On this episode of the Contagious Influencers of America, have you heard of the Zero Victim mentality? Well, if you haven't, you're about to. The purpose of my children is so much more important to me than the pain of my ancestors. That's the power of Zero Victim thinking that I'm not going to allow my children and grandchildren to suffer perpetually because of the things that happened in the past. I think America needs this message right now. ♪♪♪ And this is CIA Contagious Influencers of America. I'm David Sands. Today, I'm so honored to have Pastor, author James E. Ward Jr. with me. He's also known as America's Zero Victim Pastor. He's all about setting people free from fear, anxiety, depression, and discouragement. And it's all done by equipping those of us with a new attitude towards life. Because of James' unique perspective and thinking, he is a highly sought-after speaker and pastor. With the complex, racial, cultural, and sociopolitical challenges we face today, his message is exactly what we need to hear. Now, you can learn more from Pastor James and so many other influential folks in the Christian counseling world at KeepTheFaith.com. The hope for our channel, Keep The Faith, is a goldmine of resources for anyone who feels an aching in their heart to help others. Just head on over to KeepTheFaith.com and click on the "Hope Together" page and you will be taken to a channel filled with videos from famous speakers, interviews with guests, and so much more. We're adding new content all the time. There are people like Taya Kyle, Steven Otterburn, and so many others. You will feel equipped, encouraged, and empowered. But first, let's get to my interview with Pastor James E. Warren. So James, welcome. Pleasure to have you. And I just got to ask you, oh, first of all, this is a great cover. I love this. Boy, don't you look bad. I know, right? No, that's great. Zero victim, overcoming injustice with the new attitude. Why this book at this time? Well, David, thanks for having me, first of all. And why this book at this time, man, America is in crisis. And we need to understand how to live life from the inside out, not the outside in. If you think about it for a moment that if any person lives life from the outside in, the way that life is shifting on a moment by moment basis, your life will be a constant yo-yo. And that is not God's plan for us to live life from the outside in, but from the inside out. And think about the power of a person at least believed as is God's design, that they were a winner. And they were not losers. They were not subject to all the victimization that life offers them. That would be a revolutionary point in their life just as it has been in my life. And I wanted to get that to as many people. I think America needs this message right now. Victimization is the soil from which all of the division, the hostilities, the challenge that we're seeing right now is coming from victim soil. I think America needs this message right now. Well, I heard you say if we want to see a stronger nation, we need to start by creating better, stronger people who do not see themselves as victims. But isn't it cool to live as a victim these days? It seems like, oh my gosh, look at me. That's the way it is. It's just the way it is. It'll never be any better than this. You know, I'm not this, I'm not that. I don't have this advantage. I mean, it seems like being a victim is the end thing. You're absolutely right. It's a badge of honor now. Victim thinking has been weaponized. It's been politicized. I think that our politicians have discovered that the greatest political capital in our society today is victimization. If you can convince people that they're victims and the other party made them victims, you'll win landslide elections. And I think this is something that's affecting our political system in a very, very significant way right now. But it's become a badge of honor, and it's very unfortunate now that I think there's just an absolute breakdown of dignity and esteem, self-esteem, self-worth, that victimization lends itself as the narrative that folks are subscribing to that gains them power, that gains them influence. I mean, you look at what happened in the nation in the last three years, beginning of 2020, every industry has been shifted and affected, and this ideology of victimization has empowered folks to the point now that jobs and industries, and you got this whole DEI ESG industry that's developed around victimization. And I think we're beginning to see the fallacy of that. We're beginning to see that implode that if people are not inherently walking with a degree of dignity and victory and their values in terms of who they are in a self-esteem, we're saying now that this is adversely affecting our nation because America has gone into this victim narrative. What happened to you? At what point in your life did you decide, I am not going to be a victim? Yeah. So, interesting story. I'm originally from Tuscaloosa, Alabama, and grew up in the south. The tail end of the school systems being desegregated. So, I grew up in Tuscaloosa divided by the Black Warrior River, and as a kid it was inherently known. The black people were on one side of the river, the white people were on one side of the river, and you don't cross the river. That's just how I grew up. And then the day comes in third grade that I remember getting the notice up until that time. I don't remember having seen a white student at school because it was just all black kids in that school. I remember getting to notice that in third grade they were going to bust some of those black kids to the white side of town. For third grade, I said, "Man, this is the end of the world. This is not going to work." They don't know what they're doing. You don't cross the river. And