Has Donovan Mitchell been playing too heavy of a minutes load for the Cleveland Cavaliers? What do you think the starting lineup should be for the Cavs this season?
On today’s episode of Locked On Cavs, Danny Cunningham (@RealDCunningham) of 92.3 The Fan and Cleveland Magazine discusses if the starting lineup for the Cleveland Cavaliers should change this year, if the starters will play fewer minutes under Kenny Atkinson than they did under J.B. Bickerstaff and how big the ideal rotation should be.
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It's the Lockdown Podcast Network, your team every day. On today's show, the rotation for the Cavs this season should be bigger than it was last season, but the starting lineup shouldn't be changed under Kenny Atkinson. We're going to talk about all that and more straight ahead on today's Lockdown Cavs. What's up everybody, I'm Danny Cunningham. You might know me from my time covering the Cleveland Cavaliers, places like 92.3 The Fan, Cleveland Magazine, and a number of other stops along the way. I want to say thank you for making Lockdown Cavs your first listen every day. You can check the show out anywhere you get your podcast, check us out Apple, Spotify, anywhere else. Drop us a five-star rating, leave us a nice review as well. Make sure you're subscribed to I've got some really cool interviews coming your way this week. I don't want to get ahead of it, but I'm very excited about what is going to be hitting your feeds later this week. Make sure you click that subscribe button wherever you get your podcast. Also check us out on YouTube, just search Lockdown Cavs. If you're watching this video right now, hit that thumbs up button for me. Make sure you're subscribed and click the notification bell as well, so you get the latest Lockdown Cavs content as soon as it is put out there. Of course, a proud part of the Lockdown podcast network. Your team every day, today's show, of course, is sponsored by GameTime. Download the GameTime app, create an account, and use code "LockdownNBA" for $20 off your first purchase. Again, that's code "LockdownNBA" for $20 off your first purchase. So the Cleveland Cavaliers, we are counting down to training camp. We're getting closer and closer, media day is less than two weeks away. The first training camp practice for the Cavs is two weeks from today at IMG Academy in Brinton, Florida. I will be there. I cannot wait to cover training camp down in Florida. I cannot wait to see what this team looks like. I do suspect there are going to be a lot of things that look the same. Now, of course, you're thinking, of course, things are going to look the same for the most part. The roster hasn't really changed, and you would be correct, obviously. We know at this point, the only player that is on his standard NBA contract that is new to this organization is Jalen Tyson. Everybody else was here last year, but that doesn't mean things are going to be exactly as they were when JB Bickerstaff was the head coach compared to Kenny Atkinson. So the place I want to start this conversation is with the starting lineup, because we're going to talk about how deep the rotation should be, how many guys should come off the bench. But I don't think that conversation truly began until you flush out what the starting lineup is going to be. So last year, the ideal starting lineup for the Cavs was Donovan Mitchell, Darius Garland, Max Strus, Evan Mobley, and Jared Allen. Those five guys, when everyone was healthy, that was the ideal starting group for the Cavs. That group played in a total of 28 games together, which is on the lower end for starting lineups of good teams, or at least I should stay the lower end of ideal starting lineups for good teams. Obviously, everyone's going to have a starting lineup every game. Now, you will have some teams like the Dallas Mavericks who made a big trade midway through the season, dealt with some injuries as well. I know they obviously went on and they run to the finals. They had a few fewer games for their ideal starting lineup, but part of that's because they made a pretty big trade near the trade deadline in February, so that kind of skews that number a little bit. But the Cavs are on the lower end with just 28 games shared between the five guys that they want to be their first five every night. That is a little bit of a low number. That group played 368 minutes together, which really is not a giant figure. That's not a lot of minutes to be played for starting lineup. You'll look at Boston's starting lineup, their ideal five of Drew Holiday, Derek White, Jalen Brown, Jason Tatum, and Chris Desporzingis in that group played more than double the minutes that the Cavs starting lineup did. Like that is how good teams are able to operate, and this, of course, is nobody's fault that the Cavs were that low, but Cavs just dealt with some unfortunate injury luck last year, where they had