(upbeat music) - It's the Lockdown Podcast Network, your team every day. - Okay, you can do this. - I know, I know. Karvana makes it so convenient to sell your car. It's just hard to let go. My car and I have been through so much together. - But look, you already have a great offer from Karvana. That was fast. - Well, I know my lessons played in been my heart, and those questions were easy. - You're almost there, now to just accept the offer and schedule a pick up or drop off. - How'd you do it? How were you so strong in letting go of your car? - Well, I already made up my mind and Karvana's so easy. - Oh yeah, true. - And sold. - Go to karvana.com to sell your car the convenient way. - This is Philip Ross, the right to host a-- - On today's show, I'm joined by Philip Rossman Reich of Lockdown Magic. We talk about the playoff series that these two teams played back in April. A lot of talk about Evan Mobley, how he can be the key to the Cavs becoming a true championship contender in the Eastern Conference, and so much more straight ahead on today's Lockdown Cavs. (upbeat music) - You are locked on Cavs, your daily Cleveland Cavaliers podcast, part of the Lockdown Podcast Network, your team every day. - What's up, everybody? I'm Danny Cunningham. You might know me from my time covering the Cleveland Cavaliers, places like 92.3, The Fan, Cleveland Magazine, and a number of other stops along the way. Today's show, have a great one lined up, talked with Philip Rossman Reich, covers the magic for Lockdown Magic, here on the Lockdown Podcast Network, your team every day. We got into a lot of really good stuff. Talked a ton about Evan Mobley, talked a ton about Darius Garland, and Donovan Mitchell too. So I know this is a crossover episode, so there's a bunch of stuff about Orlando, which I think is good to know as a Cavs fan, considering I think these two teams are gonna be battling for playoff position, not just this year, but for years to come. I also do wanna say thank you for making Lockdown Cavs, your first lesson every day. You can check out the show, anywhere you get your podcast, Apple, Spotify, anywhere else, drop us a five-star rating. Leave a nice review as well. Also, make sure you check out the show on YouTube. Just search, locked on Cavs on YouTube. Hit that thumbs up button. If you're liking the video, click subscribe and hit the notification bell as well, so you know when the latest content from Lockdown Cavs is coming your way. Today's show, of course, is brought to you by Fandall. Now through September 22nd, Fandall is giving you a three-week free trial of NFL Sunday ticket thanks to YouTube and YouTube TV. All you have to do, bet $5. Any $5 bet from Fandall customers gets you a three-week free trial of NFL Sunday ticket from YouTube and YouTube TV. Visit fandall.com to get started. One last thing before I dive into this crossover episode with Phil, but had George Yang on the podcast on yesterday's show, very much hope you guys enjoyed that. If you miss that, go back, wherever you get your podcast, listen to it. I thought George had a lot of great stuff to say. Check it out on YouTube as well. That video was up. I do have another Cavs player coming on on Monday. I'm not gonna say who. I've put it out there one place who this Cavs player is. I will just say, it's a member of the starting five. When we talk about the ideal starting five for the Cavs, they'd only played 28 games together. It's one of those guys going to be unlocked on Cavs on Monday. You don't want to miss it. So make sure you've got that notification bell clicked. Make sure you're subscribed everywhere and you will get that first thing Monday morning. Without further ado, here is the lockdown Cavs lockdown magic crossover episode of lockdown magic. Join now by Danny Cunningham, the host, the new host of lockdown Cavs. If you're, if you watch lockdown magic, new face here, we've got a new host for lockdown Cavs over the summer. One of the many new acquisitions for the Cleveland Cavaliers. Danny, how are you doing today? - I'm good, man. I don't know if I would say the Cavs have many new acquisitions. It's been a quiet summer here. Big, big change that had coached, big change on lockdown Cavs, but very happy to be doing this. - Yeah, absolutely. And so I wanted to come in here. We're two weeks away from training camp starting. It's our last chance to really kind of look wistfully back at the 2024 season. It's been four plus months since the Magic and Cavs, seven game series. And I want to get your perspective a little bit on both. How these two teams push forward, but let's start by looking back. Four months later, what is kind of the lasting memory or lasting impact that you have from the Magic and Cavs first round series back in May? - So my lasting memory is that the Orlando Magic were a tougher test for the Cavs than I thought they would be. My lasting memory is Paulo Bankero, I think is going to be a star. And I don't think that's necessarily something like I learned in that series. Like I've always been high on him, but that was sort of like affirmation, if you will, that I just think Paulo Bankero was on a really high trajectory. But my lasting memory is also, Don of a Mitchell was able to put the Cavs on his back when they needed him to. And the Cavs were able to make a lot of plays. And it's also something, and I know that