At Sierra, discover great deals on top-brand workout gear, like high-quality bikes, which might lead to another discovery. Getting back in the saddle isn't always comfortable. Good news is, Sierra has massage guns and shave wipes, too. Discover top brands at unexpectedly low prices. Sierra, let's get moving. Our first sponsor today is Navy Hair Care. I have been working with Navy Hair Care since they launched back in 2018. At that time, I was about a year postpartum with our third child, and my hair was experiencing some trouble after some significant postpartum hair loss. Navy really helped to strengthen my hair, and I noticed a big difference about one to two months after using it regularly. With biotin, vitamins, and rosemary oil, this shampoo and conditioner combo has been part of my daily routine for years now. I also used the charcoal mask every one to two weeks to help revitalize my hair. It helps to dry out toxins, heavy metals, and impurities, which we have plenty of since we have well water. This mask will leave your hair feeling incredibly soft and lightweight. You can use the code LindseyLYNZY for 30% off your order, and I will leave the links to the products I mentioned within the show notes. Hello, everyone. Today, I will be speaking with Dr. Kelly Jamison. Dr. Jamison is a therapist and speaker located in Dallas, Texas. She specializes in teens and the mental health of mothers. In today's episode, we will be talking all about birth order and its potential impact on personalities and family dynamics. We will also chat about how birth order might influence a mother's parenting style. We will understand how birth order can help navigate sibling rivalries and foster a sense of fairness, and so much more. This is a great conversation, and I can't wait to get started. Just a little disclaimer before we start this episode. This podcast does not provide medical advice. Information on this podcast is for informational purposes only. No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. One more note before we start. If you are feeling overwhelmed by the constant scroll on social media and want a place where you can consume curated motherhood content at your own pace, join us over at Badass Matriarch on Substack, a place where you can slow down, connect, and get the inspiration you need without the wasted time. I think it's in the show notes. See you there. Hello, everybody. Today we have Dr. Kelly Jamison here on the podcast. Welcome. Thank you. Thank you. Happy to be here. So today we are going to be talking about birth order. I think this is a really fun topic, not only just kind of reflecting back upon yourself and where you were in that birth order, but then maybe whoever you end up being within a relationship where they are in birth order and your children and how they react to their birth order and we're just chatting, I mean, my oldest could probably run her own household at this point. And sometimes I do. It's like I almost feel bad that she has so much responsibility. And I always try to remind her, like, you don't need to have this much responsibility at your age. You really don't. It's just is how it is because of where you are within the family. But yeah, I would love for you to talk to us first about just kind of explaining this concept of birth order and how it can potentially impact personalities and your family dynamics. Sure. So the basic tenant of birth order is that when babies are born, they look to others to figure out how to do life and how to be and how to get their needs met. So in a family of multiple children, there's a lot of different models of how to do that. But typically, the reason why there's so many stereotypes about only children and oldest children, particularly, is because when they're growing up, like early on, and they're trying to figure out, you know, how to do life and how to be, their only models are generally speaking mom and dad. So they're getting a pretty sophisticated model of how to be efficient and organized and clean and timely. So they just, their model is sort of the adult manual on how to do things. And then subsequent children, while they also have mom and dad to look at things, they're also looking at siblings on how to learn how to do things. And that's, that is a different model. It's messier, it's not as effective, it is more emotional. So that's why you get family, the birth order thing is that you're basically looking at a person in front of you to figure out how you should be, or first born or only, is looking at mom and dad. Child number two is looking at child number one. Child number three is looking at child number two and child number one. So all of this plays into kind of formation of personality. And while some traits are fixed and genetic, a lot of it's environmental. So there's a lot of good research saying that it's actually our sibling relationships have more of an impact on our personality development than our parents. Oh, wow. And that's really, that's really the basis of all of the, the birth order line of thinking. That's so interesting. Would you be able to maybe go through oldest, youngest and middle and just tell us kind of what those like preconceived notions are attached to each of them typically? Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, everyone on Instagram always sends me all these funny videos about first born daughters, you know, that there's, that they're so like rigid and bossy and things like that. When we talk about firstborns, we're also talking about only children because we say that only children are kind of firstborns on steroids. It's me. So those two kind of go together, but generally speaking, the profile of a firstborn or an only child are basically, they have more of an organized mind. They're more efficient, they're task oriented, they're achievement oriented and they're more black and white thinkers so they can be a little judgy. So this firstborns, particularly, there's two types of firstborns, but that's only the case for firstborns. And this is not the case with middles or lastborns. Okay. So there's two types of firstborns. There is what we call a compliant firstborn and that's your very sweet caretaking people pleasinging. They don't really complain firstborn. And then there is more of an aggressive firstborn. And these are the ones that really, they get the bad reputation. They're the ones that are bossy and mean and sort of cutting and judgmental just because they just, their brain is sort of runs on a little faster loop than everyone else and they get annoyed when other people can't keep up. So those are generally the types of firstborns. So like for example, my oldest is a boy and he's 16 and he's the compliant firstborn. Like he is just my sweet, sweet, compliant, doesn't really want to ruffle any feathers. That's my firstborn, but there's two types. So you're going to get one or the other, but generally speaking, the stereotype is more of the aggressive firstborn, but there also is half that are really these sweet, compliant players. Yeah. Yeah. And they don't, they don't want to upset anyone. So that's the firstborn and the only children. And there's a whole bunch of research about how firstborns and only have higher IQs than other birth orders. And it's not necessarily because mom was younger or healthier, took her pregnancy more seriously than other pregnancies. It's really just about parents tend to dump a lot more resources into their firstborns than they do subsequent children. So your firstborn, you're going to be at the library for story time. You're going to be at the little mommy and me swim lessons with like your nine month old. And you're going to do all of these cute, see little things with the firstborn that you're not doing with others. And those early learning resources, those pay off later with IQ. So that's kind of firstborn. And then you have your middles, which are basically kind of our mystery children, not because we don't pay enough attention to them, but they play off of their other siblings. So they tend to be the most secretive, they prefer to be at other people's houses. They're fiercely loyal, they're very diplomatic, they can argue both sides of things. They tend to be more service oriented. They choose more service oriented careers. So we're talking teachers, nurses, firefighter, policemen, government officials. So while the middle child gets a bad rap like growing up, they actually do leave the house with the best, most well rounded skill set of any birth order. Interesting. And then the youngest, the youngest is generally the most charming, charismatic, biggest personality. The most entertaining, they're like, whatever, it's all going to work out mentality. And that's actually the hardest row to fill. It doesn't seem that way, but if you think about a rasporn, they are like career-wise they're in the sales, they're into outdoor things. You get a lot of teachers also with lastborns, they just love an audience. And here's the deal. That's interesting. Firstborns and middles, they kind of have their rules to find. But by the time you're the last, all of the other rows in the family have been filled. And the last one requires the most vulnerability, because you have to put yourself out there to entertain everyone, or to be the comic relief, or to relieve the pressure. And that takes a skill set of laughing at yourself and doing something silly, standing up in a room full of people and singing. Our lastborn would have no problems doing, because they're wired early on to understand that my role in this family is to bring love and to make everyone else feel better. Which is a really hard row to fill. That's why it always ends up being the last, because no one wants it. You ask a firstborn to stand up in the middle of a room and sing a song, or to dance or actually, or to do a nice break, or they'd rather die. But a lastborn is like, hell yeah, I'll do that. And when I speak on this topic, it's so great. I mean, it's, by far, this is my most popular topic that everyone, businesses, schools, I mean, people just love this topic, because they can relate with themselves and also their children and their spouses. But when I ask in the room who are firstborns, even the way they raise their hand is so funny to me. It's just so formal, and it's like, present, you know. And then the middleborns are like, you know, I'm here, they're kind of, you know, they don't really want a ton of attention, but they're like, yeah, whatever, I'm here. And then when I was like, okay, who are my lastborn? They literally were like high five each other and chant and cheer, even upon just asking a room full of people who are my lastborns. Oh, my gosh, I love that so much. It is so funny, and it makes me laugh every single time, because I know it's coming. I'm like, okay, who are my lastborns? And they're like, whoa, whoa, you know, they all deserve it. It's so funny to me. And it's just so typical that they are like, just loving life. I personally struggle, and I'm sure you've heard this from other mothers, but like, I struggle with that guilt of, oh, my gosh, I'm putting them into these like boxes of, like you said, of course, a lot of the resources get diverted to that firstborn and the second third and then God forbid the fourth, you're like, okay, I got no research. I mean, I