Boston Public Radio Podcast
Best Of BPR 9/25: The Manosphere 4 Trump & What The Manta Ray Knows
Media maven and local woman Sue O’Connell has thoughts on Donald Trump and JD Vance courting the young man vote through a new generation of "dude" influencers like Logan Paul and Adin Ross. Then, naturalist Sy Montgomery tells us of her recent trip to Ecuador diving with giant oceanic manta rays. And, we get her take on news a little closer to home – Margery’s favorite story of the week, the bulls on the loose in North Attleboro.
- Broadcast on:
- 25 Sep 2024
- Audio Format:
- other
Support for Boston Public Radio comes from the Peabody Essex Museum, presenting Conjuring the Spirit World, Art, Magic, and Mediums. On view this fall. For tickets and more information you can visit pem.org/spiritworld. And the Museum of Science with Survival of the Slowest, a new live animal exhibit that demonstrates evolution down the path less traveled. I'm Jim Brody and I'm Marjorie Egan. This is the best of Boston Public Radio, a new daily podcast from GBH, featuring our favorite conversations from our three hour radio show in under 40 minutes. Don't panic. If you love filling your phone with episodes of our full show podcast, you can still find it anywhere you get your podcast or just catch us live on 89/7 GBH starting at 11 o'clock. Today on the podcast, media may have been a local woman, Sue O'Connell, with thoughts on Donald Trump and JD Vance courting the young male vote through a new generation of so-called dude influencers like Logan Paul. And natural assignment, Gomry, tells of a recent trip to Ecuador to dive with the giant oceanic manta rays. Plus we're going to take our news a little closer to home. My favorite story of the week, The Bulls on the Loose in North Adelborough. And here's the show. ♪♪♪ Hello Sue O'Connell. Good day to you. Good day. Good day. Good day. Good day. Okay. So before we ask you what you think of Ellen DeGeneres' striking back, so-called Mean Old and Gay, the triple crown, she puts it. I love it. A little clip from the trailer of her second and last Netflix or final, apparently, necklace comedy special four-year approval it premiered last night talking about a woman in the industry. Here it is. Yeah. Men can get away with acting out things that aren't actually happening and not look crazy somehow. A man in the middle of nowhere and for no reason can practice an imaginary gold swing. Oh, no, I'm not lying, I'm just waiting for my latte, you go ahead. Men will jump up and see if they can slap the top of a doorframe. I've never had that urge. It's pretty funny. Yeah. What'd you think of it and why is she calling this the Mean Old and Gay, the Triple Crown? Yeah, it was pretty funny. I mean, you forget that Ellen DeGeneres was a very solid sort of B, middle of the road comedian stand-up comic before her first shows. She was on Carson, she was generally everyone just liked her. She was funny enough, she wasn't over the line, she didn't deal with issues. She was like Seinfeld is in that observations of things that you can all relate to regardless of who you are, what age you are. And then of course as everyone knows her story, she had a sitcom, she came out, she rightly says got kicked out of the entertainment business for Being Gay, had a quick sitcom and then came back as the be kind to everyone talk show host, daytime talk show host, had a huge following and then of course during COVID lockdown time her staff said that it was a hostile work environment and since her name was on the show everyone blamed her for the hostile work environment. And I feel, and I felt at the time, but you know it was COVID times and we had other concerns, but I felt like I didn't defend her enough during that period, during the hostile work environment crisis. Why would you defend her? Do you know? Yeah, because... What do we know if she was... Well then to blame for it? She's to blame because she's the executive producer like we once talked about Lizzo not long ago with the lawsuits that are against her. You have these people who are not, have not gone to business school, they have not been trained to be managers, they have not, and they don't train themselves because they have other things they're doing and then suddenly they have staffs and they, you know, she... That's the defense? No, no, I'm getting there. Oh, sorry. She, you know, she said in this comedy special she was, you know, chasing them, they had a complete series long game of tag where she would chase her employees down the hallway and some of them were scared of snakes so she would rig it so snakes would drop out on the conference table and she said I know it sounds like a horrible boss, right? You know, but what I felt like... I feel like I tried that. That would be a good idea. That would be a good idea. I'm scared, thanks actually. What I think I didn't defend her enough on is that, and this is one of those, what about is it moments, there... I worked in the industry at the same time that she worked in the industry coming up, there are horrible men, and I'm not talking about like Harvey Weinstein cut, just basically horrible men who have talk shows, who have TV shows, who treat their staff terribly and they are lionized, and because