IBJ‘s The Freedom Forum with Angela B. Freeman

The Freedom Forum: Jasmine Park, Indianapolis Colts

Jasmine Park is the Vice President of People, Culture, and Inclusion for the Indianapolis Colts. In keeping with our focus on professional sports this year, Jasmine dropped by the studio to discuss her experience as a diverse woman in sports and how she was able to be particularly influential in the interview and hiring process that resulted in The Colts’ new head coach. Jasmine also described how she intentionally and authentically works to mentor, educate, and empower the younger generation of diverse leaders to be successful in sports and/or any career they desire to pursue in Indiana.

Broadcast on:: 25 Sep 2024
Audio Format:: other

[MUSIC PLAYING] If you're sure about how you want to pursue a career in sports, it's a lot of hard work. And I tell people, you need to be willing to give up free time and really pursue your dream. I don't care what the profession is. Nobody achieved the success that you deemed to be the pinnacle of someone's career by just clocking in 9 to 5. [MUSIC PLAYING] That was Jasmine Park, VP of People, Culture, and Inclusion at the Indianapolis Colts, talking about how she intentionally and authentically works to empower the younger generation of diverse talent to be successful in any career they desire. And this is IBJ's "The Freedom Forum" with Angela B. Freeman. So Jasmine, thank you so much for joining us on "The Freedom Forum" with Angela B. Freeman. As you know, 2024 has been a phenomenal year for Indianapolis sports, culture, and entertainment events. And I've been speaking with executives responsible for Indianapolis' major sports organizations. And of course, there is no more sport, more synonymous, with this city than the Indianapolis Colts. But before we get started, will you please tell our listeners a bit about you, your educational and professional background, and any other factors that have led to you becoming the vice president of People, Culture, and Inclusion at the Indianapolis Colts. Hi, Angela. Thank you so much for that warm welcome and inviting me to join you on your podcast. It's an honor to be here today. I'm thrilled and very much looking forward to our conversation, because I hope it's just that for the listeners. It's not you talking at me or me talking at you. We're just going to shoot the breeze. And hopefully, it's going to be informative and entertaining for anybody who chooses to listen in on us. I am Jasmine Park. I am, as you said, the VP of People, Culture, and Inclusion for the Indianapolis Colts, which is just a fancy way of saying I'm the head of HR and DE&I for the organization. And what you need to know about me is pretty straightforward. I'm a Hoosier, born and bred in the lovely state of Indiana. I am a Korean American. I am a daughter, a sister, and a professional who's dedicated in all those roles. I am a proud IU Bloomington grad. And I lovingly refer to those years as the best four years of my 20s. I had me a great time. Yeah, yeah. As you should. Yeah. And I'm also a product going way back. I'm a Hoosier through and through. I went to the public schools, IPS in Indiana, and also went to a Parochra school in Speedway, Indiana. So these are my stomping grounds. And so I start there because how I ended up with Indianapolis Colts, it almost seems faded because I do believe blue. And as much as I love all team sports, especially the teams in this state, I admire the effort and energy that it takes to perform at a professional level. And being a part of an organization that is synonymous with, like you said, the epitome of Indy and what it stands for in the excellence and the pursuit of excellence, I'm just thrilled to be a part of this conversation with so many great representation across all sports in our state. How I got to the position is a bit of a longer story, but what you need to know about me in a nutshell is I am a very authentic person that wants to be of service in my professional and personal life. And I believe that following your passion is the ultimate goal in anything that you do. Most of us have choices in everything that in the first world, everything that we choose to pursue. And I'm actually on this podcast here with you because you said something that really piqued my interest. And I need to know a little bit more about Angela and what she's doing on that podcast because you said to me and you said it in a way that was almost endearing, but also it felt really good to meet an adult in this phase of my life where you said, I'm so glad I found you. And as you know, this is a big small city. And that you found me in this phase of our lives. I feel like this podcast episode was meant to be. And so I'm looking forward to this conversation, but I wanna be of service in this conversation. - Thank you for that. And we are super excited to have you here. And you know I'm excited to have this conversation. So let's talk about how you got to your role just a little bit. When I looked at your background, it seems that you have experience in payroll and human resources in the IT world and the auto industry and in healthcare. So how can you or please explain how some of those other experiences in HR have led to your learnings and expertise that have prepared you for your current role at the Coles? - I'll start with the summarization to answer that question is it is the culmination of every single work experience that I've had up to this point that prepared me for when this opportunity to work at the Indianapolis Coles organization came to me. So through all of the work experiences, lived life experiences, the good, bad and the ugly, all of the above is what prepared me to be prepared when the opportunity came to me, to be the head of this club, but also the road was a little meandering. There were a lot of ups and downs and it was not a linear journey. So I knew at a very young age, being the first generation of Korean American and our family, that education was gonna be the key to my future professional success. But I wasn't that kid that knew exactly what I wanted to do with the rest of my life. I think that might resonate with more than one or two others that are listening in on this podcast, but I knew that college was in my future and I had a supportive family structure where I could go to college, but I just didn't really know what I wanted to do with the degree and didn't know what I was even interested in. So I made the decision that was very safe. I got a business degree, major didn't accounting and not that I have any regrets about that, but at the time that felt like a very safe decision and as somebody paying for her way through college, that was the good decision as much of a good decision that I could have possibly made as a 19 year old. But I realized soon after getting the degree