this was referenced by one of the Wagner brothers when he was on George Yang's podcast last week that home court advantage matters. Like if that game seven is played in what is at the Kia Center now in Orlando instead of at Rocket Mortgage Fieldhouse in Cleveland, I think we're probably talking about the Orlando Magic and what they did moving on into the second round. But because the Cavs were able to win enough regular season games and have that pivotal game seven played in Cleveland, I think that's a big reason why they moved on. As you look back at this, what do you remember about that series? - Yeah, I mean, the big thing for me from the Magic perspective was always about this is what the playoffs feel like. It's been a while since the Magic had a series where they actually could win. And just the amount of precision that's necessary to be successful in the playoffs, you kind of forget that. It's somewhat muscle memory, but you forget that. And to your point, like Don and Mitchell always seem to know exactly what his team needed. Like, Paolo was great, don't get me wrong. I will stand for Paolo as much as I can. But Paolo was just kind of like reaching grasping blindly to say like, this is what I got to do. Like I got to figure this out and figure out what I need to do. You know, a lot of us here in Orlando talk a lot about the game that Franz Wagner had in game seven, a one for 15 performance. Jalen Suggs, I think was two for 13 in that game. Don and Mitchell really stepped up his game in ways that I don't think the Magic quite understood. You know, I think about, I think it was game, I think it was game seven. When he had, we pass it all to Derry Scarlet. Garland had a terrible series. I think you'd agree with that. I mean, he had a nightmare of a season. Like it wasn't, couldn't find to that series. He was not the other player they needed him to be all year. - I remember entering that series and saying, Don Mitchell's gonna do what Don Mitchell's gonna do. Like he's gonna be Don Mitchell. Derry Scarlet was the guy I was really worried about. And I remember being at game five after the way that they played in Orlando and asking Cleveland importers like, what's up with Derry Scarlet? Like, I thought this was gonna be his series to kind of shine and really pull things out. But I believe it was game seven. When Don, you know, Garland missed that three. Mitchell got the rebound, kicked it right back out to him. And, you know, that was probably the moment that I was like, the Magic aren't coming back in this game. Like the, you know, game five Garland had, I think what, 21, 17 or 21 in the first half. And it was just like the precision of knowing when do I, as a superstar, when do I put myself into the game, make sure that we're getting that steady drum beat. And when do I defer to my teammates? That's something that the Magic didn't really know how to do. But like Donovan Mitchell, that's a true superstar. Like that, like he is everything that was advertised and more and all those, you know, I was one of the Magic fans that were like, the Magic aren't quite ready for a Donovan Mitchell type guy when he got traded to Cleveland and the Magic were one of the teams that people thought that might deal for him. That's why you get a Donovan Mitchell. Like that series, that moment, even game six, he comes up short, but he was really in Cleveland to stay in that game. That's, you know, that's when two stars come out and that's what I remember most about that series. - Yeah, I mean, I will never forget that game six because a lot of people here were honestly really upset with how that turned out. Where the Cavs go on the road, they get an all-time playoff performance and Cleveland is a city that has seen a lot of really good playoff performances by some guy that used to wear number 23 in this town, but they got an all-time playoff performance from Donovan Mitchell, scored 50 points. You know, he was the only guy, really that showed up in that game for the Cavs. I know Darius Garland had 21 so his box score numbers look okay, but I think a lot of people were mad that Donovan Mitchell put the team on his back the way he did and they couldn't get the job done. I will say, I was impressed with the way the Magic fought back in that series too because you think about how those first two games went in Cleveland where the Magic got, really I thought really took the first blow. - They looked like a team that never been there before. - Right, they looked like a team that it was their first playoff run and it was their first playoff run. But you get up off the mat and win the next two games in Orlando. I thought it was a really impressive thing. I thought that they would win game three but I thought that the Cavs would go back to Orlando, take care of business in game four, really put their stamp on the series by going up three one and I didn't think the Orlando Magic were a team that were going to be able to come back from down three one, especially in their first playoff run together. I just didn't think that was a possibility but the way they fought back and the way they evened up that series and then also winning a game six at home with your back to the wall. Like those are things that from a young team, even though they didn't win the series that I take away is okay, that's a really impressive group that I do think