John Swantek visits with Golf Channel's Damon Hack to talk Tiger, Sergio and The Masters. PGATOUR.COM's Jonathan Wall on any player equipment changes for the 2016 Masters.
Talk of the TOUR Golf Podcast
Damon Hack of Golf Channel, PGATOUR.COM equipment editor Jonathan Wall
And welcome to the Talk of the Tour podcast for Friday April 1st. Is it April 1st already? Holy smokes. Glad you're a long people. No April Fool's jokes, I promise. Silliness. I'm John Spontec. Looking forward to my conversations today with Damon Hack from Golf Channel. Let's talk about this Tiger Woods article, the cover store in Sports Illustrated this week. And we'll get into some other stuff with Damon as well. And also Jonathan Wall, our equipment editor and insider on what players are planning to do with equipment for next week's Masters. And we remind you that now that we're podcasts, we're doing this a few days a week, you can listen to the show or any of our content, play by play coverage as a matter of fact. You can keep up with everything happening, when, where, however it suits your schedule, listen to the PGA Tour replay show, all of it can be consumed via iTunes, Stitcher, or tune in. So log on to PGA Tour.com/podcasts, learn more about the latest editions of any of our programs that used to stream live on PGA Tour.com. You can listen, download the podcasts there, and for the latest edition of PGA Tour replay, all of our other stuff as well, visit PGA Tour.com/podcasts and subscribe today. And my first guest is the long time. Golf beat writer for the New York Times, Sports Illustrated for many years as well. And for the last several years has brought his talent to Orlando as a Golf Channel commentator and co-host of Morning Drive. It's been a while since we spoke with Damon Hack. I always appreciate some time. How are you, Damon? I'm doing great, Swan. How are you going, Tom? Very good. The news this week, the cover story, Tiger Woods in Sports Illustrated. Always such a compelling subject that you could talk about with anyone, even if they're just peripherally interested in golf. And it's the most vexing question in sports. That was the title of Alan Schipnick's article. What happened? What was your reaction when you first read this? I love the piece, Swan. First of all, having worked at SI, I know what an undertaking it is to write a cover story. You get some time to kind of dig into a topic, and I think Alan did a great job. I like how he kind of toveled back and forth in time between the present day to the late '90s. To the middle 2000s. And of course, the highlight and the focus really being how the scandal changed everything. I think we kind of talked about it and talked around it a little bit, but he said explicitly, you know, the line of demarcation more and more is looking like the scandal. And I thought he being Alan did a lot of good reporting and brought some things that we knew, brought him back, reminded us where we were a few years ago, and that scandal broke, and what happened since. And it had some good fresh takes, I thought, from people like Charlie Howe to kind of speak to how competitive and different Tiger is compared to his peers and how fearless he was, and how much things have changed and how we still don't really know what happened. So he kind of put those pieces together through interviews and anecdotes, and I thought he did a fine job in doing just that. I can't imagine what a chore, what a grind it was, being Tiger Woods. And this was not just his competitive career as a professional game in the last couple of decades, but since he was a little kid, that had to contribute to this deterioration through the years gradually, didn't it? I think so, and I think that the piece really points to that, that maybe Tiger just was tired, and you know, we always got to say, well, he's an old 30 or an old 40 or whatever age he is at the time, and now of course he's 40, and you're right, but he's been a professional longer than he's been a professional. He's been on television, and he was a toddler, and doing all the feats that he did, and winning the sixth straight USGA championship that he did as an amateur, and we've known about him for a long time, and that none of us can relate even remotely to what it's been like, how fatiguing, and how maybe in some way this was a cry-out thing. You know what, I'm tired of this, I don't care if I, you know, that there's a Hank Haney quote, you know, you wanted to text Jack Nickliss' record, and maybe he didn't really care about it, he was tired of being Tiger Woods, and you know, we see it in Denver as we see it in actors, and child actors, and you know, Jennifer Capriotti and tennis, who burnt out, and maybe this was Tiger's burnout, and I think that's what we're still trying to figure out, you know, why did he burn out, was it the fact that he was, you know, ungainly as a teenager, and not a cool guy, and nerdy even, and there's so much psychology in the relationship with his father, and this piece really, really digs deep into a lot of complex stuff. Yeah, and because of those reasons, I think if he were to have lost his passion for the game, even in small measures, I think we should forgive him for that, damn, and he should be allowed that. I mean, the guy's got nothing to prove, shouldn't we be satisfied and appreciative, more than skeptical at this point? I think we should, I understand your point. I also think that I've written this myself, that we are tough on our heroes, and we always have been. I mean, my dad's still out over the fact that Elgin Baylor got old with the Los Angeles Lakers, and his knees went bad. That's the 1970s, and you know, we talk about William A's falling down in center