(upbeat music) - You're listening to The Parting Shot with H. Allen Scott. - I love a great supporting actress. You know, the ones who you watch in films, and sure, they're not the star of the movie. You know, their character isn't sort of what the film is about, but you leave the film remembering that person. You know, I'm thinking of performances like from Shelly Winters, for example. You know, how do you watch the Poseidon Adventure and not remember Shelly Winters? I'm thinking of Alfred Woodard. You know, you watch a film that Alfred Woodard's in, and you just leave thinking about Alfred Woodard, at least I do, you know? I'm thinking about these great actors, Olympia Dukakis. How do you watch Moonstruck and not remember Olympia Dukakis? How do you watch Steel Magnolias and not remember Olympia Dukakis? And for me, that person, a person who is in that line of great supporting actresses is Leslie Grossman. Now, you know Leslie Grossman from her many, many, many collaborations with Ryan Murphy. We're talking from the beginning, their beginnings on popular to the many seasons of American Horror Story. And Leslie Grossman has always been that person that Ryan Murphy could depend on for the take. You know, the sort of, the person that can define those quirky characters, the characters that maybe not every actor could sort of step into and make their own. And Leslie Grossman always does that. She always makes it her own. And over the years, she's become better, greater, more quirky, and she's sort of defined this own sort of, she's put her own stamp on the performances in which she has delivered over the years. And now, she has delivered a performance in Monsters, the Lyle and Ericman in this story that will leave you remembering Leslie Grossman. Now, she plays Judelan Smith, who, if you know anything about the story of Lyle and Ericman and Des, Judelan was the mistress of the therapist in which Lyle and Eric told that they had murdered their parents. And that therapist was recording the sessions and that therapist then told his mistress, Judelan, about it. And Judelan scorned very much a victim of this therapist as well, went to the police. And then she was the domino that sort of made all the other dominoes fall in place because it was her tip that led to their arrest and everything that the police needed to make the arrest and thus everything started. And Judelan became this sort of side show within the tabloid circus that was the Lyle and Ericman in Des story. And she became the funny one. Her testimony people were openly laughing at her when she was testifying at trial. And she became kind of a joke in a lot of ways when in reality, she was a very nuanced person. She, yes, she was quirky. Yes, she was a little weird. Yes, she was sort of out there. But she also had a story to tell, a really interesting story to tell. And when you're doing a show like monsters, the Lyle and Ericman in Des story, Ryan Murphy is doing this dance, you know, because of course you have those four central characters, the Menendez family basically. And you have to tell those stories and those actors are in every single moment of this show and they are the show. But then when you have that supporting character like Judelan Smith, when they're a little quirky, it requires an actor who can step into that role and stand out amongst those, of course, amazing four other actors that are in this show, including also Nathan Lane, who delivers an incredible performance in this show. And when you have those other performances that are happening, you need that great supporting actress who can really do this, not overstep the other performances. Well, at the same time, making her portrayal stand out in her own unique way. And frankly, there's no other actress that could do that other than Leslie Grossman. She has done it so many times over the years with Ryan Murphy. And I think now, finally, she will get her flowers for this role. I think she will be nominated for an Emmy. I'm calling it now. I hope it will happen because to me, the Whigs alone deserve an Emmy for her. Now, she just looked and was fantastic in this show. And I have to admit, I'm biased because we are friends, but she is, you really should watch this show. It's, there definitely is a big conversation going on around this show right now on social media. But for her alone, watch and just love to see an actress who over the years has been really working towards this moment, and is one of the best supporting actresses that we have out there working right now. And so Leslie and I spoke about, of course, how she sort of found this character, how she's made it her own, her working relationship with Ryan Murphy over the years. And we talked, of course, about her friendship with Sarah Paulson because I have another chat coming out tomorrow with Sarah Paulson. And I wanted to ask the two of them about each other because I love their public friendship so much. It is so heartwarming and wonderful. So you have all of that to look forward to and so much more. So I'm gonna stop talking because I need to have you listen to this fantastic chat I just did with Leslie Grossman. So go on and grab a snack because I will be right back with Leslie Grossman. - There's more to imagine when you listen. So let your imagination soar with Audible. Audible has audio titles from every genre that will inspire you to imagine new worlds, possibilities and ways of