is going to have, the Easter conference is very crowded at the top but I think the Orlando Magic are not going to be a quiet team again for a really long time. - Yeah, like I remember between game three, like that's how I expected the series to go. I think I had the Cavs in like a hard six if that makes sense to people but like, I remember between game three and game four, I was talking to a lot of other magic reporters, a lot of even magic stackers. I was like, this series is going to turn on who wins the close game. And we all thought game four was going to be the close game where it's just like one play, they turns everything and you know, we get to game five and obviously Evan Mobley has that huge block and to me honestly, winning at home is winning at home but like the way the magic rallied after losing game five, the heartbreaking way that they lost game five and Cleveland, you know, winning game five the way that they won game five, that's usually the kind of play that ends a series for a young team and just kind of just, you know, discourages a young team and puts them, puts them away. And obviously that didn't happen, it showed a lot of metal that showed a lot of toughness from this young magic team. I think the unspoken factor in the series that people either, that certainly I think magic fans have kind of forgotten, maybe Cavs fans have too, what impact would Jared Allen's presence in those last three games have had in your opinion? - So, I think that's a really interesting question to think about because we obviously will never know the answer. - I thought Jared Allen was having a really good series before the games it is. - There's the best player in games one and two. - Right, right, he was, which was such a far cry from what he was in the previous post season against the Knicks. So a lot of people, despite Allen having an awesome year for Cleveland, a lot of people here went into that series against Orlando, what Jared Allen being a major question mark because, you know, he had the famous, the lights worked a little too bright for us, quote, after the Cavs lost to the Knicks, which everybody has heard by now. So he was awesome to start that series, but I also think his exit allowed the Cavs to play with a little bit more space. Now, I think defensively, it probably created a little bit more room for Orlando too because when Evan Mobley doesn't have to worry about defending the rim and he can sort of be that free safety on the defensive end of the floor and he can really only focus on Paulo Bencaro, which he did at times. I think that's when he's at his best that said he had, you know, late in that series, I thought Evan was tremendous defensively. Like you mentioned that block that he had in game five that won the game. I thought even though offensively he left some plays out there and left a lot to be desired, I thought we really saw him shine on the defensive end of the floor. Even if his box score numbers don't look great, I thought in each of those games that Jared Allen wasn't out there, he made huge plays for the Cavs on the defensive end of the floor. So I do think you could maybe make the case that the Cavs win that series in six games if Jared Allen plays in game six, I don't know, but I also look at, you know, he played in games three and four. Yeah, in game four, he was a little beat up, especially in the second half and the magic still found a way to win there. So I don't know that ultimately it changes that series too much. I will say maybe the Cavs get another game off Boston in the second round if they have Jared Allen healthy. Well, obviously never know that either, but I don't know that it changes the magic series too much. - Yeah, and it's a really interesting thing too because Allen was so dominant, but also the magic started Jonathan Isaac et cetera, which was a move that I know I questioned a little bit at the time, even if it made some sense, you know, well, we don't know how hard Wendell Carter was during that series. But, you know, obviously injuries are part of the playoffs and part of what you have to do. And obviously that greatly affected the series with the Celtics as well. To that point then, let's put the series to rest. Let's put it in the past. Let's talk a little bit about how the magic and Cavs compete in the East moving forward. We'll get to that coming up here in just a moment. - But first today's show brought to you by Fandall. You've heard me talking about Fandall a ton. Why have I talked about Fandall a ton? Well, I have because Fandall is, of course, America's number one sports book. They've got everything you need. It's another big NFL Sunday coming up this week. You've got prime time games. You've got the Cleveland Browns, you've got Tampa, you've got Miami, you've got all the teams playing this weekend in football. Fandall is the place that you want to be. - Yeah, yeah, Jaguars too. 