Indonesia was asked to be part of the peace process in Afghanistan. The situation changed after Taliban came into Kabul, but we never withdraw our involvement or our engagement. So that's why now we are in a close contact with the de facto authority, not necessarily recognize them, because listening, engaging is very important in mediation. Welcome to the Mediator Studio, a podcast about peacemakers, bringing you stories from behind the scenes. I'm your host, Adam Cooper. I'm at the Oslo Forum, which started out as a small gathering in 2003, and is now entering its third decade, bringing together some of the world's leading figures in peacemaking. Participants from around the world are here to discuss the major conflicts of our day, from Gaza to Myanmar, Sudan, Afghanistan, and Ukraine. My guest today has for the last 10 years served as the Forum Minister of Indonesia. A career diplomat, she has held ambassadorial posts of the Netherlands to Norway and to Iceland. Her ministerial tenure has seen growing tensions in the South China Sea, a deepening crisis in Myanmar, and one of the most destructive wars in the Middle East has ever seen. Your excellency, Retno Marsoudi, welcome to the Mediator Studio. Thank you. Thank you very much for having me. It's wonderful to have you here. Allow me to begin with your formative years and to give our listeners a sense of view and your values. The eldest of five children, you were born in the 60s to parents who worked in education and you graduate from the University in Dr. Carter majoring in international relations. What was it about your upbringing that made you interested in foreign relations? First of all, congratulations for the Oslo Forum, the 21st year of the Oslo Forum and I'm always glad to be back to Oslo. I'm coming from a very modest family, but my family always put education as priority. And then every day I watch TV, I watch how diplomat works, and at that time it started in my mind to be a diplomat. So that is actually the first thing that I started to build my dream, to be a diplomat. So that's why when I was graduated from the high school, I immediately registered in the Kajamaada University at the international relation because to be a diplomat, we have a big networking, traveling part is good, but sometimes very challenging as well, but an open-minded. I mean, if you are a diplomat, it means that you have to have an open-minded perspective. And by being a carrier diplomat, I have a lot of friends around the world. So it's very simple reason because I want to have friends as many as possible, but at the same time I want to contribute, especially now. I mean, there are so many conflict and I want to contribute to bring peace in this world. And you've become a real champion for women's involvement in peace and security. In your own career, did you face challenges in rising up to hold the position you now have as foreign minister? You know, I'm the first female foreign ministers in Indonesia, the largest Muslim country in the world. The question is sometimes came to me, is do you feel any difficulty being the first female foreign minister in the largest Muslim country? And I said, no, because you know, the surrounding the environment, the working environment, the family, they are all supported me to be what I want to be. And there is my commitment at the ministry to build a good environment for women to work. So that's why Indonesia is one of the country who is on the forefront when it comes to the issue of women, peace and security. We want to see more women to be a mediator and a negotiator. So that's why I think it's about four years ago, I initiated to establish such East Asia, women negotiators and mediators. Well, you've been a real leading figure in inspiration in that regard, but I'd like to move to the present and to the conflict that's been on our televisions on an almost daily basis, Gaza. First of all, take us to the 7th of October last year and the attack on southern Israel. Where were you when you heard the news and what were your first thoughts? I was in Jakarta, so of course every each of us was shocked. I said that the 10s will be increasing and immediately I talked with my team, please look at the situation closely. You knew we would have major consequences. And look what Indonesia can do, because we know that the 7th of October event did not come at the Fakkum situation. We talk about justice, we talk about the basic rights of the Palestine, which has been neglected for 70 years. So that's why when we want to address the Palestinian issue, we have to address the root cases of the issue, that is the independence of Palestine. So that's why I mentioned in the forum that I appreciate it very much, the way that Norway has been an island, recognize the state of Palestine. This is very important for the people of Palestine. And we'll talk about some of those root causes and how they can be addressed in a minute, that you use the phrase "what Indonesia can do" and I want to ask about that. You know, there's intense diplomacy on the situation in Gaza at the moment. How do you see the challenge for Indonesia specifically as a mid-sized power to find a space to make a difference on the world's most thorny conflict? Well, of course, Indonesia does not involve directly in the mediation itself. We know the US, Qatar, Egypt, the neighboring countries are more involved on the mediation itself. But it doesn't mean that we can sit back and relax. This building is very important and that is where Indonesia wants to contribute. For example, I mentioned in the forum, what about the humanitarian assistance? After all, when we talk about people, we should put this in our priority of attention. So, unhindered humanitarian assistance is very important and Indonesia did whatever we can to assist to help the Palestinian people on the humanitarian needs. And then, number two, supporting Palestinian to build their statehood. Recognition is