On this week's episode of Crime Capsule, Benjamin Morris talks with producer extraordinaire Sarah Ferris of Evergreen Podcasts and her new show, Watching Two Detectives.
About Watching Two Detectives
Season One: "If Tomorrow Never Comes"
In our gripping first season, "If Tomorrow Never Comes," we unravel the chilling and complex murder of Michael Furlong. Unlike any crime story you've heard, this case twists on its axis with developments so shocking, they'd be dismissed as too unbelievable for a Hollywood script.
Scott Rogan and Peter Hogan are not just recounting the case; they're reopening the files with a personal connection that adds layers of depth and humanity to the narrative. Joined by the detective who led the investigation, Clive Ainly, this season offers unprecedented access to the people closest to the case. Michael's son Luke, who was only 11 at the time of his father's murder, and his ex-wife, Colleen, share their poignant journeys of seeking answers and closure.
This isn't just a recounting of facts; it's an exploration of the ripple effects of a single act of violence. From the crime scene that shook the detectives to their core to the heart-wrenching irony of Michael's last gift to his ex-wife—a CD featuring Ronan Keating's "If Tomorrow Never Comes"—this season brings you closer to the case than ever before.
Go beyond the headlines and the cold facts. Experience the human side of a true crime story, accompanied by those who lived through it. Hear directly from the detectives who worked the case and the family members still seeking answers.
Just when you think you've understood the case, new revelations emerge, each more surprising than the last.
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[Music] Welcome back to Crown capsule. I'm your host, Benjamin Morris. Let me start off just by saying thanks to everyone for joining us this past year for a really great third season of the show. We have had a fantastic run this time around looking at topics ranging from paranormal to lost cities, from cold cases for the winter season, to crimes of passion for the hot summer months. We even celebrated 100 episodes with some of our favorite authors and guests from the past few years. It's been a blast and we are grateful. So thank you. Today, we're dialing back the clock to just a few weeks ago, however, when we featured the hit new show, Watching Two Detectives, produced by Sarah Ferris for Evergreen Podcasts. We dropped that one on you almost without warning, partly because it was so good that as soon as it was released, we didn't want to wait any longer to share it. Well, today as we get ready to wrap up season three, we're thrilled to have Sarah herself on to talk about it. Watching Two Detectives is blowing up the charts and we are so excited to see where it goes. A longtime producer, educator, and expert storyteller across different forms of media, Sarah's work goes far beyond the download screen to have real measurable impact out in the world. And it is our privilege to welcome her on to the show. Sarah, welcome to Crime Capsule. Hi, thank you very much for having me, Ben. It is a real pleasure. You know, this is our last episode of our third season and we were so privileged to get to share one of your episodes of Watching Two Detectives a couple of weeks ago. It's really well done. Congratulations on that. Thank you so much. There's a lot of love that's gone into that production, that's for sure. It's very apparent. I mean, it's incredibly skillfully produced and it's a gripping case. And I'm sure that our listeners were on the edge of their seats as I was. Well, let me ask you this before we talk about that particular show. You produce quite a number of different podcasts. How did you get your start? Well, probably not like most people in podcasting. So my first podcast is called Conning the Con. And it all came about because my little sister actually swiped right on a serial con man. And when that happened, yeah, for real. So when that happened, we were kind of living in this Netflix drama. And for some reason, my sister Emma had the foresight to hit record and recorded literally 24 hours after she discovered what his real name was. And we sat on that recording and the unfolding drama that happened, which by the way, was absolutely crazy. We sat on that audio for a while and I was like, I don't know, I don't know how to make a podcast. But I'm sure that I can work it out because I was a big podcast listener, especially to crime. So I basically sat in my lounge and I've a COVID and got on GarageBand and pulled Conning the Con together. So that was my first podcast. And since then I've done several others. That one and then the next one are unfortunately both stories that happened to family members. So I try and stay away from those now if I can. Yeah, you don't want any more of those kind of hijinks affecting the folks. No, and I think people were starting to think people were starting to think I was the bad mojo in the family, I'm sure. No. Oh, no. Well, I doubt that very much on behalf of all of us here at crime capsule. So you mentioned that you had been interested in crime for a while was the criminal experience of your sister. Kind of the trigger for you to begin producing these things. Or had you always had kind of the idea or kind of a glimmer or a spark of the notion? I think I was always really interested in true crime particularly. But I did a social work degree when I was at university. So I was always really interested in the justice system and how we can reform when people go into prison and how effective that is. The society was something that was always interesting to me and obviously that criminal element kept falling in my