All Pleasure No Guilt: A TV Recap Podcast
APNG Presents - 'FROM' - S3e1 - TV Recap, Theories & More
Boyd feels the town slipping away from him as the weather grows colder and the residents more desperate.
Our Links: https://linktr.ee/allpleasurenoguilt
Marvellous Redditor TaranMatharu : https://www.reddit.com/r/FromTVEpix/comments/13w7cik/from_theory_updated_a_game_of_tarot_between_an/
https://www.reddit.com/r/FromTVEpix/comments/14oan4z/the_beothuk_explorers_witch_board_card_games/
Drawings by 'The Last Beothuk' Shanawadithit:
http://central.bac-lac.gc.ca/.redirect?app=fonandcol&id=2928478&lang=eng
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- Broadcast on:
- 25 Sep 2024
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[Music] Hello and welcome to a new episode of All Pleasure, No Guilt. Today we're going to take a little departure from our reality home and we're going to a different kind of home, a scripted home, a scripted town. We're talking from season three, episode one. My name's Jack and with me is my wonderful co-host, Michelle. Michelle, please introduce yourself to our new listeners. Hello new listeners. My name is Michelle, as Jack said. I am a failed actress. I also have a background working in bits and pieces of film and television, went to film school, majored in screenwriting, worked in PR for a while, reputation management, so mostly politicians and high net worth individuals, businessmen, that kind of thing. If anybody knows how to string together a narrative, it's me. If anybody knows how to look at things from every angle, it's me. I'm also proudly and very vocally autistic and I have ADHD, so I become obsessed with minor details and sometimes I miss them out altogether. I originally hailed from Washington DC and spent 15 years in London and at the moment I'm here in Los Angeles, so I am super excited. Before Jack introduces himself, I'm just going to explain a little bit what we're going to do today. I'm going to share my favorite fan theory that I've come across. I'm not going to go super into detail there. We are going to talk about the highlights of the episode, so not a beat for beat recap, but just, you know. One of a thematic discussion. Yes, you watched the show. You don't need us to read out the lines. And then we're going to talk about my theory based on a little research that I've done. Well, and thanks to Michelle's beautifully autistic mind. We got really into some interesting territory because there's a lot to get into with a show like this. And before we go too far along, let me just give you a quick rundown of me. I'm from New York originally been in LA about 10 years. I've worked on things you have heard of before. I've worked for the New York Post and CBS and the Howard Stern show and the Artie Lang show. And you've heard my voice on commercials. You don't know it, but you have. I was a voice over guy for a long time, not really doing that right now, focused on this project. And I've been watching from since the beginning, was actually what made me want to start a podcast to begin with. And there's just, there's so much in this show. And, you know, I feel like it's a really great place to dive in. It's full of it's from the creators of Lost, as you all know. So we have the puzzle box of it all of it all. And, you know, I feel like this is a good place to start doing something a little bit different for us. And why are we covering this show? We focused on relationships and what, you know, when I introduced Michelle to this show just recently, and she really power watched to get ready for this, I sure did, is I was, we were talking about how we do a thematic relationship discussion and moving away from reality TV, which in a lot of ways feels less real than from. We were curious and thinking about, you know, we were kind of banding about ideas of, you know, who, which one of us would survive? And how would we handle? Would we go to the town? Would we go to Colony House? And that discussion kept growing. And it, we realized, okay, this fits what we do here, because we like to talk about societal interactions and people working with people, people working against people, monsters working against people. That's right. And we're all about the subtext, the things that are shown, but not told. So, yeah, that's... And I do want to say straight up, obviously, look, I've been a fan of this show, I've consumed podcasts for this show and similar shows. We want your theories, we want your thoughts, and, you know, you're going to be able to reach us in a couple of different places. Absolutely. The first of which is our Google Voice line, which you will have immediate access to at the $5 level of our Patreon, which is patreon.com/apng. I think. We'll put the link in the show notes. Trust the notes. But if you search Patreon for all pleasure, no guilt, you'll find us. It's got our faces on it and everything. We're looking into other methods for that, but we really want this to be a dialogue, and not just between us, but with you, the audience, we really want to hear your theories. You can write to us anytime at apngpod@gmail.com. We will read your comments on the air. You don't have to pay for that. And you can include your name if you do want credit, but you don't have to pay. You can always stay anonymous here. Absolutely right. We are really excited. One of the great privileges of covering a show like this is the audience. Partition, partition, partition. Partition, partition. So we would love to hear from you. Now, without further ado, let's get on with the show. Just going to give one little disclaimer here, just in case there's any extra sensitive people out there. We're sensitive, but we like to have a good time, and we're going to make jokes. So I'm just getting that out of the way now. Yeah, and we swear a lot. We do. This is a, suppose this is, we should just say up front, it's marked, but it's an NSFW. Yeah, probably. Like if you've got kids that are like three and under, you're probably safe, but we do have frank discussions about what people's pubic hair might look like and things like that. So yes, without further ado, Michelle, let's get into it. Where do you want to start? Do we want to pick everyone? Everyone's caught up. Do we need to do any sort of season two refresher or anything? I think we can just pick it up. No, I think we should just do what I said we were going to do at the beginning of the show, which if you were listening, is starting with a Reddit user whose name is, and I apologize if I'm mispronouncing, I apologize ahead of time for every mispronunciation, I am trying my best. I do too. We're doing our best and please feel free to correct us if we say anything wrong. There is a Reddit user named Taryn Matheroo, who is a writer himself. He has presented an extremely compelling tarot card theory or tarot game theory. Now, he's done an excellent job and I will post links to this in the show notes. There's two posts in particular. The basis of this theory is that there was a witch whose child was stolen from her. It's unclear whether she was part of the indigenous population in Newfoundland, Canada, where this show is not set, but where it's filmed. Nova Scotia Atlantic Province. Yes, exactly. Indigenous Canadian people, it's not mentioned in the theory, and if I miss that, I'm sorry, but she's an accused witch whose child is taken away from her. She is killed. She plays a game of Tarot Kay, which is the original tarot card game from the late 1400s. I'm going to say game. I'm an average Joe. I don't, but I like