(upbeat music) - Meow and welcome to Band Books Conversations where radical readers discuss prohibited prose. I'm your host, Tanya Todd, and we are here to talk about band books, literary works that have been removed from a library shelf or school curriculum. Over the course of Band Books Week, this series covers seven different books, the reasons they were banned, and the value in reading them. And today's book is Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison. There will be spoilers ahead and not just because Dan's here. But before we get to that, let's meet today's radical readers, and let's start with Spider Dan. Please tell us a bit about who you are and what you do. - I'm Spider Dan. I'll Spider Dan and The Secret Boys podcast. We look at kind of obscure, underrated, or under-appreciated media, be it comics, films, TV, and other wild and wacky things. Lots of fun, strange, odd tangents we go on. But yeah, it's what we do, it's what we enjoy. But, and Tanya's been on many an episode, many a wonderful, enjoyable episode. And I'm very happy to be here once again on Band Books. - And Tony. - Of course I'm on mute, sorry in my life. Tony Holt here. - Thank you very much for having me, Tonya. - That's very symbolic. We're talking Invisible Man and you start off on mute. Like, well done, sir. Well done. (both laughing) - Yes, because that was absolutely and totally planned. - You're all. - Thank you for noticing. - My background in training is in human resources. My day job is as a program manager for a talent acquisition team, but my creative endeavors include Stince as a poet, an improv actor, a podcaster on a few of the wonderful podcasts that you and Spider-Dan have both had me on, and soon to be a published author of the comics lit volume one anthology, a collection of essays dedicated to connect modern pop culture, characters to classic works of literature. - That's right. - Coming out in October. (both laughing) - And fly. - Hi, so my name is Fly. I am right now in between working the corporate jobs. I don't think I'll be going back. So my writing is a full-time endeavor. I have been ghostwriting for a while, and I write reviews, and I cover festivals right now where in Toronto, and it is the major film festival I'm going on right now. So a lot of that kind of coverage and editing other people's prose. - Yes, thank you for being here right in the middle of that festival. I appreciate it. - Thank you for having me. This is the first time I've ever agreed to do a podcast of any sort. So I'll be very quiet today. - I hope not. So let me ask you this. What is it about the topic of ban books that interests you? - Especially in the climate where the world is right now, if it's history, you find they ban books or burn books when they don't want people to think. And it's a control mechanism that's devised. So ban books is a big topic. It's almost like a litmus test or a map to find out what their next agenda is. So if they ban books with LGBTQ+ communities, then you know there was going to be something that they're going to go after in that regard in politics. So you can, it's almost like a map of what's going to happen. And I also think it's important that we connect with different ideas and thoughts right now. And sometimes you have to look at the things that disturb you, to have an understanding of other people. - How about you, Spiderdam? - I have to echo a lot of those sentiments I think I was wonderfully put. I'm not a big fan of censorship in any form. I don't like the ability not to have access to information to entertainment, to anything, the limiting of my reach and what I can learn about and know about is very important. And I've never been a fan of it. I don't, even when it comes to very small, like cuts to films, like if you're showing it like an X-rated film before the water shed, before like 9 p.m. I don't like it because you're ruining the artist's original idea and intention, I don't like it. So I'm very much about people having their voice heard and for it to be heard. So I think any form of censorship and not letting the art be the art and what it's meant to be is bad. It's unfounded, I think, potentially can be dangerous as well. - And Tony? - Well, again, I would echo both what a fly in Spiderdam said. You know, for me, like so much in America, this isn't really a conversation. You know, it's an argument. One side is attacking the other side. One side is defending the other side based on what they do and don't like about these books or what some may or may not have said. So that's the podcast here, the dialogue we're having. This is the conversation and this is the conversation we should be having. Not just who's right and who's wrong, whose book should and shouldn't come off the show. You know, I don't support banning books. You know, I don't really think censoring material from view is the right move either. And the fact that Fahrenheit 451 is on the ban books list, the book that details the consequences of banning books is on the ban books list. That's enough for me to say that this is not the right way to approach literary works in this country. - And that definitely speaks to fly's theory that it's telegraphing the ultimate plan. - Yes ma'am. - So fly, have you ever had an experience with a book that offended you? And if so, how did you respond to that offense? - Many books have offended me and growing in high school, there was books that had things like, they were happy with slavery 'cause they got an employment and that was in my curriculum. So I was offended there. But what it did do was allow us to get a voice. We were like, the high school that I went to was like one of the first schools to have Afro Caribbean force as a credit towards your diploma. So it got us angry enough to say something. So I think that's one of the reasons why I've been, so I have had many books, even some popular books that are out now, I have issues with the perspective of the author, but I encourage the conversation afterwards and I just don't encourage the book. So if someone says, "Did you read the book?" I said, "Yes, don't read it." I'll say that to them on the side, but I would never say that book needs to be banned 'cause everyone has to make their own opinion or I'll give them the book as opposed to buying another copy so they don't bother sales so they can read it for them. That type of thing, but I don't encourage banning restrictions maybe, but on certain topics, but no. - Dan? - Yeah, I don't agree with the banning of books. In general, I have been offended by books. I think the depiction of women and certain kind of racist kind of depictions and ideas and things have offended me, but I've never got to a point where I'm like, this shouldn't exist, this shouldn't be a thing. If anything, it can be a lesson, we can learn from it, we can grow, we can look at it from a different perspective, maybe we can try and understand as offensive as it may be, we might be able to try and understand where that's coming from and how they're writing about it and what has informed them as a person, might be something traumatic in their past that has led to them writing or depicting things as that. But I would never, I've never been so offended. I said something should not exist. I've just gone, that's definitely not for me. I don't agree with it. I won't promote it, I won't support it or talk about it. I'll just put it to one side and say that I'm done with that. I don't need that to be in my life or to be in my memory because of that kind of poor experience. But then I still think we should maintain that memory yet, still, because I think it's important to have that and to appreciate that in a different sense. If I'm being clear at all with any of that. But yeah, so yeah, that's my feeling on it, basically. - How about you, Tony? - You know, I came to this actually with a couple of specific examples of recent books that I've read that I somewhat took offense to. And the answer, the response to both of them were actually doing the work, actually reading the book and doing research about it. The first one is a book called Bullshit Jobs, pardon my French, by David Grayber. I was insulted by it because the basic premise of the book is admin jobs like HR professionals aren't real jobs and they don't really need to exist because we're not making things. Immediately offensive for the 20 years of training that I've had. But as I actually read the book, I understood