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Train HPAC could save you over $500 per year on your energy bills. And thanks to rebates and incentives, going electric can cost the same as a traditional air conditioning installation into train.com/residential. It's hard to stop a train. (upbeat music) - Slow burn media, evergreen podcast and killer podcast presents Who Killed, a podcast that provides a voice for the voiceless. Our best drug had enabled vibrations in his larynx to be detected and recorded at a distance and that he was to be killed by the Australian federal police. And all of this was caused by his toothpaste being drugged. - Hello and welcome to this very special episode of Who Killed. I am joined this week by two hosts. I am lucky enough to get both hosts on this show of Watching Two Detectives, a podcast from Sarah Ferris and evergreen podcasts. And welcome to the show, gentlemen. - Thanks, Bill. - Bill, mate, thank you. Really, we're really grateful. - Absolutely, I love the fact that you guys are new to the podcasting platform, to a degree. And you guys have a very interesting backstory and why don't you let the audience know about one what you did before you did this and then a little bit about how you got into it? - Sure. We're both retired New South Wales cops, detectives that spend both have 20 plus years in the police, both medically retired now. And then we stumbled across Sarah Ferris, which has got us into podcasting. Sarah reached out to me, looking for some information on somebody she was chasing a story about. And when I did my homework on Sarah, I realized that she was running a number of podcasts, including Conning the Con. And the person she was speaking about is running a con. - It was, oh, it's fine. It sounds very serendipitous, like it was meant to happen. And yeah, the fact that the con was occurring and Sarah's in charge of a con show, it's sometimes worked out like that. - Yeah, it is strange because I guess in actual fact, we kind of were lured into a con organization. We weren't there for long, we bailed, but look where it landed us. If you told us Bill 12 months ago that we would be having this conversation and we would have been sitting here talking about podcasts that we've done, I think both of us would have rolled over laughing. It's just an amazing story, I think, and a wonderful opportunity. And like we're forever grateful for, obviously, for you for reaching out today, but for Sarah, because without Sarah, this wouldn't have happened. So we're forever grateful. - Yeah, I think it's awesome. And I think with your background, obviously, when you met Sarah and Sarah had approached you guys and talked to you and just sort of offhandedly mentioned, you probably have some stories, don't you guys? I mean, it's pretty, you know, knowing a few police officers and my day, I say that you can't go, I don't know, five minutes without hearing a story. - Yeah, it is a bit like that. I think we, you know, once this transitioned and this become a real possibility, we sat down and we thought about particular cases that we worked on. And Scott and I worked together at Fairfield, roughly from when did you come 2001-ish? - Yeah, about 2001. - Yeah, so we spent, oh good, five years. I think, yeah, I left probably in about 2006. But, you know, we've remained close friends since then. And we've always kept an interest in, you know, one another's careers and that sort of thing. So once I guess this was a real possibility, we sat down and we thought about particular cases that we're on and like our first season, which is if tomorrow never comes. And it's the murder of Michael Furlong. I think there was just so many twists and turns that are in this investigation that we kind of looked at each other and said, that's it. It was a pretty easy selection for us, wasn't it? - Yeah, and it's funny, Bill. You know, you talk about cops and cops all around the world are much the same. We've all got stories, but we don't think that they're overly interesting to anybody else until you actually start to tell some of these stories. And you realize how interested people are in some of the things that you've done. To us, it's just, okay, that's what I did at work on such and such a day. And you park that and move on to the next one. - Sure. - But it's not until we speak to guys like yourself. And Sarah, to bring it out. - Yeah, yeah. - There's a lot more meat on the bone, as they would say. And having come from working in news and having been a line producer and just knowing that you can barely get any information out in a short amount of time, it's great that the podcast platform is out there and we can all kind of tell the story at the pace that we feel it needs. And I mean, in your situation, I mean, you thought you were probably gonna do a case, you know, an episode. And turns out that's just not, you know, they needed more attention. And that, what better platform than a podcast? - Yeah, 100%. And the original plan for if tomorrow never comes, was one, maybe two episodes, just telling the story until Hogue's reached out to Michael Furlong's family. And he sent a message to Luke, Michael's son, who jumped on the phone straight away and basically said, I've been waiting 20 years to meet up with the detectives that solved my father's case. And we ended up speaking with Michael's wife, Colleen and son, who was nine when Michael was killed. And we ended up with five episodes. We feel we're able to do the family story, some justice by sitting down and going through it with them because they'd never really ever told their story. Now with your case, it was, you