lap. Unfortunately, so was my sister's case. And then as I said, the next podcast I did was called clueless the long con and that was actually a month after. My little sister discovered she had been conned literally the month after my parents and law discovered that they were in one of the largest Ponzi schemes. Yeah, so it wasn't necessarily that I thought I would carry on doing true crime. In fact, I do have other podcasts that aren't crime related. I have a sustainability podcast and a wellness podcast. But true crime is really my passion because I like to make media with purpose as my tagline. And, you know, hitting away from that old age of unethical true crime. I want to make sure that the stories really have purpose. And whether that's educating people on the red flags of con artists, which we do with psychologists and conning the con. Or I have one with the former head of the FBI's active shooter program, Katherine Schweick called stop the killing. And we discuss how we can make the community safer by being aware of, you know, the hurdles that we can put in place to stop mass shootings, not just in America globally. So, yeah, that's kind of the purpose and that's where I've fallen, to be honest. I think when you're in that space, those stories keep coming to you. They find you after a while. You know, you don't have to look as hard. No, exactly. I do want to ask you about watching two detectives because it really is phenomenal. It's so well done. And it is such an interesting story. I mean, you, the case itself, of course, revolves around a very terrible, you know, one of the worst acts of senseless, you know, random killing that I certainly have encountered. But before we get to sort of the details of it, I mean, tell us how did this show get started? What was the origin of that? It's such a good actually segue from the last conversation we had because, you know, when we're talking about stories finding you after a while, the reason that I connected with Scott and Peter, and this is an absolute nobody else knows this is a crime capsule exclusive. Oh, an exclusive business feels very special. What happened was I heard a listener of con in the con and clueless reach out to me and want me to have a look into a specific person that they thought was also a con artist. Now, I mean, this story is crazy, but he was a fake admiral, essentially. Well, yeah, so when I started pulling on the threads of the story of the bad moral, stay tuned. That's the next podcast coming out. Wonderful. I love it. Bad moral. That's great. Coming soon. So when I started pulling on the threads of like whether this guy was real or not, the two threads that I pulled first was Scott Rogan and Peter Hogan, who happened to be victims of the bad moral. And so Scott, when I first talked to him, I was like, okay, I think this guy is a wrong and whatever. And we started just working together on trying to pull the threads of the bad moral, and as that sort of relationship was built, he was like, you know what, I've always sort of thought of some great stories of the work that we've done. And I've always wanted to do a podcast and I was kind of a bit like, Oh, well, you know, everybody says that. Show me what you got. And the first recordings that we did, you know, were completely sort of higgledy piggly. There was no direction. It was just these guys downloading and then they would interview different people and blah, blah, blah, blah. But then they, so we had lots of different sort of ideas for episodes. But what happened with this first season was the story is of Michael Furlong's murder. And when Scott and Peter reached out to Michael's family to say, listen, we'd like to cover Michael's murder in the podcast that we're thinking about creating. Would you be okay. It was actually Luke, Michael son who was 10 at the time of the murder, and was now as he picks up the phone to Scott and Peter is now on his 30s. And he said, Oh my gosh, I have been waiting 20 years to speak to the detectives that solved my father's case. And from that moment, we kind of like the whole season just turned into something completely different and something really special. And I don't think it's, there's not very often that you have the detectives that solve the case that have that full circle closure with the victims family because they are by design, genuinely kept apart when the investigation is going on. So, you know, it was, it was a very different story that popped out of it. And I think probably unexpected for all involved. Yeah, you know, I have to say, in listening to the show and hearing the way that the family's voices are given just such prominence. I mean, you speak to Colleen, you speak to your son, you know, you speak to, of course, Peter Scott, you know, are sort of leading us through the case. You know what I found so interesting. I mean, number one was the way that you do give such airtime and, and sort of pride of place to how this affected them as a family and how willing and open they were to speak about it. It's very moving. Now, before we get to that point, we probably need to say what happened. Right, I'm sure our listeners are sort of like, you know, wait, what is this case even about, you know, five steps ahead there. Let's, let's back up and just tell us a little bit about this particular incident, this murder, and, and why it was so gripping to everybody who was involved. I hope I can do it justice has been a while since I edited it so I mean the story was will obviously stay with me as it did with the detectives and everybody involved once you hear it you can't un un hear it. But simply Michael and his brother had been going to an electronic shop to pick up items that were unbelievably