that while I was good with numbers, I did not want to spend the rest of my life looking at numbers, spreadsheets were not very exciting to me and even at an early age, it just didn't feel right. You know, you could be good at something and not like it and I wanted more for myself. I just didn't know what it was. So I say that because it was because I had an accounting degree that I had an opportunity to kind of get work experience, to see what I didn't like, to back into what I do like and where my strengths were. And I share that because whenever I meet young talent who want to break into sports, I always just tell them, hey, it might not be your first job. It might not even be your second job. But keep your eye on the prize and learn what you're good at, excel where you are and make sure that you are living to the fullest and performing at your best because otherwise you're wasting your time and waiting for the other side of the rainbow or the grass that looks greener and that day might not come for you tomorrow or on your own timeline. For me, it took probably 10 years of actual honing my skills and knowing what I'm good at and knowing what I'm not good at, knowing what I like, knowing what I don't like. Over the course of many years in working in HR adjacent roles when given the opportunity and then there was a certain point in time in my career where I made the conscious decision to solely pursue human resources as my chosen profession. And at that time, I made that decision because I knew my strengths were in people operations and strategically solving people problems in the workplace and being impactful in curating cultures and making sure that the best interests of the organization and the employees were support was always being received out of any area that I was in charge of. So it took me 10 years to really figure it out and it probably took me 10 years to be prepared for when this aspirational role for this incredible organization came to me. What you outlined is what I call the access and exposure deficit. Meaning you talked about you were smart, you knew you were going to college, that solo lines with my life knew I was going to college, had been taught that education was the key to freedom and liberty and access, but had no idea. Okay, so what do I do with this education? What jobs are really out there for me? And part of that was just lack of exposure, not knowing being there for me, you were here, but for me it was being in a rural community that you just didn't have exposure to all the things that kids-- - The possibilities. - Exactly, absolutely. And so even when you have that access and exposure, it typically takes a while to figure out what you truly are passionate about. I preach the same thing you do that learning what you don't like is as great a lessons as learning what you do like, right? - Absolutely. - All of that helps align you to the role, the opportunity, the positions that will really feed your passions and your desire. It seems like you have just like I have the need to be of service in some kind of way. So I really appreciate that. And we'll talk about that a bit more when we talk about some other topics, but I wanna ask before we get too far away from the Colts and your team at the Colts, what you're doing at the Colts, I wanna ask you, what have you and your team accomplished in your time at the Colts that you're particularly proud of? And I ask that because I read recently that you were particularly instrumental in utilizing some of your HR and DE&I strategies to help hire the Colts' new head coach Shane Steichen. And that seemed to be like a really big deal, a novel approach to hiring a head coach. So I want you to tell us more about that and how you implemented this revolutionary approach to hiring Mr. Steichen as the head coach of the Indianapolis Colts. - That definitely is an experience that I will never forget the genesis of that whole endeavor. I'll have to roll back and start at the beginning of my tenure with the Colts organization. The opportunity came to me and I started in this new role during the height of the pandemic. So back in 2020 is when I started and if everybody remembers the chaos of the time, the uncertainty of the time, how those of us in leadership positions were making decisions based on guesses, not knowing what the next day or next week held. It was a very difficult endeavor to achieve success in any role now that the world was turned upside down and the role as you knew it was just not the same for most people and for myself having come into a new organization. So learning the organization was new, understanding what impact is needed, whether they knew it or not, meeting people where they are in, okay, now that I'm here, what is gonna be my new purpose in bringing people support where it's needed to support ultimately the team so that ultimately we can win games. And so it takes people and it truly takes all of us that works at the Colts organization to do that. Of course, mostly players, but those of us behind the scenes in the grid iron do make an impact in ensuring that the business is also supportive of the game being played. And during that time, the kind of holy grail for myself and my immediate team members was to establish a stable and solid. These all sound like boring attributes, but HR is not sexy. It's hard work, it's consistency, it's persistence. And those are almost synonymous for what it takes to be, a great organization and a great team, but the pandemic variable of what you can and cannot do, how close you could be with someone, are you masked, are you not masked? There's certain protocols. And when you work for a sports team, there are additional kind of league wide mandates that are even more restrictive. And one of the things ultimately now looking back that I'm most proud of is even though there were physical barriers, even though there were organizational logistical legacy type barriers and everybody was trying to learn a new way. And I was just trying to hang on for the ride, but with myself and my team, what I'm most proud of is having built the level of trust that it takes to be a part of such an important event as an all inclusive talent acquisition process and hiring the most arguably, the most important position for the organization, which is the head coach. Kudos to the ownership of the cultural organization, the executive personnel who believed in the process and believed that an inclusive and adverse outcome to hire the best person for the job requires intentional effort. You don't accidentally get yourself to that point. And it was a very exhaustive process and it wasn't for the faint of heart and everybody was all in. And just to talk to you now and just summarize, it isn't doing it justice, but I can sit here and tell you that every single person that was involved in every