know other people's religion or, you know, outside of the understanding in the form before. Now I do, but before that I did it though. So I just use the word in my defense, you know what I'm saying? And I try to use like spiritual words like, "Oh yeah, the blood that cracks with anoint you and sanctify you and cleanse you, all your unrighteousness." You were like, blood, flesh, what are you talking about? Yeah, you know what I'm saying? So people won't understand that kind of talk, you know what I'm saying? The Holy Spirit changes your heart, mind, like, how am I gonna do heart? They gonna give you surgery? Like, what are you talking about? - Right. - They call, that's called Christian ease. - Yeah, exactly. I think, I think one thing, this story always gave me plenty in the Bible. It's not, it's funny about the same time, it's good. It's Jesus and Nicodemans, you know? When Jesus told him, "Is he born again?" - Yeah. - "Is he gonna be born again?" "I gotta go into my mother's womb and come back out." "How could a man go into my mother womb and come back out? Were you and me?" - Yeah. So Jesus was speaking Christian ease. - He was speaking Christian ease. He's talking about some side, you know what I'm saying, but it's funny. - It could be necessary. - Yeah, it could, it could. - But what I wanna read a quote from William Lane Craig on how to answer this question, and you don't have to say it word for word, it's something like this, but I just think it's so powerful. It says, so in answering, how do you know Christianity's true? He says, my friend, I know Christianity is true because God's spirit lives in me and assures me that it's true and you can know it's true too because God is knocking at the door of your heart, telling you the same thing. If you're sincerely seeking God, then God will give you assurance that the gospel is true. Now to try and show you that it's true, I'll share with you some arguments and evidence that are really fine convincing, but should my arguments seem weak and unconvincing to you, that's my fault, not God's. It only shows that I'm a poor apologist, not that the gospel is untrue. Whatever you think of my arguments, God still loves you and holds you accountable. I'll do my best to present good arguments to you, but ultimately you have to deal now with arguments, but with God himself. And I just think that's such an eloquent, respectful response 'cause he's saying how you know it's true by God's spirit, but he's also saying, don't take that as an argument for me showing you it's true. Let me give you the actual arguments that I have in science and philosophy and theology and take that as you may, but and this is good for new believers and believers in general, we're not responsible for their conversion into Christianity, that's God's job. We are here to plant seeds, we're here to be ambassadors for Christ, which is a representation of Jesus and be faithful to him and God, his Holy Spirit will change the unbelievers in John 16, seven through 11. We see the Holy Spirit's ministry is active in unbelievers and that he's convicting them of their sin and of his righteousness. So we're not, you know, I know so many people and I've done this as well, have felt responsible as if I leave this conversation and they haven't accepted Christ, I failed. But I don't think, I mean, I've never had this happen, very rarely will you come across someone that drops all of their beliefs and worldviews and commits to Christ in a single conversation. So we shouldn't have that expectation. We should instead plant seeds and let God do what he does best. - Yes, I think literally the verse came online out of time. (laughing) But I think 1 Corinthians chapter three, verse six or nine. It says, some people who plant seeds, you know, and some who are water, but each will receive the greatest according to the labor. And it says that also God will get the increase, you know what I'm saying? So that's the key thing. God is the one who gives the growth. He's the one that gives all the extra stuff. So I plant and he said, some will water, but God will get the growth or the chance they be the increase. So that's literally key, Paul, especially that light. Now everybody is gonna get people to convert or to reciprocize right there and there. You know, that's out of your will is power, you know? God is the one who draws them to his grace and mercy. We just get plant seeds, some will water. That time goes on. I mean, I had countless people who I ministered to and they didn't get it right away. But I remember I had this one guy. He was a singer and everything like that. And I met him at my job before when I was talking to him, working at a market. And he sings and everything. We just connected with singing and stuff. And as time goes on, I ended up connecting with him with music and all this kind of stuff. And then I started to like minister to him. And he never got him. He was a black guy, grew up in church. He just fell away from it. But as time goes on, fast forward, I think maybe like two years ago, since I moved from California and two years ago, recently, he called me or text me and be like, "Ava, I gave my life to Christ." Out of the blue, out of the blue. I was talking to God for literally probably like three years, four years, whatever it is in that. And out of the blue, he literally text me. I didn't text me, he text me. And he was like, "Ministry that he's working with." And I was like, "Ministry." And he was like, "What happened?" He was like, "Yeah, I gotta say." I was like, "You gotta say you're ridiculous." I liked the crowd. That's amazing, man. I mean, he was like, "Hey, praise God." I mean, you see, I play the season. As time goes on, it's my watering. I got the increase. So that is one testimony. I can tell you countless people who I ministered on the street and they didn't get it. But as time goes on, literally, they gotta say later on because of watering, yeah. - And yeah, that's a great story. And there's people, I mean, yeah, there's Christians that they're called evidentialists who they believe evidence is not necessary as anti-Christian, but then that's because that they confuse the relationship between faith and reason