(upbeat music) - Okay, listeners, Defender Burley, 2024 is here and it is absolutely mouth-watering. It is, I think, possibly one of the most exciting Burleys that I've certainly looked forward to and we are going to break down the field. We're gonna have a closer look at who is going to be stood on top of the podium, hopefully, by the end of the show. Dee, Sam, and Catherine, all with me. I'm just gonna dive straight on in because we have got so much to get through. So I'm gonna start with you because this Burley field, 10 nations represented, eight five-star winners in the field. It feels like a vintage Burley. It feels like, dare I say it, possibly the best Burley I think I've ever seen. - Yeah, and it's a real treat. I didn't actually foresee this. It all makes sense and we'll go through it on the podcast as to why it makes sense that we're seeing so much quality here. But we had seven five-star winners at the Rio Olympics and I remember how excited I was about that. We had seven five-star winners going into the Petoni World Championships and I remember how strong a field that was. And we had seven five-star winners actually going into the Paris Olympics. We have eight five-star winners here, trumping all of those big majors, those big championships. It's really interesting, it really brings the four, something really naturally evolving that's happening in the sport, which is the five-stars are becoming the real pinnacle and people are tackling them. We have specialist horses for this level. I'm quality horses too. So it's an incredible field. It's the highest field strength. We've seen it Burley on record and yeah, we've never seen eight five-star winners lining up here. It's setting a lot of records already in terms of quality. So look, we're getting very close, getting very, very close to kick off. And I think they'll all stand there ground and I think it's going to be terribly exciting. - I feel like there's going to be a few arguments on this show listeners. Healthy discussions, I should say, rather than arguments in terms of actually who might come out on top at the end of it. Head and heart might have a bit of a battle to play as well. - Deep, before we go any further into Burley 2024, let's reflect a second on last year's Burley because all of a town ends third victory. He won with Baltimore class, making it, what, six years between Baltimore classes to Burley victories, which is quite extraordinary, 2017 to 2023. We had dress our records breaking as well. Last year was pretty special. It feels like we've got a lot to live up to. - Yeah, in a way, what I mean by that was I actually felt, I felt last year, for me, a huge amount of the excitement that I felt that if I speak on a personal level for a moment, actually came from the entire spectacle. I was there and it felt so different. I catch when I said to you a couple of times when we were there, like, I never really, I never really knew what everyone meant. Burley, because we didn't work up Burley for so long in the early years of equidings, Burley was always this thing that I heard of and we knew events, Sam. You remember, like, the events that we knew inside out, some of them true event writer masters. I remember I'd been to Blair like so many times because of the Europeans, when yourself and Camilla were competing there in 2015. Then we had the event writer masters and the call where me and you were there so many times. There was certain events, Blaine and Blair, there was a few at Embabement and that I'd been to loads. Burley was this other thing that I used to hear people talking about in kind of hush tones. Even Sam, you had a totally different, I don't know, I'd seen you have multiple badminton's and then Burley, I always remember you kind of talking about it differently. You always used to talk about it in a year at the cross country of Burley wasn't something that you, I don't know, talked about it with the same comfort levels as to the multiple badminton's that you've completed when I knew you. So what was very special for me was being there, seeing it, feeling what they all talked about all that time and the call personally, that was as much off the field of play as it was on it. You know, what, getting your feel for the way an event flows, getting your feel for all of the media, the size of that media center catch and all the space, all the excitement. So the result was great. Obviously, the action was great. Obviously on a personal level, Sam, the cross country day was amazing for us to be part of and to witness you doing that on Saturday. But Nicole, last year for me, I just got it. And that's a big part of, you know, on top of all the sport that we're about to discuss. If anyone is listening who hasn't been or who does still believe in that kind of other amazing thing that lives over there and hasn't yet had the opportunity to do it, I'd really recommend it. It's calm, but it's huge, you know? It's easily accessible and yet it's this major, major sport and event with, you know, tens and tens of thousands of people there. It was a really special year all around last year. And I think this year we're gearing up, you know? And as I said, we're about to dive into the sport in action. But I think we're gearing up for something, for something really, really special. - I always feel, I have to admit, when you went to Berkeley for the first time last year, really proud of it because it's kind of my local and inverted commas and so I look forward to it every year. I mean, it's less than an hour away. So it's still a little distance. But it's the kind of place that you go and you just can't help but pinch yourself and think how lucky are we to be here. You can't take it for granted every time you go. And I think it is unbelievably special and whether you've been 50 times, whether you've been once, it is just one of those places that never kind of fails to take your breath away. Catherine, I know that this time of year for you is always, I'm not sure you have a chance to step back and enjoy the beauty. We call set with Martin and with Lucy and Hayley Moore on the last show, this and it's kind of got a bit of an insight into everything that's been going on behind the scenes. But just quickly, how is life for you and have you got a chance to take a breath? - Life is good, and Nicole, of course today's look. We're a few days away from Berkeley. There's no reason why anyone should know but I'm the press officer at Berkeley. So obviously it's very special to me because I'm so heavily involved. But I've spent the vast majority of my career as a journalist. I still think of myself as a journalist. And what we've got at Berkeley this year in terms of field, that's why I'm so completely thrilled and excited and slightly overwhelmed by it. Because yeah, Berkeley's a fantastic event and I absolutely love it. It's interesting, isn't it? If you're British, you tend to have a loyalty to one or the other. If you grew up in the West, you love badminton. If you grew up in the East, you love Berkeley because those are the ones you went to first as a child. I think Berkeley is exceptional as an event, but I would say that. I am however completely and utterly thrilled by this year's field. And surprised to have such a large field, such a very, very high class field and such an international field is as exciting for me as someone involved in the event itself, as it is for someone who loves the sport and is involved in it in lots of different ways in a more fiscal way, I think. - Let's talk about the field for a second because actually, strongest early on record and it's well up there with some of the best competitions that we've seen over the last five years as well in terms of strength and depth. And there's a couple of really notable inclusions. I have to admit, I did quite an exuberant happy dance when I saw Roscantra and Lordship Scraphaloe appear on the entry list because that is huge, the reigning European champions, they've won badminton. That is an enormous, enormous entry. They've of course been to Paris Sam. I just want to touch on that with you briefly because we've got Colorado Blue, Austin O'Connor as well. With your riding hat on, talkers through that, obviously the Olympics wasn't that long ago, but these are two horses that didn't do a long format in the spring. - Yeah, so if you're doing a four star short, you're typically going to have an optimum time around seven minutes, seven and a half minutes, like a chat's worth around a seven, seven and a half minute potentially very hilly, potentially soft ground. It's going to ride like an eight and a half minute course and you happily go on and treat that as a prep for a five star. Like it brings on the fitness, it gets you kind of 80% of the way there. So the Olympics was a nine minute course, pretty flatish ground, definitely top of the ground, good ground, I know they'd had a rain shower, probably just took the sting out of it, but it certainly wasn't soft or holding anyway. And these fives, these horses that have won five stars already, being around 11 and a half minute courses with undulations, going around a nine minute course to them, they're well within the comfort zone. So to turn around, they've not had that long format earlier in the season. So they're pretty fresh, it's probably peaked their fitness and it's probably bought them on. And I would say Lordship's Grafalo in particular really looked like he needed the run in Paris. And I think it's going to leave him spot on for this. And I call that wrong, like when I was previewing Paris, I liked the fact that he hadn't had a hard campaign, he'd had the easiest season that we've seen him have for a long time. And it felt like everything was all roads were leading to Paris, but then he just looked a little fresh, like in the dressage, you know, a little bit more on his toes, a little, just not quite as buying there as London and Chipmunk who had been to Lemulen and being to Aachen and had much busier campaigns. He actually just looked a little, a little fresh and I think he'd be spot on for this. - Let's talk about Lordship's Grafalo for a second then. Ross Cantor, she's got Islot D.H.I in the field as well, who will, I'm sure speak about too, but Walter, strong favourite on the prediction centre. I think he's up there with a 27 cent win chance, which is strong for Burley. D, your thoughts on him at Burley. I feel like this is such a mouth-watering opportunity because, you know, they're going to be a combination on championship duty a lot in the future. This could be their Burley chance. - I