she said, be kind to each other, right? The level of harm... People are plotting first. It was true. I think Bill O'Reilly mentioned that. Right. It was a nasty guy. She's held to a different standard than everyone else, and I just think it's unfair. Let me say the exact same thing I said 30 seconds ago. Is that a defense that men are cruel to their workers and get away with it? No, I don't think that the, I think the allegations against her were serious for the few people that were involved, and I think part of it was it was in the #MeToo movement, COVID was happening, there were reckonings happening everywhere, but she probably had one of the better sets of treating people in Hollywood yet because she had said, be kind to each other at the end of every show, as she says, and because she's a woman, suddenly everyone challenged her. Oh, you know, Jim, come on. Men can be a holes for decades and get away with it. I agree. No, but that's your message. Well, let me be clear. I totally agree with that. A woman is not liked. See you later. Yep. I mean, there's this huge double standard. She says, I mean, look at the two of us. You know what I mean? Look at the two of us. No, let's talk. She says in the show, which is funny, you know, first time I got run out of the entertainment business, it was because I was gay, because there are no gay people in Hollywood. And then she said the second time was because I was mean, because there are no mean people. You know, I just think that she has been targeted. When did she come out? I can't remember. She had a hit show. She came out, and the sponsors dropped her. They did? Yeah, the show actually got bad. I mean, just to be fair here, it went from being a very funny show to a mediocre show. And the ratings just went to the toilet. She was targeted by people like Jerry Falwell calling her Ellen to generate, she says like I never heard that before. And then she was out of the business and couldn't get hired anywhere. So she has been through this in a way that, you know, Dave Chappelle hasn't gone through. And in a way that, you know, a number of other male comics and male TV show hosts who have done much worse things, she has paid a higher price for it. And I'm sorry I didn't stand up for more in the first place. You don't know her, do you? No, I met her once. Okay. Once. All right, so that's who, and the special is out. Yeah, it's on Netflix. It's a nice middle of the road. You know, it's not an issues thing. She does make fun of her situation. But you can watch it with your family, Jim. Okay, so here's another woman. Let's see if you think she's being treated unfairly. Here is a video post that you may remember, Melania Trump, you remember her? She was the first lady. Maybe the, well, who knows, there should be the first lady if he's elected again. She put out a video, we'll let you hear the sound, which I thought was odd, not so much for content, but timing. And apparently it's also because she has a memoir coming out in early October. Here's a little sound from Melania Trump. Why do I stand proudly behind my nude modeling work? The more pressing question is, why has the media chosen to scrutinize my celebration of the human forum in a fashion photo shoot? Excellent question. We should honor our bodies and embrace the timeless tradition of using art as a power for means. Thank you. So the question for me is, I mean, it's fine if she's proud of her nude modeling career. But I'm totally wither and we're all to, you know, prudish in the society. Anyway, the question is, why when your husband is six weeks away from an election, which would make him the president of the United States, do you start talking about how proud you are of your nude modeling? I have, I'll answer that, but first I want to ask you a question. Please. Nobody questioned her being a nude model. It was barely a story the first time around, right? It was a few people made an issue of it saying like, wow, if Michelle Obama had been a nude model, you would never hear the end of it. If any other person's wife had been a nude model, no one made fun of it. People defended her right to do it. Yes, it was, it was, you know, she was a model. She was nude. What's the big deal, you know? And the Republicans ignored it, which was fine. So she is making this up that the media was looking into her forum that she was doing. It's very good. One part of it is she just doesn't like Donald Trump, but I don't think she really cares whether he gets elected or not. Do you think that it is screw him? I think if she doesn't care about him, I think it's probably about the book too. Yeah, it's to promote the book. She doesn't care if he gets elected or not. And she's living her her best life regardless of whether he, he becomes our, our president. So I read last night that she simply took Michelle Obama's book and put her name on it. Yeah. Is that true? She is. It's a number of first ladies. She's a British family. You're going to hear from Hillary Clinton. Yeah. I mean, she's just, she's just living her best life without, she doesn't care about us. She doesn't care about Donald Trump. She doesn't care. Well, if people have forgotten, she plagiarized Michelle Obama's speech at the convention. When she was announcing