very important. The membership in the UN is also very important. And Indonesia is one of the countries that becomes member of the OIC contact group. So, I travel to many countries to convince them, to lobby them, to recognize Palestine. Because recognition for Palestine, the state of Palestine, is very important. So, that's why we will do whatever we can to help the Palestinian and to solve the issue itself, the root causes. Because we thought the independence of Palestine, I don't think that stability will materialize in the Middle East. You've talked about humanitarian assistance and you've talked about the sort of recognition for Palestinian statehood. What about the long-term solutions that are necessary for peace? You know, many people are pessimistic about the prospects for peace. Do you see your workers laying the foundation for something which might seem unlikely now, but is necessary preparation for a future peace process? It's very interesting, I want to share you about the meeting that have been taken place in Brazil, where the foreign minister of Norway and I myself were there. That is actually the meeting between the OIC contact group with the EU plus other European countries. And one of the topics of discussion is about the implementation of two-state solution. Plus, of course, the humanitarian recognition. So, let me focus on the implementation of the two-state solution. You ask about what will be the long-term solution. The long-term solution is peace and two-state solution. Because it's very unfortunate that one side started to mention no more two-state solution. What does it mean? And where the Palestinians should go? So that's why we have to be very firm when we said that two-state solution is the only feasible solution. Where the two countries live side-by-side in peace? You mentioned humanitarian assistance, Indonesian organisations built a hospital in Gaza, which Indonesians also funded and which was inaugurated nearly ten years ago. But early in the current conflict, the Israeli army reportedly surrounded it and turned it into a military base. What state is the hospital in now? It's not in function to the max-step the hospital was in the past because it was a tag in November. And we communicated with Egypt and others that basically Indonesia is ready to contribute a floating hospital to help the people of Gaza. And now the government also decided to bring and treat passion from Gaza. Of course, the nitty-gritty, the details is very complicated, but let us see the idea. The idea is we are ready to help the people of Gaza to treat them. So basically, we want to help. Last question on Gaza, perhaps, the US doesn't support currently your vision of recognising Palestinian statehood. What are you doing about that specifically? I will keep talking with the US and other countries who do not recognise Palestine because I think that is the best time, the best way to do if we really want to see the two-state solution materialised. Let's move to Afghanistan, a country which I know has been firmly on your radar. Could you tell us about your first visit to Afghanistan and also the first time you started to engage with the Taliban specifically? My first visit to Kabul, I think that was in 2017 because Indonesia was asked to be part of the peace process in Afghanistan. But the situation changed after Taliban came into Kabul, but we never withdraw our involvement or our engagement with the Afghan issue. So that's why now we are in the close contact with the defacto authority, not necessarily recognise them, but we are in the contact because listening, engaging is very important in mediation, and that is what Indonesia does. And tell me what you think that engagement with the defacto authorities the Taliban can practically achieve? Because we know them even during the previous government in Afghanistan, so I know them years ago. Can you have a personal relationship with some of them? Yeah, I have a personal communication with them and last year when I was here in Oslo, I met them and we discussed about what can Indonesia do for the people. And one of the result of the discussion last year is on the need of Afghanistan to have the folio vaccine, because Afghanistan is one of the two countries that still encounter endemic folio. And Indonesia already sent 10 million doses folio vaccine, it's done. And now we are on the states of preparing the compare notes on the Madrasa curricula. This is to address the issue of women and education. Which is the issue which has been very controversial and difficult to work on. Yes, it is difficult and Indonesia would like to try again and again. Yeah, and so how do you advocate for girls rights and education vis-a-vis the Taliban? It's very important. So in every communication I always mention about how important to give the equal rights of women to education and also to other activities, social working activities. I said that, look, I'm a Muslim and I'm coming from the largest Muslim population. So when we talk about the women's rights, equal rights of women to education, it is not an issue of Western countries, but it is our issue, the human being issue. And tell Indonesia, tell me what we can do. Because you know, of course, there is some issues related to their tradition and others, but it doesn't mean that they have to deny the rights of women to education. So I'm still on the process of communicating with them, but the message is very consistent, equal rights for women to education. Let's talk about Myanmar. At the time of the coup in 2021, you already had a lot of diplomatic experience in the country, trying to help with the democratic transition, also advocating on behalf of the Rohingya population. How do you draw on the relationships you developed before the coup in the diplomacy that Indonesia undertook during its chairmanship of ASEAN last year? Before the coup, Myanmar was a democratic country, and it is very much their effort to