[MUSIC] Hey, you're listening to Creative Pet Talk, a weekly podcast companion for your creative journey. I'm your host, Danny J. Pizza, the New York Times best-selling author and illustrator, and this show is everything I'm learning about building and maintaining a thriving creative practice. [MUSIC] Galant singer-songwriter is on the podcast today. Galant is a musician performer with just an unreal voice and has done so many interesting things. If you don't know Galant, I suggest maybe starting with some of the new tracks from the album, the new album Sync that is just coming out in 2024, and then maybe hopping over to the tiny desk concert that he did, unreal, the pipes and the sound that they got live in that studio space was just unbelievable. And then maybe checking out some of his recordings with Sufian and Duolipa and Seal and some of the sessions they did on YouTube, and that'll give you a little taste if you don't know. This guy is just a powerhouse, extremely creative. He's grammy-nominated, just has had an explosive career up into now, and then he's bringing out this new album that as far as I can tell is just one of the most deeply connected to his creative vision. I think he's taking interesting risks while also delivering catchy stuff. Ever since I heard it, it's been stuck in my head. Great album. He reached out to me in the process of making it a few years ago, and he was talking about an episode of the podcast that he'd heard. And so I went and checked out his stuff, and I was like, "Holy goodness, this is legitimate." Sound. I was so pumped. I said, "Hey, man, dude, I'd love the chat when you're on the verge of releasing this thing. Please get back and touch." And he did. And so that's what this is. We had an epic conversation around creative journey and the ongoing battle, the mind game that is trying to access the right parts of yourself at the right times in the right places throughout the creative process, both in the creation and then the releasing it out into the world. It's such a difficult art and tightrope walk. And so we dive into that. I was so inspired by all of his insight and all of his vulnerability and some of the stories he tells at the beginning. A couple of things to listen out for in this one. Taste and what it feels like, what it looks like to tap into that part of you that maybe goes beyond language, goes beyond rationale. He articulates that so well. Look out for what it looks like to get inspired by mediums that are not your own. And how to think about setting up those kind of mood boards for your work as a potential prompt to get over the blank page. We're going to get into all that. Like, I love the zone that Galant gets into on multiple occasions and I just had a freaking blast. I feel like we tapped into some flow, which is a topic also that we kind of get into. We're going to end with a CTA, a call to adventure, how to put some of these ideas to practice in your own practice right after this episode. But the CTA is going to come from him. I'll come back at the end just to say bye. Massive thanks to Galant for making the time. Honestly, I really hope that I get the chat with him again because he's such an inspiring artist. I think you're going to love the chat. Here it is. My chat with Galant. Massive thanks to Squarespace. Squarespace is an all-in-one website platform that makes making a website easy peasy. For a moment, creative websites were kind of looking all the same and I really wanted to break out of the templity look. Then I heard that Squarespace has this new fluid engine and boy, am I glad I checked it out because this thing is what I always dreamed making a website could be like for me. Drag and drop stuff and then drag it all over the place. Text, images, videos, you can put it wherever you want. Layer it up, tear it up. Everything I cooked up in my mind, I could figure out how to do without any knowledge of coding. I got a lot of comments like, hey, who helped you build this? And I was like, Squarespace is fluid engine, baby. You can see it at antijpets.com and head to Squarespace.com for a free trial and build your own site. And when you're ready to launch, you can get 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain with promo code PEPTALK, all one word, all caps. Against all odds, I have become someone who has learned to love planning and dreaming and goal setting and journaling my thoughts. And my to do list is really important to me. Externalizing your inner world is really essential to getting out of vicious cycles of rumination and getting past those really difficult obstacles. Some people like to do this on paper. Some people like to type it up. But I also know a lot of you are iPad people. Zenia is a journaling app that is the best of both worlds. And you can use your Apple Pencil, write and draw, use digital washing tape, stickers, make it your own type, plan out your week, organize your to-dos. This hybrid digital journal is something I know a lot of you are going to be obsessed with. Go check it out, download Zenia on the App Store. Today, that's Z-I-N-N-I-A on the App Store. Use PEPTALK, all one word for 20% off. So the album is about to come out, right? Yes. Yes. So right now it's I guess about three weeks, three or four weeks before the album comes out. Yeah. And I'm. So you're doing okay. I always get. I feel like it's a weird one because for me, I feel like I've always done a thing where I'm like working literally like a week of or like even sometimes like a couple of days before the album is supposed to release. I'm like still sending stems to the mixer and I'm like, oh, let me change this thing. And I like make it so quick for myself so that I don't have to live in the agony of the purgatory of trying to like anticipate what reaction is going to be or like finding the urge to go back and make changes because you have the space and the time to think about it. So luckily I feel really, I feel really proud of this, this body of work. So I haven't had the urge in the past, you know, 10 months or however long I've been sitting with the whole with the whole body of work. So I'm at peace, but I'm my heart's beaten though, like my heart is beating very, very fast and has been for the past two months. So I get it. I get the same way when I'm when I'm releasing a book, I get the same way, like, and I, and it is, you know, there's all kinds of, it's all, the whole thing's a mind game. It's all how do you access different parts of yourself when you need to access them? How do you do it attachment and detachment at the right points of the process? It's very, it's a difficult, it's a difficult game, but I have to say I've been super enjoying the album, man. I thank you, man. Thank you so much. I am loving it. And I, I think my favorite right now is Lucid. Wow. Wow. Really. Thank you, man. Dude. Thank you so much. That's an epic ending. That's going to be the last track, right? Yeah. Yeah. And that makes me so happy that that you say that because that's one of those songs where I almost psyched myself out because I was like, you know what, I really like this and I really like this ending, but nobody's probably nobody's going to like this song. So let me just throw it on here. I mean, like, you know, give, give myself one, you know, tight to the chest record with a really cool ending that I like. Thank you, man. That's, that's so nice of you to say, dude, I love it. And that line of only feel alive when I'm lucid dreaming, dude, I feel that in a real way, like that in a, I was like, that's sad and real and I feel like so, dude, I love it. And it's yeah. And I think my new running song is going to be Coldstar. I love that. And thank you. Good drive. That's like exactly what you want, like the right steady kind of pace and some surprising elements that pop in as you go. Like, I'm excited to run to that one. Thank you so much. I actually have to try that. I feel like I, I've been under underestimating that song as a running song. Yeah, it's got a good right pace. I feel like. Yeah. Yeah, you're right. You're right. It's like a cool combination of like driving, but then also calming, I think. Yeah. It's like you're running in like Seattle in the fall and there's like a nice breeze and maybe like a couple, couple speckles of rain just every now and then. And you want, you know, especially if you're doing a little bit, you know, longer distance, you don't want something that's pushing you to the edge and hyping you out of your mind, you want to like get in the, like locked into a flow. And I feel like that's kind of what that song feels like. That's so true. That's so true. Just about too quickly. So I don't know, like I want to talk about the like creativity of the album and how that came together. And I want to go back a little bit before we do that, but and, you know, this right here, this was a risky move, but I had to trust my gut and just say, you know what? It sounded like to me was like if 90s Usher made a album with burial, is that amazing? Does that feel like anything? Yeah. I also thought seal too, before I even knew that you had done anything with seal. So I'm like, I'm on something with this house kind of UK thing going on. Yeah, dude, that's such a huge compliment. Like, I mean, seal is one of my heroes and Usher, I mean, Usher, I feel like basically taught me through self teaching myself how to like, you know, make sounds with my voice that weren't excruciatingly painful for other people to hear, you know, I just like listen to a bunch of Usher songs and, you know, slowly dialed it in. And thank you, man. That's such a cool combination of those two worlds that I love so much. I'm glad that comes through. That's so sick. It's great, man. It's great. And also I just feel like as I'm, you know, I listened to some of your songs before and delve deeper in this album. And then, but I didn't really realize your kind of creative journey. And in so many ways, I'm just like, dude, this is like my life. Like, I grew up like genuine differences on repeat. And then he's in the video and then touring with Sufian. That's like my college years. I