Boston Public Radio Podcast
BPR Full Show 9/26: NY Mayor Eric Adams Indicted
Chuck Todd on VP debate preparationsAndrea Cabral reacted to the execution of Marcellus Williams, and the indictment of New York Mayor Eric AdamsLewis Black, the longest running correspondent on the Daily Show, and the voice of that angry red guy in the Pixar movie, joined to discuss his final tour, called “Goodbye Yeller Brick Road"Melissa Ludtke spent decades as a sports reporter, who famously broke gender barriers in baseball when she sued to be allowed in the Yankee locker rooms. She writes about it in her new memoir Lock Room Talk: A Woman’s Struggle to Get InsideAITA for stealing a fry off of someone's plate? We debated with listeners
- Broadcast on:
- 26 Sep 2024
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Right now, however, we're joined online by noted arachnologist, I think I'd see you pronounce it, and Chief Political Analyst for NBC News, Chuck Todd, has also hosted one of Marjorie's favorite podcasts and mine, the Chuck Todd cast. That's right. Good morning, Chuck Todd. Flying fighters? That's what she says. Yeah, they're huge. You know, Miami, we have flying cockroaches, which do exist, and they-- oh, it is-- there is nothing that freaks people out more, and they see the cockroach start flying. Oh, my gosh. Can you imagine? Really? Yeah, well, I hope not to see any of myself, but I guess we spotted one. We spotted one. Before I know, it's going to be thousands. Well, the good news is the legislature will never see it, because they're on a five-month vacation, so it's beautiful. Ooh, there you go. Thank you very much, Chuck. I've always been like, weirdly, like, regular horror doesn't bother me. Creepy bug. I'm horror stuffed, always bothered. Arachnophobia, that movie. I hated it. Remember what was the "Tales of the Crypt"? They had crazy, bug stuff that used to make me, you know, and anyway. I miss that one. Thank God. When you get raised with flying cockroaches, you're supposed to die. Okay. Because cockroaches can't be 24. But I'm bummed. I was waiting. Thank you. I know I'm fans with the slow pace of the judiciary involving his many infractions and indictments, et cetera. But now, Jack Smith has a chance to present this 180-page document, I believe, to Judge Chuck Ken. That is the document, the documents and the investigations involving his efforts to basically overthrow the election. Could this be kind of an October surprise, and do you think she's going to tell us what she's learned in these releases? Well, that's the question I have. Does he use it? And there's been some speculation that Smith might do this, right? Basically, I guess you'd call it a speaking indictment, right? Is that the correct phraseology here? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Sorry. Where you tell everything you have, you sort of weave your evidence into the case, you put it in the public filing, you know, so basically you're making your accusations public and you're making your evidence public. And if there's some new pieces, you know, here's how it could have an impact. If there's just something new, oh, they found this, or they found this, or Jack Smith had this. I mean, it is one of those where, you know, at this point, if you suck up a new cycle or two on January 6, that doesn't help him, and that certainly probably helps her. So in that sense, it can have the type of impact in that search taking away messaging days, you know, if one day is dominated by it, even just one day is dominated by that. You know, I should have talked to a real lawyer other than just myself before asking this question, but it's too late now. So the filing 180 pages, as Margie says, goes to Chutkin, Judge Chutkin. She decides not Jack Smith from what I understand as to whether any of it is made public at any time prior to November 6th. She decides I'm going to make it public next Tuesday. I'm making this up. This is the part where I'm not sure if I'm legally right. Donald Trump appeals her decision, assuming he can, and it goes to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court says it's so prejudicial to release this document prior to and so close to an election that will not allow it to happen. Is that a preposterous scenario, Chutkin? I, you know, I just, I assume it's Chutkin herself that won't do it. Really? Really? You think so? I mean, do I think that about her, I'm not going to say I know her well enough, but haven't we experienced this a lot with judges, right? You know, including the former judge that's the attorney general, there's always more caution. There's always more caution. That's, you know, it's part of the job, right? In some ways, we want that from our judges generally, right? That they're not, that they're, you know, that it is so, you know, we usually generally want that. You want sort of a more methodical, I guess, way of dealing with things. So I, I'm skeptical it all gets public, but there's a, if it, like I said, if it does, you know, he'll do his usual, oh, they're trying to use the court to get bad news out about means, et cetera. But it's a lost day. It's a lost two days. And remind me, look, January six, does that pull well? Okay. That's the problem. You know, the problem, you know, he has his soft Republicans who aren't going to vote for him. The question is, are they going to vote for her? And by the way, for those who doubt Chuck's historical analysis, let's just remember Judge Murchon, obviously in the New York City case, postponed the sentence and Donald Trump post conviction until after the election. So while it's not legal precedent, it's real precedent in terms of how to handle it. But you know, you know, just one of the things I get the debate, he used the former president. Now he's running for president again. These are very uncharted waters, et cetera. But on a big picture, look at this, it, it just seems outrageous. Well, it is outrageous that Americans could be voting for president not knowing whether he told, not bleeding. Some of them may not, that he tried to overthrow the government. He's trying to run. I mean, it's kind of like. How did you feel when James Comey did what he did in October to Hillary Clinton? I get, it bothered me because he re-opened it like how many days before the election was that? It was, it was very soon before he, that he reopened it. But that, that's not the same. That's not the same. I don't think. I think there's a bigger picture. It's like Merrick Garland not acting quickly enough here on matters that really count for the president to be a law breaker. I think it's a different deal. Hope you're right. Well, I still, look, I still think, you know, when you're angry about this, the name you've got a mutter is Mitch McConnell. That's a very good point. Yeah. Look, our founders knew it was going to be awfully difficult to put presidents through the normal legal process, right? They knew it then. And the whole point was that you thought you'd have a responsible, you know, legislative branch that would, that would do what would be necessary. And he choked. Right? And to me, it's always going to be his legacy. He choked. So, Chuck, let's stay in the courts for a minute. Biggest lead national story is the indictment of New York City's mayor. And he's holding a press conference as we speak, saying, reserve your judgment until after you've heard my defense, I learned in the New York Times a few minutes ago, there's no recall provision, I guess, in New York City's charter or whatever it is. But the governor has the power to remove him, should Kathy Hochl, should she choose. And I assume the only circumstance in which you do that is if Democrats conclude that having the mayor of the biggest city in the country under indictment, which I assume will be used by Donald Trump in some way, presents a drag on Kamala Harris, does it? I don't think it does. I was just discussing this with somebody earlier. I really don't think it does, because he's not, he's not a national figure in the way we've seen previous New York City mayors be national figures. Yeah, it's true. That's one, two, the right-wing mythology machine is already amped up on this idea that Adams is just being picked on because he's too tough on migrants, which of course is just bizarre conspiracy theory. But the point is, I don't know if Trump's going to use Adams negatively. He may wrap his arms around Adams. That's a very good point. Like, I wouldn't assume anything because some of his allies are already like somehow saying this is Biden's Justice Department targeting Adams over his handling of migrants. You're like, "Wow, okay. I have to say this about Adams. I really thought I can't believe he was this brazen at what it appears that he's in, which is just basically run the city the way the machines, the Tamani Hall, was run. You know, you put your friends everywhere, and you're like, "Wow, I just didn't think anybody thought they could get away with it. I've got to think the feds are sitting there going, 'Really? He's really doing this?'" Like, I think the only reason the indictment took the law is that there's disbelief that somebody would still try this. By the way, I should have said, I'm sorry, dinner, I should say, it's bribery fraud soliciting illegal foreign campaign donations and that sort of stuff. You know, one of the most interesting things to me, which- Not to mention the other thing they didn't charge them with, but it is what Chuck talked about putting his buddies and cronies in all these very powerful positions. A lot of them were in trouble themselves. You know, almost every time Trump does something outrageous, which is every moment he's awake, I say, "Can anybody else get away with this?" And this is going to be, to me, an interesting object lesson of, "Can anybody else be indicted?" Of course, he's been indicted and convicted and escaped because it's generally, it's a death knell, but Trump obviously so far has proven it is not. Do you think it is for him, for Adams? Well, yeah, I do. I do. I don't think he- That doesn't mean he gets convicted. Look, these cases are awfully tough to prosecute, but is he going to be able to be vindicated and run for mayor again? I don't think so. I don't think so. I mean, if you told me he could win a city council seat, okay, or something like that, but I don't know. And by the way, I think it's funny that Andrew Cuomo thinks that New York City voters are going to invite him. Wow. As he hasn't formally said he's running, right, he said he's contemplating, right? Yeah. Yeah, right. Look, he actually ran for, his dad ran for mayor in the '70s, and he ran the race, and he ran a race against Ed Koch. That's one of the most hateful and disgusting phrases ever somebody ever came up with at the time. It was a word that he used that rhymed with Cuomo, and that supposedly came from him. Wow. Yeah. That was the Cuomo campaign of '77, I want to say. And then, of course, Cuomo beat Koch in a primary for governor. Right, of course. But they had a legendary New York Democratic rivalry there. But I will say this as a viewer, pop the popcorn, man. Give me some. Give me some. That'll be great. Yeah. Yeah. So your station, MSNBC, had an interview with Kamala Harris last night. She's taken some grief for not being willing to sit down for long-form interviews as well. I think at least 45 minutes long interview. Do you think she solved her problem about specifics or not? If you're looking for specifics, I don't think you found them. Yeah. That's what you're looking for. I understand the strategy that Harris folks are running on that front. I think they're being too risk averse here. I think they're being too cautious, and I think they're going to-- they may get away with it. Biden did. But they're rerunning Biden's 2020 campaign. They're being very careful, very limited. I think she'd be better off having a little bit of a-- let's see her in an-- not an antagonistic setting, but at least not in a friendly setting. I'm with you. Right? Well, you know it. I'd like to see-- because I want to see how somebody thinks, and look, that isn't what you got last night. You got a nice conversation between people that want to like each other, right? But it wasn't-- I didn't think it was probing, right? I don't know if we got in that sense, and I don't think it was designed to be that way. You know, Chuck, somebody wrote a piece. I think it was The New York Times a week or two ago talking about how politicians never answer any questions anymore. Jim and I have experienced this. Local level, you're seeing this writ large with Kamala Harris, and I think the idea that voters don't notice how she didn't answer a lot of straight questions in the debate, either. It's like, why not? Why not explain how your ideas have evolved on fracking? And it's okay to explain it, I think, and to say, you thought one thing, men, of whatever reason you think, one thing now, they just dance around it, and it's so blatant. I don't see how they-- There's this weird fear, Marjorie, I think, that somehow all these politicians have decided they cannot ever look like they were wrong. Right? There's this fear that they're-- and you're like, I don't get it. Like, it takes a border. Right. For the lyser of me, do not understand why she can't say the following, but we had a hard time getting our arms around this at first, but we've got it now. But it's not going to hold until we get Congress to do, but I'll tell you know, like, it is okay to get-- hey, we didn't get it right at first, but now we got it right. But how about in-- how about on the economy and inflation? Yes. Look, we had two choices. If you don't throw enough money at the problem, you cause a recession, and then people are going to have jobs, which, you know, there was sort of only two directions to go here, and we did it and, you know, we're working hard here, but it was better to have that because we weren't going to do it what happened in 2008, where we didn't throw enough money at the problem. And I know-- Great answer, Chuck. Et cetera, et cetera, but I just don't get this running away when you can just be straightforward and logical by the way, and you get to acknowledge the concern and to say-- and we're now on the right side of this solution. Well, you know, I have to say, we criticized that we're not alone in this. The first question in the debate, after which she totally crushed Trump when she didn't answer directly, the question about whether we're better off than we were four years ago-- I thought last night, admittedly, I heard it when I was falling asleep, a rerun. It was better. She did say, she acknowledged, or some people who have not benefited from the economy that has improved, which I think is at least cracks it open a little. And speaking of the border, which Marjorie or you or somebody mentioned a minute ago, she's finally going, was it tomorrow, the next day, whatever, does a physical appearance matter? And obviously, she's going to say we had a solution, the toughest solution in the mall. I'm supported again when I'm president, Donald Trump, killed her, et cetera. Does physically showing up get points, get your points? I think it only gets her points, if she says something somewhat definitive about what her policy is going to be. And I just think it's a simple thing she has to say, it's all she has to say, goes down there to the border and says, look, you know, I am-- I hope the first major pizza legislation I signed is that border security deal that we negotiated that Donald Trump killed. But until that bill comes to my desk, I'm going to re-sign the executive orders. I'm going to make sure the executive orders we've been using to temporarily, you know, keep this flow down that are going to stay in place until Congress gets this bill to my desk, right? Something definitive. She needs to virtue signal to these independent voters that, hey, look, I know you're not sure where I am on this issue, but I promise you I'm not changing the policy, right? But she needs to proactively say she's not changing the policy rather than passively let reporters explain, well, they say they're not going to change the policy. I think she needs to lean into this. If you want to make the appearance matter, that's my thought. Talk about Chuck Todd from NBC News. You know, Chuck Todd, last night, that even Fox News had enough of one of Trump's rallies. He was-- I don't even know where he was. He was in Pennsylvania or someplace else, but he's given this big riff about furniture making how he used to make furniture. It would last for like 60 years. Now you make furniture and the chair falls apart in a month at a hotel, I guess he's gotten some bad chairs at some of his hotels and he was going on and on about the comparisons and who made the best furniture. They finally said, okay, we're going back to the news at that point. Juliet Kayam, who's our Democrat, my friend for Governor here, National Security Expert, she was saying yesterday that we should all be tuning in to Truth Social, so we should all should be reading Truth Social so we can see his craziness there and following some of these rallies where we can see his craziness there. Is that what we should be doing to settle this election? I look, you know, I've been in that place for a long time. I think the mistake we've made is trying to de-platform that. Yeah. Trying to protect the public from him. I mean, when you make people be exposed to Trump, they don't want to have to deal with that. I didn't see the tweet or I didn't see that, you know, you know, look at this. Listen to this, really, right, and I, you know, I somehow, the news media got bullied into this idea that, oh, you can't platform on this and you're like, that isn't going to solve the problem. Sunshine is the only thing that gets rid of cockroaches. Yeah. I just thought I'd bring it back full circle, but it's when you just turn on the light. Beautiful. The cockroaches scatter. Okay? You know, speaking of, by the way, we do need better chairs, but speaking of cockroaches in Miami on a serious note to end this. The big problem. We know, I assume everybody knows you were a Miami kid and when you grow up, they have the dolphins. They're rooted for Green Bay. I can't remember if you ever switch to the dolphins, but whether you did or never did. You never did. I never did. One of the many obsessions I have of late is the fact that the quarterback for the dolphins to it, and I can't pronounce his last name. I don't mean to be disrespectful. Nailova. Thank you. Well, one of us can't either. Okay. Fine. Is he is likely to come back to play and the NFL, I don't know if they have any power, is a okay with that. What's your reaction on a guy who's young kid, young guy, had four concussions and is just gonna go back and play football and the NFL is apparently perfectly fine with it. So I've struggled with this myself and