don't think they're, I don't think they're likely to shine a championship in the way that they're going to shine at this level of sport. You know, like, I don't, I think it's going to be very difficult even for an amazing horse like Grafalo. The structure of championships, and God knows, people who are listening to this podcast for long enough don't need me to go back into it. But when you shorten the course, as Sam is talking about, particularly when we're talking about the Olympics, you've got to be first-faced performers and like look at the two, like look at the 17s that we're seeing at a championship. I don't think Grafalo gets near a 17, but I don't think- - You're a European champion though. He is a European champion. - Oh yeah, and absolutely, but I don't think that Graf, but I don't think that I don't think Grafalo worry- - It was a tough cross country day, wasn't it? - It was a tough cross country day, wasn't it? - He's, he's, he has put, I know you're, I know that that's, I take your point in history, but the only thing is he did push London fit very close on British soil this year. He was, they were, they were, they were very close at the likes of Victor. - I tell you where it won't be very close on the cross country course around early. Like London's not going to be here, but let's be honest, like, the London Fisher Chipmunk are so much lightly, more lightly to be ahead of, I kind of used to think Toledo might be able to get down there at one point. The way we used to talk about Toledo was edging and edging and edging, but like honestly, to be getting to like comfortably in that 23 to 25 phase, or scores in the first phase of sport is incredible. I personally, I put Grafalo closer to that than the others who sometimes are able to get into the sub 20s, but are normally around that 20 mark in London. I think you've got London and people like Fisher Chipmunk can probably be a couple of others still to come who kind of merge at that championship level. I don't think any of those horses will catch London or will catch Grafalo on a birdie course. I thought what we saw at Badminton, where we saw those that tough weather and Colorado blue and Grafalo kind of skipping around it to some degree, the difference is the 10 marks in the first phase, like the difference is Grafalo actually is able to do that on a 23. And I think there's very few horses who have that sort of, it's not to take away from this and it goes sub 20, it's only to say, I don't think my excitement around Grafalo is going to come as much as a championship, as it is, as what we're about to see. 27% win chance is absolutely enormous. Like that is Fisher Chipmunk and his prime going to Protoni and I know he didn't win, but it was an unbelievable level of win chance. And I mean, go back to some of the previous ones that we've seen. They're usually like dotted around 15 to 10% in terms of the top five. That would be very normal out of five star. For a horse to be coming in here on a 27% win chance is, it reflects the power that this horse has in each phase. And it's not an underdog story and it's not a redemption story and it's nothing to do with Paris. It's everything to do with an absolute beast of a five star horse that I think will, yeah. Well, I think just of course things can go wrong. 27% win chance is 73% chance they don't win. Okay, but all of the jigsaw pieces are here for this to be a very, very low dresser score possible leader, an absolute exhibition on the cross country in terms of their ability and their speed. If it does turn out to be a tough day, this should be one of the fastest and a very good jumper. So like, yeah, I want to see and enjoy this horse at what they do best. And I think that's going to be five star level. And I think that's going to be early. I've been in context last year. Oliver Townend had the top three on the production center. And they were at 14% 13% 12%. Balamal class ended up with a 12% win chance going into the competition. You know, to see Grafalo at 27% is huge. I think we should enjoy him. I think it's a great opportunity for Roz to, I think, I don't want to say get over Paris because she's still an Olympic team gold medalist, but it would have hurt her to have had that result on paper, even if it wasn't a justified result, whatever it may be. And she will be coming here with a bit of a point to breathe more fire in her belly, dare I say it, if that's even possible. I thought that having to wait in the wings in Tokyo and then come out at the Europeans with all star B and then it unraveled. And I think that was potentially the, ever since then I've seen Roz as the coolest chemist competitor in the sport. And I actually don't think, and I don't think, I don't think she partially won bit on her mind for, you know, and I don't, I'm not against using it in the narrative and I'm not against us hyping it up and using that because I like doing that. But actually the insight on Roz Cantor as a person is I think she's a brilliant brilliant role model for kids because I always get the feeling with her in a really healthy way. I think she could, if she had to walk away from the sport, I think she could. And some people might think that's a bad thing. You know, they want people who, this means everything, this is live or die. You know, this is absolutely everything. I think she's really, really professional. I think she leaves no stones unturned and she's brilliant attention to detail, ruthlessly competitive, but then is able to just park the emotions and just get on with life and go and chill out with her daughter who's just probably running around causing havoc somewhere in the rider's tent. I'm just be completely normal about the whole thing. I just love her temperament. So when you bought that up, that's my two cents on it. I don't think she'll be out to, to prove it. I think she'll just want, I think she'll be in such a healthy headspace of just wanting to do best for both horses. - I'm mostly with Sam and it's interesting. A lot of riders say, oh, you know, I've moved on. I've left that behind. It's the next event. And I don't believe a lot of them. I completely believe, Ross. - Yeah. I think it's interesting. So I'm talking about the points at which that happened. Was it about 2017, 2018? I remember a time, I think it was a badminton sport was being dominated by Michael Ingrid, Janelle and probably Andrew Nicholson still at the time. Those big winners, big names. I think all star be kind of arrived at badminton, not with a big podium finish. But I remember it feeling like all star be in a way. Maybe I'm thinking someone like, oh, well Emily King doesn't really fit the profile because maybe Tom Jackson, but it felt like maybe what, maybe actually the way that the boys, David Dole, Tom Jackson, stepped forward a little bit last year. I think there was an all star be result of badminton, which felt like a break through. And Sam, I think it's really interesting and a temperament point as to how where that moment comes. I wouldn't have the insight to know when it happens. I'd agree with you in terms of, or I'd listen to your insight in terms of the potential points. I do think the success, you know, going back to becoming a world champion, I do think the success makes it a lot easier, Catherine, to part the murder days, you know? - Yes, I think I've said this fool, but I remember her interviewing her years and years ago, put something probably 2013, 2014, before she'd done any of these things. And she said then that she had struggled with self-belief. She struggled to believe that she could do it. She was good enough or the rest of it, which seems so different to the roles that we see now. So I think it is something she has built and developed. - You're right, there was a great badminton result. And she was the surprise winner of Wake. And that sort of, that happened, she wasn't, you know, she wasn't a kid, she wasn't young, but it happened quite quickly, those things together. - Yeah. - Perhaps that gave her that final, whatever she needed in her game. And it's now, she's like, she's got a seal over it. It's there, it's done, it's there. I think she's, all top sportsmen have to build a compartmentalized extremely effectively, but I feel the role does that particularly well. Today, I am an event rider, and I'm completely focused on what I'm doing. But this Sunday, wherever I'm a mother, one is eventing, that's slightly hyperbole, but I think she's, I think she's very focused. She's very aware of her strengths, of how she needs to present herself on her horse. And she's, she appears to be, as Sam said, immensely calm and to have the most enviable temperament of anyone, anyone currently in the British sport, at least. - It's really interesting because it was 2017, her break through year of badminton, and I think she finished, I want to say fifth, went on to stragong to the World Championships, to the European Championships, sorry, later that year, went very well, and then it was the following year, she went well at badminton, then the World Championships in Toronto, and it all happened as she stayed quite quickly. - There's a fascinating interview, and I will say it because I did it, but it is honestly one of my favourite, favourite ones of all time, when Nicole met Ross, nice little plug there for you listeners, but she talks in it really candidly about how she had to get a system for going cross-country, and Chris Bartle has been instrumental in her success in that, but particularly around, and she still says it now, she doesn't particularly like going fast cross-country, you know, she has to work quite hard on it, and it's just a really interesting insight into her mindset, as she's kind of bridged that gap of going up to the five-star level, to all of a sudden being a world champion, and to being a stalwart on British teams, and she, there is no denying it, has an absolutely incredible temperament, and I think she loves it when people say to her, "You just have to do this." And Chris Bartle gave her a system, and that system is hugely, hugely effective for her, and she implements it very, very well. I want to move on, because she's also got his lot DHI in the field as well. One thing I would just say on Lordship's Graphalo, his six-run average is 23.0, that's the average of his last six internationals, that's actually the best of any horse in the field listeners. The horse with the next best six-run average is a lot DHI, Ross Cantor, who would take a bet on Ross having the top two spots after dressage. And you take it, Sam, what do you make of