said it was a very easy choice. And when I, I don't know, a couple of years into my podcasting experience, I created a show called My Passion Case. And it was, I'm gonna talk to different podcasters about the case that got them interested in this long form narrative. And I'm guessing, I'm both of your guys' ends, that this would be your passion case. - I'm not sure about that. I have knowing what we've got planned. Yeah, knowing what we've got planned, I'm not sure that that's the case, certainly with you, Hogs. - This one definitely struck a chord with us. And I think the magical thing about this one is that it was our first. And I think that strikes that thing within us because is it a magical case? It definitely is because the twists and the turns. And in one stage, whilst, you know, recording it, rogues, says openly, you couldn't write a movie script with this because it's too far-fetched. And seriously, the story is, and we're not, you know, blowing smoke or anything like that, it is a bizarre tale. But knowing the other stories that we've been involved in and the other cases that we've been involved in as well, they've all got that ring with us, that passion with us because there's some unique tales and some just out in our tragic stories that we are so honored to share. So it's really, really hard to say it's this one. This one is definitely special for us because it's our first story. And the second series that's coming up as well is the same. They both have different strings on them that really make it personal for us. - Well, in the first season, give us a little background on the case itself and things that occurred and the things that, you know, again, you don't have to give away the ending or anything like that. But, you know, what makes it so interesting are all those twists and turns and the stuff that you go, "Man, nobody could even write this." Even if it was in a screenplay, people wouldn't buy it. You know, what were some situations like that? - So Michael Furlong was 45 years of age and had wife Colleen, although they had separate, but still very, very close and friendly. And even Michael had gone and see Colleen on the day of his murder. But he was an engineer and was out to help people. And Luke, you know, draws in the irony of this that his dad was actually out looking for components to place in motor vehicles. 'Cause he was always on the road and he saw lots and lots of motor vehicle accidents. And, you know, back in those times, it's fatigue and being on the road. So, you know, traveling in all different hours of the day with him. So he was passionate towards trying to invent something to place in a car to keep the driver alert. So that's what he was doing, essentially. So he'd gone to an electronic store in Smithfield with his brother and they'd gone into this electronic store, been inside for a short amount of time, come outside. And where it is is a, it's off the main road in Smithfield, which is a suburb in New South Wales, obviously, but main road just offside the thoroughfare. And there's a school and there's a church across the road and then there's houses. So this business was kind of in the wrong place, if that makes sense. So it's late on a afternoon in 2002. And it's about coming to about 5 p.m. So it's in June, so it's winter. So it's starting to get dark. Anyway, Len, who's my brother? - We're opposite. You guys in the Northern Hemisphere. So when we say it's June and it's cold and it's dark and rainy, think your winter time. That's where we're at. - Some places maybe think you're summertime, but you know, so they'd gone into the store and then they come out and this tall chap, young, walked straight up to them, like very, very thin, curly wavy hair, says, oh, excuse me, in a heavily British accent. So it was more like he was private schooled. You know, a learned type of person come up to him and said, oh, excuse me, chaps, is this your motor vehicle at the front? I'm awfully sorry, I've actually, I've hit it, I've bumped into it. And they've kind of gone, oh, okay. Anyway, they walked over, had a look at the car and they're going, where's the damage? And he's going, oh, you know, it's just here. So anyway, they're walking around the car. They can't see it. - Something fishy. - Something fishy, but they didn't, they were none the wiser. - I'm sure. - He took Leid Michael and Glenn around to the front of the car. And he said, look, I'm sorry, it's just down here. So he effectively took Michael and led him down to placing in the vulnerable position. And he's, you know, if you can imagine you're squatting down, looking at, you know, your bumper bar really, really low, saying, I'm sorry, I've scratched you here. So Michael's in that position, down looking at his bumper bar, says, man, you know, I can't see anything, what are you talking about? And it's that time where our fender stands effectively directly behind him and is crouching down over him and he's got him in the vulnerable position. He pulls out a hunting knife and slices his throat. And then lunges at Michael's brother, Glenn, and Glenn's off and he's chasing with this Boeing knife up the road. He disappears, Glenn manages to escape, but our fender comes back and then disappears. And that's that store. That's the crime that's happened to him. It's just like it's horrific. When Glenn comes back, he's faced with, you know, the body of his brother. His brothers managed to stumble a few feet. And it's only from the curbside to the entrance of these electronics stores, probably five meters tops road and he's collapsed just near the stairs. It was something absolutely horrific for him