think about this all the time, because our oldest, she likes to do, she's love sports, right? So she's in, we try to limit it, right, to like one season, but inevitably a few things kind of sneak by, whatever. So she's busy, right? And then they end up, you know, they're growing up, they go to all her stuff and they're old enough. Now we're like one of the middle ones is starting to do some things, but I'm like, oh, well, we don't have time to, it just, you always feel bad because you're like, well, all these resources are going to the oldest. I mean, which they should considering, you know, the age appropriate, like where they should be as far as activity things go, they're older and so they're participating in more, but you feel bad, like you can't help feel like you're putting them into this box of how they're going to be when they're older because of birth order. But I like how you really emphasized that some of these kids like the middleborns are going to come out actually being better off in the long run, just like leaving the house and being like the best prepared for life. It makes me feel better because I'm like, oh gosh, these poor middleborn children, right? Well, you know, they really do. I mean, they end up being the best marriage cartoners, they're the most loyal because they're really trying to make family work in a way that they felt like they maybe were a little slighted in their family growing up, which may or may not be true, but they just fight for family a little bit more. Yeah. I mean, I say this all the time because it's so true, but it's like if you're a parent, it's like trying to do a good job, no matter what, no matter what you do, right? If you think you're doing the right thing, there's going to be one, two, three, maybe all of your kids are going to end up in therapy for something, right? You could raise each one of your kids totally exactly the same, which usually doesn't happen because everyone has different personalities and require different things, but if you were to do that, your firstborn could absolutely love the way that they're a parent and have no qualms with it, but then your secondborn could be like, oh my gosh, that made me feel this way. And this made me, because of just personality and like, you know, how they receive information. So, you know, I'm always telling myself, you're doing your best job and they're going to end up in therapy for something and it just doesn't matter. You've got to try to do your best. Yeah, because it's so true. Well, here's what I know as a therapist is we overvalue our impact on who these children become. We really do. We like to think that we are like 90% of the recipe and the truth of the matter is we just aren't like we are one factor of money in the human experience of these children, but we hold this world of mom so sacred that we act like and we really believe that we are honest to God, like the most important factor in their life. And everything plays into why they end up or not end up in therapy as an adult, right? Like teachers, coaches, friend groups, romantic partners, we tend to overvalue our experiences parents. I love that quote. Can you say it again? Do you remember what it was? We overvalue our influence on who these children become. Yeah. We honestly think that we are like 90% and we are not. Maybe we're 50% maybe, but also the inequalities, I think the children feel also goes to when we're parenting our first, it is also the first for us on every milestone for them. So we are locked in trying to understand kindergarten and then we're trying to understand middle school and we're trying to understand club sports for the first time and we're trying to understand the college application process. So we are dialed in on everything our first one does because we're new to everything they do also by the time of second and the third apply to college, we can like, we kind of know what's necessary and what's not necessarily, you know, like, do that, don't do this, you know, this is important. This is an important and that can feel dismissive to the child because it's their first time experiencing whatever the milestone is, but we feel like, oh, we've been here, done that before, you know, like, don't do this, do that. And that's, that's where you get a second, third, fourth, born thinking there's such inequalities is because we approach these events as a first timer with our first born so much more intently than we do other children. And that's where you start getting that it's unfair situation. Right. And I was just going to ask you about that because that happens in my household every single day. Right. I'll help, but it's always that, you know, I'm trying to think of a recent example. Oh, okay. So my oldest loves to watch WNBA and so one night she's like, Oh, you know, Caitlin Clarkson. I want to watch her. Okay. You know, it's only eight o'clock. Your bedtime, you know, I like she winds down at eight thirty, hopefully sleep by nine. So put it on for her. And then my, my middle, my third middle comes down six and he's like, okay, I want to watch this. And I'm like, well, your bedtime is a, this is so unfair. Everything's unfair. And then it goes from like this particular situation is unfair to life is unfair. And you know, all these things. Yep. So how do you suggest kind of handling that sense of fairness and just like navigating sibling rivalries in general? And I don't know if you know anything about this as a therapist and just birth order in general, but like my two middles will fight to the death. I don't know. Maybe it's just a combination of their personalities, but they play together, right? They'll play together so