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Now to just accept the offer and schedule a pick up or drop off. - How'd you do it? How were you so strong in letting go of your car? - Well, I already made up my mind and Karvana is so easy. - Yeah, true. And sold. - Go to Karvana.com to sell your car the convenient way. - We want to thank you for making locked on magic and locked on caps or locked on caps. I can't both be, I guess. You're first listen of the day for your next listen. Enjoy the locked on NBA podcast. There is no off-season in the NBA and that off-season is running short and locked on NBA provides you daily basketball analysis from national and local experts in 30 minutes or less. No one keeps you as informed and entertained as locked on the NBA. Available on YouTube or wherever you get podcasts. It's all part of the locked on podcast network. Your team every day. So Danny, obviously it is a new year. And I think a lot of us are expecting the East to be super competitive. It's not just that the Cavs have a new coach in Kenney Atkinson, which we'll talk about in a minute. It's not just that the magic at a continuous call will hope. It's that Paul George is now on the Sixers. Macau Bridges is on the Knicks. The Bucks have a full year, a full off-season with Doc Rivers. The Celtics are the Celtics and still really, really good. The magic in Cavs obviously with a four and five seed. And I think most projections that we're seeing around the league suggest that the magic and the Cavs will not hold on to those positions. So let's start with the big question then. How do the Cavs stay in that top four? How do the Cavs break into the title contender tier of the Eastern Conference? - So I think that there are two very different answers to that question. I think the way they stay in the top four is if they stay healthy this year, their starting lineup of Donovan Mitchell, Darius Garland, Max Truce, Evan Mobley and Jared Allen only played 28 games together last year. That's not a very large number for your ideal starting five. Obviously Darius Garland had a nightmare of a season that with that fractured jaw had like a thumb wrist injury early on in the season. Had some off the court stuff going on that really was unfortunately pulling his attention away, I think from the basketball floor that pulled him down a little bit. If he just has a season reminiscent of his first year with Donovan Mitchell, I think the Cavs will be in a really good spot. So if they stay healthy, I think in part of it is by playing that two big style, I think they're a really difficult team to prepare for because on a Tuesday night in February, they're a hard matchup because you might have to play a different way than you're used to playing and that can be a hard change of pace in the midst of an NBA season. Now, if they stay healthy, I think they're a team that should win 50 plus games. If you win 50 plus games in the Eastern Conference, historically, you are a top four seat. Like I do not believe there's been a team in the East that has won 50 games and finished outside of the top four in like 30 years in the Eastern Conference. So just speaking from history, and I do think one of those other teams we mentioned, whether it's, and I doubt it's going to be Boston, but between New York, Philly, Milwaukee, one of those teams is going to have things go wrong and not have as good of a regular season as we anticipate. And all three of those teams, I think have had significant injury histories to deal with, particularly Milwaukee. I mean, Chris Middleton is vital to them and he had surgery on not one, but both of his ankles this offseason. Like Milwaukee is a team I'm not buying at the top of the East. As far as championship contention, that I think is on Evan Mobley. If Evan Mobley takes a leap forward and becomes an offensive force that is equal to what he is defensively, that is the key to the Cavs becoming a true championship contender. Because if that's the case, Evan Mobley becomes your best player. And if Donovan Mitchell is your second best player, I think you have a championship contending team. I don't know that that's going to happen. That's putting a lot of pressure on Evan. That's putting a lot on new Cavs head coach, Kenny Atkinson. But I think that is how they go from a team that if everything breaks the right way, can be in the conference finals, to a team that if everything breaks the right way can be hoisting Larry O'Brien trophy. Now, I'll flip that around on you. Those two same questions. How do the magic jump from four or five matchup to maybe being an even in that two, three zone? And how do they become a championship team? - Yeah, I mean, I think what was so interesting about the matchup in the playoffs was that these are still like very relatively young teams. Like Donovan Mitchell's a veteran. He's been there like he gave the stability, but like Evan Mobley, Darius Garland, Jared Allen are all fairly young players. And so it's tempting to look at playoff failure or playoff results and say, you know, and say this is how we're gonna judge these guys or this is it, this is the ceiling. And I think Cleveland showed a ton of discipline this summer, not trading Darius Garland and not kind of breaking their core up. And then we'll ask maybe a few questions about that decision here in a minute. But for the magic, it's very much the same. Paloban Caro is 21 years old, still on his rookie contract. He has to get better. You know, he has to be more efficient. You know, I think he had what nine turnovers in the first two games of the series. And that was a big, big thing. That was him making mistakes, learning how to be a of the main playmaker on a playoff team with defenses tailored specifically to the things he likes to do. He's got to obviously make more shots. He's got to be