thinking. As an Audible member, you get to choose one title a month to keep from their entire catalog. Enjoy an exciting reawakening of a beloved classic with the Audible Original David Copperfield by Charles Dickens, produced by Academy Award-winning director Sam Mendez, starring Shudi Ghatwa, Helena Bonham Carter and Theo James. This adaptation breathes new life into a familiar tale. New members can try Audible free for 30 days. Visit audible.com/imagine or text Imagine to 500-500. That's audible.com/imagine or text Imagine to 500-500. - How are you, H Allen? It's nice to see you. - I'm doing well. I'm doing very well. I'm so excited for you and everything you have going on. This is incredible. I know that now, of course, this is like tightly underwrapped. So I have not been able to see anything, although I do know this case and you had messaged me saying prepare yourself or the hair that you're about to see because you know my silly dumb heart would be obsessed with the hair. So I want to know how excited are you to be a part of this project? - There really aren't enough words for me to say how excited I am to be a part of it. You know, first of all, I'm from Los Angeles and I was in high school when this happened and I have friends that were in school with Eric and look, the Mendez case captured the imagination of the nation and really the world, right? Because it was the Beverly Hills murder, but it happened 10 minutes from where I grew up and I knew people who knew them. So I was obsessed with it on a whole other level. So it's so fascinating to revisit it, right? And that there was so much I didn't know. And by the way, I watched that trial when it aired originally on court TV. Oh, yes, I was very interested in it. And so the thing about the story that I came to learn because Ryan, you know, there were like a staff of researchers and they researched this for a very, very long time to make sure they were getting all of the things correct that the reality is so much more insane than you could ever imagine. Yeah, it's sensational enough that these murders happen, right? Like on its face. But then all of the players that existed in the universe, it is bananas and too wild to even be believed, but it is all true. Yeah. And, you know, what Ryan says, which I think is so great is he's like, I'm not going to say it as well as he does, but we're not taking a photograph or painting a picture. So, you know, it's not like an exact documentary retelling, but he was very clear about being really grounded in the facts and again, had this really extensive research. So, I was excited just because I thought I knew so much about the case, I was obsessed with the case when it first happened, and then to get to be a part of it, get out of town with this cast, with these people. And, you know, the thing about the world is that it's obviously the actors are beyond bananas, so good. What are you saying, Nick? I mean, my God, Nathan Lane, who I've never met before, I got to work with, which was, like, you know, they always say, don't meet your heroes. How about he was five million times better than I even could have imagined to be just the greatest? Of course. But it's also, there's no better hair and makeup. There's no better set deck. There's no better, you know, like, so everyone is working at such a high level. Like, my character, when I'm really off to the races, all of a sudden, you know, you're the first person I really talked to about this, because we've been on such lockdown. So I'm excited. But when I first got to my apartment, right, the set of my character's apartment, the level of detail in that apartment that will probably never read, right? Like 90% of it. I was like down to the books, down to the every little Nick Mack, every little Chachky, I was like, oh. She's a wild character, too. Wild. And I remember her. Because she was sort of the only, I mean, people laughed when she did her testimony. And by the way, she was not trying to be funny. - Yeah. - But, so she was really memorable, you know, when I was lucky enough that I got to watch her on the stand and look, she's not like a well-known public person, but there was this, I go to YouTube and there's all the footage of her testifying. So that was really amazing. - And what's so, well, first off, before I even get to her, 'cause I do, I have a question about her, but what I find so fascinating about, well, you in this, but also about this case in general, is the time period in which it all takes place. I mean, we're talking early going into mid '90s, Los Angeles, it's the post sort of LA riot situation, but it's the pre-OJ Simpson situation. And there's a big conversation about the Los Angeles Police Department, but also about classism. And class in America. And I mean, we had just elected a Clinton. I mean, it was a whole, it was a just completely different vibe. And I wanna know like, being someone who lived in this city during that time, what was that like in terms of the conversation around this case at the time and the level that class sort of played into it, but then also looking back on it now, you're saying like, we learned so much and even just me looking into this case, like we learned so much that maybe class kind of blinded us from at that time period, you know what I mean? - Well, these, I mean, I'm calling them boys. I mean, they were boys. - They were young men, yeah. - Yes, they grew up in Calabasas and