(upbeat music) - Hello everyone. Today I'll be chatting with Ellen Bratton, PhD. Ellen is an experienced and prominent psychologist, researcher, speaker, and author. At Massachusetts General Hospital, where Dr. Bratton has been affiliated since 1998, she is the Executive Director of the Learning and Emotional Assessment Program, and the Kessler Family Chair in Pediatric Neuropsychological Assessment. She also holds an appointment of Associate Professor at Harvard Medical School. In the past, Dr. Bratton served as an Associate Director of the MGH Clay Center for Young Healthy Minds and the Track Director of the Child Psychology Training Program at MGH Harvard Medical School. You will find links to resources and links to the books Ellen has written within the show notes. In today's episode, we talk about why children might struggle in school, how to keep kids motivated, how public education could help cater to all the ways of learning, and much more. Let's dive in. Just a little disclaimer before we start this episode, this podcast does not provide medical advice. The information on this podcast is for informational purposes only. No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. One more note before we start. If you are feeling overwhelmed by the constant scroll on social media and want a place where you can consume curated motherhood content at your own pace, join us over at Badass matriarch on Substack, a place where you can slow down, connect, and get the inspiration you need without the wasted time. Link is in the show notes. See you there. All right, everybody, welcome to the podcast. Today we have Ellen Bratton. Welcome here, Ellen. Thanks for having me. I am so excited for our conversation today, because I know that there's probably so many parents out there that will find this information to be incredibly helpful for them, including us. So I'm excited to talk to you about this. Why don't we start off with just talking to you about what your inspiration was behind your books, Bright Kids Who Couldn't Care Less, and Bright Kids Who Can't Keep Up? - So great question. I became interested in kids with slow processing speed, which is the focus of the first book that you mentioned, Bright Kids Who Can't Keep Up. And I published that quite a while ago, almost seven years ago. And I became interested in kids who took longer to do things, in part because a lot of my clinical practice as a psychologist and even my research was on ADHD. And we sort of thought that maybe a lot of kids who were slow to get things done were just inattentive. And so I found out in researching this topic that that's not necessarily the case. And so from that book, I saw a lot of kids with slow processing speed and a lot of them struggle as they grew into young adulthood and adolescence with motivation. And I thought that maybe I was seeing this, this sort of, I don't know, slim margin of kids who were struggling because they had maybe ADHD or slow processing speed, they were struggling with motivation. But as I started to study that, I realized that it was a much more diverse group of kids that a lot of kids these days are struggling with motivation. Some have learning differences and some do not. And it's a function of our culture and the fast paced world in which we live. There's sort of a long road to get here, but it's a combination of factors. - Yeah, what as parents can we be looking out for in our own kids when it comes to, you know, say like slower processing speeds and things like that? What are we looking at within our own kids to help us recognize that this might be an issue for our own kids? - So in the case of slow processing speed, it's sort of kind of what you would think it would be in that your child just takes longer to do things. So longer to do simple things, like make up their mind as to what they want for breakfast or finish their homework in time. It's usually kind of a chronic sort of issue that is beyond in some ways what we would see in ADHD, for example, just sort of not really attentive, but really slow to respond. And in terms of motivation, what we really wanna look for are things like initiation. Can your child get started on things? Can they persist? Is there intensity in their concentration and their stamina there? And those are the sorts of things that you tend to see in a child who's unmotivated is they lack that kind of intensity and drive, they have trouble getting started, knowing where to start, and then they don't really persist. And so they don't continue to persist even when they experience frustration or failures, which is part of everything. It's part of anything that we learn is going to include troubles with persisting and troubles with failure, but we learn how to do that. A motivated person pushes through that. Unmotivated kids don't. - Do you feel like this is something that is much more common now than it has been before or my clinical practice would say yes. That I think part of it is sort of ironic that I started to write this book on motivation. And I had the proposal in 2019 and I signed the contract for the book and right as the pandemic was happening. And so what was, I think, a growing problem before the pandemic seems to me to be almost universal. Probably 80% of the kids that I see in my practice struggle somewhat with what their parents would say a lack of motivation. They just don't care as much as they used to. They don't push themselves, they're