her husband's hand is saying, I do, I do agree with her though about the Christmas, you know, her statement about effing Christmas and who cares about Christmas ornaments that was recorded by her assistant and leaked around the White House Christmas decorations. But I remember the Christmas decorations. They were those really. They were hideous. She was black and really dark. Yeah. She doesn't care about Christmas. She doesn't care about Christmas. I don't think she might, she probably should have put herself on the same plane though as Michelangelo's David. You know, obviously. And that video she does. Yeah. Have you seen nude photos? I would support that. No, she, she looks. She's a beautiful woman. She's got a beautiful body, but I just don't think it's quite the same kind of level of art. Yeah. Okay. So speaking of her husband. Well, we're going to put Melania's nude photos up at the website and you can all decide at all. So one of the things that Trump and Vance have been doing is trying to appeal to young male voters who historically are not voters. They're eligible voters. And they're doing it. And this is, where was the story by the way? It was actually pretty good one. I think it was NPR. It was NPR actually, because I heard it on the air and then read it about how they're going to sort of the bro podcast world, which I think is brilliant actually if they vote. Here's a little sound with Trump with Logan Paul on his podcast talking about whether he believes in aliens, just one of the many topics in this hour long interview. Here it is. I met with pilots, like beautiful Tom Cruise, but taller, handsome, perfect people, sir. There was something there that was round in form and going like four times faster than my super jet fighter plane. And I look at these guys and they really mean it. And am I a believer? No, I probably can't say I am. I think it's brilliant. Again, it's a risky strategy because you don't know if they're going to vote. But it's the only strategy. I mean, both of these candidacies, let's just take the crazy how he's a nut job off the table and the policy issues, everything off the table. This entire race is going to be a race of inches for both Harris and Trump. And they have to absolutely have every single one of their base come out to vote. And then all of the satellite constituencies that each of them have, have to come out to vote. So, you know, Kamala Harris was doing the coconut tree and she was doing brat summer. Donald Trump is doing these bro podcasts and influencers. As you mentioned, Jim, mathematically, they're not a good category to count on to come out to vote. But again, every single inch that they can make in any of their constituencies to get them out to vote. The problem Trump also has is that according to reports, his campaign doesn't have as many people on the ground in the swing states as they should in order to get the vote out. Of course, voting is starting now. And that's a concern that they have on the top line. Also like yesterday, he gave a speech and he said, "Please go out and do your early voting." And then seconds later, he talked about how bad early voting was. So it's kind of like paddling a ship with a hole in it. But this is a strategy that he should be employing. So speaking of the forums that he and Vance have chosen to go to, I think all three of us on the air have been critical of Kamala Harris's unavailability to do mainstream press interviews. And tonight I just read this morning, she's doing her first one-on-one, because remember the prior interview was with Tim Walz, her first one-on-one with a national person. Stephanie Rule. Stephanie Rule on MSNBC, and I have to say to say that I do not get this, there is not one person watching this interview tonight who is not voting for Kamala Harris. However, I'll say this about one of the topics, right, what's one of the areas that the Harris campaign has weak on according to voters is the economy, right, and inflation. Stephanie Rule is an expert on the economy and inflation. And even though Stephanie, I think it's clear to say in MSNBC, leans toward Harris, Stephanie will be hard on Harris regarding how she answers questions. So who's watching the show? Well, no one watches anything. It'll be the clips. Who's going to watch the clips from MSNBC? They'll push them out. Why is she not just doing, I mean, Vance Jones might really agree with you. I think she should be doing interviews. More interviews sitting down. But this, I think this will be the first step around the issues that she's trying to make sure she's communicating to the voters. The reason I don't understand the role, if you have something that you absolutely cannot answer and you're a candidate, you attempt to hide out, I don't care if it's city council or president, they're only too tough, in my opinion, they're only two tough questions for Kamala Harris. What's your plan for the economy and the question you didn't answer at the debate, are we better off than we were four years ago? I would assume she and her staff have a pretty good answer. Now, and secondly, she's going to be asked to have flip-flopping on things like fracking, she's got to come up with an answer if she wants to win Pennsylvania. She said her values