was like, dude, this guy is like living my dreams if I could play music. And yeah, I was just like, I couldn't wait to chat. Me too, man. That's part of what, what drew because I feel like, you know, I feel like I was, I was late to the podcast. I've only, you know, been, been listening in the past like three or four years, but I feel like you would always pepper in these like references of music that you would like. And it would be very, very subtle. And then I was like, oh man, we're on the same page as there. And then you would mention these like R&B artists. I'm like, Oh, you're, we're on the same page there. Yeah. I try not to go too hard on it because you don't want to isolate based purely on your taste. When that's not really what the show is about, but sometimes I can't help it. Exactly. I totally, totally understand that. I want to go back a little bit before we got into the new stuff because the first thing I, you know, I'm listening to this album and it feels like new and different and like a lot of a mix of things that I hadn't heard. And I know a little bit about how you feel about it. So there's a lot of interesting, really interesting creative journey stuff there. But before that, as I'm like going back, I'm looking through your, your tiny desk thing was crazy. Your voice is nuts. First of all, amazing. And then, you know, Grammy nominated. I'm just pulling up all this stuff and I'm like, dude, at this stage, does, do you feel like you can like chill because you're like, I did all the things like a musician wants to do or is it put you in a different place? Because you're just like done hero collabs and just crazy, crazy shit. Like I'm just wondering where that puts you at this stage. Yeah. And it's so crazy that you asked me that because I feel like I wake up every day and I ask myself the same thing. I feel like, you know, I think, and also part of why, you know, the topics that you that you constantly touch on on the podcast really resonate with me is because I I definitely had, you know, bucket list goals and everything when I when I started doing music, but I always only made songs from a place of getting things off my chest and really working out, you know, it my own internal bits of conflict. And just to make something that I felt like didn't really exist in the world, but I really wanted to hear this combination of this thing with this other thing. And so I feel like, in a way, it's a double edged sword because on the one hand, I do feel like I've been able to be really self motivated and it's not about whether people like it or people, you know, decide that they don't want to listen to this thing this time around or or at the time when I was like, just really starting out when I was in middle school making, making admittedly really horrible songs on my on my on my computer and sharing it with my friends and my friends were like, this is garbage or whatever. Sometimes it would be nice, but yeah, it was it was always okay. Because I just I was really going from a place of like self fulfillment. And I just want to make I just thought it was cool. I just wanted to listen to it myself, you know, even if nobody else heard it. And so it's it's weird. I feel like what makes it a double edged sword is is the fact that there's still this I don't want to say emptiness because that sounds extremely, you know, maybe a little bit too emo, but that's kind of what it is. There's an arts podcast, you can go there, man, like we all feel that way. Go for it. Yeah, you know, I just I feel a little bit of this this emptiness and I still feel like there's there's so many different shades of sounds that I haven't explored yet that I really wanted to and and and even even the stuff that you're mentioning, because some of those things happen in really rapid succession and like, you know, maybe like five years ago, six years ago, and even in the moment, it was like I was doing all these things and like checking this bucket list item off, but I'm like, wait, but you know, that's that's just a snapshot in time. That's just the one thing that I that I did and I really like I want to say this thing and I want to do this other thing, but then I was at the time, I felt like I was trapped a little bit on tour and and then it led to a mismatch to just emotionally that was really hard to reconcile with because you know, I'm a very introverted person. I'm a very quiet kind of person and had never even been in the in the middle of the country. I grew up in Maryland and went to went to school up in New York. I went to NYU and so when I went on tour, that was the first time that I was even really going into the middle of the country and and, you know, playing venues and even that was really exciting, but it was this mix of like, this is a strategy for this thing for for your career and then I have like a team of people and then it's like, oh, let me introduce you to this other group of people that I've never met before and they're going to be overseeing this thing. And then I'm like, cool, that's great. But then they're like, oh, you should do this. And then I should do that. And then it was like I was so ensconced in the sauce of the of the like, yeah, exactly just the machinations of everything that when I look back and I'm like, oh, this is this one thing that I wasn't able to be fully present in is really cool and I connected it with this thing. And it there is like a little bit of feeling like I achieved some bits of my goals, but the majority of my goals were really and remain to be like very internal, you know, it's like, I still want to I really want to make this thing or I really want to I was I was happy that I found an audience for this song that was kind of hard to place and hard to define. But these other songs I really want to find an audience for and that is really special to me at this point in time or or maybe it's not even a song. Maybe it's like the way I present myself and stylistically and I'm like, oh, it really meant a lot to me. I had this this image of this person who looked like me, but combined these elements together that I didn't really get to see a lot and I want to represent that. And that's really important. So it's a very long winded way. That's exactly what I was hoping we'd get into some of that because I imagined what we're going to say. Sorry. Oh, no, I was I was just going to say it's a very long winded way of me saying that I still feel like I have so much to do, you know, I have so much that I want to say and so much that I want to create, if not for anybody else, just for myself. Yeah. And and maybe for like, you know, it's like I really remember the the kid that I was and the kid that I still am who is like a music fan and a movie fan and a cartoon fan. And I really want to continue to speak to whatever analog of that kid in 2024 is, you know, and that really means a lot to me. And so I feel like it's it's hard to even look at those things, you know, with when it's like numbers and like people that I've been able to work with, even though it's been so it was so fulfilling and it's so special. It's hard for me to check it off a checklist that's a little bit more like spiritual, you know, it's like, and that's what I'm in constant pursuit of. And who knows if I'll ever actually maybe some of those things are so spiritual that they're they're impossible to be checked off. So maybe I'm going to be an eternal suffering of trying to check check those innate, you know, more mystic goals off of my list, but, but the pursuit of it is a lot of fun. I think sometimes it can be, but it's more. I mean, honestly, I think the way I think about honestly, the reason why I asked was because there's a tension as I'm like looking at I'm listening to this album and I'm looking backwards and I'm kind of seeing like, okay, there's space here. I'm feeling like, Oh, this, this new album feels like, Oh, this is an artist listening to themselves, trying to listen to their own like taste and what they want. And, and, and I'm watching the whirlwind that you've kind of gone through. And I'm just thinking, I do it. I can't imagine the amount of voices that were in your head and around you. And you were crushing it. Like I'm, this isn't coming from any place, other any judgment, like those, like, like I said, tiny does thing, dude, it was amazing the sessions you did with Sufion and like incredible. There's no, I'm not saying anything bad about them except I'm just saying that the reason I set that up was the intrinsic versus the extrinsic goals and feeling like, you know, for me, a lot of my external goals, I didn't hit until a decade plus into my career. And I still haven't hit some of them, but some of them I have. And I think it took me that long to realize like, Oh, this fuel, there's some good things that happened from it. I'm happy they happened. I think that they can be important. I'm not discrediting them, but they're not going to fill me up. And the thing that fills me up is this intrinsic motor and that motor, reminds me of Austin Cleon. He talks about like, it's like Groundhog's Day. It's just, I want to write another story. I just want to write another story that's a little bit better or a little bit different. Or like, you know, there's the, that's the, you know, like you said, it can be kind of a suffering, but it is like a self perpetual get you out of bed kind of suffering that is also a fun way of wrestling, you know? Yeah. So that's kind of why I was asking because I wondered like, I, there's, like I said, I feel like creativity is such a mind game. And I'm, I tried to, I can't imagine, but I try to put myself in those positions that you have been in. And then to get from the journey of that to this record, and it's like, okay, I just know I have to think there's some people from five, six, seven years ago that might have said, don't do such a vibey record, like don't like this thing is feels so creative. And like, it just feels like a vision, but I just feel like, I know that there are a lot of people in positions of power that are going to be like, don't do that. You know what I mean? I don't know if I'm on anything, but that's kind of how I'm thinking about it. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, and that's such a, that's such a tough and like occasionally, I guess like demoralizing tug of war because, you know, you always, and you talk about it a lot too when you're, especially though, I mean, I think you might have had another episode since then, but the timing of this is wild because I think I just listened to the, the episode where you're, you know, you're talking about the constant, like the siren song of the algorithms and then the business world and you're building your career, but then at the same time, you want to be somewhat tethered to your own inner creative voice and, and creative vision. And I was just like, oh man, like Andy's, he's doing it again. But I, it's tough. I think when I first started writing music, I felt like, well, really when I first started making music in New York, I was really playing to the industry and in the way everything was laid out. It was like, I mean, and this was, this was a while ago. So the industry was very tightly controlled by labels and labels really did have all the answers. It seemed like at that time, it was like whatever they wanted to do, they would make it happen. And so I was in New York, right, like a, still a teenager just writing all of these songs, hoping that a label person would hear it and then decide that I was worth investing in, or even if I wasn't worth investing in, maybe the song would be good for this other artist. And it was, it wasn't that much time, I guess in hindsight, but it was like a good solid two or three years of just like what felt like to me constant rejection, but not in like a fun way. It was like rejection to the point of like nobody will ever connect with these, these lyrics because it's not about partying or it's not about like, it's not about this list of things that we know works like we know this sells and this has to be it or the classic like, but you're black, you can't write this other, you can't take inspiration from this other genre. How is that going to be marketed? That doesn't, it's like these constant things that I guess it's, it's fair from like a, just an overall, I guess marketing perspective in a very clinical sense. Yeah. Even though I really hate that, but from my brain, it's like, I can't compute because to tell me that over and over again, it's like, it's, it was like biting at the very core of my essence, not just creatively, like you're, you're talking about me as the person who just looks the way I look, that's just how I was born. And I just like the music that I like and I like the, the movies that I like and I'm inspired by the, the, you know, Japanese music sometimes. It doesn't mean that, that it doesn't mean I'm wrong. Does it mean that I'm like, my existence is, is just terminally unmarketable to the point of like, why even, why even try? And I actually remember the day where I had, I was having a really tough day because this is a rough story, but I used to have this, this manager in New York. And I, you know, I just, I felt like I was still in this zone because I also, I was a teenager. So I was in the zone of like these other people are going to do X, Y and Z for me. And I, and then at the same time, creatively, I'm coming from a very external place. I'm like, and I'm writing this in order to achieve this thing. And long story short, I mean, after like, maybe like six or seven or eight months of working together and, and, and he was like promising, he was like, Oh, I'm doing this, I'm doing this thing. I straight up, I just went on his computer and I looked to, I just typed in my name to just see what kinds of conversations were happening or what how he was being sold or what, how it was being packaged or explained. And it was just nothing, you know, so like just zero communication. So I said, you know, and I don't know if it was this exact same day or the day after, but I, I slowly was, was realizing that this just wasn't the place for me. Just metaphorically, like just writing songs for the music industry, so to speak. And then also just New York, for some reason, I, I'm such a suburbanite. And I feel like, you know, I was born in like the very propped up, you know, suburb in the middle of the woods, you know, so, and it's like people can hate on that, that, that configuration of things all day. But for some reason, that space and that ability to like breathe and go for a walk by the lake and like hang out at a close friend's house instead of like at some, you know, giant metropolitan gathering place felt really special to me. So I was already under all of that pressure, just living in the city that I felt like wasn't matching my identity. And then I felt like I was where I was around people that didn't value my uniqueness. And I went and I got a McFlurry from McDonald's at that time, because I was like, I literally, I had like, you know, I have, I always had at least, I would say $6 maximum in my bank account at that time, obviously. And most of the time it was in the negative. So I was like, okay, I'm going to use my $3 and 17 cents. I'm going to get an Oreo McFlurry. I'm going to go for a walk. I'm going to think about it. I think I was going to take the subway up to like the end of somewhere in the end of Brooklyn where I could get on like a ferry, you know, to Staten Island. I don't know if it's the end of Brooklyn to do that. But I was just going to go get some space. And then I take the McFlurry and I go into the subway. And it was like a cosmic wind had all of a sudden come out of nowhere and gathered all of the dirt in the dust from the corners and like the cigarette ash from like the corners of the subway. And it just in a swirl, like a magical Disney like swirl. It just went and deposited all the dust into my Oreo McFlurry. And I basically snapped. I mean, I was like, dude, I was like, I can't take it. Like, this is the industry is not for me. I got to get out of the city. And my friend at the time, luckily, who was a music producer was going through similar feelings of just being a little bit disconnected and just disillusioned. And we just decided we were like, hey, we should just move to LA. We should just stop messing around with this company that we were working with at the time. And let's just like make our own, let's just make a project. And literally like, you know, that week we were looking at spots to go temporarily in LA, which shout out to him. I mean, he basically just let me. I think he was able to make a little bit of money at the time. So he was just kind of down to, to like have me tag along, you know, and which is amazing. I mean, I, yeah, I owe a lot to him. And when we were just writing these songs, and for no audience, really, it was just for me, it was just me getting things off my chest. We were listening to a lot of Sufion records. I remember there was this one period of time where I was just, I was so, I was like, despondent, you know, basically, and I was on the couch. And it was just Sufion dress looks nice on you playing and repeat. And then my friend was like making this like ambient remix of the song too. And it was just like hours and hours of that just on repeat. And then we ended up just saying, oh, we're going to make like a project. And we had the windows open. And we like had the wind come in. And we were like getting excited. We were like, Oh yeah, like, why don't we, like, instead of like me being real close to the mic, I'll just be really far away. And then I'll just do like a whale sound. And then it would be like, oh, then we'll echo, we'll like echo it out and make it like verbi. And then it will be like this other. And you know, we just got started getting really like, yeah, like joyful about it. And and I had never really felt that like that pull of the thing that I loved that much since I was in middle school making songs that nobody, nobody liked. And so I was just like this, like, whatever this feeling is, is what I want to chase. Like, nobody's telling me what I have to listen to, nobody's telling me what I have to be inspired by. I don't even know, like, the concept of marketing was evaporated from my brain. At that point, I'm like, I don't even know what marketing is. I don't know what, and it doesn't, and it, and it, yeah, you know, and so, and, and that was a project that was like my very first EP that I call, I called Zebra. And I just like put it together myself, and then I uploaded it on the internet. And immediately after uploaded, it just started applying to Starbucks, because I'm like, I can't, I can't be borrowing money from my friends, like for the rest, for the end of time, like this is ridiculous. So, and then all of a sudden, you know, it was like a very slow and steady thing of like one message being like, oh, this is really cool on the internet. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. And then another message being like, oh, this is awesome, because it's combining this thing. And it, and I was really into this artist called how to dress well at the time too. And it was like, oh, this was like how to dress well. And it's like, and, and then people like, oh, this is like shoegaze R&B. And then I was like, oh, yeah, like it, you, you understand me, like you get what I'm, I was, it was such a surprising feeling. But there was no going back ever once I felt that feeling of validation, which is a, it's that's a weird way to describe it too. Because I feel like that has so such a weird connotation. But I just felt like I didn't have to change myself. I felt like I, my uniqueness and my specificity was a superpower in that moment. And to like, betray that or to like, dim it would be just so nonsensical and antithetical to being able to make anything in the future that I could look back on and be really proud of. And so, man, talk about long-winded ways of coming back to answer your question. Dude, it's a great story. It's a great story, man. I was, I'm all in. People are driven by the search for better. But when it comes to hiring, the best way to search for a candidate isn't to search at all. Don't search, match, with indeed. The hiring process can be slow and overwhelming. Simplify hiring with Indeed. Indeed is your matching and hiring platform with over 350 million global monthly visitors according to Indeed data and a matching engine that helps you find quality candidates fast. Ditch the busy work. Use Indeed for scheduling, screening and messaging so you can connect with candidates faster. Join more than 3.5 million businesses worldwide that use Indeed to hire great talent fast. Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsor job credit to get your jobs more visibility at Indeed.com/PODKATZ13. That's Indeed.com/PODKATZ13. Terms and conditions apply. One of the reasons I really like the hero's journey as a framework, especially for creativity, there's kind of two things going on there. I really think about it like a creative hero's journey is there's home and then there's a way. So there's these two different places. Home is really who you are. But it's also kind of like what you know you are right now. So a way is going away from yourself to see what you might become. But it's also leaving your comfort zone and in who you know you are. And so it's a dangerous game and you always kind of end up. I think if you're doing a creative thing, right, you're going to always end up in places where you're like, I shouldn't be here. This is not me. And that's what I like about it is that it has this like requirement of openness, which is required, you know, because you got to mess up, you got to push the limit. That's how you become something different. And that's also you. And so I'm just thinking about like this early experience of kind of moving away from yourself, moving away from listening to other people, kind of taking on board what they want you to be. And then coming back to yourself, what do you think the elixir is that you got from that journey? I mean, it sounds like it's something tied to this ability to listen to your yourself. But what is it there? Do you think it is that kind of it? Yeah, I think I definitely think it's because even that whole experience that I just described and I love I love your your emphasis on the hero's journey. By the way, I feel like that's such a that's such a grounding just framework to view everything. And because it's also implying I feel like that the story is never like the story is still continuing, you know, so you your story only ends when you decide that you're going to give up or that you're going to stop. And totally. And that's okay too. But but yeah, I just love the fact that it's something that's constantly being written. But yeah, I do think that even to just go back to that one point of me like discovering that I could make something just by listening to my inner taste and just by and even that flow state. I mean, I was so I've never felt that level of even just talking about it really makes me happy and like excited, you know, it's like it's like I'm playing with Legos. It's just like, ah, like it's and you don't you don't get that feeling that much as an adult. So it's like, why wouldn't you want to just use that as the as the barometer of where you're always trying to kind of get close to, you know, you're always trying to get in that gravitational pull of that feeling. And so I do think that when I was starting to like gain a lot of traction with that first EP and then all of a sudden I, you know, that's all that I do. And then I'm in that world and then signing to my friend's label at the time, which was great because my friend really understood me and then making my first album. And but then when it's when that first album got kind of picked up by a major label and then it was and then I'm in that world of major label, just mania, I'm going to call it that, you know, which can be, you know, it's just it's just a lot all the time in a whirlwind. And I think that that feeling of like wanting to always stay close to that, that inner taste, I think I do think for some people it kind of, I don't even know with the right way to describe it. Like, like when when somebody would say, oh, what about recording this song, for example, and then it's like all of a sudden the calculus comes and it's all these numbers in front of your face. And you're like, if I do this, this could happen. But then what about this other thing and then could it really happen? Do they really know? But it's so far away from what I have. And then you say something like, I like, no. And then they look at you like you have like, you know, tentacles and like five heads. And and sometimes I feel like that that willingness and that that just desire to stay as close to your own inner taste as possible, not because you want to shut everything else down and not because you want to close yourself off or because you don't want to collaborate, but just because you want to get close to that joyful feeling of like being a kid who loves music, but you love music for this set of reasons and you love the set of sounds that really speaks to you is really hard to communicate. And so I guess I haven't found like any, any real elixir, you know, there's always going to be that battle. And even now, I mean, I'm in a completely different battle, I would say, because, you know, we'll probably talk about that later, but I feel like at least if it's not an elixir, it's like, at least you have some sort of core, you know, you have some sort of center. And I, and like you said, I do think that there's a lot of value in stepping outside of yourself sometimes. And like, I love like exploring different pockets and different like sounds that I wouldn't normally do. I mean, after I finished my first album, I did my entire second album, basically as a way to experiment with different sounds and work with like songwriters that I even just working with songwriters in general was always really difficult for me. Because it's hard to find somebody who's really just in your same headspace and can help you craft something that still feels like you, you know, but, but I think even even just knowing that I had that core of, all right, this is what is my inner taste. I'm going to always stick with my uniqueness, not just as a concept, but as a feeling as a feeling of this makes me excited. And this makes me happy. If it's something that's completely outside of myself and sometimes, and it just still makes me happy, then cool. I discovered a new corner of something that's still very close to me. But I would just always try to keep it at least. I don't even want to give like a percentage. It was more like a gut feeling. It's like, here's a new person. Here's like a new sound. Here's a different producer. But, and how are you feeling? And it's like, if your gut feeling is, this is just not right, and it's just too far, and it just isn't right, then it's not right. But if the feeling is, this is different, but it could be interesting. Maybe we could do this. Maybe I could do this. And then you can start getting into a different version of the flow again, where you're like, oh yeah, like, this is different, but you can like subvert it with this thing. And then you can add this bell, and then you could pour some, you know, pour some of this milk on top, and then you could put some cilantro over there, you know, if there's like a way to still be in that, that joyful process while doing something new or while challenging yourself. At least for me, I've found that that is still a positive thing, and that means that you're not completely lost in space yet, you know. But I'm still looking for the elixir. I wish I could find sure, man. I mean, takes away that takes away what are you just just the overall feeling of, of, the struggle. Yeah, you know, just the struggle of trying to balance those two worlds constantly of like, am I locked into myself too much? Am I experimenting enough? Am I experimenting too much? Is this am I still am I losing myself yet? Am I am I on Earth one? Am I on Earth 59.76? Like, it's, you know, it's a constant, constant tug of war. I think I totally agree. And I, and I don't claim to have any, like, I don't think that there is an answer. I don't have control over it in my own path. It's a constant tug of war, like it is very difficult. But, you know, how I think about it right now, or how it's kind of my hypothesis of how to work it out is something you said earlier, was this idea of getting into the state of, I don't even know what marketing is. And I think the thing that I feel like is really juicy about that is the tension for me comes from when I'm trying to do the irrational creativity, gut level, pre-lingual, you know, just gut that thing, taste thing, visceral thing, when I'm trying to do that at the same exact time that I'm trying to do the rational, logical marketing, smart next thing. Like, when I'm trying to do both of those, I'm at war with myself. And if I can find that way of getting into the place where I'm like, I don't even remember marketing and get like, I don't even know what that is as getting in that zone. But then I think I really, and I feel like the people that can do that, and then, and really own it, and then go the other way when they need to go, okay, now I've made the album, okay, now it's time to go to the other side. And like we said, that episode you brought up, tie yourself to the ship so you don't get taken by the sirens because the business world is going to show these calculations in front of you and everything's going to be always at the smart decision, or you know, because, and that's what I love about the idea of taste is that the reason I'm so attracted to that idea is because I think that the decision making process on how to make something that's resonant is so complicated, it's so nuanced, it's so in, it has so many factors like timeless factors and timely factors, things that are, why does this sound good when it like, dude, like, you know, two or three years ago, we were listening to TLC all the time. And I was like, there's something about this record that just feels so good. And then if I listened to that five years prior, I