then moved to Beverly Hills and went to Beverly Hills High, which is, you know, and remember that this was when 90210 was on, right? So this is when that was the biggest show on TV. And obviously, just the notion of Beverly Hills itself is this iconic American idea of wealth privilege, excess, and to have these two kids commit matricide and patricide where you would think on its face that they had everything, right? Their lives looked completely charmed from the outside and that underneath, there was obviously stuff going on that was so extreme and I just think the shock of it, you know, remember, I graduated high school in 1989 and that was sort of the ending of the '80s excess and then going into that sort of grunge era, right? - Yeah. - So I do think there was sort of a shirking of that desire to play into that cultural emphasis on wealth and money and show and the culture really did, at least youth culture, really transitioned into a rejection of that, right? So it was almost like the last guest of a very specific time in sort of American culture and in Los Angeles specifically, absolutely. It was sort of like, oh wow, like there's a lot of rot under something that seems so glamorous and beautiful. And I think it was so shocking to people and also you have to remember, I mean, look, my daughter, all her friends, they can't imagine the time without social media. They can't imagine the time without the internet, right? This was where everything was analog. I had a home phone and if you didn't catch me when I was at home, we weren't gonna talk and it was a big deal that I had my own line in my bedroom because two years earlier, you were gonna have to talk to my mom and dad if you called me. So, you know, we didn't get a look into other people's lives in the way that we do now. - Yeah, yeah. - So I think that made it even more shocking, like, what? I mean, I think all the time too about OJ that, you know, look, I went to high school with his children and look, I remember it being sort of an open secret that everyone knew he hit his life. And that was like a thing that kids talked about, which is wild. And there was no TMZ, there was one of these things. The first arrest, he would have been cooked, right? He would have been canceled, cooked, and done. But in that time, like, there was just, you could live a very different life. - Yeah. - And things, you could hide what was happening in a way that you could never hide now. - Yeah. - So I just think there was a certain amount of, I'm gonna say the word privacy, but also you could really put on a public face and have an entirely different existence behind that in a way I don't know that you can today. - Yeah, because we let, I mean, so much of the media, I mean, news we concluded with the OJ case, but in general, so much of the media dictated sort of undirected, I should say, so much of how we understood kind of these things. And with your character, and with it being on court TV and being one of the first cases, you know, there's a few, but one of the first cases that were like televised live, and that we were watching. And of course, the OJ one exploded it, but like this case, and then your character and her role in all of this, you said, I mean, yeah, people laughed at her, but also like, she was shaped by tabloid media, by court TV, by the angles in which, and there was no narrative outside of, for her to even define herself in any other way, other than this kooky lady who is revealing something that took the case in a direction that like nobody saw coming. So I wanna know like, how do you, in the public memory of this person, yes, there is a laughing element to it, there's a joke element to it, but there also is a very real element of this person bravely revealed something that allowed this case to go in a direction, and then they went in lots of other different directions. So how do you humanize someone like this person who we see as so comical, you know? - That's such a good question. That's a really like thoughtful and good question. You know, she was in love, or believed that she was in love with Dr. Jerome Osil, who is the therapist that Eric Menendez had been seeing. And is the therapist that Eric Menendez confessed these murders to, and he was married, he had a family, and he led her to believe that he was going to be leaving that family for her, and he confided in her and really brought her in to this world that was dangerous. He feared for his life, she in turn feared for her life, and look, she got him to agree to move her in with him and his wife and children. And when you see it, will you please call me? - I will. - And when this happens, like please, 'cause we have to discuss this. And when it became clear that their relationship was not going to go in the direction she wanted, she was like, okay, I'm going to go to the police and blow this up. And the truth is, I do not think she was particularly concerned with the murders, with Kitty or Jose Menendez. I think her real goal was to take down Dr. Ozil. It was a personal vendetta. And when you watch her testimony, every time they try to get her to answer particularly prosecution, when they try to get her to really bring it back to what she knew about the specificity of the murders and what happened on the day that they confessed, she just wants to turn that wheel back into the other lane of like, let's destroy the character of Dr. Ozil. So I humanized