are the same, et cetera. So you meet with your staff, you resolve those things, and then you go do every damn interview, and Vance Jones made a wonderful point last night, if you don't know, Vance Jones, former Obama guy he's on CNN, got $100 million from, what's his face, Jeff Bezos to go do, good things. He says when talking about how she's doing poorly, and he didn't say there was untrue the polls, she's not doing as well as she needs to do with young black men, in fact her support in the black community, which is incredible to me, is about ten points lower than Joe Biden. That happens to be a white guy, and it's because of the young black men, he said you should go do a tour of black barbershops, and she doesn't mean a thousand of them, go to five black barbershops around the country, talk to the guys, let people see you in that environment. This hideout strategy, if she had a five or eight point lead and you're trying to protect it is one thing, can you explain it to me? No, I'm just thinking as you're talking, because if I were her campaign manager, I'm trying to identify pockets that I know I can get a higher turnout rate on, and I can use my energy to get there and do it, so there may be, and I don't know this, I've not talked to anybody on any of the campaigns about this, but there may be a strategy that she thinks she can't get those young black folks, so don't waste your time doing it, and spend the time in Michigan maybe, getting Arab American voters, getting American Middle Eastern descent voters, making sure that you get all the women that will vote for you out. Taking advantage, this is the hard part I think our campaign has, of all the Republicans, including the Chinese, who have endorsed her, plus all of the hard, hawk military people who have endorsed her, and see if you can get any of those independents or Republicans who don't want to vote for Trump to not just stay at home, but to actually vote for you. So I imagine there's a big spreadsheet somewhere with probability of turnout, and then also where you, how much time you have. Plus, look, she's got a ton of money, not a lot of time left, but the campaign has a lot of money, we don't know what they might all of a sudden launch that we'll turn this around. We know what I love the place for her. White women, I think, disgraced themselves by voting for him in 2016, again in 2020. Well, Hillary Clinton recently said in a podcast, she was told white women will let you down, and white women let Hillary Clinton down. Black women never seemed to get fooled, and good for them, for sticking to it all these years. We're joined now on Zoom by naturalist author Simon Gomry. Her forthcoming book is What the Chicken Knows, a new appreciation of the world's most familiar bird. We will join psi, Marjorie and I will, we'll join psi in conversation at the arts at the armory. In Somerville, that's on November 6th, it's a day after the election, in celebration of the book's launch, information and tickets available at thewillburr.com/armory, we're really looking forward to it. It's great to see you. Oh, man, I can't believe you all were doing that for me. I know. We can't believe you're doing it with us, we are so psyched. Yeah, we are very happy to be doing it. So tell us about going to Ecuador and swimming with these giant, how do you pronounce it Mantis? Mantis, yeah. Yeah. Manta rays. Yeah. Oh my gosh, I've been wanting to do this for, we figured this out, like I've been wanting to do this for eight years, but various things, including COVID, intervened. These animals are humongous. They can stretch 26 feet from wing tip to wing tip, and they make birds look awkward because they have no bones, they just have cartilage. They look like they are flying like angels through not the heavens, but the sea. And I got to work with Michelle Guerrero, this Ecuadorian researcher, who discovered the largest aggregation of these giant oceanic manta rays in the world back in 1996. And they're off this remote island, an hour and 15 minutes or so, by punishing boat ride from the mainland called Ila de la Plata. And they only come during this short period of about four weeks in August and September. And no one really knows much about these huge plankton eating relatives of sharks, but they're smart. They live like 70 years, and they're curious, and they will come up to you and look you in the eye. It's the most amazing thing. They'll even come to divers when they are injured by a hook, or they're caught in fishing gear. And Michelle has had this happen to him, they'll come up to him and essentially ask for help. And he will just angle them, and then off they will go, released from the burden, but then they'll circle around to see him again, as if to say thank you. And so I'm working on this book. It was the toughest diving I've ever done, and I haven't even done that much diving. I've done maybe, you know, 20 dives most, most of which were 10 years ago. But this was in like this fire hose current. It's the humbled current that comes up from Antarctica, cold, fast current, laden with delicious plankton that everyone eats. But you're like swimming in this fire hose of soup, basically live animals who are many of them are really tiny, so it all looks like