for, he was Michael was designing something that would save people's lives and stop them falling asleep at the wheel. So he was picking up electronic components. Now, when he was in one of the stores, just by happenstance by complete, you know, sliding doors, he crosses paths with his murderer. And that guy in the CCTV footage, you can see stalking him. But it's not until Michael and his brother leaves and go 15 minutes down the road to another electronic store that they actually talk for the first time. He just comes out of the electronic store and at that stage there's an incident where the murderer gets Michael into a position where he is able to pull out a very large hunting knife and just slashes his throat and there's no other way to say it is horrific and just entirely tragic and those murders by strangers I think are probably some of the hardest to understand. And just for context we should say this is this happened about 20 years ago this is in 2002 and it was in a small sort of neighborhood of Sydney in Australia called Smithfield. And it was fascinatingly it was in a very busy intersection on a very busy road which made the kind of the fact that this meant this man committed the homicide in basically full view it was getting dark is about five o'clock in the evening but it was in full view on a very busy street lots of traffic all around and it was random and it was just completely random there was no prior connection between the perpetrator and the victim whatsoever and it was all these elements sort of come together to just make it shocking but also perplexing, you know, as you're listening you're sort of like what led to this, I mean it's very very strange in that respect and there are I think quite a lot of unanswered questions as we learn more about it and how did you handle the unanswered aspect of it this sort of sense of mystery and kind of confusion about how this all came to be how I mean I think there's just moments where I was just jaw on the floor as I was listening to the raw audio as I was going through editing and there's moments in there where, you know, the perpetrator is actually like I would consider him to be the definition of an evil genius because the links that he's gone to and we uncover his past, it's just frightening, absolutely frightening and then, you know, there's just so many twists and turns in it that there's even like, you know, I mean it's just crazy, there's even like, is it poison toothpaste in there that he thinks he's being poisoned by his toothpaste and that he's being listened to by the Australian Federal Police There's so many elements that are just like a James Bond movie, Supervillain, but yeah I mean the thing is, I'd just like to go back also and just say thank you so much for picking up on the fact that we gave the voices to the family so much because one thing that I do in my other podcast is we don't name the perpetrators and stop the killing because of the contagion effect with mass shootings but it's also something I'm very conscious about is to try and make the narrative book ended by the story of the family first and not the perpetrator and I think it's important to understand how everything unfolded and why it unfolded but also to always bring it back to that this person was somebody's loved one and really special on on crime capsule our listeners know we we talk a lot about the difference between aftermath and closure and we actually don't don't really believe in closure you know closure is not something that many people get and even then it just doesn't prove to be that over time right we live in the aftermaths of these things and it's very moving to hear how Colleen and the boys tried to reestablish a sense of normalcy after this and she says very explicitly at one point you know after they lost their dad that you know this is what he would have wanted for his sons right and it's sort of like I just that touched me you know in a way I was sort of like yeah that's exactly right that is absolutely right that she wanted to get them back into school even though you know it was hard on them and spend time with their friends again and so forth and this thing is sort of following them around but yeah it's what he would have wanted for them to try to find a new way forward right and to make the very best you know out of an awful situation and I just thought that it did such such honor you know to his memory and that respect I thought that I mean that Colleen and Luke you know really special people to be able to share the worst moments of their lives with us so candidly and so honestly and very raw but I thought it was really there was a moment in the podcast where Colleen talks about and I think it's probably an episode four where she talks about how she never wanted the boys to remember that day of Michael that's not the day that she wanted them to remember because everything before that he was just such a loving father and so he was bigger than that one day and he shouldn't be defined by it no that makes perfect sense and just a really really beautiful kind of testimony there and I'll say that one of the things that makes despite the tragedy one of the things that makes learning about this case and journeying through it just so reassuring in a way is the presence of a Peter and Scott I mean they're great right and the two of them are just I mean what what a duo you know because I was kind of curious about their backstory because because they slot right in yeah it is so impressive to hear them know in a very challenging situation where time is of the essence to know exactly what to do and frankly Sarah I thought one of the most interesting sequences in the entire show was that early discussion of how