that? - I think that the other person, we're right to leave with Ross. She's the worthy favorite. We're right to leave with Graphalo. He's won badminton, he's won a European championship. If he performs to his best, I don't think they get close to him. I think it'll be one of those where she'll have a fence in hand on the last day. She might even have two, but the time she goes in, honestly, I think they'll be absolutely in their own league. But she's only won three majors in her career. We talked about the World Championships back in 2018 with all the Star B, we talked about badminton, there with Graphalo, the Europeans don't count 'cause they're four-star rather than five-star. And then Isalot did win post, this is her second horse. She might be there, but the person she has to fear is the man who's won eight five-stars in his career. And he only wins the big ones. There are, there's a grand slam in this sport, it involves Kentucky in which he has won three times, four times, four times. It involves badminton, which he's won once and it involves barely, which he's won three times. He loves these, he loves these grand slam events. This is his bread and butter and that's all over town. And I think even in that first phase, I think it's a big, big battle between those two. You're right to bring in Isalot to the picture. Third on prediction center, strongest phase will be dressage, is typically a good show jumper, but was leading Poe and had two down, where did that come from? But I would forgive that. I think this horse is a good jumper, just a bit spooky. Spooky horses tend to do better at burly than they do in other arenas, for whatever reason. It has a warmth to it, not just the humans feeling it, but the horses feel that. - It's the Northern atmosphere. - You're all welcome here, going calm place, happy place. - Look at this, not the name. So they, yeah, sorry, I've gone prior to North there, but that's fine. And I, but I think Oliver has a habit of bringing out big improvement in the first phase. You've also got Vitali, who put in the silly score from last year. So I don't think it's as simple. Like she absolutely could. Look, it depends on judges too. You know, like they scored the first few horses. Like the morning session at Thursday last year was really disappointing for me. I thought good horses put in good tests and didn't get great marks. And then Tim came along and did a lovely test, but like he's two show jumps clear. He's eight penalties, 20 seconds, eight penalties clear of people doing 26, his 27s, which was a phenomenal test. If you could go and get a 26, 27 on Thursday morning, you were doing an absolute peach of a test. So she's gonna have one on Thursday morning. She'll have one on Friday afternoon. I've no doubt that the one on Friday afternoon will pull out an absolute parallel of a score. Will her Thursday morning one get low enough? I don't know. It depends on the judges. Katherine, I want to ask you about Cooley Rosalind that Sam kind of touched on there. All of us obviously at the reigning Burley champion. Her dressage, I feel like I don't really know quite what to expect. So last time out at Belgium, she did 19.8. Before that in Kentucky, she did a 31.4. I mean, that's nearly 12 marks different. Before that burner market, she did 23.4. Before that Thor's be, she did a 30.8. Before that, Marilyn, 23.1. What can we expect in the first phase? Because I'm thrown and I haven't seen her in the flesh enough to know what it is. Yeah, I get your points. I think the point is though that she's only 10 and that she's improving all the time in big atmospheres and she was, you know, to quote the mind of herself off her head at Thor's be, first time out. Kentucky, the warm-up, whatever, she was excited, didn't quite go right, don't really know. But I'm not going to guarantee anything. But if she's going to improve, she's going to keep improving, she's only 10. I think she will do a mid-low 20s. I don't think she's going to do a 19. I think that's highly unlikely. Although, Friday afternoon, you never know. And look, Oliver's only got her to concentrate on for sure. But I, yeah, I just think she's 10, you know, and she's getting stronger all the time and will expect and will see better things from her. I don't think she's going to do, you know, throughout Thursday again. But he is a target. I take this with a pinch of salt sometimes. I talk about it in racing about target trainers. But he genuinely, like he doesn't even, he doesn't even treat Lemulen the same as he treats the majors. Yeah, that's very true. And they turn up there like Swallow Springs and Balamour class even. He always has the fit, like he's a proper fitness program. He gets his horses properly fit. He's old school. He has fit horses, blood horses. And so at a one day event, when you rock up and you don't have as much time and you have these fit athletes ready to go and you don't have as much time to acclimatize them, work them as much as you would to just get them settled. Yeah, they're not going to be quite as on the button as they might be when you turn up for a five star. He knows he's, for me, I think it's reliable that he'll get a few more marks out of them, particularly about him in the early years. You know, peaking at the major target rather than beforehand, which sometimes, perhaps didn't work out for the fact she didn't get to Paris on that front, possibly. But she said he will. In a say, that kind of will stand to me in good stead for Burley, but it hasn't, didn't necessarily line the pathway for Paris because others went out and picked up other big results. I think you've got to go around and develop in Derrino. Like I think if you put this into where we were last year with three all of our town and horses coming in at the top of the prediction center, the narrative that you had to run was around the greatness of Balamor class. Could they deliver on that again? Then suddenly Tim emerges with a big dressage test and you get this secondary story emerging, then you get this 12 cross country day and you've got the boys coming true. Galileo Nimwood and Capel Solo Drift. And then at the end, even with Rails down, you get your, you know, your Harry Meade and young Cavalier Crystal, and then you get the class of Balamor class coming true. I think this feels different in terms of how I felt going into this, in that I think this fabulous, fantastic horse, in a way like we talked about Balamor class last year that we have at the top in terms of Graffalo, as this unbelievable competitor in all of our town and with also another five star winner in Rosalind, who I totally agree with you guys, knows how to peek a horse at a peak event. And I put that like little cocktail together and put it up against a great horse in Graffalo. And I think you get, you start feeling the spark and the magic of big rivalries and big competitions development. We saw it a couple of times at badminton with big riders. I think you have something, I think you have something brewing here. - I'll give you a cocktail and a rivalry to hear me burn. Okay, the highest rate of 12 year old horse in the world currently is Lordship's Graffalo. - Miles Kerr, by the way, on ratings. Highest rate of 12 year old in the world, European champion, badminton champion, talked about him loads of favorite. Highest rate of 10 year old horse in the world, Cooley Rosalind, just been talking about him all over town and eight time five star winner, winner of Kentucky. The highest rated 11 year old horse in the world. Okay, so 10, 11, 12, these are horses, reaching maturity, out maturity, peak physical condition, proven performance, but still full of potential. Highest rate 11 year old horse in the world, green acres, special couple year, badminton champion, ridden by Caroline Powell, former Burley winner as well. I think that is, this talks to the whole theme of this Burley preview, but the whole theme of Burley 2024, which is we are laced with quality. We are laced with five star winners, major five star winners. And there are three champions, three five star winners, three. And they are the best horses of their generation. Cooley Rosalind, Lord Church Grafalo, and in the middle, green acres, special couple year. I think that's going to be a fascinating contest as well, because I do think they're worthy. And it's going to be interesting to see whether Caroline finds a little bit more improvement, first phase, finds a few less time penalties, maybe. That's going to be another question Mark particularly with Burley, but she's a writer who could eke out that little bit more improvement as well in this youngish horse. - If we're going to put Oliver Roberts Ros, one point in each of their favours. Ros obviously has her weight in her favour, which as we know, cross country is significant, mud, no mud, whatever it is. What Oliver has is an intimate knowledge of Burley. He has ridden a great many more horses, round Burley than Ros has, who hasn't been that often. And I do think it is probably a place that benefits from knowing. - Yeah, I think that's a very good point. I was just going to pick up very quickly on Green Acre Special Cavalier at Caroline Powell. In my mind, she would never have necessarily kind of suited the terrain of Burley from a stamina perspective, but actually I was very impressed with their Blair results. She obviously won Blair at the weekend, which was a real stamina test. And that would have, I think, given her a huge amount of confidence going in, she was by far the quickest of the day cross country, significantly quicker than the likes of his lot DHI and Ros. And I think that win actually puts them on a brilliant pathway coming into Burley. I want to touch upon one more horse before we, in terms of kind of the dressage contenders, these are the horses that are going to be well up there in the first phase. Specifically, the Burley dressage record holders from last year, who did the most beautiful test, Tim Price, Vitale. They did an 18.7, 12 months ago. And I was commentating on that test actually alongside, I don't think it hurt, was now. They basically were sat there kind of going, yeah, can't really say anything constructive about that. It was really good. Yeah, really good, really good. It was just one of those moments in time that you remember. He is the most stunning horse. And actually, as a five star campaigner now, he's very experienced. He's been to six five stars. He's been top 10 in five of them. The only one he wasn't, which was classed as Tokyo, was listed as a five star on the system. He's been