well, like this beautiful imaginary play or they go outside with their nets and they catch bugs and they like beautifully, right? And then like 25% of the time it is straight up like they're in a boxing ring. I mean, it's. So one's a girl and one's a boy. How many years between them? Twenty two months. Yeah. So here's what the research says is anytime you get less than two years between two children, there's not enough time. There's not enough distance between them for there to be like a natural power hierarchy. So that's why they're duking it out and it's worse with boys, physicality of it, is because they are on the daily trying to figure out who's stronger, who's smarter, who's more capable and outside of a two year window, those developmental stages are pretty obvious. But within two years is why you're getting so much conflict. Well, why didn't anybody tell me that when I was pregnant? Yeah. I mean, I mean, it makes a lot of sense, obviously, but yeah, I mean, it's, it's wild to me. I'm like, I can't. Yeah. It honestly, I mean, not to, you know, rain on your parade, but it lasts all the way through adults. You know, I have people in therapy that are like 25, 26, you know, and even still, or even like grown adults who are still competing about like who's hosting Thanksgiving. It just continues on and it blows my mind, like, wow, this just doesn't stop. And the sitting's like, well, my parents spent this much on my sister's wedding or this much on the car or they go to their, you know, they take their family to the beach and like this ledger just keeps going forever and ever till the end of time. What is your suggestion for that though? Like just the, the, what is your suggestion of a response? I guess it would vary a little bit depending on age, but the response of why parents choose to do certain things with some kid, like one child, but not the other. These beliefs are so entrenched by the time they're adults. These beliefs are so entrenched. Nothing that I can say is going to shift that nothing, for example, in my own house. So I have 16 year old boy, I have a 14 year old girl and an 11 year old boy. So boy, girl boy, my middle is my only girl is my middle. So anytime she pulls the middle card, I'm like, ah, you're the only girl. Everything you have is new. You don't have to share. I don't want to hear it. Being the only girl in the gates, the only child, so hush, but anyway. So recently, like her, me has been bothering her and my older boys play lacrosse like every day on multiple teams. She's had a variety of injuries, you know, well, my daughter is like, she's complaining about this need problem, you know, and honestly, we haven't done anything about it. And the other day, she just had had it and she said, if this were miles, I'd already have an MRI and an X-ray and you'd have already driven me to this specialist and that specialist. And I mean, she's not wrong, but she's not wrong, but I also want to say like, well, that's probably just overuse and it goes back to the everything with your firstborn is new to you. So every injury, you're like, you don't know what, what this injury is. You don't know what a lower back sprain looks like. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. I'm kind of looking at her and being like, okay, you probably, sometimes overuse sprain, like I'm not going to go spend $3,000 on an MRI, but to her, it is a complete straight up injustice. And that if it were any of her brothers, we'd be at the ER immediately. And those are her beliefs, right? Like, because that's what she has witnessed, which again, is not a lie, but I have to explain to her with Peyton, I'm not rushing to the arm because I have a little bit of experience with this now. I was overuse, but she just sees it as we love him more. And again, I feel like there's, yeah, like you said, there is no changing, like that is her thought process and that will be her thought process. And just because you're explaining it doesn't mean it's going to change the thought process process. Precisely. And it makes complete sense. I can't imagine with our fourth, I mean, we're emergency medicine train, but any, it's going to take a lot, right? For us to react because we've seen it all. Yeah. Exactly. So even when they grow up and I've got a client who's in here talking about what parents spend on a wedding or a car, et cetera, I can smile and message to them the sounds ridiculous. And they'll say, I know this sounds ridiculous, but this is what I believe or this is what I think. And I have to honor it, but I also message to them like, come on, you're a little bit too old for that, you know, but I can't, I'm not going to change that belief system. Now, that was the only reason why they were coming to therapy and we were just digging, digging, digging. I could make a small shift, but kind of a drive-by conversation about holidays and who's hosting and whatnot. Like, I'm not, I'm not impacting any change in that. Those are decades long opinions. Right. Yeah. No, absolutely. Hey, everyone. Lindsey here, do you feel constantly overwhelmed by the scroll on social media, constantly drowning in a sea of saved screenshots of things you'll never go back to, an outfit and home photos that lead you feeling, I don't know, pretty empty? Yeah, been there, done that. That's why I ditched the never-ending feed of Instagram in 2021 and created Badass Matriarch, a sub-stack platform where you can breathe easy and get your mom fix on your own terms. Think of it like your own personal curated magazine delivered straight to your inbox. I talk about fun style inspiration that you can actually wear while also chasing kids or even heading