bring Myanmar to be a democratic country, so they enjoy democracy in the last five years. Then the coup happened. And then, of course, as the ASEAN family, it was the initiative of my president to bring the family in one table and discuss what the ASEAN can help. So that's why the extraordinary summit was taken place in Jakarta, and then Indonesia initiated and agreed by all ASEAN, of course, on the five point of consensus. With the presence of the military junta, it means that the junta also agree with the five point of consensus. The five point consensus minister has been quite hard to implement in practice. Do you feel that ASEAN's credibility as a conflict resolution body is on the line? No, because there is some pressure for ASEAN to leave the five point of consensus, and even some said that why we shouldn't bring the junta back to the ASEAN meeting. They said that there's nothing wrong with the five point of consensus. We want to help them. But again, it's up to them, because that is their issue. They have to solve their problem. What the ASEAN can do is to facilitate their communication. So that's why under the Indonesian chairmanship, we had more than 200 engagement. We talked to every each of them. And the question, number one question, is, are you willing to talk to each other? One of the big questions is the willingness of a different stakeholders in Myanmar to talk between themselves and engagement with the imprisoned state councilor on San Suu Kyi. Where do you stand on that question? Look, any engagement with any stakeholders, of course, do An Suu Kyi is a very prominent figure in Myanmar. It's good, but nevertheless, we have to engage other. Because Myanmar is a very fragmented country, and it's very difficult to make them to talk to each other. Can you imagine if in a country we know there are so many stakeholders, and every each of them, they don't talk to each other? So building the statehood of Myanmar is very important, and this is what ASEAN would like to help. We don't want to intervene, because non-intervention is the principle of ASEAN, but as a family, we want to help Myanmar to solve their problem, to solve their crisis. Because if the crisis continues, it will affect the neighborhood, it will affect the Southeast Asia, and it will not be good for everybody. Let's end with a few reflections on your career. You're coming to your final months as Foreign Minister, and you've probably played a more active role, trying to resolve conflict than any of your predecessors. What do you think your legacy will be? As Indonesian, if people ask me about what is your legacy, I said, "I don't know. The number of conflicts is not declining, but increasing. The complexity of the conflict is much more compared to years ago." So every country has to be responsible to contribute, to resolve the conflict, to the peace building, and Indonesia, I think we are more than ready to contribute. You travel around the world engaging with many governments, part of diplomacy is sharing your ideas while your interlocutor disagrees with you. But when lives are on the line, and you see a government that clearly does not have peace as an objective, how do you personally deal with the frustration of your advice maybe not being heated? I'm lucky because I'm a woman. So I try to use my communication, especially the personal communication. I try to build as strong as possible the personal communication. Of course, the issue of Myanmar, for example, after working hard for one year, we are not able to bring them together at one table. You will feel frustrated, right? But for us, okay, because we understand that to reach a peace, it takes a long time. But we never give up, because we want to talk to them again and again. And I think we want to see that more women should play a big role on the mediation, on the negotiation. And I want to close this interview by asking you a final question inspired by that. When I spoke with one of my young colleagues from Southeast Asia, she heard that I'd be interviewing you. She was extremely excited. And she said, "You have to ask her about women in politics." And she was concerned that it was still very male dominated in the region. My question is, what advice and encouragement would you give to young women who aspire to a career in diplomacy or peacemaking, but feel discouraged by sexism? And what would you say to the men who uphold that patriarchal system? For the women, I always mention, never give up. Choose your dream, materialize your dream. Of course, it needs a hard working, but it will be worth it to work hard to choose your dream and never give up. And for a man, give us equal opportunity. Is that what you've told kind of chauvinistic leaders who've challenged you? You've got to make space, you've got to listen to that. So, let us be a good partner, male and female. Well, on that note, we must close your excellency, Retnomah Sooty. Thank you so much for being my guest in the mediator studio. Thank you very much. Thank you. And there we end this edition of the mediator studio. To get more episodes as they come out, please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We always love to hear from you, so if Retnomah Sooty's career in diplomacy has inspired any thoughts or questions, please get in touch via the Listener survey in the show notes on our website. Or do drop me a message on Twitter at Adam Talks Peace. The mediator studio is an Oslo Forum podcast brought to you by the Center for Humanitarian Dialogue and the Norwegian Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Our managing editor is Christina Buchhold, and the producer is Chris Gunness. Research for this episode was by Oscar Eshamprena. Big thanks also to Lee Boydong and Giles Pitts for their support. I hope you'll join me for the next edition. Until then, from Las Vegas in Norway, this is Adam Cooper saying goodbye and thanks for listening. [MUSIC PLAYING] (gentle music) You