that the premise was more about, was it wasn't just about telling people that their work is worthless, but more about the disconnect today between the work we actually do and the impact we actually have in the world. And that interesting. The second example is a book called Principles by Ray Dalio. I was super into this book, thought it was great, started designing my life around my own principles and the guidance from Ray Dalio. As I learned more about the man himself, he comes across as a hypocrite who uses the standards and these principles to really manipulate others and hold others to a higher standard than apparently, reportedly, he holds himself. I don't expect people to be perfect. I don't expect that people won't change their minds. We have the right responsibility to change our minds with new facts and new ideas present themselves. But if you are putting forth an ethos that changes at a whim to allow you to remain in power, that's not real. That's not worthwhile. That's just another system of control. - But the important part is that you did the work. - Just me. - You read the book and you developed your own opinion of it. And if those books hadn't been available, you wouldn't have been able to do that. - Yes, ma'am. - So Dan, is there any scenario where you think banning the book is the correct course of action? And if so, what is it? - No, I don't believe there's a situation where I feel that banning a book is, I mean, again, opinions will vary wildly on that topic and depending on what you see and right and how you interpret it. But again, I think it is a learning experience. Like we can contextualize it, recontextualize it. And I think it's important, you know, books like Mine Camp are still out there. You know, they've not been banned and you could argue they should be banned that book, but it is still out there. And I think it's an important part of history. And again, it's something we need to remember. So, you know, hopefully we don't, even though unfortunately there are people out there who want those kind of ideals to return, I think it's important to know that that is an important book historically. Even though, again, you don't agree with it, you don't agree with the ideas in it, but it's important to know that that's out there and to be studied and to be looked at and to understand what that was and what type of the time of the world, what historically was going on. And again, yeah, there's a lot of those, but even that, I think it's important because again, we don't wanna repeat the mistakes of the past. We need to remember these things and keep them around and remember them in order to, you know, again, keep moving forward and away from those kinds of ideas. So yeah, I personally feel there's not a reason, but I can understand other people having reasonings and forward banning books. - And I think it has been banned in some places, but I agree, it shouldn't be because you can't fight against this if you don't know what it is. - Exactly. - You need the information available. How about you, Fly? Is there any scenario that you think banning a book is the right force of action? - I think when we ban for children, like there's certain topics I don't think young children need to be exposed to. So in primary school, I don't think grooming books to teach children how to groom or assisted with slide ideulation books for it. Like there's certain ways that if it's not within context and it was in a controlled, and I say control, which I don't like control, I'm big on freedom, but I do think that we have to be the children are more impressionable. So we have to make sure that there is a good context. So I'd rather you restrict certain topics for older ages, I think that's, but banning is not my purview. - And Tony. - You know, as I was doing my research for this, you know, I can't argue with the parent in North Carolina who brought Invisible Man to the school board and said, you know, Invisible Man's not so innocent, right? I get where they're coming from. I'm not a parent myself, but my heart goes out to the parents that are just fighting against the tsunami of 24/7, 365 digital media that is pushing people to the extremes just for likes, follows and shares and ultimately dollar bills, right? I get that she wants her kids to be kids just for a little longer. And I don't know the right answer here, but I know that the wrong answer is censorship. I know that the wrong answer is taking away the option for others to learn about themselves and this world. Banning books, no. Removing books from classrooms where teachers are actually driving true conversations, not the right answer. Content warnings, age-based ratings, sure. You know, help people make informed decisions about the material they have in front of them. And for those of us who are too young to make good decisions for ourselves, namely me, help our parents and guardians make those decisions with us, right? Give us that information so we know what to expect, know what to do and know how to use it. Don't just take it away so that we are defenseless against these ideas and these taboo topics in the future. - So, Tony, what is the value in reading books that might be considered offensive by some? - I've got three actually ideas and they actually quotes from people that I've read as well. The first one is from a gentleman named Jim Quick who wrote the book Limitless. And he often will say that reading is like standing on the shoulders of tribes, right? People put years, years into research, writing, rewriting, editing books to come out with this masterpiece, oftentimes a magnum opus like Ralph Ellison's Invisible Man. And you get to sit there in a fraction of the time, download all of that knowledge into your brain. And that helps you learn and grow faster and faster with every year and every generation in every book that you read. Tiago Forte who wrote the book Building a Second Brain, he, a quote from an Italian philosopher whose last name is Vigo, we only know what we make. The reading isn't just about reading but it's about what you do with that information, how you analyze it, how you integrate those ideas and make them your own. That's what's really important about the reading and what the value of reading taboo and different topics, you may not like it, it may offend you, it may be cringe, but it changes how you think, right? The last quote is something that Fly actually alluded to and comes from one of my favorite movies, the actor Lawrence Mason who played Lord Nikon in the 90s movie Hackers who said snoop on to them as they snoop on to us. How will you know what is going on with those who wish to take your power, those who wish to oppress you unless you're actually reading and learning what they're actually doing and actually saying? And you can't do that if you can't find the material. - Fly, what are your thoughts on this? - I think of Toni Morrison and she says that they, any type of art is a weapon against dictatorship and censorship and control and not educating the masses. So for me, while I agree, I do think that we do need to read what other people are thinking so we can find a connection because there's always an understanding or way to, it's a magnifying glass of some of its art. So you can really see where they're at and there's a way there's connection there somewhere. There's a possibility. And even if they don't want to be connected, at least you understand what drives them. And if you remove it like everyone has said already, you won't have an idea. So, yeah. - And Dan, what's the value in reading books that might be considered offensive by some? - I don't know how to top the other two, the other two guests, frankly. I think-- - About a competition that's a conversation. - I know, I know, I know, but these guys are so good. So I think, again, forming your opinion, being critical and thinking about, and again, taking in that information, forming your own opinion, forming your own critique, your own ideas, your own feelings on stuff is important. You know, you might disagree with it hugely. Again, it might be horrifically offensive, but why is it horrifically offensive to you? Why does it command that response? Why does it say something? It says something about you the way you're reacting to it. And I think that's important to better know yourself, your own identity and who you are, and what, again, would trigger that response in you. What is it about your history, your personal, you