I hear you, okay, but put yourself in his shoes. This is all, you know, and then you're told, you can't do this anymore. Something that you have $50 million a year, you're getting paid to do this. And then you're told you can't do it anymore. You shouldn't do it anymore. Honestly, it is up to him, right, he is free will on this. And we have no idea if he's gonna live a life of depression and regret, right, if he doesn't do it. So I don't, this is where I struggle, I, well, no, no, this is in your best interest, right? We all pretty sure of this and I'd love to have Brett Favre talk with him and we just saw the news of Tommy Cramer, a quarterback for the Minnesota Viking, you know, you Tony Dorsett, like, I would, I would be having those people have conversations with him. But ultimately, how do you tell, he's sitting there going, I got 200 million reasons to keep playing and, you know, then I'll have the money to fix it. Like that could be the way he's thinking that, again, I'm not, I'm, you know, I think the NFL has done safety better, right? It was, they went from zero to better, right? It still could be, they don't really care about it or they wouldn't have Thursday games. I mean, the fact that they have Thursday games after Monday game, they don't care about player safety, hard stop, but they do, they have gotten better at least about diagnosis. So that's where I'm struggling is that I, I agree, but at the end of the day, if he wants to play, are you going to be the one to tell him he can't run to? Well, first of all, you get a hundred anyway, but, but, but putting that aside for saying, I know he has no responsibility to anybody himself, but the, this league, the most profitable sports league is dependent upon generation after generation loving it. And I worry about, you know, two as a grown up and whatever he does, he does, but I worry about the kid watching who plays football, who the lesson I would take away as a kid is even if I got a concussion and I did have a headache when I played pee-wee last week after I got hit or tackled, that it's perfectly fine to just, you know, tough it out and go back and back. And again, I know he has no formal responsibility, but what you'd think the league has feels some responsibility if they don't to the player, they do to the aging, the young, but aging fan. Do you know what I mean? Look, and this is something that they, you know, if you're going to put in there, hey, fourth concussion, we're not going to, you know, we're not going to ensure your ability to play the game. So, I mean, you could do something like that where the league doesn't want to be liable after four, four concussions, but you would have to probably negotiate that in some sort of collective bargaining. But I, look, here's the good news. Have you noticed that there are some players who are wearing the special protector helmet and it looks a little, it looks slightly different? There's one guy in the Patriots, yeah. There's a guy in almost every team I've noticed. You know, when you look around, there's at least one, that's a good thing, right? I mean, there's more awareness and if you have at least players willing to do it in the NFL, that should encourage younger players to want to wear the special helmet too. You know, so I, you know, I guess I'm hopeful technology is going to do this and, look, I actually think we're probably, I think in our lifetimes, the tackling part will be almost eliminated from football. Do you think so? Wow. We love offense, listen, think about the NFL. Every change they've made that's been about safety has ended up increasing scoring and increasing offense. So it's been a win-win for them. Like, look at the, across the middle, getting rid of those hard hits across the middle. You now can pass across the middle. Guys like to re-kill these little guys, Julian Edelman, all those guys never would have been able to play football in the 80s, 70s or 60s. Yeah, they've taken one hit down the middle and that's it. So, but it's increased offense and fans love offense. So if they can make it safer and increase scoring, I think that's, that may be where we're headed. Chuck Dodd, I hope you're right. Thanks and thanks for bringing up the flying cockroaches. I really appreciate it. Flying cockroach is a flying cockroach. Something you're going to bring around. Always talk around. It's something to look forward to. It is. It is. It is. It is. Yeah. Thank you. Goodbye. See you soon. We have been speaking with Chuck Dodd. I'm looking at pictures of them right now, by the way. They are really fast. Yeah. Don't, don't look at pictures of flying cockroaches, especially before lunchtime. Chuck Dodd is the chief political analyst for NBC News and host of the Chuck Toddcast, which is a great political podcast, a bit, a podcast, I should say, available everywhere you get your podcasts. Welcome back to Boston, public radio, Jim Brady, and Marjorie, again, we're live at the Library tomorrow. Reminder our text question today. We always get to that right before the one o'clock news. You text us, your response at 877-301-8970. The enormous allegedly flying Jorro spider is descended on Beacon Hill. Come up from the south. We want to get your reaction, your pro spider overlords or anti-arachnid. And are you freaking out like one of us is? Because in any case, that's 877-301-8970 results from last year's MCAS exams were made public this week and the results are abysmal. Students showed little improvement in the English and math standardized tests and the most recent results showed they're doing worse than they were pre-pandemic. A couple of more stats. The number of students meeting or exceeding grade level expectations for an English across grades 3-8 remain 13 percentage points lower than in 2019 in math. Test scores were 8 percent lower during the same period. Historically, Massachusetts has been a state that has prided itself on our public schools, supposedly leading the nation. We are number one, but as reading and math scores continue to sync, are you as a parent or student reassessing things or have you already? Wallister, Texas at 877-301-8970, are you a parent with thoughts on how your kids are doing and if there's a way for them to catch up from pandemic or learning losses or do you recently graduate and want to share your thoughts? And equally importantly, there's a ballot question that is related to this. Question two, which would, if you were to vote yes, would repeal MCAS. Get rid of it, not as a test, but as a graduation requirement, does this report on the state of our schools have any effect on how you're going to vote on question two, 877-301-8970? I know what your reaction was, but share it, Marjorie. Well, I just want to, well, I think that we need to revolutionize the schools a big way. I don't think this public schools are working anymore, particularly in low-income towns. They should be running all day long until six o'clock at night. But in any case, one of the things I think is most disturbing in Massachusetts is that nearly half of schools in Massachusetts are teaching their kids low-quality reading. They're still using this low-quality reading program, which means that nearly, I think it's 40% of kids in third grade in Massachusetts can't read the way they should, and they're not changing it. I mean, some of them have changed, but a lot of them have not. Half of the schools haven't changed, so I'd like to know a couple of things from parents out there, or kids that are old enough to know what's going on in their own schools. One of the things we're supposed to do post-pandemic is have really intensive tutoring for kids that fell behind. I think you might have gotten real intensive tutoring if you had enough money to pay for it privately. I'm not sure from what I've read that it's been across the board, particularly for the kids that most needed, whose parents can't afford, you know, $150 an hour. That's what I'd like to know, and do you even know if your school system is teaching the right reading method or not? 877-301-8970, and we should have mentioned that this achievement gap between white kids in the public schools and kids of color in the public schools continues to widen. I remember a couple of decades ago having this discussion fairly regularly with Governor Devolve Patrick on our studio. It's one of the thorniest and most important issues, and it appears it's not going away. So what's your reaction to these numbers, particularly, and by the way, you don't need to have a kid in the public school, but if you have young kids and they're thinking of going to public school or you're thinking, "Is that in there fine?" If you just have a reflection on that, since it's one of the things Massachusetts is proud of stuff, is how good our school zone, only 42% of kids in these tests met expectations, which is just absolutely horrifying, and you say to yourself, "It's not just a test. What impact is this going to have?" We had the pandemic, and then you have these post-pandemic tests, which are measuring in some fashion, their proficiency or lack of proficiency. This kid's whole life is going to be affected by what has happened or not happened the last five or six years. I mean, I just say something about the graduation requirement with the MCAS before you take the calls. The reason it drives me so crazy is that there's no substitute. This is going to be in the bout in the fall, and there's no alternative to how you're going to be able to tell if kids read and do math and basic schoolwork well enough to graduate. If you don't pass the MCAS in 10th grade, you get to take it over and over again. I think it's up to three times, or maybe even four times. You make it four times, so you get help to pass it. The reason I'm so upset about this, and it's probably going to win, because these things always seem to win, is that if you graduate from high school, unable to read and write and do math well enough to function in the world, what does that mean for your life? Are you going to go to something? Well, that's a little unfair, Margarita. The people who put this thing on the ballot, and it's supported by a majority of the people, don't want kids to leave high school unprepared in math and reading. That's a fair question to ask them. So what's their substitute? And by the way, on that note, the week of October 14th, every day that week, we will have a debate between the both sides of all five ballot questions, and obviously one of them will be the graduation requirement, but you should weigh in on it. If you feel like Margarita, you disagree with her, particularly using these latest stats out the last couple of days as ammunition for either side, give us about 877-301-8970. The one thing everybody can agree on is they're both shocking and painfully disappointing post-pandemic, 877-301-8970. Oh, let's go to Daniel and sorry, I go, hi, Daniel. Hey, Daniel. Yeah, I just, I don't know, something Margarita had kind of bothered me about wanting to have kids all in school all day. I think that doesn't really help for learning. You sort of wear them down and grind them down, and I think they need to be a more holistic approach. What does that mean more holistic? I mean, like have more teachers in the school, make sure the kids have food in their stomach so they can focus. If you're going to do summer stuff, like make it fun, there's more to license test scores also. Well, the reason I say that, Daniel, is because you see these miracles in schools like Nativity Prep, which is a Catholic school, but it takes inner city kids, and they are in school from seven o'clock in the morning at six o'clock at night. They have, they're not just doing schoolwork all day, they have sports, but they can help with their homework and help with their schoolwork. And I know people in Massachusetts voted down charter schools two to one, but again, the best charter schools is the same thing. Kids get help with their work afterwards, and the reason I go so crazy is because most parents have to work now. They're not home. It's not like when mom was home to help kids in the afternoon, the world has changed. I think the schools are kind of stuck in the 19th century in terms of the way the world is now, and that's why I think, particularly in poor towns, you know, it's not a good idea to get out of school and have school in at 1.30. Daniel, let me just say one last thing, directly to your comment at Margry, I totally agree with her, but the place where I sort of agree with you is if you're going to keep them there longer and you don't want them kept, obviously, you don't want to bore the kids into submission. The goal is to provide the learning in such a fashion that kids are engaged, whether it's during normal hours or extended hours, so I'm with her, I'd like to see kids in school. All day too, Daniel, thank you very much for the call, 877-301-8970, and by the way, I think it's October 16th, is it that the Secretary of Education, we've never had him on the show before, Todd Weiler will be joining us at the library, I'll confirm that date in a second. By the way, no one's one of the really upsetting things about these latest bit of information. Mississippi, one of the poorest states in the nation, their school kids are recovering faster from the pandemic than kids in Massachusetts, one of the richest states in the nation. That's really odd. And we've spent hundreds of millions of dollars on federal money to recover from educational leaders and other ways to recover from COVID, and there's a quote from a woman we've had on, was that Emily Oster from Brown, who says, well, it could have been worse were not for the federal money. Well, even if she's right, it's still a horrible outcome, even if it would have been worse without spending. And again, I'd be interested in hearing from parents whether their kids got that intensive kind of tutoring that everybody was saying was one of the best remedies for the gap during the pandemic. Jane from Millis, thank you for calling. Hello, Jane. Hi, I am big fan listening all the time. Thank you. My background is in education, I actually was involved in teacher prep for over 20 years, and now do consulting in many schools and I have some theories of what I've observed over time. So I personally am against MCAS, not as a graduation requirement. However, there's things that have changed in the last 10 years, and I've definitely seen this up close and personal. Number one, we've had since the pandemic, a huge issue, literally with attendance. Yeah. So, you know, if children are not in school, I don't care how innovative, hardworking, you can't get the information to the kids, which will have an impact on MCAS results. Number two, behavior issues in schools have definitely been an uptick. So I've seen teachers, I mean, I've been in 50 schools across the state. And there are many more challenging behaviors that are occurring in the classroom, which also causes a big disruption in the academic climate of the classroom. So I think we have, you know, as a complex problem, and just having one test is just not enough. You know, I'm a big believer in project-based learning, and giving teachers some individual freedom. I know in my little town of Millis, a number of years ago, we had a number of fabulous teachers in this town. But there was one teacher that her pride and joy is teaching a whole unit on the history of Millis. And she was unbelievable how she got kids excited, and they went to great stones, rubbings, et cetera. Well, that had to all go when MCAS came in. Jane, can I interrupt you for a second? Because I agree with about 90% of what you said, but I'm going to channel Marjorie vis-a-vis what you just said about that special program in your school. The issue, to me, is not whether in individual systems, teachers do what needs to be done for their kids. How do you compare the ability of that Millis kid with the ability of a kid in a neighboring jurisdiction where the teacher also thinks he or she is doing fine? But it turns out, we might learn that nowhere close to the level that the Millis kid is. How do you compare district to district without this MCAS graduation requirement? Which by the way, I do not favor, but that's a huge question. How about it? Well, I absolutely, I think you have an excellent point. I'm not forgetting rid of it altogether, but I have an issue with just using that as a litmus. I see. What else can we do? What else can we do? I'm also on the school committee for a regional vocational high school. So I'm seeing kids doing career work, and if they only had to be measured by their ability to say write an essay, which is important, no matter what you do in life, I agree. However, it's only one aspect of a child learning ability, and I will tell you this. Have you used the quadratic equation in your current life? I may have when I was a kid. Jane, here's the thing I always, if I, I mean, I don't understand why people can't seem to fix the text, the test. I mean, you hear all these, I mean, I don't, you need to know quadratic equations, but I think you know, you need to know how to read well enough and write well enough and do basic math to function in life. And that's what this test should be measuring. And what I'm really afraid of is that in poor towns, kids are going to be graduating without those abilities. And if you have, can take the test multiple times to get past it, you're going to learn a lot more than you would if you just didn't get those chances to repeat well in all fairness, a lot of people think that's not true that if you teach the test, you learn how to take the test. You don't learn a lot more that is of value to you as a human out in the world, but that's the debate. Jane, thanks for the call. We really appreciate. You know, we have all these brilliant people working in education. Everybody complains about the test. And again, I don't know why we have to take someone long to take it. Your kids are going to bring them extra snacks and it goes on for days and days. Make it so it's a more succinct test, not measuring quadratic equations, but mentioning functioning in the real world. I'm sorry I brought up question two because we're getting off track a little bit here. We want to know what your reaction is to these horrible test results that were released a couple of days ago. Your numbers eight, seven, seven, three, zero, one, eighty nine, seven, and by the way, the debate on our show on question two will happen on Wednesday, October 16th. Yep. You're listening to Boston Public Radio, eighty nine, seven GBH, we'll be right back. Welcome back to Boston Public Radio. Jim Brownie and Marj Regan were live at the library tomorrow. Reminder about our text question of the day, you text in, we get to some of them right before the one o'clock news. The enormous flying, apparently flying, Jorroz Spider is descended on Beacon Hill. We