single interview and every single moment of that entire month was all in. And we were locked in and ensuring that whomever we hired was the absolute best person for the job, but the intentionality in ensuring that everybody got a shot was what I'm most proud of. - That's so powerful because what we've learned is it takes intentionality to your point. You don't just happen up on the best person and you have to be intentional. And what we're learning is when you throw the net wide and get all the best and diverse talent, then you really have a better feel, a better grasp of what the talent level is, what the needs are for your organization. And then you're better equipped to truly select the best talent for the organization. And I appreciate that because as I do this podcast and speak to so many companies who are on their own individual journey in diversity, equity and inclusion, what that looks like for their organization, is pretty compelling for me to hear that the Colts and the leadership of the Colts were intentional around their need to consider all the talent to truly know that they selected the best talent for their organization. I think more of us, more organizations, more companies need to take that wider, broader approach. You end up getting to the best person anyway, but it leaves no question as to whether did we do the work, were we intentional? And then you come out with the best outcome and that's what we've learned. The impact of DE&I is on business, whether it's selecting the head coach, whether it's profitability, whether it's teams, building teams, whatever the case. So that's really encouraging to hear that you had the foresight back in the pandemic to appreciate how that could be applied in an organization like the Colts to truly get the best outcome. And we're hoping that that best outcome is seen on the football field this year. We're excited about that. - You let me vote. - Okay, so align with your background and communications. I appreciate that women in all industries face their unique challenges regarding institutional biases and barriers, challenges related to their advancement. And you've already indicated you are a Korean American woman who's been here in Indiana. You're clearly a diverse woman in sports. So I want to know about your experience ascending to leadership in that environment. What have you found to be particular strengths that you bring to your team? And are there any experiences that you're willing to share that exemplify some of the continued and unique challenges, whether it's biases or microaggressions or other barriers that women often face when they're on a career path to leadership in Indiana and all across the country? - I'm Korean American. And in the state of Indiana growing up, I shared with you in an earlier conversation that we had, it was mostly a black and white population. Those of us that are in the brown category that was far a few between. And it's not unusual for me back then. And sometimes even now, depending on exactly where I am in the city to be the only one that looks like me in the room. And then amplify that with working in male dominated industries in my profession. And then sometimes that can be, I'm then the only minority female in the room. But growing up in Indiana, that it has normalized for me a little bit because it's not so unusual until somebody points it out to me. The fact that I am the minority times two person in the room, in the workplace, interestingly enough, my ethnicity and race usually doesn't become the largest factor in the room and how others treat me. It's usually my gender. And how many times have you heard professional women in the workplace say, well, I just said the same thing, but there's somebody over there who happens to be a man that said it after I did and then gets the credit for it. Where then everybody's all of a sudden agreeing with that sentiment where you're sitting there thinking, oh, well, I could just warn, I said the same thing five minutes ago. But those situations happen so often that it doesn't phase me so much. It's interesting. I like to use my differences. And maybe it's just because over the years I've learned, I can't change the way I look. I can't, won't, don't want to change my gender. How can I empower myself into leaning into what makes me different, makes me special, what makes me different, makes me stronger? That's how I add value. To me, it's a true definition of diversity in the workplace is my lived experience and my cognitive differences in how I perceive situations is different. And that is valued in the organization that I work for, but trying to blend in only goes so much because you're just gonna be different in how others react to your differences. While you can't control that, what you can control is what you do with those differences. So I'm generally soft-spoken. If you saw me in person, you'll see that I'm small-statured. And so I can't fill up a space in a room by just walking in. I'm not six-foot tall, you know, wearing a three-piece suit. So anybody who knows me knows I'm very authentic. I lean into whatever humor I can find in a situation. If it doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger and you gotta laugh along the way. And what you're gonna get is what you see. And so I always like to encourage women specifically to find your superpower. And that superpower is gonna be something that makes you a little bit different than everybody else. - So let me ask you, I completely understand that sentiment. I've lived it. I talk a lot to women's organizations and women's groups about leveraging the power of being the only one or one of you. So many times, diverse people talk about, oh my goodness, I'm the only one and I feel so out of place. I've learned and I think what I'm hearing from you is you've learned to leverage that difference. Leverage the fact that you're the only woman or the only minority woman or the only Korean American woman or the only black woman in the room. If all eyes are gonna be on me anyway, then let me show you something, right? I mean, that's kinda how I lean into it. - You even said it to me. You were like, I'm so glad I found you because you wanted to hear a different perspective. - Absolutely. - And you want being who you are, you know, with your growth mindset and being ever curious, you're like, yes, give me a different point of view. Yes, teach me about your experience. - Absolutely. - Which may or may align with mine as two minority women of a certain age. - You sure? - You don't get to be a certain age, hopefully without learning some things along the way. And I don't know about you, but there's been some failures in my past and while I was going through them, it was rough, but looking back, it made me who I am today and it certainly now prepares me in the role that I have to have a little