tarot. I watch tarot on YouTube. Is it a game? Or is there a game that goes along with tarot? There is, I mean, there's infinite number of games you can play with it, really. It's so old, you can make up your own rules, and it's not that big of a deal. But essentially, a card game of a sort, not necessarily based within tarot when you're doing the game. Yes. Correct. This, I believe it's a gentleman. This gentleman's theory is essentially about this accused witch making a deal with the devil or the man in black. Little lost callback right there. Right. To get her child back. And then there's various correspondences with archetypes. Archetypes are another thing that lots of fans have talked about. But essentially, this is a game between two sides. And unlike many discussions that we're having in the world at the moment, it's nuanced. There isn't one entirely bad side and one entirely good side. But it's said that, for example, Father Kotry may represent the man in black. And that's the side that Boyd is on. Whereas the other side is more corresponding with the witch. Victor, for example. To use one tiny piece to illustrate it, a gentleman who wrote this theory has said that the witch corresponds with the star card in tarot. And we hear the song Twinkle Twinkle Little Star. So the witch could be the one protecting Victor. We don't know. So I just wanted to throw that out there. There's even videos on YouTube that explain this theory. So if you're a TLDR person, which will never be me, that's not a show for that. No, that's not a judgment. I could read things forever. That's my preferred way to process an episode. Well, I have to say, I think that works for the audience. Because as we've seen, I mean, I'm enthralled by the interest and the talk and the discussion going on online. I mean, there's a lot of from fans out there. Yes. And we will post links to our favorite YouTube channels. Any YouTube creators, any other podcasters, people who want to collaborate, we are open email us apngpod@gmail.com. I have to say, before you go forward here, it was sort of, you know, let's just say we all know this episode ends a little dark. And it was one of those things where I was watching this with Michelle and my wife, Diana, and they've both kind of gotten pulled into it by me because I was like, it's a really cool show. And they don't really love scary things necessarily. That's not true. I do. She doesn't. You do. But, you know, this rattled you. It was late Sunday. I don't like torture of any kind. It was one of those things, folks, where that episode ends. And I'm like, damn, now no one's going to want a podcast about this with me. And that only lasted for like 20 minutes. And then Michelle went into her deep dive and stayed in that deep dive for about 48 hours. I sure did. Now, should we get to the episode breakdown? Yes, we should. I didn't want to jump back and forth too much. So I've done this by location. Yeah, I like this. And again, we are working on this. So if if there's any feedback on the way we're breaking things down, let us know. But we really like the location breakdown because as we see in this episode, we have no idea what the timeline is. Nope. After all, and we'll get to this, but, you know, I don't know, Victor's dad looks like he's about 52 and Victor's about 52. So clearly, the trees moving and the slow season changes are having an effect. Yeah, they look the same age, I thought. Anyway, Camden Maine is significant to me. Oh, this was this was a fun little Easter egg for you. Yes, my father's uncle bought a piece of land and built a cottage. And all right, I don't accept that. It's not like I did it. He bought a piece of land and built a small cottage that fortunately fingers and toes crossed is still in my family, two generations on in Camden, Maine. And so I know this town and this area like the back of my hand. And I noticed that you had a reaction at the end of season two, at the end, when Tabitha's pushed through the lighthouse window, you, it looked familiar to you and you couldn't quite place it. The background looked really familiar. It did. I think the only thing that I can add is someone who's, you know, been there many, many times is that that view can only be taken a top one of three mountains that are on the bay. There isn't a hospital up there. And they didn't film it there. So I didn't expect it to look exactly like Camden. How was the, did it look pretty good in terms of like, I know the town that they're using that they're shooting in a Nova Scotia is a good deal larger than Camden, which is quite small. Does it have like the feel though? Does it have that Northeast New England? Yeah, definitely. I, what I love most about the Camden apart from everything really is that the town itself will not allow any franchises to build. So there's no fast food. There's no like dollar tree. There's no anything like that. Is it a town of mom and pop shops? It is. Yeah, which I think is really special. I love that. And the main street is just so beautifully kept. And anyway, it's really, it's really nice. So it's clean like Canada. Yes, it's clean like Canada. It's clean. Yeah. So Tabitha wakes up there. The doctor foolishly in my opinion says, oh, the police are on their way, which causes her to run because obviously she doesn't want to get trapped somewhere having to explain her whereabouts. Well, it did lead to when she gets up in the hospital at the end of season two, you specifically said, okay, at least she wasn't an idiot pulling her IV out of her arm. But of course, yeah, and nothing happened. As long as you put pressure on that area, it doesn't come like squirting out. But don't ask how I know that. It's not a good idea. Please don't ever do that. Interesting bits and pieces in this, the PA repeats in the hospital, repeats the number three, the numbers three to one in a countdown fashion repeatedly. Well, not. I think it's good. Well, she's saying three, two, one, three, two, one, three, two, one sounds coded to some degree. Okay. Hey, that's my theory. We're going to get to each of our theories in this. Yes. Keep going. I won't cut you off again. Another thing that I found. Thank you. It's a rare quality in a heterosexual man. How did the priest in the church know that her baby was a he? That was a really good question because he says what was his name. Not what was the child's name. Also, another eagle eyed Redditor looked up the Bible verse in the church and it corresponds with something that at the end of it mentions like creatures coming forth from the forest. Yes. So that's another interesting little. No, I mean, there's there's a lot here. I mean, I feel like there's a lot of it's just it's very lore heavy and it's funny because like there's some things and I don't know about you. I'm just going to say this real fast, but like some of the lore heavy stuff on things like Game of Thrones where you're going back and forth between the source material and the show gets a little like heavy where I think the theory crafting on this kind of show and the lore. I feel like it's just there's a lot to mine from and I feel like there's just there's a lot happening. There's not a lot of stagnant pieces on this show, which is something which is kind of funny because it's about a stagnant town, but everything it's all about the tornado of activity within the town. Right. While we're here and before we move on. Still in Camden. Yes. Still in Camden. So Tabitha takes the lunchbox with Victor's address in it. She encounters an older gentleman. He immediately