I remember that traveling on that first day of school, even crossing the river, seeing the landscape change, seeing that the homes, the lawns were more well manicured and something on the inside of me said, "You know, I belong on this side. I'd like to live on this side." Went to school. It was a great school. Fresh paint, well lit, all the playground equipment worked. New chalkboards. And so it was like this new experience. And I had a third grade teacher who happened to be a friend of my grandmothers. And she was a very wise woman. She would write our names on the board for doing good things and not for punitive reasons. So typically when you cut up, you act up and you get your name on the board. But when you were kind to another student and you let somebody else go to the pencil sharpener and you did well on a spelling test, you put your name on the board. And I started to see that my name was on the board quite a bit. And this is against the backdrop of thinking that the white people don't like the black people and kids don't get along. There was something David about me saying my name on the board that it clicked within me. And I believe it was a providence of God that I recognized that the white kids around me weren't against me. And somehow, some way at that moment, I stopped believing in white supremacy because I stopped believing in black inferiority. Now, nothing changed around me. Everything changed within me. And when everything changed within me, it changed everything around me. And the trajectory of my life changed my perspective about life, the quality of my relationships, the quality of living change. Regardless of what was happening around me, I was not a victim on the inside. I did not see myself as a victim. And so any situation I went to after that and to this very day, I always saw myself as being victorious and not being a victim. And I think this is the message that we need right now that if you can change what's happening on the inside, you can absolutely change what's going on happening on the outside instead of being a subject to and being someone who was influenced by the things that are happening around us. So, I'm assuming that you're not saying that, for example, skin color, that that is not an excuse. Or is it? No, it's not an excuse. Now, the zero victim mindset does not deny the fact that victimization happens to all of us. I say that life is perfectly designed to make victims out of all of us. If there's one entity or one person who doesn't discriminate, it's the devil. He hates everybody. He'll victimize anybody and everybody. So the world is a hostile place and victimization is a part of life. The zero victim mindset never denies victimization. It prepares us and equips us for it and to deal with it, understanding that it's inevitable. And so there are all kinds of challenges that have been historically in our nation that are today and always will be, but it's a preconditioning of the mind. It's a preconditioning of the heart to be victorious in those circumstances, which is why the subtitle is overcoming injustice with a new attitude. I believe that attitude is the very first perspective that needs to take place of change, that I say that attitude determines altitude. It really determines how high you can go in life. It all starts with the right attitude about life, and it's something that I found to be revolutionary in dealing with folks, whether it's victims of sex trafficking, folks who have been wrongly incarcerated, folks who have bankruptcies, any kind of setback in life is not limited to issues with race and racism. A tremendous amount of conversation of what's happening with the war in Israel right now. Victimization is something that's affecting our world, but so few people are adequately equipped to deal with it and it starts inside. It starts with a change of perspective in the heart and the mind. So if you're a 50-something year old woman who feels like they're a victim to the husband running off of somebody 20 years younger, you go, "Well, that's just the way it is. That's the way it's always been. I've got left to have nothing to live for. What would you say to her?" I would say to her, don't allow the man that hurt you in life to hurt you for the rest of your life. You can't change what happened. It's unfortunate. But as long as that incident occupies mind space and real estate in your heart and in your mind, someone who didn't care about you then will control your life for the rest of your life, and that is not God's plan for you. God has a future, a redemptive future for that woman, and this book is entitled to help her break the chains and to break that stronghold over her heart and her mind to live as a perpetual victim for the remainder of her life because of something that happened in the past. It's unfortunate. We condemn it. We wish it did not ever, it didn't happen. But you know what? God has a future for you and it is not to control your life for the rest of your life, but the shift begins with an attitude and a heart change and a zero victim perspective. That's why the message is needed because those situations are sometimes unfortunately a part of life, but we can recover. We can move forward with the good things that God has for us. You have kids? I do. A 19-year-old and a 21-year-old. Yeah. So have you been teaching them this since day one? Yep. They can articulate it perhaps as well as I can. Really? They and the millennial, Gen X, Gen Z generation, much of the woke ideology, the CRT, the challenges with intersectionality, cultural hegemony. My children are living in that space and this is the determination. Similar to, there's a story about Daniel and his friends. They went to Babylon, but I like to say Babylon never got a side of them. They were in Babylon, but