field, you know, in the mech uniform, something that Alan referred to in his story as well. I think we're tough on our athletes. I cried when Magic Johnson announced that he had HIV and was retiring from the Lakers, and he said, "The guy had given me five NBA titles at that point, and I wanted more." And I think that, in the Tigers sense, we see someone who was so good. We want to see Mozart, we want to see he talked to him, and Tiger won his last major at 32 before Phil Nicholson won his first at 33. I mean, that when you put it that way, it's like, "Wait, Tiger had more winning to do." And yet he gave us 14 haters and 79 of PGA to a win. That's 15 people's career, that's 35 people's career, you know? And we still want more. It was a level of fame and fortune that very few have seen. And certainly other athletes, a handful of athletes through the years, big stars in other facets of the entertainment industry, the political world, what have you, they're private, I think. They're more private than we realize, but their profile is so public. That's very much at odds, and it's got to be really hard to reconcile, I would think, for an individual, isn't it? I think so, and I think that all of us, when we watch people on television or in the movies, we feel like we know them, and we feel like, "Hey, you owe me. I'm paying to watch you go to a tournament or I'm showing up 15 bucks for a movie ticket and another five for popcorn, and we feel this sense of ownership to people that we don't own." These are folks that have their own lives. I mean, at the end of the day, Tiger's a son and a father and has his own issues. He's divorcee, he's got back surgeries and the Achilles and knees, and he's fallible. And I can't imagine trying to live a life where you can't even go outside your gates and not be noticed, without pulling a hat down low or wearing sunglasses and trying to be a normal human being. He couldn't do it, and I think it's a bargain to make. You're well compensated, you're famous beyond recognition. You never have to worry about a meal or go up the gas tank, but it's just something the rest of us can't relate to. And I think it kind of goes back to the original point that, man, Tiger gave us a lot for a decade and a half, nearly two decades. And maybe it's enough, and it's time to turn the page and appreciate the days and the speaks and the rorries and the fathers and the brothers and the DJs and the rest because, man, Tiger did something that will never be done and was remarkable and must see TV. And we all, in the golf world and golf fans, we all benefited from it. I mean, they used to say there was a Wall Street bounce on Monday when Tiger wouldn't make the championship. The earth was spinning correctly on its axis when Tiger was performing well. But man, that's a big burden for any one person to have to care. And all of it, Damon, was magnified by the fact that Woods' rise, for the most part, kind of coincided with the rise of the Internet age. And exposure was heightened to degrees that certainly players of previous generations never had to deal with, Jack Nicklaus, Arnold Palmer, and the rest of them. Now we're in a social media culture where there is nowhere to hide 24/7. So I'm curious, do you think what Tiger has experienced in the way that his personal life was exposed? Serves as a cautionary tale for Spieth and Rory and Day. And the rest of this young generation that's poised to carry the torch in the game for a walk. You have to think, and I like the fact that you hear Jason Day saying, "Hey, you know, I text with Tiger all the time, and I'm sure it's not just about golf." I imagine there are tidbits of life lessons there as well. And even if Tiger is explicitly giving those young players advice, his advice is all in its own. They can watch and see what happened and learn and hopefully not make the same mistakes Tiger did. But it's just fascinating to me to talk to people who don't know much about golf. Talk to a young woman as we did last week who said, "Yeah, I would watch Tiger every Sunday." And then the next thing we're talking about, she goes, "Now, is a par better than a birdie or a birdie for this par?" These are folks, people don't even know, they don't really know the game, but they know Tiger. And it's just, he did so much. And even at 40 or 41 or 42, should he come back and play and shoot 75? People will still be fascinated by him. Tiger was shooting 80, does a better rating. I believe in Ricky Fowler shooting 65. I just think he's the once in a lifetime confluence of events, the internet, the minority factor, the Nike factor, the red shirt. There's just all these things that came together to create one of the three or four most famous athletes, probably in the history of the planet. He's the same age Jack was. When Jack won his U.S. Open and the P.J. Championship in 1980, and then of course, Jack would win the Masters six years later in '86. So, I suppose historically, you know, one more run at greatness is not completely out of the question. If that were ever to happen, I mean, that would dwarf everything, all of his greatness and all of his historical accomplishments. I think it would be super seated if he were to somehow ever come back and contend with a major championship. It would be off the charts. It would be, you know, we already thought Tiger's rise was something like we've never seen before. This would be, this would be Jack in '86. It would be, gosh, it would be, you know, Muhammad Ali winning a second and third, you know, heavyweight crowd. It would be George Foreman in his 40s, you know, somehow becoming a heavyweight champ again. I mean, this would be, you know, this would be John Elway, you know, winning