bit of mastery in dealing with difficult human issues that happen in the workplace. - And as it relates to D&I and preparing, so you and I are talking from a vantage point of having been in the workplace for a little while, having a little more wisdom and seniority under our belt, but we are also both very committed to mentoring diverse talent, particularly young emerging diverse talent. And I appreciate that often we discuss the lack of exposure in education in our communities. We talked about it earlier. In other words, there are often diverse folks who often just don't know what you don't know, right? You can't know what you don't know and don't have the exposure access or resources to get that education. So what barriers have you seen now that you've kind of told us your background, particularly being from Indiana, but being a diverse woman in Indiana, what barriers have you seen many diverse people face when they're trying to find equitable opportunities in business where there are not a lot of people who may necessarily look like them. And how can current leaders, diverse or not, help support that emerging diverse talent that's trying to become established in their career, but simply are uninformed about the rules of engagement or how you establish yourself or how you position yourself to get a mentor or to put yourself in position to get an opportunity that otherwise you may not. What's some of your advice that you give to people? - I'm gonna start with that last sentence because it's so important. And I try to preach it as often as I can is seek to learn from those that seem to have achieved the level of success that you desire for yourself. And when I say that, it's not, hey, Mrs. Freeman, would you please be my mentor? It's more of an invitation for coffee, five-minute hallway conversation. If you happen to see me in the hallway, it's asking me a question in the elevator. It's unofficial is the term, I didn't coin that, but somebody said that to me and it resonated is unofficial mentorships abound. Those opportunities, the pockets of inspiration can come to you if you're willing to listen and proactively seek to learn. That's so important because that, you don't know what you don't know, but you're never gonna know if you don't pursue it. And success doesn't come to people by accident. Anybody that you see, probably famous, or athletes, in general, if they seem like overnight successes, that's just because they made it on the radar of media. Any one of them will probably tell you the years and years of hard work and grinding and the hours and the dedication and all the pain and suffering that went through it, but they never lost sight of their dreams. And so I feel like there is a lack of, I need to seek the knowledge. And also though, conversely then, I don't know what I don't know. So how do I even find people to ask the questions? And a huge part of that then now is, I'm gonna say networking is the word I'm gonna use, but that also seems a little bit formal, is put yourself in environments where those people are there. And I find a lot of young talent don't love doing that. It feels awkward, it feels like work, it's not fun. But I always say networking isn't supposed to be fun. Unless you're a really outgoing person and everybody's your best friend and you can sell ice in Alaska, then good for you, it's a good time. But this is helping yourself, is getting in front of people to ask them, hey, what was your journey like? Or what do I do with this? Or how do I get into that? There has to be some ownership of asking the how questions. And so as much as those of us that are in seats to pay it forward and be of help and service to others to achieve their aspirational professional goals and live out their dreams. I also want to talk to the young talent to say, you know, you can't just sit back and have it come to you. There's those of us that are gonna help you open the doors, but you're gonna have to step up and prove yourself. So in the state of Indiana, we're a sports state. We have every single major sport in the state represented, and we're lucky enough if you're living in the state and seeking higher education in the state to have quality education that is very much supportive of team sports, but there's states out there in America and worldwide that don't have that. I recently spoke at a NCAA inclusion conference and it became glaringly obvious to me. I should've known it, but, you know, I took for granted because I live in the state of Indiana is there are so many students out there who participate in sports, love whatever game that they play and don't know what they want to do for the rest of their lives, but know that sports is their identity. They have childhood memories that stem from family gatherings around sports on TV. And when you don't know what you want to do with the rest of your life, you fall back to most people fall back to what they love. And sports, if that's a huge part of you growing up as a child and that has seeped into your identity, the natural inclination is to think, you know, my ultimate dream goal is working for a sports organization, which makes sense, but take that kind of kernel of thought and seek the information to learn. Now, what am I actually asking for? Because what you're asking for is to follow your passion into a seasonally difficult work schedule. What you're looking for is a very competitive environment and hopefully that all tracks with what you're looking for, but the reality is you don't know until you don't know, but I encourage young talent to try to ask the questions and listen. And starting from the bottom is okay. If the bottom isn't within the ultimate dream that you have for yourself, that's a start, that's progress. Listen, it took me 10 years to even figure things out for myself as an adult, 'cause adulting can be hard sometimes. - Absolutely. - And honestly, every year that goes by, I think to, you know, myself, we actually had it kind of easy back then without social media and all the extra pressures, but I struggle with marrying the intention to follow your dreams with what it actually takes and how to lift up our young talent to embrace both. It's follow your dreams, but be ready to work for it. - There's no substitute for hard work, right? No substitute. And I appreciate what you said because I think a lot of people don't necessarily appreciate this around being proactive in seeking people who are doing what you wanna do, asking them, how did you get there? What do I need to do? I know for myself, when I was considering law school, I'm not from here, I'm from Kentucky. I knew nothing about Indiana schools, nevertheless law schools, colleges, what it took to get in. And I spent almost a year and a half talking to attorneys in the city about what do you have to do to get in law school? What's it like? I