Kara Chambers and Lee Burbage are “Resources for Humans” here at The Motley Fool. Today David brings them back to the show to discuss some incredibly helpful tools, tips, and techniques you can use to make your workplace culture shine. Thanks to Audible for supporting this episode. Get a free 30 day trial at audible.com/fool.
Rule Breaker Investing
10 More Traits of a Great Company Culture
Thanks to audible.com for sponsoring this episode of Rule Breaker Investing. For a free 30-day trial, go to audible.com/fool. It's the Rule Breaker Investing Podcast with Motley Fool Co-Founder, David Gardner. And welcome back to Rule Breaker Investing. What a pleasure to have you with us this week, and I said us, because it's not just me. I'm joined by my friends Cara and Lee, and this is kind of a redux. You both were so good in December. I'm happy you back in May kind of a moment. Cara Lee, welcome. Thank you. Thanks for having me. I'm going to have you introduce yourselves in a second, but let me just say a few things about this week's podcast. We are the Rule Breaker Investing Podcast, but occasionally we have a little bit more Rule Breaker than we have investing. And so sometimes we do things that aren't investing, and life is full of many things that aren't investing. And I enjoy talking about them. One thing that's very close to investing, although it's different, is business. As investors, we invest in businesses. But as entrepreneurs or employees, whoever we are in the world at large, for profit or not for profit, we work at an organization, many of us. And it's something we spend hours and hours doing. In fact, I would say, looking back on my life, I've spent a lot more time working than I ever did investing. If you're investing foolishly, you probably aren't doing a ton. So you spend a lot more time outside of the world of investing as a foolish investor than you do actually investing. And at work is where a lot of us spend a lot of hours in carrot chambers and Lee Burbage have been with our company both more than 10 years now, overseeing helping us be foolish. We talk about people and culture a lot at the Motley Fool. I've talked about certainly on our podcast before, and in December, I'm going to plug this right now, December 2nd of last year. You can hear 10 traits of a great company culture in which Lee and Cara brought their top 10 list of ways to improve your company's culture. And I think everybody enjoyed it so much. We got a lot of great comments that we, in fact, it's the longest podcast we've ever done on a real break or mess. It was 35 minutes. And I highly recommend if you enjoy what you hear this week, go back and listen to that. There will be a little bit of overlap, but mostly new stuff. A lot of stories is what you both have brought. Cara Lee, welcome. Thank you. Cara, can you briefly introduce yourself? And I was going to ask you to say one foolish thing about you, but I remember what you said last time. Somebody put that out there already, which is that you know every one of our employees, 300 plus employees, birthdays. And that's pretty foolish about you. So you have to say one new thing or maybe say something foolish about Lee and then we'll vice versa. Sure. And happy birthday, David. It's coming this week. Well, that is, I appreciate that Cara. I didn't expect that. Yes. 50, in fact. In fact, imminent. Congrats. Yeah. So my name is Cara. I work on people insights. At the full, I've been here 10 years. One foolish thing about Lee, speaking of telling stories, Lee can take any leadership moment. And he, he owes his two sons Kyle and Sean royalties and turn them into a story about parenting and his kids. And we've all been inspired by Kyle and Sean, it worked. We really have. In fact, as they've grown up, we've kind of grown up with them because Lee on a regular basis, as a great storyteller, tell stories about things that he knows best. Yeah. I like to tell stories. It's a powerful, powerful communication tool I find. Spoiler. You've been at the company, Cara, you've been here at 10 years of the fully 17 at the full? Yes. Something like that. And a little bit more about you. Yeah. So I work here on the people team with Cara. It's been most of my time on coaching. And because I've worked with Cara for over 10 years, I can say that she has had one of the greatest impacts on this culture of any fool that's ever worked here. And one way that I know that she does that is she maximizes her time. She is the largest user of something called TaskRabbit. And every day, she surprises me with new things that she's getting other people to do for her. Everything from putting furniture together to taking care of her dog, it's incredible. This may turn into a brief blog session for TaskRabbit, not a sponsor of this week's rule breaker vesting podcast, but TaskRabbit, if you want to, I'm a big fan as well. It's a really wonderful service. Cara, could you just briefly share what a TaskRabbit has done for you within the last month or two? Sure. If I put furniture together myself, I will fall off of it, it'll fall apart. Like the TV will come crashing down. And so you can hire people to do this. My brother lives in Pittsburgh, so it's too far away. And so people who, you can hire someone to come in and help you put