a better passer. He's got to do everything better. It's surprisingly simple. Franz Wagner had a great series, honestly, like take game seven out. And it was a pretty strong series for Franz Wagner. But he's got to be more efficient as a three-point shooter. He's got to continue to diversify and grow his game. You know, same with Jalen Suggs. The magic, I think, made one of the adjustments in the series was games three and four. Jalen Suggs was playing a little bit more point guard, setting Palo up a little bit more instead of always having Palo with the ball in his hands. He's going to be asked to do that kind of full-time nap. You know, you mentioned Cleveland's starting lineup, Orlando's starting group last year of Jalen Suggs, Gary Harris, Franz Wagner, Palobain Carroll and Wendell Carter played only 300 total minutes together last year. So injuries were a big story for the magic too. But it took half the season for the magic to really kind of find their starting lineup. And that group was a plus eight or nine, plus a plus 12, I think, points for one of the possessions. So they found something and arguably, you know, they made one of the biggest for agency moves of the summer. Contanias Caldwell Pope is a better version of Gary Harris. And Gary Harris had a bad series, like he is a better shooter than what he showed in that series. Contanias Caldwell Pope did not have a good playoffs either. Shot 40% from three in three of the last four seasons. His two championship rings, two his name as a key contributor. That's someone that I think the magic bank can elevate and enhance what they were already doing well last year. So like Cleveland, it's still so much about, can their young players be better? Can their young players get better? And you know, and Cleveland, I think, has proven this now that they've done it twice. You know, everyone I talked to in Cleveland kind of said, yeah, Orlando is having the playoffs. We thought Cleveland was going to have last year, like maybe a competitive first round loss where they learned something, but they, you know, they clearly cement themselves. Well, Cleveland last year did it again. Like they got back, they were the four seed, they won their series. Orlando's got to prove they can do it again. And I think that is an underrated thing for young teams to learn just because you're starting a new season doesn't mean you're guaranteed to have the success you have last year. Orlando's got to show that they can do it again. And that's going to be, I think, a big challenge for this, the still very, very young group. - Right, I think that it's very possible that they're on a similar trajectory as the Cavs were, like the Cavs first season with Donovan Mitchell. And I know Mitchell came into Cleveland, much more established and in an older position than Orlando star in Palo Alto. But I see them on a similar timeline to where I think, last year, and I'm curious to know if you think I'm wrong here, but I would call what last year was for the Orlando magic, a rousing success. Like I think that the magic and magic fan should be very happy with the fact that, and you're never happy about losing in the playoffs, especially when you have an 18 point lead in game seven. - Yeah. - But I think that they should be, when you can kind of take a step back and look at the years a whole, I think they should be very happy about that. But then the goals get readjusted in, okay, if that same thing happens again, it's not the same success that it was the year before. - Yeah, and to that point, like, yes, like the locker room in game seven, like I was standing outside the locker room when the players walked back in, a lot of heads down, a lot of, you know, like it's hard when the season ends. But by the time they got back to Orlando and did eggs interviews the next day, everyone was like, you know, what we accomplished this season was great. We're eager to do it again. We're hungry to do it again. You know, we clearly can see what we need to be successful at this level. Like there was, like, typically you lose the biggest lead in a game seven until the Denver Minnesota series. You're depressed, like that's like historically bad. Like that's not something that you're happy about the day after, but I think that the team looks at the larger scope of this is like people, like I think my viewers hate me for saying this all the time. Last year was not about last year. It's about what it built for the next two, three, four, five years with this team together and hoping that they continue to build on what they've accomplished. So it's, you know, I think there's a longer range view of what this team is trying to accomplish. We've hinted a little bit at some of the changes with these two teams. Cleveland, obviously, while not making a huge change on the roster made a big change last year. We'll get to that coming up here in just a moment. - Well, we got a minute and I'm gonna buy that truck I've been wanting. - Wait, don't you need, like, weeks to shop for a car? - I don't. Carvonda makes it super convenient to find exactly what I want. - Hold up. You're buying a car on your phone? Isn't that more of a laptop thing? - You can shop wherever you want. I like to do my research, read reviews, compare models. Plus, Carvonda has thousands of options. How'd you decide on that truck? - Because I like it. - Oh, that