not reaching their potential. All of those things are ways of describing motivation without using the word. - Right. And do you feel like the learning differences go hand in hand with the lower motivation levels? Or do you sometimes see that kids that you don't think have any learning differences also struggle from the same? - It's mixed. And you would think that it's kids with learning issues that struggle the most with motivation, but it really isn't. I see a lot of kids who might be even in the gifted range who struggle with motivation. For different reasons, they are over stress. They're pushed too hard. They're doing all these AP classes that they don't really care about. So it really is, it ranges. And some of the data on kids with learning differences, especially learning disabilities, when they are in college, they actually show greater persistence, greater satisfaction in college, greater ability to kind of push through. So once kids with learning differences get into college, they actually have less of an issue with motivation. And the issue is getting them to college, of course. But still, it's a mixed bag. You would think that, oh, you know, reading is hard for me. So I just don't care anymore. Whereas in some ways, kids who struggle with reading, learn to develop that muscle of motivation. Now it can work the other way too. If you have a child who has a learning disability that is undiagnosed, unrecognized, untreated, that's a whole different story. Then what can develop from that is an unmotivated kid because they haven't, they don't have the tools in order to be successful. And we all become unmotivated then. - Yeah, I love that you mentioned that kids that often have these learning disabilities when they get to college, they're actually motivated and they actually push through and they have perseverance. And I actually was talking to somebody else about this because we were talking specifically about dyslexia. And I found that to be very comforting as somebody who is a parent of somebody who has dyslexia and seeing her struggle so much on a day-to-day basis. It was like really comforting to know that this won't be forever. And yes, this is very difficult, but this is why you are so unique and why you're going to have these advantages when you're older compared to other people. We try to use that. We talk to her about her struggles, right? We're like, yes, you're struggling now, but the good thing is is that when you struggle, you actually persevere and become more resilient. And we like talk to her about these, you know, this and words that she can understand and give her examples and things like that. And she's like, oh, that's really cool, you know? And so again, like you said, to recognize, right, that they have this learning issue is definitely going to be very important because then you can A, talk to them about it and then they're not like in the clouds thinking, okay, is there something wrong with me? Like, why is everybody else able to just, I don't know, read this passage with no issue? And I'm sitting over here and I feel like it looks like it's gibberish, you know? And I think it helps a lot for them to have, to be able to name it and say, okay, I know I have this issue, but I have, you know, all of these tools at my disposal that I can use and this will, in turn, when I get older, you know, allow me to persevere through things that are tougher. - I totally agree, yeah. - Yeah, yeah, and where, you know, kids, like our oldest, you know, she just breezes through school. You know, I do worry that when things do get tough, whenever that is, it will be difficult for her because she hasn't really had to overcome any difficulties. You know, sometimes when we think about our kids suffering through something, we don't think about how actually important that can be for them in the long run, I think. - Yeah, and really what you're talking about too is self-understanding and we as a tilt-spender whole lives trying to understand ourselves better. That's, you know, we go to therapy, we go to the retreat, we go to, you know, all sorts of coaching and take all kinds of classes to help ourselves know ourselves better. And really what you're giving your child when you can label what their difference is, you're giving them words to understand themselves better and it's just a small part of who they are too. At this time, I don't know, how old is your child? - The one that struggles a little bit, she's eight. - Yeah, so she's sort of in the thick of this. I mean, this is the age that you learn to read. So it seems like it's a bigger part of her life than it will be in the future. But what she's doing now is she's definitely learning that kind of like ability to pick up and get going after a struggle and it is the kind of thing that leads to really successful young adults. I've been doing this for long enough, you know, being a psychologist for 25 years now and most of my practice now is in neuropsychology, which is diagnosing kids with learning differences and ADHD and I have to say, I've seen a generation of kids grow up in the most resilient kids that I see tend to be the ones who had dyslexia who were well treated for the dyslexia. They are all in graduate school, I'm going to medical school, it's amazing. - Yeah, it's really cool. - Yeah, I love that. So when we talk about these kids that can seem to be unmotivated as parents, what should we be doing with them? What can we be