Cultivate Calmness Podcast: Find Your Calm, Cultivate Your Mind
Episode #55 - Narcissism: Beyond the Buzzword
In this episode of the Cultivate Calmness Podcast, host Kaela Vance dives into the complexities of narcissism, challenging common misconceptions and exploring its traits as outlined in the DSM. She discusses the spectrum of narcissistic behaviors, distinguishing between traits and the full diagnosis of Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and reflects on how personal experiences and environmental factors play a role in shaping these behaviors. With insights from her upcoming mental health professionals’ luncheon featuring a guest speaker on narcissism, Kaela emphasizes the importance of understanding and recognizing these traits in ourselves and others, encouraging listeners to engage in a thoughtful dialogue about this often-misunderstood personality trait.
- Broadcast on:
- 18 Sep 2024
- Audio Format:
- other
(upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) Hello and welcome to the Cultivating Communist Podcast. My name is Kayla Vance and today I wanted to ask, what is narcissism really? Do we all really know what narcissism is? Do you know or do we just know what we hear people talking about? And it's kind of a popular term to throw out there regarding certain characteristics and traits of people either that we don't like or that are maybe a little annoying. Well, so today I wanted to ask that question, talk a little bit about it, but also because next week here in Columbus, Ohio, I host a mental health professionals luncheon and our presenter is going to be talking about narcissism and how to kind of treat with and work with people who have had narcissists in their families or maybe are a narcissist themselves. So I wanted to talk a little bit about that and I am not a narcissism expert by any means. It is not my focus area. I did have to do a little more research to be able to talk about it with you today. And you know, that's okay. I don't have to know everything about everything and I certainly don't. And I'm excited to learn more from our presenter next week. And if you are in Columbus, Ohio and you are wanting to join our once a month luncheons for mental health professionals, you can check out my website at tilsowarro.com/events and those are posted usually the month before and usually the last Thursday of the month, sometimes at the end of the year, it's usually the second to last Thursday of the month because as we get into the holiday season, all the holidays tend to fall around that time. So we don't interfere with that. I bump it up to before the holiday, but moving on. What really is narcissism? So if we just go to the DSM, the Diagnostic and Statistics Manual that clinicians use, psychologists, therapists, social workers, counselors, et cetera, we use this book document to diagnose people with any mental health disorders. And if we look at that, there are nine criteria that someone needs to meet. They actually need to meet five of the nine criteria to be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder. So I will go over those with you now. You'll hear what those diagnostic criteria are. And then we'll talk a little bit more about the nitty gritty details and how to kind of parse some of those things out. And so when you're talking about your family member, your friend, yourself, you can kind of look at those things to see, am I really or is this person really a narcissist or do they just have some traits of narcissism? So the biggest one that most people think about when they think about narcissism is that grandiose sense of self, right? I put myself ahead of everything else. I am the greatest kind of like in Beauty and the Beast. Gaston, you might say, is very narcissistic. Everything's about him. He's beautiful. He wants Belle because Belle is beautiful. Belle will make him look good, but he doesn't want Belle because he loves her and because she's smart and all the other good things about Belle. No, he wants her because she is going to make him look good and reflect good on him and he wants to look good and continue to look good and be the best, right? So Gaston is maybe a silly kind of character to represent narcissism in that way. Number two is the kind of the idea of being preoccupied with the idea of like the fantasies of unlimited success, power, beauty, love, et cetera. Like it's a fantasy that they want it, they have to have it, they need it and they're always striving to have those things to be the best at everything. The belief that they are special and unique and therefore they're only understood by other special and unique people and that they only want to be associated with those in higher power who are also special and unique. So that's number three. They have the constant need for like admiration, excessive admiration and needing it like attention and like being boosted. The sense of entitlement was that number five. Number six is they are like they exploit people interpersonally so that kind of manipulative factor that they have on other people, they have a lack of empathy, they have either envy of others or they want others to envy them and then they have like arrogant, haughty behaviors. So those are the nine characteristics that we think about when we think about narcissists and we think about diagnosing them in order to have a diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder, you have to meet five at least five of the nine traits. Okay, and there's more to it than that but those are the traits that you have to meet and then there are certain other characteristics and things that need to happen in order for that to be the case. So the question really is like there's a lot of misconceptions about what narcissism really is. Like I think most people think if you're very grandiose you find yourself to like yourself important, like that's the only thing that makes you a narcissist and as we just went over that's not true. And so when people are calling others narcissists that tends to be one of the things or the main thing that people think about or consider is like that's it. If