want to know your reaction, fear, fascination, apathy, Texas, eight, seven, seven, three, zero, one, eighty nine, seven, if you're just joining us for talking about the latest batch of disastrous MCAS scores, the numbers eight, seven, seven, three, zero, one, eighty nine, seven, what's your reaction? Is it affecting your decision around where your kids go to school? Marj Regan, do you have some texts you're looking at? Somebody wants to know how Florida has the number one ranked school system this year. I'm not sure it's a number one ranked, I don't know, it's number one ranked, but it's better than this. You know, Florida did not close for as long as a lot of other schools did, and that's one of the things that they say, you know, we always get this about charter schools don't take any special needs students, they do, that's not true. And other ones are just kind of, I have nothing good to read, Jim. Go ahead. Okay, let's go to Elaine and Sabriel, how are you? I'm good, how are you? Excellent, thanks. I have several points with the question at hand. The first one I'm going to start off with is that I'm not surprised that the MCAS tests are going down, I think I'm going to bring it to the main issue, which is the funding that school districts have to respond to the needs. I think first and foremost, we have an educational system that has not changed since it was originally designed. Students are still going to school for a six hour day for a nine month year. We agree with that. And what we're looking for educationally to happen is much more extensive than what that is. In order to change that, we need to redesign what we're looking to educate students on, which starts with how we're preparing teachers to teach. But to make changes within a school district, we have to, again, make monetary changes. There are 211 districts in our state that are in hold harmless, which is in relation to their chapter 70 funding, so we have districts that are struggling. So looking to change the reading curriculum, which is not designed, it's not an evidence based the majority of what districts have been using, and this has been a long no issue when we've tried to legislatively change it by making districts responsible for screening students for dyslexia at a very young age. But we don't have the appropriate reading curriculum. Who's we, by the way, Elaine, you obviously know a lot about this, who is we? In relation to making changes, legislatively, the chapter 70 funding, we were having these conversations when I was a school committee member back in 2015, 2016, and how the funding formula was changed, regional school districts are at a complete disadvantage regarding funding. We don't have the appropriate. I know the district that I was in, we could never afford to buy a new curriculum when you have these funding mechanisms that come in through the different challenges that we had that districts were given a block of money, districts might be able to use that to buy a curriculum. But if you buy a new curriculum, you need to be able to train teachers, to be able to train teachers, you might be going outside of contract. When you make contract changes, you need to have more money. All of it is a vicious cycle of needing to make necessary changes, but you need to look at it globally. Well, you know, you talk on something Elaine, these unfunded mandates that people in school committees are to deal with for years. I mean, it does make sense that if the state is going to make a rule and so you have to have the evidence-based reading because kids aren't learning to read, then the state should fund it. I mean, you're right, because you do have to go back and you hear this all the time about whether it's, you know, that's how it got a chapter of 766, right? Years ago, people sued because there was such uneven treatment of kids with special needs. So you're right. And so the same thing with charter schools, when a kid leaves a regular school to go to wait, even if it's a public charter school, that school will lose money. And I think it's, the state should be stepping up a lot more if you ask me. Remember the state used to fund-- Elaine, thanks for the call. The state used to fund huge parts of UMass. You know, if you wanted to go to UMass, whether in-- That was a long time ago. The funding for a higher ed-- But I mean, isn't that a good idea to state step in? By the way, while at Hub, I don't even know what it is, the recent ranking of schools put Florida 11th Massachusetts first. But according to U.S. News and World Report, for the second year in a row, Florida is the top state for education in the United States. The placement is largely fueled by several stellar metrics in higher ed, unless so by Florida's still fairly strong performance in the pre-kindergarten through 12th grade arena. But remember, though, I mean, DeSantis took a lot of grief over at the time in the midst of the pandemic, but he was one of those people that kept the schools open. And you know, we didn't do that here at the time. It seemed like the right thing, because people were worried about contagion, but obviously it took a real toll. Heather in North Andover, you're on Boston Public Radio, the margarine and medium broutie. Welcome. Hi. Hi. Thanks for having me. Sure. I agree a lot with your last two collars who are making the right points that this is a very complicated system. What I will add to what they're saying is that I am a teacher preparation, I work in teacher preparation at the college level, particularly around reading issues. And I will say that it's coming down the pike. We just this semester have to observe teacher candidates who are out in the field teaching an entire literacy block, which includes those foundational skills, which includes systematic explicit instruction, which includes complex text, which I think is what margarine is getting to. The phonics part. Right. Right. Yeah. Well, the phonics is the foundational skills part. Yep. The complex text is reading like grade level, more complicated, good vocabulary, you know, building students, students' content knowledge and vocabularies, which is a good thing. So that's coming, but that's coming now and the state has a really big push towards that if you look on their mass literacy website. It's coming, but teaching has become so complicated. And what I'm afraid of is that we're going to have less and less people wanting to become teachers. You're already seeing major teacher shortages in many districts. So we need to find ways to support our educational system so that students get what they need and teachers are supported with the PD they need, the time they need, the resources they need. Heather, thank you for your call. These have been fabulous calls and interesting, but we haven't had one parent call about the underlying question about how they feel about these horrifying results. So we have my apologies. Next person, Brittany from Andover. You are that parent. Hello there, Brittany. Thanks for calling. Well, hello. Hi. I am that parent. We're glad you're there. I have a daughter who's in -- I have a daughter who's in second grade and we are only a month into school and we are already struggling with reading and other issues that were prevalent all last year and they were seeing them come back. And what we have noticed is that unless your children are like at the bottom, it's very hard to get the help that you need. And in our school district and in our school in particular, we have amazing educators and they are absolutely wonderful but our class sizes are huge. They are eliminating teachers at our school and it's so difficult for the teachers and I've heard it from them first hand is that when you have this many children and you have such a span of learning abilities, it can be difficult to work with them and get each child that individual attention that they need and we're seeing that with our daughter. So we're trying to work with the school and figure out how to help her because they say kindergarten through second grade, you're learning to read but third grade on, you are reading to learn and it is so important that we get those foundational skills with our children and test scores, I understand they're important but I feel like we need to be looking at the individual children and we need to be having smaller class sizes and retaining our teachers, our educators are wonderful but when they are stretched thin, it makes it harder for them and they are getting pressure from the administration to keep the test scores up and I think that it's this cycle that needs to be reevaluated so that our children are getting the proper help that they need, whether they're at the bottom or even if they're at the top, we've had children that I've known that are very, very smart and they've been excelling but they need extra attention and help in different ways and so I think just kind of finding a way to understand the test scores and know that they are important but also look at our children as individuals and sometimes just forget about the test scores a little bit and figure out the best way to help them learn because these are such foundational years and... That was a terrific call, we are really glad you called, really glad you called, thanks so much, good luck with your kid. Of course I'm a proponent from Merritt Pay for Teachers, the best teachers of whatever million dollars. Okay fine, everybody knows who the best teachers are, they just get a top dollar. One more in or we don't have time? No, we don't have time. We don't have time. No we don't. Yes we do. Thomas and Brooklyn, you have literally 40 seconds, our apologies go. Yeah, sorry. Hey, hey, thank you, how are you doing, thanks, good, thank you, thank you so I'm a teacher in Brooklyn and I've started as a para now, I'm a health teacher but you know, my main issue is with the school, with the MCAS, I'm also a parent and I don't agree with the MCAS especially at an early age like that but with the previous two callers that said the teachers, the parents, the school districts, they do need more funding to get the job done to educate these kids. You know, the parents are really the heart of the education, they support a lot of our special education students that were so overwhelmed with so I feel like, you know, the main source of it is the funding of the schools, whether it's charter or whether it's public. Hey Thomas, you must have noticed we built, we're building two Taj Mahal schools in Boston, one of them is right down the street from me. Brooklyn, Brooklyn, I believe. In Brooklyn, yeah, that's what he says. Thomas, we're sorry we got to cut you off, we're out of time but thank you, call us again please and thanks for doing the teaching thing. Coming up after the new news, we're going to talk with something County Sheriff and former Secretary of Public Safety, Andrew Corporal, wait a year, this one, an eight year old kid gets in her mother's car, drives 20 minutes down the highway, sweeping all over the road because she wanted to go shopping at Tarjay, otherwise known as Target, and uh... And the problem is what? She'll go shopping. I went, couldn't see. Who is that behind the wheel? They couldn't see her over the wheel. I'm going to talk about that and a bunch of other stuff, you're listening to Boston Public Radio 897, GBH, Andrew Corporal is next. I'm Jim Brody, head on hour two, Boston Public Radio. New York City Mayor Eric Adams has been indicted on federal criminal charges and as much of his inner circle also faces federal investigations from the schools to the police department. We'll talk about the effect of a reform as this is set in the public safety, Andrew Cabral, plus the case of an eight year old girl in Ohio who took her mother's car and drove the Target for a little shopping spree. And Major Egan, the legendary grumpy comedian Louis Black, is in time for two shows at the Wilbur this weekend he zooms in to tell us all about his final comedy tour, goodbye yellow brick road, then our text prompt of the day, have you spotted the bright yellow Jorro spider on Beacon Hill, are you pro spider overlords or anti-arachnid and do you think they're exactly what we need to scare Beacon Hill legislators into doing something all that ahead, Boston Public Radio 897, GBH. At a home on Mount Vernon Street in Beacon Hill near the common recently, officials say the sighting and the photos depict the most northern sighting of the spider yet. Jorro watch says the spiders are not dangerous to humans, however anyone who spots one is urged to report the sighting to jorrowatch.org. Hi, it's Jim Brownie, I am Marjorie Egan, welcome to our number two of Boston Public Radio. We're going to be live at the Boston Public Library tomorrow. Live Music Friday this week comes courtesy of the Berkeley Music Inclusion Ensemble and singer-songwriter and NPR Tiny Desk Contest winner Galen Lee, we're very excited about that. The text question of the day is about, you just heard Henry talking about this enormous flying Jorro spider that has descended on Beacon Hill, three and a half inches long around. Have you seen one? Are you pro spider or anti-arachnid and do you think they're exactly what we need to scare Beacon Hill legislators into doing something, anything, Texas, Jorro replies at 877-301-8970. Hello again, Jim. Hello again, Marjorie. Here now in Zoom as former Suffolk County Sheriff, former Massachusetts Secretary of Public Safety, Andrew Cabral, she joins us weekly. Hello, Andrea. Hello, Marjorie. Hello, Jim. Hello. Hello, Andrew Cabral. Great to talk to you. So we've been hearing for quite some time, if you follow the news in New York about accusations about Mayor Adams installing friends and cronies in different positions around town. Now he's been indicted on accepting bribes and other charges. What do you make of it? Do you think this has any impact, Jim has just checked out before in the presidential race because he's the mayor of the biggest city of New York and he's a big Democrat? What do you think? I remember when he ran for mayor and I remembered that Maya Wiley was fabulous. Yes. Fabulous. She's a very, very well known attorney. I think she has a history in the US Attorney's Office. She's a civil rights attorney. She's an activist. She actually was either a sitting member of the board. She might have been the chair at one point of New York City's Civilian Review Board, which sort of takes a look at police, specific police cases or allegations of police misconduct. And she came very, very close to winning that race and I just thought, you know, when this was announced, I thought, well, New York City could have had Maya Wiley. But Eric Adams came up through the political system. I mean, he was, you know, at first he was a police captain, which has certainly has political elements to it. But he was a state senator and I think he ran several times for that and won successively and then he was a borough president, which, you know, from there he seemed to have launched the bid for, so he, you know, to be mayor, he was always an insider. And the impression I've always had of him, and this is purely just my impression, was that I would never be surprised if something like this happened. Just based on, you know, and it wasn't like I said on top of everything that went on in his office, but what I would read on occasion in his office, and this really does, it's an extraordinary step in what has been a completely upending and unsettling past several months with it. There's just been rate after rate after rate, subpoena after subpoena, seizure after seizure of electronic devices and other things from people's homes and other places over which they've had control by the FBI, you know, on behalf of the DOJ investigation. And what's interesting about this is, often you will see indictments of underlings before you'll see the indictment of the person. Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. His underlings have certainly been the target of subpoenas and warrants and raids, as I said, but they started, they're starting this with the five count indictment, a public corruption indictment against him. That is not to say that others who work under him will not be at some point indicted, but what it does tell you is that they got sufficient cooperation from the people who work under him to be able to put this indictment together and release it first, and that is significant to me. You know, by the way, I'm watching, as you're speaking, CNN is carrying live, the appeals court hearing, the appeal by Trump of the $454 million judgment in the fraud case, once again, on television, which is a plus, which leads me back to the exact same thing. I asked Chuck, I always, I wonder almost everything that Donald Trump does that breaks yet another norm that decent people observe if anybody can be Donald Trump, other than Donald Trump. Can Eric Adams be an indictee and he's running for reelection next year as of the moment and get reelected as mayor of the city of New York? No, I don't think, I don't think he will run again. I think he's doing, you know, what most public officials do when they are indicted, you know, sort of the menendez take, I'm not going anywhere. This is all based on lies, I'm completely innocent. I don't know why if all of that is true, I mean, he certainly has the absolute right to not incriminate himself, but you're going to say that the entire thing is alive, but you have to look forward to the day when you can be more specific about how and why it's a lie. The truth isn't going to change between now and then you could say it today. But this is the usual case, you get out front and you say, no, no, no, no, no. I think Kathy Hochl is the governor, New York's charter, give her the power to remove. It does, sitting elected officials. I think she'll look at that very carefully and very closely. It's only been done, I think, one time before long ago. We have a clip of Eric Adams himself, basically calling everything a lie. So to get in the mood here while we wrap up this discussion with him here is the mayor of New York City, Eric Adams, last night, my fellow New Yorkers, it is now my belief that the federal government intends to charge me with crimes. If so, these charges will be entirely false based on lies, but they would not be surprising. I always knew that if I stood my ground for all of you, that I would be a target and they taught. That's right. I became. He stood his ground for the people of New York and look what happened. Yeah, this is what this really infuriates me, the whole, you know, taking a page from Trump. Exactly. Exactly. That's exactly what it is. Not for anything that I could have possibly done, even though he has a history of being investigated as a state senator by the DOJ for taking lobbyist money and he has been the subject, although no charges have ever issued before, certainly a suspected