doing to, I don't know, get them to be a little bit more motivated just in life and in school and in everything else? Like how do we talk to them, what can we do? - So I think one of the things that I came up with for this book was to think about three different aspects of motivation, which is aptitude, practice and pleasure and I kind of see it as a Venn diagram. So aptitude is really what we were just talking about, which is what are your child strengths, who are they? What are they good at doing? And I think a lot of times as parents, even that part is not understood as well as it could be. We don't always know who our child is, we don't always reflect on where they were happiest if they have had some kind of testing. We don't always integrate that into our understanding of our child. And so that first part of looking at motivation and trying to get a more motivated child is to really realistically assess who your child is, what are their aptitudes and their specific strengths. And then on top of that, we wanna look at what are the sorts of things they would do if they had time to do it. So that's what I kind of call practice, that what would they do? And a lot of parents think, well, they would play video games all day. That's not necessarily the case, but we wanna think about that. What are they like doing? And then also what gives them pleasure, which is more than just what they kind of spend a lot of time doing or even are good at doing, but what actually gives them pleasure. And sometimes the things that give us pleasure aren't always the things that we're good at. So an example is that the child's a really great soccer player and their parents want them to play soccer and the child is good at it, but doesn't really get joy from that. That's one of those examples where a child is absolutely fine, but loses motivation because he's saying like, the things you're asking me to do, I don't wanna do. And oftentimes the way a child shows us that, they don't oftentimes bring it up in a discussion. And sometimes even if they do, the parent doesn't respond, they're like, well, I think you're great at soccer, you need to push through. And so the child becomes unmotivated and they just stop doing everything as their way of trying to convey to their parent what it is that they need and want. - Right. Okay, so you said aptitude, what was the second one? Practice and then pleasure. - Practice and then pleasure. Yeah, I was just making a note here. Yeah, that's, I mean, I think, I don't know about, you know, where other people might live and all of that, but I know where we live, sports are huge, you know? And I feel like they start so early on, most kids start a sport in kindergarten here, which I was like, I don't think I played, I did anything in kindergarten, like I played outside, like, I don't know. I didn't start a sport until I was in middle school, you know? And even then it was once a week you had a practice and you had a game on the weekend, you know? And our fourth grader, you know, just ended lacrosse season and it was two practices a week and one or two games on the weekend. And it seems like a lot compared to what it used to be. And again, I think it's all fine and amazing if the child is really into it, which, you know, our oldest really, really loves sports, like she just does. And our other daughter who I mentioned before doesn't, I mean, she does like soccer, but she doesn't really like anything else to strive. But just having them find the joy in what they're doing is obviously so important. And, you know, you know that when you look at your own self, like there are things that I really enjoy doing that I don't get to do very often. And then there's things that I just have to do. And if I had the choice, I would do, you know, whatever it was that brought me joy. - Yeah, no, you're right. And I think sports is a big, you know, it can be a really great motivator, but it also can be something that causes kids to not be as motivated because by the time that fourth grader is in ninth grade, they're practicing every day, it's year round, it's their joining, like club teams. And so burnout is part of that motivation factor, especially if a child is also doing a lot in other areas as well. So, you know, you just have to really know your child. Like you said, for some kids, sports is the motivation behind them doing everything. And for other kids, it's just, you know, not something that's motivating. And then you've got kids too. And I really think, you know, I don't know where, like you said, where a lot of your listeners are, but I think this is really, it cuts across cities, suburbs, small towns, big towns. - Yeah. It's such a big issue in our culture that if you're not a sport kid, you can start to not feel like you're really part of the team. - Right. - You know, excuse the bad metaphor, but it can be really tough for those kids because they don't know where they fit in. - Right. No, I think you're exactly right. And, you know, I think it, again, it's great for the kids that love it because they do. They have these built-in friends, right? That's their team. And that's honestly, my oldest, she plays sports and basically plays with the same people each season, you know? And I think that's amazing, right? It's just this immense amount of support, both in school, out of school when they're playing. And it's great. But yeah, for the kids that don't truly get into, say any sport at all, it