they established the crime scene and established the perimeter around it along with with Clive right there yeah sort of the other investigator because one would think a naive or sort of a newish detective might think well the crime scene is focused on the body right or the body and the car you know where he was where he was murdered but actually it's much much broader than that and to hear them say we've got to get this circle as wide as possible because we're going to have to collect every single little bit of evidence I thought that was such a shrewd move right out of the gate yeah and I think I mean you alluded to earlier as well I thought one of the things that stuck in my mind that was quite fascinating is when I think it's Peter talking about how they have to interview the victim straight afterwards and how it is the hardest thing like it really is the hardest thing to do but they have to do it right because they only want to do it once for the victim's sake and you know that the way they honor that as well and are so mindful of it I mean those are some buzzwords that wouldn't have been around 20 years ago but they fit quite nicely in here yeah they do and it is interesting because we should also say just for sort of clarity there were nearly two murders that night right so the assailant does kill Michael and he attempts to kill Michael's brother who's able to sort of flee the scene in shock and in horror you know he's able to sort of get away you know in the sort of heat of the moment he is actually able to escape and the assailant does not continue to pursue him after after a time and that actually proves very important right I mean for the development of the investigation and so forth but yes to have to interview you know Michael's brother right after that must have been just extraordinarily challenging and I can only imagine for everybody involved you know what that was like but they handle it was such compassion and such skill it's really remarkable in subsequent episodes we we learn a good bit more about the killer and it is there's some really really strange things going on there I'm not going to spoil them we want everybody to have the chance to kind of listen for themselves and and kind of you know dive a little deeper into this particular case but but it is interesting to me that quite early on there is they do find a smoking gun right and the smoking gun happens to be this the murder weapon in a car and it is across town right so they find someone sleeping in a stolen car I looked on the map and Smithfield is not close to Centennial Park where this car is not close and so I was just kind of curious you know how when you learned about how much evidence was found in this particular vehicle with the assailant you know associated with it and so forth and they bring him in did you think as you were hearing about this case oh they've got him it's cut and dried it's over you know like we're done here because that does not prove to be the case no exactly and I also think like the most incredible and a Clive always says it so well he says we had a bit of luck and they had just a bit of luck when they say luck they had good policemen on the job who weren't related to that case at all who happened to be doing their job and checking on a person sleeping in a car miles away from as you say the actual crime scene so that was literally just you know luck that those two kind of things happened if that person if the perpetrator had slept there overnight and been completely un you know unwoken by that police putting the flashlight in the car we have no idea what way what way it would have gone afterwards because it could have been a lot worse in terms of victims so they did a great great job doing that and then again we have a sort of the sliding doors moments all the way through at the police station where they take this guy to a different police station and they've got to put those two and two together and how they do that is quite incredible you know I'm again somebody who's just happens to be listening who's not related to the case but knows about the murder is the person that puts that together and brings Clive over so it's so many so many sliding doors that you think wow that case would not have been solved had it not been for those policemen on the beat knocking on that window yeah it's remarkable yeah the near the near misses the number of sort of near misses and you know sort of lucky strikes and that sort of is just exactly they just keep piling on that's just that you know and you're right that's gonna be the case yeah and they think they've got him at that stage but of course that turns out you know it's just the start of a journey it is it is and I want our listeners to be able to experience it for themselves because it really is an extraordinary extraordinary story now let us zoom out just a little bit here from the details of the case and I'm curious I wanted to ask you Sarah this is a little tricky question I've got a couple of tricky questions and they're tricky on my end so I take responsibility for anything that is clumsily asked but I'm gonna try anyway I'm curious what was the larger profile of this case of Michael for longs murder did it have any impact on issues regarding public safety in the city of Sydney or the state of New South Wales did it have any did it result in any changes to sort of criminal law or how police handle homicides you see it and getting out it's kind of what was the impact larger once once it was in fact you know resolved yeah well I mean there was definitely impact some of it isn't resolved now but you know one of the things that did get changed because of this case later years is that the criminal actually the perpetrator