into work. Badass Matriarch also has links to awesome, recommended podcasts, articles, and shows that will keep you entertained and informed. No more late night social media spirals. Just good content you can enjoy when you have a moment to unwind. Your time is precious. Badass Matriarch is all about creating a supportive community for moms off the pressure cooker of social media. Here you can slow down, grab a cup of coffee, grab a glass of wine, connect and get the inspiration you need without the waste of time. So ditch the endless scroll and join us. Subscribe today and get ready to reclaim your time, rediscover the joy of motherhood, and be the amazing mom you are on your own terms. Head over to Badass Matriarch via the link in our show notes or simply type linseyandco.substack.com to join the fun. The subscription has several tiers including a free tier. What I think is pretty interesting kind of flipping it back onto the parent, so the mother, the father, when it comes to where they are in their own birth order, what their parenting style is. So what does that look like? Okay, so well, I'm sure you can guess, a first born or an only parent is going to have a little bit more structured/rigid parenting style because a lot of first borns and onlys have our kind of fear based where middles and onlys are going to have a much more permissive parenting style. Like in my house, I am a last born, I'm the youngest of three girls, and my husband is the oldest of two boys. So and we have two teenagers. So I'm kind of like, until you give us a reason not to trust you, like, I'm going to trust you, where my first born husband is more like, okay, well, I think you need to be home by, you know, this time and who's going and I think you should drive and I'll pick you up and it's so much more like a controlled situation where the child's looking at me like, you keep talking and I'm looking at the child like, I can't do anything here, you know. The kids know they obviously know the parenting styles, but you can pretty much align parenting styles with birth order. So the birth order, the lower ridger, the parenting style, and it just goes right on down. Yeah. So the problem in our family is that we're both first borns. So goodness. Oh, goodness. Oh, goodness. Oh, she's like, y'all need therapy. No. And so, yeah, that is the, you know, that's so funny that you mentioned that because I just, the parenting style of like the middle children are like the last is so much more like lacks. I don't, I want to say that because that's what it seems like to me, just like more like it, but I feel like that's so much better for the kids. And this is like always what I'm trying to do myself, like when I'm trying to correct what's happening, like with my parenting style, it's always too rigid or I'm not giving them the benefit of the doubt or I'm just exactly what you're kind of describing. And like the problem is you and your husband have this like lovely, delicate balance of both sides and like do not, we do not well, you know what I mean, but it's two different perspectives at least, right? Whereas ours is like not, you know, we're very, and we have four kids. So everything is more regimented because, I mean, in order to get anything done, it kind of has to be like there's a lot going on, a lot of people need to get out of the house and whatever. So, so that kind of compounds it for sure, but that's, it's so interesting to me. Well, now that I'm seeing with the, the all the apps and things, I am seeing a lot of parents who are constantly checking where their child is, like tracking, they're tracking their child constantly. And a lot of it are college girls who are away from home and you get an anxious parent who's sitting at home watching her on the weekends, generally speaking, tracking her, texting her. Where are you going? Where are you going? Where are you? I've got college kids who, the girls, she was traveling in the opposite direction from her apartment, you know, late at night on the weekend. And her mom texted her. Where are you? And she said, I'm on a bus. She was like with her sorority or something. She's like, we're heading to a party and the mom didn't believe her. And the mom made her take a picture on the bus and send it to her. I'm like, she's like, this is the level of control and worry. And she's like, and I'm like, I am hours away from home. And then I have, I have other kids who say that, you know, a parent will track them if they're not in class, like a parent knows their college schedule. So I had one boring client this year tell me, I just drive to the parking garage at school and I just sleep in my car. Because it looks like I'm on campus, but I'm asleep, you know, they want to skip class or something. Or a lot of times I guess nowadays in college teachers will cancel class and they'll say, watch this TED talk or watch this YouTube video and we'll discuss it next class. So in lieu of class, please watch this video. And so a parent will blow up a kid's phone and be like, where are you? It's like the professor canceled class. Like, no, he didn't. And then they have to screenshot the message from the professor and text it to their parent. So this to me is like, absolutely, I mean, this is like a whole, I mean, this is like a whole podcast by itself because the like over surveillance of kids is like so wild to me. And this is where I kind of go in the total opposite direction where I'm like, my oldest will walk home from school. She still does not have any type of the no watch, nothing, no phone, nothing. She just walks and she always has a buddy. So that's the rule, right, a buddy. But that buddy also doesn't have