on podium at Burley before, and he was fourth here 12 months ago. He is exceptional. Yes, questions on the final day, but Tim is a genius. He will be very much in contention in the first phase. However, and I have been waiting for ages to drop this out. I think I found it last year and I got really excited by it. Tim Price has never made the time cross country at Burley. I thought you were going to say something positive. No, I was really surprised by it because he's had some amazing horses. He's a Burley winner and he's never made the time. I was really shocked. That's, you know, when Durham was saying in the intro that like I would talk about Burley in a different way, even to badminton and that thing of the comfort zone, like just the whole layout of the course and the features. So like the leaf pit slows you down. You've got to turn back to it up at the top. It's a steep drop off. You nearly have to trot into it, run down to a combination, like six seconds gone. Like by the time you go around the back of the trees, pop off the thing, like it really eeks away at the clock. You've got those cuttings crossings that, you know, there's not even a fence there for one of them, those big row crossings where you've got to dip down, but you break out of a gallop. Like that adds probably four seconds because you've got to slow down for it. You've got to be slowed through it and then you've got to speed up going away from it. And then you just have like the relentless nature of the terrain, which is fantastic. Like it's cross country, you should be. And it, but it's so pristine. Like the grass is just so well manicured now. The course is roped off for 12 months of the year. It's an absolute pleasure and a privilege to be able to gallop for 11 and a half minutes on ground that's that well-prepared. I do hope that water looking at the forecast, I think it's the one thing in the sport that we need to get better at is that we accept ground that's a bit too fast. You know, I think, you know, when we've seen quicker ground early last year, quicker ground at badminton back in 2022. So before the wet year, you do see more horses coming out of the competition between cross country and show jumping. They've finished the cross country, but they don't do the show jumping phase. You don't want to see that. And if you just take the sting out of the ground, that'll help. And it looks like from the forecast that we might need that. And that adds then to the stamina of it. So it's just, it's everything with birds. It's not just terrain. It's not just the size of the fence that you have to respect every fence, you know, your cots, more leaps and all of these. And then the technical nature that Derek Degrassi will add, like what he did last year was just masterful because he bought the modern fence design of cumulative questions. Nothing by itself was impossible, but you put 12 testing combinations out on course and you make people answer that in less than 12 minutes at full pace with stamina and everything like that. And the big occasion, the big crowds to hold your concentration, to keep your concentration under fatigue, real, really modern, really, really clever and caught people out little problems all around the course. Nothing that anyone, you know, not frightening any horse, not setting any horse back, just testing the top, the best of the best of the best. So like, it's perfect, but that's why a rider of Tim Price's caliber finds himself just two, three, four seconds over the clock when he's normally 10 seconds inside and wondering what he's gonna have for two that night. - I have to admit, so Derek Degrassi is possibly one of the coolest course designers I have ever met. I mean, nothing flusters him. He is so relaxed and he is genuinely relaxed. You see him on Saturday morning and he's sat by having a cup of coffee and would probably eat a bacon roll, whereas the rest of them absolutely wouldn't consider eating. I think it's his third burly. I feel like this is a really true Derek track. I think he's got his stamp on burly and I'm very excited to see how it jumps. If you haven't already seen the course preview listeners, it is out now on Burly TV. Knit luck and Derek Degrassi go and take a closer look at it. You get to hear Derek's thoughts on it, which are absolutely fascinating as well. Go and sign up because it is well worth an insight and you'll know exactly what is in store for our competitors before you head to the event. And actually, just gonna put it out there now, the main arena comes up early at fence four. That's going to be where the question starts. Been a little bit more straightforward in past years, but it starts to get me pretty early on. Right. - I was quite acquainted. - William Fox Pitt did the course walk for Horse and Earned. And you know what William's like? If he doesn't like something, he'd say it. And he was very, very complimentary about this and said it was a fantastic and very serious track, which, yeah, yeah. If William thought that it was the walk of the park, he'd pretty easily say that. So I thought it was quite flattering. - It's such a good event this, right? So like, okay, all the atmosphere and stuff that you talk about, but the feet, it's just so naturally, it's just such a natural events course. But now when you, like the only thing that you can do wrong then, or the only thing that you can get wrong is to just build a course that's either two, like I hate a big but simple course, you know, like just big in in your face, but no, like when you're thinking the only thing that's gonna happen here is people are gonna jump clear, or they're gonna tip up. And Derek is the opposite of that. Like he's just, he's clever. That's what he's looking for. And he invites you in and okay, like it does walk clever, you know, like you can see that there's questions coming up and you can think that you're gonna answer them. But it's masterful, like I can't wait to see it. Like I can't wait to see these eight five star winners and all these other contenders coming through as well. Like the top nine from badminton are all here. The top nine, like I mean, it's any, you know, and this debate, like one of the things in the sport is we didn't see one horse who set foot in the badminton arena this year, not one of them set foot in the Paris arena. So I've talked about that before in terms of, but that is benefiting the sport because now you have these horses who target. This is their job. They come out, they do their spring five star, they get a break, they have a little preparation, they come back to Burley. And that's why we're seeing the field strength is we have this, we have this natural rhythm and cadence back in the sport. You know, the majors are now the majors. This is where the best horses go for real eventing. It's not, it's not first phase bias. I don't wanna see the judges doing what they did last year, like when you, and go, I don't think we should see horses in the teens, I think low twenties is fine and fairness how they scored badminton was pretty straightforward. It just keeps that balance right. You know, if the average dress has scores 32, which it tends to be, you don't want people down on an 18 because they've got a 14 mark advantage. Like the average penalties in the show jumping is gonna be about six penalties between one and two fences down is gonna be the average. So if you jump clear, you're getting a six point edge on the field. That's having the balance between show jumping and dress is just something we should be looking to do. You don't get that if you start putting horses down into the 19s and twenties because they just get too much of an advantage over the other, over the average score in the field. - Let's talk then cross country. The time it barely is, is notoriously difficult. Only two people made it last year. They actually made it from sort of the first 10 or 12 horses to go. It was Will Zogden and David Dole. - I don't know if that lulled people into a sense of security that we might see more people going inside the time, but actually I feel like we have got a number of horses in the field this year that are particularly quick. You've obviously got the likes of Austin O'Connor Colorado Blue, who we know are unbelievably fast. And they didn't have a tougher day in the cross country in Paris as they would have liked to have seen them climb up the leaderboard. Burly 12 months ago didn't go to plan for them, but actually that set the pathway for them to go to Maryland, where they absolutely excelled in the cross country phase. Another horse on that occasion, Mia Farley's Phelps, who actually for the US could be an unbelievable shout to go cross country inside the time. They're the only ones to go inside the time at Maryland last year. And pretty certain it was Mia's Five Star debut as well. They've since done, I think they went to Kentucky in the spring so they've got a little bit more mileage onto their belt. It feels like Burly is made for them. - And fun quiz for you. Can anybody tell me who or when the last US rider made the time at Burly? It's been a little while. - I was there in 2012. Nicole, I've only ridden Burly twice and she nade did it on that occasion. I don't know if it's been one since then. - My guess would be she nade helping as she was then. - You're right. - Manuel de Conveel, she nade was inside the time 2012. Only three people have done it from the US in the last 16, 15 years, I should say, back to 2008. Boyd Martin has done it once and Philip Dutton has done it once, I think, but it was 2012, the last time that it was done. So it could be the first time in 12 years we see a US rider go inside the time cross country. And there's also another one. - You've been quiet. - I'm a brand. - Sorry, you're a cloth, weren't you? - Yeah, that was the second over. Thanks plan. - Second year. - I wasted three on the, I wasted three on the, no, no, no. And in 2012, actually, I would have made it only. I made a booboo with the main arena, which was on the way home, minute from home. It was the, like, London couldn't occur. I mean, obviously I didn't make it to London 'cause I made a whole lot of our last, of our preparation run. So I missed me Olympics back when I was a little kid and I cared about it and I was all, you know, all upset and flustered. So like, right, I'm gonna go to Berlin now. I actually went to camp for him, won camp for him. It's like, there's a statement now. I was everything you were talking about. Razz, I was doing, I was that like emotional, young, fiery fella. - I'm gonna set up me. - I'm gonna