you have that you are a narcissist. No, you have a trait of narcissism but we all can be a little grandiose. We can all put ourselves first in different situations in different times. So that's where I say that new narcissism as well as most things in life are on a spectrum, right? Most things are not black and white, this or that, all or nothing. We all can have and show traits of something that doesn't mean we have a full-blown diagnosis of whatever it is, depression, borderline personality disorder, anxiety, PTSD, narcissism, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. We can all have traits of those things but never meet criteria for a full diagnosis, okay? So that's what I'm getting at here. The big question that a lot of researchers will pose or are asking and in my research and trying to find some information, I saw this brought up and this is where even psychologists and people who diagnose can disagree. So that's another factor to consider is that you could ask 100 different psychologists about a person presenting to them whether they have narcissism or not and some may diagnose that person with narcissism and some may not, even though they're presented with the same facts, okay? So it can be a little subjective and there are many things to consider. One of them like nature versus nurture. Some say, if you have a narcissistic parent, you're more likely to be narcissistic. Is that genetics or is that nature? Is that because you were born that way or is it nurture? Is it because of the way you were raised, the things that you were exposed to, the beliefs you were raised to have, was the things that you learned, the ways you were treated, the toxins you were exposed to. So in my line of work and what I do with a holistic health, I look at those factors, the nurture type factors. So we could be born with a breast cancer gene that doesn't mean we're going to get breast cancer. It's going to be up to a lot of different factors and what has triggered your gene to basically turn on or be left off. And so if we're exposed to certain toxins eating certain foods, those genes can be turned on and you're more likely to have breast cancer. I believe the same thing happens with personality disorders, mental health disorders is that we can have genes or we can have the susceptibility to have or be diagnosed with these things, but it's our environment. It's the things we're exposed to on a daily basis that are ultimately going to trigger whether those traits come out, whether we are susceptible to fall into that trap of depression, anxiety, or some kind of personality disorder. So it's not, I don't believe that it's just genes and everything that I've seen and everything that I've read and everything that I've experienced in all the years that I've been a clinician, I don't believe that it's just one factor. There are many factors that can turn somebody into the person that they are and there are many factors that can make somebody sick or make them healthy. And I believe that you can heal those things as well. If I wasn't, you know, I wouldn't be a therapist but I didn't believe that you couldn't heal from your traumas and your exposures. That doesn't mean that it's going to be easy. So if you are a diagnosed narcissist, can you heal from that? Absolutely, I think you can't, but I think it would be very hard work for you to do. You have to actively try to fix things and actively recognize that those parts of you are present. So let's see here. So I think that basically you have the capacity to be a narcissist, but you also have the capacity to heal from that, okay? So I had said earlier that we all have a little bit of traits. So I don't know, I'm a theater buff, but I'm not a theater expert by any means. I was raised going to musicals and take into theater and then in my high school career, I did technical theater so I did all the building and running of shows and I still enjoy going to shows and listening to musicals and, you know, those are some of my favorite things to listen to in the car 'cause I get to sing along with them. But one of the songs that comes to mind when I talk about this subject and other similar subjects, especially related to like the nature versus nurture and traits issue is the song from Avenue Q. It's a Broadway musical and the song is called Everyone's a Little Bit Racist. And it's a catchy tune, but what the song basically comes down to is that we all can have traits of something. Like in the song, we're talking about racism and there's different characters from different ethnic and all kinds of like backgrounds and they're all talking about the jokes that they make and the things that they say and, you know, how well, even that can be a little bit racist. Does that make you a racist? No, because we all can have different pieces and parts of us that we think are funny or things that we do that doesn't make us all one thing. And that's what that song talks about in that musical. And we all as a, when I was in training and in my first job, one of the things that came up, I would see a lot of borderline personality disorder in the hospital. I worked in a hospital for my first few years as a therapist and we would see a lot of borderline personality disorder diagnoses come into the hospital. And that would get us talking and we realized, you know, that we all have traits of borderline personality disorder. We all have traits of narcissism. We all have traits of depression or anxiety or not all of us, but, you know, we can, that doesn't mean we have a diagnosis of something. So, you know, for example, if you're in a fight with somebody, like if you get in an argument with your spouse, you're going to basically turn more narcissists because you are, you know, fending for yourself. You want to protect yourself. It's all about me, you know, and you're in that state of mind where you're not empathizing with the other person. That's why you're fighting. And, you know, I'm guilty of that as well. And that empathy can come later when you've calmed down and you realize like, oh, maybe there is another side to this argument or there's another