have a family. How do I navigate that? Just learning what this next step that I was considering really looked like because I had absolutely no clue. And in doing that, you also do pick up mentors. You pick up people who will say, okay, well, let me know how that goes and let me know how I can help you with the next step or keep me posted. I mean, I'm talking to students all the time now in all kinds of different aspects of their journey, whether that's, you know, higher education or career aspirations or whatever, and always in with, hey, keep me posted on how you're doing, use me as a resource, whatever that looks like. And I'm surprised at the students that I never hear from again, you know, but there are a few who actually do circle back and come back and those are the people that end up being those that you mentor just kind of organically because they've established that relationship. So let's talk about mentoring a bit, particularly as diverse professionals. I think mentoring and sponsorship is so necessary because often what's going back to what we talked about in the beginning, we don't have the exposure. We don't have the access. We don't know the opportunities that are available. So tell me about your mentoring style and how you approach mentoring talent, particularly diverse talent. And what's been your experience in mentoring and exposing diverse talent to the resources that are out there, the skills that are necessary to equip them and get them ready. You talked about being ready for the opportunities when they present themselves. - So it wasn't until probably within the last five years that I really started taking very seriously my role as a mentor, official or unofficial. I had reached a point in my life where I knew that I was ready, able and expected to give back. And happy to do it with as much time as I can possibly a lot to it. I happen to work in an industry that's very coveted, that's difficult to break into. So apologies in advance for anybody who has reached out to me and I have not gotten back to you. It's not for a lack of wanting to help you. It is lack of just hours in the day. And I'm still trying to figure out how to better reach more people who just want words of advice, wisdom, whatever, based on my experience on what it takes to work in sports. And specifically in this industry, I will say that secondarily my chosen profession is human resources, but most people look at my position as the one that actually can help them pursue whatever their career path is in just sports and entertainment. And it was brought to my attention a few years ago when I first made the transition into sports. I almost didn't know what I was getting myself into. I knew about the Colts. I love the dimension I was a Hoosier. I love the Indianapolis Colts. I like football, but that's my team. But when I got the position and had enough time to put my feet underneath me and was kind of rolling forward, steadily making progress, I regularly was unsolicited in reminding others by just my presence and my role that, oh, there's a diverse woman in leadership for the Indianapolis Colts. And it would make them pause. And one of my colleagues said that she mentioned me in my position in my role. And my last name is Park, which is a very common Korean surname. And she said her mother presumed that I was a man. So when she found out I was a woman, she just almost couldn't believe it. From her generation, that was unheard of. And in another instance, there was a Japanese American who was interviewing for a position that we had open and I was part of that committee. And it wasn't during the interview, but it was after she got the job later where she said how incredible it was that if she had any doubts that she wanted to be a part of this particular organization, when she saw a minority woman in leadership, she knew that we were walking the walk and talk in the talk and putting well-deserved minority women in positions of leadership. And so the call to mentor just over the past few years, there's been signs of I should not take this for granted. I am a position to pay it forward and I want to help others who look at me and see success and let them know it took a long time to get to where I am today. And if there's anything in my journey that can help you, please ask. And a lot of people are doing that. And when I try to find the time, whether it's one-on-one or just out and about, I encourage people not to be shy. It's to speak up and ask for what you want because the answer could be no. But if the answer is no for me, it's no and, right? And if you're sure about how you want to pursue a career in sports, it's a lot of hard work. And I tell people, you need to be willing to give up free time and really pursue your dream. I don't care what the profession is. Nobody achieved the success that you deemed to be like the pinnacle of someone's career by just clocking in nine to five. That is not brand new information. So we need to see people willing to work hard. And in sports, the reward for that is there's a lot of good times to be had with it. And so I know why people want to pursue a career in sports, but I think what kind of gets overlooked is what are you willing to do to get there? I appreciate what you said about your presence being powerful. You know, you had impact on that young lady who was interviewing with your organization. I think we all, particularly minority women, but any diverse folks who are in the spaces where it's just rare to see us have to appreciate and can't get so comfortable that we don't appreciate that our presence is powerful. It speaks volumes even when we're not speaking or when we're not testifying to all the hard work and all the barriers and all the things that you had to overcome to get in whatever position you got to. And I think we have to keep that in mind because I think you and I have spoken before we're always being watched. We're all, I have law students all the time come up to me. Angela, I remember you spoke at this event, 1,000 years ago. I remember watching you, you know, and I said, oh, well, how's law school coming? And they'll say, oh, I graduated four years ago. And I'm like, my goodness, but people do watch us. And they do try to aspire to be us in whatever capacity that makes sense for their lives, their careers. And I think that does come with a bit of responsibility to pay it forward, to give back, because certainly I appreciate there's no way I got in this position or any position I've ever had without a whole lot of help and a whole lot of guidance and a whole lot of resources and a whole lot of tough conversations. And that's what I want to talk to you about next. Now it's time for a break. - Get caught up on the state's top business news every business day with the inside Indiana Business Radio on demand podcast, available now