of things of crimes related to public corruption throughout his history. This is because he stood up for New Yorkers and even if you weren't going to stay, when you say it's all lies and you look forward to the day when you can be more specific about that. Okay, if you're not going to say, well, I'm specifically charged with this and this is how I know it's a lie, can't you be specific about what you were standing up for the people of New York for that has caused this retaliation? Yeah. What should we say when I, when I went, you know, hammer and tongue on behalf of the people of New York for this, this, this, this, and this, I knew I was going to get push back. And this is how the push back is manifesting itself. He hasn't said a word about that. He has simply taken a page out of Trump's book and that's it's, it's, it's very, it's infuriating because it's just craving and it's cowardly. It's better if you say nothing at all than to do that. Well, he's lucky you're not prosecuted and let's put it that way. So another discussion, another question, which we discussed, but purely in a political context with Chuck Todd. Now we have you there, former prosecutor, former secretary of public safety, Jack Smith's filing this 180 page document today, essentially laying out his case in front of Judge Shuttkin. He's doing this because I think people remember in light of the immunity decision, he had to redraft his indictments, the grand jury did indict on the same four charges, but with a narrower set of facts, because some facts were removed because they would run afoul of the Supreme Court outrageous decision. That's me speaking, not Jack Smith on, on immunity. We discussed with Chuck whether or not, I mean, it's in Chutkin's hands as to whether or not those are released to the public anytime before November 5th. Margie and I both think as an equitable matter, since the voters have had no opportunity to deal with the underlying January 6th stuff or see it dealt with before November 5th, it probably should be released. But I can understand an argument on this one from the Trump people that it is wildly prejudicial to release this so, look at the look on her face. So close to the election. Let me ask a stupid question. Which side are you on, Andrea Cabral? Go ahead. When you stop laughing, you can answer the question. Go ahead. I don't know why you put yourself through this too, I really don't. Every time the contents of a criminal complaint or civil complaint are made public, the person who is the subject of those allegations, it is prejudicial to them, or they can make the argument that it's prejudicial to them. By and large, absent a good reason, these documents are public because the public has a right to know. And the reason I was laughing is because you're usually on the side of the public has the right to know. I am, but I think in this case that the one difference between all those other indictments and you talk about, and this one, this indictee is running for the presidency of the United States. Only, as a measure of protection, every other person would be subjected to where they, the subject of a complaint. That's a fine point. A fine point. And so, and she has made it very, very clear that is not, she is not remotely considering his choice to run for president. She has got a courtroom, she's got a case in front of her, she's dealing with that case. And she's told his lawyers repeatedly raising that carries no weight with me. So his judge, so his judge merch on in a similar note, wrong, where there was a conviction in New York City to postpone sentencing of Donald Trump until afternoon of November 5th, which is exactly what he did. I think it was scheduled for September 18th and he postponed it. I don't think he should have, I don't think he should have postponed sentencing. I think he could have suspended the sentence until after the election. I think just where these are just such uncharted waters. I think, you know, judges are given leeway in terms of their discretion. So keep in mind, Jack Smith had to ask for permission to file the brief with the excessive number of pages. Judge Chutkin is allowing him to do that because clearly, you know, he's now had to revise his entire indictment based on this unfettered immunity decision from Scotus. He will also, in addition to the initial brief will be filed under seal, so no one will see it. Jack Smith is also going to file a redacted version. He knows what is likely, what a judge is likely to, if the judge makes a decision about what should be redacted. He's interested in protecting whatever happens with this case, certainly a conviction in this case. He's going to actually do the work of also filing a redacted brief to save her the trouble of having to go through the redactions and is likely that that will be released to the public. Yes, it will absolutely give the public the glimpse of what is actually the allegations are against Donald Trump that both Donald Trump and the Supreme Court of the United States have been at great pains to keep from them before they have an opportunity to vote. And by the way, the belief is that in that hundred and eighty pages and even in the redacted version, there'd be evidence that has not been seen before by the American people. So yeah, we're talking to Andrew Cabral. You know, Andrea, we talked about this with listeners yesterday involving the death penalty. There's a man, Marcellus Williams, who was convicted of a killing in 1998 of a 42-year-old woman, Leisha Gayle, in her home. She was stabbed to death. But because of irregularities in the handling of evidence and questions, his returnees raised over the jury selection, the prosecutor in the case, plus the widow, the widower of this woman in a newspaper reporter, actually stabbed during a daytime burglary in her home, said that he should not get the death penalty. There were questions about this case unusual to have the prosecutor take that stand. They went to the Supreme Court, they didn't stay at the execution. He was executed. What do you make of this with all we know about, you know, racism in the system, with all we know about poor representation of clients who don't have a lot of money? I mean, the guy was not a nice guy. He had a long record as a criminal, but still, I don't know. I think in the words, you know, Adam Sower, who writes for "The Atlantic," the cruelty is the point. I mean, it is, first of all, it is unusual to have the family of someone who was so brutally murdered say that they felt that life, the sentence should be commuted to life in prison. It is even more unusual to have the actual prosecutor's office join in on that. It is even more unusual to have the attorney general whose frontline prosecutions do not include murders, be the one to object to this, and appeal the decision. And I'm not sure exactly how that happened. Like I'm not sure where the jurisdiction was in that, but it's Missouri, I don't pretend to know, you know, how all those sort of lines of authority work in Missouri. But the governor wouldn't intercede either, and it doesn't surprise me at all. The point was to kill him, and that's what they wanted to have happened. Now it isn't that there is no evidence against him. There is apparently a jacket that he is alleged to have worn from the house to cover up blood stains, a blood stain jacket that a girlfriend said that she saw him wearing. You know, his response to that was that the conviction was based on this girlfriend's testimony and sort of a jailhouse informants testimony. You know, his, the defense response to that is that both of them had felony convictions on their own records, and they were both looking for the $10,000 reward for information that led to the conviction. I certainly think that there is enough. I don't think that there, there was certainly no forensic evidence that matched him at all in the fingerprints, no blood at the scene, there was a shoe print at the scene in blood. It didn't match anything related to him. So I think there was enough, but I think what was desired in this case by people leading government was that he'd be executed and they, and that's exactly what they made sure happened. Can I call her by one thing? Sorry. I should have pointed out black guy, white woman too, and it brings into the, the race question. And you're much more likely to be sentenced to death if you're a black, a defendant and the victim is alleged victim is a white person. I want to clarify something. I think you both touched on, but just to be clear, the prosecutor's office, which also as you both said, sought the death penalty be removed here, was not out of compassion because he's a good prisoner and because he's done wonderful things. They agreed that there had been a racial bias on the part of their predecessors in that office in terms of the striking of one juror, which is arguably unconstitutional, maybe not with Clarence Thomas, but with everybody else. And it's secondly, his defense lawyers had failed to provide exculpatory evidence that was available. Essentially they didn't do their job. So it was on the merits, legal merits, not, not just out of, you know, equity and fairness and that sort of thing. By the way, before we move on to Marjorie's favorite story for you, Zoe, our colleague is actually reading the indictment of Adams and listen to this, she said it's a page right out of Trump's playbook. I'll read it quickly, Adams in those working in his direction falsely certified compliance with applicable campaign finance regulations, despite his repeated acceptance of straw donations from illegal foreign contributors, funneling money through U.S.-based companies, relying on the concealed nature of these illegal contributions to falsely portray as campaigns as law abiding. Here's the key. As a result of those full certifications, Adams 2021 mayoral campaign received more than $10 million in public funds. So he used allegedly the illegally obtained foreign funds that can't contribute to campaigns in this country to reach the threshold that allowed him to get $10 million in public funds to run his campaign for mayor. And he allegedly, that wasn't enough to get the money from Turkey. He sought matching funds from the government, the state of New York, which provides a certain level of matching funds for certain kinds of money that's raised. And he took another $10,000 out of the New York state's coffers. I mean, this is -- >> Raising. >> If there's evidence of his travel, he's flying Turkish airlines the way most people in this country fly Delta. He's flying either heavily discounted or free travel. And a lot of this has to do with building the Turkish consulate and getting the building built quickly but also getting the fire permits, which can be difficult to get depending on how tall the building is and how well it's built, pushing those through. And that's how he first became acquainted with this particular Turkish embassy official. And apparently that was the key to the vault because $10 million is no -- here's the thing I don't get. How did you think you were going to get away with that? How did you think that nobody was going to wonder where that money came from? >> Donald Trump, how did you think you could get away with this? How did you think you could get away with that? How about the other thing? How did you think you could get away with that? What's the answer to that one? Thank you. >> Good point. >> Okay. Margry, get to your favorite story because it is a good one. >> Well, it's just kind of one of those who can believe this thing. An eight-year-old kid who apparently could barely be seen over the dashboard, yeah, the car is drove for more than 20 minutes along these busy highways in Ohio to get to a local Target store where she probably went shopping and apparently had a nice frappuccino and the people on the road are seeing a swivel over the place. What did you make of this one? >> You know, it is kind of funny because you can picture this kid wanting to go to Target to get something and her mother is saying, no, no, no, you're not going to -- we're not buying that or I'm not going there today, are you going to wait until the weekend? And now she went and got the keys that she's been watching her mother drive so closely that she -- she knew how to do it. She didn't just put the car in gear and roll down the driveway because she put it in gear and then it just kind of slowed to a halt. She also knew how to get there. She got there. I think that she'd have the kid tested to see if she's a genius after she gets out of jail for reckless driving. That is a child you really need to keep your eye on until she's well out of your house because that kid is going to do -- this is what this kid is able to do at 8. They've got a lot of interesting stuff in store for them, the parents of this child. >> You notice all the good news stories used to come out of Florida and how they all come out of Ohio. Do you notice? That's the case of life. >> Yeah, Ohio has really given Florence punching way above its weight. He would Florida run for its money. >> She did admit that she struck a mailbox on the way, but that was all she struck. She would pull over a parking lot at one point and some guy tried to go over and talk to her, but then she took off again and it was held bent. >> Oh, did she -- did she take it off after somebody approached her? >> Well, I don't know if she saw them approach her, but he noticed that she was swerving all over the road and that she went into this parking lot and I think he thought maybe he'd go over, but whether she knew he was coming after, I don't know. Anyway, when he got over there, she proceeded on -- the Frappuccino was waiting, I guess, at the Starbucks. It was in the target there. >> Margaret, this one of these moments where you wish you still had a column at the Herold of the Globe. >> It would be fun to write about the eight-year-old taking mom's car. Happily, no one was injured and it all turned out well and the SUV, I guess, only has a couple of little dents on the side or whatever. >> So it was yours. Hey, Andrea, see you. >> Maybe there was a sale that was going to be over that day and she just had to get there. >> School clothes, right? She wanted some snazzy or school clothes. Didn't like what mom bought. She wanted something a little hipper. >> Yeah. >> And she got it. >> 500 kabal. >> 500 kabal. >> Moms charge cards, too. >> Okay. >> See you soon. Thanks. >> Thank you very much, Andrea. We've been speaking with former Suffolk County District Attorney and Sheriff of Suffolk County Massachusetts Secretary of Public Safety as well, Andrew kabal who joins us every week. After a quick break, we have a comedian, Lewis Brown. >> Black, too. >> Whoops. >> Black. Sorry. I was reading about this creepy, crawling, gero spider. I was going to talk about that after Lewis Black. He's in town as part of his final stand-up tour. He's going to be at the Wilbur this weekend. We're going to tell you all about what he's doing and talk to him about his legendary career. Lewis Black is next. You're listening to Boston Public Radio 89-7 GBH. >> Welcome back to Boston Public Radio. I'm Jim Brody. She is Margarita. We're live at the library tomorrow and Margarita is forcing me to say no tickets or RSVP. Stay as little or as long as you like or whatever. Our next guest might hold the crown for the most recognizable scream in all of cinema. Here's a little compilation of him voicing anger in the beloved Pixar films Inside Out and, of course, Inside Out, too. >> No dessert? Oh, sure. We'll eat our dinner right after you eat this. Do you like to remind me? I got something for you to read right here. >> Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. We're going to be copper. What's that? Sorry, I don't think moron as well as you, but let me try. >> And if he doesn't, he certainly holds the crown as the longest-running correspondent on Comedy Central's Great The Daily Show. Shaping America's views on the state of the world and direct you to nation zeitgeist with his commentary or not. Here's a bit from his latest stand-up comedy special out on YouTube. However, as if I said anything on the stage that has changed anything, thousands and thousands of people have come and watched me. And the next day woke up and went, "Pfft, it's still the same." And you should know that since I started doing it, things have gotten worse. >> Of course, we're talking about the legendary, I think, grumpy comedian Lewis Black. He's allegedly saying goodbye to the Comedy Circuit for good with a good-by-yeller brick road tour. He has two shows this weekend, Saturday and Sunday at the Wilbur Theatre. Saturday sold out, still seats for Sunday for information and to book tickets, go to the Wilbur.com. And, it's a serendipity for us because Lewis joins us the day after his city's mayor is indicted on corruption charges. Welcome to the show, Lewis. It's great to see you. >> Yeah. Thanks to see you. >> Thank you so much for joining us. So before we give the yellow brick road tour, what do you think about the mayor? I mean, he's been a little bit sketchy for a while, according to some voters, but now they're searching his house? >> Yeah, whatever they got to do to get him out of office, I don't care. He is -- boy, they're going after him because he's -- he might have committed some crimes. He's made the blazio, who I thought was the worst mayor ever, look good. I mean, it's -- I just -- I mean, normally I don't care so much. I don't pay much attention when you have a sense of the city, you know, being one way or the other, but this is just beyond belief. >> So which mayor did you like? Ed Koch? Who's your guy? >> None of them. >> None of them, okay. >> Well, Ed Koch would come into a restaurant that -- a friend of mine owned, you know, and wave his how am I doing, how am I doing, you know, well, I'll tell you how you do it. But, you know, who was good? >> Who? >> Blumberg. >> Michael Blumberg. >> Do good job. >> A local boy from Medford, Massachusetts, Louis, by the way. >> Is that right? >> Yeah. Well, he learned something up there much the way I learned comedy up there, because he -- he was -- A, he didn't -- he shut his mouth. B, if something was wrong and they couldn't find money, he'd throw some money. >> Where'd you learn comedy up here? What do you mean by that? >> I've worked a lot at the -- at "Caturizing Star," and that was pivotal, I think, in terms of my learning process. It was huge. I learned a lot from Boston Comics, you know, Don Gavin, to Sweeney, to, you know, Tony V, I can go through a list of them. I worked with the Cross Comedy, which was David Cross's comedy group. And then I brought them to New York to that restaurant. I was talking about where Katch would show up, and they performed downstairs. And I did a show with Hasty putting one -- one, you know, fall, winter, and it was -- and I