recognizes the lunchbox and said where it says where did you get that? Now, unpopular theory with me. Tabitha's Victor's missing sister Eloise. I hate that theory and disagree with it. I don't think it makes any sense. Also, I mean, look, she calls her mother. She's speaking Spanish to her mother. She didn't speak Spanish to her mother. Yeah. Her mother spoke Spanish. Excuse me. I'm saying I said it wrong. Her mother's speaking to her in Spanish. They're having a bilingual conversation. There's been no suggestion that Victor is a bilingual person or comes from a bilingual background or anything. So not sure that that theory makes sense, but at the same time, we're learning new things about how time moves. Right. And she could have been adopted by a Spanish-speaking country or country, couple, family. Yes. This is true. If you like, I guess. I just, I think my, this was just my heavy reaction to like, I just, that's not where my brain's been going. I didn't, I don't like that because there's no precedent for it. Right. Something that I like, it's not established anywhere else. He doesn't recognize her. She doesn't see the drawings and start to remember. She doesn't make drawings herself as far as I understand. And I think that's something like, yes, could that work either way? Could it be that she's forgotten? And she would remember if she saw, but then, but then you have to go, she would remember if she saw the drawings, right? Surely. Well, because there's been nothing where anyone I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think anyone's having like crazy memory loss here, you know, I mean, from does not affect the memory. Except Jim. But I'm going to, we'll, we'll get to that in a bit because I think that- If you can't tell, we're super excited to talk about this and both of us kind of want to say all of the thoughts we have at the same time. Yes. But, you know, we're going to, we're going to break it down for you a little bit more. I also just drank like three espresso shots. So we're caffeinated for this one. Caffeinated. Let's go to the sheriff station. Yeah. It's interesting. I do like this theory about Father Khatri being the man in black or, and we'll talk about the man in black in a little bit. I was just laughing when you just brought up Father Khatri because you pointed out like, oh, ghost get haircuts. No, you pointed that out. Yeah. Oh, I am attributing my own jokes to you. I appreciate that. That's the ultimate sign of friendship. Giving me the jokes. You know, that hilarious thing. You said, oh, it was me. But he raises, Boyd raises the issue of, you know, that thing in the forest was not my wife, right? Yes. Now, I do buy into this tarot card theory, not which part of it. The part of it, so the devil card in the tarot, which y'all, I'm a tarot card reader myself. So I've been doing that for about 15 years on and off. It was an interesting job to have during COVID. More on that, some other time. The devil card features a torch, a devil figure. And there's no moral lens on tarot cards, if you get what I mean. People don't like to see the devil or the death card. Why not? But I think, and here, I'll leave this to you, but it's my understanding that people see devil death understandably. Those words are upsetting, but in tarot, they go a bit deeper than just the surface word. They do. And my understanding of tarot, and I'm sure there's many other perspectives on this, there isn't, it's a liminal space. It's a neutral point of view. There are archetypes, but nobody is entirely good or bad. And it's, it's moving beyond that binary, that good and evil binary that really serves us as a people and as a society. And it would be really great if we could start to apply that to everything in life. But instead, that's what we run to and what we grasp when we don't understand something. Anyway, the devil card features the devil figure typically has a torch in one hand that's pointing down, right? Yep. And so I was struck by that imagery that when Boyd was smashing the music box, he has that torch pointed down to the ground, because that's not something that you do typically. That's a, that's a really interesting point. And I feel like there is a lot of picture evidence here, graphic evidence, that does support this tarot theory. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And again, we, I wish we had time, but we just don't. And we'll get to it. We're going to have time. We got three months of this show. Yeah, but I mean, to really get into the nitty gritty, I'm just saying, please do go look at this theory, whichever way that you can, because I think it'll excite you as much as it excites. It'll pull you in even more. And I know you're all pulled in already. So anyway, Boyd says to Katri, that thing, whatever it was, sure as hell wasn't my wife. So what are you? Yeah, to which he responds, I'm afraid I can't answer that. I can't answer that for you, Boyd. Right. Now, can he not answer it? Because he can't answer it? Or because he doesn't know? That was what that was more my head went a little bit. Well, I've always thought that when you see a ghost, that's a projection of some aspect of your personality that you haven't resolved, ghosts and storytelling. I mean, like, a Christmas carol, for instance, is the classic one. They're all on what do you call unfinished? No. Disintegrated. Not disintegrated. Disintegrated. But unintegrated, if you like, I don't really know the word, but yeah. So Scrooge has to integrate these different disparate parts of his personality in order to-- Well, they're also sort of like amalgans a little bit, right? I mean, they represent a lot. Each of the ghosts, the ghosts of the past, the present and the future, that encompasses a lot. That's not one thing. Yes, but they're all unresolved fears that he has. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, right. About each of these periods in his-- Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I agree. Yeah. Also, he suffered from severe anxiety. Oh, I didn't mention that part. Michelle shared her issues. I'm an anxiety warrior. Folks. That's right. So let's move over to the town. So in the beginning, we have Ethan running away, apprehended by RIP Tian Chen. Yes, yes. And this is-- Ethan, I will say, Ethan's really grown on me over the course of the show. He did-- you had a really good point, though. You did, you called. You said, "Is Ethan the smallest 55-year-old man you've ever seen?" That's his energy. He's got sort of like old soul energy. Yeah, but like old before his time, like there's something-- Like a depression or a child? Yeah, there's something, but that reminds me of another Tabitha theory that corresponds with the Krahmanakal. Now, the Krahmanakal, of course, we all know, that's Ethan's book. Yes. So the Krahmanakal goes to the lonely dragon's cave to get a map that enables-- and forgive me, I don't know the gender of the Krahmanakal. The Krahmanakal is a woman. Oh, okay. Yeah, so-- Or a female, however, I'm not sure. I'm here for the theory that Tabitha is the Krahmanakal and Victor is the lonely dragon. That makes sense. Yeah, for sure. The map showing the way all of that lonely dragon, that, that, that for days. Yes. Now, Julie says to Jim, "None of this is your fault." Right. That's a big statement. It's also a big statement from Julie. Who never says anything of any consequences. Like, Pargent, but like, you were in a coma and having nightmare reality dream things. So do you really know what's not your dad's fault? Or are you just trying to be