does tend to get a little bit hard to navigate. And I think helping your child find what really makes them happy is important and that can take some time. You know, with one of our kids, we've tried quite a few things and haven't really found it yet, but they're young and they'll figure it out, you know? But sometimes you gotta really poke around and figure out what it might be that really makes them happy. And that thing, right, Ellen, changes. So I think that's something else to keep in mind because I think that can be hard too. Like you said, you know, if your child was really, really great at something and maybe they used to love it, but then I don't know, they get to high school and they're like, you know what? I wanna try this and you're like, wait, why would you just go up and just switch a sport when you've been playing this your whole, you know? So, and I think it can be hard because the parent, they think, oh my gosh, all the time and effort that I've put into this, right? Because so many parents now having their kids in sports, I mean, us included, it's like, oh my gosh, we have dedicated years to this sport. And now my child's telling me they don't wanna do it anymore. Like, you know, and so I think we take it personal. You know, we tend to take it personal. - Yeah, absolutely. We take it personally, we oftentimes have forgotten what gives us pleasure as parents. And we then really get our main source of pleasure is seeing our kids accomplish things. And so that also becomes complicated when they wanna change something when it's like, but my life is all around your sport events too. And so, but I mean, I think sports are fabulous too. I don't mean to say this, you know, make this a bad thing. But you know, just in terms of where we can see motivation going off track for kids who are really doing quite well, I've had a lot of situations where a child has had an injury who might be very good in hockey, for example, and they had a concussion and had to be out for a season or they broke their leg or something and they lost their whole peer group because that peer group was so much around that one sport. So that's, it's complicated. And you're right, it changes. And it really, you might have a very motivated child in seventh grade who might not be motivated in ninth grade for all sorts of reasons. And also the things that give us pleasure at age eight aren't the same at age 12 or at age 16. So these are things that we have to constantly be thinking about as parents and as people who work with children. You know, what does this child like to do? What kind of activities do they do without prompting? What do they like to do when they have free time? And is there anything that they could do over and over again and not get born? And it might take a lot of trial and error for some kids. Some kids, it's really easy and others, it's just more difficult. - Right. I'd love to talk to you about specifically when a child is, you know, they think they are trying their absolute hardest and yet still not meeting expectations. So for example, you know, our daughter who's struggling with reading and she's supposed to be at a specific level and she's not quite there yet. And so day to day, she will make these small progressive movements in the right direction. But yet when she looks at it from the whole perspective of, oh, well, I'm still not caught up to where, you know, some of the students are in my grade, she starts to feel really down and frustrated and all of that. And I know that that's going to be something that she struggles with, you know, throughout school as she's going through this. - Hey, everyone, Lindsey here. Do you feel constantly overwhelmed by the scroll on social media, constantly drowning in a sea of saved screenshots of things you'll never go back to, an outfit and home photos that leave you feeling, I don't know, pretty empty? Yeah, been there, done that. That's why I ditched the never-ending feed of Instagram in 2021 and created Badass Matriarch, a sub-stack platform where you can breathe easy and get your mom fixed on your own terms. Think of it like your own personal curated magazine delivered straight to your inbox. I talk about fun style inspiration that you can actually wear while also chasing kids or even heading into work. Badass Matriarch also has links to awesome recommended podcasts, articles and shows that will keep you entertained and informed. No more late night social media spirals, just good content you can enjoy when you have a moment to unwind. Your time is precious. Badass Matriarch is all about creating a supportive community for moms off the pressure cooker of social media. Here you can slow down, grab a cup of coffee, grab a glass of wine, connect and get the inspiration you need without the waste of time. So ditch the endless scroll and join us. Subscribe today and get ready to reclaim your time, rediscover the joy of motherhood and be the amazing mom you are on your own terms. Head over to Badass Matriarch, via the link in our show notes or simply type linsey and co.substack.com to join the fun. The subscription has several tiers, including a free tier. Looking forward to hanging out with you there. See ya. I would love to know what you have to say about what we can do as parents to address this frustration and try to keep them so that they're engaged. - So that's a great question. And I think when you're describing your daughters, actually very healthy