only had to do like four shows or five shows that was played by Chris Durang, and we did it with the A-R-T, and I could go after the show and perform at Katch, which was a half a block away. So, you know, before we leave New York, since you are a New Yorker, I can't help -- our listeners might want to know what you think of the trajectory of the former mayor of America. Could you ever see Rudy Giuliani winding up where he is now, back when he's a mayor? >> Yeah, from the very beginning winding up where he is, you know, he was just frequently full of himself, you know, I mean, he did initially an interesting job, I mean, he got some things that, you know, he dealt with some stuff. But without Dinkins, once again, these idiots don't have any sense -- none of them have a sense of history. If it's not for Dinkins getting the cops, Giuliani can't execute what he wants to do in the city. So, anyway, I mean, just -- look, I got -- this is -- I got arrested for -- with a bunch of others that I was going to show, the Opium Anthony show, we were driving -- >> Oh, yeah. >> -- we were driving to the city -- this will no doubt bring the audience out. Well, we were driving to the city with topless girls in a bus, and Giuliani had us pulled over and said, you know, and it wasn't against the law. I mean, it was -- it all, because women can be topless in New York. So he said we were, you know, we were creating a public nuisance, and we spent literally a night in jail in the -- in the tombs there, which was -- that was how anybody ends up going to prison, and says, I'm going to commit another crime, one night was enough. >> By the way, the U.S. attorney just texted that he'd like to talk to you right after the interview. >> Yeah. >> So is this farewell thing BS? I never know. When somebody like you has been around forever and is beloved, which you are in an odd sort of way, when you say it's a farewell tour, is it really a farewell tour or is that -- is that a little bit of hyperbole there, Lois Black? >> Oh, it's really -- I mean, I'm not going to do 150 shows. You're not going to see this is the -- this, you know, I did -- you know, I did a tour called Old Yeller. I did another tour, you know, you know, I've done, you know, like 15, 16, 17, we have very many tours. They all have titles. This -- this is the end of -- you know, I'm not going to do 150. I may show up and do a show. I may show up and sit with somebody and talk about some things, right, you know, the daily show or whatever if people want to listen to me, you know, wax on about -- but -- but I'm not -- I'm not doing -- and I will open for certain people. >> But can I do some math for you? I mean, so if that's true, and I know you love stand-up, Marjorie wants to talk about that in a second in your relationship to the audience, I've heard you say I think both your parents lived into their hundreds, which means you have decades to go theoretic. Well, actually, before I ask this, here's from your latest stand-up special, "Tragically, I Need You," where you're talking about your incredible 103-year-old mother and what she had to say about you here in the nursing home. >> To give you an idea just how tough -- I mean, she practiced on me, okay, and this is how -- this is the last -- one of the last things she said when I saw her recently, just to give you a taste of what's coming for you, she said to me, there's actually to the caregiver there, shoot, he just put me to sleep. I can't imagine what he does doing a lot of it. >> So was she as funny as she appeared to be, and if she was, is that where you got this thing years? >> I got a lot of it from her. I got the sarcasm from her, and from my father, I got -- my father also was very funny. And you'd be sitting there, you didn't think he was listening this up, and then he'd come out with his singer. But he also -- he taught me that there's a line you can't cross, which my mother would cross all the time. So I got a bit from both of them, and it was huge. But I can't see. I saw one of the reasons for retirement, too, is I ran into Don Rickles on a flight up to Michigan, and we were staying there. I was staying in the city we were in that night, and the next morning, he was going to continue to fly further north, and he was in his 80s, and I just said to my opening act, if I was doing that in my 80s, I want you to shoot me. I'm not doing that. It's kind of like, for me, it's run in part, it's course. How many jokes can you make about this insanity? >> Yeah. >> Every special, I have a joke that -- this is the Republicans and this, honky honk, quack, quack, quack. It's the same over, and over, and over again. Now it's just gotten a little crazier, but it's the same. So eventually, I'll come up with the joke before the next special, and we'll move on to the next series of Jackasses. >> Do you ever bump into Trump in the city? >> Yeah. >> And he was an idiot, okay? I mean, he was not -- I was at a -- I was doing something that a book -- a book that -- a big benefit book thing for the -- I can't remember for what, and we were at the museum of the big natural history museum there with the way we were all eating under the whale, and I'm standing there and Trump's there with his family, and he's yelling that he doesn't have the right table, and I'm going -- >> Oh, God. >> The series -- he didn't get the good table, and you watch that, and I, at the time, you know, I -- it's the first time I knew who he was and stuff, and I thought, really, this is -- that's what, you know, generally, when you go to those events, there's somebody who is always thinks they're more entitled than the next person, and I thought, this is perfect. So that's what I've -- >> Nothing changes. >> And then we -- >> We're talking -- >> Huh? >> He called to talk to me. >> He did? >> He did? >> Yeah, and his assistant called my assistant, and because I had done a piece on him, you can see it. It's on the Daily Show, and I did this thing where I talked about how -- this was years ago. Before his election, I said that what he needed -- what American needed was a banana boat dictator. So -- >> Oh, God. >> -- we did it, and then literally two days later, I get a call. I call my assistant, she says, "What do I tell him?" I said, "Tell him I'm busy." I'm just -- I'm busy right now, and my parents -- literally, my parents are coming to town. So I said, you know, some of -- you know, we can -- and I didn't really want to talk to him, but I hadn't gotten to that point, and so -- I just said, you know, just tell him it's too hard at this point, and then they came back, "No, he really wants to talk to you. One would be a good time." I was like, "Tell him my parents are coming to town, and I'm dealing with him, and I'm thinking he's making apparently millions of dollars. I'm a schmuck comic, and I'm busier than he is." I'm like, "Come on." And I just thought, "I'm not going to talk to him, because this is after the entitlement time." I said, "I'm not going to talk to him, because then he'll feel like he's entitled to talk to me." And I don't talk to people I make jokes about. So, do you ever talk to him? No. Okay. So, you just said -- and by the way, we're talking with Louis Black, he's in town for two shows, The Wilbur Theater, sadly sold out, but there are still tickets for Sunday. He can go to thewillbur.com. So, Louis Black, who just said you weren't surprised at -- you saw the Giuliani's mayor of New York. You weren't surprised by his trajectory. You know, we had the nail polish or hair dye, whatever it was, dripping down the side of his face, and making it a fool of himself. Have you been surprised by Donald Trump's presidency? Did anything there surprise you? I mean, I know the entitled to the table, but he's really taken things many steps further than I think some of us thought he would. Oh, yeah. No, he went way further than I imagined he would go. I didn't think that would be the case of him doing that. I just didn't think -- You didn't see the dogs and cats coming? I didn't really because I didn't think -- you know, I thought he'd get tired of it because it was like the pomp and circumstance and all about it, I'm sure he was enjoyed, but I didn't think it would go where he actually started, and he'd be surrounded by people who would go, "You know, if you did this, you could get that. You know, if you did this, you could keep being the president," you know, and it's -- and he learned it from Roy Cohn. Oh, yes. I mean, just want -- come on, people. You know, I just knew that -- what I knew was coming was that he's relentless, and I knew that we were dealing with a narcissist. And I knew that the problem always was that, you know, the people of New York, nine out of ten of us literally polled, said we wouldn't vote for him to be president. But nobody listens to us because they think we're jackasses, you know, "Well, why would you listen to it in New York in there?" You know, they just shoot their mouths off, "What do they know about him?" Well, meanwhile, what they ended up doing was that, you know, not only did they not listen to us, then they end up falling in love with the biggest jackass that has ever come out of me. Beautiful putt. Hey, you know, Lois, you mentioned Roy Cohn, and we were talking -- Michael Kirk is one of the great filmmakers who works for "Frontline." Every four years he does something called "The Choice," where he spends time on each of the candidates, and he tells the story, it just aired, I think, Tuesday night for this cycle. He talks about Roy Cohn and, you know, housing discrimination, and Cohn tells young Trump just assert that we won, even though we lost and all that sort of thing. But when we were talking to Michael Kirk the other day, one of the things we said to him is what comes through in your film is little Donald Trump told you exactly who big Donald Trump was going to be. And every time I watch or listen to you, I swear this is true. I imagine little Louis Black, wherever the hell you were in Maryland or wherever you grew up or something, you were probably exactly the same as you are today. Is that a fair statement or not? It is to a point. I realized there was a little bit of a difference when I was at the Emmys, and I'm not saying that to say I was at the Emmys, but I was, and they, because, you know, the Daily Show was nominated. Yeah. And you say giant. You go to this governor's ball and you enter this room, and there is, it must be 150 feet, 200 foot tall, Emmy, that's gold, that's spinning around, spinning, very slowly in the room. Massive room must be 2,000 people in the room. And the Emmys in the center of it, and I'm looking at it, and I'm going, part of my brain goes, this is as close as I'm ever going to get to the golden calf, you know? This is it. And, and I thought, you know, my, the Lewis, the young Lewis Black would have looked at this thing and went, are you kidding me? And I'm sitting here, and it's something I wanted to get in at me. So I'm like looking at this thing, and part of my brain is going, ooh, look at that. And finally, my young Lewis Black went out and just go stop it, idiot. We're talking to the older Lewis Black who's going to be at the Wilbur this, this weekend. You know, I'm speaking to the obvious, TV is, is by leaps and bounds improved over with all those stations and HBO and Prime and all that, you get stuff you can see on TV now. Movies have taken a little bit of a hit, but you were in the, the anger, the inside out one and two, which became like total mega hits. What do you think? What about those films? And why do you think they were so hugely successful? I think that the first one was hugely successful because it was so different in the sense of actually focusing on emotions. I mean, you know, this is something my generation, my general, I, you know, my generation never discussed emotions. My generation had to finally figure out, you know, I had to go spend massive amounts of money in therapy because the only emotions I knew as a child was, you know, I had to, I had to eat and go to the bathroom and so we might have the same mother now I think about it, but go ahead and now we, I look, you know, and so when I was looking at this movie, I'm kind of the first one I'm going, wow, and also just visually. It was a different take on what they do because visually they continue to expand and this was really kind of almost a fantastical animation being done on a different level. And, and it really, you know, it gave kids an understanding. So the kids didn't know that they were, might know what anger was, but they knew that they were feeling red or blue or green and then you go to inside out to right place, right time, couldn't beat it. We come out of the pandemic and what are people experiencing? And even though you don't think you're experiencing it, you're experiencing it and it's called anxiety jackass and, and it's, and the countries are washing it and if they don't, if there is some relationship with the fact that we had a mega head that discussed anxiety, yeah, I just think it was unbelievable. I, I, it's the first time in my life is to get me, can I get a bet down on the overunder about what we're going to be making? Because I thought we would do well. I thought we'd do as well as the other one. But it really, by the, by the time I was through doing the press, were you sitting there with these people? And I've never, I've gone through all sorts of press stuff in my life. And this was way beyond everybody who walked in that room, couldn't say enough about it. By the way, it's the biggest grossing film of the year for people who don't know. Yeah. You lose black. We only have a minute or two left, but you, I really have to admire you. I was watching your rant cast and you, you address what I think. And I think Marjorie gave some of the great outrages of our time with a lot of people. I mean, it's not just Trump, by the way, yesterday on the show, talk about great minds think, we were talking about chicken nuggets. And I was watching a rant cast where you discussed, I think one of the worst decisions from a court didn't come from the Supreme Court of the United States. It came from an Ohio court on the issue of boneless wings. Could you briefly share with us this outrage of people missed your rant cast, please? Well, it came from somebody out in Ohio kind of flipped out because the nice thing about the rant cast is I have folks right here, what's bothering them. They ruled that boneless chicken wings could have boneless. It's an outrage. It's an outrage. That's how we are living in the kind of society we're living in, okay? Boneless means boneless. It does. Even the Vikings, it was that boneless leader, okay? Why? Well, I think he said it beautifully. Okay. You know, you said, you were talking about your sarcastic mom and you're a very funny dad. You've also said in one of these interviews, I read about you, that your primary relationship has been with the audience, that's where you feel most free and most happy. So if you're not going to be in front of that audience with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people, I know you're going to do a play book and all that kind of stuff, how are you going to make up for that relationship loss? And I'm going to get on public transit and yell at people to love me. I mean, it's the rough thing to let go of. I mean, that stuff, I mean, as I said, I've said time and again from before, I even got to that thought that, you know, I said, I'd go in front, going in front of an audience where people like you more than you've ever liked yourself is really, pretty remarkable. And I don't think I have to make up, I think I will do enough kind of stuff in terms of like opening, like for my friend Kathleen Madigan or, you know, doing a lot, I'm going to do a few live broadcasts, even in Boston, I'm hoping on Sunday, we might do folks right in. I'll read some rants at the end of the show and those who go live throughout the, throughout the world and if people can watch it on their computers. So I'm hoping we can pull that off. Lewis Black, good luck this weekend and good luck for the next, whatever, if you live your parents life, 30 years, you're terrific. Thank you so much for your time. Good luck. Thank you so much. Great talk to you. For such enjoyment, Lewis Black, we really appreciate it. Thank you. I really appreciate your time. Thanks. You guys were terrific. Say hello to Mayor Adams for this. Thank you very much. I'll say it was a great interview. They love you. You're going to want to get the call. Thank you. We appreciate that. Be well. Talk to you soon, Lewis. Thank you. We have been speaking with a legendary grumpy comedian, Lewis Black, who sang goodbye to the Comedy Circuit for good with his goodbye yellow brick road tour. Two shows this weekend, Saturday and Sunday, they're both the Wilbur Theatre. Saturday, unfortunately, is sold out, but there are still tickets for Sunday. If you act fast, book tickets at thewillburr.com. That's the Wilburr. W-I-L-B-U-R. Thewillburr.com. Lewis Black, thank you again. Very much. Appreciate it. After a quick break, the Jorrow Spider is officially here. Our animal authority, Simon Gomry, told us yesterday that we have nothing to fear when it comes to the enormous, bright yellow bugs descending on Beacon Hill. But with all respect to Si, is the emergence of Jorrow Spider's Assign that End Times are upon us. Maybe they'll finally spur the legislature to do something all day long. We've been asking you to text in well after a quick break. We're going to read some of your texts about Jorrow Spider's Listening to Boston Public Radio, 897GBH. Welcome back to Boston Public Radio. Jim Brody, Marjorie. By the way, Lewis Black team let us know that while tickets are sold out Saturday, there are a few left Sunday, there are a few tickets also available Friday night at the Casino Ballroom in Hampton Beach, New Hampshire, casinoballroom.com. So all day we've been soliciting your texts on the arrival of this horrible, massive flying Jorrow Spider. I don't think we're overreacting. The four-inch, bright yellow arachnid was spotted on Beacon Hill, yes, there are no doubt looking to catch a few state legislators on vacation. And Marjorie and I saw the news, we were lucky enough, it was yesterday, I've been in line talking with Animal Authority and good friend Simon Gumbry. Here's what Si had to say. And you know, the spider you can see is the spider you want to have. Yeah. You're afraid of spiders because otherwise you're just going to be afraid that spiders are everywhere. This is why I like tarantula is the big enough that you can see. She likes tarantulas. That calm feeling lasted about five minutes until we turned on the local TV news. Here's Channel 25, Boston 25, sorry. Drew Caritis I believe is how the name is pronounced, describing the Jorrow Spider as indeed venomous in that news package