nice? Well, I think she was speaking on behalf of folks like us who don't understand the level of hate for Jim on the internet. Yeah, we don't understand it. We got to do this for a second here because neither of us hates Jim. We had, which we'll get to in the section. But, you know, we have some issue with Jim's strategic planning or lack thereof. Sure. But Jim's fine. He's, I don't know. Like, we followed him since episode one as like, this guy is getting used to being in Fromville, right? So, I don't know. Like, it feels a little harsh to be like, Jim sucks. He's an asshole. Like, all of his actions seem to be reactions to what other people do. Do you think that some of the hate for Jim is based on like, okay, let's do this radio tower thing. This is the biggest thing. And the fact that it didn't save them and it just created more mystery and more worry. Do you think that's like sort of the reaction to Jim or is it Jim's like, I couldn't quite gather what the hatred means. I don't know. But let us know if you have really strong feelings about one way or the other for that one way or the other. Let us know because he's completely inoffensive to me. I've never had an issue with him. I've had an issue with Randall. Who hasn't had an issue with? Right. If you're the dude sleeping on a bus without blacked out windows, well, monsters come out at night because you just got to a new town and everybody fucking hates you so much. You got a problem and you got to like, but Randall sort of, I'm not sure, he started to rebuild his reputation and kind of threw it away. And then kind of came back again. We'll get there. Yeah, I think he can't. So look, he tried to steal the goat. That was the one thing I was referring to. Victor points a gun at him. Meanwhile, Donan Boyd meet up to talk about the food shortage. It becomes apparent that the monsters let the animals out. And that's the point where Randall redeems himself by saving the Matthews children and Sarah from the monsters by sheltering them in the bus. That was great. That was great. I do just want to quickly discuss the intelligence of slaughtering your remaining animals when there is a food shortage coming up. They mentioned in this that the if they slaughter the animals, it will provide one month of food. No, she said one. She said if they just do the cows. Yeah, if they do the cows, but we already we now have lost a cow obviously going forward. But my point is I understand the cows and everything. But if time's moving so slowly, what is that 30 days buying you? I don't know. And we didn't see what happened like we didn't see how much food was taken when the townspeople overrun Kenny's mother's home and go to steal all of whatever, you know, I guess. I mean, I would have thought if they knew what kind of night she was going to have, maybe they would have thought twice to say the least. I thought. All right. I can't go there. No, we're not going there. But that's a nice transition actually to our next place. Actually, I'm going to switch the order of the these two things. Okay, we're going to go to Colony House first. So Fatima's throwing up. Apparently it's too cold to pee outside or some people are too good for it. I'm not. Look, I get that she's pregnant with a possible demon child or something and she's not feeling well. But like, first of all, why is there seemingly one bathroom in Colony House? That's an interesting thing. And then if there is one bathroom and all these people are sort of living in this hippie-ish lifestyle, don't you dig a trench like, you know, like 100 yards away from making out house that you could do that do that. They've had 20 years or 40 years of summer even. You don't think like this one toilet thing is not going to happen? It's bizarre. And then we have the, I think her name was Nikki, who's all bitchy to Fatima about being in the bathroom. But I don't know. And she might have a little bit of a point. I need zero encouragement to pee outside. I would so much rather pee behind a dumpster than in a dirty public restroom or gas station bathroom. See, it's so much different as a man because you, you know, you're less involved with the bathroom. Yeah, I get it. The vegetables are all spoiled. The soil is poison. Rotting from the ground. Yes. The soil is poison. I don't know if she meant that literally or if... I think she just meant the like top, a top layer of soil is like, no good. I don't think anything can grow because it was like... But I don't know. The way she was talking about it made it seem like it was like irradiated or something, not just like it was cold outside. So I don't quite know. I don't think we know how bad the poisoning is yet. But in Colony House, we get the scene with Elgin, who I find Elgin to be a really interesting character. I think he's a good actor. I think he brings a lot of like, he doesn't say that much sometimes, but he does a lot of facial acting. Yeah, a lot going on behind the eyes. The only thing that I'll pick him up on is he was mouthing some of the other actors' lines during the scene last season. But I will say, I could almost see. Couldn't you see? Couldn't you write that away a little bit? It's like, well, yeah, he has premonitions. Oh, maybe. Maybe that's what it is. Yeah, sure. It'd be an acting issue. No, I'm not here to hate. I think he's very interesting. And like you say, a lot of the work that he has to do is just what's behind the eyes, and he conveys that pretty well. And he does that from the start. I mean, when he's on the bus, we see he has the premonition about the town before we get to the town, right? Now, he's talking to Tilly, who I know a lot of people are suspicious. I know I'm not alone here. I like Tilly, and that makes me concerned. Michelle, you've also enjoyed Tilly. I like her, too. It's interesting that she mentions having had seven children, and that's the number of children in the uncouy tower. That was a lot cuter than they are. I know. They're more like uncouy. Yeah, super creepy. But there we get that seven kids that, I mean, generally people don't have seven children. So that's saying something. I also am now wondering. She also had seven people in her prayer circle. Seven people in the prayer circle. And I also wonder, she has like, she has like Cheshire cat energy for sure. She does, for sure. She's got major trickster energy. Yes. It's interesting that she said it's not so bad once you find the right hobby. That was really big. And now again, this is interesting because I'm just going to because it was a bit of a it's a quick scene. She's not really having a conversation with with Elgin. It's a dream. That's right. But I think she is having a conversation with Elgin because I think she's a dream invader. Well, I don't know what she is, but we have a kimono lady coming through. Now, there's a theory I don't like about her. And a theory I like a lot. Well, there's the main theory, right, which is a lot of people have put together that she looks like Fatima to Fatima. Yeah. And there's also a theory that Fatima that Elgin is Fatima's child. Right. Which no, however, not not to me. I don't like that idea. I don't like that either. I don't think it works. Because if he was coming from the future, why would Marielle be there on that same bus? And she hasn't aged inappropriate. She's not different at all. Right. And she said something like you've been missing for a year to Christie. Yes. Yes. So she hasn't that's why that theory doesn't work for me. What does work for me is that this is a protective figure, not a malign figure. Why