sort of self-awareness. Now we don't want it to get out of control. We don't want her to be thinking all of the time that she's not keeping up. I think the best thing for that is to make sure she has the right sort of support to make her successful. So that's the number one thing we can do. But I also think to really kind of think about the kind of feedback that builds what we call intrinsic motivation, that motivation that really just makes you wanna do something because you just wanna be successful. And it sounds to me like in the example of your daughter, she has some of that. And then what it really means is not saying the wrong thing at the wrong time. And parents do that. Often we just do. Even if we say something like, "Oh, I think you're great at reading." And they'll say, "I'm not great at reading mom." And so, but we say things like that because we wanna be supportive. And we think in some ways, and we can even qualify things like that, that they are great at trying. So I think feedback is most effective when you describe how whatever your child is done has met the criteria that you expected. So I'm so glad that you are enthusiastically going to tutoring every week. Or I'm glad that you, in terms of like, let's say you asked your child to pick up their room and focusing on what they did, you put all your books on the shelf as opposed to, "Oh, I see so a long way to go here." That's not very helpful. So giving them feedback as to what they've done and making that positive, letting go of sort of the goals that you might have that might put more pressure on them. And then offering support and solutions and reflecting back what you're hearing. So for example, a child is saying, "I'm just no good at reading." Tell me more about that is a good response. And then also saying, "Listen, I see what you're saying. "I'm going to tell you what I'm seeing here. "I'm seeing you work very hard at this "and I know as an adult that hard work pays off." So even though you might not feel that way right now, I'm confident and I've got you. I've got your back and you're going to be fine. And a lot of times that's all kids want to know is that the adults around them know what they're doing and that they're going to be fine. - Yeah, yeah, no, I totally agree. I would love to pick your brain about just like as the traditional methods that the public school system uses to teach our kids. And now of course we have standardized testing and so many of the schools are encouraged to get the kids on a specific curriculum that will get them to wherever point A and B is throughout that particular year so that their testing scores are where they need to be. And I feel that this can sometimes be difficult for those that might experience learning differences or disabilities because of how the public school uses the traditional methods of teaching. And there's not a lot, at least here in America, of more of this different type of learning where it can be at a younger age, more play-based. I know some schools actually in our state are switching to that and I hope that's in the positive direction but I'd love to hear your viewpoint on just what you think should maybe happen in the public school system when it comes to kids that do have the slower processing speeds that do have maybe learning disabilities such as dyslexia or maybe ADHD or things like that. Like what do you think would be more or less the perfect way to attend to all the kids and how they learn as opposed to what, you know, that typical student that can sit in the chair for eight hours and learn. What would you suggest? - Well, two things come to mind. One is that there is no one size fits all for every student for sure. And we keep trying to figure this out. Keep trying to say that this is the one kind of classroom that works. This is, so that is just an unrealistic goes a wrong goal. It's not an unrealistic, it's wrong, it's wrong headed. And I think the biggest factor in an appropriate education for a child is the teacher. So good teachers don't even need what I do when I do an evaluation of a child and make all sorts of recommendations. Good teachers don't really need somebody like me for the most part because they already know and are constantly adapting their teaching style to meet the needs of the kids in their class. Now, of course, if you've got 25 kids in your class as opposed to 18, that goes right out the window. But competent teachers I think would go a long way into helping this, you know, we have a teacher shortage and teachers are burnt out. They're coming out of COVID after having lived through three years of all kinds of, you know, they really just sort of said, this is a lot to handle and it was. And so that's part of it. I think that really thinking about kids as individual learners is one important aspect. And so, you know, it takes time for teachers to think through that and for administrators to think through that as well. If I had just two things that I could say, kids would benefit from other than what I've just said, they do need more play. They need more free time. They need to be outside. A lot of times I see kids who are slow processors given extra time to do things, but it's during the time that everybody else is out playing. And even that is a shortened amount of time. So that's not okay. And that's what I mean. Like we don't always think through the sorts of recommendations that we put into place. But all kids should have