know, emotional baggage, whatever you wanna call it? It's a way of better knowing yourself through the art and the reflection of society culture, and this particular writer or, you know, creator of whatever they've created that may so affect you. I gotta say I love that, that idea of your reaction tells you more about yourself than whatever it is you're reacting to, that stoic philosophy that, you know, the only thing you can actually control is your reaction to what happens in life, and seeing and understanding that reaction will tell you so much about yourself. I love that idea when it comes to these banned books because when you flip those arguments on your head, what does it say about the person that brings that idea, that brings that book up that says we can't have people reading this? What does it say about that person? What does that reveal about who you're actually dealing with? I love that idea. - Yeah, and look at that, you brought something of value, Dan. Maybe there's a reason you're here. - That's, I surprise myself sometimes. - No, it's definitely insightful and it helps you grow. And if a person's not willing to grow and challenge themselves then it lets you know who you're dealing with and that, yeah, the short, the insightful part is so, many books that disturb me, I then go, what's, why is this disturbing me? Like I spend time, it lives with you. And then it allows you to, if you are open to growing. Yeah, that's really gonna keep that, keep that in top of mind when you're writing something yourself as an author, that you're uncomfortable with your own value system, but your character is saying, yeah, this has to be done anyway. - I like that, I like that. - Thank you. - So fly. In recent years, there's been a pattern in the themes of the books that are being banned. What do you think this pattern says about where we are as a society? - It mirrors the discourse in society. The banned books have increased by like 96% in the last five years. And if you think about what we were dealing with in five years ago or roughly five years ago with the pandemic world, a global pandemic and all the civil unrest with all many marginalized groups, rights being threatened, it makes sense that the book numbers are higher. Now, I don't think it's good that it's, I'm not saying it makes sense that we should do it. I'm saying it mirrors what's going on in the world. And art, like books used to be the biggest entertainment before there was television and everything else. So I can see why that would be one of the first targets they're trying to attack because it's an intimate experience when you're reading a book and it really does make you think about things. So I think it's indicative of what we're dealing with in the world right now. Ironically though, other forms of mediums are so wide open and so vastly spread, wide-attack books because they know it's a tech, I think they know how much it really has an eternal opportunity to change and open people's minds which then conversely touches their hearts and makes them say, yeah, I see myself in this and I don't like that part of myself or I want to be like this. - If I may extend that flight, it's also about scale because it's harder to stop or to capture or to kind of cordon off all of the digital media, right? It could be on someone's hard drive, it could be in a different server in a different country but you can pull a book off the shelf and it's gone, right? You take it out of the classroom and those ideas never come back. - Right, you know, I'm sorry I did one more thing and that's why I feel like hard copy books are so important. Like I do have a digital device where I can download books but I also believe that we need to keep the actual copy, physical copy of books alive just in case we have the wrong person in power that stops us, if we stop buying books and we only have digitally changed one word and changes the whole prose of that sentence, right? So that's why part copy books are important, literature is important and that this conversation is essential that we, I'm so proud of the people that are like right now, one of our biggest bookstores in the country is handing out 10,000 books and a three of the 10 book thousand books are on the band book list because they want to make sure that this is not something that gets to be hidden. So it's important. - I was gonna add to the accessibility of books, you know, there are kind of age ratings and restrictions or content warnings but all you need to access a book is a library card, that's all you need and you can get that. And I think that's the perceived danger for certain groups of those books and those ideas is that they can be so readily accessed. And I think that's their problem with it. So I think that's why they go for books as opposed to, like you said, other media that could be inaccessible or what have you in different, you know, Disney deletes, you know, series and TV shows aren't doing it so well, which is a form, I guess, in a way of banning and stuff and getting rid of things that they don't think have value. So yeah, just to echo what you were both saying, absolutely. - And they're already doing things like changing the text in books, like, oh, let's just switch it. So it's less offensive and it's like, you know, I might be less offended when I read it now, but now it's no longer an accurate reflection of the times of what the story's intent was. Like, I don't want those words to be changed and if I have a problem with them, then I can choose not to read them, but I want to know what it really was. I don't want you softening it so it's more palatable for me and then me thinking that, for example, I read, the first time I read, it had, it's a book that had just the N word all through it and the first time I read it, it was changed to native. - Oh, really? - It's part of darkness, sorry. I just, I could not think of it. - And it did my tongue, yeah. - And it was like, why? It was so long ago, it was, you know, it just seemed like a strange choice, but okay. And then I found out that it was changed, like, oh, that is an entirely different interpret, like that's just an adjective, you know? That is not, there's nothing offensive about the word native, it really just means that you are from that area and so I felt like I had been swindled, not that I like hearing that word, repeatedly, I don't like hearing it, I don't like saying it, but that's my choice, like that's for me to determine for myself and I could have decided that I didn't want to read the book anymore and I would have, I would have finished it, like it has enough merit that I would have finished it because I mean, that was part of the story. It just took away the experience and I don't think it was for the better because my interpretation of it was that, you know, people's concerns about this book, like, what's the big deal? Oh, well, I didn't get the real book, that's why. So it's not helpful, it's not helpful to do that. Do any of you have anything more to add about the themes and what it says about where we are as a society? - Yeah, I'd like to jump in and kind of piggyback on what you said, Tonya, because, you know, like you just pointed to, you were given something that had a completely different spin, a completely different drive, just by changing one word. And like Fly alluded to earlier, you know, that is about power, it's about control. Fahrenheit 451, 1984, both banned or challenged books that illustrate exactly what's happening. You control the populace by controlling the narrative and when there's no counter-argument, when there's no counter-narrative, you can't pick up a book or a newspaper that says things are or can be different, then you don't know what's possible and you're stuck with whatever those in power have given you. And that is just a perfect example of it. - Yeah, well said, who controls the past, controls the future? - Yes, ma'am. - So the three of us represent different countries, like all of us are from different countries. So, well, the three of you are from different countries. Of those countries, book bands are most common in the US, but it's happening in all three. So with all the other causes and freedoms under attack in our respective countries right now, why is it important that we continue this particular fight? And I wanna start with Dan for this. - I think it's a conversation about empathy and diversity and making sure people are acknowledged, heard