set up a daily company and proved them that I should take them. - Yeah, you can't see, you can't see the genius here. So then in some geniuses, I go to Berlin and actually was having a class trying to pronounce the old Bushman putting up with me, which he did so many times. And then they brought the fence from London, the Olympics to Berlin. There was this whole legacy thing of we're going to like take some of these fences and put, give them to all the big events in the UK. And they gave early the planet fence and show I wore the planet. Terrible strike. I was just awful, it was rotary. I had to cry and jewelry spoke to me. I wrote that badly. - Really? - God, you didn't go to London as a transit. - Yeah. - But like that was only, well, that was only one of the London. - Only one of the Olympic ventures. - Can you imagine it, to jump all of them? - What about you, Celeste? - Yeah, just thinking of bright, young things from Ireland. - She's after finding some improvement in the first phase, guys, like, I mean, the results since Bobminton are really impressive. She's been over in the UK. She's taken a load of marks off her test. I saw she actually just did a test. She did a guinea pig test. She was really under the weather herself, but she did a guinea pig test there at Laskarve in the last weekend. It was excellent. Like she'll be in the, she'll be in the 20s. If she does that. And it's so nailed. Like the, everything was there. You're just going like, oh my God. Now, there's a little bit of the fact that she's now Lucy Lata second at Bobminton and you're already taken note. It's back to Jamie Oliver cooking you the scrambled eggs. She's not just like some roadside little chef here giving you scrambled, you're like, oh no, maybe I should take notice of this. And that'll help with the judging, but she's actually, it is, it is better. It is more, like the horse is more connected, more engaged, more uphill, but she's not making a mistake. Like this, she's under the tutelage of is a power and is it is ruthlessly detailed on everything, particularly like how, if you go into her larry, if you ever invite in for a cup of tea or something, like she's so particular about where you do, like she'd be grateful and like gone just mess up her larry, like start roughing up the drawers or something like that. Like it'll just drive her crazy. She's a neat, loves neatness and all this kind of stuff. - Is it? - Yeah, it is a, but again, like, and like, but seriously, like that family with Captain Compower and what he did for the sport, Robbie Power and what he's done in the sport is it's gone crazy now being like, do you have to mention me dad and me brother. We're like, you know, I'll just talk about the, now you're talking about it. You can become power's daughter. Is she, her line at the moment is, I used to be Compower's daughter. Then I was Robert Power's sister. Now I'm Lucie Laut is cousin. Like, can I not just be is a parent? And you are to others that you are. - She's really good about burly herself, is it? - Oh yeah, no, we all recognize, we all recognize the talent that's there. And she's a huge part of this, of the Lucy story. But that's, again, that whole ethos, like there's proper training going on here, like there's proper attention to detail. Obviously, a huge amount of knowledge that she brings to the table. And like Lucy's in Dublin and she is an amateur. She's a part-time writer. So is it does a lot of work with the horse and training with the horse in between? And like that's something I wish I could do more at home for me, like I wish I could have other people riding the horse A, so I could look at the picture from the ground and B, so that the, 'cause none of us are perfect. I mean, I'm far from it. And having the benefit of different people. So I really think this is a combination set up for success. The horse, I actually bought this horse. I'll stop talking now in a second. Never thought he would be of like the fastest horse around badminton. But big, strident horse, the way Lucy rode was so positive. She never wasted one ounce of energy. She never hit the brakes any longer than she needed to. And I can't see him making the time around Burley, but I can see him being really solid in every phase. And I don't think he'd be like, he'll be really fit. 'Cause again, that's what the ladders will certainly bring to the table as well. And Lucy is possibly smaller and lighter than Rose County. - She's tiny and I have to say, I didn't know Lucy at all pre-badminton. And I remember chatting to Isib on the Friday night and we're talking about the cross country and Lucy specifically. And I said, "Oh, is he fast cross country?" And I think I said, "Tonicy, is he fit enough?" And she looked me dead in the eye and was like, "He's fit enough." And she had a bit of a twinkle in her eye and they knew that they'd got him primed for badminton. But in terms of temperament, you've already touched on the fact that Lucy is kind of a very, I don't think she likes the term amateur. She's very professional in the way she does things, but she has a job. She, you know, this is the only horse she competes at the very top level. She was so cool at badminton when she was kind of thrown into a bit of a media frenzy. And all of a sudden, everybody wanted a piece of her and there was a huge amount of interest. And she was very sweet, very cool, very calm and just an odd little flustered by it, just took it all on her stride. And I think that will stand her again in good stead for barely one, there will be more media interest. - So is she our best first-timer? Although there's some-- - No, I've got another one. I've got another one. - Good luck. - I've got another one. - Good luck. - Good luck final first-timer is going to be there and then that combination. - I think she's going to, she's going to be a little bit further off her first phase performance. However, I wouldn't put it past how much improvement will have come from the fact that she's been based with Nicola Wilson this season. Big old shout out to all of our listeners on the other side of the world because it is actually Sophia Hill from Australia, or Sophia Landy. I think she was Sophia Landy, she's now Sophia Hill is the one that I'm going to put up. First phase definitely needs to improve. However, the horse is an absolute jumping machine, has been clear in the show jumping on I think his last, probably his last 10, nine or 10 international runs. He is so quick, very, very thoroughbred, could be a real contender to finish on his dress art score, which is a huge thing to do. I think only 10 people have done it at Burley out of about a thousand starters. - I can't believe that he came up with because eight of the last 10 Burley winners have been in the four fastest horses on ratings going into it, which makes sense. We know Burley, it comes down to speed. And in our top four, we've got Colorado Blue, we've got Cooley Roslant, we've got Family Beatats for Emily King, who I'm sure we'll get to with a big placing at Badminton. And then it was, I was like, who's this other one? And you've just pulled them out of the hat. - Oh, glory, I want to hear you. - I'd too much to find in the first phase. I looked at it and I was like, no, this will be broken. Firstly, Lordship's Grafalo not in that on ratings, just simply because of the way he's being campaigned this season, just letting that go a little bit. But at the same time, trust the ratings as well. Like, will they be as sharp? Will they be as, you know, but I think he will be following power. So I'm not too concerned. I mean, Lordship's Grafalo comfortably is my favorite. He doesn't worry me that he's not in that top four on speed ratings, but yeah, that's a strong shout. Look, that's a climber. That's your biggest climber. - Biggest climber. And actually a really exciting one because they've been on the podium at Adelaide. It takes a lot for them to, she's got a young family. They've all come over. Like, it's a huge kind of uplift to bring your family over here and your life over here just to go and campaign. And I think, you know, she was on the kind of the periphery of Paris and Burley was always Plan A. And actually, I just think it should be a really exciting one. I think she'll have a lot of fun. I remember watching her at Brahman on, comparing her mind, she'd never been to Brahman. She'd never been to a venue that had had that kind of ground and that kind of terrain or anything like that. And she had two horses and they both absolutely skipped around. Humbleglory was obviously the more experienced than she had a young horse that I think had just stepped up to the four star level from memory. And again, it was really, really quick. - Do you know what I love about this? This feels like a little bit of a drawback. And what I mean by that is, what are we doing? Like eight years of this podcast now, something like that. And you do get used to the same names and the same type of preview in that the sport is always moving and there's always new challenges and new narratives which come out. But it's rare that you really get to enjoy I think a horse like this or a horse like Phelps who we've just touched on briefly from a US point of view whereby you can legitimately look at the sport as it is and say, yeah, they're gonna be 30 something but they're still gonna be possibly jumping in the top 10. By the way, Sam Watson here last year. Like Sam, that dress size test wasn't all that you were able to do. I know you were happy with it and you kept it lit on it. But in terms of the horse in the first phase, you're probably not to the similar to coming to the horses that we're talking about in terms of Phelps or Humbleglory and his Humbleglory. Oh, where the excitement comes is you jumped in the top five on Sunday because as of that strong cross country round. And when I mean throwback, Nicole, I mean, it's in a class that we can talk about town and against ros. Honestly, two of the great generational riders, multiple five-star winner, world champion and five-star winner and also very legitimately talk about horses who are very much under the radar in almost every other competition that they're gonna be in. But we can put them into this particular challenge, a real triathlon where speed will matter and we can pull speed horses and we can say it's worth the journey from Australia. It's worth the journey from America and we're gonna see some speed cross country that potentially climbs these horses up into late afternoon. So jumping on Sunday, I love that. I missed that and that's why