any way of I'm like, okay, if you have a problem, I give her the tools that she needs to navigate a situation, right? If something happens, you fall, you get hurt, you're in trouble, like, what are your options? What can you do? Oh, mom, I can run to the nearest house and knock on the door. Oh, mom, I can, you know, scream out and yell and somebody will hopefully come out. I can run into the backyard or something. So she goes, she works through what she could do if there was a situation and she didn't have access to a phone. I worry for some of these kids that grow up super surveillance and just constantly connected where they feel like they have that comfort almost of like, Oh, if I have any trouble, I can just use my phone. What happens if they don't, right? What happens if I don't know? There is some crazy thing where all of a sudden the cell phone towers go down and you have no access to they're going to lose it because they don't complete panic and it is just I mean, Jonathan Haid kind of talked about this in his book, right? Where he, the anxious generation where he talks about how the surveillance of these kids who need so desperately to be more independent. And that is our job as parents, like one of the most important top three jobs we need to teach our kids is how to live alone by themselves, be independent, make good choices and learn from, you know, bad choices, whatever, like you want them making mistakes while they still live with you, let them do that, stop tracking them and trying to figure out what they're doing and stopping them before they make a mistake. You want them to actually make these mistakes like truly, right? And I don't know if this has anything to do with it. But when I meet people, they'll say like, I would have never guessed you were an only child and I swear and now that we're kind of talking through this, I'm thinking about it in my head and I'm thinking maybe it's because both of my parents were the babies of a family of three, both of them. So they were both the youngest in a family of three. And when I think back to the way that I grew up, like I was outdoors, probably 95% of the time, like no matter what the season was, and I didn't have any really specific rules that I can remember. Maybe I did, but I don't remember them. That's how insignificant they were. And it was like be back before it's dark to have dinner. That was it. I had no, no one was following me. No one could contact me. I was a kid in the woods in a small neighborhood just playing with kids of all ages. Mind you, all ages, right? Boys that were in their teens and I was six, like just all ages. And I do think that significantly influences the way that I parent, even though I am one of, you know, just an only child. So thank God I had that and I don't ever remember them like they never raised their voice. They never, they were calm all the time. I mean, it's like, and my dad, to be honest with you, was so lax that I could probably have literally done anything if it was just him, like anything and everything, whereas my mom really tried to like at least reel it in. And to me, to me growing up, she seemed extremely strict. And now that I look back, I'm like, she wasn't strict at all. Like she really wasn't. And she just in stark contrast to my dad was strict, right? But yeah, I think maybe because of like how they parented me, I'm in that better place of being able to like, I don't ever feel the need to be constantly in touch with my kids or managing their every move or like I feel very strongly about them being independent as early as possible, which I think kind of goes against that thought process of like an only child or an oldest parenting situation. But yeah, it's, it's just, I don't know, it's crazy. There's so many fact that like as you were talking, I was thinking, I'm curious about the age of your parents, right? Like my parents were older, I was the last born, I'm with you, I was, I'm from Kentucky. We played in the woods constantly, something about age of parents, but then I'm thinking about also my parents were not completely obsessed with my future in the way that parents are now. Like everything is calculated and taken to account and everything is fear-based because if you screw this up, then you won't have this opportunity or you won't have a chance to be on this team or you won't be able to pride of that school. And I have never seen such intense focus on the future of little people that I do right now. I think that's actually really fascinating because, I mean, you're, you're so right. I mean, first of all, parents didn't have the time, they didn't have the time to be kind of like obsessing about this much, about what their kids are doing and where they're going and what they're involved in and who their friend groups are and all of those things. They just didn't have it the time. I don't know, you know, I think there's just, and I don't want to say there's too much time in their hands because if there's not, like I'm home, I don't know, 80% of the time and I work in the hospital, 20% right, but I'm just using those numbers, but it's roughly that. And I still feel like I have no time, but like I think if we were to really look at how this is going to affect them in the long run, it's just not good at all to be so incredibly involved because they need to be their own person. And like you said in the very beginning, we really overvalue our impact on them. They are impacted and influenced by so many other things that do not involve us at all, at all. Right. And research will say like generally people lean into their strengths because there is an outside adult that poured into them. Like we