your furniture together, put up curtain rods or whatever, all the things that I would do very haphazardly and poorly myself. So, TaskRabbit. Yes, a site where you can go on and just hire someone to do stuff for you. Right in line at the Apple Store, the list goes on and on of what TaskRabbit's are doing. A fund service. Okay, good. Thank you both. Now, let's queue it up. So we've got, you both have brought 10 points again. These are mainly stories about aspects of a good company culture. I mean, it's a lot of our same topic, but largely all new material, things that you've recently thought about, seen what works and what doesn't at companies and organizations. I know you've set it up. You even submitted your points to me ahead of time, which is way above and beyond the call for rule breaker investing. Largely made up on the spot most of the time, but Lee, it looks like you're up first for story number one this week. Yeah, thanks. I was reflecting on a conversation I was having with a friend about a company training program they were involved with. So lots of companies out there, you have a training and development program, and they were complaining that they were not having enough time to do their job writing proposals because they were in the middle of taking a class at work about how to write proposals. And it struck me as quite odd that they were spending time writing actually bogus proposals in class to learn how to write real proposals for the company. And my suggestion to them was you should combine those two activities. So recently we had a class in our internal university to teach people how to code in Python, and one of the prerequisites to code in Python to join this class was to come prepared with a project that actually needed to be done at the company. So you weren't just learning to code or learning to write hello world, you were learning to code while actually doing a project that was important to the business. There was ROI on that training and development. So we try to make every learning here have some return on investment, not just for you the learner, but also for the company. Wonderful. Cara, did you sign up for that course? I did. I did. I didn't stick with it too long. Coding is not easy. It gave me a lot of new respect for our developers and the things I ask them, can you make this work? And they somehow, I used to think they just magically did it and no, it is difficult. I didn't have the guts to sign up for the course, but we were oversubscribed. Yeah, we were. And not everybody made it to the end perhaps, but that's wonderful. So ROI on even training. Yup. Love it. Next. Number two. Okay. We're talking about people analytics and at a 300 person company, you think what could you possibly do with people analytics? But one example we've learned is a company called Cultramp helped us do our surveys. We used to do our employee surveys in a Google Doc. And then we'd say, huh, X percentage of our employees are unhappy about this. And we'd just sit around and guess and see if we could figure it out. Cultramp gave us some ways to slice and dice the data. We got our business intelligence team involved. We can look at whether you've been through training, whether that has an impact on your happiness, whether you have participated in leadership development, whether you report to someone who has, whether you're an extrovert or an introvert. So we've been able to slice the data in all different ways and it really helped us focus our next actions on those, like our recognition program or other projects we do. Now, as Cultramp, something, if I'm a small business owner and I hear you talking about how it's been helpful for you, can I sign up for that? Is that something on the internet? Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. Yes. It's a very clean surveying tool. Yes, we've learned a lot. Now, what about awesome company out of Australia? Oh, a lot of people mentioned SurveyMonkey. Have we tried SurveyMonkey before? How does Cultramp match up against, let's say, SurveyMonkey? I think SurveyMonkey is more broad. Cultramp is very specifically about people and culture. And what they will do is we send them our data and then they put it in the back end so we can analyze, oh, hey, women in tech have scored this way. People over 35 have scored this way and so that's helped us, it blends in enough to keep their anonymity and privacy, but it also helps us kind of focus our efforts in saying, oh, it looks like our international team is struggling with communication for headquarters or something like that. And that was going to be my next question, Kara, is if I'm an employee, is it truly anonymous? Am I protected? A lot of people might wonder, those management people, they actually know who answered that question that way. No, we asked them about that. We said, what if we saw a comment in there that was really bad and we were worried about the person, they said, no, sorry, we still can't give you the data. So what you do is you just kind of can narrow it down just enough to learn a story about a different demographic. And again, it could be a department, it could be a level of tenure, maybe you're struggling your first year here, connecting with people, or you don't participate in wellness and