do I say that? When she holds him underwater, it's maybe so that he doesn't get trapped by the music box. This was a great point for you. Yeah, I hadn't thought about it that way, which I don't know why maybe the scene was too upsetting at the time. But yeah, it's the music's going off. And that's when she comes in and pushes him underwater. So I think you have something there with she doesn't want him to hear the music because he would have ended up in the dungeon. One small point of order on on Cooley. Yes. Now, I don't know what they're saying. I don't. It's been suggested that it means that it's a first nation word for trees. Yes. I'm not saying that's not it. I did find the word A N K U I, which is a Cantonese word for hidden loss. Oh, and I found that to be way more compelling than tree. They're saying trees over and over again. Well, because the trees, what does that what does that mean? I know the trees are a character of sorts. We know the trees are moving. We know that different areas. Well, that it's that that the trees are the or that one tree is a portal to the tower would be the explanation for that. But I bit it's a bit small if they're just saying tree. I say Mandarin or Cantonese. You said Cantonese. Okay, I might have meant Mandarin. I'm sorry if I got that wrong. But I remember saying last night, well, they speak Cantonese on the show. Yes. So why would they have a Mandarin word that corresponded to anything. But then when I was doing my research, I found that there might have been early Chinese explorers who interacted with indigenous people in Newfoundland. And that could have, you know, look, if you go back that far, you got the burying land straight, burying straight, you know, which was walkable back then. So it is conceivable that people would have made it from China to Eastern Canada over a long period of time. Yeah, or they could sail there. I mean, it's it's all very interesting. And and it does bring me to a point that we can't ignore in a series by the same showrunners as lost. Oh, I don't know what you're going to say. Let's see what you say. Well, what is the what's the what is the tie that binds? What do they all have in common? What do they all have in common? What is everyone who's in from have in common? Yeah, tell me. Oh, I don't know. Oh, you're just I'm saying that's the thing. Yes. Is there is there a through line to anything like like when Jim Tabitha, Julie and Ethan end up there, that's like, you know, post terrible loss of a child and a potential divorce coming up. Do you think like turmoil? That's a shitty thing to do, by the way. What's that? Like do a like one last trip as a family? Like just get divorced. Well, why? Because it's so depressing that you're going on this forced last RV trip. Well, that's going to color the children's memories for like decades to come. Oh, you're looking at the the impact on Julie and Ethan. Yes. Why would you do that to your children? It's a good point. I think I think they're still fucking, by the way, through the whole thing. Tabitha and Jim. Yeah, definitely. Are they is it like is it sad or is it like mechanical? What is it? I think they're very attracted to each other. I've seen them be tender with each other and they look good together. I they do. And I think when you're in a situation like this, you can't tell me that people aren't swapping and swinging at Colony House. I'm just saying it's really funny. The sexual energy is palpable. They showed it a little bit in season one, but like we've really moved away and I get it. It's been scary, but like you're going to tell me that at night, those like dirty hippies in Colony House are not like, well, I mean, the monsters are outside. They're not inside. I'm just saying there's a reason that guy Kevin like had a crush on the monster and it's because nobody else would touch him. He wouldn't touch his one-eyed monster. Exactly. And he was done to death with hearing moans and groans and squeaky mattresses all around the night. So the the siren song of a horrifying monster in the form of a pretty girl from the 1950s. Yeah. There's a little too much for him. Yeah, I think so. Before we get on to the weird log cabin village. My theory. No, let's go over to the weird log cabin village. I got to say, okay, in a show that is full of upsetting things. Guys, these fucking statues, they're twig creations or corn husk dolls or they're not corn husk dolls. I know, but I was watching their sculptures, but they are terrifying. They were incredibly off-putting. There was the now we saw there's the one they each had like different horrible things done to them. One of them had nails driven into their head, which, you know, could be reminiscent. We do have that incident in last season when that one girl is, you know, nail-gunned in the head it looks like and forced to watch her lover get murdered, I believe, before she goes. So there is some precedent. It made me think of Hellraiser, personally. Yeah, I don't, I think that was decorative. It didn't feel like that was showing some kind of punishment. I don't think it was connected. But I did think about, um, did you read Cormac McCarthy's The Road or see the film? So you know how the cannibals would put up like skulls? Yes. So to kind of mark themselves. Oh, so you think this, this could have been like more of like, Hey, FYI, we eat people over here? I don't know, but it came into my brain case and stayed there and rattled around because we see the sort of pioneer man drinking from a skull. Yes, yes. So I thought cannibalism is definitely going to come into play at some point. It made me think seeing that guy who looks like some sort of like trapper or something like a, you know, 18th century guy or something like maybe even, yeah, no 18th century. Oh, in the drawing? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no. This guy was drinking out of the sky. Oh, okay. Because I guess there may be 19th century because I guess it's it was he it's hard to tell. We don't know if it's civil war era or like 15 hundreds. It could be earlier. It could be later. Yes, yes, yes. But wait, what was I just going to say? I just lost my thought. What was I going to say? Cannibalism, pioneer guy, civil war guy. It made me think of one of my favorite stories of horror, which is the Donner party, which is, of course, people who were traveling west in the 1800s. They took a bad shortcut and they ended up needing being forced to resort to cannabis. That's so interesting. I wonder how many people were traveling west during like when they got when they saw the tree. Oh, that's that's interesting. And in fact, we can probably do a little research ourselves because we do have the map in Boyd's home and the sheriff's station that has pins of where everybody came from. That's right. So would be curious to see that. And what I was going to say was, wait, you just reminded me of it. And then I lost it again. While you're thinking about that, this is the realest thing that has ever happened on the show, which is last season, Jim has a conversation that we all see in here with Tableau, Tableau, Tableau Rosa with Tabitha. And she says, which is the title of an episode of loss. Yes, it is. I'm not, by the way, everyone, I dipped out of lost relatively early on, I think probably season four. And I remember very little of it. So I started everyone, I watched lost all the way through love it, loved the ending, big fan and enjoyed the whole show, strike related issues on that show, notwithstanding. Anyway, we saw it happen. Tabitha said, look, watch these kids. If I don't come back, you're all they have. So like, please take extra special good care of yourself. Take extra special good care of yourself. Don't do anything stupid. I'm paraphrasing, of course. Don't be a fucking moron. Jim heard nothing. What did Jim hear? Jim heard, boop, boop, boop, boop. Like most spouses here. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Interestingly enough, a scientific study revealed that the longer domestic partners are together, the less they can hear each other's voices, volume wise, and making out the words that they're saying wise. So that makes a lot of sense. That's how we put up with each other in life. That's right. It bothered me that he was like, oh, hey, maybe she wouldn't want me to do this. You talk about when he's in the cabin of Kenny, and Kenny sort of looks like, he looks like the audience surrogate there, because it looks like Kenny's like, and circle gets the square. Yeah, Jim, that's right. I'm really glad that you pointed it out after we made it to the creepy village. Yeah, remember, like, remember how Boyd told you that exact same thing, and then I also told you that exact same thing, and your wife told you that exact same thing. It's really nice that you're hearing it now, and now the white guy is announcing it to everyone. It's really nice. It's finally reached. Pardon me. White man speaking. Right. Exactly. It's ridiculous. Maybe that's why people don't like him. I think he comes off a little like smarmy to some people. Why? Because he's hot. He's good looking. Well, you did point out, oh, that was funny too though, because he's got the hair growing out. They do a great job. It's really funny. Jim and I have the same hair. They do a great job of kind of like roughing up some of the characters who, you know, looking a little worse for wear. In the beginning, Jim's hair is really fucked up. They have one of my guys, I just have to say, because I meant to say this earlier, I love Harold Perinot a lot. As I said, I'm from New York. Harold Perinot is in a stage actor. He was on Oz. He was on Tons of Things is from New York. I used to see him all the time on the Upper West Side of Manhattan. Let's just say I was doing outdoor teenage activities. I would say things like, "Hey, Harold!" He would always wave and smile. I have had a conversation with him. I hope to have another. I love him so much. I was saying they roughed him up a little bit. It was later when Jim goes home before he goes out again. His hair is completely different. I was like, "Where did he find some product?" Your line was, "No, no, he didn't find some product. He found all of the product and has put all of it into his hair." Yeah, it was too much. I have been there. I'm not going to harp on it. It just is always funny on a show like this, where time is standing still, but there has been in real life a season in between. People surprise, surprise, lose weight, gain weight, get haircuts, grow their hair out. Oh, Jade is the other one who they... We haven't gotten to Jade yet, which we'll get to in a moment, but Jade really is... He looks like he's coming off a bender. Yeah, he looks rough. I think Jade's a fantastic actor, though. I really enjoy that character, and I think that his intelligence and ideas bring a lot to the table. He was so annoying in the beginning, and now I'm very attracted to him, probably because he's an alcoholic ruminator. Yeah, gang, I don't know. You tell me what that says about Michelle. Not into him as the Zion Tech Wiz. That means it's his family's money. Well, let's go with that. That works. I was just pulling a word. I think you used a word without knowing what it meant, helping that other people. I think I definitely did, and I think it would have gone, of course. All right. Okay, on to the... So we're still in the log cabin. No, I thought... Yeah, I'm done. Yeah, I just... Do you agree that these cabins look much more like 1800s to me? I don't think these look like 1500s cabins. I can't speak to cabin-building technology. This is solely based on my knowledge of going to historic sites in the Northeast growing up, but it does... Can I tell you a story? Please do. It's what this show's all about. In my art history class, and I went to community college for a period of time before I was put on... Yes, you can be put on academic probation at community college. I'm a very intelligent gal, but my executive skills could use some work. Anyway, especially back then. In my art history class, we were presented with photos of Roman temples, and when the teacher asked what they had in common, a student raised his hand and said, "They ain't got rubs," meaning there were no rubes. So, Jack, I have to ask a question here. Please do. Do you think they don't... Do you think that when you see ancient ruins, do you think that they didn't have rubs? No, I think... I mean, come on. So, are you judging the structures based on the fact? If they have rubes or not? Yeah. No. That's ridiculous, because also, if you think about it, who knows in this time frame where these things are from, if you can put all sorts of things on rubes. I'm just saying, I've watched last of the Mohicans many times. Like any nice girl who grew up in the 90s? Yeah. And was it because of Daniel Day-Luth? Oh, no. And I saw it too. Was it because of Madeleine Stowe? Shelters were pretty advanced at that point, and that was like, what? Was that later than I think it is? No, it would have been... Pre-revolutionary war? Yes. Yes. Yes, yes, because it's all... Yeah. So, I'm saying, I don't think these are civil war era. I think they look... What I was saying was, I thought they looked more like... It's not so much the time frame. It's who would have built cabins like this. Short people? They're very close to the ground. I was going to say that it looks more like trapper cabins, like something like seasonal. Seasonal. Like lean too. But also, yes, but also more in like the French-Canadian trapper kind of thing, which is kind of like quick correction of huts to get them up. And I think that's why they're so low, because I think it was really just for like heat and protection. But the roof thing that you said is just really funny, because it's like people have created like covering for themselves since the dawn of time, when your roof was a cave ceiling. Now, this is an excellent transition to what I'm talking about. So, I have done a ton of research, and before you fall asleep preemptively, I promise this all comes back to the show, and I'm going to try to be as brief as humanly possible. And we are going to be as great as we can about putting all of these time codes and links in our notes. Yes. So again, thank you to the folks of Reddit for identifying the, again, doing my best. It's spelled B-E-O-T-H-U-K. I believe it's BeaTuck or BeaThuck. I think it's BeaThuck or BeaThuck or something like that. So, I'm just going to say BeaThuck. Go for it. Okay. If you know better, again, as always, let us know. So, the BeaThuck people lived in mamatiques, which are like little tents, made of wooden poles tied together at the top and covered in birch bark. So, even though we've seen that symbol and we've seen sorry, my brain jade looking up at that symbol and seeing that it's a bunch of trees together, I just thought that's a similar view would be looking up in a tent and seeing the circle, and the sticks covering it. Now, what you're referring to in jade sees it as when he's transported to that horror cavern with the uncouy children on the slabs. Sorry, the tower. When he