issue present, but when you're in the heat of it, when you're triggered, you can become more narcissistic. You can become more self, you know, self, you feel like self-important and want to focus on you. Does that make you a narcissist? No, that makes you human. Children are inherently narcissistic, you know, because it's all about them. It's all about the ego. It's about me. As they get older, that tends to become less and less, but that still can be present at different times in your life under different circumstances. So, you know, we could all say we're a little bit narcissistic at times that doesn't make us a narcissist. And the last thing I want to point out is that narcissism, like many things, and I kind of mentioned this already, is it's on a spectrum, right? It's not just black and white. It's not like you're a narcissist or you're not. And in reading up on it, you know, there are different sides of narcissism. And I'm probably not gonna get this all correct. Again, I am not a narcissist expert, so I encourage you to do your own research and look up information about this. There are many, many, many, many, many articles about this and many, many, many books. And there are clinicians out there that do specialize in narcissism. So those are the people to really ask, and I'm excited for a presentation next week on narcissism because I want to learn more. I want to be able to identify it in my clients, or their family, and be able to help people through dealing with somebody who shows those traits, 'cause it could be very hard to live with someone who is a true narcissist. But we have like the side of narcissism where it's that grandiose sense of self, but then we have the side of narcissism that's more vulnerable. And I think that's the part that seems to be not talked about as much. And it can ebb and flow sometimes. It can be all maybe one-sided, all on the vulnerable side, all on the grandiose side, or, and then it can go even further into the extreme more what they call malignant narcissism side, which is, you know, if you think of malignant cancer, it's just festering and growing and getting bigger. Those are those people that are lying all the time. They're like they enjoy like inflicting pain on people, whether that's emotional pain or physical pain. They have like no empathy at all. Whereas narcissists, generally, you may show some empathy, but they may be in little spurts, little bursts. You may see a little bit of empathy, but then it pulls back and then it's focused on them again. You know, that they don't like to seek help, right? I can do it, I can do everything. I don't need help because, you know, getting help is a criticism. It means weakness. So we don't want that. They like want attention. They want attention for all their good deeds and all how well they're doing. They want boosted, right? Whereas the vulnerable side, they, those people who have maybe more of that vulnerable piece or aspect are those who are more likely to seek help. So the people who go to seek help for narcissism, you say, "I think I am a narcissist," have some of that vulnerable piece because it's the people who are expressing and experiencing some of that vulnerability that seek help in counseling in general. And so no, not all narcissists are going to seek help, but some will when they have those traits of vulnerability present. So that aspect of narcissism, you know, they may be those who are more empathetic, who are willing to help other people who do a lot for others, but then it's the fact that they are doing those things that becomes the attention and that's where they get their attention and they're doing those things to help others for the attention. Does that make sense? Like, I am doing things to help others and I'm getting attention for that. And I love helping people and I am the people helper, right? It becomes I'm the people helper as the focus of attention versus just doing it because it's a good thing to do. It makes me feel good. I don't have to brag about it. A narcissist is going to likely brag about that and get some kind of boost from helping other people. They can be more sensitive and temperamental. They can react more poorly to criticism, whereas somebody who's more grandiose isn't gonna like criticism and they're not gonna really accept it as much. Whereas maybe somebody who's more vulnerable may hear that and take that and that's gonna piss them off, it's gonna upset them. And they're not gonna like it. And they need that constant reassurance. So it's like the spectrum and it can maybe ebb and flow depending. And so there are some articles that I read that people who kind of experience that ebb and flow and they can feel like they're on top of the world but they can also feel like down in the dumps and like they're worthless. And that could be traits of other personality disorders as well which is why it can be very hard to pinpoint and decide and know how is somebody truly a narcissist or not. So I don't know if I made it any clearer for you whether somebody's a narcissist but I hope I made it clearer for you that most of the people you're seeing in the world who you're calling a narcissist are not likely a narcissist. Narcissists make up from what the research shows about 1% of the population. 1% of the population. So a room of 100 people, you're gonna have one person who the true narcissist. You're not gonna have 10, okay? So if you know 10 people who are narcissists, you know, that may be a little high, you may have to actually look at that and see are these people true narcissists or they just having some of those traits that are really prominent and standing out but there's more to them than those traits and am I missing those things? I hope you found this helpful. If you're a mental health professional and you'd like to join us for a mental health professionals luncheon next week on Thursday, September 26th, Janine Vague will be there talking about narcissism. So I hope you can join us there. Thank you for joining me for today's podcast and I will be back again next week. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (gentle music)