about the Beacon Hill Arachnid. Like all spiders, Jorrows are venomous and that combined with its size has startled a few who have come to take a peek. Not a problem. So our question essentially is this the end? If you're not worried about your kids failing out of public schools as we discussed in the beginning, or you're worried about them getting trapped in the web with the eight-legged beast of a spider, what did the textors say, Marjorie? Well, first of all, I want to say that they are indeed venomous, as the newscaster just said. Yeah. But it's there that venomous is not going to hurt you in a way similar to who. Well, I'm reading from the Boston Globe, Travis Anderson, it says a bite would be similar to a mosquito bite causing some itchiness, redness, and swelling, but it's not going to kill you like, you know, or make you really sick like a black widow or something. However, the textures have weighed in, and anonymous texture says the spiders are only on Beacon Hill until the end of their month-long vacations. Oh, that's sort of clever. But the legislature is on a vacation for five months. Next. And then anonymous texture says, if Simon Gomory says not to worry about the Duro spiders, then I won't. John London do. Wait, wait, wait. She also said don't worry about tarantulas. I love side, but really I'm serious. I mean, she's like a different species herself. Go ahead. Next. Okay, John London, Duro New Hampshire. I, for one, welcome our new flying spider overlords. And Ryan from Wales says that Joe is just a spider, a beautiful flying spider, but just a spider. We should all be thankful. We don't have an influx of giant flying trumps. Far more dangerous just by opening his mouth. And remember Chuck Todd told us at the beginning of the show about flying cockroaches in Miami where he grew up? I know. How grotesque is that? It is, it is grotesque. But I think in general, we shouldn't be too worried. Somebody did say that they can lay an egg that they said that the flying spider might be pregnant. And if it's pregnant, it can lay over 1000 eggs. That's from Tammy and Bedford. Some other people think this segment is actually laying an egg. So it's a similar kind of concept. Thank you very much. Okay. Luckily we're out of time. All right. We are here. That part is totally real. They are here. Okay. Coming up after the new news, longtime sports journalist Melissa Lucky just published a memoir about her struggle as a female reporter to gain access to the Yankees locker room way back when Reggie Jackson was paying for the plan for the Yankees. We're going to talk to what orders like to be a woman's sports writer then and what it's like now and if there is less hostility and more acceptance, you're talking, you're listening rather to Boston Public Radio 89 7 GBH. I'm Jim Brownie. I had an hour three of Boston Public Radio trailblazing sports journalism. Melissa Lucky joins us ahead of two events in Massachusetts promoting her book locker room talk, a woman's struggle to get inside, all about her pioneering fight for equal access in Major League Baseball. I'm Marjorie Egan and we'll end the show with you and my favorite segment of the week and I'm the A-hole. Today's prop involves a grubby figure dinner date who got straight cut french fries for himself but couldn't resist reaching across the table to attack the curly fries of his woman date much to her to grin. She made a very big deal about it, was she the jerk? Or was Jim Brownie's inspired fry thief the A-hole? Colin Texas should follow us next on Boston Public Radio 89 7 GBH. I'm Marjorie Egan and welcome to our number three of Boston Public Radio 89 7 GBH. I want to mention that we're going to be at the Boston Public Library tomorrow on Friday. Hello again, Jim. Hello again, Marjorie. Joined now by longtime sports reporter, True Trailblazer Melissa Lucky. Her new memoir, It's Out and Out, tells the incredible story of her fight for an equal shake as a female reporter working at Sports Illustrated suing successfully to be allowed access to major league baseball locker rooms like all her male colleagues back in the 70s. The book is called Locker Room, Talk a Woman's Struggle to Get Inside. It is out now. As I told Melissa in the hall, I was up most of the night reading and it is spectacular. She has two local book events coming up one tonight, Namhurst and other on Saturday in Cambridge. For more information, you go to Melissa Lucky, which is L-U-D-T-K-E. Melissa, it's great to see you. Congratulations. Fabulous, Jim. To be here in Marjorie. Hello, hello. Hello. Remember you from many summertime, sound cake, Melissa? We're just talking about it. We are the God-girls. That's right. Oh my God. Oh my God. That is correct. But congratulations. Ditto to just, Jim said, this is a fascinating book about a fascinating time for women getting into journalism particularly, as you say, in just sports, which was even harder. So how did this all get started? All it got started through really cases of serendipity, which I tell young people today. Serendipity really is when something happens that you grab hold of, we can all have lots of serendipitous moments completely pass us by, but you may appreciate this over a dinner table in Hyannisport after my graduation from Wellesley College in liberal arts. I'd never studied anything having to do with communication or journalism. I had the great fortune of sitting across the table from Frank Gifford, who was a sports caster at ABC Sports. And that conversation-- As a fabulous professional football player before that. Absolutely. A matinee idol. And that's kind of how he made the switchover to being a broadcaster. He had just started at Monday Night Football with Howard Kossell and Dandy Don Meredith. And we talked the entire evening. I mean, people joined in. And afterwards, Marjorie, I think you'll appreciate this. He said to me, well, for a girl, you know a lot about sports. And I was 21. I took it as a great compliment because he followed it up very quickly by saying, if you come to New York, I'd be happy to introduce you to folks at ABC Sports. Oh. So I write about it in my book. I'm not going to do the long tail. But let me just say that I entered from that point on. I did move to New York after that visit to ABC Sports. I had caught the bug. I was absolutely determined this was going to be my life, even if I had no roadmap to it. So what I entered into was what I didn't have a word to describe then, which was really networking. I hung out. I got to know the people in sports and one of them introduced me to the man who hired at Sports Illustrated. Let's go back a little bit before we go forward, Melissa Lucky. Was a grandparent, a mother? What was the sports? Oh, my mother. My mother, my mother. What triggered it? Oh, my God. My mother was the fourth of four children in her family that grew up in a suburb of Boston. And she became the one who became the seatmate for my grandmother, who loved, loved, loved the Red Sox and Fenway Park. My grandmother did too, but she didn't go to as many games. My mother became as much of a fan as her father, and they bonded over this. When the team was on the road, she had a cornice in which she had pinned up all the pictures of the team members. She scored every game. She kept scrapbooks. I didn't really know this. When I was starting my journey at Sports Illustrated, I came to find it out. And then when I was about to start writing the book, my mom died, and I discovered a box she'd kept of all the letters that had been written, the amount it cost to send a telegram about my birth, being the first of five children, your mother keeps everything. So I had letters, and I saw this envelope, postmarked, four days after I was born. It was sent by my grandfather. He spelled my name wrong. He was assured that I was going to be a sweet girl. But that wasn't what mattered to him. He had waited four days because the Yankees were in town to play three games with the Red Sox, and he had to report to his dearest Jean, who was an Iowa City giving birth to me how that series had gone. So with a rat-a-tat-tat of his typewriter, he types out most succinct, wonderful, you know, kind of summary of that game, Ted Williams, of course, was evoked, et cetera. And I discovered that letter, it told me that I was born with the DNA of baseball. And then I would come to love it through my mother's incredible attention to the game, whether it was radio or TV or taking me to the ballpark when I was seven years old. By the way, not totally dissimilar story from another pioneer the other day. Doris Kern's good one telling us the same, a similar story about her grandparent and her upbringing. Her father. Her father. Her father. Her father on the stoop. And Doris and I have talked about this. We're hoping to do an event later in Boston together with the wait till next year in the locker room talk and really be able to draw out those stories because, you know, baseball is always noted as a game that's passed down from fathers to sons. Yes. And rarely do women, you know, become part of that narrative story about sort of the generational love of the game. And here Doris and I, you know, have often compared stories on this of how we came to love it through our parents. Can you describe the Yankee? I'm sorry. You go ahead, Martyn. Here you are with the Yankees at a time that they were just such a powerhouse, Reggie Jackson, Thurmond Munson, George Steinbrenner was the curial coach, Billy Martin and all that. Oh, and a rather, and Billy Martin was there. So tell us, set the scene now, you're covering them for Sports Illustrated. So what happened? Well, you know, you use the word powerhouse. I would also use the word powder keg. They were a soap opera in the locker room. I mean, the idea that Reggie had arrived as the highest paid free agent at that time and said that he was the straw that stirred the drink before the season even began. That set up the tension between the captain, Thurmond Munson. And then you had in Fenway Park, the infamous fight that took place in the dugout after Billy Martin pulled Reggie Jackson from the outfield and embarrassed him, showed him up. George Steinbrenner in the mix, it was explosive. So yes, I did cover that team in the sense that I was probably at almost every game, home game, some of the away games, but you know, I couldn't be in the place. I could watch the powerhouse, but I could not be in the powder keg. I could not be in that clubhouse reporting on what was happening there. And that really informed a lot of the stories that were happening at that time. Well, that changed, at least with the Yankees, why did that change? I gradually changed because I worked beneath the radar. I did not want to go public with my struggle just like I didn't want to go back to the folks at SI and whine about what I couldn't do. So I was always trying to find, you know, kind of detours around it. I worked with Mickey Morabito and it really helped. He was the PR guy, first year rookie. And he was my age, which made such a difference because he understood what was happening in the larger world. He and I had many private conversations. And after the all-star game, you're right, Jim. He did surprise me and came to me with what he thought of as a gradualist solution. He knew I was a gradualist as well, and I was very happy with it. He said he would enter the front door, as he always did, of the clubhouse. He'd go around through a side passage. I would wait for him in that side door, and he would let me in after every game, not to the locker room, but to the manager's office. And I said, Mickey, great deal. I'm happy. Let's just do it this way for a while. And that led to Mickey leaving two passes for me for the last two games of the series, of the season, to go into the clubhouse. I went out in the field when I got these passes. I said, Mickey, did you really mean to leave these for me? He said, yeah, absolutely. I know you'll handle it, you know, in the way that you will. I mean, it's fine. You choose how you use it. And so I just want to say I only used it for those two games going in before the game. It's what your listeners are not going to know, because they've heard about the nakedness of ball players, my immorality for wanting to see the naked bodies. That's how this story has been told through the ages. During that time, precious 50 minutes of time to report that the men always had, and I didn't, those men came in wearing their uniforms, and they stayed in those uniforms until the game started, and yet I was excluded. OK, and then the World Series happens, and for baseball historians, even if you weren't born then, one of the great World Series ever, not just involving the great Yankees, but the former Brooklyn Dodgers, the series, and obviously, as we say, Reggie Jackson. So LA, Los Angeles, the players there, the team had not said it was OK for you to come in their locker room. What'd you do then? Actually, they hadn't ruled on it one way or the other. They hadn't had an opinion until I did my mother may I, and figured that because they hadn't had a woman covering them, I actually went to them with my press pass that said I had access to the clubhouse, explained to the player rep, Tommy John, that I had been in the Yankees clubhouse, showed him my pass, and that's when he, Jim, initiated the vote of the team, which was, which was, it wasn't unanimous, but it was a majority that said they understood I had a job to do, and if I needed to do it during the World Series, I was welcome to come inside. So that was fabulous until the fifth inning of game one. It was fabulous. So it lasted for five innings. What happened in the fifth inning, Melissa left? Yeah, I was elated. I mean, I thought finally, I mean, it's been two years of sort of laying the groundwork, and now I can actually participate fully in this coverage. And then in the fifth inning, I heard my name call in a scratchy little speaker behind the alternate press box calling me up to the main press box. And to make it short, the final verdict is, and it's conveyed to me by the head of media. Commissioner Cune refused to meet with me, even though I asked him, and his left tenant told me that it didn't matter, that permission had been granted by the Yankees, by the Dodgers, and by the Baseball Writers Association. It didn't matter. There's the only one who could grant me permission, and permission had never been granted for the series. And then they added, or forever. Well, he didn't tell you what his thinking was, but he did tell, in this rather legendary interview, Cune, the Commissioner of Major League Baseball, speaking to another legend, Howard Kossell, who you had some interesting things with, as to why he banned Melissa Lucky from the locker room at the 77 World Series. Here's Cune. Well, Howard, it's our view that it's not a fair thing for our players. This is Perry with their dressing, and it's Perry with, we think, their entitleism, some reasonable privacy. And as you said, that was total BS based upon what happened before the game, and they're not exactly standing there naked whenever. Of course, it was BS, as was his promise that he had already provided women like me who wanted, for some reason, to cover baseball, separate accommodations that would be suitable for us and equal to what the men had, which was, again, total BS. Separate but equally. Yeah. Yeah. And Melissa Lucky, you know, I so felt for you, there you are, a young woman in your 20, I think you were 26, 27, something like that. When you're being lambasted from coast to coast is some buxom blonde radios or talk shows going after TV commentators going after sports, calmness, Lorraine Newman on a Saturday Night Live, acts as the girl reporter in the locker room interviewing a OJ Simpson, who the implication is he's naked, but he's going to towel around him and she likes what she sees. I mean, how that must have been just devastating. Well, I had to, I had to learn to laugh with some of it, Marjorie. You're right. In essence, I think that anyone who reads my book will come away with a far deeper understanding of how much it hurt me and what my reactions to that hurt and that pain were at what I was called. After all, I had agreed to put my name on as plaintiff only because I felt that I wanted to do this job that I had magically been able to do and love to the core of my being. So that's why I did it and then to have the case mocked and me be demeaned and laughed at. By the way, I did have blonde hair, but I wasn't buxom, but you're right. You're right that I was portrayed that way. Cartoonists had a field day and headline writers had never had so much fun as mixing the puns of baseball with sexual puns. They're cringe worthy if you go back and listen. So Melissa, before we talk about the lawsuit, SI and others filed and what happened with that, where were some of the, I mean, Howard Cosell, we talked about arguably the most game-changing, I would argue, sports announcer ever, he actually introduced opinion, including political opinion, very close to Muhammad Ali when Muhammad Ali was going through it. Where was Howard Cosell, for whom I read, you had to bring a martini once when you were a young kabet over there at ABC. Yeah, ABC hadn't hired me, but I hung out there all the time. I might as well have been hired. So a producer one night, Howard was sort of due to come and do an audio layover for some of the videotape they'd edited and Howard was the best at it, the absolute best. But the producer said, hey, you know, Howard's on his way. It was a Sunday night. I'll never forget it. He said, there's a bar on the corner. Can you go over there and get two martinis and describe them to me just perfectly? I didn't drink martini so I had to take notes. And I went over there. It's not easy to convince a bartender to let you carry two martinis out of a bar. So anyway, yes, I had carried martinis out for him, but Jim, like you, Howard was a lawyer. And that made all the difference both in his, the way he saw the Muhammad Ali case with the draft dodging, et cetera, and the way he saw my case. He saw it as a lawyer would. And that's how I'm finally getting to portray it in my book because, you know, the men had the cameras, the men had the microphones, the men had the typewriters then. And their stories were about what was below the belt in men and above the bra strap and women. You know, and that was it. That was it. Speaking of pioneers. So SI soothes. Yes. Sports Illustrated. Soothes. And the case goes in front of the first black woman to hold a federal judgeship and it just record Constance Baker motley in the whole country in the history of the country. What happens? Well, she gets chosen because they spin the wooden box that's still at this mother court of our country. I remember that box. Right. That box and a clerk pulls out the card from the available judges. I