at insightindianabisiness.com, Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. - We're back with Jasmine Park, VP of People, Culture and Inclusion at the Indianapolis Colts on this episode of the Freedom Forum with Angela B. Freeman. So in my time in business, both in science and law, I've learned that people are generally conflict adverse. Now you got some people who just kind of love, you know, and particularly I'm in legal, so you know you have the people who love the adversity, but generally people try to avoid having conversations that are challenging or uncomfortable, particularly when it comes with having those conversations with diverse people who, where those conversations may be related to work performance or career advancement or gaps and skill sets or whatever. However, I truly believe that we do a disservice to any of our mentees and reports or employees or colleagues where we're not transparent about things, and I don't mean be a jerk about it, but being truthful and transparent about whatever the case may be. And I know you and I talked a bit about this, so I want to know what are your thoughts around the need for crucial conversations, particularly with mentors and sponsors that you trust, and why is it important for diverse professionals in particular to have what we call a board of directors that can share different perspectives, but make you grow and stretch in order to achieve your own goals? - I am a big fan of the truth. Good, bad or ugly. If you know me in my professional environment, I'm constantly seeking feedback, and people are afraid to be honest, to your point, to avoid a difficult, uncomfortable conversation or situation, and if there's a secret sauce to any of my success is over the years, it didn't happen overnight, it certainly didn't happen in my 20s, but now that I'm with a certain age, I've learned over the years how to navigate, effectively communicate and reach a not resolution, but a solution to a situation or an issue that's brought to my attention. I'll share with you more than a few years ago, I was working at a company and the direct supervisor to whom I was reporting to changed because organizational structure changed. Incredible human being, lovely person, but his style was just so different from mine, and his style was also so much different than the person whom I reported to before him. So, I jokingly said one day, as we were conversing, I'm really just gonna have to ask you to stop being nice to me, because I don't know what you're trying to tell me. And it totally say that, reference that incident because there's a lot of people who are just good human beings, they don't wanna make anybody uncomfortable, they just want to uplift you and do whatever it takes, and sometimes no answer is an answer, that aggravates me sometimes when I hear that, because you're not hurting my feelings by saying no, if there's a reason for why you're saying no, or if you're dissenting or have another point of view. What's important to always keep first and foremost in your mind when you're having productive disagreements or productive, constructive conversations is how you say what you say matters. People wanna know that they care about you, or they care about your problems, and be authentic about it, and not just be out for yourself, and only listen to the things that you wanna listen to. And when we're mentoring, and as a diverse board of directors, trying to get the potential out of the young talent that are in our charge, sometimes that conversation is you are your daily habits, and what your habits are telling me right now is you don't really care, because you're showing up late every day, you're working the bare minimum, and if those are facts, those are undisputed, right? I'm channeling my inner lawyer here, Angela. (both laughing) And I'm sure that's something that others don't want to hear if that is actually truthful, because the truth can hurt. There was a book a long time ago that talked about the brutal truth, and that always felt harsh to me this years ago. And what I realized is the brutality of truth can only be heard when there's trust. And so, hopefully, as official or unofficial mentors, there's trust being given both ways, so that when there's a hard truth to be told, then it's received with an open mind. I just very much encourage anybody who's listening, who is trying to figure out what they want to do with for the rest of their lives, and may include wanting to work in sports and entertainment, that you really look at yourself hard in the mirror and think to yourself, "Do I have what it takes?" Because what it takes a lot at the baseline of it is hard work. So you said that multiple times, and I am a proponent of hard work. You can do a lot of things, but you can substitute hard work. And in both of our professions, and to your point, any profession, any level that is the pinnacle, they're working hard. Nobody, well, I wouldn't say nobody, but most people are not kicking with their feet up and making ridiculous amounts of money that are day-to-day professionals like you and myself. So I really appreciate that because I tend to think that our emerging talent doesn't have the same respect or appreciation for what hard work looks like. And so I want to talk about that a bit. Now, you or I are healthcare professional, so I just want to put that out there. But we do mentor young talent. We do help folks get to the next level. And I've seen increased tendency for many more junior attorneys. I'm working with attorneys or talent to really struggle with the rigor of work, the expectations of work. You said earlier, you're gonna have to make some sacrifices. You're gonna have to give up your free time. You're gonna have to not go to every family event that's happening, you know, throughout the summer. Like in my day, when I was growing up as an associate, that was just giving. Like that wasn't anything that was going above and beyond. That was doing what was necessary to be considered valuable. And now I see that shifting a bit where there are a lot of young or emerging leaders and talent who feel like just the day-to-day stresses and pressures of work are really equating to mental health issues. And I struggle with that a bit, not that I diminish or don't appreciate mental health 'cause I know that's a real thing. And as I'm getting older and a little wiser, I'm more cognizant that even I can't drive myself the way I used to 20 years ago, that's real. But I also think there's a real distinction and differentiation between just day-to-day stresses and pressures of work versus things that really are mental health issues and concerns. And again, I'm not a healthcare professional, so I can't define that. But I'm seeing more and more young professionals who are concerned about their mental health, they're stressed about their mental