more, more free time, more exploration. And I'm not a big fan of a lot of the standardized tests. Although I think they have a place we wanna know who is lagging behind just so that we can individualize their learning, not to call them out. But I do think there is too much teaching towards the test and too little time playing and too little time given to teachers, especially really competent teachers who have the power and the ability to individualize learning for kids because they're constrained by curriculum and that one size fits all kind of learning. - Right. And I think, overall, I think it's just, it's a lot to kind of put it onto the teacher to be like, a, try and figure out what might be even going on with this kid and then try to implement some sort of strategy to get them to, you know, be able to learn. It's just a lot. And like you said, they're coming out of COVID and I mean, they're just very much underappreciated and underpaid and it's just one of those jobs where, you know, you go to every day and yes, we do have some saints that will still give it their everything. But it can be, I mean, to be underappreciated and underpaid for a long, long time. I mean, I don't know what motivates you to go and do your job every day, you know? And I do realize there are some, again, that are absolutely wonderful and do it because they truly want to help the kids. But I mean, they're not being recognized and they're not being paid enough. So it's really, really difficult. And then, you know, you try to, at least with our experience, you try to get all the resources that you can, which we've successfully done, but again, you have time that's taken away from crucial parts of their day that they love and might miss out on. And overall, it just honestly, it kind of makes them feel like they're different, right? I'm different because I need to be taken out X amount of times a week, X amount of times a day to learn it in a different environment compared to where my friends are. And yeah, I think it can be really hard for kids. And then you look at, you know, of course there's these specialized schools, which I just listened to a podcast and there's one, my friend uses it too, Winward. Have you heard of Winward? - Oh, yes, I have, yeah. - Yeah. And so it was this gentleman, oh gosh, what podcast was it? I can't remember. Anyway, he grew up with dyslexia. And I think he was like one of six or seven kids or something and his mother barely was able to afford this Winward school and like barely was able to even get him there. 'Cause I guess it was a drive for them to get there. But she ended up, you know, getting him there for years. And, you know, he's this incredibly successful person now. And, you know, he talks about Winward as if it was like this incredible turn point in his life where he realized that there were many other people like him. And I think that part of it is what frustrates me a little bit when it comes to the public school because our daughter struggles with like, why do I have to be so different? And I just look at it and I'm like, you're not though. There are so many other kids that have the same thing as you. And I wish that it was set up such that they could bond over that, you know? And it's not really set up that way. It's more of like this individualized, okay, you require this help. And so we're doing this with you and, you know, it's all hush hush and nobody knows anything about what anybody else experiences. And I think there's something to be said for putting them together in more or less groups where they can talk about their struggles together and realize that they're not alone. - Yeah, absolutely. But you know what, I do feel like there's a place in any environment to be more inclusive about people's strengths and weaknesses. And so I worry in hearing this story that maybe there is in the way that the accommodations or remediations are given in that school, that there is something about it that makes children, and I see this in schools all the time, that there are some schools that just integrate the remediation seamlessly, that everybody, everybody has different ways of learning, and some kids need a different way of learning to read than others. And, you know, this is the teacher for this kind of reading, teaching, and this is the teacher for this kind. And then other places where kids do feel like they are ostracized or, oh, it's time, you know, Kelly, it's time for you to go down to the reading teacher. And so it's just little things in the environment can make kids feel more included. And I wonder in this sort of situation if there's a little bit of that going on. - Yeah, I know, and I think it's all kids, you know, they internalize things differently, and she's got big, big, big feelings and emotions, and I think she can sense that, you know, just generally. And I wonder all the time, you know, what the difference would be if she was at a school, you know, where she went to it, and every single person there, was the same, you know? And like how that would affect her as far as just her emotional state of mind, you know? 