her because truly she was a woman scorned and she felt used by him. And then her testimony takes a very serious turn where she accuses him of sexual assault, of rape, of brainwashing her, of manipulating her. And I believe that. I absolutely believe that was her experience. But I do think in the end, she was chomping at the bit to testify because she really wanted to take the doctor down. The boys, the murder was sort of secondary to what her main goal was. So I just really leaned into, first of all, that to her, she was a complete victim. And I did not, she's not funny. She's not written to be funny. What she says is exactly what she testified to in court. Some of the stuff is wild and elicited laughs in the courtroom. But to me, it was dead serious. And that is how I played it. That is how I approached her. She was not a clown. She was not there to be a side show. She was a person who was a victim of this doctor. So I just tried to lean into her absolute truth and reality of what she experienced. And to try to humanize her. Because if you read the Ellie Times articles from that time and stuff, she was sort of a punchline and kind of a joke. And wasn't a joke to her. Yeah, yeah, that's so fascinating. And I mean, it gets me to sort of your collaborations with Ryan Murphy and why you played this particular character. And stick with me on this analogy. Because I might come off as sounding weird, but it trusts me, it's a compliment. There, you have an ability. And I know Ryan Murphy probably feels this way too, even though I've never spoken with him about this, that you speak to game in and away that we know you as a person and we wanna see you do all of the things and play these characters, these unique characters that almost only you can play. You know, that you have a particular type that we know we get you. We want to see you thrive and succeed and do these sort of unique characters in this way. And I feel like Ryan sees that and it speaks to the longtime collaboration that you have. So like I, as a fellow gay man, see this character and you playing this character and I get super excited because I don't think anyone else could play this but you. And so I wanna know like that collaboration that you have with Ryan and the communication that you have with him, the artistic communication relationship that you have, how does that impact how you discover the characters you're playing 'cause they're all so wildly different and unique. - Well, first of all, I appreciate you saying that. Thank you. You know, from my earliest days, I have always resonated with queer culture or it's resonated with me and I think I've resonated with it. My mother, when I was eight years old, went back to school to become a landscape architect and she went to UCLA and she would have study groups at our house and it was a majority gay men in those study groups. And so as an eight year old, I was like, huh, whatever's happening here is really for me. Like this is something that's going on. And I also remember that those were the adults that were most interested in me. And we're like, what is going on with you? Let's tell me about school. Tell me about your friends, what's going on. And so my mom jokes, like even from my earliest days, there was always this sort of simpatico. And then, you know, I was raised in LA. I went to a school called Crossroads where we had, you know, this was a high school in the '80s that had like out gay kids at school. And also I had an amazing film teacher and who exposed me to John Waters. (laughing) And so I was like, oh, I love this. Like this was something that I really adored. And then I went to Sarah Lawrence where I always joke about Sarah Lawrence that the only thing I learned was to deepen my friendships with gay men. That was it. That's all I learned. I learned absolutely nothing else. So I understand like I've always had a very strong idea of who I am and how I present. I get it. Like I have a very specific flavor. And even when I think I'm behaving in an entirely normal way and it can come off-- - Same. - As arch, over the top extreme. I guess that's just my nature. That is who I am. That's the essence of who I am. And, you know, I think, look, the first collaboration Ryan and I did was popular where I played Mary Cherry where I went so balls to the wall with that character. And, you know, I really was only ever trying to make Ryan laugh. I always say that. You know, it was like I had an audience of one and I just wanted to hear him giggling behind the monitor. That's what I cared about. And he also wrote me the literally the funniest things that have ever been written, right, for anybody. But what I-- And maybe people are gonna laugh when they hear this. I mean it when I tell you. I always try to ground it in truth. I really, really do. - I think that reads. - I hope so. I appreciate you saying that. Because I know that I'm a lot. I have a very specific face. It's really expressive. You know, people can have lots of opinions about that. And, you know, just getting back to social media, I do wanna tell you that if in the beginning of my career, social media had existed, I don't know that I would have been able to hack it. - Interesting. - Because, you know, when you are not typical and you do something where you're like, I'm gonna try to like earn a living doing something that's not easy, right? Like, I'm gonna have to have some sort of ridiculous belief