Babylon was not a side of them. I think that today, David, we have to build better, stronger people with deeper convictions. And I tell my children, listen, if you have deep convictions and you're clear about your identity, there's no professor in America that can change you or alter your identity if you know who you are and you know what you believe in. So they can share this message and articulate it. And because of it, they've not been subject to the cultural ideologies that are really pulling students in. We're seeing more and more protests across college campuses today, even of kids who feel that they're victimized. My children don't live that way. They don't carry that perspective because of the zero-victim mindset. And now that empowers them to be a solution to the problem instead of being a victim of it or being subject to it. That's where we need to be today. Certainly as people of faith is understanding that we're the agents of change and transformation and we're not to be subject to the effects of the darkness. The light has to shine and the darkness cannot comprehend it. The only way to get rid of the darkness, David, you've got to turn on the light. But I think for far too long now, it seems like the light is running and retreating. You don't fight darkness. You don't walk in the room and start swinging your arm to fight darkness. You want to get rid of the darkness? Just turn on the light. This zero-victim mindset, I believe, empowers people to really be people of light. And we'll begin to see the darkness dispel when we can find that point of critical mass that a number of us are thinking the way that I really believe God intended us to. You also say that the people who will do well in life are those people who learn to manage their challenges. Tell me about that. It is. That's something that, I guess, one of the advantages of being a pastor is walking with people through challenges and hardships in life. And I've discovered that the people who really do well are the people who learn to manage their challenges well. I have a story and an analogy I can give you to help to explain that. An analogy of managing your challenges well. I like to say for those who like baseball, I say that the pitcher is a very bad guy. If you throw an object that's rock hard at 100 miles an hour at another man, you're not a good dude. That is an assault. That is a bad thing. Let's just say the pitcher is potentially in the business of victimizing whoever he's throwing a pitch toward. And then you have the catcher behind home plate that if he attempted to catch that pitch and he's unprepared, he's not expecting it, that could be a life-threatening situation. But the catcher does a few things. Number one, he takes the right posture. Number two, he anticipates the pitch. And number three, he puts on the right protective equipment that what could be a life-threatening situation now becomes America's favorite pastime. And it's enjoyable and enjoyable sport to him because he is managing the problem instead of being victimized by the problem. And so I use that analogy that life works the same way. There are some pitches that are going to be thrown at you. You know, biblically, the Bible has this phrase and Ephesians, chapter 6 when God says it's like these fiery darts are coming, being thrown at us. And so life is going to throw you some pitches and some victimizations that could potentially destroy you, but similar to a catcher. If you anticipate the fact that they're coming and you precondition your mind, if you take the right posture and if you put on the right protective equipment, you can manage the victimization that will come your way instead of being victimized by it. And I think that's just a great way of understanding that these things are going to happen. The best thing we can do is to prepare ourselves to deal with them and to see to it again. That as we manage these challenges well, then we get to write the story about our future instead of being subject to what they could be. I experienced this in my own life. Just recently, speaking of Alabama, I went to a family reunion and just found out that the white slave-owning family that owned my ancestors has a little church not too far from the farm that my dad grew up on. And I went to see this little church in their tombstones all around the church of these wards, but they're not my family members. We ended up finding out that this is the white slave-owning family that owned my family. And you know what? That's how we got our last name, Ward. So think about this. You put your name on your lunchbox on your book bag because that announces this is my property. And you also put your name on your slaves because that announced that's my property. That's how my family got our name. Now, that could conjure up all kinds of traumatic experiences for me about victimization. Wait a minute, you're not looking for your million bucks? Not looking for my reparations. So get this. That can create all kinds of traumatic experiences. I think many people are struggling with that. What happened with lynchings and beatings and all kinds of things? But the thing, the zero-victim mindset is so powerful. I'm not defined by my last name. I give value to my last name. And through the zero-victim mindset of faith, I've released forgiveness over those people. As a matter of fact, the wife of the slave owner taught my grandfather the Bible, taught my ancestor the Bible. That's how my family became a Christian. So I can see God's redemptive value there. I can see Christ in the crisis. And I'm not walking around angry because of it. And here's the power of zero-victim thinking. The purpose of my children is so much more important to me than the pain of my ancestors. That's the power of zero-victim thinking that I'm not going