would have been like, waterfalls? No, like, there's a, you know, so there's a, there's something there's, it doesn't make sense. It's not something you can describe fully, and part of it, it's fun to try to, but I think that's why that logical business thing of like, is this the smart decision or what's your rationale behind why it needs to be this way? I feel like that's where you kind of get into trouble. And so, but I do think you're describing like, you have to be able, and that's why I always think of it as a mind game. It's a mind game with yourself of how do you access the part of yourself that you need fully when it's writing time? Because that's so different than editing time or promoting time, like, right, and you're capable of all everyone's capable of all these different phases and, you know, states, but really hard. That's the sport, I think. Definitely. And I feel like, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like the challenge, which is even when I was, what I was going to get out when I'm said, I'm sure we'll, we'll talk about it later, but yeah, I wanted to go challenge in that promotional phase or that like social media phase or that like, you know, even if you don't know what marketing is like that marketing phase of trying to, trying to match what you've done with the group of people who are going to appreciate it the most, that I feel like is a whole separate exo universe of. It's a whole other game. It's a whole other game. Yeah, because, you know, and then in another episode, you really touched on this really well. I think it was the episode that I mentioned way, you know, way back when I first reached out to you about episode 365 about social media platforms and, you know, how like some people are more fluent in Twitter. Some people are more fluent in Instagram. Some people aren't fluent in any of those. So then it's just thinking about Spotify as a, as a social media platform. Yeah. And, and I was, I was just, I remember back then I was just thinking about that because it's another balancing act of how do you, how do I stay true to myself and find even just the tiniest glimmer of that kid playing with legos when you're trying to craft a narrative and a story that has nothing to do with the art necessarily that you made. Sometimes it can, I guess, but for the most part has more to do with trying to get your message seen by as many people as possible. And I feel like that's such an innately contradictory thing to try to, especially when you have your full focus on it for a period of time. If you finished the thing and now you're fully ensconced in like that, that business angle of everything. It's like, how do you not lose yourself in that? And then how do you get to a point where you feel like you can create consistently and joyfully, even if there's like a tear that comes from your eye as you're experiencing a little passing glimmer of joy while you're making a real for Instagram or something? Yeah. Like, how do you, how do you do that in a way that, that just gets you close to that, to that feeling of flow? And yeah, dude, yeah, go on, go on. Oh, no, please, please. I was just, dude, I love this is such a good conversation. And it's so, yeah, it's something I think about all the time. And I, when you first reached out about that episode, I was so stoked because, you know, I don't, I'm not a musician. I know the music game is just a crazy thing that to wrap your head around it is impossible. So I don't claim to know that. But I got asked a question by a musician. And I was just thinking about just one of the principles that I think about, which is, you know, there's kind of three phases to the way that someone becomes a true fan. And the first one is discovery. And so you want to go where people are, you want to, if you want to put your effort into being discovered, where people discover the kind of stuff that you want to go to that scene, right? And I kept seeing like musicians become comedians on TikTok and then try to get them over to their Spotify page. And I just felt like it's literally like giving away samples of your food from the food court, but you're in JCPenney. And I come over here like, we don't want we're not hungry. We're looking for pants. Like, no. And so it's just, I feel like to me. And then the other thing is, all the musicians hate Spotify in some way. So we love when you put them on the playlist and stuff, but you know, it's a complicated relationship, right? And I can say that because I don't have music. So I can say that. But, but then why at the same time, are we so precious about it, like it's this pristine discography, when really it's like social media in a way, you know, and you could, you can have your rep, your vinyl, like this, these are my albums. But then on Spotify being like, creative and exploratory and collaborative and all that kind of stuff. So anyway, that was the context of that. But the only thing I would say is, it reminds you of something that there's two things. One was the thing when I try to go into promotion mode, the fear that creates the tension of why I can't leave the creative flow zone is because as I get afraid that if I let go of my creative flow, that I'm not going to be able to do it again. I'm not going to be able to. That's where that other side comes in and distracts me and says, well, you haven't, you know, written a story in five months, because all you've been doing is talking about the old stuff. And you know, like, oh, I need to get thinking about the next project, because I need to make it even better than this one. Like all of these, those are all the things that break you out of accepting that you're in a different phase and then owning that phase, and then forget what music is. Now you only know what marketing is. That's too far. But that kind of, I think that I get in that thing of this fear of like, oh, I'm not going to be able to do it again or what, you know, all of that stuff. And so I do think like recognizing, oh, I'm trying to be two things at once, which are impossible. And I instead of saying that, instead of fearing that I can't access that myself, that part of myself again, I can say, no, I'm actually taking a break from that. That's a great thing. Like I'm taking a rest from that, because I'm doing this other thing. And Cal Newport, I heard him talking about how there's a lot of types of work that people associate with flow, where if you look at the brain, it's not flow. So creativity, that stuff is the flow. But I think, you know, this idea of like you're playing with Lego, I think the music side of it is it's like you're just playing with a huge bucket of Lego. And now that's just exploratory. And then there's the puzzle, the set. And it's like, now it's strategic. Now it's just like, okay, that's where we're trying to go. And that's the exploratory versus strategic or completely opposite of exploratory creativity is, I'm going to start without knowing where it's going. And then strategic is, I'm going to start with an end in mind and figure out how to work my way over there. And I think that those two brain states, you can't have them at the same time. And that's where that fear and that attachment that it throws you off. But I'm saying it like I know how to do it. I get it sometimes, but often not, it's very, but it's good to like recognize like, oh, I'm a, I'm not marketing this book, because I'm afraid about the next book that I haven't even written yet. Instead of being like, no, man, it's break time from that. That's the thing. And you're good at this, you know how to go if you've done that, you know, how to get in that flow state and get excited about new sounds and like all that kind of stuff. Anyway, now I'm now I'm, you know, ranting and no, I feel like that's such a, that's it's so true. Because in some ways, I feel like it is the like that exploratory phase is very, you know, it's like you're you're just, you're crossing a bridge and you're imagining the ending of it and like switching it up in real time. It's like you're in like some VR game and you're just like building the world around you. Yeah. And it's not even like that's better or worse or it's just so different, so vastly different than somebody handing you a bomb that's about to explode and saying, please, can you disarm this, you know, and the levels of anxiety are completely different with each with each phase. So you're right. I mean, you can't to be to have a bomb strapped to your chest that you're trying to disarm while you're also trying to build a world around you in VR so that you don't fall to your death in the bridge that you've built with your mind. I mean, that's so it's yeah, it's it's just it's too much brain power. I mean, it is you can't I just think your consciousness can't actually like be in those places at the same time. And so you're it's like they talk about how multitasking doesn't really exist. You're actually just going back and forth. And that is expending all this other energy because it's really hard to like that hard work stuff we're talking about. You know, they say like it takes you 15 minutes to get into that. And then every time you leave it, it takes another 15 minutes. And that's one of the reasons why I can find myself resisting that work is because when I sit down to do it, 10 minutes in, I'm like, this sucks. And then, you know, and then but 30 minutes in, I'm like, okay, I'm in a groove, like I'm like, I'm doing this. But I love yeah, I think that's exactly and I love what you said about it's not that one I do really think it's not that one is better than the other. Like I don't think that and I at my example, always I go back to is the the curb your enthusiasm is just I think the brilliance of it is it they have a the plot, which is the arc. That's the puzzle. That's a three part puzzle. That's a strategic creativity. And then they improv as they do it, which is that's the exploratory. So they figured out a way to kind of not do them at the same time, you know. So yeah, I think it's I think to me that is like that's a huge part of why creativity, the sport of it is a mind