to aid witness then and then come back to him. - I mean, I can't even fathom one seeing that occur and then coming back and finding your brother dead. That's just got to be horrifying. And obviously, life-changing you. - Yeah, you've escaped with your life and then to find your brother with the injuries that he had. - There's got to be some guilt too. I mean, survivor's guilt is a real thing. And that's common among people in this situation that that survivor's guilt. - Yeah, I would think that that would definitely be a hard thing to carry around with you for the rest of your life. I mean, even though you probably couldn't affect anything that would have occurred that night, it's still something that's going to be in the back of your mind of replaying it, replaying it, replaying it, replaying it. And it's just, I mean, I-- - I mean, nature. - Yeah, it's just, yeah, human nature is just, it's got that recorder that just constantly reminds you and it's just one of the things about psychology. And especially with being police officers, you guys see so much of the ugly side of life that, I mean, we know about mental health and it's just got to be such a greater strain on you guys as cops. I mean, that's just kind of, like you said, you take it home with you, it may not be interesting because it's part of your daily schedule, but-- - Yeah. - You know, everybody gets used to their jobs and hey, people you're interested about podcasting too, now and you're like, wow, what? Okay, but I mean, you're right though, I mean, once you start talking about these stories and you start digging into them a little bit deeper, you know, you find that there is some, there's some real good stuff that can come from it and you know, whether it's closure or, you know, that's such a strong word, I don't like to use it very often 'cause it doesn't really apply 'cause there's never gonna be closure, but if it can bring some sense of healing-- - And peace. - Yeah. - And peace, yeah. - And everybody's got that different definition. - Yeah, 100%. What we've since learned from Luke and Colleen after speaking to them and we went, they live now in Brisbane, so Hugs and I went up to Brisbane and spent essentially a weekend with Luke and Colleen and interviewed them, it's closed a circle for Luke, so closures as you say is probably not the right word but it's actually closed a circle for him. He now knows exactly what happened to Dad. He knows that Dad wasn't lying there, suffering after being stabbed multiple times, which is what the media reports had said. And he actually out of left field one morning while we're having breakfast in a cafe, asked us to take him back to the crime scene. - Which we did as episode five when taking to the crime scene. - How? - Somewhere that he had avoided for years. - All these life scenes. - Mm, that had been one emotional role coaster. - Yeah, it was. It was. We, well, I think, you know, we're taking it back to that cafe. We were, I think I used the words taken back and that's not really the right word to say. It wasn't what, we kind of had that, oh my God moment. It's such, yeah, I don't know, it's such, it's just one of those things, it was just such a, not so much a, it was a massive question and it took so much courage for him to ask it. And for us, it was like the ultimate. How can you put it? We could give him that one final piece of the puzzle, I guess. And for us, it was a great honor for us to do it. And it was just, like Luke comes out and says, "You know what, no stage have I asked." The, did, we asked that and we hadn't. Luke come out and asked us to do it. And we were just so honored, I think, to be for him to have the trust in us, to ask us to do that for him. It was something that I don't think either of us will ever forget that, you know, that ultimate vulnerability and then coming to us and asking us to do it. It was just, it was something special. It really was like, you know, I think, now I'm being on this podcast journey, had, you know, this was 20 years ago or 22 years ago when it happened. How would we have felt? I don't, I think the feelings would have been extremely different to what they are today. I think, going back then, Rose, I think it would have been, well, yeah, okay, this is part of the job that we're doing. Whereas now this isn't part of the job that we're doing, this is something that we can do for them. And it's totally different. - And it took Luke a little while to convince us to do it, to be honest. I mean, we said, you really? You want to do that? And he said, yeah, yeah, yeah. And we both sort of tempered that by saying, you know that this is going to be a really emotional experience. And do you really want to do this? I mean, we're happy to do it. But do you really want? And he said, 100%, I need to close that circle. - Yeah. And it was phenomenal, Bill. We arranged it and I went and picked him up on the morning thereof. And we had about an hour's drive, 45 minutes an hour drive. Anyway, we did a little bit of recording for a little while and the nose and the angst that you hear in our voices. That's real. It is, yeah, he was so nervous, but yet, so was I. - You tried to ask that. - Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And of course, I'm just sitting there going, what if this turns backfires, backfires, you know, for him. And, you know, just opens up all the doors, you know. Yeah, it was a traumatic thing to do. Not us, I'm not worried about us. I was worried about Luke and managing him through the day because, Bill, it was a massive day to do. But now that we can speak about it, gee, I'm so glad that we were able to