you're seeing everything like through a mirror darkly or through some kind of mist, and so we'd be hanging on to these rocks underwater at like, I don't know, 45, 50 feet, although we dove deeper than that. You're clinking onto the rocks so that you won't be swept away. And waiting, waiting, waiting to see if the mantas come. And you look up, and all of a sudden there's this like sludge above you. And it's somebody who's like 15, 16, 20 feet or more across, and they come swooping toward you like some alien spaceship. And they care about you, they're interested in you, and they'll circle round and they'll get another look again, and one, one manta stuck with us for an entire almost hour long drive. Wow. Just looking at us as he circled past and checked us at, it was amazing. So what we were doing with Michelle Guerrera and mantis Ecuador, and these two wonderful researchers who joined us from Costa Rica, was, he's trying to get photographs, close photographs of all of them so that they can tell individuals they're tagging them so that you can follow and find out where do they go, you know? What do they do? How deep do they dive? He's watching them get cleaned by all these cleaner fishes, which is why they go there for that period. They go there like to the spot to get somebody to eat all your parasites. Oh, God, I know, I wish I could go. Maybe I'd look as good as you, never, never, but anyway. You're waiting thinking, you know, can you do my nails for me or something? Anyway, and we take tissue samples as well. I mean, I basically was just watching and trying not to drown, but we worked with Ashley too of my good friends from Marshfield are helping me with a dev and Patrick Joyce and Patrick is a photographer and he was helping Carolina get pictures of these individuals and try to find out, you know, where do they go and what do they do? And you know, they're pretty sure that they come here to get cleaned by these cleaner fish, but where do they go from there? And why do they even leave? You know, do they go? Are we going to see video of this at some point? I hope. Are we? Yeah, I sent you guys some. I sent some via Zoe, and I'll send it again after this, and you'll see me spazzing out because I'm just trying to hold onto the rock. That's what I have a bunch of questions for you. I don't, all the years we've known you. I don't think I've ever asked you this question. Were you scared? No. Why? I wasn't scared of that. No, but you're not an experienced diver, even though you've had 20 more dives that I have, you're diving in these incredibly difficult conditions, not to mention having, I just looked at up 7,000 pound animals swimming around you. Why were you not scared? Well, they're plankton eaters, they're not going to bother me. And happily, you know, I was with my friends, and I knew that no one wanted me to drown because who was going to write the book? Exactly. Okay, here's my next thing is you told the story, you actually, we spoke on the phone a few weeks ago, and before you went, you told the story about them coming to humans for help, how do they know to come to a human for help, unless they had a prior experience in which they were either entangled or in danger in some fashion, what's in them that causes them to know that that human thing will provide assistance to them? I don't know, but they do live a long time, they can live to 70. They learn, you know, that gives you an opportunity to learn stuff, and they are curious enough that they have watched human divers, and they may have seen, you know, human divers helping another animal. So who knows, I mean whales too are known to do this. Oh, and that's the other thing you guys, oh my God, out there, you're down, when I send you the video, you'll have to turn up the sound because besides my own Darth Vader breathing, you can hear whales singing, there's all these humpback whales down there, and you don't see them, you see them above, when you're on the, when you're on the punishing trip across the waves going bam, bam, bam for an hour and 15 minutes, and these big pickles are jumping out of the water, and those are the humpback whales. And then when you stop your boat, you know, when you get out of the first dive and you have to off guess so that all the nitrogen doesn't mess up your blood, who comes to see you, but all these green sea turtles, it's just the most magical experience. And while you're clinging onto the rock, and you're not seeing mantas, you're looking around you, and you're seeing all this amazing life from, you know, both spotted and green morays, who you've just got to be careful, you don't upset them because they have a lot of backward pointing teeth, and if you put your hand in their hole, they might not like that. Oh, no. But there's beautiful butterfly fishes, and you see the, I'll send you a picture of one of the mantas being trailed by this cloud of yellow butterfly fish that, you know, they're doing hair and makeup basically, they're cleaning this, this manta of all of its parasites. They even go in your gills and will go inside to get rid of those pesky parasites that get in your gills, and we all know how uncomfortable that can be. You know, I had never seen, other than being, I didn't even heard of giant