in myself when every odd is telling me it's never gonna happen. - Yeah. - You know, if there had been a layer of just constant feedback about what I looked like, you know, a picking a part of my performance, whatever. - Yeah. - Which is now, this is now just part and parcel of doing anything that's public facing is that, you know, you're gonna get read on the internet and I don't engage with it. I don't look like it's not healthy for my brain. It's not good for me. But if I were 22, I'd look. And I think I could have been bullied out of a career had I engaged with that. So, I'm lucky that I got to sort of start it again in that analog time. I'm really going on a path with you here. You asked me very specific. - Well, no, it started it with Ryan too, which I think speaks to that, I mean, that growth and that collaboration and how you've really grown as an actor and who you are as a performer with Ryan. - Well, he's let me. - Yeah. - And he's given me opportunity because as you know, people just wanna cast what's the easiest to come and denominator. Like, that's great, perfect. They're in that box, let's go do it. And Ryan, and not just with me, but with his entire troop of people that he works with over and over again, is like, nope, we're gonna see you this way. We're gonna see you that way. And, you know, you can do it. I know you can do it. And, like, he's given me all of these opportunities to do these incredible things. You know, it's gonna be 25 years. We just have 25 years of being friends. And the fact that so early on in my career, I met somebody who was like, I get you. - Yeah. - And I'm into you and I'm buying what you're selling was super meaningful to me because I felt weird and different and think about what was popular when I started acting in 1997, '98. - Yeah. - Like, you know, you had to look a real specific way. There was no body positivity. There was no interest in anything other than perfect looking, beautiful blonde girls. And, you know, Ryan really, and by the way, I'm not, I don't think I look like a troll, but I certainly, I was unique. And Ryan was like, I love that you're unique and let's celebrate that. - Yeah. - And it was such a gift. I was so, so lucky. Also, I adored him from the very second that I met him and there was an understanding and a simpatico and just a total fusion of what we thought was the funniest thing ever. So that was also just pure luck that I met that person when I met that person. - And it really shows. It really shows, which then makes me very excited for whenever you are in anything with him. It's amazing. So I need to end, I have to end things on something that you and I texted about. - Oh my God, we're ending already. - I know, well, I don't want to take up, well, no, I just don't want to take up so much of your time. You know what I mean? - You're not, I don't care. I'm so happy to talk to you. (laughing) - Well, you and I texted about this at Unile My Love for Sarah Paulson. I will literally drop anything to speak to Sarah Paulson. - You'll get a line. - I know. - I know, but I'm pulling out all the stops. I will try to get to the front of that line, no matter what. And sometimes she lets me at the front of the line. But, I spoke with her a couple of weeks ago and you were unfortunately sick and so you couldn't like, I wanted you to get into that conversation. - I should have, I was felled with COVID. - I wanted to say, she said some of the nicest things about you, she went in saying that you were, I'm paraphrasing here, but that you are the type of friend that no matter what level of success Sarah achieves, you will always be there championing her, which is not the case for many people in this industry because there's a lot of competition and there's a lot of egos involved. And that was the crux of sort of why she loves you so much. So I wanna flip it around and ask you, what do you love most about Sarah Paulson? And as you are, are you as obsessed as I am with Sarah Paulson? - Well, I'm more obsessed than you are. I will say that I'm more obsessed. Of course, I mean, I love Sarah so much. And you know, Sarah's been a real true break glass in case of emergency friend to me when some things in my life really went sideways and Sarah was like, oh, you don't have a choice. I am going to walk you through this and I'm gonna walk with you. And first of all, you know, Sarah is so smart. And I always joke about Sarah that she could have been a federal prosecutor. I mean, she is so, so smart and also incredibly psychologically adapt. And she is able to sort of see things from a 35,000 foot view that can help you really put things into perspective. She's also just, she's a real one. And you know, she is a writer die. And you know, what she said, like something I really believe in and feel very strongly about is you should not have anyone that is in your inner, inner circle that does not bring you absolute and total joy. Life is too short and it is too hard. And you know, I'm, I know my lane and I'm very, very comfortable in it. And my only competition is myself. And that is what has kept me sane and able to work in this business. Because someone else's win takes nothing away from me ever. All it does is I say, God damn, my friends are talented. That is inspiring. And I will, and I want to say this about Sarah, that Sarah is no nephobe baby. Sarah is somebody who did it 100% on her own with incredible grit hard work and