therefore your social connections are lower or something like that. So we've just found some interesting things. None of those are necessarily true, it's just stories we could possibly tell from that data. Wonderful. All right, so those are our first two. Number one was ROI, even on training. Number two, data is powerful and that culture amp tool. In fact, let's keep numbering these and headlining them, Lee. Nice. What's number three? I'm going to call lead with caring. So a quick story about an employee that was coming back from parental leave. So they had had a baby, they had been in an out a period of time and they were coming back and they approached us and said, hey, you know what, I had perfectly planned out my daycare situation so that I could come back to work. After day one, I already realized I've made a mistake. This is not a daycare that's going to work for our family and I need to be home with my child until we figure this out and so I need some extra time. And for a lot of companies with strict policies around that, that can be a difficult decision. Hey, you've just been out a large period of time. Now you're just coming back and you're asking for more time and our lead right there is with caring and to say, absolutely, you should take care of your family situation. And what happens is by us giving them, let's say, an extra week or two, it's an incredibly important thing for that individual. Those two weeks are super powerful. As a company, a month, six months, two years later, we are never going to remember how much time someone did or didn't take off. It's going to be a blip really for a company. But for that individual, it could be life-changing. So, Karen, I really try to take the time to make sure we're making caring decisions in the moment that can be powerful for the individual and easily absorbed by the company. And can this ever backfire? Have you ever kind of led with caring and find yourself hurt or not rewarded? I mean, I guess it could, but I think the downsides are so small, really, it's difficult to go back and look at a decision that you've made where you've made a caring decision and it can be wrong. Again, a large company can handle a lot compared to what an individual or a family may be dealing with. So, I don't know, we've had great success, I think, really caring for the individual. And just earning the loyalty of that person, I mean, I think most organizations are going to find among their most loyal employees will be the people that are treated with that kind of caring, yes? Yeah. You're building something that's really important for that individual who's going to be loyal to you for years to come. Karen, what's number four? Number four is it's kind of tying into leading with caring, resource for humans. So, at the full, we all pick our own job titles and our head of benefits, Christine. She picked her title as resource for humans instead of human resource. Resource for humans. Yes. And I just really like that. So, one example of a benefit we have that's caring is the Fool in Need program where it's totally opt in. You can put in a dollar or two per paycheck and there's three people, it's confidential, who manage this fund if anybody runs into personal difficulties in major tough life situations. And so, rather than taking up collections for people and not having it to go public, it's private and you can approach the committee, it's a team of three, I think Lee's on it, I'm not on it. Like, we need help or something like that. So, I just think Fool's always want to help each other out. It's part of the family. And that's just a benefit of an example of something that we do here. And I just like that we call it resource for humans because that's kind of what we try to do. So, this feels like something that regardless of the size of my organization, we could or should be doing. I might just be a manager at a Starbucks with, let's say, 10 employees, you can definitely have it right there. Or I might be the CEO of Starbucks with more like a hundred thousand employees or whatever it is these days. And you could be doing it at that level too. And what's nice is you may never know what you contributed to, just knowing that you're helping somebody and they don't have to go out and tell the whole world what's going on with their life. I think that's just powerful. We just trust people. So, Lee, how long have you been on that committee? I've been on that committee since it started and it really came up the first time because we had a fool who was facing a difficult financial situation. So, even in our world where as fools we're trying as best we can to plan for every life event, we can all get in situations where we're in some trouble and we need some help and we're not sure where to turn. We are friends and we are community. We want to help each other out. And so, we're all able to put a little bit of money into this kitty. And we really try not to ask a lot of questions. And so, if someone comes forward and says, "I'm in trouble," we like to say, "Great, we're here to help and here's some money to just get you over that hump." And we tend to, you know, people respect the program and the way that it works and we just trust each other not to take advantage. So, those last two points, number