several guys in their starting lineup. Say everybody except for Jared Allen missed significant time during the regular season last year. Jared Allen missed the first, I believe, it was four games of the regular season, and then did miss obviously a chunk of games in the playoffs, but he was really the main state in the starting lineup. We know Evan Mobley missed six weeks, Darius Garland missed six weeks, Max Drew's missed some time with an injury down the stretch last year, down on Mitchell missed some time, down the stretch last season. So really everybody except for Jared Allen was affected by injury and forced out of the lineup for at least some period of time. Now, in the 368 minutes that group played together, they were a plus 1.4. That was their net rating per 100 possessions. They scored 1.4 more points than they allowed, which is not a great number. That is not something that is what we should expect from them this year, but I do think part of that can be pointed to one, the Cavs got off to a bit of a slow start last year. You know, I think there were four and six in their first 10 games. They were 12 and 13, I believe it was in December when Darius Garland and Evan Mobley both exited the lineup for six weeks, and then we know they went on the run then, but I do think that slow start, the fact that Max Drew's was a new piece that was being added into this starting lineup. I think a lot of those things kind of combined into this group not meshing as well as a lot of people myself included expected it to. I do not believe that is a referendum on what this group can be this year and in years forward. I don't think the starting lineup should change. I don't. I think Max Drew's is a really good starting small forward for what the Cavs have. I don't see a better option as the starting small forward right now on the roster. I think that is something that is very important to say. I don't see a better option than Max Drew's. I think he should be the starter. Now, let's get back to some of those inconsistencies in the starting lineup. I went back and looked through the game logs before recording. I actually, I do some prep for the show, believe it or not. I went back through the game logs. I believe that seven consecutive games was the most games in a row that this starting lineup started together. That's a really low number. It is hard for an NBA team for an NBA starting lineup to find a rhythm when they don't have a long stretch playing together where everyone's available, where everyone's in the starting lineup. That's a difficult task to say, hey, we understand this group hasn't been together a ton. We understand this group hasn't played together as a five man unit at all before this season, but it needs to be awesome right away. That just doesn't really happen. It doesn't. Now, I think it still could have been better. I think that they need to shoot the ball better. I think that was a big reason why this lineup did not achieve the success that a lot of people, again, myself included thought that it would. I don't think Max true's had the shooting season that he expected to have that he expects to have moving forward this year and that a lot of people expected him to have that said he did a lot of really good things that made this lineup work. That's part of the reason why I do think he should be the starting small forward again. Now, let's play the other side of this. If he's not the starting small for it because I don't think the other four spots really are up for debate. Now, there are some people out there that don't believe Jared Allen and Evan Mobley should both be in the starting lineup. I think that's crazy. I think that's really a nuts thing to think that two of your best players shouldn't be starting together. They're not a perfect fit and I don't know how viable it is for those two long term, but right now you have to have both of them starting together. They are two of the four best players on the team. There's zero debate about that. They should be in the starting lineup together. I know there are some people that feel similarly about Darius Garland and Donovan Mitchell and I would say the same exact thing. I think maybe they're a little bit better fit in the back court than Mobley and Allen are in the front court, but they're not perfect. They're not a perfect fit. I think they can have success and I think they should be starting together. That leads you to the small forward spot because Max truce is of those players and I understand Evan Mobley is still playing this year on his rookie deal, but he's also going to be the cheapest player in that starting lineup and I do think that matters a little bit. Now, that said, who are the options to replace Max truce in the starting lineup? Well, you're looking at, I think, Castle Vert, Isaac Okoro, and I think Dean Wade. I think those are right now the three options. Maybe at a certain point down the road, we