otherworldly ridiculous talent. And not only does she work so hard, she also just sort of effortlessly has this, it's the thing that cannot be taught, right? But working with her, observing how she does things, it's like a level of excellence that is so extreme. And I find it so fucking, excuse my French, inspiring and motivating. And I just feel like your friends in your life are there to gas you up. They are there to celebrate your frickin' wins. And why would you expect anything less and take anything less from the people in your life? You should never have, and this is gonna sound like I'm talking in platitudes. But if you feel that you have to dim your light, not share something, maybe tone down a really amazing thing that happened, get better friends. Because your friend should be the people in the front row clapping the loudest and clapping the hardest. She just won the Tony for her incredible performance, right? And, you know, I saw it in the early stages, and then I came back because I was like, I wanna see it towards the end of the run and see the, you know, the different stuff that she's added to it, right, exactly. And like, why have friends unless you're gonna like really, really be there for them? So I'm lucky that I met this person later on in my career and later on in my life that I really feel that way about. So I am her biggest fan, but I feel like she's my biggest fan and that she will be the first one to call me when something great happens. The first one to celebrate me, the first one to be like, what's going on? Do you need to talk about this? Like, so that was a long answer. - No, but it really shows. I mean, even our mutual friend, Ellie Glaser, what I mean, he and I've been best friends forever. And one of the things that I always say is like, there's that saying you are the company you keep, but it's like, for me, when a friend of mine, and people often use that in a sort of a bad way. But like, for me, I find that when someone in my friend group succeeds, that just makes me feel better about myself because I know them. I'm friends with this person. What does that say about me even? That means I'm have something, you know? - I would say that people who are high achievers are drawn to you and want to be in relationship with you and one way or the other. So, and again, I just feel like celebrate your friends. Like, honestly, life is hard. Don't make people's lives harder with your shit. Figure out your shit. And if you have shit and something great happens for a friend of yours and it triggers all of these uncomfortable feelings in you, please don't put that on them. Let them have their moments, celebrate them, and then go talk to your therapist and say, wow, this really triggered me and I want to get to the bottom of why that is. - Therapy. - Don't shit on someone's joy. Because you have something that you've got to work out. And by the way, we all have something. We've got to work out. I'm not saying I'm not, you know, don't have that stuff too. Work it out with yourself. Don't work it out on making your friends feel like they can't celebrate stuff with you. - Totally. And I am so excited and ready to celebrate you in this new, I really am. I will be, the amount of posts that you are about to be tagged in is going to be very annoying, Leslie. - I do want to say, I hope everybody follows you on social media because you are like, anything, I learn about everything from pop culture for me. I'm like, oh, A child is putting up stories about this. I've got to watch it. - No, that's sweet. - Like any new show, whatever. But you always have the funniest stuff and the best memes. And you know, you always are like always on the pulse. - I'm a professional fan. And I love, I love to fan out on the people that I love, which you're one of them. So like, you know-- - Me too. I like to do that too though. We're getting some part of the way we work. That's why we work. Leslie, this was fantastic. Thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me. I really do appreciate it. - I love talking to you. And you know, to be continued away from this interview. - Yeah, we'll do it in a more informal chat. - Please, there's a lot to cover. - There is, there is. - Always, always. And I also want your skincare routine. Thank you. - I'll just give you the makeup list. I'll just give you the makeup. - Oh, perfect. That's great. I'm wearing 38 pounds right now. - Same. - Same. - Thank you. Good to see you. - Take care, honey. Bye-bye. - Bye. - Telling you, talking with friends. It's just better. It's just better. It's more relaxed. It's better. And if you would like my list of products that I use to look like a human being on a camera when I'm speaking with people, I can send that to you as well. Thank you for listening to today's episode of The Parding Shot. I am H. Allen Scott. You, of course, can leave a little rating and review for this podcast wherever you're listening to it. And you can follow me at H. Allen Scott on everything. I would love to know your thoughts about monsters, the Lyle and Ericman to story. But I would also love to know your thoughts about Leslie Grossman's wigs throughout this whole entire series. Fantastic. Just fantastic. And of course, you can go to newsweek.com for all the podcasts and news that you need in the meantime, watch something fun today and have a great day. What's next? 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