health, they're taking the day off because of their mental health. And there's nothing wrong with that. If that's necessary and you've got a doctor's diagnosis and that's what you need to do, that's fine. But I also think some of that's just dealing with the pressures of being in a industry where it's stressful and you've got a lot of weight on your shoulders and you're trying to keep a lot of balls in the air and make sure everything happens on time and in due time in order to get to that best outcome, whether it's for your clients or your customers or whatever the case may be. So can you describe? We talked about this in the context of resilience and how important it is to be resilient. Tell me about your thoughts around resilience for emerging leaders and why is resilience so particularly critical for emerging leaders and diverse professionals who are navigating spaces that are often unfamiliar, unknown, you don't know what you don't know, those kinds of things. - Resilience and what that looks like in action in a professional and personal environment is the key to longevity in achieving ultimate happiness for oneself. Whatever that looks like is I don't believe that a workplace or a work environment is obligated to help someone achieve a state of happiness. You need to find that within yourself and whatever that looks like for you. But that being said, you can find joy in a work day. I look for any and every reason to belly laugh throughout the day. - Absolutely. - And so I find joy in my work day now is every single moment of every single day joyous? No, there's a lot of stress. There's a lot of work. My job is to solve people problems. And so what I find is the world is just navigating this world and this age, it's a lot. And so my heart goes out to how children and now young professionals have grown up and are growing up. But what I find is lack of ability to navigate failure, avoidance of failing forward, learning from mistakes, avoiding situations where you're intended to grow and stretch, but also recognizing when you have an environment that allow you to do that and recognizing when you don't. That requires a lot of emotional and situational awareness and intelligence. And again, if you don't have unofficial mentors, if you're not asking the questions to help you navigate those situations, you can make mistakes that might set you back quite a bit. But life's a journey. If you have a setback, you learn from it and then you step back forward. And I just find that avoiding difficulties is not the answer. It's how do I take small steps towards maybe a situation or an area of interest that makes me a little bit uncomfortable where I'm not the expert where I have a fallback, whether it's a parent or whomever it may be. If it's scary, I think I've heard it said many, many times, if it scares you a little bit, it's probably the decision you need to make. And if you're an absolute introvert and the idea of randomly reaching out to somebody to ask them for advice is scary to you, what do you have to lose? And I can say this from the bottom of my heart, it's not for want, it's far and few between that the people that have achieved the success that you want to for yourself. Rarely are those individuals unwilling to spend some time answering questions, trying to help you advance in whatever it is you're trying to achieve. What really ultimately is the barrier is just time and sometimes access depending on where you live and who your immediate circle is. But then even with that acknowledging that there are barriers that exist, those of us can do our part in our communities at the very least and proactively seek those talented young professionals out. But again, you have to do your part. You have to be out there. We can't find you in your homes playing video games. Right. So I feel like it's a very symbiotic relationship with those of us that are in positions to now give back where the talent also has to step up a little bit and say, hey, I'm here, what's it going to take? I'll add to that, that it is my experience as a person who is not from Indiana. I say this all the time, that Indiana and Indianapolis in particular really lends itself in a way that I don't believe most cities do to providing access to professionals, executives, leaders. In other words, Indianapolis, it has not been my experience that Indianapolis is a city where you have to have a pedigree or the right name or your uncle knows somebody in order to get access to people who can give you advice, give you information, guide you and lead you. If that was the case, I certainly would never be in the position I'm in. And of course, to your point, took you 10, you know, I'm 20 in, right? It takes time. It doesn't happen overnight, but when you look back, you can see how each of those lunches and dinners and coffees that you had led you to the next person that ultimately opened the door, gave you an opportunity, gave you the next level, you know, whatever the case may be. And I think that is what is particularly special about this city that I don't know, maybe it exists everywhere 'cause I haven't lived everywhere. But I really think it's special about Indianapolis in particular. - Here, here, absolutely. Who's your hospitality is a real thing? - Yeah, it is a real thing. - The friendliness of our city is real, it's authentic. And the welcoming nature of those of us that choose India as our home state, we're biased, but it can't be replicated anywhere. And you feel it when you, you know, vacation or visit other cities, don't you? - Exactly. - And so I think that translates when it comes to mentoring others in a professional space. And I definitely, firmly stand by, no person doesn't want to be of help to others professionally if there's something that they can do to help. - So we're beginning to wrap up, but I wanna kind of go back to your authenticity as a professional and transparency. We talked about this a bit and vulnerability. Those three things go together to me, authenticity, transparency and vulnerability. How necessary is it in your viewpoint to be transparent? We talked about this a bit and/or authentic in order to truly effectuate change that advances real goals toward more employee fairness, equity, inclusion, belonging. And you have a particular vantage point as a Korean American woman in a male-dominated sport. How have you been able to use your authenticity and transparency and vulnerability in order to continue to effectuate better policies and work environment for the people that you work with and these younger professionals who are coming up behind you? - At the end of the day, to have influence in any situation, a professional level of trust is earned. And I say professional level because trust isn't, I'm gonna trust you with my life. - Right, or my worst secrets. - Right, right, but a professional