can start talking about Jalen Tyson and we will be talking about Jalen Tyson coming up in segment number two of today's lockdown calves, but I think those are the other options as far as starters go. I don't think any of those guys fit this group as well as Max truce does. I don't think there's a case for Castle Vert. We've seen that before. It does work well in spurts, but I think ultimately the calves are in better shape if Castle Vert is replacing one of Darius Garland or Donovan Mitchell off the bench. I think that's better for the team and I think that's better for Keras because we have seen Castle Vert is at his best when he can be in attack mode right away. And if he is the third ball handler in a group, it's hard to be in attack mode. It's not something that he needs to have the basketball in his hands. That is who he is as a basketball player. And playing alongside Darius Garland and Donovan Mitchell together, having that triumvirate on the floor, makes it difficult for the basketball to find Keras Vert. As often as Keras Vert needs the basketball early in the game. And I think it's no coincidence most of Keras Vert's really good games that we have seen on the calves have come with him in the starting lineup because he's able to get going early and then carry that momentum later on into the game. I think that's something that very much does matter for him. I think the calves are their best when he is able to find that rhythm as soon as he gets on the floor and not have to take a backseat to somebody else. That's where I think the calves would prefer things. I know Keras Vert has talked about that being his preferred role with the way this roster is constructed. It's not that he's not good enough to be a starter. It's that just for him to play his best, this is the role that he needs to be in. And then Isaac Corro is another option here that's worth talking about. We're going to talk about Isaac Corro whether or not he should be in the starting lineup. That's next right here on lockdown calves. Today's show is brought to you by Game Time. Time is the place where I go when I need tickets. Right now, the Cleveland Guardians, they are on their way to the playoffs. They have an opportunity today to clinch a playoff berth. If you're listening to this Tuesday, when the episode comes out, the Cleveland Guardians can clinch a playoff berth tonight with a win over Minnesota. They need some help elsewhere. But I believe their magic number as I record this Monday night is down to two. You want to be in attendance to watch this team clinch a playoff berth. Don't you? You probably don't have tickets as you're sitting there listening to this or watching this on YouTube. So what should you do? You should fire up that Game Time app. You should use code locked on NBA. 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Game Time is the place that you should be going to. So fire up that Game Time app. Create an account. Use code locked on NBA for $20 off your first purchase. Terms do apply again. Download the Game Time app. Create an account. Use code locked on NBA. That's L-O-C-K-E-D-O-N NBA for $20 off your first purchase. Like I said, terms do apply. What time is it? It's Game Time. Hi. I'm Jake from Locked On. There's a lot to say when buying a new home or car, but really the first words you want to say are, "Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there, and trust me, as someone named Jake, that is a fact." That's the phrase that will help you feel good knowing that you have people who could help you find the right coverage for the things you want to protect. Insurance doesn't need to be complicated with a State Farm agent. With so many coverage options, it feels good knowing you can find what fits you because your situation is unique, and State Farm is there to help you feel supported with the coverage you need for your car, your home, and even boats, motorcycles, RVs, and other things that matter to you. And when you need ways to get help, don't yell or be angry because State Farm gives you options there, too. In person or on the phone with your local agent or on State Farm.com or their award-winning app, State Farm lets you do things your way. So when you need help protecting the things that matter most, remember to say, "Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there." So as far as the starting lineup goes, I don't think Isaac Okoro should be in it. I'm going to tell you why coming up in just a second, but you're making lockdown calves your first listen every day. I very much appreciate you for doing that. For your second listen every day, go check out Lockdown MBA. Lockdown MBA has everything you need league-wide from our national and local experts talking basketball because the offseason we know it never stops. Well, the offseason actually is coming to an end because training camp is right around the corner. There's no place you want to go