do it for him. It was something special. We recorded a little bit and then turned the tapes off and just drove and seriously, we were just in silence. And to the point then, where we were a couple of minutes before arriving. And I said, "Mady, you're right if we turn this back on." And he goes, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm right." So we turned it back on and it kind of like a calm head come over him. I think that driving with that, you know, good half an hour, just being quiet. And just, you know, probably just internalizing things and just saying to him, you know, mate, we'll just take this step by step. We won't do anything. We'll turn it off if, you know, if we want to, you know, we don't even have to play any of this if you don't want it. We don't have to record anything. But, you know, it was a great process to go to. And, you know, when we actually took him to where Dad was killed and where the car was parked and where Michael had laid, all recording was off. We turned it off and we just wanted Luke, I guess, to have that, you know, that period of time with us to ask what everybody wanted and to see. And, you know, pay his respects to the, you know, where he's Dad passed. And, yeah, it was a good process to go through. Yes, excuse me. Sitting down with the family members is, it's never easy, especially when you are not in the position that you were as police officers, but your citizens and you're feeling similar emotions opposed to being on the job. And I'm assuming that that has a different feel to it than I would assume investigating a case when you're getting paid for it. Yeah, I mean, we speak about it in the pod that, and you touched on it, Bill, we're seeing people at their worst as cops. And we, you know, the night that his brothers killed, we've got Glenn back at the police station and we're trying to get a statement from him. And Hogg's took that statement and we've got one chance, essentially, at that. So he's not at his best, he's just seen his brother murdered. He's just escaped with his life. And you've got somebody that's sitting you in front of a computer trying to take a statement from you. There's a whole range of emotions there. And often, as cops, we don't get to see those people ever again. All right. So this is this is a very different way of meeting people, essentially. Yeah. You know, all that all that empathy, you know, we've got to show the empathy and we've got to support them, but we've also got to we've got a job to do and that's get that information from them as quick as we can. Because right, yeah, yeah, yeah. We've got time pressures and, you know, we've got this lunatic running around cutting people's throats. We need to get onto that as quick as we can. So, yeah, really different approach in a way of sitting down with a victim of crime. We we've actually spoken about that since now and it is seriously the cruelest process to go through and to put someone through because you're actually you're not okay. Tell me what happened. Right. I've got that. It's no, tell me what happened. What next? Take a moment. What did you see? I want it. It's breaking everything down to that and degree to take a victim's statement in a homicide. Takes hours. It is is not if you take an hour statement of someone, you haven't done your job right. You have to stay there, it has to take care of real. I thought television was totally real. I mean, I thought I thought typically, you know, a case was, you know, that cops investigate for 30 minutes and then they'd spend 30 minutes in the court and then it's, you know, everybody goes home happy, right? I said, I said, and now it did nine, you know, that five minute statement gets everything, trust me. Oh, and now with commercial breaks, please. So, yes. Yeah, it's 42 minutes to be proper. But yeah, it's got to be, you know, I mean, I know that like, you know, bringing some levity to the situation, but yeah, I mean, when you have somebody that is in that situation where one, they've witnessed their brother get killed. And in such a, I mean, such a manner that is beyond comprehension. I don't even want to, you know, dwell on that too much. But what his vision is, and then for you to have to ask him questions and basically be like matter of fact about it, that's got to be a tough role to, and a tough fence to kind of balance on because, you know, you have emotions that they're, you know, they're dealing with, but you also need to, like you said, you have a guy that's going around cutting people's throats and so you need to get this information. So it's like you have to play this balance of, you know, empathy slash investigation. And yeah, that's just got to be a slippery slope. - That's it, and sorry. - Yeah, it's something that we perfect over years. And not always get right. But, you know, the more experience you have it doing it, the better you become at it. And in this situation, you don't throw that job to somebody that's in their first week in a detective's office. You know, you're talking, you're getting somebody to do that, that's got a bit of experience under their belt because it is, as you say, a really delicate balance. - Yeah, super sensitive. And I would just think that, yeah, you would want the most experienced person to be in there. You know, maybe let it rookie just sort of observe. But, I mean, yeah, that's definitely got to be a skill that you build up and with that being said, do you guys have like certain detectives or certain cops that you have a better rapport with where you feel like you, when you do question a suspect or you did question a suspect that you got better information and you're like, "Hey, we're a good team, we should let's work on this guy." Yeah, yeah, you, there's always people that you gel with better than others. And again, it's, Hogue's and I work together pretty solidly for that six years that we're at Fairfield. - That's a good time. - Yeah, to a point where we were sort of anticipating where each other was going in interviews. - Right, and I know if I missed something Hogue's would pick it up. - That's a very, it's very true. It's even true in podcasting. I mean, you pick up on verbal cues and just certain aspects of your rapport and spending six years together. I mean, by the end of that six years, you guys had have, you know, been completely in sync and basically knew what the other person was thinking. I'm assuming. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Or is it something like, or is it something like, I guess we're all kind of diluted with television. And, you know, we all think of it like the good cop, bad cop and, you know, we've all seen scenarios where the interrogation room is this, that and the other. And it's, you know, how much of that is realistic and then how much of it is just total BS and. - Yeah, it's bullshit. - Okay, let's total cop bullshit what it is. I mean, it is bullshit. I mean, it is, I mean, it is. And then again, it goes back to the same thing about working in the news and not being able to tell a story in 30 seconds. It's the same thing with television. To all television, it's the same medium because you're just looking for ratings or whatever. But yeah, you can't really tell a story and, you know. - Yeah, with this one, Bill, I think that the glens role that afternoon and, you know, into the evening was just so crucial for us because he was, you know, he was able to give a thorough description of the offender being tall, you know, his wavy curly hair and his English accent. And that was the biggest cue for us that enabled us for this, you know, investigation to escalate really, really quickly because it wasn't until early hours. So this murder happened around five, around about 1 a.m. in the morning or midnight thereabouts in Centennial Park. So, you know, 40 Ks from Smithfield in Sydney. Police out doing uniform patrol through Centennial Park come across a stolen car. Now, I think we got a lot, a lot of luck that night because police drive through parks and all sorts of things relentlessly every day. And it's up to that officer at that moment to say, "I'll check that car," or not. Or, "I just keep driving." You know, someone's just sleeping in the car, "Who cares, keeps going." But these cops that night did a transport on their car and it come up a stolen. That was the first win for us, essentially. Then they went up and they approached his vehicle and they look in and he's the bloke sleeping in this car. So they've got a stolen car. You've got someone sleeping in it. I guess we better talk with him. And, you know, tap tap on the window gets out and he turns it on and it's just, these cops ended up having to call for urgent assistance and other police arrived at the scene. This bloke has just woken up and gone, berserk. - Just on the wedge. - And it's on. Just gone. So, you know, they take him into custody and take him back to Wavy police station. They don't know who they've gotten their custody, essentially, they've got a bloke in a stolen car. They were sleeping, but this bloke has gone berserk. Absolutely crazy. When we link back to our crime, we don't have a description of a car. We've just got a description of one bloke. And, you know, they're processing him in the charge room. And it wasn't until a forensic officer had come in there, you know, do your fingerprints and that sort of stuff. They come in and said, you know, could hear the racket in the end of the police station, essentially, from this bloke carrying on. And heard him speak and he had that English accent. And they said to the police at Wavy, there was a murder last night at Fairfield. And the offender spoke in an heavily, like, learned English accent. Maybe you should bring Fairfield. And it wasn't until that point that escalated and come on. Had that circle not picked that up or that forensic officer, we could have been looking at a different scenario that night. It just come down to some really, really good police work that made us, well, made them look at that car, look at him, that officer say he's got the bizarre accent. So once they started placing that together, they go, well, we better get that bloody car. So they've gone down, back down to Centennial Park, got the car towed to Wavy police station. And they start looking at in the car and they see a book called the Anarchist Cookbook. And then they've seen all electrical components on the back seat and they've gone, whoa, we think this is a bomb. - Yeah, yeah, that's. - So they've gone, so the police station gets evacuated. The bomb squad comes down in the early hours of the morning now. So you've got, you know, you get fenders out and bloody streetwood, essentially you have to do. The whole police station is evacuated until the bomb squad comes out, searches this vehicle and says, you know, yes, you've got the cookbook. Yes, there's a whole lot of components here, but no bomb. Thank God for that, but they find the knife and it's got all blood all over. And that blood eventually comes back to being Michael Fernland's blood. So whilst he's in custody, they're going through his property, you know, and he's got a wallet and there's nothing in it apart from some cash or the ID's gone. So back to Centennial Park, the police go and set up a crime scene