actually changed his name whilst he was in custodial care his last name and the family were only informed of that you know after the fact and that raised a lot of questions you know about well why is somebody that's in custodial care and I don't want to give too much about where he ended up but you know he ended up in custody of some description and should that person then be able to go and change their name so that did change after after this case and you can now people that are in the system cannot go and change their last name that's fascinating thankfully because right obviously they get out and then there's no kind of history or link between what this person had done and who they have now presented themselves as so that was one element of it hmm no that's great that's that's very encouraging to hear that let me ask you another tricky question and it's tricky because it is ever so slightly political and it's a question I suppose from the perspective of an American who you know does live in a country where we have the absolute highest rate of mass shootings where gun violence is the number one leading cause you know across the board you know homicides and this case is set in a country and took place in a country where gun laws are very very tight they are very strict and you know Australia regulations on you know what person can and can't own and so forth are much much more stringent than they are here and as a result I have heard it said sometimes Sarah that you know homicides if you were forced to use other implements then then a gun like a knife say or you know a cudgel or whatever it might be homicides can be more personal right it's sort of more likely there's a more you're more likely to have to know the person you know that there's a dispute there's a beef it's not just a random kind of act that you get is there any does that hold any water to you or or I mean in your previous work on other shows as you've explored you know these kinds of topics do you how do you see the relationship between say firearms controls and types of crimes occurring across these different contexts Hmm that is quite the doozy of the big question isn't it yeah and let me let me let me just can't contextualize it by saying I mean here you have someone who purchases a very large hunting knife yeah and then uses it to commit you know a murder hours or days days later if somebody he doesn't know at all right is obviously mental illness involved but I mean it is you know in order to kill somebody with a knife you have to get up close and personal that's kind of what I'm trying trying to understand yeah I totally agree and I think that's part of the interesting nature of this case as well as trying to unpick why you would what would motivate somebody to do that I think that it's quite chilling to think that somebody could come up to you and do that whereas with you know I as I mentioned before I think a co host a show called stop the killing with the former head of the FBI's active shooter program Catherine Yeah and now we came at that podcast it was literally created because of that question of me being outside the US coming to her and saying what is the deal why don't you just get rid of all the guns and you know over four seasons of stop the killing I have learned that it is just not that easy to get rid of all the guns in America you've got quite a nuanced problem there but having said that you know we always zoom out on on stop the killing and look at other countries and what they're doing we recently did a case of an episode where we had Stephen Keough who is a former homicide detective from Scotland Yard and Catherine on it and he bought all the UK figures and smashed them against the US ones and we kind of just always bring the research and the numbers and it's not a political podcast at all it's literally just here's the numbers and the facts yeah let's talk about is this country doing it better what can we learn from it is this country doing it better can we learn from it and particularly you know you talk about Australia Australia's got the stringent the stringent gun laws because of the port Arthur massacre they had a massacre their bomb straight away guns you know gun laws change same with New Zealand we had the Christ Church mosque shootings you know straight away actions taken but these are mechanisms of government that are a lot easier to move then then the US set up so it's really nuanced but it's not hopeless either is the one thing that I would say in the in the US I mean we know that we've had just last year we had a listener who was an assistant principal who wrote into us and said that because of the things that she learned in the podcast they actually had a child with access to weapons a two-year plan a list imminent shooting and because they had all of the thread assessment teams and see something say something attitude and stuff that should learn from Catherine on the podcast they swung into action and actually stopped a school shooting so it's really it was I mean I cried a lot that day we all got it was incredible and you know when you look at the stats even the recent FBI figures have come out for mass shootings for 2024 I think or 23 rather it would have been the year before the year before it was 60 this year and I'm sorry I think it was I don't want to get these numbers wrong so don't quote me but literally it was too less this following year and I thought to myself wow one of those one of those because of your work potentially is you know that the message is getting out there and people are being active and making the community safe so yeah it's not hopeless but it everybody needs to be part of the solution that is extraordinary and that is the