two-super bowl. It would be all of that and then some, because the fall was so great and the perception of everyone to Tiger, and I imagine Tiger's own perception to himself, it just changed so much. It got to such a mental grind and physically what he's gone through and looking at these young guys who hit the ball past him now and make more puts than he does. If he could somehow, you know, the one-time, most mentally tough golfer, maybe we've ever seen, at least in our generation in Ben Hogan, of course, you could put his name on there as well, considering what he came back from a true, you know, life in that situation. But if Tiger could somehow, in this age of internet and social media and Twitter and Facebook and all those other things, put it back together, the world would be watching and it would be a remarkable story. And you're right, you know what, Davis Love just won a PGA tour rent at 51, Tom Watson Pied basically for his sixth open title, you know, George Think, back in 2009, Brett Norman contended at age 54, at birth daily year before. So, you know, Tiger, that's the tap Tiger's taking so long as his body cooperates. History has told us that there's a relatively short career window in which these guys are at their absolute best and win major championships. Jack Nicklaus in his great longevity, I guess, was the exception. Your colleague, Michael Bamberger, former colleague for Sports Illustrated, wrote a terrific piece about the nine-year run where Jack, Arnie and Gary, won eight of the nine between 1958 and 1967, I guess. And I was reminded yet again and surprised yet again that Arnold Palmer's seventh and final major came in 1964. He was a meteor streaking through the sky, but in '64 when he won the Masters, Damon, that was it for the King. Yeah, and who could have foreseen it? You know, obviously, Nicklaus had risen at that point, but who would have thought that the rise would basically snuff out the rest of Arnold Palmer's major championship glory and Arnold won PGA tour event after 1964. But you're right, that incredible run for him of winning a green jacket in '68, '60, '62, and '64, that run was done, and it speaks to the power. I mean, you know, Arnold Palmer was the longest hitter in the most popular player and the most dynamic player, and it comes Jack and Jack should have passed Arnie. And there's the famous photo of them both holding their drivers staying at the camera, and Jack's holding his driver had just a little higher than Arnie's. And actually, I don't think so. I'm frankly not worth purposeful. And I think we're going to look at Tiger and wonder the same thing. Is it over for him? A few young players, are they so much better? I mean, Jason Day hitting it 375 yards, but then admitting, well, you know, Rory is actually a little longer than I am, and Jordan speaks getting up and down from everywhere. All these kids watch Tiger do what he did, and that's what I love among a million things I love about golf. But the clash of generations, and seeing Gary Player, and Palmer, and Nicholas, who battled, and having Nicholas pushed by Lanny Watkins, and Tom Watson, and Johnny Miller, and Raymond Floyd. And I think that's one thing the golf fan really wants to see. They want to see Tiger and Rory. They want to see Tiger in speed. And believe me, those young players, they think, you know, Rory tweets about it, how much he wants Tiger to get back healthy, so they can do battle at some level of being at just the height of their power. At least Tiger is at a more powerful place. Please me is right now. This is a respectful generation of young players that I think we can really admire now, Damon. They may not be fully versed in all the, you know, historical landmarks and the boxes that were checked through the years by these great players in the game, but they get it. They understand the most important figures in the game, laid the groundwork, and were responsible for all the money and all the fame that they're playing for today. Don't you think? I do. I think they're respectful of the history of the game. I think they're respectful of each other. And, you know, I was in Tampa when, at the Valspar, when Jordan Speaks had a bad round and someone on social media said, you know, you're rubbish if you're not making any putts and speak, you know, not only to speak, you know, shoot back at that fan, but, but a Rory McQuar came to his defense and said, hey, you know, leave him alone. He's going to be just fine. You know, I've got two majors at the age of 22, and there's nothing reason to worry about Jordan Speaks. I do think among those players, when you see Ricky playing with Rory and Ricky playing with Jordan and Rory and Jason, there's a comfort level. They all know that they're all good. They're all talented. They're all young, wealthy, happy, and it just seems like there's a nice, you know, they haven't had a lot of battles yet. We obviously saw Speaks in day at the PGA Championship, but, like then, Jordan already had two majors, you know, to the 2015 teams. There's a lot of respect between these guys, and I think it's healthy, and we'll see how how friendly they remain if they have those battles that Jack and Arnie had, you know, get three or four of those in, you know, in our rearview mirror. It'll be interesting to see if the relationship between these men changed. I don't think it'll change too much. I think they really do like each other. The storylines are so juicy every year leading into the Masters, and I think some of it has to do with the fact that it's the first one, and it's a big deal to people who are just casual golf fans. But you've got Adam Scott, who's already won twice. You've got Jason Day, who's on top