to get your fix. You want to know about more than just the Cleveland Cavaliers that I'm bringing you every day. They're bringing you everything across the league every day. So check out Lockdown MBA wherever you get your podcasts, also available on YouTube. And of course, probably the Lockdown podcast network, your team every day. Isaac Okoro should not be in the starting lineup because I think he is better served to be in smaller doses. I'm not saying he shouldn't be playing 25 minutes a game and we are going to talk about minute allocation coming up in just a little bit on today's show. But I think Isaac Okoro and a little bit of smaller doses is going to be the best thing for him and for this team. You can plug him on the other team's most dangerous perimeter player. I think that offensively, I think that he can have a little bit of a bigger impact when he's playing with only one ball dominant guard as opposed to two. I think he can have a little bit of a bigger impact, maybe even have a little bit more space in the corners if it's only Darius Garland or Donovan Mitchell on the floor. And this also allows Isaac Okoro to play at the shooting guard, which is a little bit more of his natural position. You can make the case the same thing is true for Max Drews that he's more of a natural two than a natural three. But I think Isaac Okoro is just a little bit smaller. I know he's a better defender than Max Drews, but he's just a little bit smaller than Drews. I think he's more of a natural two and bringing him in for one of Garland or Mitchell and having him be able to play great defense when he's on the floor, knock down a few threes, have some really good cuts to the basket, get out and run in transition too. That's why I do think that he is a really good pairing with Donovan Mitchell particularly. I think that he is a good pairing with Mitchell because Mitchell has grown as a ball distributor. I think we saw that last year when Darius Garland was out. This allows Okoro to play great defense, be put in position to be successful. I think the cap should be running a little bit more with Donovan Mitchell on the floor too. That tempo with Mitchell I believe will be a little bit higher. The pace I should say will be a little bit higher with Donovan Mitchell on the floor and Darius Garland on the bench than vice versa. I think the caps will be a little bit slower when Garland is running the show solo than when Mitchell is running the show solo. I think that open floor attitude, getting out into transition, fast break points, playing a little bit more up tempo. I think that's something that could be really good for Isaac Okoro. Then the other option is Dean Wade, which I like Dean Wade, but he's just not somebody that I think you can count on to be available all the time. Dean Wade is a perfect fit for what this team. I've called him one of the most irreplaceable players on this basketball team because the cap just don't have anybody that replicates what he does at his size. They have a lot of guards, they have a lot of bigs, they don't have a lot of wings. Dean Wade is that guy, but the injury bug just bites him a little bit too often to find that consistency. So I do think Max Drew says the correct answer here. I would be very surprised if the caps go away from that. Now what does the rest of the rotation look like? It's not just those five guys that are going to be playing basketball for the Cavs. It's going to be much more than that. Previously when JB Bickerstaff was the head coach, when I first started on the daily beat aspect covering this team when Donovan Mitchell arrived, one of the things I was really curious to learn from Bickerstaff is just how large ideally is an NBA rotation and he was of the belief that it was nine or 10 guys that it gets really difficult to play 11. I do agree with that to an extent, but I also think that he overplayed some guys where you go look at the minutes totals for Donovan Mitchell, for Jared Allen, really for the starters. Go look at how many minutes they've played over the last several years. It's like 34-35 minutes per game, which is a lot. I wouldn't expect Kenny Atkinson to operate that way. I would expect Kenny Atkinson is going to get the minutes down a little bit for these guys and that means there might be room to play 11 guys. So who could those 11 be? We know we just went through the starting lineup so I don't need to talk about those guys, but cares for verd as somebody going to be in the rotation. That's an easy yes. Isaac Okoro, that's an easy yes as well. I think Dean Wade is an easy yes as well. I even think George Yang playing some backup four minutes alongside Evan Mobley or Jared Allen, I think that's an easy yes too. So that gets you to nine guys right there and then you still have a couple of holes. Okay. Do you want to have a fourth ball handler saying that cares for verd the third? Do you want to play Tristan