to allow my children and grandchildren to suffer perpetually because of the things that happened in the past. I think America needs this message right now. They even work through the effects of slavery and a lot of injustice. We need a heart and a mind reset right now. I think I want to see you debate Gavin Newsom on this issue. This has just gotten out of hand. Every time you turn around, it sure has. And by the way, it's always a politician bringing it up. Why is that? It's political capital. It's absolutely political capital. It's a sure way to be elected in the game power. I think that for us, among my own people group, among the black community, I think that in some ways the narrative keeps us in power that we're not seeing a breakthrough in terms of dignity being restored. We use the analogy sometimes, David, that harboring resentment, bitterness, unforgiveness. Those things, it's like drinking poison, expecting your enemy to die. And there's no way out of it. And so I think this victim narrative is something that's absolutely destroying people. Did things happen? Did injustice happen? Is it going to happen tomorrow? You better believe it because people are inherently unrighteous and sinful and need the Lord. But we have to prepare ourselves to deal with it much better. And here's the premise of why I think faith is such a significant part of this. It's concerning Jesus Christ as a preacher. The only innocent man who was Jesus suffered the greatest injustice that the world has ever known. There was no greater injustice than being crucified for the sins of other people when you had no sins. But think about this, while he was still in the act of being crucified and the nails were still being driven into his hands, he's already praying, "Father, forgive them, for they don't know what they do." He was sacrificially dying for the people who were killing him. That's the power of love. That's the power of forgiveness that I think needs to be restored in our conversations here in America in terms of getting through some of the challenges that we're dealing with today. So your pastor, what's your congregation think about what you have to say? They love it. So how did you get them to... What's the mix of your congregation? Congregation is absolutely diverse. Probably majority, non-black, easily. A church of nations call it to nations. And this message is the binder. We have folks in our church that are far right, conservatives. Some folks that are far left liberals in their ideology. You know what? They worship next to each other and care for each other's children, because I'd like to say that we're not here to call people from the right or the left. We're here to call people above. We need to rise above the things that divide us today. And so that message is something that we've communicated to create a culture within our church that everyone sees the benefit and understand that this is God's way of doing life and God's way of living together. I think it's the only solution for the fact that we're in a tribal society right now. We've never been more polarized. You've got to be black or white, Democrat or Republican, conservative or liberal, liberal, vaccinated or non-vaccinated, pro-Israel, pro-Palestinian. Life is all about division and polarization right now. The zero-victim message calls people out of their end zones back to the 50-yard line. I think America is tired of the division. I think we're tired of the vitriol, but there's so few voices to speak to that space, to what I call the still faith-based moral majority of America. I think there's very few voices that represent that group that are not polarized, and we're seeing tremendous engagement and support and traction from the zero-victim message as it's going out. Hey, you know, for years I've had game shows. We'll forge in jeopardy all those, but I have a show that I've been wanting to put on here. I think you'd be great at most. Yeah. It's a Monday through Friday show, and it takes on one theme per week, and you bring together two opposing sides on Monday that are ready to tear each other apart, okay, just like what you're talking about. And by Friday, they've got to find the compromise, and they work through it through that entire week. They're going to be in manners hell and throwing chairs at each other. It's going to be Jerry Springer all over again, okay? You know, bring the audience in two right away. But by Friday, they've got a shake hands, and they've got to both go home feeling like they won. You know, they're going to have the Kumbaya album all over again. I think you'd be a great host. Maybe, maybe. And you're watching a new network, so hey, I'm going to sell you the show. What do you got to work to do? So where I think that is true as a believer, I think every person of faith and every Christian needs to understand. There's a verse of Scripture in 2 Corinthians, chapter 5, verse 20 says, "Now then we are ambassadors of Christ as though God was pleading through to the world through us to be reconciled unto God." And so that role that you're talking about of being a mediator, a mitigator, an arbitrator, that's something that we're seeing in life of Jesus. I think that as Christians, we're supposed to be doing that in society right now. I think in some cases, unfortunately, we've picked the side. We're not willing to be in the middle to be the mediator. We've joined one of the teams, and I think that we find ourselves at an impasse right now. But we've got to come back to that 50-yard line, and I think the zero victim mindset is the framework and the way for us to do that. Well, I'm willing to do that as an Ohio State Fund, 11 months out of the year, but not in November. By the way, God is a jokester because I ended up marrying a girl from Michigan. Look at