of the world right now, Speeth in his title defense, whereas his game, Matt McElroy, going after the career grand slam, Bubba Watson has looked unbeatable at times and looked like he could pulverize that golf course for years to come. Who's going to emerge from that pack, Damon Ours, or is there someone else who's likely to challenge? Josh, it's a great question. I really, I mean, I picked Jason Day at the end of last year. He was my Masters pick. I'm definitely not going to change that now, considering his form, as long as his back holds up. My goodness, when you swing that hard, I guess it's going to be always a question. We know he had some issues, you know, vertigo to other injuries, shoulder-hand. He's just kind of, you know, been snicked a little bit, but my buddy Steve Sands said he doesn't see Jason Day as fragile. He sees him as someone who showed some toughness in the last month in winning and grinding out those wins, as he did at Bay Hill on the match play. But to me, I think it's Jason Day. I also look at the South Africans, though, and I look at them as a group. But Louie Hughes pays and Charles Sworkel and Brandon Grace. I remember talking to Johann Rupert, the billionaire South African businessman who said his two greatest sadness is in his life. And golf were not having this opportunity to watch Charles for the green jacket on Louie, which he would have done in 2012. I'd rather not hit that hook shot in his second sadness was that Tom Watson, not winning that six open at Turnberry. But I think the South African contingent is very strong outside of the usual substance. What we're talking about is the day speed above a factor. I think the South African strength, those three players in particular, Louie, Charles, and Brandon Grace, who did very well in the majors last year. That's a group I'm looking very closely at. As we record this, there is an article that just went up on GolfChannel.com that our guest Damon Hack has written. The subject is Sergio Garcia, one of the most fascinating mercurial and enigmatic figures in the game over the last couple of decades. How did the story come about and how did the experience the exchanges go with Garcia? Yeah, it was fun. I was walking around the office one day and Jay Coppen, who's an editor at the GolfChannel.com. And hey Damon, would you like to write something for the master's time period? And I just watched Sergio on TV at the Honda where he'd been in contention and then Adam Beaten. But I just said Sergio. I said Sergio is endlessly fascinating. I had written about him before for Sports Illustrated about six years ago. So I dug up some of the quotes from there. I found a quote from Jose Maria Olafable in 1999 after Sergio finished second to Tiger at Medina. And everyone would say, "Wow, here's the new rival. This guy's going to win a bunch of major championships." And here's Jose Maria Olafable, a few weeks later, an accurate thing. You know what, guys? Hold the phone now. This is a 19-year-old who doesn't know what pressure is. Let's wait and see where he is in a few years' time when suddenly he's expected to win every golf tournament that he tees it up in. That's very difficult. And I'm like, "Well, I didn't remember it at the time when he said it." But that's my lead quote of the story. And then I say, "Look, here we are 17 years later in Sergio Garcia, not like it's not of a major championship. He's not among the list of favorites. He used to always tend to be. You know, you got to talk about Sergio, and maybe in some cases it'll help him that he's not in the spotlight anymore with all these young players doing well. But I called up Lanny Watkins in the Hall of Fame. There's a major champion that I called, Hank Haney, who was at the Foying Lake Open in '06, and Tiger beat Sergio in the final group. But I asked them both, "Do you think Sergio has what it takes to win a major championship?" And they both basically said, "You know what? I think his time has passed." I think he's putting improved too late for his ball striking weather at the time, and that he's been so self-pitting in too many situations, and I kind of bring some of those examples up. And I also bring up some of his great play in the players' championship, but the faculty led the PGA Tour in ball striking in 2005, and it was fourth in ball striking in 2004, and that's Scott Hooks, that he's the best long, straight driver of the golf ball since Greg Norman. So there's some positive, yes, there's some controversy, yes, that he'd bring up the Tiger issue with the players back in 2013, and it's just even eminently fascinating and endlessly fascinating to offer. And at 36 years of age, you have to wonder if he believes he can win anymore. Yeah. Well, that was my question. There was that series of remarks he made a few years ago where he said, "Maybe I just don't have what it takes psychologically." And some people reacted and thought, "Maybe he's just trying to sort of turn the tables on himself with some strange, you know, reverse psychology to ease the pressure that he feels in major championships." Do you sense, you know, deep down that he feels like his window is closed? You know what's interesting, he did a nice interview with Golf Magazine where he still believes he can get it done. I tend to go with my experiences with him being around him. The quotes that you're talking about, they're also in my story, are from the Masters. And he said, "I got to start playing for a second. I'm not good enough to win in any major." And I think a lot of it goes back to his battles with Tiger, to the loss to Podrick at Karnusti in '07 and again to Podrick in '08 at the PGA at Oakland Hills. I thought I saw a defeatist Sergio in 