and seen, which is very much part of this book, celebrated for our differences and similarities at the same time. And I think things like, especially like trans people are very much under attack at the moment for who they are and who they want to be and the lives they want to lead. I think it's so important, this conversation, to keep those ideas alive. And when I hear people talk about things like family values, the second I hear, I go, I know exactly what you believe in, and I don't like it. I know what that means to me, but to you, it means something else. It means something totally different. And one nuclear family, one idea of that, whatever that is, that old, timey style of society, which is-- - heteronormative family values. - Exactly, exactly that, well put. And I think that that's not the world we live in. As much as some people would like it to be, that is not the world we live in, it's different now. It's changing, it's more thing, it's evolving. And we should keep the conversations open, 'cause it is difficult to navigate all of these different things. I can't understand necessarily the trans perspective, I can't understand the black perspective, the female perspective, but it doesn't mean I can't try. It doesn't mean that I can't make the effort to learn and to understand and to be a better human being to everybody and everyone that I know, be it my family or anybody else in the world from whatever background, religion, anything in the world. And I think books are an important way of understanding others that you might not necessarily understand or to find a way to bridge that gap. So I think, especially this book was quite important to me. I really, it was, we'll get into it, I'm sure, but I think books like this are very important for those conversations and to have those uncomfortable conversations, but in a way that's respectful and that all parties are heard and understood and appreciated. So that's why I think. - Honi, why should we continue to fight this fight? - What Spider-Dan said was real, real powerful. And what I took from that was Spider-Dan's bravery to step up and wrestle with ideas that to his own admission, he may not know or understand or be able to relate to, but he would like to, and he would like to learn and grow and evolve from it, right? For me, this is about showing that we are not afraid and we are unwilling to see our power, right? Because that's what ideas are, right? Knowledge is power and the applicant, knowledge is information and potential power. The application of those ideas is where the power comes in. And if we're not learning and growing, like Fly said, if we're not learning and growing, then what are we doing? We're dying, you know? It takes me to one of my favorite bands from the 90s, 3/11. And Nick Hexham said it best in the song Silver. Don't fear mere words, 'cause if it takes a word to ruin ya, you should have already heard your finished through. And soon you'll see that stifling sentences is so much more suspicious. Much worse can come of that. This is, and I hate to use the phrase, but this is the slippery slope that leads to disenfranchisement, that leads to power being taken away because people in power are afraid to lose their power. - Sorry, you have us all smiling at your reference. (laughing) - Really? - For the whole of this conversation, and let me quote a little 3/11 here. (laughing) - I told you, I did my homework for this one. - You did, and you know what? It was a great reference. (laughing) How about you play? - We have to keep the conversation going, 'cause we just need to be more compassionate human beings. There is no option. And the thing is, a great thing about a book is that it's an intimate experience, so you can read it and be uncomfortable with it, wrestle with it, and then deal with, speak with someone in real life, and then have that conversation. It's like a buffer, a precursor to help you understand, 'cause a lot of, and a lot of, how many parents have had children in disenfranchised or marginalized communities already, who said, "This book helped me understand my child more. "This book helped me understand myself more. "This connection is so important and that it's the human gift, "and all other beings have it as well. "But I think that we are stronger together "when we galvanize, than we are separate, "and the books help us do that." So the conversation, it's a must, it's a must. - It's a must. Well, now we're going to talk about today's band book. According to Goodreads, Invisible Man was published in 1952 and immediately hailed as a masterpiece. One of those rare books that have changed the shape of American literature, Ralph Ellison's nightmare journey across the racial divide tells unparalleled truths about the nature of bigotry and its effects on the minds of both victims and perpetrators, giving an entirely new model of what a novel can be. Invisible Man won the US National Book Award for Fiction in 1953. The first time it was awarded to any black author. And in 1998, the modern library ranked Invisible Man 19th on its list of 100 best English language novels of the 20th century. Time magazine included it on its 100 best English language novels from 20, or I'm sorry, 1923 to 2005 list, calling it the quintessential American pick-a-resque of the 20th century. And I'd like to start this section by discussing why each of you chose to participate in this particular panel. So Dan, last year, you chose Charlotte's web and part of the reason was in keeping in the spider theme, but I think off camera, you also admitted that the length was a factor because you didn't quite consider yourself a big reader. And then here we are one year later and you wind up choosing the longest book in the series. There you go, look, I am evolving. I am growing as a person, look at that. Yes, I'm more of a kind of comic book reader, I would say. You know, more so, again, I struggled with dyslexia when I was younger, so comics were kind of an in for me and there's still a big love for me. And that's my kind of where I tend to go when I read. And I think there was another book on the list, but I think you said it was already taken. I think there was, I had again, some familiarity like with Charlotte's web. But then I, then you were like, oh, no, that's already taken, I was like, that's fine. Not to worry. - Yeah, that one went past. - Yeah, I can imagine, I can imagine. I think that was because I was there a movie about it. I can't remember what it was, but it doesn't matter. But I thought, let's have a quick look at all these books and make the decision quick, 'cause I know you need an answer. So I was like, right, let's have a quick look and just peruse these. And this one sounded the most interesting to me. And I thought it was a cool idea. And I like, again, I always try and inject, even into my podcast as much kind of diversity and different voices as much as I can with guests and topics and things, you know, international films and stuff. So it's always an interest to me to hear from kind of different cultures and appreciate things for that reason. So I thought this one would be quite interesting. Wasn't entirely aware of the length. And I did result to listening to the audio book, which was read by Joe Morton of Terminator 2 fame. And I love him and he's amazing and really brings this book to life. And again, his performance of it gave it something that I, you know, and the kind of references and the kind of the voices he chooses made it come to life in a totally unique way. And again, made me realize certain things I might not necessarily realize by just reading it. But yeah, I just, I found the concept intriguing and interesting and the whole perspective and also kind of historically the way America is and the history. That's what kind of pulled me towards this book, not the length. - Well, don't film guilty about using the audio book. I have to read all seven books in the series. And so I had to determine which of these are physical copies, which are going to be on Kindle and which are going to be audio books. And this one, I ended up doing both the Kindle version and the audio book version, but I had that same recording. And yeah, his performance was fantastic. - Oh, so good. - Absolutely fantastic. - Another level. I couldn't put it down. I couldn't stop. I just absolutely, just I was eating it up honestly. Just, I couldn't get enough of it. And he's fantastic. I love him as an actor