is a great reason. Go to Carvonda.com to sell your car the convenient way. - So, Danny, you mentioned it when I asked you what the calves need to compete a little bit about how the starting lineup for Cleveland was a little bit wonky all year. You know, I think one of my takeaways from the series and one of the reasons why I thought they might trade Darius Garland or trade or try and mix something up, is it always felt like they weren't at their best with their main five, with their main four players on the floor together. Obviously, when we were in Cleveland, we could all feel it. Game five, you could hear booze for J.B. Bickerstaff. Game seven, you could absolutely hear the Rocket Mortgage Fieldhouse crowd booing J.B. Bickerstaff. What impact do you anticipate Kenny Atkinson having on this team? Because changing coaches is a big deal. Kenny Atkinson's a very, very good coach. I think he is a great hire. What is his impact going to be on the calves and their ability to compete? - So I think that offensively they're going to look different. I expect them to look better on that on the floor than they did under J.B. Bickerstaff. I think when Bickerstaff was initially raised up from the lead assistant to the head coach when John Beeline was resigned or let go or whatever happened a few years back. So I knew he was the right man for the job, but I think that job was entirely different than the job that it is now. The calves needed to revamp the offense and it's not an easy task because I don't think all their pieces offensively are a perfect fit. I don't think that a lot of people believe that. There are people inside their organization that do believe that they can make it work offensively. Kenny Atkinson's going to have a chance to make that work. I expect them to play at a faster pace on that end of the floor. They have been near the bottom of the league in pace. And then you look at what Kenny Atkinson did as head coach in Brooklyn, his teams there, albeit structured differently, were in three of his four years were top 10 in pace and the fourth year they were 11th. So I do think that they're going to play faster. They're going to try and maximize Evan Mobley as well. Like he is the key to all of this. If Evan Mobley can be great, the calves are going to be a really hard team to beat because that guy is oozing potential. He has a lot of skills that I don't think have been necessarily tapped into by the previous coaching staff. And Kenny Atkinson is known as someone who can develop guys. And the one other thing that I look at is he's been around some big guys that have added a three point shot to their arsenal when he's been there. You date back when he was on Mike Boonhulls or staff with the Atlanta Hawks. That's when Al Horford started shooting threes. Guess what Al Horford is still in the league in part because of that. Then you look ahead to when he was with Brooklyn, Brook Lopez was not a three point shooter in the least bit before then. And then under Kenny Atkinson, he'd become out of nowhere a volume three point shooter. And guess what? He's still in the league because of that. I'm not saying Evan Mobley is going to have that sort of transformation. But I do think that is a big key to it and something I expect to see a little bit more of with Kenny Atkinson in charge. - Yeah. And like look, like Cleveland's defense is good. And Mobley and Allen are going to keep that part to them. So I think tweaking the offense is definitely great. And you know, I think keep, you know, you mentioned the injuries earlier. I think people always forget like when Cleveland was fully healthy, like that was the second or third best team in the East. Like it's like health is, you know, health is health. Like you can't always control it. But that is a very, very good basketball team when they're clicking on all cylinders. Unfortunately, just we haven't seen it enough. And you know, again, like this is a point I keep making to everybody. The two through the seven seat in the East is probably going to be decided by like three games. So the difference between a really like, like for, or even for Orlando, like the difference between, the difference between the five seed that, you know, it's going to be the same situation Orlando was in last year. Where on the last day of the season, Orlando needed to beat Milwaukee to be the five seed. And if they would have lost that game, they would have been going to Miami for the play internment. Like that's like I am expecting the East to be that tight again. Like it's going to be 46 to 51 wins. It's going to be your two through two through seven seed to be perfectly honest. And it could be even tighter than that. Cause these are all really good teams. Like, you know, we don't need to get into all the other teams, but like New York's still really good. They have all these teams of flaws, maybe fatal flaws, but New York's still really good. Indiana's still really good. Philadelphia still has MB. We can't count them out as long as MB is healthy. Milwaukee's will be honest. Yeah, and Paul George now, you know, all of these teams have like sure-fire all star players, if not two in a lot of cases. It's going to be a big battle in the East. And I don't think success is necessarily guaranteed. You got to like scratch and claw for every bit of it. Right. I could not agree more. And the thing