three and four, a lot just about humanity. Yeah. I know Aaron Kormiller, one of your Motley Fool peers here at The Fool is not in the office day because she's at something called work human. Work human. Yes. And this is, I mean, I guess we're part of the movement, right? We're human. We're working and it's all about humanity in the workplace. Yes. Very different from the traditional human resources is where you are a resource. So I think regardless of what position or station you find yourself in life is you're listening, you can kind of ask, "Are we doing that where we are?" Any good workplace, any good stock really, any good company that I want to invest in sustainably, I hope, is increasingly realizing this. We don't expect every corporation or every organization to get all this or even buy into it. Sometimes some things work in one culture better than another. But yeah, the humanity of it all. Okay. We're going to shift though because I see number five Lee is called projects not hierarchy. Yes. So we are a company of 330 or so fools and we proudly have very little turnover. And so that means people come here and they work for a really long time. So you mentioned I've been here 17, 18 years, Kara has been here 10 years. And so for Kara to move up the corporate ladder, she would need to poison my coffee or push me down the stairs or something along those lines, or maybe hire someone from Task Grabber to do that for her. You can totally do that. This is going dark right now. And so it's important though in people's lives to have progress and to feel like they are moving in their careers. And so the way that we do that here at the Fool is through a project based culture. And so a quick story that I was speaking with one of our highest performers recently. And as we tend to do asking him how happy he was and was the company doing everything we could to enable his happiness. And he's like, well, you know, I'm a nine out of 10. And so I like to follow up with, well, how do we get you to a 10 out of 10? What's holding you back? It goes to 11. Exactly. How do we get to 11? And so he said, well, you know what, I'm a nine because I'm doing the project that I commissioned, the one I always wanted to be working on. I'm part of that team. And I'm loving it. So I'm like, well, what's holding you back from a 10? He said, the only thing holding me back is I'm already thinking about what's the next project that I'm going to be on and starting to plot that out. And so that's the way that we like to encourage folks here is we want them to be doing the work on the projects that they love, doing the type of work that they love with the teams that they love. So we're continually trying to encourage people to be looking for what's that next big project and difference you want to make. And it drops away. They're not thinking about titles. They're not thinking about a corporate ladder or hierarchy. They're just simply thinking about what's the type of work I want to be doing and how do I get on that next project to be doing that. So it has to be also true that you're going to tend to cross train and meet lots of other people at your company or your organization because projects presumably are pulling in different types of people and mixing and matching new groups. Yeah, absolutely. And in fact, most fools here are working on any number of projects at one time. It's rare that someone would just be on one project team. You might be on four or five different ones on all different parts of the company. You may be working as part of our diversity committee while you're also programming something for the site and planning a member event. So you get to meet all kinds of different folks, get all kinds of different experiences and discover new areas you might not even know you had talents in and then move into that area to work. All right. That's about half time. I think that's five points. So thanks to Audible.com for supporting this podcast today. Audible.com is a leading provider of audiobooks with more than 250,000 downloadable titles across all types of literature, including fiction, nonfiction and periodicals. Carolee, is either of you an audible subscriber, big fan. Where, why, when or how? So when I first took this job, I commuted from Baltimore. So that's a good hour long boring drive and traffic. And that's where, like, it just takes you away. I highly recommend the Harry Potter series on Audible. It's the best way to absorb Harry Potter, I think. Audiobooks are great to listen to when you're commuting, as Carole just mentioned, an hour from Baltimore. Wow. Nice. You must really like the fool. Thanks, Carolee. Yeah, I moved to six months later. Walking the dog at the gym. There are listeners, Audiblee's offering a free 30-day trial. So just go to audible.com/fool, browse the over 250,000 audio programs, download a title free, and start listening. It's that easy. In fact, you've probably heard me talk about Michael Lewis' book Moneyball on this podcast. You can get the audiobook of that. Again, get a free 30-day trial at audible.com/fool. That's audible.com/fool. Working with different types is number six, Carolee. So at the fool, we're kind of methodology agnostic. Some companies are StrengthsFinder, Colby, Myers-Briggs, Les