mantas until you and I spoke before you left for Ecuador, and I looked them up, I looked them up again last night. He is. For you haven't seen them, not only are they, are they incredibly huge, the closest I could describe, I don't know if you thought this comparison was fair, for people who've seen photographs of stealth bombers from below, they look like an animal version of a stealth bomber and they actually don't look much smaller than us, that you're nodding in agreement. No, you're right, I mean, I've heard people say they look like an alien spaceship about the plane. They do, they're incredible. They really do, and they have these funny, syphallic fins that stick out of their heads. You don't expect to have fins coming out of your head to start with, but then at the base of the syphallic fins is when their eyes are, and their gills are on their belly, and we found, we found a pregnant one swimming around and checking us out. And guess where their pregnancy shows? Not in their belly, like us, but if it was us, the small of their back. Oh my god. So they're just put together in this incredible way that you look at them and you realize, you know, anything is possible. Why does it feel, well, you're incredible, but what does it feel? You're there, you're underwater, the currents like it is, and all of a sudden, one of these six to seven thousand pound, incredibly beautiful creatures appears. And then another one, can you describe what that moment is like, Simon Comrey? You know what I reckon, I think it must be like, you know, when you read the passages in the Old Testament and the New Testament when an angel shows up, and often that's the way that people feel, they describe it as afraid, but that's kind of not really the right word. It's just awe, it's total awe that you can be in this place at this time with this creature. It's such an amazing privilege, and you're in their world, and they're not only letting you be there, but they're interested in you. And that you merit their interest. It's as if, you know, when an angel came down, I was interested in having a conversation with you. You know, before Marjorie moves to the next topic, Mike and Boston just texted, are you going to read it? Go ahead. I didn't know you'd seen it go ahead. Why can't we all have the joy in our work that Simon Comrey seems to have? I couldn't agree with that. Yeah, and the person to, to his textures above Karen and Whitensville says, I love size excitement about everything she talks about. We should all find something that gives us as much passion as happiness as Si finds in the world. How about that? It's beautiful. It's beautiful. It's true. So, Si, I have been waiting all week to talk to you about this bull stampede down in North Allegro. Turned on the news that night, or I think I actually saw it online. There was a rodeo at the Emerald Square Mall and eight bulls escaped, went right through a metal fence and began running at quite a gallop, or maybe a canter anyway, right toward route one. And apparently some of them crossed route one. So what are we to make of this? You are the animal expert. They couldn't get away from the rodeo fast enough, and they were like, they don't like this. They do not like the rodeo. They normally, normally, bulls don't walk around bucking all the time. The bucking, because they don't like it, they have a cinch on their belly. They're bred to be exceptionally over sensitive to the feeling of being squeezed and touched and spurred. I mean, that's enough to make me buck to start with. But these guys, they're all super, super sensitive to that, because rodeo wants them to buck. And they obviously, they knew what was going on. This was not their first rodeo. And so they just broke out, and I loved watching it too. I loved seeing their powers surging out with a great big horns. And I loved it. I mean, right away they caught one, but then they caught everybody else a little bit later. And I think it was just either yesterday or the day before they finally caught the last one who was at a mall. Yeah, but they were traveling in a pack, so that's what they usually do, bulls. Well, cows, all the bovines are herd animals, and they generally like being together. And that's a good strategy if you are a hoofed animal, hooves are evidence that someone is trying to eat you, and hooves let you run away from them faster. So we should not like all those shows about the bucking Bronco and the rodeo as an outwast. What was that? I think we should all enjoy the mechanical bulls that you can get on. And that's pretty fun to watch, and you're not making somebody so uncomfortable or terrified or in pain that they will do anything to make this stop. So I welcome home. We can't wait to talk more, and we can't wait till November when we see you in person in the summer. Thanks so much for your time. Thank you, Cy. Thanks for listening to the Best of Boston Public Radio podcasts from GBH. Our crew is Zoe Matthews, Aiden Conley, Nicole Garcia, Hannah Lawson, our engineer is John the Claw Parker. Our executive producer is Jamie Bologna. You want to hear the full show? Download our full show podcast, or tune in to 89/7 GBH, 11 to 2 each weekday. Today's episode was produced by Zoe Matthews. (upbeat music)