that I'm most curious to watch with a magic go because I'm very high on the magic. And what I'm curious from your perspective is, what are realistic goals for Palabankaro this year? Because like, I think that they are a team that if Palabankaro continues on the trajectory that he's on, they should be in the conversation for, and I know it's so tight, but like I could see them, I see a world in which the Orlando magic could finish second in the East. So what are expectations for him specifically? So to that point, the magic we're second in the East with a week to go in the season. So it's not that far from- Right. The, I think the goal for Palabankaro is get him to like 25 points per game. Like that's a like statistical plateau. It's not necessarily, it doesn't necessarily mean anything, but get to 25 points per game and continue to improve his efficiency. I mean, that's been the biggest criticism of him from national media, from people who are just trying, not, I don't want to say put him down, but are kind of shooing away his contributions to the team. Like, look, the advanced stats aren't good on Palab. He takes a lot of mid-range shots. He takes, you know, he turns the ball over a ton. You know, he's just got to reign all that in. Like, you know, we talk about how bad Cleveland's offense is, Orlando had the worst offense of any team that made the postseason last year. They're 23rd in the league in offensive rating. They haven't been outside the bottom 10 in offensive rating since Dwight Howard in 2012. That is the stat that we need to get rid- That is the stat that the magic are desperately trying to get rid of. Last year I- Nice streak. I know, it's the longest, I think, since they started recording offensive rating. Oh my goodness. It's bad. Um, the big accidentally they have a good offense. No, not even close. Um, but I think a big reason for that is they were 28th in the league in turnover rate. Like, they're not a high-volume three-point shooting team, but they can make threes on occasion as they showed in some of the games in the playoff series. They can miss a bunch of threes as they also showed in some of the games in the playoff series. But reducing turnovers is going to be a big thing. And for me, when I watch Pal, and it's just getting more shot opportunities. Um, so when I'm watching Palo this year, he improved all of his efficiency metrics year over year, from rookie year to sophomore year. And so, I think what the magic are hoping to see is to take that and leap into like all NBA category. Like, he's getting his max contract next summer. It's, that's not the concern. But if the magic are going to be competitive at the championship level, they, you gotta have an all NBA guy. And it's a little bit of a chicken or an egg problem. Like, are you an all NBA player because you're on a championship level team? Are you a championship level team because you have an all NBA guy? The answer is yes. Um, and so, like Franz, love Franz to death. He's the, he's the analytics darling. There are still things, obviously you need to be a mediocre three-point shooter. I'm not even saying good three-point shooter anymore, after one year. But the magic need a guy that elevates that all NBA level. And that's asking a lot. And it's not necessarily something that you can like kind of, you kind of know it when you see it. Like Donna Mitchell is an all NBA guy. Like he doesn't necessarily need to be on the all NBA team anymore to be an all NBA guy. Donna Mitchell, you know, like I said earlier, when I entered the series, I was just like Donna Mitchell's going to do it. Donna Mitchell's going to do it. You can't stop him. Like people ask me, why are the magic putting Gary Harris on Donna Mitchell? It's because, you know, you have a better chance of slowing down Darius Garland than you do Donna Mitchell. The last thing you want is Darius Garland going off. So put sugs on him, lock him up, make his life miserable, and you might have a chance. Donna Mitchell will beat good defenses. That's what he does. That's the kind of player they need Paolo to become. And he showed hints of that, I think throughout the playoffs, which was far more encouraging and far more, I think indicative of where Paolo is going, than some of the efficiency stats that everyone is kind of pointing to to criticize him. I think, I really thought like the playoffs kind of showed, Paolo's going to answer all those questions pretty well. So, you know, it's not going to take, you know, Paolo averaged 22 again last year. It's not going to take much to get him at 25. It's like one more three, make two more free throws. He's a 70%, you know, little bit better than 70% free throw shooter. If he gets to the line eight times, he's making five. Make six or seven of those eight, instead of five of those eight, not only you get those extra points, which helped you, but now you're a 25, 26, 27 point per game guy. I think Paolo can get there very, very easily. It's just taking advantage of those opportunities. And, you know, it's, it's simple. It's just, just get better. Like, you just, you know, it's individuals getting better. It's not necessarily anything super strategic. It's make your open shots, get to the line, make your free throws, don't turn the ball over. It's, basketball's not that hard in the end. - Easy game, right? - Easy game, super easy. The last