anyway. But yeah, just a wonderful interpretation of that book. However you take in the book, I really enjoyed that particular version. - And fly, you jumped in at the last minute. I think it was two days ago. I told you that one of my guests might not be able to make it today. And you jumped in. What compelled you to do so with so little notice and with such a long book? - I remember the first time I read it. It stayed with me for a very long time. And I used to take train rides to, and bus rides to New York. And then I remember, and the voice would just stay with me. Every time I got on the bridge, I could hear the narrator. And that was maybe 15. No, like a few, I'm not even gonna say how many years ago. It was a while ago. And so when you brought it up, I remember some of the feeling started to come back. I remember taking, I took the bus from Toronto to Atlanta during the 96 Olympics, which is like a 24 hour bus ride. And the narrator's voice would pop up every once in a while. And so when you mentioned the book, I'm like, yeah, I wouldn't mind revisiting it. And it really impacted me. Why are we banning this? And I couldn't remember all the things that they would say. I remember some of the parts that they would think would be on the boat band list, but I thought, yeah. And also, we're such a great supporter of literature. And you've encouraged me in my writing journey. And if I could help, I would always say yes. - Well, I appreciate that. Especially learning that it's your first podcast ever. - Yeah. Our 11 into the book, I was like, why did I say yes? So quick Friday's this. And then I'm like, yep. I committed. - I committed all of the film festivals. - I think the film festival part was the variable. 'Cause like this morning, I was at a screening. I'm like, okay, let me see. She still needs me. Like what am I gonna do? - As soon as I had my answer, I was like, let me let her know right now. - Yeah. And traffic in Toronto is something else. So yeah. - So thank you very much for that. And then Tony, you are actually hand selected for this. And that's because you wrote about Invisible Man in your brilliant essay for Comic Slit. - Yes. - But you also, you don't usually do these types of shows. So why did you say yes when I asked you to participate? - Well, as long as I'm coming in loud and clear, apologies for the technical difficulties. Yeah. Primarily, because you invited me, Tonya, I can't say no to you as I have learned recently. - I agree with you. - That's number one. But yeah, as I was working on the essay for Comic Slit Volume One, you know, this was about a year ago where I started writing about the Invisible Man. My essay is specifically about how the, comparing the unnamed narrator in Ellison's Invisible Man to King T'Challa in The Black Panther as written by Ta-Nehisi Coates in one of the latest Black Panther runs. And in, as I read Invisible Man and as I love Black Panther and was reading Ta-Nehisi Coates' run, I could start to see how both authors were really developing their characters as individuals who were struggling to define their identity and their own power and agency that comes with that identity in the face of a city, a country and even a galaxy of oppressors. So when you let me know you were doing a podcast about this, I couldn't say no to, number one, couldn't say no to you. Number two, I had to be a part of this conversation because, you know, I've been so steeped in Ellison in Invisible Man and some of his essay work. I've been steeped in Coates, not only in his Black Panther run, but of course his famous 2015 book Between the World and Me. I just really wanted to see what more people than I and my partner thought about this, what other themes came up from others and especially in the context of, you know, what kind of surprises me as a band or controversial book that really just talks about the truth of a person's experience in 1940s America. Yeah, so that's why I'm here and why I have been, why I have been so enthralled with this conversation. - Well, I appreciate all of you being here for various reasons. And I think, I hope you all recognize the value that you bring to this particular conversation so far, but if not, I will make sure you know by the time we're going. So, fly, I-- - Sorry, go on, go on. - No. - I was just wanting to, with the comic connection, with the book and with what Tony was saying, I recently did a podcast on The Amazing Spider-Man 2, your feelings on the film, you know, our valid, whatever, you believe about that film. But when I re-watched it this time, 'cause I'm reading this book, I kind of actually had a different appreciation or new appreciation for the Electro Jamie Fox storyline because his story in that film is about not being seen. He has his ideas stolen by the white Ozcorp owners and they're used even though it's his design, his work. And he's ignored and put down and, you know, disrespected, nobody knows who he is. He's a nobody, but he feels that Spider-Man sees him. And I had a new kind of renewed appreciation for that character and that kind of story arc in that film, which I wouldn't have had without reading this book. - I am now going to go back and watch that movie. Thank you. - That's so exciting, Dan. I now have a reason to watch that movie. - Yeah. - And like it's Spider-Dan who brings the Spider-Man connection. - I was saving it. - I was saving it, but I was like, I can't not jump off the back of this. It's connected, the strands and the webs are there. Let's do it. - Yes. (laughing) - I know I interrupted you, Tonya, but I thought this is the only time I can bring this up. - No, that was perfect timing. - So I just, I want to ask what were everyone's assumptions about why the book was banned? And so I will start with you 'cause you said you were thinking about that when I told you that it was on the list. - I think the scene where, let me think of the name. The scene, the beginning of the book where they're talking about, I think it's chapter one, when they were talking about the character that slept with his daughter. - Oh, true blood, yeah. - True blood, that's it. So I thought, okay, maybe that's where, that was the first thing I thought of. I'm like, why would they ban this book? I'm like, oh, maybe that scene, they didn't really appreciate. And then that was the only thing I thought I didn't have any other time to think about what else. - It was two days ago and it was like, you could read it or you could spend your time speculating. - Yeah, exactly. - And I think also the book has so much, makes you have an insight of the person's feelings and it brings people's humanity to all the topics that I thought, oh, they don't want us to feel, they don't want us to have a connection, they want us to be disengaged with each other. So yeah, this book here did make me feel a lot of things and saw black men differently at the time. So I figured, oh, they don't want us to see each other. So this is why this book's gonna be on there. - What about you? - But now I'm watching The Marisians Spider-Man 2 and I can't wait to see your comic book essays so I can see the correlation. I'm gonna go for it. - Yeah, it's a brilliant essay, it really is. And he makes so many comparisons, like there were comparisons to the authors too. I was like, wow, like he really, are you Virgo Capricorn? - Oh, Aries, in fact. - Really? - So why? - It was very thorough work for an Aries. - Thank you very much, I pride myself on it, yes, ma'am. - But Tony, what were your thoughts about? - I'm sorry, Miss, you can't say that again. - Are you being judgmental on different star signs, Tonya? - I'm always judgmental. But sometimes I'm judging things as good. - Course, of course, of course. - Hey, if I'm in battle, I want an Aries by my side, all right? - Yeah. - Why do you do, what do you, I'm a Pisces, what do you want me? - In the water. - I don't know. - So I hope we have not digressed at all. Your thoughts on why the book was banned, Tony? - As soon as you, so I have to admit, I'm new to the man books conversation. As soon as you invite me, I started doing my homework. The first thing I thought when you said Invisible Man was on the band books was, huh? And the second thing I thought was, oh yeah, anti-black racism, strong language, violence, sexual content, clearly it's going to be in there. But again, the book is conicaling 1940s racist America with the authenticity of a person who actually lived it. Ellison actually