and they don't understand it. And the Holy Spirit is at work in our reasoning in that the Holy Spirit can use certain arguments that we raise and pieces of evidence that we raise to a non-believer and have that dwell on someone's heart. And Greg Cocle from "Stand the Reason" calls it putting a rock in someone's shoe. So when you, like what you said to your friend, you don't know what it was, but it was something that you said that was a pebble an issue, something so small that was just not so obvious when you were speaking that he was walking around and probably thinking, what did Rich said something about the beginning of the universe? And I just, I can't shake it. And eventually that grows into a plant and that's faith. A short story of something similar, my little brother was an agnostic and I had just gotten into apologetics. And I was reading "Jesus Skeptic" by John Dickerson. Really good book, but he gives a lot of reasons for Christianity as being true. And we were at the dinner table and we were just going at it. And I was just so bad at my apologetics. I was loud, I was angry. Like if I was him, I would not consider Christianity at all. And he, you know, we went to sleep, woke up the next morning. He's like, "Hey, Jake, I'd love to go to church with you." I'm like, "What? Why?" Why would you want to go to church with me after what we just had last night? And he doesn't even know what it was, but it was something that was said that the Holy Spirit used in his heart. And I don't care what it was 'cause all I care about is the Holy Spirit harvested what was going on. It could have been a countless number of things from years on out, from different people to show him the existence of God and truth of Christianity. And that's just the way it works. We're gardeners and some are hard visitors, but I think most of the time, we're mostly gardening. I want to go over four quick points of why it's important. One, the Bible commands it. So as we see in 1 Peter 3.15, always be prepared to give a defense. So that's the Bible telling us as believers, we're responsible to be prepared. Two, the culture demands it. And that's because, you know, we live in such an anti-Christian culture and it could get to the point where the obstacles surrounding the gospel could be so overbearing that it'll be hard for people to receive the gospel. So it's important that we go into the culture and we spread the gospel, we spread the truth of Christianity so that scientists and scholars can not just write it off as a myth, but really consider it for the truth 'cause, you know, where do we get our leaders from? The universities. So we want to make sure that Christianity's not looked at as Hinduism is in the United States. 'Cause if someone came up to you on the street and was preaching about Krishna, would you take them seriously? Probably not. You'd probably say, okay, thank you. We don't want Christianity to be like that because it's objectively true. So we want to keep pushing the culture. Three, the church needs it. Research has shown that three in five young, you know, young people leave the church by 15. And that's heartbreaking because who is the most important generation, the next one? So we want to make sure that we can keep them in the church. And most of the reasons what they gave for leaving the church was like sexuality, exclusivity, doubts that they were having. So these are things that apologetics deals with in particular. And then the last thing I want to touch on and I'll give, I want to hear your thoughts on these four is the results confirm it. You know, there has been countless people who have come to Christ through apologetics. Lee Strobel is one of the most, I think, influential ones of our time. William Lane Craig, I don't think he came directly through apologetics, but he now is actively doing apologetics. We have guys like Frank Turic, Jay Warner Wallace. These are all scholars and people who've dedicated their lives to finding the truth of Christianity because there's evidence for it. And then Act 17, I mean, if you guys are, you know, if there's any believers listening and your Bible believing Christians, go read Act 17 and see, pay attention to Paul's language, persuading the Jews, convincing non-believers and Gentiles. These are powerful words that he was using to prove Christianity being true, not just say believe because I said so. So apologetics, yes, is not necessary, but especially in today's culture, extremely, extremely beneficial. - Exactly, exactly. - It's like borderline necessary. Like I said, I can name countless of other people as well to that, apologetics helped them to build a faith, help them to come to faith and all those kind of things. And one guy I listened to a lot is Dr. David Wood. He was an atheist before and he became a Christian through apologetics and he's big in apologetics now in the Muslim area, that's why I learned a lot of stuff from my material from him. But literally, he was an atheist and this dude didn't have no foundation whatsoever. He didn't come from religion background like us. But he didn't, but once he saw the evidence for God physically and also spiritually, he cannot turn away from God no more. He just out fully convinced and he fully gave in to the faith and to the Bible, to God and to Jesus fully. And that's what he does now as apologetics defending the faith and this goes around the world to preach the gospel and give people a strong foundation about Christ and his resurrection and everything like that. So definitely key, it's very important for believers to tap into this and I just pray that everybody listening with this, understand that the reason why we need a project is not only for us, but for also of those who disbelieve and your family members, your friends, to actually share them, defend the faith. 