Thompson as that third big or are you good having one of Evan Mobley or Jared Allen on the floor at all times and playing two bigs when they're rather just one big when they're apart? That is something I'm interested in seeing. That is something I would be very interested to ask Kenny Atkinson the next time he's available for comment. That is something I can't wait to find out about his philosophy with this team. Is Jaylen Tyson going to be somebody that forces his way into the rotation? Is he going to continue the really strong play I thought that he had in the Las Vegas summer league? Is that going to carry over to training camp and will he be able to force his way onto the floor? The number 20 overall pick, that's not an unheard of thing to do. I don't know if it's going to be the case at the start of the season, but it should be the case by the end of the season. If Jaylen Tyson's rookie year in the NBA is going to be considered a success, I think that rookie year in the NBA means that by the end of the year, even if the Cavs reach everyone's expectations, he should be competing for minutes. He should be part of that equation if he has a successful rookie year. Now, I don't know what that future is going to be. Then back to the fourth ballhand, I'll just tie Jerome C. Minutes as Craig Porter Jr. see the floor. There are guys. Others have 14 players on NBA standard contracts. There's a case to be made really for all 14 of them to see minutes. Now that's obviously not something that can consistently happen. You can't play 14 guys, but I do think you can play 11. So Karis Lverde is 6, Isaac Okoro is 17, Wade is 8, George Ying is 9, and then do you play Ty Jerome or Craig Porter Jr. there's probably only room for one of those guys, but that's 10. And then I think Jaylen Tyson, if he earns minutes, he's 11, or there are matchup dependent things. What about Tristan Thompson? Does he earn minutes? That could be number 11, he could be number 12. Is that something that the Cavs want to do? Is that something that makes sense for them? How deep are they willing to go? I think it's really interesting when you start looking into how many minutes guys play and Sam Merrill is another one. Sam Merrill should be part of their rotation. He absolutely should be on the floor. That's another guy that needs minutes. He needs to have minutes on this team. It gets really crowded really fast. And how Keni Atkinson is going to divide this up, that's going to be very interesting to me. And I want to talk about minute allocation, because Keni Atkinson has done something that JB Bickerstaff could not do in Cleveland. He did it in Brooklyn. I want to see if he can bring it to Cleveland with the Cavs. That's next right here, unlocked on Cavs. Today's show is brought to you by Fandall. I've told you a ton about Fandall. Why have I told you a ton about Fandall? Well, because Fandall, you know, it's America's number one sports book. So I've got a lot of really great things to say on Fandall. Maybe you like the Cleveland Browns this weekend. 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You should absolutely go out and do it. And just head on over to Fandall.com, America's number one sports book. And you can have your Sundays just like my Sundays. It's exactly what you should be striving for. I want that for my Sundays, and I want it for your Sundays, too. I want you to have great Sundays watching the NFL, especially while we wait for the NBA to arrive. There's no better way to spend a Sunday than just on the couch watching Sunday ticket, and Fandall can bring it to you for free for three weeks. All you have to do. Download the Fandall app, about $5 in a three week free trial is coming your way. Now through September 22nd, so you're running out of time. Make sure you get that done so you can enjoy football Sunday ticket the way it's meant to be enjoyed. Fandall, America's number one sports book. Decisions, decisions. Wait a minute. Are you still looking for cars on Carvana? Yeah. Decisions, decisions. When I use Carvana, I found the exact car I was looking for in minutes. Put it on the spot. Electric or full diesel. Decisions. Come on. You've been at it for weeks. Just buy it already. You're right. Cross over it is. Decisions. Decided. Whether you know exactly what you want or like to take your time, buy your car the convenient way with Carvana. Thank you again for making lockdown calves. Your first listen every day, very excited about what is ahead. This week lockdown calves not going to spoil it, but I've got a couple of things on the works. I've got two interviews. I'm very excited to bring you. I'm not going to say who, not going to say when, but I think that, I think that you will enjoy them. I'm very, very excited about them. So make sure you're subscribed, wherever you get your podcasts, Apple, Spotify, and where else? Make sure you're subscribed on YouTube. Hit that like button too. If