that. Ohio State guys. Of course, we haven't been into November yet, we'll see how that works out. We haven't had it in November yet. We got married last December. You need Mary's counseling, I'll help you during that time. Mediator. Tell me, give me a little part of your journey as becoming a pastor, so I want to hear the story of me and your wife. So, I grew up in the South again, grew up in the church. I came a Christian and gave my life to the Lord when I was 12. But after that time, I lived and I said I wanted Jesus to be Savior, but not Lord. I'm great going to heaven, but I still want to control my life and live my life. I lived that way and did a whole lot of things I should not have done. I was in a nightclub because I got into music, was touring with a man, did really well, was doing well with music, was touring with a man. A glass of brandy in one hand and a cigar in another hand surrounded by women in carousing and felt right there in the nightclub that Jesus spoke to my life and said, "I want your life." I could just hear his voice in me and I just saw in the spot and said, "Yes, I surrender when I came back to Chicago." I told the guys I was working with, "Hey, when I get back to Chicago, that's it. I'm done with music." Didn't know what I was going to do. Was that home scanning television channel? I came across a man who became my father-in-law and I had no idea that he would become my father-in-law and I would marry his daughter, went out to be part of his church and he discipled me in ministry. That began my journey answering the call to ministry and didn't know that the same television network that I saw him on randomly, today we own that same television network and we've expanded into a media company. Just an amazing expression of the providence of God. Anxiety and depression is really major problem today. What are we going to do about it? I think that this message of zero victim, which is the mind of Christ himself, has the potency and the power when coupled with the love of God to heal depression and discouragement. The love of God coupled with this zero victim mindset, I believe, as a potent formula to help and to equip people to break out of the pit of depression and discouragement, which are types of victimization. If I could give you an analogy to help explain how this works with the number zero, I often use a number line to explain how zero victim thinking works. You've seen the negative side of the number line, of course, that there's this line and there's an arrow on the end that shows you can go at infant item as far as you can possibly go in the negative direction. And the same thing is true on the positive side of the number line. But I break that model into three phrases and say that everything on the negative side of the number line is dealing with your past. We can sit here all day and list all of the problems and the challenges and the hurts and the pains that go as far as we can in the negative wrong direction. That section of the number line is dealing with your past. But then you come to zero in the number line and that's a moment of reset. And I like to say that the number zero is not nothing, it has value. And the value of being at zero is not being on the negative side of the number line. You're at least in a place of neutrality. You're in a place of a reset. You're in the place of a fresh start. The negative side of the number line is dealing with your past. The zero is deciding your person. That now your life is not just defined by what happened to you in your past but at the number zero you get to decide your person. And if you decide your person then you can move to the positive side of the number line which is developing your potential. So you go from dealing with your past on the negative side. Zero is deciding your person and that empowers you to develop your potential and you can go as far on the positive side as you have the faith to go. I think that model can help folks that are dealing with anxiety, depression, discouragement, any kind of fear, any kind of pitfall or victimization that they found their selves in and they think that they cannot recover. If you can adequately deal with your past and bring yourself to a place to know that I get to decide my person that when I wake up tomorrow, regardless of what happened to me, God has empowered me to make some choices and decisions and get the help, get the coaching that I need to move forward. That unlocks the opportunity for me to develop my potential to be who God created me to be and to live on the positive side of life. And I think that's one of the greatest things that excite me about the zero victim mindset. It is unlocking the potential that people have so much more to offer in life, but in many situations it's been buried or is lying dormant or even has been aborted because of victimization or some past traumatic situation that's happened in their life. I've heard you talk about people being, how do you put it, discipline emotionally? We all know we all live in our own world now on our phones. What do you mean by that? It sounds like a harsh term when you first hear it undisciplined emotionally, but I think it's an absolute true assessment about where we are in society today. More and more people are living by their feelings. And it doesn't necessarily matter what you say or what you do to me or what circumstances are. What matters is how I feel about life. And I think that being undisciplined emotionally, when we live by feelings and we live by emotions, I think that puts us in a position that only leads to a collision course with other people in the days of intersectionality. When everybody lives by their feelings, I think that there's no way to recover from that. I use this phased approach in terms of how victimization works. Number