'Cause a lot of times, if we had believed we're going to have that strong faith or that strong foundation, it would hinder our faith. And I've seen the countless times, like you said, with young teenagers, whatever, for their sexuality, for what the friends told them, the influence and then if they don't have the foundation or the biblical understanding of the truth, there will be sway by lies about what's going on in the world. And that's literally key. I have countless people who, even people that went to theology school at the faith, because what they seen or whatever or what they heard, they didn't have a foundation, they just went to school and they heard all these kind of different understandings and this and then like that. And then it is her, they didn't actually study they sell. So when they go to the school, theology, whatever, they're like, I don't want to believe in this. Like, what? You didn't really study, you didn't study for yourself. You're trying to hear what the people say, but don't actually study for yourself. That's what hurts you. So it's very key for you personally to go and prepare yourself to defend your faith against your own lies, thoughts. 'Cause this, I mean, this is a key thing right here. And not just for physical people, it's for you too as well, because your mind will play tricks on you all day long. The interview will put lie at the lie and all this kind of thing in your mind. But if you have a strong foundation and you have the word of God in your heart and your mind, not taking a hint of you, you won't ever never hurt you because you have a foundation in truth. So there's definitely- - And Frank Turic from Cross-Examined, he's an apologist and he goes to different college campuses. And if he ever encounters someone who's hardened to Christianity, like it doesn't seem like they're receptive and want to hear the truth, but just want to make points to disprove it, he'll ask this question. And I recommend asking this question to people who are listening and have family members who are very hostile to it. And the question is, if Christianity were true, would you become a Christian? And it might sound like a crazy question, but he's had students that know. - Yes. - And at that point there's no point of pushing any further because their hearts, they've already decided that they're not going to believe. - Already in mind. - Yes. So your evidence isn't gonna be, you could have the best evidence and it's not gonna matter. - Yeah, I literally, I literally seen this video before of other politics. I forget what politics, I was listening to people that book this Islam and everything, but literally he asked the Muslim guy, he was like, can I have a defendant, he was talking about Jesus' resurrection and crucifixion. And if you people don't know the Islamness that they go against that. But he asked them, if I can show you evidence for the crucifixion and resurrection, would you believe it? He said, no, I still wouldn't believe it. Because they in a mind that he already convinced that their word is true, you know? So there's no point of even going through that. So yeah, that's definitely key. - Because you need a common ground, you know, when you're using apologetics, when you're having any type of conversation, you need common ground. And the common ground that we have as human beings is reasoning and logic. But if we can't find that common ground in that truth is objective and evidence is substantial, then we're not gonna get too far and we need to agree on that before we push into evidence for Christ and if Christianity is true. So that's what I would recommend before diving into these arguments, pieces of evidence. I would make sure that you get a good common ground. 'Cause that's what Paul did in Acts 17, right? He would, for the Jews, he would use the Old Testament showing Christ. And for the Gentiles, he would quote, and by Gentiles, I mean non-Jews, for the Greeks, he would quote the Greek philosophers. He didn't quote the Old Testament for the Greek philosophers 'cause they wouldn't care. They'd say, we don't know what that is. So you gotta find common ground with people and your conversations would be so much more fruitful. So hopefully our hope is that through this season and the rest of our episodes, that you could find common ground with others and use the information that we've gathered in your conversations and hopefully break the barriers so people are more receptive to gospel. - Exactly, exactly. Yeah, I could type a more of that but I don't wanna make this episode too much longer. But yeah, that's definitely key. I had to learn that myself personally 'cause if I just, if you just go into a conversation without really knowing, their reason why they believe what they believe, that's why I ask the question, if a person is an ex-Christian or a person that grew up in church asking like, what happened, you know, what's your background? And you go from there, that wall will probably come down because a lot of times you talk to parents and that's on the street or whatever, you're a total complete stranger, whatever. So you share your personal faith and who you are and whatever ever go from there. So yeah, that's key. - And yeah, and if it's okay with you, I would like to end our episodes with a book recommendation. - Yeah. - So that are related to our episodes. So for this one in particular, I would recommend, I don't have enough faith to be an atheist by Frank Turic and I would also recommend Tactics by Greg Cockel. Tactics has changed how I go about sharing the gospel. So I highly, highly recommend it and I don't have enough faith to be an atheist has just an abundance of information. So Case for Christ is also another one by Lee Strobel. So three books there that could help you out as you grow in your apologetics going forward and as you grow with us. So we're excited to keep on going. Rich, do you want to pray us out? - All right. - And if I ever think of it, it's time to get a Lord Jesus to take a grace and mercy. Lord, we just pray that the people that are listening, we just understand how to defend their faith, know how to defend their faith. And it's a secret word and God is even more as today. And Lord, we just glorify you, praise for all the people that are listening. And pray, Lord, that they're able to continue to touch their hearts and their minds and give them understanding of who you are and what is truth and have a strong faith in you. And we just pray this in Jesus name, amen. - Amen. Thank you guys for joining and be sure to check us out in the next episode.