now, because, you know, we've got, we've got this English bloke. We've got a knife now, we've got blood on it. We didn't know it was Michael's blood at that time, but definitely blood on it. So crime scene set up in Centennial Park and, you know, they do bridge searches and everything come across a garbage bin. We're in short, a close vicinity of the bin, I'm sorry, of the card that he was in, they start searching the bin and his or Michael's identification. So this has just escalated in such and progressed in such a short amount of time. - You hear the first 48, man, this is, this is coming together pretty well. - Really, really quickly. - Yeah, within 24 hours. - We're not even 12, really, realistically. - And as Hogue's the same bill, you know, without good routine police work, poking your head into that car and saying, what's going on here? You know, we're in a totally different, different world in this investigation, where we're searching for a needle in a haystack. - 'Cause you basically got away at that point, other than, I mean, he was far enough away. I mean, that just goes to show you how, yeah, good police work is, you know, it's priceless. It's really simple. - It's simple things. And when you think back to, you know, history of serial killers in the States, how many of them have been caught out by traffic stops? Or-- - Well, after even domestic terrorists, like Timothy McVeigh was caught speeding or didn't have a license plate, one of the two, or both. - Yeah. - And yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, the DC sniper, you know, sleeping at a rest stop. - Yeah, yep. - There you go. - And you know, it's-- - As you say to young police officers, you never know what you're walking into. A simple traffic stop can have major implications in something else. - And sure. - This is what we saw here. - Yeah, where he's just checking on the car, thinking it could just be, well, it's a stolen car. Obviously, you know, he's basically doing policing 101, which probably, it's like, maybe as you get older and you, you know, like you mentioned, you know, maybe choose as not to look at the car. - That's right. - Yeah. - You're basically SOL at that point. And you're, like you said, searching for a needle and a haystack, and sometimes things just fall into place like that. But we can't, we just, unfortunately, it's just not every case. - Yeah, no. - And we learned to ride our luck, because in other cases, you won't have any luck at all. - Fair point. - Yeah. - In this one, we had some luck, and we had some really good, some really good work by the uniform, guys, to get us to that point. And fortunately, we did, because as we started to probe into this bike's background, we found some bizarre things happening, and he's dangerous. - Yeah. - For example, he wanted to pour drugs into Australia from Papua New Guinea, where he was going to-- - He had this written out? - Sorry? - And so he had this written out? - Oh, he got arrested and charged for it. - He got convicted. - He got convicted. - I don't know, mastermind. - Yeah. - Yeah. - He was going to kill a pilot and parachute out of a plane. A little combination of DB Cooper and Michael Froome. - Yeah, we're taking all the boxes. - Yeah, yeah, we got a-- - Yeah. - Okay, we could have taken a plane, we've hijacked a plane, we've killed a person, we've-- - Yeah, she had a parachute. - What else do you want us to attach heroin and cocaine to the bottom of a ship to bring it into Australia, and then-- - Now, that one I've heard before, actually. That effort-- - Yeah, it has happened. - That is the-- - So these were all these crazy things that he was arrested for back in 1992. And he was convicted for-- - Okay. - You know, conspiracy to import. Prior to that, he had a group of careers running between Bali and Western Australia. And they were selling essentially his street level deals. But unfortunately for the offender at the time, they ended up spending all his money. So he was overseas organizing this drug importation, like purchasing of the heroin, and the funds dried up because his plates were punting all his money down the tab and lost us all. So he had to come back to Australia and come back on a roll or on a fake passport, but essentially, the cops grabbed him at the airport, but one of his minions, well, one thereof or someone in the know essentially had put him into the federal police saying, this bloke's running a importation ring. The cops had been told of the story. Of his plan. So as Rogue said, he was going to get a plane, he's gonna fly, sorry, with the pilot, he's gonna fly to Papua New Guinea, where the drugs are taken from Bali to New Guinea. And he was gonna dispose of the pilot and then parachute into Papua New Guinea. Now, everyone thinks you hear that and you're calling bullshit straight away. You're going, that is. So the cops went and did some search warrants whilst he was just back from Bali at that stage when he was in custody for the fake passport and they went and did some search warrants on storage sheds and they start finding guns, knives, but more importantly, they find pilots license, a parachute, he's done parachute courses, he's done scuba diving courses, he's got fake immigration stance for Australia, Papua New Guinea and Bali. He's got sea chart flow records. He had everything to suggest he was, yeah, he was feeding him. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's definitely a criminal 101, if not a criminal 401 kit. - Yeah, he's well-advised. - He's well-advised. - He's not just on a crazy scheme. - Yeah, I guess he's more like a Danny Ocean than a... - Yeah, he's fed income, had a pilot's license and a travel license. He was accredited, just phenomenal. But it was just the bizarre tale, but fast forwarding to the years previously and coming up to Michael's murder, mental illness. - Now it's just gonna ask, you know, that's gonna say, what was it that was the final straw that made him go to that next level? - Yeah, so he apparently had suffered from mental illness as lights gets a friend here, apparently lights gets a friend all throughout his life. So when we go back to Glenn and get the breakdown of what he had done through the day on the day of his murder, he actually tells us that they were in an electronic store in Maryland or Guilford West, which is just the Smithfield, like 10 minutes away. They were there previously and they were in that store and then they left and drove to change trying to set the Smithfield. Now it wasn't until that we went back and we were managed, we got the CCTV footage and inside the CCTV footage, sorry, inside the store on the CCTV footage, you see our offender and you see Michael and Glenn walking up aisles. Now it's not like a normal supermarket or anything like that, you know, where the shelving's are really high. They're only chest high, like on a killer song thing. And anyway, the footage shows the offender standing and he's just looking at these, like Michael and Glenn walking up and down the aisles and, you know, we both have said it. It's just deaf stares. If you can't explain it any other way, then he just was fixated with these two and just had a deaf stare on them. Even when they come to the front counter to the checkout with the shopping system and they're asking about particular components, obviously they didn't have them and he's standing right next to Michael. It's like, you know, we're whole on these screens. We'll see what's standing next to Gedder. He's got down right next to him. And Michael and Glenn, the footage shows Michael and Glenn walk out and he follows them. So when you get that story of them driving that short distance, you know, five, 10 minutes to Chantronics and not going in the store 'cause the offender doesn't go in. Michael and Glenn go in, they come out and he knows that it's them driving that car and he takes them to their car. So he's followed them all the way. So to think that, you know, you've got that chilling aspect now of like the hair's just standing up on the back of your head because we know what happens. But when the court, we don't know why. Because when he's interviewed, essentially he gives an alibi, didn't he, Rose, and I'll have him to say. - I was with the girl. - Yeah. You know, the alibi was never going to hold up, but yeah, that's all he gave us in the interview. Oh, not us, but two other police that were working on it. And I mean, so really to this day, we don't know his reasoning behind it apart from what he told the psychiatrists that reports ended up going to the judge. And we believe that he thought that Michael was an Australian federal police officer and that the AFP had technology in his toothpaste that allowed them to read his thoughts. - So to read his larynx, essentially, so they bugged the toothpaste, they drugged it. And then that allowed the AFP to be in the vicinity of him and record what he's speaking and what he's thinking because his toothpaste has been poisoned or drugged. And they could read the verbatations from his voice box. - And he killed Michael to send a message. - Yeah, so he had a fair old message. - So that was his motive at the end of the day. - That was it. - He saw Michael. - He was in another world. - Yeah, he saw Michael and thought, "You're a cop. "I'm going to show you a message, I'm cutting your throat." And that's what he did, it's chilling. - And do you have any, you know, just to wrap this one up, this one up before we move on to what you guys have planned for season two, is, you know, when you're in that mental state and you commit a crime like this, what are your plans? I mean, he obviously was caught in a stolen vehicle, you know, in a park, you think he had just had lost his mind and that was that at that point. You know, the flip, the switch had been flipped and it wasn't going to be flipped back. And so he just was running. - Yeah, well, my experience with people in that situation, paranoid schizophrenia is the one that we tend to run across most in the cops. Is that they don't have a plan. They've gone into that alternate reality and they're just living that moment to moment. It's not, I mean, he may have planned to follow Michael and it appears that that's exactly what he did, but there wasn't, he wasn't sitting down thinking of it before all of a sudden he decided Michael was a threat. - You didn't have an escape router, a plan, you know. - No, at the start of the day when he walked into that shop, he wasn't thinking, I'm going to kill this bloke and then I'm going. It was, this guy's a cop, I've got to send this message. I've cut his throat, now what do I do? - Did he just have a knife on him? - Still had the knife in the car. - But was that something that he was like, he was in possession of before it wasn't something that he picked up at the store? - No, no, we got CCTV footage of him buying that knife in Sydney a couple of days before. - Yeah, 'cause there was a receipt found in the car and he, about four days before the murder, he had to keep the receipt. So it was in the car, so yeah. - It's actually comfortable. - And see the sheaf, the sheaf was found at the crime scene on the road. So that was another major thing that was, you know, at the scene that we found was the sheaf. - He probably found himself