when we had this, when we were prepping for the show, it's so exciting to me that actually very rarely do we get to do this. Even the badminton cross country, which is not a place that you can make the time that often, mustn't generate the same level of what's right. We're saying this like they're so different as events because of that terrain, but that same challenge of speed, which is just speed, speed, speed. If you can bring speed, you can climb from any position into a very, very good position. - I've got another one, okay. And this is kind of a known quantity, but an unknown quantity because I don't know we've ever seen him, but Bertie before. And yet he is a double European champion. He is the only French rider to have ever won badminton. I can't believe we've got this far into the show, we're an hour in. We haven't mentioned Nicholas Toussaint, who is in the fields with absolute goals. Many of you was fifth on at the Europeans and who were out of panel last year. Interestingly for me, so in the build up to Paris, obviously at Home Olympic Games, he had two big horses in the reckoning. Diablo Mont had always kind of been pictures that the young pretender that was going for that Paris lot, but absolute goal, very much could have been on that team if Diablo Mont wasn't in the kind of the challenge as well. And the owner said, do you know what? We're withdrawing him from selection. He's gonna have another plan. And his plan is Burley. And one, it's very exciting to see Nicholas here. I don't think Burley's ever had a French winner. I think this could be, this would be first time that, you know, would ever be. - I haven't had one at the club, would it, you know? - Yeah, in 2008, I think it was. - Oh, well, you know, a great color to sovijer when he was absolutely at the top of the sport. - Ildal Gaudelile as well was his badminton winner, that he is so good. - An absolute goal for me, unbelievably experienced, has been a little bit, I mean, he's been to the Olympic Games in Tokyo was sixth individually there, part of the French team that won Team Bronze. He was fifth at the Europeans. He's had some really good results, places like Chatsworth and things like that. So he has come over. It was top 10 at the Europeans in the moon in 2019. That is how long he's been at the top of the sport. The bit that stands out for me, just interestingly, his last two international runs this year, admittedly one of them at the three-star level, he's actually taken a few marks off his first phase. 26.1 was his last outing, one a three-star in our field. He's going to want to be kind of in that sort of territory in certainly sub 30, if he's looking to be challenging for the win. But one, it's unbelievably cool to have him here. Two, I think he could actually be unbelievably competitive. He's only got a 1% win chance, but I just would not. And I would just would not discount Nicholas Fuzall at all. I'm also slightly fascinated by him. Has anyone else slightly fascinated by him, Catherine? - Well, he does that more on the stage. - He doesn't speak English, which always, you know, confuses a little bit. But yeah, look, he's a properly top rider. He's had peaks and troughs, but when he has come to British Five Stars with the competitor horse, he has, well, one. He has an aura about him. I think like when I look at the field here, Gaspar Maxout is the other one with Zaragoza. I mean, that's a horse who was fantastic around the 2022 World Championships. I think only as a nine-year-old who was in the top six there. Again, form is temporary classes permanent. They were going to be quick around Aachen and just tipped up with the final water in the main arena. And there's something there. But this field speaks, there's going to be, everything is going to come into play here. Like you cannot discount the first phase. I can't see people winning or getting on the podium from a 35 dressage because you've still got a show jump on the last day and the time penalties aren't easy. So like some of the ones we've talked about a little bit too far off the pace. But some of these now you're getting into think of it, but I can see cross-country penalties coming in here, like jumping, not just time. There's a lot for them to answer. Of the five-star winners, like to quickly go, you know, Colorado Blue is up there and I think suits this. So Maryland winner have the early 20 penalties here last year, but has, you know, great badminton form, great championship form. Five-star winner, I like Austin coming off the back of and Olympic Games. All of the training and preparation that goes into that, very similar to Raz, they're going to bend all that stands to them. And it's kind of like that was a dress rehearsal. Both of them left more marks behind them. Like neither of them were at peak. That neither of them were as good as they have been. In the past, both of them will have left a few marks on the table of these combinations. Raz and I expect them to improve for Burley. And again, it feels like, you know, not that there's anything to do with pressure, but I think even going to Burley last year with the expectations of what he'd done at badminton with the podium finish, and then how much better were they again at Maryland and even in terms of the dressage test. Because his dressage test at Burley wasn't as good. So do you remember it was the fly, the fly? Yeah, yeah, that popped in. It can often be the changes with them, but I can see them getting it. But where I want to touch on chilly night, Gemma Stevens, they're actually, they won victim back in the COVID year. So they're like the furthest back of the five-star winners. Now, victim was really testing. It was hilly, it was a proper testing. Five-star was a very unique one-off one, but that was Gemma Stevens won and only five-star win. They're back here, not to be discounted. Just quickly, Sam, on chilly night before you move on, he was given 15 penalties for a flag penalty at Huntsman's close at badminton, which I haven't seen the head-on footage or anything like that. Without those 15 penalties, he would have won badminton. I know it's very easy to say they're kind of what-if game, but actually, it would be a very, very different conversation if he had won badminton. Yeah, it's a good point, actually. That is worthy, because you're showing enough. Grab a near-genel price. I don't think they start strong enough. I don't think the speed isn't like a real solid horse. I think they wore a six-step badminton, I want to say. They were there, but again, they're a five-star winner, which is why I'm mentioning them here. But I'm not sure if they find enough here, but the one that I would land on, 'cause we're all sort of getting to that point in the show where we start nailing colors to the mast and things like that. Really solid profile everywhere. Do I think out and out, burly horse, not necessarily, but they're now conditioned because they had a good badminton under their belt, and badminton wasn't easy this year. Balmy B, that's an Emily King. They just take everything for me in terms of all three phases. Like the Elo rating is up at seven, five, three. Where are they rated in this field? They are rated top five. So you've launched its graph low, you have Vitali, Capil's Hollow, Dresh, Colorado, Blue, Valmy, Beatz, then Cooley Roslin, then Green Acre Special Cavalier, then your absolute gold, Nicholas Toussaint. Sarah goes, as I mentioned, Eiselot, D-H-I for Ros Cantor. There are your top 10 rated horses in the field. Valmy Beatz is right in there. Emily King hasn't won a five-star. That to me feels like that's going to happen one day surely. Well, well, well. At last, Jumplin, you see, you get on the, you can be two-level. I don't have the badminton, didn't you, D? Yeah, you get on the badminton too early. It's all about timing. Was I too early? You worry, yeah. She hasn't won a five-star yet, mate. I mean, I would encourage people to listen back to Sam and Spike, and a reaction to my big, how big I went on Emily King at badminton off the back of Torsby, result, I think. Um, and a very big, you know, I'm joking, of course. I totally agree. I think what you said to me that day was that the time will be difficult. I think the time will be more difficult this time in terms of the profile that we have here. So I think there's possibly other five-stars and there's other occasions where I would be higher on them. But what I love about this journey that they're on, including Akken this year, is that, I don't know, it just feels like when you go and look at badminton, then backed up by Akken, they're really growing into their own very recognized partnership. You mentioned that high-level rating now, Sam, like it comes from consistently performing at a high level. I don't know if this is the big podium, but I do fully agree in terms of what you're talking about. You can try to be too clever. And actually, if you look at the Valamie Beatts profile, a lot of all of the boxes are pretty much ticked. So with the right, yeah. With the right... Oh, with the extra two or three marks that you might pull on a dress-out, on a very good dress-out day, with the right rhythm and waking up well on Saturday morning and actually feeling like the fences come up well for them, like there is a chance. But it's great to be able to have Emily in that conversation at that level pretty comfortably now. She was only a rail-off, like she had two down at Badminton and they're normally a good show-jumping combination. Like, even if they'd had one down, they'd have won eight-point-eight time penalties on the 29 dress-out, was the Badminton result. Like, you have to, Caroline Powell won Badminton with a 30 dress-out and 13.2 time. You know, Lucy Lata was second with a 36-point-eight dress-age and two down in the show-jumping. - It wasn't as high of a rate for the sister. - It wasn't exactly, ever, but... - I said, don't see you getting away with that here. - Yeah, so there's two things going on here. One, Lordship's Grafilon, Colorado-Blue, both, well, Lordship's Grafilon in particular brings a level of class, and to an extent, Cooley Rosnant, that they can go sub-25, they can be one of the fastest in the field and they can jump well on the last day. And then just none of these, none of these see them. None of these, you know, they just don't get close. But I think, yeah, I think there's a few marks there that could come off the Valne Bietz, the Emily King dress-age. I think I could see them mid-20s. I could see a few more, Emily, so conservative enough. - Very good, no. - Yeah, and I