'Cause I do think that plays such a big part in trying to learn, and I think it can be hard for kids when they feel like they're the only ones. - It definitely can, yeah, it definitely can. And kids want to feel like everybody else. They wanna know that they belong and they're included. And if they don't have that, they start to then internalize or think that they're, you know, what's wrong with me, why am I different? And some kids, you know, they can roll off their back a little bit more, but the sensitive kids tend to be more sensitive, and this is a good thing in life, this ability to sort of look around and say, what's different here? - Yeah. - And, you know, when you're eight years old, it's harder. - Yeah. - It's more difficult. - Yeah. - What would be your top tips for parents that want to encourage building confidence within their kids? - That's a great question. I think one of the things that I would think about the most is having expectations that match the child that you have. So a lot of times we sort of idealize our children when we are expecting a child, we have ideas about what they'll be and what they'll do. So I think doing that, so the ways to build that or to be better at having expectations that are more in sync with your child or to spend time talking with your child about your expectations and about their expectations. So, you know, parents will say things like, well, you'll never go to college with grades like this. Or, you know, I can't imagine you'll ever be able to live on your own. Those are not good ways of conveying those sorts of expectations. So I think talk about your hopes for the future, even when they're younger, to say, you know, what you sort of hope will happen next year in their school year. I think also, we were talking about teachers before, trust the feedback from teachers, especially, you know, good teachers. So you want to, you know, listen to what the teachers are saying so that you can, you know, kind of again, match your expectations for what your child is capable of doing. And of course, if you've got a teacher, you don't agree with or don't, you know, feel like they're a good judge of your child's character. That's a different story. But for the most part, you know, most kids, it's not that the kid, that that's the case. I would think, help your kids understand the difference between talent and hard work. And I've seen a lot of really smart, talented kids become unmotivated kids because they were raised in an environment where they believed that they're academic or artistic or athletic, talents were all that mattered. So make sure that you have expectations for how they're going to get there or how they're doing, how hard they're working at it. And then I think, you know, we talked about this before, having that realistic understanding of your child's capabilities, I think is important. So like, for instance, if your child is learning challenges, get more information on what those are, get more information about what to expect. So, you know, it's sort of like making the mistake of thinking your child is more or less capable than he or she or they are is what underlies a lot of the problems with expectations and then also that feeds into motivation. - Right, yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. Okay, I want to ask you one more question before we wrap things up. So if there's anybody listening here that is wondering, you know, how they can advocate better for, you know, what they think their child might need within the school system, what advice can you get for them? - Okay, so one of the things I would say is know what your child needs. Like that seems obvious, but a lot of times parents just have this gut feeling that something isn't working, get more information and know exactly what is, go to a professional, get evaluated through the school, but get that information. Plan and know where your child may have specific problems, ask for specific help in that area. Get a good understanding too about the environment. So the child teacher match is very important, not every teacher is great with every child. And so you want to be able to advocate for the kind of teacher that you think your child is going to do best with. And I think if you know there are certain things that will stress your child out, decide which things are worth letting go of and which things are worth fighting for. Because a lot of times parents go into schools thinking that they just need everything on their list. And that's not to say you should dumb down your list, but I think you should go in thinking what sorts of things are non-negotiable and what kinds of things you can compromise on and don't compromise on the things that are non-negotiable. And then I also think, you know, a lot of times I hear school say, this is one of my pet peeves, schools talk about how kids need to be better advocates for themselves. And almost always parents go into these meetings with schools and schools are like, well, you know, your child needs to be better and advocating for themselves. And then we would know what they need. And I think that is one of the worst things that we put on kids. We as adults are really bad at advocating for ourselves. I don't know why we expected from a nine or 10 year old. So it's, you know, go in prepared to fight back with that because almost always they will say, well, you know, your child's gonna have to ask for that if they need it. Uh-uh. When we have, you know, when we need accommodations in our life, we don't expect to always have to ask for that. So think about that as you're working through and trying to figure out how to ask for the right kinds of accommodations and remedial strategies for your child. - Yeah, I love that you brought that up. We don't even know what to advocate