you're watching this on YouTube right now, let's boost those numbers a little bit. Let's make this video available to so many more people. So the last thing I want to talk about today is minute allocation for the calves because this is something that under JB Bickerstaff the rotation was shorter than I believe it will be under Connie Atkinson, but also the starters played heavier minutes than I think they're going to. And I, what I did was I went back and looked at how, I went, I pulled up basketball reference. I went to the Brooklyn Nets, 2018, 2019 was Connie Atkinson's last full season in Brooklyn. So it was the year before Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving arrived there and everything just went bad. That year, no one on the Nets averaged more than 30.2 minutes per game. Nobody averaged more than 30.2 minutes per game. Last season on the calves, Donovan Mitchell averaged 35.3 minutes per game, Darius Garland averaged 33.4 minutes per game, Max Drew's averaged 32 flat, Jared Allen averaged 31.7, Evan Mobley averaged 30.6. So the calves had five guys last year. They're ideal starting five, all five of them averaged more minutes per game than the leader in minutes for the last team, Connie Atkinson coached for a full season. I'm not saying that Donovan Mitchell's going to play five less minutes a game, but I don't think it's going to be 35 plus minutes a game for him. Now there will be nights where he does do that, but I suspect he's probably going to be around 32 minutes a game. Darius Garland probably going to be around 31.32. Max Drew's probably going to be closer to 28 than 32 if I had to guess, considering that the calves have a little bit of newfound depth at that position. Jared Allen might be high 20s. Evan Mobley probably going to be around 30. So this is a way that I think the calves can squeeze some extra minutes for guys and really play, if they can play 11 guys, it's going to be because of that. Now the other thing that I noticed when I looked up and down that basketball reference page is that season, Brooklyn had 11 guys that averaged 20 or more minutes per game. Now part of that is not everyone's in the lineup every night, there are a couple guys that played like 50 games, and when players are not playing every night, that number can get skewed a little bit. As we saw last year with how many guys were in and out of the lineup, well that boosts up the minutes per game number because those minutes don't disappear, they have to be played by somebody so that number does get boosted up just a little bit. But I don't think the calves are going to health, of course, necessary here. I don't think the calves are going to be at 11 guys at 20 or more minutes per game, but can they be at 11 guys that are at 16 minutes a game or more? I think that is a very possible thing, and I don't think that is something that I would have anticipated under JB Baker staff, I don't. I mean last year the calves had, and Marcus Moore excused this a little bit because he only played in 12 games, but the calves had 10 guys at 17 and a half minutes per game last year. I think they will have 11 that are around that number this year. Now Marcus Morris was 11th at 15, but the drop off from, and I really don't even want to include him because that was at the end of the year. Craig Porter Jr. is the next guy that was on the roster all year long. He was at 12.7, so there's a really big drop off. I don't think there's going to be that really big drop off, that's something that makes sense. I think it's going to be, you're going to see 11 that are at 15 or higher, 16 or higher, 17 or higher. I think that's where that will be, because I think Kaniy Atkinson's not going to play starters quite as much. I think he's going to have a longer rotation, and I think that is going to be something that ultimately leads to the calves playing their best basketball at the right time, which is not something they did under JB Baker staff, and that ultimately is the goal for Kaniy Atkinson. As a goal for this team, that's the goal for this organization, and I think that this is a way to get there. Thank you again for making lockdown calves. Your first listen every single day, like I mentioned on yesterday's show. We are back to a daily schedule. I'm coming back to five days a week, wherever you get your podcasts, Apple, Spotify, anywhere else, coming at you on YouTube too. Like I said, I've got a couple of really cool things this week. I'm not going to say what they are, but I'm very excited about them. I think you should be excited about them too, so you don't miss it. You need to be subscribed, Apple, Spotify, anywhere else you get your podcasts, YouTube. Make sure you hit that subscribe button, click that notification bell, and give me a thumbs up as well. I will be back tomorrow for another edition of lockdown calves. Thank you for making me your first listen every day. (upbeat music)