2014 when he was in contention with Rory and Fowler. I just thought he just gave up too much ground too easily. I saw too much comfort and joy in finishing runner-up. I just think he's been so close that I don't know if he wants to get his heart broken anymore. I think he's tired of getting his heart broken and I just don't know if he can do it, if he can pull off a daring car from late in his career. I just don't know if he'll allow himself to put himself in that position for heartbreak anymore. That's my gut tells me. And I think in my story since listen, we all knew Jack Nipples was the best, but we all beat him. We all beat him at some point. We knew he was the best driver, but you have to want to beat the best. He's not sure that Sergio had that mentality enough that you want to beat the best. You may not be the best golfer of your era, but you kind of want to beat the best. And at least still Nicholson figured it out after spinning his wheels for a decade and a half. He finally said, "I'm going to embrace the era that I'm in. I'm going to embrace the Tiger with the era instead of wanting that I'm living in the Tiger with the era." I can't wait to read that. Damon Hack on Sergio Garcia Golf Channel.com. Was it fun to get the juices flowing and do a deep dive on an interview subject? Because your writing was honestly some of my favorite through the years. Not just your golf writing for the times, but you're on a fell coverage in Sports Illustrated. I always went right to it instinctively. So was it fun to sort of jump back into it? It really was. And you could probably tell how excited I am and even talking about it. I had a editor who came out and changed to that channel.com. It was his Damon Genius favorite. We had a couple of stories for us every now and then. It'll make you happy. It'll make me happy. It has made me a little bit happier to write again. I actually think it makes me a little bit better on television when I'm writing. Because I guess my brain is always kind of working and I'm thinking about these issues. And so I plan to write a little bit more than I have been for Golf Channel.com. And I'll still be doing Morning Drive as well. But I think you're right. I think it does make me happier. Alan Tasia's writing makes me happier. I look forward to writing some more pieces for the.com. That is awesome. And that's good news for readers of Golf Channel.com. Golf fans in general. How are the boys? How are the trips? What are the ages? What sports are they into these days? They'll be five in June. They're at school right now. They're an absolute blast. They're totally into Star Wars and dinosaurs. So we've got like high low red, you know, all these lightsabers and dark mall and general grieves. I'll be living my own youth with my boys in Star Wars, which has been pretty cool. You've got to get some sports posters on their wall. If you want to relive your youth. Well, you know what? I do have a Jackie Robinson picture on my wall. I got a tiger with some memorabilia from him. So yeah, you know, I'm breaking them. They don't want to be well-rounded before I put the full court sports press on them. And my wife wants them to be well-rounded too. So they're taking violin just to kind of round out their sports and, you know, action figure lifestyle right now. Hey, Ken Burns has a new documentary on Jackie Robinson coming out. I think it's four hours, which is, you know, a very small scale compared to the long docus that Burns has done in the past. But that should be really fascinating, I would think. I will check it out. My boys will probably need to watch it in segments because their attention span is so short. But that's a great idea. We'll watch it as a family. At Damon Hack GC, always fun catching up, Damon. I appreciate some time. Enjoy the Masters next week. You look funny. Talk to you soon, buddy. I always felt like Damon Hack's work in sports illustrated and the New York Times through the years was superb. The NFL beat that he was on for SI for many years, the PGA2 and professional golf for the times. And now, that is with Golf Channel. I can really appreciate a television commentator who is more than a talking head, you know, for lack of a better term. He's got a reporter's sensibility. That never leaves those guys. And it's always inside of them. Interesting chat about Tiger we had. And Sergio as well in the article that he wrote for GolfChannel.com about Garcia. And also, Damon Hack's thoughts on next week's Masters. It has been a while since we talked to my next guest. Entirely too long, in fact, since Jonathan Wall, PGA2.com's equipment insider joined us here. And now that we're a podcast and we're doing this a few days a week, Mr. Wall, I'm very fired up about having you back in the rotation. How you been? Hey, Swanee, it's always great to talk to you. I agree. It has been way too long. I was starting to wonder if you're giving me the cold shoulder. No, no, no, no. Not at all. Everything is dictated by people way above my peg grade, believe me. How was the week in Austin? It was a full week for you and your native Texas there, wasn't it? Yeah, it was. You know, and that's one of those weeks where, you know, with the match play going on, there, so many matches, it's tough to really keep tabs on things so it's good to have, you know, extra feet on the ground. And, you know, good to have another home game. I mean, I already get, Swanee, I already get four. I mean, yeah, I consider Houston and San Antonio just to be relatively, you know, be home games for me. They're still in the state. But yeah, it's at Austin. And that is such a classic country club. You know, they say it's the oldest club in the state of Texas. It's moved