lived these things. In his life, many of the jobs that the narrator, that his unnamed narrator has, are things that Ellison actually did, worked in a plant, was a shoe-sider, was a teacher. Like, it just boggles the mind that America likes to forget the fact that less than 200 years ago, people who look like us, Tonya, fly, were not considered people. And all manner of disrespectful and inhuman language and actions that appear in this book were in fact the law of the land. So it's clear to me why this is a banned or a challenge book. - All right, think about the symbolism in not naming this character, like we don't ever get to know the narrator's name, even when the name changes. - And what does that say about identity and power, right? What does that say about who you are and what it means to have a name to own your name? That makes that theme is a big part of my essay as well. As in the Ton of House of Coats run a black panther, you see T'Challa lose and gain his name, lose and gain his power as it comes with that name or with the many names that he brings. I would say you could probably see that in your own life, the names that your parents call you, your friends call you, the people that, you know, people who may be your bosses and leaders versus those who may be your peers and subordinates, those names will transfer you to different places where you have more and less power, depending on who was saying it and what they were saying. - Mm-hmm, yeah. And Dan, I know I haven't asked you yet because you usually go down the research hall, so I want to know, did you just make it late first or did you look into it? - I actually, I tried to do the opposite of what I did last time, so I've tried actually not to read anything upon it. I tried to just experience the book as it is and get from it, you know, any messages or themes and stuff. So yeah, last time I was kind of like, "Why is this bit, my shoulders wear bin bands?" Let me have a look and I'm like, "What?" But this time I was like, I had some assumptions going in. I was like, I think it's going to kind of practice critical race theory. It's going to show kind of, you know, America's bigotry towards black people. That was kind of my main assumption. It kind of is kind of what the book is about. That's the main kind of the identity and the conflicted nature of who we are, what we want to be, our history, our past, what does that make us, how does that inform us and our identity and how we want to be seen or viewed. So yeah, kind of my assumptions about it. Again, I didn't assume what the book was about. I didn't know, you know, entirely all the kind of details that are usually, again, I like to kind of research and stuff. But after this, I feel more, I'm more interested now in actually reading upon all the things I've learned and all the different aspects of the history and what the narrator goes through. So I'm actually kind of glad I didn't, I didn't research it, I'm looking to it and kind of, again, form that. - Oh, there's a value in not having things spoiled for you before you-- - B, B, B. - There might be some, yeah, there might be some benefit to that, yes, I think so. But yeah, so that's why I approached it this way. So, but yeah, again, everything that's already been mentioned, kind of the language, the violence, the some of the political ideas and stuff, I can see why certain people would want to ban this, I think. And yeah, especially when it comes to the Todd Clifton character and what happens to that character, no spoilers. But yeah, that was, again, very powerful. And again, unfortunately, it's kind of symptomatic of what America still is. And this could have come out yesterday. This book could have easily come out yesterday and still be as powerful and still be as relevant as it was back in the '50s. - And the only difference would be cell phones. They're in the cell phones in the text, you know? - That's so true. - Remember who it is, you know? (laughing) - That's so true. And I mean, that, I hope you don't mind, Tony, but what Spider-Man just said really segues into, you know, my answer to the next question, you know, what was my reaction to this book? The more things changed, the more they stayed the same, right? Like you said, this could have been written today and we would have seen the exact same things happening now as happened then and it reverberates on into the past. And as more and more books become banned, it will be reverberating on into the future and that is a travesty. - So I want to be clear about why the book was banned and it's something that you mentioned earlier, Tony. In 2013, the LA Times reported that Invisible Man was removed from Randolph County, North Carolina, high school libraries because one parent lodged a 12-page complaint citing its lack of innocence, its language and sexual content is inappropriate for her 11th grader. School board member Gary Mason said he didn't find any literary value before the board voted five to two to ban the book. And in 2021, a school district board in Palmer, Alaska voted to remove Invisible Man and four other books from the school curriculum as well as removing the New York Times learning network as a teacher research. And the concern cited by the board was that sexual content could cause controversy. So I am curious, what are your thoughts, Tony, on the reasons for why the book was banned? - I just want to examine that phrase that you said, sexual content can cause controversy. - Right, it's not even that it does, it's just it could cause controversy. So can anything. - And isn't that the point, right? Like, isn't that what we should be doing? Right, we should be, again, I think fly set at best. If we're not learning, we're not growing. If we're not being challenged, we're not going to change. Right? It shocks me that we have leaders in this country that talk about, you know, making America great again by dumbing down the populace, by keeping the big ideas and the controversial viewpoints from us, those things that would make us think different, think, make new and innovative thoughts, think in new and innovative ways, because innovation disrupts the status quo by definition, and that is a direct threat to people in power. So it doesn't surprise me that someone would say that. It doesn't surprise me that one, it all takes as one parent to say it's not appropriate. What surprises me is the board that said, there's no value in this book. What surprises me is that when two committees of educators say this should stay in a smaller group of those in power say, no, we're just going to take it out because we find no value in it, which I will say the only saving grace is that 10 days later, that same school board overturned it. And even one of those gentlemen, I can't remember the exact quote, but even one of those gentlemen said, he thought about his son's time in the service, that his son went to war to fight for the freedom, the freedom to read and have access to the materials regardless of what others may think is objectionable. And he said, my vote doesn't support that. My vote flies in the face of that, and that's not right. - Yeah, that's great. And it is an example of one of the times where the book was returned to the shelves, a book that never should have been removed in the first place. - So what are your thoughts about why it was banned? Dan? - Again, I think it goes back to the kind of age ratings that Fly was talking about. And I think those are fine. I think content warnings are good as well, you know, as long as they don't spoil anything, Tonya, of course. But I think that's how you gauge whether something is going to be upsetting to you or if it's something you're not going to enjoy or like, or if it's too young for somebody or children in particular. I think that's a good gauge. Again, you're not censoring it, you're not changing it, you're not rewording it. You're just saying, this is what it is. It contains these things. Are you happy reading those things? If not, don't read it. It's not for you. Just leave it, let it go. But then maybe you do want to read it. Maybe you do want to have those experiences. And again, challenge yourself, grow, learn. And again, I think it is, it's about choice. Ultimately, we should have the choice. We should have choices. We should be allowed to make those choices, you know, whether they're good for us, bad for us, whatever. We should have the ability to choose. And clearly, this one woman had an