game. It's like, how do you master your own mind and tell it where to go when you need it to go there. And yeah, it's as tricky as hell. It's so that I love that Kirby enthusiasm example, because I that almost makes me think, is there a way and not even not even to put you on the spot with it, but is there a way do you feel when you're in the zone of okay, now it's time for me to just get this out to as many people who are going to appreciate, you know, this body of work right now, is there is there a way that that fits into the framework of like a larger creative vision? Is there a way that you can market something or like try to figure out like a new social platform or whatever it is or trying to be strategic with Spotify or with whatever it is in a way that still fits into this more like childlike wonder aspect of doing something differently than other people have done it, but also it's effective. Yeah. Do you do you find like you do you find yourself able to get into a framework where at least it feels exciting and like in creative? I think I think yes, but I think that it has to be. I have to realize that those states are different. And so when I go to, and it's the same, that's why I think about it like it's the creativity of solving a problem rather than inventing a thing. It's like a puzzle, a puzzle is creative, but it's a different energy. And I think getting familiar with that energy. And the reason I did that episode about why it's so tricky to the puzzle energy is more that business side. And the only the real trick I think once you figure out how to access that part of you is not living and dying there, because it is the logic side. And it's the part of you that is so much craftier and it doesn't value the other side, because it is this side of you that's like, no, I know how to make shit happen. I know how to like go over there and chart my way and get the award. And you know, all you do is like play. And so that part of you, it can be really, I think finding it is hard. The way I think about it is Jad Abumrod, who was one of the creators of Radio Lab, he talked about it like gut churn. And to me, I'm like, this is a different type of creativity. It doesn't feel like flow. It feels like wrestling. But when you realize like, but I'm wrestling for fun, like, this is a fun, it can be fun. It's just you're like, the gut churn, it's like a, yeah, it's like anything that you're doing like a, like a sport that's has a pain to it. But you're like, Oh, but it can be like I'm solving a puzzle. And so I think that's kind of, I don't think it's exclusive. But I think learning to love that side is really powerful when you start thinking more strategically about how do I now it's time to get it out there. I don't know if that makes sense, but that's how I start thinking about it. It does. It does. And I feel like, yeah, that's, that's right. Yeah, I love even to take it back to the Spotify example with the, with you bringing it up. I think that's probably, I think what you're describing is what made that advice that you were given in that musician so salient, because you're coming from a place of applying that mentality to something that when you're just in, when you're, when you're in the industry and when you know how everything works, it's like not to put words in that musician's mouth specifically, but I could imagine that musician being like, Spotify is not a social media platform. You can't, you can't have fun with Spotify in that way. But then because you're just working backwards from that frame of, oh, you know, what, what is the experimental and interesting way of living in that space, but like you said, not living and dying in that space. And then from an outside perspective, this is how I see it. You can, you know, social, social media is what let's deco, let's break it down to the basic elements of what it is, like you said, discovery, etc. And then applying that to this platform that nobody thinks about as a social media platform works. Yes. And I even wonder, I'm like, what else does that same framework apply to? Yeah. And I go ahead. Sorry. Oh, no, I was going to say just thinking about that, just thinking about that thinking about the fact that there could be possibilities that are a little bit more endless, you know, is a little exciting. It's like, oh, yeah, what else is, what else is at the bottom of the ocean? You know, we're in, we're here, you know, maybe, maybe we don't have to go way out in space to find something new. Maybe it's digging a little bit deeper in the, in the plot of land right here in my backyard, you know? Yeah. And the other, yeah. And I think that the other thing, you saying that made me think that think it, the thing that can be fun about the business side, about the marketing side, whatever this puzzle side is that you don't have to be precious and romantic about it, because you got your statement. So this is my statement. That's your album. That's your creative side. And you're like, cool, man. Love that. Good job, buddy. You did the art thing. Great. That's, and that's, I mean, dude, if you're an artist, that's your jam. So I'm only teasing myself here. But that is, because that's what I get so like, this is art, like, you know, if I'm going to tell a story or do a book or whatever. But then when I go on the other side, what can be the fun part is that I can be light with it. So I can be like, okay, well, I don't, the next that I could do a whole album of remixes. And this is just about, it doesn't have to be like my exact taste. This can be fun, exploratory, weird, experimental, because I've already made this the statement. Now I can be like, all right, who do I want to work with? What would be weird? What would be fun? What would just get to some of the people that I want to get it to, perhaps, or connect with one of these musicians. And then now you're doing what is essentially 10 collaborative posts, but they're just remix singles, you know, and then now you're getting, you're just kind of extending your little network. And I think the key is you don't need what you don't need is you don't need infinite people to discover the work. First of all, you know, you already have people that love the work and that are going to follow. But you just want to get, you want to, every time you want to throw out your net, bring them in. And then the second thing is they're going to get trust with your album. That's how they're going to go deeper into that. And then now they're like in, and then then you can start thinking about, okay, how do I make a career of that? And that's like tour and merch and sales and all that. But exactly. But yeah, I think that's that that can be the fun part is I don't have to be precious about this when I'm making the bonus material around, you know, the YouTube shorts, if I'm making a movie, the YouTube shorts that are not canon within the movie, they're playing with it, you know, I think that can be just like fun. That's so true. And not to not to bring it. Well, I mean, I was gonna say not to bring it back around to my album, but please do. But the it's relevant because the song that you talked about at the beginning, Coldstar, yeah, that literally came from that exact process that you were describing, I feel like, like that song was just me and my friend that I work with a lot, just he's a he's a producer messing around and making like a side project. And we're like, this is gonna be a side project. I'm gonna and I was like, I'm gonna sing this as if I'm just like a completely different person. Like I imagined the avatar. I'm like this dude with like a bandana and a ponytail. And I'm like in my mid 40s. And I'm like lying on the couch. And I'm like, I have one kid. And that kid is off like doing whatever because I had them when I was a teenager. And and now I'm just singing very softly into this microphone. And I don't know, I've never done falsetto. I've never sung like projected my voice. And then we made like a whole project. But then something about this one song was really like just interesting to me as like a music fan. And then, and then obviously, you know, the business side comes back in and then you accidentally have somebody from your label hear it. And then they're like, all right, well, this has to be on the record, you know, but they're but you're right, there's something so powerful about the lack of pressure because in some way, it's it's almost like, at least for me, when I think about how things line up sometimes, I do feel like when I started writing stuff from for this album, there was not a lot of pressure because it was coming right off the back of something that I had just completed and spent and like worked really hard to make this like EP that I did that was more like very 2000 early 2000s R&B. And I was like, great, I got that off my chest. Like you said, you're like, cool, I did it. And that's what it is. Now I'm going to have fun. And I think at that point, then I started this album and I was like, now I'm going to have fun and then make these songs that just kind of our combination of a different thing or a bunch of different things that I like. But then even that once that's done, then I'm like, cool. Now I'm going to have fun and do this collaborative project with these jazz musicians that I really respect and then make that its own separate thing. And then me and my friend are going to go to Alaska and do this other side project. And I never been able to fully get into that that state until recently, honestly, just based off of hearing what you what you were saying about that continuing wheel of just like turning flow state without the added pressure of everything having to be the most incredible piece of work that's ever been known to mankind. And you're right that even to bring it back to what we're talking about with the business side of things and like social media and and whatever. I mean, that framework applies there too, like being being so allowing yourself to find the fun and find the flow and find the joy in knowing that it doesn't have to be such a pressure cooker all the time, like there doesn't