best thing I have heard weeks I mean you must I can understand the weeping but you also must have just been on cloud nine just for days on it I mean when I say like I make media with purpose like when I did conning the con it was we make it we stop one person being conned job done box text and straight away we had people writing and saying that so when we did stop the killing we had you know this lofty goal that perhaps one day it might just slow something down or something might happen but we never had that so when that happened it was like job done box text you know I love it I've got one or two more questions for you but I do want to ask let's stay on that note of hope while we can you know working in true crime can sometimes be a dark place you know I mean we're just we'd have to live for a while in an in a dark world and you know it's mental illness it can be any number of different things which which we have to kind of immerse ourselves in as we're researching and writing and producing and so forth and somebody asked me this question recently and I was very grateful to get to think about it and I wanted to pass the same question on to you which was how do you get out of that hole how do you get out of the deep end you know how do you come back into the light and make yourself whole again to find those notes of hope or to you know do you do you sort of find a room full of puppies and kittens and just say you know everything's going to be okay or you know right absolutely yeah what do you do to kind of like bring yourself back to sanity and to and to you see what I'm getting at yeah I do I do I mean I think on on that like you know top note of if you asked me what I do to pull myself out of it yeah I go and hang out with my family I go and you know be with my animals that's for cats a dog you know there's always a fur baby but on a deeper level I think what holds me to have that like recovery from those traumatic stories is that my purpose is always so strong in making them and that is that as hard as those stories are there's a reason that I'm telling them and there is a hope that somebody else will be protected from hearing it and you know in particularly you know in watching two detectives what has been quite unique is that it's been unexpected who's been helped by telling the story and as you go through the most powerful thing in the first season of watching two detectives is the what's the word like the healing for Luke for long the sun and it's this arc of his story starting out with the pain and then having this all these years later 20 years later having this sort of you know full circle moment and he doesn't hide the fact that it is probably the best thing that he's ever had more than all the therapy so that's been quite unique and I have to say coming up in season two of watching two detectives I've just finished it, it's three episodes and it is the story of you but homosie who was a taxi driver in Sydney who was killed by the youngest perpetrators that Scott and Peter ever dealt with and it is a shocking case but again the unexpected side effect of making this and telling this story is that I received an email yesterday which was the message from the daughter who is featured in the podcast but not her voice I actually would like read her words in the podcast and how incredibly honored it was you know she felt sorry she felt very honored and that her father's memory was honored and it was a really healing event for her as well so yeah I think to answer your question the very long way round sorry is I find hope and purpose marvelous that is that is that is more beautiful than I could have ever imagined thank you thank you for that Sarah now season two we're all very excited about season two coming out when when might we get to put in our headphones and get to work I don't know I have not scheduled it yet but I will because I'm just you know just it was a very strong launch for season one so it kind of took me by surprise and I need to get my my A&G as we say in New Zealand and get it get it scheduled so stay tuned it'll be in the next month or so but already season three is turning out to be quite quite the cracker of a series as well so lots of lots of space to watch this face well we will and we will with baited breath Sarah this is this is a pleasure tell us before we before we head off to to the pub tell us where can folks find you how can they get a hold of your work your shows yeah so probably the best place is my website you can go to Sarah Ferris media dot com and you can follow me on instagram at con unity that's con with an in con unity podcast and of course you can follow watching two detectives as well on instagram and on twitter or ex yes whatever they're calling it these guys watching two detectives there you go real yet well thank you so much we again we were just so privileged to get to to share a little airtime in your encrops stool in the last last few weeks come so we're all super excited about what there is coming down the pike thank you so very much this has been a real pleasure thank you thank you so much thanks for listening our guest has been Sarah Ferris producer of watching two detectives available on evergreen podcasts dot com join us next week for a special bonus episode featuring a blast from the past and a brand new conversation as ever no spoilers but we're looking forward to celebrating our community here in the next couple of weeks we will hope to see you then thanks as always to our producer Bill Huffman, our production director, Bridget Cohen, audio engineer Ian Douglas and our executive producers Michael DeLoya and Gerardo Orlando I'm your host Benjamin Morris 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