McEwins, The Synergists. There's a couple different types, but things that help identify how you like to work, how you work best. And some companies are very religious about what type you are, and this is the type of work you have to do. And for us, we meet with fools early on in their career, and we have what I call an all about you meeting, and just talk through all these different assessments. And what we get at is, instead of just saying, hey, this is how you work, here's what you might run into. As an introvert, you may have a hard time coming up and contributing in meetings. So that's something you want to think about when you're working with your extroverted colleagues or as a quick start, someone who likes to get things done quickly, you may frustrate your coworkers that are more methodical. And so just helping people knowing that we're all different types here, and it can be any type of personality type. Just helping them understand that how you work is not how everyone else works, and just learning to adjust as you go, and it's always going to be a little uncomfortable. And if we were all the same, we would not nearly be as creative. So we talk about cognitive diversity and type diversity a lot here. Well, and talk about how about cognitive frameworks, because, Cara, I think you know more different ones than most like a lot of people don't know any, and then some people know Myers-Briggs, which I think I kind of know. But you just shot out about three or four extras. Could you just briefly mention a few and give a one-sentence description of each? Because I think a lot of us are interested in these kinds of things. So Myers-Briggs is kind of the most common one, and you can Google that anywhere. Find out which game of thrones character you are and things like that. Colby is something is K-O-L-B-E, Colby, that talks about kind of how you use your energy on a project, whether you like to jump right into things, whether you like to set a process. That's Colby. Strengthsfinder was developed by Gallup. They will print you out a beautiful 20-page document all about yourself and your strengths. I find that useful when someone's a little lost, looking for their next project. Just kind of identify, are they a good problem solver or something like that. And then finally, we're big fans of the author Les McEwen. He wrote a book called The Synergist. You can Google that, and that talks about what role you play in the business as it's growing. Are you someone who likes to get in the startup phase? Are you someone who likes to develop a process and organize? Or are you just the person that likes to break through a red tape? So there's all types right there. And again, probably if we put them all together, I'd probably have 50 different types for each person. We are all special snowflakes here. That's remarkable. So those are just some examples. You can Google them. I will tweet them out after this. Wonderful. And at the end, I'm going to ask you for a website plug that you both work on and also your you on Twitter, because I'm sure a lot of people would like to know. Does anybody make the weakness finder, by the way, as soon as someone comes to the marketplace with strengths finder, it strikes me that there's a business opportunity there for helping people find their weaknesses. You are going to help me make a bonus addition to this. So we talk a lot about it. Focus on your strengths. It really talks a lot about getting from A to A plus rather than B minus to B plus. And just think about if are you weaknesses getting in your way and if not, focus double down on your strengths. That's true of everything we do. You don't need an assessment to say otherwise. Absolutely. In fact, I was definitely tongue-in-cheek talking about weakness, because we're really about positivity here at the Motley Fool. I know a lot of listeners are as well. So many business owners, you have to be positive. That's the best thing that causes you to persist from one year or even sometimes decade to the next is just that believing in what you're doing and being positive. All right. We're coming down the home stretch here. We've got numbers 7, 8, 9, and 10, 7, Lee. What is it? Yeah. So 7 is a challenge actually that Karen and I are trying to unpack right now. And it's about flexible and guidelines and not policy. And so we got some feedback recently that because of our project-based culture and the speed at which we move as a company, we're often moving people into roles without posting them that as a formal job that people could apply to. And so we heard that feedback and we said, "Gosh, you're right, fools. We need to do a better job of creating those kinds of opportunities so other people can apply." So we came out and said, "We will post 100% of jobs all the time." And we have found pretty quickly that being that absolute and having a strong policy of we will post all jobs- Total transparency at all points. Yeah. It's causing some problems. And so we've actually, I think we've led at the company this way for years, which is, instead, let's try to make the right decision balancing all parties' interests. So what we found fairly quickly was there are situations that are good for the employee and good for the business where we don't need to post that