looks up, it is like a bit of like, it's not like a weird sculpture. It's clear that it's like thatched. It's like a top of a roof. It's a point. And, you know, obviously, in that culture, you know, you would have to build fires inside. So, there's an opening. Yeah, you have to have an opening. It can have an indoor fire. But I think you have a really good point. It does look traditional, like if you were laying on your back looking up. Another thing that grabbed me is the basic people had very elaborate burials. So, some more shallow graves were marked with rock piles, similar to the ones that we've already seen on the show. Others were placed in coffin-like boxes with their knees bent up. That sounds horrible, but yeah. Well, if you're dead, maybe you don't mind so much. Well, it's interesting. It suggests that maybe there's a different, you know, when the soul leaves the body, maybe the body is nothing at that point, because it's about the soul, not the body. Yeah. Now, other bodies were laid out on scaffolds, similar to the slabs that the children in the tower are- And by scaffold, you do mean, because I said growing up in New York, I only know that word from scaffolding, which would be elevated- It's just, I think they meant an elevated platform. And I'll cite my sources in the show notes for those of you who are interested in. So, I thought there's that connection. The burial thing, graves were adorned with figurines, replica tools, and pendants. And I thought, okay, is that the talisman? Because the talisman be something. Much of what we know about the basic people comes from a woman called, again, please forgive me, I'm trying my best. Shana, what did it? She was found, and I'm putting that in air quotes because- Come on. This is a whitewashed narrative, I think. Literally. By a trapper, along with her mother and sister, who both sadly died of tuberculosis after reaching St. John's, which was like the main settlement in that area of Canada. That's the capital city of Newfoundland today. Yes, there you go. I'm going to call her Shana. So, Shana was a domestic worker until the explorer, William Cormack, brought her to the basic institute. She taught him the language. I've dug up some of her drawings. And I'll maybe put that on our website at some point. So, she taught him the language. She made, I think, a series of 10 different drawings where she was able to- they had a very high literacy rate. Now, we'll get to that in a moment. Sadly, she also died of tuberculosis in 1829, and she was thought to be the last quote-unquote "full-blooded" "bathic" woman in existence. Any questions so far? No, no, no. I mean, we talked about all of this, and I just think it's a really interesting thing that you stumbled across, because there's so much in the drawings that you found, which we will put a link to, that looks like it's like from the set designers. Yeah, exactly. So, Shana described three distinct figures in the basic mythology. Yes. One is the great spirit. One is a powerful monster from the sea, who could be a dragon, just saying. The third is the black man or the man in black. Now, it's a little confusing in that wording. We don't know if it's a black man or a man in black. It's kind of... I think you could go either way with that, but in the drawing, he is a white man, or possibly Asian man, dressed in all black. Yes. And it says on the drawing, seen at the Great Lake, the black man or red Indians devil, short and very thick, he dresses in beaver skin, has a large beard. To me, that sounds like a French Canadian trapper, again, which is why I keep going to that, but do you get that vibe from that? Because who else would be running around with a big beard, a white guy with health? Well, we've debated on this drawing, whether he... I mean, I guess he is. This is kind of pilgrim-like dress. Yes. So, I get that. It also happens to look like he has giant, pendulous breath. And we joked that maybe she tried to draw an arm twice and, like, couldn't get the hand. We're not laughing at her. We're trying to break up some of this horror that we're confronted with. Yes. Now, this is the key part of... I have a question. I want to come back to black man thing, but go ahead. Okay. This is the key part of my theory. So, Shanna told Cormac that the first white people to arrive in Newfoundland were from the good spirit, while later explorers, so the French, English, as well as the Mic Mac people, were from the bad spirit. And Mic Mac is another tribe, correct? Yes. They are closer to Inuit peoples. More Native Canadians. So, he would apologize if that's incorrect. No. So, it's difficult to... So, genetically, the basic people... It sounds like I'm saying basic with a list. It does. Supposedly, genetically, the basic people are a mix of Indigenous peoples of North America or Native persons of North America or First Nation. If you are First Nation and there's a word that you'd prefer we use, please tell us, we're here to learn. And I'm more than happy to be corrected. As am I. So, it's a mix between that of Viking people. So, early Scandinavian people, Norse people, if you like. Going back to when people may have first found North America in history. I mean, as the Vikings are thought to have gotten to at least to Canada. The first, let's say, European people to arrive there. We don't want to say discovered because it's already there. Sorry. I did. Yes. No, I know. But, you know, we're undoing... Well, you went to a fancy private school. I can't say that, but for myself. But this is what we're trying to... We're trying to do a lot of internal correction and redirection when we speak because, obviously, we were taught one version of history that we now know not to be true. Anyway, a religious principle, that's her word not mine, demanded that the batheic who made peace with white colonists or mikmak were to be sacrificed to the spirit of their slain brethren. This is where it comes back to fromville. Tie it together, sister. Okay. I think the monsters are all people who were sacrificed because they tried to make peace with the spirits of the forest. So this probably not the first, but the people around who all disappeared in 1978 or whenever it was... You're talking about when a victor's mother... Yes. Okay, yes. So all of those people who were sacrificed, either they tried to connect with and communicate with the spirit somehow, and so they all turned into monsters, or it's expected that the people of fromville are going to be slain because they're trying to communicate with the forest, and these are their ancestors, so to speak. Okay. I love the theory, but I have a question. Please. Why are they all white and why do they all sort of look like they're from like segregated, like early 50s America? Well, I think you answered your own question there with why are they all white? So they're all white based on the fact that they give it to me. How did I answer my own question? Because you said segregated. Oh, so you think that... Okay, so you're saying this is like they're a segregated population, the monsters? Yeah, originally. I think they got their... They're not the first people, but they're maybe people who... Are these outward 50s looks? Are they just costumes? Are you saying like they could pick up any costumes? No, no, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying the people who were maybe the people who were wiped out in 1978 originally got there in the 60s, 50s. This is who they were. This is how they dressed in the same way that we have like people in the town and whatever