just want to add to that description of her being the flat first black woman judge in the country. This is the mother court of our country. The only one founded before the Supreme Court yet when I arrived, my case arrives in the end of 1977, beginning of 78. She is still the only woman judge who was ever served on that court. And through that process. Southern District in New York, right? Yes. Yes. Yes. And through that process of spinning the box, the clerk pulling it out, there is her name. So I think that my my lawyer certainly, you know, understood that and understood then how to use precedence that she had set in her cases, arguing of the 14th amendment cases for racial discrimination cases for her black climate clients as she had dismantled Jim Crow in education in the South. So from our case, for a standpoint, the legal arguments were strengthened by her knowledge and her precedent setting of them. From baseball, my understanding is from reading now clips from the time and talking with people, I think they believed that because she was a black woman, they thought her decision would be potentially weak and that they would overturn it at the appellate level. Wow. But when three white male judges on the Southern Second Circuit of the appellate court ruled three nothing and had nothing to say but compliments for her order and her decision in this case, that's when baseball dropped the case. I love it. I just love it. We're talking with Melissa Lucky. The book is locker room talk, a woman struggled to get inside. We're going to tell you about the events that she's going to be appearing at in just a couple of seconds. So Roger Angel, the probably premier baseball writer I think for decades and a lot of people's minds anyway, wrote for the New Yorker, he wrote a piece talking about your case called sharing the beat that wound up getting you in a little post-suit trouble. What happened? Well, it did. Let me first say that when Roger Angel went to the famous editor Bill Sean and told him he wanted to write about women's sports writers, Bill Sean's answer to him is, "Be sure it's funny." Roger didn't answer him and to his credit, Sean came back to him after sharing the beat was published in 1979 and said, "I'm sorry," he said, "Now I get it." But to your point, yes, I ended up in a squeeze play. I had just left CBS News where I had gone to thinking I wanted to move into TV with Walter Cronkite and the rest and found that it wasn't well suited to me. So I'd actually tried to return to Sports Illustrated. They were very happy to have me until coincidentally that week Roger Angel's piece came out and they called me in for a meeting and they read a paragraph from it in which I was quoted as saying that I believe that Time Incorporated filed its suit because women had sued them earlier in the '70s in 1971 and they'd had to sign a conciliation agreement for gender discrimination and then I said I didn't feel that the basic workings of the magazine had changed and essentially I was told because I actually hadn't signed the official papers with the human resources so they had me in the squeeze play. They told me that if I didn't recant what I said and refer to that in speeches that I was still giving or interviews that I was not welcome back and so holding back tears, I left that office, got down the elevator as soon as I could and when I got outside I burst forth in just sobs and sobs of tears and walked home as though I had windshield wipers on my eyes. It was horrible. Melissa Lucky, you have a daughter, what did you know her think of this book in the story? She's heard this story a lot. I know, and what's our reaction to this? I think she's proud of me. I mean I have to tell you that I don't think a bigger smile has come across my face than last Monday night, this Monday night, when I was out at Wellesley College which is both of our alma mater's and I was just beginning to sit down to begin doing my presentation and I look up and there she is with her fiance, herself and her bestest, bestest friend from Wellesley and there are the three of them walk in and I tell you it just lightened my load for that evening and made me just smile. That's beautiful. Do you relive this, I'm sure you relive it all the time and you finally get to tell your story the truth of your story. Whenever there's a woman who has to do what you did in her field, I mean there's a woman doing it right now who wants to be the leader of this country. Absolutely. You live through that? Do you understand what I'm doing? Yeah I do. What's that? I do. I do. What is the Harris thing doing? Do you work for you? I wouldn't have had had I not gone through really trying to create that rhinoceros skin I call it, sort of that skin that wouldn't let these insults and these demeaning comments and the sexualization of me come through. I answered that last night with college students who asked roughly the same question what should they do if they find themselves in this situation fighting for transgender rights, LBGT on the front lines of some of the gender battles we still have ahead of us. And I said you need to do what I didn't do. And that is you need to really talk to a small group of trusted friends. You need to let them understand what you're going through the emotions that you're feeling. You need to have a circle of people that you trust and talk to them. And I'm watching front lines of peace now on Kamala Harris and Donald Trump, the fabulous one. We had Michael Kirk on this last week and I'm watching it last night and what I'm seeing in that you always learn something new I'm learning about her best friends. And so when I watch her best friends talk last night I'm thinking about that question you just asked me because I know they're her best friends that are there for her. I didn't do that it was a huge mistake. I made a dreadful mistake in my life to say I'd marry a man three weeks after I met him during that time thinking that was a safe harbor. The safe harbor would have been my friends. They argued against that marriage. They said don't do it. They warned me. And I for some stubborn reason stuck to it and was married that May. Six weeks after my hearing it was a very chaotic time. And I should have done and followed the advice I would give to younger people now and that is find a trusted circle of people. And I believe watching that documentary on front line that Kamala has that. Melissa Lucky how has it changed for women in the sports writing business in 2024? Well I would say it's changed hugely and powerfully in favor of seeing women's bylines and not thinking twice about how they get their stories or the fact that they're writing these stories but I would also caution us with that because when you look at something like what the AP did the AP sports editors does a report every two years looking at diversity in newsrooms. And that includes now digital newsrooms and operations. And for the last two reports they've given an F on gender diversity in sports. So what you're finding is that there are still maybe one or two women who sort of lasted out in newsrooms and stay with sports. What's interesting is there are a lot more women in sports journalism classes today. I'm observing that. It's why journalism professors from around the country are calling me and asking me to do zooms with their classes because they don't have a lot of materials that really speak to women's lives in this. And I'm delighted that they're asking me I've been doing it for years. So your answer it's complicated and one of the things we do notice and this is really to the good is that women are off the sidelines and they're in the broadcast booth and they're in it in powerful ways they're doing play by play they're doing commentary. And yes you know on X you'll see the usual tropes about you know get this woman off of my sport I can't stand her voice get her away it's ruining the game for me. You still find that. But you know they're there and the good news in baseball is that there is a heck of a bench coming along in minor league baseball where women are doing it. I mean the sea dogs the two women from there were just invited up to do the broadcast with the Fenway crew. Those are all women broadcast crew on the radio. That's right. They're great. I mean it's fabulous. So that's coming coming attractions. Melissa your book is fabulous. Your story is fabulous and you're an inspiration to everybody. You really are great. It's great to see you. Yeah thank you thank you so much Melissa and even though you don't drink martinis maybe you can have one with me on the cake and the coming summers. Okay. We will definitely do that. Okay. Thanks again Melissa. Okay. Thank you. We have been speaking with long time and heroic really sports journalist and feminist trailblazer Melissa Lucky her new book available in stores now very inspiring locker room talk. A woman's struggle to get inside Melissa has two local book events coming up one tonight in Amherst the other Saturday in Cambridge for more information you go to MelissaLucky.com I'll spell it for you L U D's and David T K E Melissa Lucky.com. Thanks again Melissa for being with us. Such a quick break it is time for my favorite segment of the week. M I the a hole you're out at a restaurant a double date someone at your table gets the better crispier curly fries are you entitled to steal a fire without running ruining the entire dinner Jim says yes obviously because he does still people's food all the time but the caller text us your thoughts eight seven seven three oh one eight nine seven oh listening to Boston for the radio eighty nine seven GB H. Welcome back to Boston public radio Jim Marjorie again we're live at the Boston public library tomorrow pictures you're out to dinner with friends someone at your table gets the good French fries with their meal not those you know those bloated soggy potato wedges but the golden brown crispy thin cut curly fries is so bad for you to reach over and take one even if the allure of the fry was so great that you kind of I don't know maybe forgot to ask first that's an alleged real life question posted on Reddit when I say alleged because you never know but well actually you do know because I've been there it's time for another round of M I the a hole here on Boston public radio for the uninitiated every week we ask you to parse the ethical gray areas let's say presented by users on the Reddit forum aptly named M I the a hole this week's issue comes courtesy of user I have the tiger one who successfully ruined a double date when he took the fry from the plate of his friend's partner he did not ask but he did give a courteous how do your fries taste before reaching over to find out for himself a man after my own heart the woman did not take it well she shut down entirely refusing to eat the rest of her meal and refusing his offer to buy her a new thing of French fries as an apology the numbers eight seven seven three zero one eighty nine seven is quite simple is the fry thief this week's a hole for not asking before he took a fry and I've done it more than once or is the a hole the girl friend's girlfriend for making such a big stink out of this really petty offense eight seven seven three zero one eighty nine seventy so okay we know where I am where you in this work for grabbing the food from all these other people but I would say no can I explain that that's not fair my attitude you do if you have a lot of something yep on your plate and it looks interesting there is no harm if you reach over politely and you grab one of those things and eat it no harm done at all okay let me say this is french fries are unique they're communal food I think oh if you go out if you go out for dinner somewhere and there's four people and one of them has french fries only one they have to be ready that people are going to eat the french fries even if you don't ask even if you don't ask because it's they're kind like because I know you agree with me it just involves your thumb and your index finger right going in discreetly and begin at the french fry so you're not really contaminating their other food right this is not like what you do which is like somebody to have a you know an egg over easy or something and you want to go in with a fork and take a bite of it or touch somebody's sandwich and pull it apart and eat I've never pulled apart I have taken a bite of someone else's sound but I have never okay I have never well okay so I've never pulled it apart you know my attitude is let me be clear because I don't want to be brutalized here by you okay yeah you should ask if you have time or inclination if you don't ask and the food is sitting there and there's a lot of food on the plate and if you reach over politely and just take some of it you're leaving 95% of it and by the way the guy to his credit staff is saying that's right Jim you just go right in with your hands stealing the cheese off other people's pieces by the way I did not steal all the cheese I did not I took a portion of the cheese on someone else's pizza and that was the end of that and by the way all these people everybody's gonna agree with you but I'm telling you that trust me there is no one who's gonna call and agree with you who has not done exactly what this guy did and exactly what I do all the time I mean you just take something you thank the person and they go on and by the way it is perfectly fine well you actually should ask me before you take something but if I have something on my plate and you want it is a fairly good shot you can have some of it eight seven seven three zero one eighty nine seventy this is Rama from central Massachusetts I like to grab you know one or two of I think they mean french fries when the weight waiter a waitress goes by with one of those big trays from behind it's kind of a sneak attack they don't see him no harm no foul and then and from Pembroke is grossed out by both of us she said I would never want to go out to eat dinner with either one of you you absolutely should ask before you touch anybody's food well can I tell you what the only flaw is that even though I said you should ask there is at least some possibility if you ask the person is gonna say no and that creates a real dilemma so I would say just do it politely thank the person and move on eight seven seven three zero one eighty nine seven you've never taken anything off someone else's plate without french fries okay so I think I have asked I think I've asked no you don't even know if you've asked so obviously you haven't asked me without asking because they're french fries I think that's kind of community you have to get there for the whole table you just get a big order for or you know what another what onion rings nothing what's the same thing so let me ask let me a positive one more thing and then we'll take calls eight seven seven well lines full three zero one eighty nine seven let's assume someone's having a steak not french fries but they're the kind of person that cuts their steak up into pieces and they're like twelve pieces of steak sitting on their plate what harm is there if you reach over with your fort not your fingers and grab one piece of the steak is that so horrible yeah I think that that is that is a problem what's in between that and a fry what's in between that and because it's you can't be you can't be like discreet and subtle about it you know you're just going over and putting your whole self onto their plate and by the way we just gotta text from somebody who says I think it's Dave from Concord he said he's been married twice with first wife it would not have been a problem or maybe I could get it backwards because I've lost the text with second wife it would be a problem which one is the better wife by the way one last thing do you not think she overreacted that don't you want to answer now I don't now I do not want to answer it and I heard it and I don't want to answer it now let me just say this and the last thing do you not agree that even if the guy was in the wrong do you not think this woman's reaction was a gross yeah she stops talking she won't eat the meal yeah she is this a hissy fit did you just explain this part how she just sits there yeah she sits there yeah she sits there and she says she's not going to eat anything at all she just throws her color on the table and sits back and the poor guy feels terrible and he tries to make up for it they go out for a cigarette break the two guys who discuss the problem and they basically eat the meal in silence because this woman is I think she's got a problem guys got a problem where do you want to go okay let's go to Mike in Woodstock I'm Mike no that's actually not next well I can't see the call I'm sorry Keith and Newton you are next and we'll get to you Mike next sorry I'm sorry Mike hello there hello hi how are you listen I I'm married to a woman who all she really wants to do is dig in to my plate sometimes even before she takes from her own plate and I've been married the 40 years so I can accept it but here's the thing yeah um on a date with someone the fact the litmus test that she can tolerate a finger grab off of your plate as opposed to you know moving with a fork and knife I guess yeah it's just as well this guy never sees her again wow well he wasn't seeing her it was the other one's date I think but I know what you mean and that's a fine call to start us off Keith thank you very much for the call Jim I have never met your mother but you have spoken her often enough times that I feel safe to say you are the a-hole on this one what I just got to do with my mother oh I think she is a sense of how you were raised because you talked about her mother your mother so often eight seven seven three zero one eighty nine seven is our phone number go ahead this is Bill from Bridge border you can grab them by the fries and when you're a celebrity they let you do it okay figure that out if you don't get it go to access Hollywood Mike and Woodstock your next on Boston Public Radio welcome in the show hi Mike hey how you doing today excellent fine thank you good good hey uh you definitely have to ask before you one get someone else's plate otherwise why don't you just move to California where everybody's played this fair game wait oh that's a good point why do you think that's true in California these are the people that go out with their ex-wives and their new husbands I mean that's why the face it's like a total free for all out there it is anything goes okay Mike thank you it's brutal it's incredible thank you very much for the call here's Chris from Fall River clearly something is wrong with Jim do you remember by the way we did a bit when we were doing cable news where we went to Johnny's lunch in that which has the best corn and passion gritter balls and a Newton Center and we walked around with a camera and I was taking fries and other