job. And there are situations where we do need to be posting that job. So right now, a challenge that Karen and I are facing, we don't have the perfect answers yet, are we're trying to step back from this 100% absolute policy because what we like to go with, Karen and I like to talk about guidelines. So let's have a good guideline that's a leading indicator for everyone and then let's all get together and try to make the best decisions we can, again, taking the individuals and the employees' needs into account and trying to be as Karen as possible. So is it fair to say, Lee, your policy is that there is no policy. That's correct. That's correct. And is that itself a policy? Oh, gosh. You've got me. That's a guideline. It's a guideline. It's a guideline. All right, Karen. Number eight. I'm already realizing that I probably should know more about this and I'm a little bit unstudied about this and this is important. Number eight. Okay. Let's talk about we're all biased. This is about unconscious bias and I just wanted to plug this here in the podcast about a year or two ago, we usually send a representative from the Motley Fool up to Wharton Business School to go to the People Analytics Conference. And what they heard last year was Google starting to talk about unconscious bias. So basically if you have a brain, you're biased because your brain makes shortcuts. And you make quick decisions that you don't even think about with them. Some of them are good and some of them are not good, but the idea is to help you make better decisions. So as our team went and visited, they heard about this a year ago, we put it into place here. We started teaching some classes and we handed out whenever we do employee feedback, whenever we talk about development, it's helped us with our hiring. I'm just thinking about we all just take mental shortcuts. And so if you Google the implicit association test, you can learn more about it to study done by Harvard. I just think as you're talking culture, it's kind of just one of the new up and coming things that is really starting to take off. And so a year later, when my team went up there to learn about people analytics, they said, "Oh, they didn't even discuss it. Everybody's doing this now." So these companies are really starting to embrace unconscious bias and I'm guessing it would help in investing or any other decisions, but the concept is we all take mental shortcuts and we can all be better decision makers. And so when you're making decisions about people with your guidelines, it helps to make better decisions. Do you have a sense of how much this is out? I mean, you just described it as out there in the marketplace for all those who know. A lot of us, this is still relatively new material. If I own my own delicate tests in and I have 12 employees, do I need to do an unconscious bias workshop with my team? It can't hurt. It can't hurt. What am I typically going to learn? Sell me on it a little bit. Okay. And so I should back up and say, "Everybody in the people analytics world," which is pretty small. Okay. You're talking about this. And so I would say things like, "Are you unconsciously reacting to gender or accent or introversion, extroversion or anything like that? Or are you unconsciously reacting to anything? And is that coloring your decisions even when you're not aware of it?" So when you take this implicit association test, it kind of just tests your brain and says, "Are you mentally associating words with people?" And there's some study, I think, in this area that simply the act of talking about it and becoming aware that it exists actually reduces your bias. So you can never get down to zero, as Cara said, but just the act of investigating it a little bit. If you went out online and just did some, if you're a leader and you just go and read about it a little bit online, just the act of educating yourself about the topic will help you. And I think just saying, it's not only bad people of bias, it's, "We all have bias." If you have a brain, you have bias. Yes. Well put. Number nine, Lee, thanks. So this one is called, "How we do as little as possible," which is fun to say out loud. So Cara and I work with a designer here named Doug, and we would typically go to him with a new project idea. And his first response would be, "How could I do as little as possible," which yet first can be off-putting until you understand the concept of really he is just trying to do things in very simple and easy ways. And one place that we've seen that happen internally here is in our space design. So our physical space and the layout of the office, it used to be that we would do lots of study, we would ask lots of questions and really try to lay out the space really specifically for exactly how you'd need it. And then lo and behold, very quickly, within weeks often, people change the way they work or project, and all of a sudden you're stuck with this very specific space. And so instead, we look at space design and we say, "Let's try to just keep it as open and easy and flexible as we can because who knows how needs are going to change." So we love to embrace Doug's philosophy of, "How do I do as little as possible?" Wonderful. Back to my English major at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, a