can see just with confidence and brave, I can just, with more, again, those millet, like the confidence that Badminton gives you the confidence that I can give you, I can just see her eeking out more, like just her own height for time and taking seconds off. I can see that happen and there's a good, there's a better show jumping round in there on the last day. - I think once you've ridden a horse around a track like Birdie as well, you know what's left in the tank and that will give you confidence and how you tackle it the next time. I want to pick up actually on Tom Jackson and Capell's Hollow Drift because they've been second at Birdie before a couple of years ago and actually, he's a horse that has two-fifth place and she's at Badminton as well. He's been getting better and better, to be honest. He's normally been very reliable in both the jumping phases. For me, the speed for him cross-country is how quick can he go, somewhere like Birdie, but he's got course form and he's gonna be pretty close to not adding any jumping penalties to his dressage school. So however quick he is, his dressage is also improving. I want to say last time out, actually up at Birdie, he did a really, really smart low 20s test, so he's definitely got to be in with a shout here and I think shouldn't be overlooked in terms of the overall standings as well. One of my favourite horses is here. I love this horse so much. The CHF callizer, Tom McEwen, who were on the podium at LaMoulin this year, so we're brilliant there. She missed, she missed Badminton, didn't she, when she knocked herself in the stable, sort of re-rooted to LaMoulin and then the plan was very much bring her back here. She missed last season, but she is just a proper five star campaign now. She's got really good five star results under her belt. And I actually think Tom will probably, I imagine quite enjoy coming in as without the pressure. If you think of how much pressure he's been under, building up to Paris, he's the world number one, but actually, callizer isn't a favourite, so he can go and have some fun and I think he will have some fun up early this week. - Tim, for ice, cue to core, do the van. There's another one of your five star winners, they won Maryland 28 is the X-run average. - Unown quantity, Sam, isn't it? Because, I mean, they went really well at V's Barre than this year in the four star, but we haven't seen a huge amount of that horse since he won Maryland, and he hadn't done a huge amount before he won Maryland. - No, and again, he-- - I know the horse at all, so it's very difficult to take a gauge, really, sort of said. - Yeah, well, he's a very, he's an eventor, very complete kind of all-round profile. You can knock towards, they might have a rail on the last day, that might not, you know, that five star level, you can potentially get away with that. Again, it does depend on the big hitters in the field performing, but Tim, very, very, very polished in the first phase is producing a lot of different horses to do some very big tests and will improve them, so you can see more improvement coming in that first phase. It's on Maryland is a good course to have experience on common to Burleigh, because you have some hills there. It has been a much of an easier track to make the time than Burleigh, for sure. It's not as intense and, you know, that the layout was a little bit kinder, and the year that Kudekor won a lot when making the time, like the time was easier, but you have loads of your sleeve, like he's inside the side. You don't know how much is up his sleeve, so that is still kind of the unknown, but not going to be so, like I would like that profile. Like there's a few horses I can go through and rule out for various reasons. I find it hard to rule out this horse. Quite like the Valmi-Biat profile. I don't think there's a weak phase in there, but I think actually this horse is going to be quick, you know, Tim in the saddle knows Burleigh very well. I know you're a little stat, but I'm not making the time, Nicole. I don't see Burleigh, but I don't, but I don't see him making the time this year. You know, I don't, I think you've made a really good shout there with your Aussie shout, Humble Glory. I do think they could make the time, I think Grafalo could make the time, Colorado Blue could make the time, and then your intellects have felt maybe a grandstown Jackson. These type of fast horse, you know, blood fast horses with light girls on their back, Lucie Lata, Lars Cantor, Sarah Ennis, it makes a huge difference. Like, we're seeing it more and more now in the sport as the horses are getting planer and less blood to go on for that more dressage, better jump. We're seeing weight, lack of weight on a horse's back being a huge advantage. And it is, you know, we see what we see in racing. So, yeah, I think that's a potential angle on it. - What about Harry Reid's Brabberg winner? - I feel like we're playing, let's guess which horse Harry Reid might ride of the five million he has entered. - Yes, he's got five. - You think she'd be one of them, would you? - To be fair, animal, animal Valona, Brabberg winner, he actually did put on Instagram, I think I saw of the only one of his that I know is definitely planned to come here, Burleigh Bound. So, I think that's very much the plan. - Fun fact, animal Valona owned by Dinah Posford, who owned Paulank Brocker, Sam Griffiths 2014, Fabbont and Winah. - Nice, you're full of those little tidbits. - All the nuggets, all the nuggets. - You love to have a common nuggets. - Yeah, it's his horse, right? - Yeah, it's on Prediction Center, ahead of Pippen, MCS Maverick. If Pippa kind of shocked us when she won Rafton Street here, I mean, she'd shock us if she won Maverick as well, but like, that's a class horse. Like, it's not a previous Brahman, that's previous Brahman. - That's a Brahman winner. - So, a Maverick reminds me massively of like the Primo's Pride Supreme Rock stamp of a horse. He's very similar and kind of looks and stature. Fabbont in this year, he got really, really, really hot. And it was when you watched him go up to the dressage, when you watched him go up to the cross country, he sort of accumulated friends. The hunt horses were like his best buddies for the week, because he didn't want to go anywhere alone. And I'll be very interested to see how he reacts differently to a very different place at Burley than he was at Badminton. - True. - But he does just need to calm down slightly. - I know my top four, I'm ready to go. - Okay, you've written it down. Right, any other people we want to raise, I want to give a massive shout out to the two Japanese riders that we have in the field, Toshiki Tanaka, Jefferson Jerry, who actually came in and jumped the most flawless clear round in Paris to help the Japanese team when substituting in for his great friend, Rosee Katajima and Seketinga. Rosee actually has frozen new mode in this field as well. So it is brilliant. I think you have to go back to, God, is it the '60s? There's only been a couple of Japanese riders at Burley. - I think there was one in 2004. He's named by Forgotten, which is annoying, but yes. - Okay, we haven't-- - Okay, we haven't. - Yeah, Swiss as well. Like, obviously, the Japanese-- - You thought, definitely. - Yeah, like, that's another really healthy thing here, and, like, obviously, Japanese win in the bronze medal at the Olympic Games. The Swiss took fourth place there and have been a real paronation coming through in the sport, a real emerging nation coming through to take on the paronations, is put it that way, but right up there. Great to see that global universality coming to Burley as well. Okay, right, time, team, podium picks. Who wins Defender Burley 2020 for? Sam, you've got your list written down, so we want top three in the dark. - Can we just go around with the winner first? Can we do a different edition? - Okay, yeah, sure. - Okay, graph low for me. Keep it simple. - All time, and don't underappreciate it. You know, a bit of a, this is, we've talked about how good a horse this is, and I know putting them up as it was all about the Olympics this year, and I think the way the season's being to not do a spring major, to be conservative in terms of the campaign, to be spot on for Paris, and then for actually, I would say in all three, I say leaving a little bit behind, well, actually the cross country was fine, the cross country was excellent, but a few marks left off the table in the dressage, a rail in the show jump and just not, not probably the best we've seen them. I think this is a reminder that the big show in town, the horse that can do anything, the one horse in the sport, that wherever you put them, you sit up and take notice. I think we're gonna sit up and take notice when we see them at the big one, the big one in the sport, the big be the big burly. - I agree. I'm going for it. - Yeah, I agree to graph low to win. Raw's cads to win burly to a stretchy fall. - Full house? - No, not a full house, guys, I'm sorry. I think it's a nice little speech. I think you've done a nice little piece there that we can slip, but I'll be honest, it's a couple of years ago now, and you talk about getting on to the train too early, and I was trying to put Rosalind up for badminton, and you were laughing at me saying that work writer at home was gonna be shocked to hear that the badminton winner, it's not too long later that we see Rosalind become a five star winner. I think he's so experienced, he's made the time, oh, Oliver's certainly made the time twice here, Andrew Nicholson is the only one with more than two, and he has six. I admire so much his ability to get it done in so many different circumstances, in so many different ways. I think Rosalind wins this. - Okay, who's second feedy? - Graphalo. - How does that work? What's happened there? Oliver's eked out more improvement, and is ahead of them in the first phase? - I think Oliver, yeah, I think, okay, you might need something to happen, 'cause I don't disagree with anything you're saying in terms of all of the class and all of the ways that they can go and do anything. - I mean, Graphalo could have two down, but I fancy Graphalo's a better joke. - Maybe Oliver can. Like last year, we had the last year. - But I mean, but Oliver's last year, but when would have railed down? - Like in that, they didn't face anyone. There was no one in the top five here, including you, who was going to be, who was an amazing jumper. - I mean, that's not to well on it, and that's not to well on it. You've got Graphalo's second. I'm putting