three times, but still has a lot of history. And you could tell that is an old school track. I mean, it plays under 7,000 from the member teams. They just stretched out over 7,000 for that week. But, I mean, players talked about how tough those greens were. And I think when you had the wins as kind of a defense mechanism for the golf course and you throw in those greens, which are really tricky, I think it makes for an awesome match play golf course. And I'm looking forward to seeing how players kind of get used to it as they go on over the next few years. Yeah, Tony Finau was also winner last week in Puerto Rico. That was opposite the match play in Austin. I know you had a really good Q&A with Big Tony that ran on the site earlier this week, John. And, boy, you talk about an effective testimonial for an equipment company. There's no stronger evidence of that than a player winning, especially in this case for Tony Finau, who's relatively new in the Nike stable, right? Exactly, you know, and Tony, what I really liked about him is he is brutally honest. You know, sometimes when you talk to players about their equipment, you're not really quite sure if you're getting kind of the company line or if you're really getting how they feel. And, you know, he was very honest with me and talked about, you know, the first question I asked him was about, you know, assess his first three months. And he said, look, I haven't performed as well. He's like, it's not probably not the golf clubs, but it's definitely the transitions that have been a little bit more difficult than I thought it would be. Just to try and get used to those clubs, you know, he just talked about the consistency wasn't there. And, you know, it just wasn't scoring. And then all of a sudden he just said something clicked, you know, they started working. One thing he really hit on was the iron. He said they just couldn't get the set up right, tried some different shaft combinations, kind of moved the loft around a little bit. And it was just, all of a sudden, like they had a ureca moment in Tampa. And, you know, he makes the cut on the number at Bay Hill. And he said, at that point, he just felt like he had confidence in his sticks. And, you know, he wasn't kidding. I mean, he goes out and he wins at Puerto Rico. So, you know, guys always talked about that there's a transition period. Some guys, it takes a little bit longer than others. You know, those like Rory Mack were, he put under the microscope immediately when they switched to Nike. So, it happens. But I think if you would have told Tony's female that he'd win his first PGA Tour event three months into having a new Nike deal, I think he might have looked at you with a bit of skepticism because I don't think any guy expects to win that quickly with new gear. But, you know, for some, they just, again, it clicks with them. And he talked about how everything in the bag right now just seems to be working. Yeah. So cool that he won. I think it's a great way to introduce new fans to the game when they see a guy like this who looks like he can play three different sports. He's telegenic. He's multicultural. He's got a great back story. And I think this is the first of many for Tony Feeney now. Didn't get him into the Masters, but I'm sure he'll be in Augusta for years to come. This is a big week. And equipment-wise, it's always fascinating. I find, you know, the area in advance of these big events and major championships, John, where these players have an opportunity to make little tweaks throughout the bag. And I would think with so much at stake next week, we're talking minor alterations, if anything, and not overhauls, right? Exactly. You know, and this is the thing that I always -- I love the run up to the Masters, because I always like to see if guys are going to make major changes, or, again, as you mentioned, just some minor ones, which I think most players are. You know, but we have seen some guys overhaul bags completely. If you look to last your Ricky Fowler, put in a brain set of irons, new woods, and even change his wedge gapping just for Augusta. So there are some guys that will go to that extreme. There are others that, you know, I talk to -- I think Charles Schwartz will really -- I had a chance to chat with him and use him this week. And he really told me something that I stuck with me. You know, we always talk about guys tweaking their wedges. And I feel like that seems to be the biggest thing that guys change for Augusta, because one, they have the elevated putting surfaces. Two, the areas around the greens are very, very firm. So a lot of players will go to a lower bounce wedge, sometimes go to like a 62 or 64 degree, all like a Phil Mickelson, just because they want to get the ball up quickly and get it down quickly. You don't really want to try and mess with those putting surfaces too much. But Charles, I asked him, I said, do you make any changes? And he said, you know what? I don't make any changes for Augusta. And he goes, maybe that's why I've had so much success there, because I don't overanalyze. Yeah, interesting. And I thought, you know, that's a really interesting point, because, again, I always am looking for the changes. I'm not looking for the guys that don't make them. But here's a major winner, a guy who wanted Augusta saying, maybe my success is due to the fact that I haven't made any changes. So, again, they're just too different, you know, lines of, you know, thinking when it comes to making adjustments for Augusta. I think the biggest one is probably going to be Ricky Fowler. He put this new Cobra 5 wood in the bag. I've got a story up on it on the website right now. The coolest part about this one