lot of us probably came across the concept of Occam's razor, a medieval trope, but one where it's all about just what is the very least quickest, most efficient way I can get anything done. Occam's razor writ large now here in 2016 in the workplace, Lee, not a lot of people listening, even if they've been around the Motley Fool for a long time, have visited Fool HQ. Could you just briefly describe what it looks like to walk around Fool HQ? Sure, I can give you a couple examples, first of all, of course we have no offices here. It's a big open office environment, no individual offices that is, and we like to have everything on wheels. So our office actually changes literally every day, and it's because people have the freedom to move about the cabin. They can roll their desk, roll their chair anywhere they like, depending on how they're going to work. So we've given up trying to predict what it is that you need to work and instead give you maximum flexibility so you can change every day, every minute to work the way that you'd like to. And obviously it's lots of very good-looking people as well. That doesn't change. And you're right, even our CEO, Tom Gardner, has no, there is no office at the Motley Fool. No corner thing to dream about one day, maybe getting that spot. But if you really want to be anywhere, you just wheel yourself over. All right, Cara, take us down the homestretch, number 10. Okay, so this is one we're talking about currently, and we are just testing some things out. And so what we've learned is every employee really wants to talk about their development with their boss. And everybody thinks they want a performance rating. They want to get their grades. But as we know with bias, and there is no way to actually accurately rate someone's performance unless you're stamping out widgets or something, how do you have that conversation? So what we've been trying to do is help guide our leaders, Lee and I and our team kind of help guiding the leaders and setting them forth to say, "Here's where I think you're going." And asking people ahead of time, "How do you think you're doing? What kind of signals are you getting?" And just helping align those conversations. So that's what we've started going down a path. But I think the dilemma that we're trying to solve for, that every organization's trying to solve for, is you can either have no system or anything, no framework, and you just go in cold and you just wing it, which can be challenging for anybody who's leading people. And it can be confusing at the end of that conversation. Or you go to a 95-point system where you're rated in the fake scientific way. And so which is difficult and painful and everybody in that false precision that comes with that versus the kind of uncertainty that comes with no framework. So we're trying to help our leaders come up with simple frameworks. But what we do know is everyone wants a good conversation about their development. It's important, everybody. All right. Cara Chambers and Lee Burbage, every day, work to make them oddly fool a better place. Thank you both for your work at The Fool. And I'm sure some of us listening, I hope, have that same experience in their workplace. And then there will be those who would love to have somebody like Cara or Lee or that mentality alive in their workplace. My purpose in having you both back once again, and let's make it every six months, shall we, is I want business people and people really working in any organization to hear something new, to be maybe challenged, how they do what they do. And also, because we have a lot of listeners, we love it when you share back what we can learn from you. Because a lot of what Cara and Lee presented today, we've learned from other organizations and just start to internalize here at The Motley Fool. So I'm going to ask you to go out on Twitter this week. If you're a Rule Breaker investing listener, and if you want to use our hashtag @RBIpodcast, give us a tip that works in your workplace. We'd love to hear that and learn from that. If I get some good ones, I'll make it part of our mailbag later this month. Cara, Lee, you're both on Twitter, right? Could you just briefly give if I want to follow you, Cara, who are you? TMF Cara, The Motley Fool Cara. Excellent. Cara the K. Cara the K. Lee be a fool. Lee be a fool. Excellent. And the website where a lot of your work where you write and talk about how you work and what we're learning about the workplace is culture.fool.com. Excellent. Well, thank you once again for listening to this episode of Rule Breaker Investing. And if you enjoyed this week's podcast and you'd like us to do more of this kind of thing, hey, drop a review wherever you are. I tune Spotify, wherever you are. Let us know what you thought. Next week, I'm going to talk about buyouts. So we're going to go back to the world of investing in stocks and talk about when companies get bought out. Till then with Cara and Lee, I'm David Gardner. Fool on. As always, people on this program may have interest in the stocks they talk about. And the Motley Fool may have formal recommendations for or against. So don't buy or sell stocks based solely on what you hear. Learn more about Rule Breaker Investing at RBI.Fool.com. [MUSIC]