have to be and obviously doesn't have to be perfect, like nothing is going to be perfect. But even going one step beyond it and being like, not quite like completely nihilistic about it, probably to where it's like it just doesn't matter at all. But it's like the thing that makes this special is the fact that it's going to feel effortless, but there's going to be some level of effortless to miss to it. And there's going to be some some patina of like low stakes, you know, with with this with this work, whether it's a book or, you know, illustration or or music. And that is really comforting. I've never thought about applying that to the like promotional phase of everything also. But I think that's really powerful. And I think, you know, it makes me think, okay, there's another framework kind of hack to your brain. The the one you mentioned about the creative side, this is one that I think about all the time, I think the ultimate hack of the creative side is this is a side project. This is there's no pressure on that. And it's actually like when I, you know, I don't, as I've gotten when I was younger, okay, like my favorite musicians, I constantly wanted them to be like taking it to the next level and at their peak thing, like whatever it is, like you think your favorite band, you're like, I want them to go from this to that and maintain everything I liked from before. But then, you know, I don't know, I just had this kind of weird energy about like how I thought about them. I don't feel like that anymore. Like I feel like, and the reason I say that is because one example I think about a lot is Ben Gibberd. Ben Gibberd when he's making postal service and transatlanticism. And I'm, and I think, you know, if I'm Ben Gibberd and I want peak performance my whole life, then I'm like, I would just be doing side project death cab, side project death cab. And just that is the way you're hacking both sides. And I think Justin Vernon from Bonavair does this super well. That's why he's got a million side projects and then Bonavair because you can just do this. And so getting into that low pressure, I think that's so essential for flow. And then, but then I would say, then I'm trying to think of like, okay. And so what's the hack to get into the other side? And I don't, off the top of my head, I don't know, but I know it's something, but I do know it's something similar to what you said about, okay, it's almost an opposite version of when you were going into that song and you create this avatar. And now you're embodying this guy who just doesn't give a shit. And he's like, whatever it is. And then what's the other avatar that you still can relate to? It kind of feels like embodying an archetype. Where you're like, okay, what's a, what's an archetype of the that I do relate to that I know is a part of me. Because you might have like, okay, this is the Han Solo part. This is the part that's, you know, Luke Skywalker, like whatever they are, these are all the different, there's all, there's a million archetypes. But how do you find the one that's like, that's part of you that can achieve this next phase, which is not about like you said, like, that's the thing it's interesting is like flow is like the effortlessness, but the gut churn, that's like the effort. That's like, okay, now it's time to fricking do justice to this. All of the brilliant moments that happen to create this album. Because now it's got to be now it's time for the guy to get out there and make sure people give it a chance. And it's a different avatar, it's a different archetype. I don't know what that is, but it's, I feel like it's something in that zone. And it's cool because you're like, and the other guy can rest. The other guy, the creative guy. He didn't have to do that for a while. And that's actually going to make him better next time around. But that's so true. I love that idea. That's so cool. You're right. I wonder, yeah, I'm going to dive. I feel like I'm going to be awake till like 4 a.m. thinking about that. I'm going to think about like, maybe there's a musician too that you're like, you know, that person knew how to launch a thing, that person knew how to, you know, and I love them. Because you've got to find one, like, I feel a kinship to this archetype, you know, where it's not, it doesn't feel gross. You don't want to put on a costume. You're like, I hate this. I don't want to be this person. You know, exactly. The last thing I want to ask you about was going, it's kind of in the vein of this avatar thing. I heard you mention like a mood board for this album and like setting the tone. I also love, I don't know when this was, but the tweet about making music for people that have to step away from the social situation and look in the mirror. Like, that's me, by the way, I got to have a few of where I try to gather my shit. I'm like, okay, man, you're with people. That's so real. And I love like, I imagine like, hearing your music in that bathroom being like, okay, like connecting back to myself. But I just thought like, as I'm like looking at everything you do and the album cover, the photographer you worked with feels very like prodigy, chemical brothers, like real like so evocative imagery wise. And so I wondered if you could maybe just that with the avatar thing set some kind of prompt for creators to think about how they get into that priming of what's the tone you're trying to set? How do you get into that, even with synesthetic like leaps of not, you know, you're making music, but you're looking at images like how you can you talk about about that a little bit? Yeah, of course. I feel like thanks for bringing that up because I do feel like every artist is different. Some people, you know, prefer to start from like chords or lyrics and build the whole thing around that. But I really, I love the fact that I could build piece by piece just like a visual world or like a stylistic world. And then I kind of know what it like smells like. I know how cold it is. I know what it would feel like if I got knocked down, like how much dirt residue would be on my elbow, like all of those little pieces I feel like can feed back into the music in such a really interesting way. And it is a little chicken in the egg, like I could go through like a bunch of stuff on my hard drive that I like started. And then I could be like, oh, this thing really connects to me. What is this? And I'll kind of extrapolate from that. I'll be like, this kind of feels like, you know, a screenshot of the movie clockstoppers from 2003 that I got when I got my PlayStation to just random, you know, and then I'm like, okay, clockstoppers is like, clockstoppers. I love it. It's like, I haven't thought of that movie. It's so long. I hope there's one listener who's just like, clockstoppers is my favorite movie. I cannot believe. I'm all about those references that you're like, nobody else would make this reference. That's how you know there's something there. That's great. Right. Yeah. But I'm like, all right, cool. Like there's something there's something that's just like really cool about the way the color grading of this scene of clockstoppers. Yeah. And then like the opening, you know, just, just ambience of like a PlayStation two and then this one snowboard level in this game where they're doing where the music is kind of this like jungly post a Sega Dreamcast kind of like liquid jungle that isn't too electronic, but they're not using the break beats that everybody knows they're not using the Amen break, but they're using something else. And if you know, it's like, then all of a sudden you get like into this wormhole. And for me, once I start seeing the cyclone form, I'm like, okay, let me go on Pinterest and let me, which is probably my favorite social media platform. I would say, I mean, it's just so. I love it. Yeah, like it never breaks your flow. You're just constantly in it. It's it. I don't know what the the AI recommendation models are, but it's just so it's specific. Yeah, right. And then I'm like, okay, I put together this board, but then I like leave the board and then I'm like, oh, but then I heard this. And then if this thing, if this other thing that feels a little bit more like experimental, like R&B mixed with something that is a more like Appalachia, like 10 guitars layered on top of each other thing, then how does that connect with this jungly thing? Oh, maybe it's not about having this acid like synth on top of that. Maybe that's not part of the ingredient. Maybe it's having like an electric guitar that has like a sustained note that I can end on the seventh. And then that goes with the jungle break. And then that electric guitar moment connects to the acoustic guitar moments. And then you know, it's like you get into this flow where you're like, oh, and then that is not necessarily like this scene from The Matrix, but it's this other scene from this like, you know, Disney Channel original movie from 2000, you know, three that came out and nobody really watched it. And then you know, it's like you keep like, it's like you have this block of marble and then you're just constantly like chiseling away and like softening the edges. And I feel like that process is really fun because you're, you're not starting with like, okay, these are the songs that I've written. And like I said, every artist is different. And it's, it's really cool if you can just start from just chords and, and the songs and then you have the songs and you're just living in the sonic space and you're just like, cool, these songs go together. But for me personally, I love like being like, cool, now I have to now I'm going to change now I'm going to lift the vocal from this song and I'm going to take out all of the elements of this music that doesn't connect with this image. And then I'm going to merge together this appellation feeling with this like more gospel choir and then and then, you know, it's like then all of a sudden all the songs start getting more and more coagulated into this vision that also matches the series of images on Pinterest that I have. But then I also go back and edit and