is they took his old biocell 5 wood. And he had been working with Butch Harmon and Butch said, look, Ricky, what you need to do is we need to find a club for you that you can reach these par 5s in two. Now, the trick to that is that most of these par 5s that you're going to reach them in two, because the areas are so firm as you really need to have a club that's going to come in high, launch high, and drop in. So, he suggests he's getting a club with rails. Now, Cobra's made a club in the past called the Bathler. It had rails on the bottom. It helped with turf interaction. But the interesting thing about these rails is they actually add more weight to the soul. So, that's how it's going to help kind of increase this launch. So, Cobra's tour of Ben Shoman went in and welded. And I've, again, got photos up. It's crazy. They called the Frankenstein Club, the initial prototype. They welded rails onto the bottom of Ricky's 5 wood that he was playing at the time. And he tested this thing and loved it. And they've come out with a new version, obviously. It doesn't look like a Frankenstein Club. But the one shot that Ricky was talking about is the second shot into 15 wanting to have a club that could reach that green in two. So, you know, that I think is probably going to be one of the bigger stories going into a guess. And we may see some changes next week, but again, changes, I think, will be minimal for this event. The big ones usually tend to happen around the US Open and Open Championship. It's fascinating. You hear players talk about wanting to see their games peak for certain events. And that doesn't just mean their performance on the course. That means their physical conditioning. That means their mental acuity in preparation. That means their equipment. All of it, just across the board, how they dial it in and demonstrate how much it means to them always fascinates me. So, Ricky's got the baffler, the 5 wood in there. How about McElroy and his pursuit of the Grand Slam? Are you going to keep that two iron in the bag next week? You know, I'm kind of curious because, because I did, I chatted with Rory and Austin about this because I was literally just passing by his golf bag and I noticed it in there. And I thought, you know, that's a club. I saw him testing it at Bay Hill, but it never went in play and talked to Nike. And they said, you know, it's kind of one of those clubs where you may put it in at some point. You know, he talked about the wind conditions being a huge reason for putting this Nike. This Nike Vaporfly Pro 2 iron in. It looks completely different than the rest of his blade iron. It's got a black head. It's got a really mean look to it. And he told me he was hitting it, you know, 265, 270 carrying. Roll out 290. And I'm thinking, man, that's that. I mean, that's a club. That could definitely be one that you would put in the bag for Augusta. Why not? If you're hitting it that well with a club like that, you know, again, we've talked about it before. You know, these new more forgiving long irons that guys are swapping out their, you know, their blade long irons for that, you know, they have hollow construction. So they're going to be, you know, the face on them. They're really hot. But again, they launch really high. So I can definitely see Rory, you know, keeping this in the bag. It just really depends on how comfortable I guess he feels with it at Augusta. I'm sure he's going to lock some practice rounds with both that two iron in his five wood to kind of see which one fits his game. But man, Swan, if you've got a club that can you can get out there 290? I mean, I don't know how you wouldn't want to have something like that in the bag for Augusta. And, you know, I'm curious to see how many guys next week go with the more forgiving long irons and how many go with, with the five woods because we really have seen a trend. And it's changed in the last few years where we used to see guys with a hybrid in the bag, a five wood. And now we're really starting to see companies create these more forgiving long irons. And guys are embracing them out on tour because they love the fact that they have a long iron in their hand that doesn't look like a hybrid. Some guys don't like to look up a hybrid at address. And just the way that it launches, you know, just talking. I remember initially when they first started coming out talking to Keegan Bradley and he said, you know, it's just, it's seeing it in a different window with a hybrid. Then you get these long irons and it's a little bit more in line with where you would see a long iron fly. And I think that's why a lot of guys like it is they can really put these clubs in and they're more versatile than a hybrid. And again, you see a lot of big names doing it. And we saw a bunch of them in Austin that were put in the bag as well. How about threads in apparel Augusta? I guess through the years was a little more traditional in the way players would dress. Kind of like Wimbledon, I suppose, in Tennessee if you were to draw a V analogy. We've seen that, we've seen that loosen up. Any green hues and tones that are a little bit different? We might see introduced next week. You know, Rory had a pair of Nike shoes that were kind of like a mastered, inspired version. And I don't know if Nike is kind of working on something behind the scenes for him. But, you know, I'm really surprised. I have not seen a lot of green in scripting. That's the apparel scripting that I've seen a lot of these companies, for instance, Adidas. They've got Jason Day, Dustin, Sergio. All these guys are going to be wearing red, gray, and blue. That's it. And there's not a lot of designs look cool. But there isn't really a lot