thing I want to ask to close things up. - It's, I feel like we avoided all the hard feeling stuff. We saw the Wagner Brothers on George and Yang's podcast. I've never exited a seven game series where both teams and both fan bases are just like very cool with each other. Like it really didn't feel like, it doesn't feel like there's much animosity. I know we had the game four kind of dust up with Darius Garland and Jalen Suggs, but like it, I've never like exited a seven game series where I'm just like, I'm cool with those guys. Like, like go, go, like usually I want that team to lose the next round. I was like, go be Boston guys, y'all deserve it. - You know, I don't know because in dating back to the previous, and I know the Cavs were in the playoffs the year before and lost to the Knicks, but dating back to the previous era of Cavs playoff basketball, it was almost as if the playoffs didn't start until June when the Warriors came to town. Like that's what it was. So like I think Cavs fans were cool about Raptors fans and Raptors fans are like, I hate the Cavs so much because that's what they ran into every year. And I think Cavs fans were cool with Atlanta Hawks fans and Atlanta Hawks are like, you know, have the Jeff T got a two work, not this year. No, you got swept again. - Yeah, you got swept again. - Maybe, maybe Pacers fans, maybe Pistons fans. Like in 2016, I think the Cavs swept the Pistons in the first round. I think Detroit was kind of, they were a 44 win team that was happy to be there, happy to almost win game four. So like maybe that's the answer, but it's weird because Cavs fans, I don't think necessarily understand or know and in fairness, they've not experienced what the journey is like in terms of building a team because the Cavs went from really good with LeBron to really bad win LeBron left and then they were instantly really, really good again when LeBron came back. Like there was not a building process. So I think it's a really interesting thing LeBron is a building process. - Right, like he was just the cheat code. Like the T1, I think they were 33 and 49 in the 2013, 2014 season and then LeBron comes back and they're the number two seed in the East and no one can stop them except for Kevin, love having a dislocated shoulder and Kyrie Irving's kneecap being fractured. Like that, I firmly believe that is what held them back from winning a championship that year. So it's really interesting. Have you experienced a playoff series like this? - No, no, I mean, for Magic fans, it's been a while, it's been like a decade. So we were like very, very happy to be there. Like, a series that we actually had a chance to win, I've definitely not experienced something like this. Like, you know, I still don't like Boston for 2010. I still just, you know, like I'm better with Jackson Gatlin of lockdown rockets now, but like I still, I'm still bitter about the 1995 NBA finals. Like I'm convinced that Michael Jordan didn't come out of retirement. The Magic would have the 1996 championship banner hanging in the Kia Center. Shaq may not have left 'cause they won a championship. I don't know. I don't know. I'm willing to say it. You know, like even being in the building, I didn't sense any like 2009 like vestiges at all, vestiges at all, you know, like people being bitter about 2009 still, which I would understand if you are and don't like seeing that Jersey around. But it was, you know, it was a great series. I would, you know, I don't think the NBA would like to see another one of these series because the scores were so low and we all, and like everyone says they want 90s basketball back until they get it. - And so they have to watch it. - So they have to watch it. But, you know, I think this, it was a great series. I think both teams got tested in the ways they need to get tested and, you know, you flip a coin, you know, again, it felt like a series where you flip a coin, you play another two games to try and find another winner and nine instead of seven and it could go the other way. It was that tight. - Yeah, absolutely. Couldn't agree more. - Danny, I want to thank you for hopping on and helping preview the Cavs, talk a little bit about the magic talk. Look back wistfully at a fun two weeks between the magic and Cavs. As always, I'll see you in the conference finals this year. - Yeah, I can't wait. See you in late May. Thank you again for making lockdown Cavs your first listen today and every day. Hope you enjoyed the week of content here on lockdown Cavs. Like I mentioned at the start, a Cavs starter going to be on the episode on Monday. Monday morning, first thing, video go up on YouTube. Podcast will go up wherever you get your podcast. You're not going to want to miss this. It's a really great interview with one of the five Cavs starters. I'm not going to tell you who. If you are on a certain Cavs fan page, you might know who it is. I let a little teaser out there, but make sure you're subscribed to everything. Again, Apple, Spotify, anywhere you get your podcast, check us out on YouTube. If you are watching this video, hit that thumbs up button, click the notification bell and make sure you're subscribed and it will be back Monday with another player interview. A prime member. You can listen to this lockdown podcast ad free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. (upbeat music)