level of trust is a baseline for which without it, you cannot be influential in the workplace. And trust, even at that level, has to be earned. And it takes time. Nobody's going to give it to you just because you have all the degrees or the expiry. - Or the expiry. - Exactly, exactly. - Yeah, yeah, absolutely. - And it really is the foundation to be authentically you is I myself, it took time for me to be comfortable in my own skin many decades, but it wasn't without the psychological safety that I found in working for enlightened executives who really saw me and didn't expect me to effectuate another type of presence and understood my value as who I am. And in me, seeing that level of acceptance, embracing it gave me my confidence so that now I encourage others to step up and own their differences and lean into what makes them different to circle back to that and know what it is to influence any situations. It starts with trust and in being able to be comfortable and confident in your own skin. People are generally intelligent and people can generally tell if you're being fake and people can generally sense if you actually care. And anybody who has met me knows that I'm not a lukewarm personality. I'm generally all in high energy and can kind of get what you see. I don't put on airs and pretend to know things that I don't, but the things that I do know in supporting and advancing the goals and objectives of an organization based on the people that it takes to run the organization, that level of influence is helpful when first and foremost the owners in my case or the executives that actually make the company wide decisions appreciate the differences and understand that in the long run and the long game, diversity helps achieve the goals that you want to achieve. Inclusion helps us all perform better along the way, achieve goals faster and have a darn good time while we're doing it. I recently read an article that touted the value of not so much work family, not treating work colleagues whom you're close with is an extension of your family, which that's the term I've always used, but what resonated with me was the ability to treat your work as your new professional team. So not all of us are built to play professional sports. That's elite athleticism. That's not me. - Not me though. - But if you treat the workplace and your team and whether it's your intact team or your broader teammates as actual teams where it takes the collective whole to achieve those goals, that's a little bit of a different mindset than when you work in this department and you work in that department and it brings out the best in people and it's the unique differences in the diversity of the talent and the thinking and the strengths that then holistically, exponentially get to the end goal that you ultimately wanna achieve in business, generally speaking. - That's really, really helpful and it's enlightening. And as we wrap up, I'm gonna ask you what I ask all of my guests because ultimately to your point, this whole reason for this podcast is to help educate and enlighten the executives and the leadership in this community on how we can be more inclusive. So what are two or three tools or tips or resources that you would suggest to any Indiana leader who's serious about recruiting, hiring, or retaining diverse talent within their ranks or to any diverse Indiana leader. So we've been talking a lot to the young leaders who are considering transitioning to a different role or organization for better opportunities. I would say use the current platform that you have, whatever it is, whether it is if you work in a company where it's internal, if there's groups within your organization, whether it be infinity or ERGs or just even unofficial book clubs, use the platform that you have to let it be known in the circle that you currently have at your disposal, what your intention is, so people can't read your mind. And from there, leverage the best of social media in extending then your network out in social media. If you have a very specific area of interest, if you're going from one industry to another or just a completely different career path altogether, that's brave and bold and I applaud that type of courageous decision to try something different, that's scary, starting all over scary doesn't matter what it is. And I'm definitely here to support anybody who proactively makes a decision to be uncomfortable and try something new. I love that as just from one human being to another, to me that's just growth and not settling for just being comfortable. So use your platform, use the best of social media, honestly get out there. Oftentimes you're so busy doing, again, back to the intentionality of inclusivity just doesn't happen. Is if you want to be a part of that, if you want to be a part of that change for yourself or somebody else, there's actual work behind it to get to the place that you want to get to. The last anecdotal story that I'll end with is I alluded to at the very beginning of this podcast of how I got to where I got today. The one thing that I did that was out of character for me was randomly outreach to an executive woman that I didn't know, but I saw her give a speech and a presentation and thought to myself, she is the antithesis of who I am. I could probably learn some things from her. She is an advanced level in her career than myself. I could probably learn some things from her. I rarely see sweet women. I could probably learn some things from her and I randomly sent her an email and I did not hear a thing for three months. But I want you to know that that was out of my comfort zone back then and there were butterflies in my stomach. I was like, what if she rejects me? What if she thinks that, you know, who am I to reach out to her? I just had all these doubts and three months went by and I hadn't heard a thing and so I had given up but I was proud of myself for at least taking that tiny step to do something for myself professionally that I knew would be helpful for me and wouldn't you know, three months later, she finally had the time because God bless her. She was busy. She finally reached out long story short. She was my ultimate gateway into this current position that I hold today. I think that's the perfect an adult in this conversation and Jasmine, I just want to tell you again. Thank you so much for being our guest on the 38th episode of The Freedom Forum. Thanks for being here. - You're welcome. Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure. - Thank you again to Jasmine Park and thanks to you for joining us on this 38th episode of IBJ's The Freedom Forum with Angela B. Freeman. Please come back next month for another conversation about diversity, equity, and inclusion in the Central Indiana Business Community. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)