love our children, but they believe that we are obligated to believe in them. Yeah. But your history teacher isn't, or your dad's like best friend, like your cool uncle isn't. You know, it's like, so we really start to see kids believe in themselves based on outside validation or, you know, support that doesn't feel obligatory to the child. Right. And all of the adults in their lives are so crucial. Yeah. They're so crucial. Like their youth group leader, their teachers, their coaches, their adults in the neighborhood, family friends who can really look at your child and say, Hey, Miles, tell me, tell me about your Eagle Scout project, not the like, Hey, how school, like, you know, if you can ask a more specific question about the child or their interests and not just the generic, how's football, how's school, that goes such a long way. And those become those outside influences that help these kids discover their authentic self. I mean, I can point to each of my three children and tell you what I think is their authentic self based on just me knowing them so that at the end of the day, truth of the matter is it's going to be some other adult or influence that tells them, Hey, I think you should take this broadcast in class. I think you'd be really good at it or, Hey, I think you should try this for them to believe like, Oh, okay, I'm going to try that. And that's really how they start to uncover who they are. Right. Right. I mean, I love the idea of like growing up my go to adult person was my mom's best friend, right? And you have to know and understand as the parent that you are not going to be the person that I mean, obviously there's exceptions to this and obviously like your whole goal is to make yourself open enough and build a relationship where they can come to you with anything and everything. But the reality is they're not going to always, and you want to be able to provide them with that person, whoever that person might be, that they can connect with on that adult level and give them that confidence they need or the maybe just they want to talk through, you know, a certain thing that might have happened and they don't want to go to you, you want to be able to have those, those go to people and, you know, me and my friends always talk about that where we're like, I want to be that go to person for your kids, you know, like I have a, a friend on the street who her daughter is 13 and, and she trusted me with a secret recently and I was like, this is the best thing ever. Like, oh my gosh, I hope she trusts me forever because I really value that another child that is not mine wants to come with me with any type of information, right? And it's so vital and important for them to have that person. And yeah, so I think because if there's not that adult, they're going to their peers and let's be clear, peers are not trained for, for problem. They're great at listening, but the second layer out, which is the advice, they're bad. So kids are always like, you know, my friends, I can tell them anything. Well, yeah, they're great sounding boards, but it's part two. That's the important part. And that's the, how do you address the problem? And that's where those adults become so crucial because if you don't have those great adults in their lives, then they're just checking in with friends about how to deal with that problem. And that's not the best. No, it's not. No, it is not. So how can we as mothers support each of our kids where they are? So firstborns, middle children, youngest, how can we help support them and kind of nurture the qualities that will exist simply because of where they are in their birth order? Sure. Good question. But with firstborns and onlys, it sounds counterintuitive, but you really want to downplay their achievements because they're such people pleasers and they're just looking for such validation from adults that you really don't want to highlight or display any achievement that caused the family some sort of distress. So if you have a complete stress ball of a firstborn who is, you know, setting for finals, but she's a complete terror around the house and then she crushes her finals, like we're not going to celebrate that, right? Because you may have gotten these, but you got these around the house. Therefore, we're going to super score that and you've got to be minus, right? So, so there's no need to amplify that intrinsic motor that's already in them. So with firstborns and onlys, we want to practice spontaneity and flexibility and we want to model just chilling out a little bit, right? So that's like on a random Saturday, it's like, hey, why don't we go try this crazy restaurant that's like 45 minutes out of town? You just want to constantly like be spontaneous with them. Otherwise they live day to day thinking, I have a schedule, I have an agenda, I've got to do this, I've got to do this. And that's just going to make for a really tough life. Oh my gosh. Okay. Side note, sorry in the middle of your, but this reminds me of just our firstborn shield right on our post. It's like exactly what she needs for the next day. Okay. Tomorrow I have this, this, this, I need to pack this, this, this, this, this, and she puts them all over her bureau. And so the first, so the only child in me and the first, like the only child firstborn in me looks at that and I'm like, oh, I love that. And then I'm like, oh jeez, maybe that's not great. And you know who else loves that? Schools. Yeah, I know. Schools love that. They do. They thrive in school because of it. Right. I tell young people this all the time is like, this is only working for you because you have youth on your side. This is unsustainable