QT core did about second, 10 price. - Who does that work? - Okay. - It's just solid. Fifth there on prediction center, five star winner, round the hilly track, solid dress actually. - Around the easiest time that ever happened in the sport. - Yeah, but not a fastest horse round these bad. And I think which was a tough time. And I think Tim would put speed as an asset of this horse, not a concern. So yeah, I know I like this one. Could have a rail on the final day, but I see him there, and I just see him there the whole way through the competition, not too far off the pace in the first phase. - Compared to Vitaly? - Probably behind Vitaly after two phases. That'll be interesting, actually. If Tim is maybe two in the top five, going into the final day means one jumps early, it means QT core jumps early, if he's that way round. But you've got to remember round the five star, no horses, no horses guaranteed, or safe in that, particularly on Saturday. - Yeah. - Catherine, number two. - Cooley Rosalind to finish second this year, and with it next year. - She's staying in line with prediction center so far. Good, honey. - Had one of us as typically the non-accurate and employee. Nicole Bryan, who is your runner up on the... - Oh. - Under 2024. - My runner up is CHF Callizer, Tom McEwan. I'm going with my heart. - World number one, Tom McEwan. When's his second five star? - No, he's second. - No, he's second grade. - Tom McEwan second. And then I'll go for my third on the podium is Tim Price-Fertali. - Oh, there's a wall. - Why does Caroline Powell, Greedaker, special Cavalier, fabulous winners? - Mine is Emily King and Val Nivyotz. - D? - I have a bigger one for you. I'm not trying to be deliberately controversial in a multi-star-studded lineup, and this goes against the trends. You really do need to be placed fairly highly in the first phase, I think Sam mentioned it, but I really think that Phelps is gonna do something very special here. I saw it on Facebook, I saw it and you can't take it back. - I would just say, Phelps could well be jumping on the final day in the top five or six. However, Amir Farley would hold a hands up and say that the show jumping is not his favorite phase. - Fine. - So, who was the last horse you put into your party? - Thank you, Vitaly. The, and Jesse Springsteen. - He didn't do an 18.7 dressage, so. - I'm not disagreeing with that, and by the way, I absolutely love the Vitaly journey and nothing would make me happier than for that horse to show everybody. There's, look, don't take it the wrong way. I'm just saying, you can go through a whole show and then you get to the end and you think, like, I love your humble glory show. I really mean it when I say I think it's so much fun and excitement to go back to be able to pull horses that can have a six-run average of 39 and legitimately feel like, okay, maybe they won't win, but they're gonna climb and climb and climb and there's gonna be so much fun to be had on Saturday afternoon or early. And this Sunday afternoon or Sunday morning leaderboard is still another chance to go and have so much fun with this preview where you can sit down and actually talk about how all these horses jump because it feels like a whole new challenge and a whole new shakeup that's gonna happen just because of time penalties, not even to do with the 50% clear round rate that we take at a big five-star. Belbs is a very, very strong cross-country horse and has a six-run average of 32 and they are not bad jumpers. Like, I think that thing is way too overplayed in terms of, I think it's an easy thing that people allow themselves into from a psychology point of view to be able to say, David does it, Mia does it, say they're not a great jumper, they're not that bad. Yeah, I know, I can see it clicking away, but I'll try. - I mean. - I've watched them live in the flesh, not just in data, I've seen it. - They are not bad. What was, what Kentucky wasn't that bad, what were they? - Four down. - Jess Phoenix did it here last year with Wabbas. - Yes. - Yeah. - I think she went down for one down order. So what you can't, so the whole, the way the show jump and... - What? - Is four down to go. - Is two down. - Two down to Maryland the year before. - But as much as you can have that real bad, like a typical three-down horse, okay, can go in and have five or six down. They can also go in and have one down. - Yeah. - Yeah, absolutely. - But those are just gonna happen. - Can we do dark horse? I have actually... - You've rolled on yours, haven't you? - Fatali. - No. (laughing) - Felt. - Felt fatali. - That's when you were your number three. Who was your third? - Caroline Powell. - Caroline Powell. - Oh yeah, oh yeah. - Oh yeah, oh yeah. - That's not true. - You have three five-star winners on your boat. The three I mentioned, the highest right at 12-year-old, 11-year-old, and 10-year-old. - Why dark horse? - It'd be no adjumid and tape, Lloyd. - Nice. She's based at Piggy's. - It's really well at Blair, which is quite encouraging. Nickle said, you know, lashing a rod. (laughing) - Mine is Master Point and Inca cells. - Okay, nice. - Blood, horse, gallops. Again, it'll be, like, like, the biggest crack with five-star now is it's so open. Like, the horse that added the least amount to their dressage score in badminton was Alexander Bragg added 7.6 time to a 37 dressage, unfinished third. Now, like, you would just write horses off for the 37 dressage in any other format of the sport. Like, the, you know, four-star long, wherever you just write them off over there. - Yeah. - No way. And then you go on to add 7.6 to your dress. Like, that's the closest to an FOD that we had. - It's class. It's just-- - Yeah, that's what I mean. - It's class. It's like-- - It's such fun. Like-- - Inboard glory, grandstand, Jackson, Phelps, even Luke Shackles. - There's a bit of a huge jumping lottery with a few of them. - Yeah. - This is actually-- - I mean, well, that was probably the case of badminton as well. Like, BBC went live for the top 10. I don't think that-- - But one thing that annoys is know your, like, this is the pinnacle of the sport, right? Five-star. And again, I hope that we take measures to do this, right? At badminton, they built-- badminton's never built a show jump and track like that. Like, it was the biggest and most technical of badminton track that's ever been built with, by far, the worst quality show jumpers we've ever seen there. Why would you do that? And then put that on beat. So you have to match your-- like, we have to study the sport. We have to be students of the sport because we're all-- we're responsible for what goes out there, the pictures that goes out there. And like, the course designers in show jumping know the quality of their field to build it right. And like, they put their hands up, like, Frank Rotemberger and Akken had a really high first round clear rate in the nation's cup. And was like, okay, that can't be by surprise a little bit. And okay, catching you a little bit by surprise, I guess is possibly what happened at badminton, but I hope if we have a top 10, that is full of very ropey show jumpers that you don't-- that it's not the time to pull out, here's the toughest show jump and track we've ever built. Just keep it-- keep just build a standard track. I mean, don't go easy, like, build a standard, but it's not the time to go and test new standards when you've got a low quality field. Because, again, it just doesn't look wonderful, I think. I am going to throw my dark horse into the mix very quickly. I feel bad that we haven't actually spoken about Alex Bragg and Quindy, but who were third at badminton this spring. They capitalized on that really good clear show jumping around, she's a very good jumper. Is that your dark horse? No, my dark horse is actually one I would have left a dark horse. Of course, it's an extra mentions for our friends. Yeah, just a little bit of snips for her. My dark horse is actually a first-timer, and it's a five-star first-timer as well. And that is a young rider called Lizzie Bough, who comes forward with the exclusive, who have been sick at both Brahman and at Blenham. He's had a bit of time off. He should have gone to Burley last year off the back of that really good Brahman result and picked up an injury. And so he's kind of been picking his way back, but he's a really, really class horse. He's a hell of a galloper, and I'm very much looking forward to seeing him. I suppose it would be wrong for, because Spike's not here. Someone should just mention Alice Kasperin on the top spin, which Blake. I've got one. [LAUGHTER] Yeah. No, really good show, actually. Yeah, wonderful, finally. Wonderful owners. What a journey. What a journey, topspin, has been on. Oh, it's been easy. It's just a wonderful-- just be such a good story. No one would deserve it more. I've watched him come through the ranks with juniors and young riders, where I help the team, and playing in a large part. And yeah, just a good show, I think. Well, why it will be a good show? It will be, again, if speed comes in, top spin is a horse to be on side with. Who was your dark horse, Captain Austin? I said, no, it's a bit deaf from Switzerland. Oh, of course she is, yeah, good show. I actually didn't pick one. Can I pick artist, Monica Oakley? I take it by all those silent, stony faces that I can. [INTERPOSING VOICES] More blood horse to come. So foul to the tarbread. Artist is tarbread. Few of them in there. I think there's more than that. Humble glorious. Humble glorious. Humble glorious. Humble glorious. It's going to be a brilliant, brilliant burly. Cannot wait to see how it unfolds. We've really bigged up this field. It is the strongest burly on record, but it's one of the strongest five stars that we've seen in recent years as well. Enjoy it, whether you're heading to Burley, in which case, listeners, don't forget, you can get your electronic tickets up until the night before you travel. Make sure that you arrive in plenty of time. All of the usual housekeeping bits and pieces. If you're not going, sign in to Burley TV to enjoy all of the action. It's going to be a top-class coverage, actually. There's loads of sneaky little additions that will just take the coverage to the next level. So you won't regret it at all. There's going to be loads of content for you. Team, I will see you all there looking forward to it. And as always, listeners, love a five-star preview show. Thank you for sticking with us, because they're always particularly meaty. And we will be back very soon with more. Thanks, Julian.