things off people's plate did anybody object and by the way we weren't even sitting with them did anybody object to that as far as you know some people did object to it they were pretty good those people I mean you were like you were going into their scrambled eggs and stuff like no it was not actually that is totally untrue you were hash browns and fries was all I was touching and the probably by the way you should let me be clear there is some etiquette to this you should carefully attempt not to touch other fries or other hash browns if you're doing this you touch the one that you are taking and that's the end of it and it should be the end of it Ian and Somerville welcome to the show hi Ian hey Jim hey Marjorie hope you guys are having a good day we're good thank you we hope you are too that's great that's great well look it when you order french fries you have to have some sort of understanding that there's other people at the table exactly they're gonna want to take a couple fries exactly said you need to ask you need to put there's a little song and dance and you need to be performed for you to earn that fry you need to ask nicely you need to oh can you would you be so kind as let me take one two fries you know you need to ask and I think uh that's an important element the woman in the reddit post seems to be a little uh a little much frankly and you know you need to be putting up a hisky fit over it but you do need to ask you need a let me propose an alternative instead of asking up front how about taking and immediately thanking for what you've taken is that not a reasonable substitute it's a little presumptuous Jim it is I don't know if I wanted to dinner with you if you're just taking food off they'll pay without anything else okay well okay well it should be but at the same time you should be saying people are you gonna want my fries I need to accept that and be willing to give one I thank you by the way Zoe just wrote me a note I was looking for this expression I couldn't remember it pray for forgiveness rather than ask for permission I am totally that is the uh a very good way to live I would say well Chris and North Andover says Jim is the a-hole thou shalt not covet thy neighbors fries it is a freaking commandment and Colin and Marblehead wants to know Jim is it okay to go to the salad bar and stick your fingers in it at Whole Foods I've never I've never once in my whole life put my fingers in the salad bar at Whole Foods I occasionally sample some of the things and they prefer you not but that's a whole different experience I should listen to this Eric from Arlington my wife was traumatized as a child by older brothers who stole from her plate I almost got a fork in the back of my hand the first and only time I reached over to her plate now I would never take without asking well that's what you learn in the heart right that's a cautionary tale that really is incredible yeah a cautionary tale path from sandwich what do you think cut and sandwich I think it has nothing to do with what food you're taking I think it has to do it's not the darn french fry it's about respect if you're grabbing something off my plate without asking me that's not respectful of me oh oh we lost your fork in my food Pat we got that we lost you for a second but she's Pat saying it's about respect and so it's not really about the darn fry or whatever Pat said there for Pat thanks for your perspective we really appreciate 877-301-8970 the anonymous textor says I've seen a friendship and for somebody double dipping a french fry in ketchup the guy who took the french fry was clearly the a-hole what are you saying is the issue taken to the fryer the double dip a lot of people i seem to be wasn't there a Seinfeld episode on that people really don't like a double dip you theoretically dip once and then once you put it in your mouth you don't dip on the that's right the mouth portion of whatever it is you're dipping correct i can respect that this probably a little double dipped in the little container by the way robinese felmouth raises something i think if you really don't want this to happen he is the solution we used to lick our fries as kids to prevent our friends from stealing them now if that's what if you have a problem with somebody taking your fryer whatever it is that's what you should do you should lick them first and that really really oh it does it takes care of the issue preemptively here's paul from south bro this situation calls for the classic line quality check as you grab a fry or two nicole from husband thank you for calling hello nicole hello hello hello can you hear me we can oh good hi hi um i i feel definitely the a-hole is the one who took the fry off the plate was that i let their friend is a germaphobic watch touch anything on that person's plate they can no longer eat it and i think it's terribly insensitive and very um you know that you feel that everybody's like you i think you have to respect you don't know how someone feels that's right i think you have to respect them and their food and you water your own french fries now nicole let me ask you if there's an exception and you state it beautifully is there an exception let's assume that the fry is upright in the pile and by touching that individual fry no wait wait you are not touching any other for is still a problem makes no difference just no one is worried about terms and i think it's really appalling that anyone would think that they know what the other person feels and so they want to fry and they're just going to take it well i have to say you made your cases powerfully as anybody that was very compelling thank you thank you and call for that you know richard has a struggle because he says my wife asked to have some of my food before i even take a bite of it myself and it drives me nuts and then listen to this what's wrong with that if you're asking there what's the answer is say that's the problem you may get a no and then you're really screwed then you're almost preempted from taking something so that's the problem with asking okay this is this is from from mccainbridge i had a friend whose shaky marriage ended the night his wife reached across the across the table to take an unsolicited forkful of his pumpkin creme brulee at harvest restaurant he pointed out that she had not asked so she asked and he said no see get your own and those were the last words he spoke to her before the lawyers took over so guys see part of the problem we should go to the underlying issue sharing is like a lost art in this society and my attitude i'm serious my attitude about food is that it all food and all uh meals should be a communal kind of exercise oh really yes and if they were and if people approach them that way there wouldn't be upset about someone taking a fry or a role or some other thing from someone else's plate marjorie yes there is do you feel this way about things possessive about their own food i mean i do not so it's only food now everything else mine is mine that there's no question but food isn't except it's like a collaborative it's like a isn't it fun when you go out and with your friends and everybody says do you want to buy you to my a fish sandwich you don't like fish sandwiches but you know what i mean do you want to this you want to that some people don't like that they want what they ordered they want to eat their own plate so they should go eat by themselves yeah they have to sit there with their arms around the plate like they're you know protecting it from the other diners who are ready to zoom in jon from an island what do you think jon? hi well this is my solution and my family growing up in my family as an adult with friends you ask the waitress for a small plate she brings you a little plate you take some of your french french fries off your plate whatever you don't want and you put it in the middle of the table and you say hey anybody want some my fries have at it they're too much for me and if they want to all dig into the plate with your fingers and everybody look in their fingers and then going back for a second fry and nobody else wants to try it that's up to them jon kai is anyone ever said to you that you're a problem solver extraordinaire that was brilliant that was brilliant no i mean you deserve praise for that and thanks for the suggestion i think people take it to heart you put a little plate you put some of your fries margarine a little plate and you put them out there now i think what jon didn't address is if you do not have a little plate of fries available to your dining mates then again my position is dig in that's where i am eight seven seven three zero one eighty nine seven this is our weekly mib a-hole segment now this is paul from wister who says when his parents were still around there were times we go out to dinner and ask if they have a lazy susan so we could treat our individual orders like a buffet yeah i like that too by the way a lot of uh uh asian restaurants you can do that kind of thing i mean a lot of there are a lot of restaurants like that let me just say the following what it is just so that people don't think i'm a total cretin here i have often asked people at other tables if i can have some of their no i'm serious if you're sitting in a restaurant i don't understand what's so funny you order your meal and you see that they have something that looks really good hey you over there that's really good with the exception of when we were jonnie's lunch and at filming that bit like 15 years ago whatever it was if i'm going i want to be clear if i'm at if i'm attempting to take something from someone who's sitting at another table whom i don't know every circumstance i ask i never no i seriously have always asked now that's good if you're going to table across the room it's a good idea or even the next table i'm not talking about cross the room necessarily you asked but if you're on the table it's all fair game it's just delicious it's because you want to see if you want to order that or you just want to have a kind of exercise you know it's kind of regret you have you like you look at it in a menu usually i look at the menu before you go to the restaurant you get excited about it so you get there you order your thing and then you order it and you're having regrets because you look at the next table and what the woman or the guy got the next table looks better than yours and so you politely say there you do not just reach over and take some unless they're going to the men's room or the women's room in which case you can you just you when they come back let's say look away zip in and we're not looking you know if you glare at their food more often than not they will say something to you and probably offer you some now listen this might be the contrary opinion here this person says fries are my very favorite thing not something i can make at home so when i go out i want to enjoy all my fries people seem to think that they don't have to order french fries and order enjoy somebody else's french fries and just take them not fair i want my fries well now what do you think of that kind of person by the way well i think that person is very emphatic about their french fries what do you really think i mean it's a little selfish don't you think i think that person they could not sacrifice a fry from a huge pile of fries i mean i mean really it's just i don't know it is true though i think people are very passionate about french fries the one thing i'll say about McDonald's or about get those fries right off right out of the broiler they are whatever they put them in whatever they put them in to cook the fries oil fresh they're great yeah but don't you by the way this is you've limited this to the fry as a discussion which was the issue in the mivahull thing but in some day in the future we're gonna have to talk about expanding this beyond the fry to other items at the table well listen to this one yeah i had a friend who used to try to manipulate me into ordering what she actually wanted so she could feast off my plate you've never done that no don't you couldn't negotiate like a meal if you're out with someone and you say why don't you get so-and-so and i'll get so-and-so and that's yeah so that's a that's a pre-arranged deal where you say okay i can't make up my mind so you get this and you get this and we'll share it yeah that's no that's different that's a pre-arranged show you're not reaching across with your fork and you know going into the you know the creme brulee the person that was at the harvester the pumpkin creme brulee actually harves pretty nice little restaurant there is a very nice little restaurant jenny in the car what do you think jenny jenny what's your deal hi hi can you hear me yeah perfectly oh it's not about the french fries i think clearly this woman secretly despised that man that is an excellent point go ahead she's got a mind of you you know some nice guy like you a nice person like bard me took her french fry but she hates that guy and he went up in there and she's oh that's not okay jenny you cut to the essence of this issue which both of us missed isn't it obvious this woman's got a problem and she hates this guy and didn't want to be out with him on a double date anyway jenny that was excellent that was really really excellent thank you know that is an angle we hadn't considered no we hadn't you know what lori from mensville says obviously not this is a disgusting conversation what what's disgusting about by the way i've been they're germaphobes i know they're germaphobes and that's a real problem but i'm not sure germaphobes should be gone out the with other people we have to ask jared about this because he's got that let me tell you he's got that that disease where if he hears you chewing in the same theater as him he's got to run out of the theater or whatever it is he'll be with us a minute we can ask him do you want we don't have time this unfortunately did you be the guy that we were talking about licking fries before right no i didn't look for someone texted and said yeah they licked the fry when they were kids so no one would eat it yeah okay we already read that one then i want okay let me just say jared is here the story we were telling what's the disease you have again misophonia misophony is this stupid thing where some famous persons got it too who's the famous person like kelly rippa okay kelly rippin jared don't like the sound of somebody chewing in the same room but this isn't even about that no it's not this is just final ladies out go ahead what's your point you've already created strife down at the culture show because we're all listening to this and apparently my team disagrees with me and they disagree they agree with you jim well we knew at your positions don't touch anything how dare you don't dare you it's a little extreme don't you think you can't just take people's food oh yes that's why tapis is the worst invention ever wow oh yeah all share and yeah do i take a little bit of a bigger piece if you're eating french fries which i can't imagine but let's assume you're eating french fries and we were out to dinner and i reached over let's say there were 40 fries that's the average order i think and i took one of them yeah i need you to have left 39 why you'd be upset that i took one afford it's 2.5% by the way would you be upset if i took one fry for take my steak knife and you would not have a finger to remove any more for i believe you go to other two let me ask you one other question can i ask you one other question here let's say it wasn't me but i don't know Liz Cheney you know he reaches over your plate and just takes a fry from your plate what would you do then that's totally fine exactly that is exactly my point with it you know what bobbert in rahoba says that you're just like a seagull at the beach that's all right i'm actually quite proud of that thank you and what do they sound like in little finding Nemo oh no what are they selling mine mine oh mine that's right i'm sorry uh so is Liz Cheney your whole show no she is the first third of the show that is fabulous and you had two nights with her at the what's the thing goal two nights at the boston speaker series and then we spoke yesterday at the boston public library i cannot wait is that we're allowed to say is at the top of the show you're not supposed to stop at the show what else do you have uh we're going to speak with joise cole haywick oh he's got a feeder rundown two fabulous guests two fabulous and a third we're talking about this poet downtown poetry festival which is going to be honoring agra allen poe who is born here in boston before travels to the other cities were there that were instrumental in his life the only reason i know he was born here is because the statue you pass all this on charl street right now we're just charl's and he talked about the frog pond boston he did in the boston common yeah what a show you know you have never taken food off my plate when we've been out i noticed that i think that is totally uh you've i haven't seen a lot of textures want to know what happens if somebody takes food off your plate chin i think they're dead to me is what they are this is not a reciprocal kind of enjoy your show we can't wait to hear the chat yeah i can't even go back to my show because they all agree with you now i don't i'm whatever yeah two layers nice see you jerk sorry and the show margarita bye see you jared we'll be listening that's great to another edition of boston public radio thank you jared keep up with this 24/7 wave of our podcast or check out our tick-tock page we actually have a new one at boston public radio two hundred tomorrow we live at the boston public library with live music friday courtesy of the berkeley music inclusion ensemble we'll hear from songwriter and disability rights advocate like gaylin lee also with this one all before she is really talented yeah she is really talented also with us lila hampton and linda starks walker from the gbh news documentary about bussing we're going to talk with dr katherine gurgen bernett from boston medical center about medical stuff of course and boston global business columnist surely young about business stuff probably about business stuff that would be correct yeah she did a great another great piece about black ceos and presidents great and unfortunate numbers it's great uh we want to thank our crew zoey matthews aden conley the cole garcia handle loss our engineer john the clob parker our director producer jenny bologna a jara's boat uh jaren broughton show it the culture show liz chaney today it's going to start right after the two o'clock news right here on eighty nine seven gbh i'm marjorie egan oh i'm supposed to say i'm jim brolly yes i'm jim brolly thank you for tuning in hope you have a great day and hope i can tune in again tomorrow bye (upbeat music) [BLANK_AUDIO]