when your body starts to age. You cannot, cannot sustain this rate, this pace, like you cannot do it. And these are the kids that are in med school. They're in law school. That's true. That's true. Those are those kids. It is. Right? So, but schools will love it. Coaches love it. Everybody wants a part of that kid, you know, to be like the face of their program. They want to put them in front of parents and it feeds the beast. It does. So, at home, you want to kind of downplay those achievements and make it like not dismissive, but you're like, oh, good job, but we're not going to put it on the refrigerator. So that's those. Okay. And then middle children, you want to parent them by asking them a lot of pointed questions about what they think. So for lastborns, the important thing to remember when parenting them is to take them seriously because they spend most of their time entertaining people and lightening the room. So this leaves them with basically like imposter syndrome. They believe they only have value when they're making others feel better. But then when they have something important or serious or formal to say, they feel like people don't really take them seriously. So for parents, it's important to whether they're talking about the future or goals or just what they think about their friends is to not laugh it off, but to really meet them where they are when they are trying to be serious and take them seriously. This goes on for adulthood. They kind of like try to change the world, basically, because there's this underlying belief that they're not smart enough or they're not capable enough. So therefore, they take a lot of risks with their career and with their big goals as adults. And that is all just this underlying belief that they feel like people don't take them seriously and they only have value when they're lightening the mood. So interesting. This is like so helpful. Information I've heard before, so look at that. Okay, so two things. One is, are there any resources or books that you have found interesting when it comes to learning more about birth order in general? Yes, but they're old. That's okay. There's not a ton of new stuff on birth order and everyone's always like, "Tell me, when are you going to write a new book on birth order?" Here's your chance. I know. I know. I know. Yeah. So there's a good one about her spawns. There's one called "The Sibling Effect" by Jeffrey Klueger, which is good. There's kind of classic birth order effect books all by psychologists, Linda Blair, Kevin Lehman, Mary Wallace. We can put them in the show notes if you do that. I can't remember what the title is about the firstborns. I'll have to get back to you on that. But there's not a ton. I'm telling you, there's less than a dozen books on this. Which is so simple. Overdo. And we need a more nuanced approach. So here's your chance. I know. I know. Trust me. It lays me down. It's on my mind constantly. Yeah. You have to. That would be so amazing. Okay. Is there anything? I feel like we could have talked about this for so long. But is there anything that we didn't touch on that you would like to add to the conversation? I don't think so. I don't think so. Okay. So we are going to wrap up with two questions I ask everybody I have on. And it doesn't have to do with anything about the topic today. So if you could give parents, mothers specifically one piece of advice, what would it be? Chill out. Chill out as my kids would say it's not that deep, just remember basically moms and dads. We basically have VIP front row season tickets to the greatest show on earth. And that is the development of your child. And really like we are just there to support. We are not there to be the main influence. They already are who they are. We just get to witness it on the day to day. So just enjoy the ride and not be so hard on yourselves about manipulating the development of this little human being. I love that. That's great advice. And then the last thing is if you could make a meal for your entire family that everyone would eat. That's relatively quick and easy. What would it be? Gosh, that's tough. Well, it's only tough because my 14 year old daughter has recently has gone vegetarian since Christmas. So she threw a wrench in the whole thing. I used to say taco soup, like taco soup is just a solid recipe that everybody loves, but it has ground beef in it. So now she's out on that. So I would probably say, I would probably say like teriyaki bowls, which is basically just rice, salmon and some vegetables, but she can do it without the salmon. That's a crowd pleaser. Yeah. There you go. Easy. Love it. Thank you so much, Dr. Jamison, for joining us today. This was awesome. I could have talked to you for hours and hours about this. I know really I'm like, oh, I need to talk to her more. Maybe I should have heard of it. Perfect. Oh my gosh. No, it was truly awesome. So thank you for taking the time to talk to us today. I really appreciate it. Well, thanks for reaching out any time. Thank you so much for hanging out with us today. All resources mentioned in this episode can be found in the show notes on lensianco.com. To continue these important conversations, head over to motherhood meets medicine on Instagram. Let me know what you learned from this episode and who you would love to hear from next. I always love getting feedback from you. If you're finding value in this podcast, please rate, review, subscribe and share with a friend. This will help us to reach even more women from around the world. I'll catch you next week. Until then, don't forget to find some time to unplug, unwind and have a little fun. [beeping] [beep]