add to and reshape. And then all of a sudden I feel like it starts coming together and then the world is building. So then when you're like, Oh, or at least for me, then when I'm thinking of, Oh, what's the title of this? Then I then I see these images and I have these songs even if it's not finished it. And then I'm like, Oh, it kind of feels like maybe like a little bit of like a chemical, maybe there's some biological thing, maybe there's like x-rays. And then I'm like, Oh, x-rays, then that influence that's connected to this lyric. And then this could be the image of this and then, Oh, maybe I want to make the album cover kind of feel like there's like some sort of like weird acid overlay, like in an x-ray imaging thing. Oh, atomic. Oh, there's a song called Adam's on this thing. Oh, that collects connects to the molecular structure. You know, you start just getting out of your mind in a way. Man, it's like, that's the stuff that right there, that right there was one of the best chunks of explaining what it feels like to like be locked into some creative stuff. Like that is exactly the energy. And I'm dude, I'm like, I'm like getting high off that supply. I'm like, I need to go back and do because that's when you're in the thick of it, that's it. And I love what you're saying about it's, you know, you're not starting with the blank page either. Now you're starting with, and I did a similar thing. And one of my most important books that I made or one of my favorite one was I, and I did the reverse where I'm like, I'm starting with a playlist to make pictures. And so it's this, and it's, there's just, I think it's the non-verbal sensory thing. We're like, I'm getting past logic. I'm getting into trusting the symbolism of this, like, and you're, and there's, and then you're saying, oh, and what I'm trying to do, it's in between these things. It's like a, there's like an emergent phenomenon that comes from the mood board. We're like, my thing is this thing that's like not yet, but it's somewhere in this constellation. I love it. And I think that's a really great prompt for creators to take, take the medium that you're not working in, and then create the playlist, create the mood board, and start just feeling it out and looking for the patterns looking in between, because it's somewhere in there. And then it's also something that doesn't exist. It's going to emerge from those things. It's really cool. Exactly. I love the focus of starting in a medium that you're not already deep in the sauce with, because you're right. That's what makes it fun, because you're you're not, you're not, you're not coming from like a technical perspective. You know, like for you, I'm sure if it was just like a bunch of like different illustrations, you'd be, you'd be, you know, thinking about like, oh, it's this, they're using this specific like type of pencil and they're doing it. Yeah. Yeah. It's like doing these clips. Yeah. Exactly. And it's not about it's not necessarily about that. It's just about like, how does it make you feel? And what other emotions line up with that? And then you as just an observer with no connection to the medium? What, what impression does it leave in your brain when you step away from it for a second? And, and that's such a fun place to be, man. I told, I'm totally with you on that. Dude, this was so fun. I got to let you go. But I hope we get to do it again. I hope we get to chat more. And I'm really excited for your album to come out. And I can't wait to see where that goes. And if you want to soundboard, throw anything over, I'd love to, love to chat more. And if you just need someone to help you get into that other zone for a minute. But absolutely. Yeah. This was so much fun. At the time flew by too. I feel like I could, I could keep talking for like, you know, four or five more hours. Yeah. So this is another flow. You can get into this flow as you're on the promo cycle, hopefully. Yeah, man. Yeah. All right. Well, thanks for, thanks for taking the time. Thank you so much, Andy. It's such a pleasure. Yo, I'm back. Huge thanks. Thank you, man, for coming on the show and giving me so much of your time. It was a blast chatting with you. I feel like just taste wise and creatively that we're just cut from the same cloth in a lot of different ways. And then in a lot of ways, you just blow my mind. So so talented and excited to spend a lot more time with your album as it as it comes out in the world. Go check it out, either if it's out already, or if it's not pre-saved on Spotify, the album is zinc by Galant. And you can find him on Instagram as well. So Galant at So Galant. And on that CTA, I'll just quickly summarize it, make a synesthetic leap mood board, take a something that is not your medium and create a collection that has the right feeling and vibe that goes beyond words and kind of get into that zone as you move into this other thing. You know, I've heard these people that temporarily lose access of the left side of the brain, the language side, the logic side, and they talk about all senses bleeding into one. I think there's something there. There's something mystical about how do you tap into something that goes beyond whether it's a picture or a word or a smell or a sight or a sound or whatever. It's beyond that something visceral. And I think capturing that from something that isn't your medium can help you get out of like the tropes and the trends and get into something a little bit more timeless. And I was really inspired by hearing him jam on that. So freaking good. Thank you, man. Hope we get to chat again sometime and go check out his songs. The last song on that album when it comes out. I don't think as the time I'm recording this, it's not out. It might be out by the time I release it. I love the the last song, Lucid. I love Lucid Dreaming, but also it's just the epic ending and Coldstar has such a driving sound. They're all great. It's a great one just to throw on just to have in your atmosphere. All right, man. Thanks. Hope to talk to you again. Good luck with the album launch. Creative pep talk is a weekly podcast designed to help you build a thriving creative practice. But that's the thing. It only works if it's an actual practice. It has to become a habit. We make this show every single week so that your creativity can go from being a thing that you do sometimes to a creative discipline, to immerse you in a world of creatives that are doing the same where those kind of behaviors are normal. One way we help you stick to this is by sending you the new episodes via email to your inbox every single week so that you never miss a week. And we often add bonus content like pictures and links and extra related stuff to the episode that you're not going to get just from the apps. Go to AndyJPizza.substack.com to sign up to the free email newsletter. And I'll have the accountability to stay on the creative path and keep this street going. And hopefully it will inspire you to do the same. And if you sign up right now, you'll get immediate free access to our e-booklet, the creative career path. It's a step-by-step roadmap for creating a project that is designed to unlock your dream creative clients and opportunities. Sign up at AndyJPizza.substack.com. And let's keep this creative habit together. Creative PepTalk is part of the PodGlamorit Network. You can learn more about PodGlamorit at www.podglamorit.com. This has been another episode of Creative PepTalk, a weekly podcast companion for your creative journey. Hey, it's dangerous to go along. Take this podcast with you week in and week out by subscribing to the show to keep you company and keep the best creative practices top of mind so that little by little weekend and week out, you can make progress in your own creative practice. I'm your host, A.J. Pizza. I'm a New York Times best-selling author and illustrator. And I make this show not because I have it all figured out, but because as a squishy creative artist type that's prone to big emotions, it takes a whole lot of creativity to just get out of bed sometimes. So every week I put out the ideas that are helping me stay disciplined and stay excited and have helped me stay on this creative path for the past 15 years plus in hopes that it might help someone else or at the very least help them feel less alone on their own creative journey. Massive thanks to Yoni Wolf and the band Y for our theme music. Thanks to Connor Jones of Pending Beautiful for editing and sound design. Thanks to Sophie Miller for podcast assistance of all sorts. And most importantly, thanks to you for listening and until we speak again, stay peped up. Hey y'all, one more quick thing. Earlier this year, I rebuilt my website using Squarespace's new fluid engine and I was so pumped about how it turned out that I have been really thrilled to find as many ways to partner with them and tell you about what they can do and bring you discounts as possible. With social media going haywire, I think having a site that feels as unique as your creative work is essential to building trust with your target audience or your clients. I have had several clients point out how cohesive and fresh my site looks lately. And if you want to check that out and what I was able to do without any code, check out AndyJPizza.com. If you want to test it out, go to squarespace.com/peptalk to test it out yourself. And when you're ready to launch, use promo code PEPTALK for 10% off your first purchase. Thanks Squarespace for supporting the show and for supporting creative people. How did American politics and our economy become so corrupt? Hi, I'm David Saroda, an investigative journalist at The Lever, former Bernie Sanders speechwriter and Oscar-nominated writer on the film Don't Look Up. Join me on my new podcast, Master Plan, where we expose the secret scheme hatched in the 1970s that legalized corruption for the wealthy. With the help of never before reported secret documents and a few special guests, we'll look back at where it all began and figure out how to move forward. Listen and subscribe to Master Plan wherever you get your podcasts.