wearing contemporary clothes. So if they feel vaguely racist, maybe it's because they are vaguely racist. I'm sure they are. Well, it just... It stood out to me because I'll come back to this now because just black man or man in black or whatever. Right. Come on, we got a thing where a bunch of white monsters dressed in 50s clothes are like really looking to torture a black man who's in charge of keeping the town safe. Obviously, we're talking about Boyd. And it became... This really jumped out at me as like a malevolent like fuck with you Boyd force when not just obviously it's horrific at that last scene that they might come watch what happens to Tian Chen. But that weird cowboy monster who tells Boyd, "I heard what she said and you think this ain't gonna break you something, we're gonna break it." Like that whole thing? Yeah. It felt so fucking creepy racist like... It did feel like racially fake. When they're dragging them with handcuffs to go. And then even in that, and I just... We're running long here so I just want to cover a couple of things. I don't know and listeners please let me know if I somehow miss something. I know that we obviously we know that that Boyd was infected with the worm parasites from Martin and it was in the dungeon. And we know that that was able to kill Smiley the monster. And we know that whatever was going on with the worm blood he was able to give the transfusion to Ellis when Ellis needed a transfusion. What I'm confused about is did he use up the worms? Does he have antibodies? Because that's like where my mind goes medically. Because why are they so hell bent on I got a... We got to torture this guy and make him watch horrible things. And let's specifically just slash him where he just got shot with a shotgun. Nowhere else and let's make him watch but we're not gonna kill him. Why aren't they gonna kill him? I don't know. And that's obviously a mystery right now but it's just interesting to me and I'm just throwing it out there like can they not kill him because he's like poisonous to them? I'm not sure. But I think that it suggests that Boyd's connection to fromville and everything going on and end the spirits and everything. I think it may be very strong. I mean it is very strong. They're making an example out of him and I don't know to what end at this point. You have any follow-ups on that? No, I think you've put that rather well. If you don't mind. Yes, ma'am. I just want to tie up these two last-class connections. Let's do it. So once again, Demis Stewart was Shana's ancestor. I believe it was her great aunt. She was captured following an attack by British colonizers in the winter of 1819. Her husband was murdered and she begged to be spared to care for her child. She actually exposed her breasts to the colonizers to demonstrate that she was breastfeeding this child. Unfortunately, she was still captured and taken against her will to St. John's. The governor there, the Canadian governor, demanded that she be returned to her people, but she died on the way home. What made me think of this was the accused witch had a similar story. She also begged to be reunited with her child. She had a lost child. The one that is supposedly playing this card game with the devil, the accused witch. It also ties to maybe the voice that Kenny's dad hears in the beginning. I want to see my son. Now that was really interesting when you mentioned that to me because I remember because I just rewatched a couple of weeks ago and I remember in that scene, it just felt like, oh, that's sad. This guy has Alzheimer's. He just wants to see Kenny. But now what you're saying, it does bring in like, was he talking about himself or was he repeating something he was hearing? Right. It could be either, you know, that could be a massive reach. Yeah, but this is all about theory crafting. Yes. The final thing that I want to mention is that supposedly this whole bargain with the devil thing with the accused witch came about or coincided with an Italian explorer named John Cabot. Obviously, that's his anglicized. I was just going to say John Cabot's an Italian guy. It was like Gianni. Cabotore. Cabotore. I'm part Sicilian. I'm allowed to do that. Yeah. His ship was called the Matthew and obviously we have the Matthew's family who arrive in a camper van. Yes. Yes. Boyd's Cove is a real place in Newfoundland on in sort of like the northeastern part. And that was discovered in the 80s. So that was in the 1980s, I should say. It was discovered for the first time in the 1980s. Yes, but that site is connected to John Cabot's excursion, whatever you want to call it, pillage. So it's interesting that there's those two names. And that's all I have. One more. One more because I brought this up. Oh, okay. Was just the name of the hospital where Tabitha is. Was it St. Anthony? Yes, it was. St. Anthony, I'm Jewish, but Catholic. We might need a little help on some of this. Yeah. St. Anthony is what to say, the patron saying, he's the patron saint of lost things. Yes. So that, hey, I just little on the nose, but they're doing a lot. They're doing a lot. They're doing a lot. So that pretty much wraps it up. I want to again, thank you all so much for listening. Thank you for giving us a chance. We are very new to this space. We love feedback. Email us apng@gmail.com. Let us know if you want your emails to be read on air. What? I'm sorry, apng pod at gmail.com. My my learned friend and colleague has correct me. I was mouthing it. Also, Instagram, I look for apng, all pleasure, no guilt apng pod. Yeah, at apng pod. We do mostly cover reality shows. If you want to leave us a voicemail, you can join our our patreon. You get this ad free. If you happen to be into reality shows, you can listen to the other content, but I'm going to be posting pictures of everything that I've been talking about slide shows of everything that I that I'm talking about. And once again, shout out to gifted and very insightful Reddit user, Taren, Taren, Matthew. And I just want to say as we wrap up here, again, if you haven't noticed, I've been pushing interactivity throughout the show, really want to make this an interactive space. I think it's the most fun way to kind of talk and cover about a show like this and just kind of get into it with everybody. And look, froms about community, I opened this talking about how we enjoy the thematic societal relationship elements. So I'd like to create a community for people who love the show and want to talk about it and, you know, enjoy our coverage of it and want to get back to us. And if you love us, and only if you love us, please leave a five star review. If you don't know what to say, just say love from from ville. Yes. That's it. That would be fantastic. Anything less than that, go about your day. You can, we are always open to feedback. I'm Michelle Snark on Facebook. You can DM me. Yeah. I'm Jack on Facebook too. We have a Facebook group, which you can find. I'll pleasure no guilt. Again, it's going to be mostly reality stuff. But if we get enough from ville people in there, we'll make a little separate area. Yeah, we'll make you a whole different group. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. So we're looking to grow at everybody. We are super excited. I am very excited to see the next scene on this show because that last scene stuck with me. Yes, it did. So looking forward to picking it up from from there. And we will be back this time next week. And we can't wait to unravel what's going on and from with all of you. We love you. That's it. [Music]