for our own self. Isn't that the time, right? - No, wait, I think this is all the time. It's just like, even like, I've had kids where it's sort of like they have trouble hearing and, you know, have, or under a hearing disability on their IEP. And I've had, I've been in meetings where they said, well, you know, if they can't hear it, they're going to have to raise their hand. It's like, they don't know that they can't hear it. They get sort of like that kind of thing where, you know, the child's in the classroom and doesn't even know that there's language going on in the classroom that they're not aware of. So it's just a, it's a crazy kind of thing that we've put into place in our academic culture that kids are responsible for knowing what they need. And it puts a lot of pressure on them and it's unfair. - Yeah, yeah, totally agree. Okay, is there anything that you want to add to the conversation that we might have missed? - I think, you know, one of the things I would just sort of say is we didn't really talk about how sometimes we over parent a little bit too. And so one of the things to just think about is the stress level in your kids' lives and the over scheduling and the lack of sleep. And lack of sleep might underlie a lot of the increase in mental health increases that we're seeing these days with kids. And I would just say that think about that when you're planning ahead for a school year or a summer, are we planning too much? Are the things that we've planned getting in the way of sleep? Because you are not very motivated when you haven't had enough sleep. So that is absolutely key and we overlook it all the time. - Yes, absolutely. Okay, so ending with two questions I ask everybody I have on. So the first question is if you could give one piece of advice to moms, what would it be? Oh, I think I sort of said this already, but I really believe it's true. Raise the kid you have, not the kid you wish you had, because we all want to parent the child, our idealized version of our child. And I think really thinking about, I want to raise this child that I was given as opposed to the child I idealized. So. - Yes, yes, absolutely. And if you could make one meal for your family that everyone would eat, that's relatively quick and easy, what would it be? - Oh, spaghetti with tomato sauce. - Are you making that sauce by your, like on your own? Are you just buying the jar sauce? - The thing I love about it is I can make it on my own when I want to, but I can also open a great jar of sauce. And so that is my, that is definitely, it was always my go-to and even I had a very picky eater. My son was extremely picky eater as a kid and is now 30 years old and it's absolutely everything. Just another thing to kind of think about. - Oh, I kind of love that you mentioned this because yeah, I've got a lot of just pasta eaters in my house. (laughs) - Oh, I mean, it was pasta with butter sauce and only butter sauce, no cheese, no, but it's, yeah. I guess, you know what, I would add to that piece of advice is that most kids turn out just fine. Most of them, the fast ass majority of kids, all of the quirkiness they have as a young child that you worry about goes away and they become adults and they grow up. And I think we kind of forget that and it's nice to be on the other side. You know, not my kids are, they're 20s and 30s and it's kind of nice to be on the other side to know that that does happen. That picky eater will grow into an adult. They won't have chicken pieces at their wedding banquet. So it's really just hang in there. (laughs) It does get better. That is so good to hear. I know that there's probably a lot of people listening to me and like, oh, phew, thank God. - It's true, it takes a long time though. - And you know, I mean, it's just the things you worry about, right? It's just like, you don't need to worry about this. Like, this is not, this is like small stuff. Like what they're eating, like, who cares? (laughs) - I know, I know. - I mean, I grew up on, and I say this, and my mom cooked every night for sure. Like, we always had amazing meals, but I mean, little Debbie, everything. Like, it was like little Debbie snacks for breakfast and just during the day. Like, it was just like, you know, and now it's like, everything has to be organic and like, everything has to have carrots in it or whatever. And it's like, I don't know. (laughs) - I don't know. I had like, top tarts for breakfast were my, yeah, no two breakfast when I was a kid. It was like, yeah. - I know. - Exactly. - Exactly. - Let it go, do it if you love it, but don't stress out over it. - Don't stress out. - Yes, totally agree. - Well, thank you so much, Ellen, for taking the time to talk with us today. I really appreciate you. - Oh, it was so great having this conversation. - Thank you so much for hanging out with us today. All resources mentioned in this episode can be found in the show notes on lensianco.com. To continue these important conversations, head over to motherhood meets medicine on Instagram. Let me know what you learned from this episode and who you would love to hear from next. I always love getting feedback from you. If you're finding value in this podcast, please rate, review, subscribe, and share with a friend. This will help us to reach even more women from around the world. I'll catch you next week. Until then, don't forget to find some time to unplug, unwind, and have a little fun. (beeping) (beeping)