one, I call it the faith of victimization. Now, we all have faith for how we would respond when something unfortunate happens. We have a certain belief system right now about dealing with problems. And so the first phase would be our faith for victimization and what we believe about problems and hardships. The second phase would be the facts of victimization. So in other words, something really happened. The abuse really happened. The kid that was killed by a drunk driver, it really happened. The divorce really happened. There are the facts of victimization. But thirdly, it really becomes powerful when you deal with the feelings of victimization that sometimes the feelings of victimization are more destructive than the facts of victimization. And I think many people live in that space that we respond to the feelings of victimization and when those feelings are not resolved, it develops fourthly a philosophy of victimization that now we read victimization into life. We have a frame of reference and a mental framework that now anticipates that I am a victim in life. My identity is now being shaped by my feelings of victimization. And so I think that we've come to a place that I'm seeing more and more with the rising protests. And a lot of the things that we're seeing in society, we're seeing emotional vitriol like you've never seen it before. You know, I like Victor Frankel. You know, I'm a student of some of his writings. And he has this idea that there is a space between every stimulus and the outcome. And I like to say that victim thinkers respond to injustice. They react by reflex. In other words, they react by reflex when something unfortunate happens. But zero victim thinkers respond by reason. And I think this is something that we need to reintroduce to society today. That zero victim mindset that responds by reason instead of reacting by reflex and not living by our emotions. We talk about biblical strategies to win back the mind. Give me a couple of those. It starts with mind renewal. You know, the word of God tells us as a man thinks in his heart. So is he the human mind? I think victories in life are one, not only in the heart, but the one in the mind. That if we can win and overcome challenges in our mind, we can soon overcome those challenges in life. And we need a new way of thinking. If Jesus tells us, for example, on earth as it is in heaven, then there's a heavenly way of thinking, there's a higher perspective that we have to take about situations on earth if we intend to overcome those and move forward in life. And so that's the value of being people of faith and being encouraged by the scriptures is developing a new way of thinking and dealing with the issues that we're facing in society. So how do we get what you're teaching into these colleges that are not teaching anything close to what you're talking about? Yeah. It's needed. You know, I'm thankful that right now we have a mutual friend who's a partner and we're working right now in the beginning stages of developing accredited graduate, undergraduate and certificate curriculum for universities based upon the zero-victim mindset and the zero-victim ideology. And we're hearing from university presidents that are telling us that would be a gift to higher ed. They're having tremendous challenges in the residence halls, even finding unity among their faculty. They're having tremendous challenges with student life because of the more woke ideology that's overtaking our college campuses. And what you find is such a lack of resources with a biblical worldview which does zero-victim message as a biblical worldview. There are so few resources that universities are just grabbing books off the shelf by any social justice author. And they're literally injecting poison into our universities into the hearts and the minds of our students. And that is not allied. It's not compatible with our faith. As I speak across the country, I hear from parents all over saying that I raise my children to have my faith and to believe in my convictions in church. But they went to university for one semester. And after that, they came back and we didn't have a relationship. They think I'm bigoted. They think I'm narrow-minded. They think I'm racist. That's because we're allowing these ideologies from culture to shape the hearts and the minds of our students. And that something that's not allied with the biblical worldview. And so our objective right now is to get into that space to give them a different way of thinking. That space to pause scripture is something that's compatible with our values. The book is called Zero-victim Overcoming Injustice with a New Attitude by James Ward Jr. James, thank you so much. This has been, I could go on for another couple of hours. This has been wonderful and I look forward to doing it again. Thank you so much for having me. I'm grateful, David. Thank you. All the best. Thank you. Thanks again, James. His stories are so great. And his outlook on life is really quite empowering. And you can learn more from James in his book, Zero-victim Overcoming Injustice with a New Attitude. And again, for more information on the Hope for the Heart channel, go to KeepTheFaith.com. This has been CIA Contagious Influencers of America for the producers of the number one faith-based show in all of America and Canada, Keep the Faith. Do find out more about our radio show at KeepTheFaith.com. And of course, our website for Contagious Influencers Is Contagious Influencers.com. Please do rate and review us. Until next time, I'm David Sams. Thanks for watching. This has been CIA Contagious Influencers of America. This week, go out there and live that life and living color, because it sure is a heck of a lot more interesting than living in black and white. See you next time. ♪