issue with this book. This one person out of hundreds, thousands, millions of people in that country. For her 17-year-old. For her 17-year-old. Who has definitely heard of sex. [LAUGHTER] Yeah, for her 17-year-old child. And they had four options. It wasn't like he had to read that book. They had four options to read over the summer. So she could have just left that one alone, saying, no, son, you're not reading that book under my roof. And the other three you have to read. It's two out of the fourth year to read. And again, they had choice. They had the option to read. They had choice, yeah. And she wanted to remove that choice. Exactly. She wanted to speak from everybody else. Exactly. Which is, for me, not on. So yeah, absolutely. And I have to say, if my parents said this book is off limits for you, it would have been the first book I read without their permission. Right. Yes, there is a benefit to burning books, because it means people go out and get them. Exactly, that's what's happening, right? Yeah, exactly. So that's the one benefit. Did you have anything more to add to that play? It did speak to the power that one woman has, and certain demographics have. And it just reminded me of the power that she had to take away from all the other parents and children that scares me. And it's still something that was prevalent in the book as well. Oh, it was ironic. And I don't believe the other board member even read the book. Oh, of course not. I was like, yeah. Oh, something from the book that wasn't on the back. And then I will believe that you read it. And then-- Tell me how this National Book Prize winner has no value. And that's the power of that book, like in 1953. Can you imagine? Right. It's one of the first own voices stories to get any kind of publication and recognition. It was so great, it's gorgeous and our vernacular, you know? Yeah. But that one goes under better. That's the thing as well. The people that usually call for the banning of things often haven't seen it or read it. They've maybe heard somebody have an opinion on it, or, oh, it contains this scene. It contains that. And they go, oh, we can't have that. But have you read it? Have you experienced it? Have you formed your own opinion on it? No, because they hear one thing about the book, and then don't want to hear about it. Don't want to experience that on any level. And if they're so easy to let other people make decisions for them, maybe that's why they think they should be allowed to make decisions for others. But yeah, that's not how it works for me. But also, the powers that be also want that. They want people to feel like they have the opportunity to say that's enough, and that's it. No one else informs themselves. So they're going to encourage people to write a 12-page letter. Or to copy and paste that 12-page letter, right? The Organization Moms for Liberty, what is it? booklooks.org, and the targeted reviews that they put out focused on providing parents and activists with boilerplate templates and information to use for bookmanics. It's not just-- like you said, Fly, it's the power that one person has, but it's also that power backed by an organization with specific purpose and specific designs. Yeah, excellent point. Thank you. I didn't know that existed. I'm not surprised, but I'm glad you bought it too late. That's-- So Tony shared his reaction to as a reader. Fly, you shared a little bit, but I want you to share-- tell us more about your reader reaction the first time you read this. Outside of reading it for this panel. I used to have-- I was very political in my friends' group, and they used to say to me, I didn't understand why people-- racialized people wouldn't have a voice, wouldn't stand up. And I didn't have enough empathy for people who just wanted to get along and not make any waves and second guests making their power at being feel uncomfortable when we had the liberty to start speaking up. And this is in the '90s, so it's not-- I think we benefited from all this work that was done in the civil rights movement beforehand. So when I was reading the narrator at the time, I felt-- I understood-- I saw the wrestling and how they didn't feel courageous. And I understood that-- it reaffirms what I felt like if you didn't stand up, you were going to be on your deathbed regretting it all those times would come back to you. So when the grandfathers that premise, it really held to my heart. But then I started to have compassion for those who don't have-- are not built for that courageous, and they just have to get along. And instead of being angry with them, because those days I was like, yo, if you don't stand up, I don't have anything else to say to you. If you don't vote, I don't care if you think the system's quick. If you don't do something, then don't say anything to me. I was that way when I was younger, and then I gave me more compassion. It made me understand that it's a struggle and that everyone has. I encourage that everybody's angst in that fight is valid, and to still care for them. And for those of us who feel the need to do it, we do it for all, for the collective, and don't see that character as a person who's benefiting from the boldness of others and not having their own smaller wins. So that's so powerful. I'll cut you off, I apologize. No, no, OK. So I just made me have more compassion for those who don't stand up. And that's that story that you shared with us. Thank you for sharing it. That's so powerful, because that reflects well on what you just mentioned, right? The narrator's own journey from going along to getting along to becoming an activist, becoming a person who takes on his own power once he becomes a member of the Brotherhood to try and confuse and obfuscate the Brotherhood once he learns their agenda to try and fight against their agenda. By I cannot remember the quote, but by confusing-- yes, sorry, I'm to death, as the grandfather says on his death bed, right? Play the game, but play in your own way. Something like that, which I found very powerful and very-- yeah, just spoke to me that line as well. What else was your reader reaction to this, Dan? I really quite related to the narrator in a lot of ways. I have-- I come from a very kind of working class, northern background, where I was born and grew up was kind of a seaside town that's lost its luster, let's say, and a retirement town. So there are a lot of what I would say, not views I would hold, especially in the locals and in some of my family members as well. I completely do not agree with some of the things that they say and the way they discuss and talk about certain people. I'm haunted by some of the things my grandad has said about black people. And I love him dearly, and I miss him every day. But I can't countenance that, really, because that's just not who I am and what I believe. And I go out of my way to not fall into those trends and those beliefs. And it's kind of almost, unfortunately, part of my history. And that's why I think I related to the character, because there is that kind of the conflicted nature of him and him trying to understand and trying to do what he feels his best for the society, for the others, in his community, for himself. And he's looking for various kind of father figures or leaders or a better understanding of who he is and how to reconcile that. He tries to do good, but only seems to just affect him detrimentally, he tries to be the best person or what he believes to be the best. And Dr. Bledsoe, he says, you know, you have an idea of the things that-- the way they should be, but these are the way things are. And I think sometimes, you know, people see me as maybe-- might be seen as kind of a political idealist sometimes. But, you know, when I feel something is right and when something is wrong, it's fundamentally wrong. And that's why I kind of related to the character in a lot of way. Again, I can't fully relate to his experience on all levels. But I still think there is something universal about this story and this character to put everyone to understand whatever your background is or race. I think there is something uniquely-- there's something here for everyone, I think, to learn from and to grasp that and to challenge yourself and to find a way to grow and, again, evolve and change and appreciate-- or try and appreciate-- the absurdity of this world and the things that you find strange and, again, very conflicted about. And, yeah, so I'm so glad