of masters inspired colors. And I feel like it's kind of shifted away from that because we did see a lot more of the green and guys kind of, you know, getting excited about wearing, you know, master's colors for the tournament at Augusta. But not so much the one I do have to say that I really love is Patrick Reed. I saw his apparel scripting for the masters. He's going to be wearing red and black on Sunday. So at least somebody in the field is going to be wearing red and black. He might not be a tiger, but hey, if it's going to be somebody, I would love to have it be Peter Reed and it looks like it is. Oh, my gosh. I have not unveiled my pick yet because I don't know who it is. I've narrowed it down to maybe a half dozen or so guys. Do you have a lean or do you have one you're ready to take to the bank here? Yeah. I mean, I just want to get hate doing it because it's such an obvious pick, but I have to go with Bubba. You know, it's even year. I mean, he wins in 12, he wins in 14. I still tell people and I will stick with this until Bubba decides to retire. I mean, he's going to win at least three or four green jackets in my opinion. I mean, this golf course until they can build a golf course with trees that are a thousand feet tall. You know, I just I can't I can't see him bubba proofing this golf course because he just he takes angles that that most players wouldn't even consider, even if they were trying to be aggressive. You know, he just his game fits that golf course. I just it'd be tough to go against him. If you were going to pick three guys and Bubba was in there, I would probably take that group because Bubba is one of those guys. He's going to he's going to win at least one more. I would think two more green jackets. And it's an even year swanny. So I'm going to keep with the even years thing until Italy proves it wrong. Speaking of even years, Arnold Palmer, 58, 60, 62, and 64. Michael Bamberger wrote a great piece that ran an SI this week about the nine year run during which Jack Arnie and Gary won eight of the nine. Only art wall in 1959 was the non winner among the big three. And I was glad to see ESPN classic is going to run every master's. I don't know, John, if it's in its entirety or just sort of a condensed highlight package, but everyone since 1960 is going to run on ESPN classic. Very cool. I'm going to be needing lots and lots of cat bees starting, starting on the first day when they go to 1960. I'm going to settle into my couch and watch as many as I can because I don't even care if it's a condensed version of the highlights. The fact that they're going to show from from 60 all the way up to last year. I think it's just so cool. You know, because there are probably a lot of masters in theirs for people. You might flip on your TV and see me. I totally forgot about that. So it's a great way to look back at some classic masters finishes. And man, there are a lot of them. Hopefully we get another one next week. Just hydrate. Keep hydrating, especially if you're pumping that caffeine. How are your little guys? They must be closing in on like two and four years old, right? We're supposed to celebrate birthdays. Our daughter is going to be turning. She's turning four next week and our son turns to the end of April. She was actually born on Masters Sunday, the year that Bubba won in 2012. So that's always kind of a special one for me. But yeah, they're doing awesome. We're going to be doing and I'm pretty sure I'm the only one that's going to be doing a birthday party with fishing. Where the wife's family raised his rainbow trout. I'm not even kidding. They raised rainbow trout and her dad's going to bring down a truck with live fish and we're going to put them in and upon. Our friend yard and the kids are going to get the fish for live trout. How cool is that? Yeah, there's no way that will end badly. You might want to just be versed on how to pull a hook out of a young person's eye, just in case. Hey, listen, the invitation is open to you if you want to come and do some fishing and catch one of your grounds. Right on, very kind of. Jonathan, our wall is how you follow them on Twitter. Good to have you back in the rotation, John. Looking forward to keeping this going. Thanks. Yeah, thanks, Juan. Okay, kids, that will do it for today's edition of the Talk of the Tour podcast. We're going to do one on Monday of Masters Week and then we will also record one that should run next Wednesday as well. So we'll just crank out two next week. I'm actually off for a few days. Then we'll get it going again with the following week of the PGA Tour event in Hilton Head, South Carolina, the Heritage. I want to thank my guests today, Damon Hack of Golf Channel, whose dad still still is not over. Elgin Baylor's retirement from the Lakers 50 years ago. That's funny. And Jonathan Wall, our equipment editor, who somehow thinks that fishing for striped bass is a good idea for a two-year-old birthday party. That's going to end badly, and I warned him. Remember, you can log onto PGA Tour.com/podcasts, learn more about and hear the latest editions of any of our programs that used to stream live on PGA Tour.com. You can listen to or download the podcast there, including Talk of the Tour, of course. Also, the latest editions of PGA Tour replay. All of it. Available. All of our shows by visiting PGA Tour.com/podcasts and subscribe today. And you can also access the content via iTunes, Stitcher, or TuneIn. I'm John Swanson. Let me leave you with a little zen for the weekend, people. Wake up in the morning, look in the mirror, and laugh at yourself. I've done it. It works. Think about it, people. Have a great weekend. I'll talk to you on Monday. Monday.