in this situation that's just spiraled out of his control. - Sure. - And if you were planning to avoid detection, you wouldn't be sleeping in a Stalin car or in the middle of a major park in the center of Sydney. - Too sure. - That's a little give away. - It's very, very, very well thought up. Not at all, not at all. - Not correct. - Well, like it seems to be a case where you guys had a lot of good things happen for you in quick succession. And you guys have obviously taken a liking to this podcasting thing. And you guys have season two coming out. What should the audience expect after digesting or ingesting season one? - Well, it's actually out as of yesterday. So season two is the last fair. It's a, it's another heart-string story, isn't it, Rogues? - It is, yeah. - You but Hormosie was 53 and had suffered a lot of health complaints. You know, you think about how much bad like one person in Juha, he had a heart attack, he had a stroke, followed by another heart attack into sessions, successive years, sorry. And the stroke left him paralyzed. But yet he continued to work as a taxi driver. So he had a cab modified. So he was able to still go out and earn a living. You know, he didn't want, you know, he didn't want to be a burden 21. He wanted to be out and still learning and still out meeting people. So that was his passion, you know. And that's what he did until he come across his last fair. And if I guess people can tune in and listen, there's a few really what if, yeah, I think Bill of the, definitely the age of the offenders will be quite surprising for everyone involved. I think it was definitely a shock for us. It definitely wasn't anything that we were expecting. So. - And like series one, we've made contact with the family and we hear from them their words, not their voices, but there are some interesting twists in that side of it, but they get to tell their story about a father who was doing his best, despite the fact that he was paralyzed down one side. - Yeah, and then there's other, you know, things that these people go on and do, as well as not just this modern incident, that just, there's a series of escalations for us in the preceding hours after U of its death, that, you know, once we know the ages of, you know, the people involved and then you're looking at the crimes that are being committed and the escalation, it was definitely a period where we're, you know, we're sitting back on, you know, we've really got to apprehend these people before this results in someone else being killed. - Well, I am very confident that it's gonna be a very intriguing story and another one that you will not want to miss. And guys, I really appreciate you coming on the show. Where can people find you? I'm assuming Apple, Spotify, all the normal places. - All the normal places. - All the normal places. You guys have a website? - No, I'm like-- - Do not, Sarah's? - Through Sarah's? - Yep, okay. Sarah, Ferris, Media.com, do you think it is? - So we've got watching Two Detectives on, you know, we're all dudes now, Facebook, Instagram, it's the-- - Twitter. - TikTok page, maybe. I think Ropes has got the Twitter or X is the chord. So we're, you know, we're trying to get schooled in that. So if anyone can help us, please do. (laughing) Please do so. Come on with some suggestions. - One note is to, don't call it X, it's always Twitter. - Twitter. - See, there you go, right here. Go for the cut it out. - No, it's all good. No, this is, this is all the good stuff. This is how the sausage is made. So, you know, appreciate it again. I appreciate Sarah hooking us up and Evergreen getting us together. And you guys have a great show, great rapport, really cool backstory that not a lot of podcasts have. And me and your partners work together for six years and got to interrogate a lot of interesting individuals. I'm sure there's gonna be a lot of interesting stories coming down at the pike. So, gentlemen, thank you so much. Thank you, Bill, it's been a pleasure. Honestly, thank you. - Right, right. Thank you. - Thank you. - All right, I look forward to talking to you guys for season three. - Excellent, cheers, bud. - Cheers. Thank you guys so much for tuning into this week's episode of Who Killed. And thank you so much to Peter and Scott from watching Two Detectives. Check them out wherever you get your favorite podcasts. It's a very in-depth show and it will take you behind the scenes of what the cops do in these investigations. And it's definitely worth a listen and I highly recommend it. I thank Sarah for hooking us up. And again, many thanks to you guys for tuning in. As always, I do release episodes on Fridays and I will have another new episode next week regarding a follow-up to the Bob Crane episode. And that will be very interesting. So look forward to that. And again, thank you guys so much for tuning in. And as always, you can always find me on Twitter at Bill Huffman three. I am a little opinionated, but bear with it if you want and we're not. And again, thanks so much for listening. And as always, until next time, stay healthy and be safe. Hello everyone, my name is Tom Kearns and I host the Anglo-Saxon England podcast where I cover the history and culture of England from the departure of the Romans in the fifth century to the Norman Conquest in 1066. So far, we've surveyed the collapse of Roman rule in Britain, the migration of the Anglo-Saxons and the history of Northumbria from its beginnings in the mists of legend to its destruction at the hands of Viking raiders in the ninth century. I hope you'll come and give it a go. 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