I read this. I think it has made me a better person. I think it's made me-- I think I've grown massively because I've read this book. So I've found this book very important for me. My personal journey-- and, again, I'm talking about this with my therapist, a lot of this stuff that I'm talking about now. So we'll consider this a free therapy session as well. And where I want to take my life and who I want to be and what I want to represent and stuff. So, yeah, a long story short. I found this a very important book. I'm so glad I chose it. I'm so glad that Tonya brought it to me. I'm so glad I could experience and talk about my experience reading it with all of you guys here as well. Well, thank you for being open to it. Absolutely. Because it can't work. You can't recognize the value if you're not open to it. Yeah. It shows the capacity of your heart when you can be impacted that way. So, yeah, it's a-- it's better than, like, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I really appreciate you guys saying that. So, fly. What are the reasons people should raise invisible man? What are the conversations that can start? It can touch your heart. It can help you understand people at their-- at their worst, we've all had parts where we're not a proud of. And if you have compassion for this character, you get to see the internal struggle. And I think it just opens your heart to be open for growth and seeing yourself and other people. The fact that there was no name is one of the most brilliant aspects of the book for me. Because we can put ourselves-- and it almost-- there's a gender, but not really. Like, you know what I mean? Because it's more about his internal emotional struggle. Struggle not taking away his gender because that is another factor that affects who he is. But, you know, yeah, if a book can touch your heart the way it's anticipated and all of us in the panel in discussion today, and it lives with me for years, then that's the kind of thing that we need to help us be pliable to change the world for the better. So that's why people need to read the book. Dan. Everything I said earlier, I think for me, it's been a huge-- I can't appreciate the idea of this book not being in my life right now. I think because it is so-- it's impacted me in such a fundamental way. And again, I've related to it on so many levels. I think it's important for everybody to read again. And I think it could, again, I think it'll make you a better person, a more understanding, more compassionate human being. And how can that be a bad thing? And Tony, you should have the last word on this. You wrote a whole essay about it. Thank you very much. For me, Invisible Man, it may be a story, but this is history. It's what happens in this book is real. It has happened. It continues to happen to disenfranchise and marginalize citizens of all shape sizes and colors in this country. It is a fictionalized account of the reality of Black America that reverberates today. And it needs to be studied so it can be understood, preserved, and prevented. We fly-- you have worked in corporate America. I work in corporate America today. The opening lines of this book, I have seen them in my life as a 20, 30, 40-year-old Black man. I am Invisible Man. I'm Invisible, understand simply because people refuse to see me. When they approach me, they see only my surroundings themselves or figments of their imagination. Indeed, everything and anything except me. Yeah. Yeah. Sliding that sit in-- like to settle in, sit in it. Very well said. Thank you all for such a fantastic conversation. This has been great. Tony, tell people where they can find you and support your work. The best place to find and support my work will be October 1, I believe, when volume one of the comic-slit anthology drops. Again, you'll find my essay list in here amongst many of the great authors that we have. Tonya Todd herself included here. And Spider-Did, did you put an essay in comic-slit that I missed? I did not, so I did not. Maybe if there's a volume two, maybe I'll dabble. Oh, there will definitely be a volume two. Ladies and gentlemen, out there on the interwebs, volume two is in the works. If Tonya-- if I'm not mistaken, we've got plans for volumes 3, 4, and 5 as well. Yes. There's definitely a spot for you, Dan. And just while we're here and recording for the world to see, I am already planning on roping you into it. There you go. There you go. You've trapped me. You've spanned me in your web. So that's the place to find me, ladies and gentlemen. Comic-slit, volume one, hitting the shelves at 4 Horseman Press this October. And if you happen to be in Arizona, you can come find me and Tonya Togg and a third offer, A. A. McCartney, at King Kong in Kingman, Arizona, a comic convention. Arizona's had more and more of them sprout up. Tonya, thank you for finding this one for us. And I'm looking forward to representing 4 Horseman and 4 Horseman Press and representing comic-slit. Why? Where can people find you and support your work? Well, you could find me on ID. I'm going to be embarking on October 1st journey with the artist's way for the next three months to push myself to publish more of my writing. I normally leave it to a few or family members steal it and share it. So I will be posting more in the new year. So that's why you'll be able to find me. Do you want to share what your handle is so people can find you? Well, yes, that would be helpful. Freudian stuff, I kind of-- With your first podcast, you're not used to doing the end-of-show spiel. That's true, that's very true. So it's fly in HD. And I'm on IG that way. And Facebook, I think it's fly in the size. And I will be more and more out there in the coming weeks and months, and I will follow all of you, because it's been-- thank you guys for having me a part of such an SDN panel. You guys are great, and it's inspired me even more. In Spider-Dan, you are no stranger to the end-of-show wrap-up in pitch. Where can people find you and support all of your crazy conversations? Crazy conversations. I just want to say, Fly, I think you did an amazing job on your first podcast. You're an absolute pro. Yes. Natural, natural. But yes, you can catch me over on Spider-Dan and TheSecretBalls.com as in boring, but the podcast is anything but. That's B-O-R-E-S on Instagram and Threads. I'm not on Twitter anymore, so ignore that cesspool of horrid stuff. But yeah, it's Spider-Dan's Secret Balls on any of those social medias. And yeah, we do all sorts. Tony has been on a huge amount of podcasts, all sorts of different topics that we've had a lot of fun with. Batman, The Crow, Angrier Films, you name it, lots of cool stuff. And next year, my patrons have picked that we're going to do a theme month, which is linking very much back to this. We're going to do a band movies month. So if you enjoy these discussions this year, next year, whenever it happens, we need to work it out. Tony has got a list of, I've given her a hundred and fifty films to choose from. We only need four. Overkill, just absolutely overkill. It's okay, I love lists. She loves lists. It's over on Letterboxed, if you want to have a read. And it's also on there with the reasons they were banned as well as wide arranging and as ridiculous as you can find reasons for banning films. It's Spider-Dan and The Secret Balls on Letterboxed as well. So go see the options that Tonya has. Whatever we pick, we'll be there. And we'll have a good selection of guests as always. But yeah, again, I'm blessed to be part of the band books 'cause I think this is the best thing, one of the best things I've been a part of, one of the best podcast journeys experiences. So again, I feel blessed to join you guys and for Tonya for having me and exposing me to this book as well. - And I also want to mention that Dan is responsible for the reels that come out every day when we are promoting Band Books Week. He takes the recording and comes up with a little snippet for us, which is just so helpful because it's very time consuming to do these things. And I appreciate your help with that. - My pleasure. I'm sure I'm doing lots of busy work right now, hurriedly trying to get all these clips together. So you can thank the future version of me. - Yes. Thank you, future Dan. Well, that's it for today's conversation. If you enjoyed what you heard, please like, comment, and share. Thank you for listening, and more importantly, thank you for reading. [BLANK_AUDIO]
