Boston Public Radio Podcast

BPR Full Show 9/24: Going Bananas

We opened the lines to discuss whether kids should be in contact sports that lead to injuries. NBC Sports Boston anchor/reporter Trenni Casey discussed the WNBA awardsAmerican Experience executive producer Cameo George and Frontline executive producer Raney Aronson-Rath discussed their two films in the works on the Vice Presidential candidates.Marie St. Fleur discussed how Haitian immigrants are woven into the fabric of America, having fought in the Revolutionary War. She'll contextualize the impacts of recent anti-immigrant and anti-Haitian sentiment.CNN's John King on the latest national political headlinesWe ended the show talking about self check-out vs. going to a cashier

Broadcast on:: 24 Sep 2024
Audio Format:: other

Support for Boston Public Radio comes from the Peabody Essex Museum, presenting Conjuring the Spirit World, Art, Magic, and Mediums. On view this fall. For tickets and more information, you can visit pem.org/spiritworld. [MUSIC] Hey, it's you, Bradley, I am Marjorie Eakin. You're listening to Boston for the Radio 89/7 GBH. We are broadcasting live from the Boston Public Library as we do every Tuesday, Wednesday, and Friday, and we are streaming at youtube.com/GBHNews. You did not need tickets, Jim. Oh my god, don't do this again. The banana. In any case, we're starting today's show in Wuburn, where Boston 25 is reporting, a brawl took place at a popcorn football game. Not between the kids, by the way, but started by adults from the opposing team from Boston, who apparently rushed onto the field and started going after the players, 12 and 13-year-olds. So it's just a reality of our full football culture. Our parents are a little too involved in their kids sports answers. Yes, and while we're at it, why are kids under 14 playing tackle football at all? The Concussion Legacy Foundation, which we talk about a lot, recommends against it. With the backing of one of the great football players of all time, Brett Favre, here's their latest ad with Brett Favre. Here he is. I can be fighting depression, struggling to keep my thoughts straight. I can become violent, even towards my own children. When I'm your age, what will matter to me is not my youth football career, but that I like you, I'm a great pair, and I can provide for my family. So please, keep me out of tackle football until I'm 14. And remember, this all comes against the backdrop of the quarterback for the Miami Dolphins, suffering his fourth concussion a week or two ago in the football field. Should we tone it down a notch, the parents and contact for kids when they're young, eight, seven, seven, three, zero, one, eighty, nine, seven, can I take my position? Quite simply, ban the parents and ban the contact. I mean, it's really, can you believe that those parents come down and start fighting with the kids? I mean, should they not be banned from every single football game, forever? I mean, really? Well, the police chief out there in Wooper, and I guess he's saying they're waiting for someone to press charges, but no charges have been pressed. I'll press charges. But it's a little much for the parents to start attacking the 12-year-olds, I would say. Lucy, brawls between parents, unfortunately. You sometimes see brawls between the kids, not usually the parents attacking the kids when they're that young. There was a dead guy not too long ago, that guy, that hockey game, remember? That was a while ago, I remember that was a horrible situation when the parents, one father attacked the other father in the parking lot and killed him. But anyway, I don't know why, you know, we talk about this quite a bit, why anybody would let a kid, that young play football, because, you know, they've basically documented all this now, that these repeated hits, you know, this great piece, this is a while ago too, this guy that was the subject of the movie, a milieu of the guy, how do you pronounce his name? I don't know how to pronounce it. The guy in the movie concussion. Yes, he was in the movie concussion. And he talks about how, if you were to take a child who plays football and has been subjected, if you had this child undergo advanced, radiological, and neurocognitive studies, during the season and several months after the season, you could see evidence, in many cases, of brain damage at the cellular level, without even having had a concussion. Correct. It's repeated hits. So I don't know why you want to start your kid having repeated hits, like at nine years old. Well, can you answer that question, that you have a rhetorical question? Why would any parent allow a kid younger, I think the 14 years is what the concussion legacy foundation has written? Yes, yes. Explaining me why any parent would say, I want my kid to have, potentially, have a concussion, get hit in the head playing, by the way, it's not just football, it's ice hockey, it's headers and soccer. Did you tell us, Jamie, that headers or Zoe did, they're prohibited and Massachusetts until your ex-number of years old, whatever it is, so at least they've moved there. What kind of parent says that's okay? Well, I think people, the NFL, you know, people love to watch football in America, it's like the American sport. They're kids not going to the NFL. I know that, but I think a lot of people really think their kid's going to get a heads up, no pun intended, by starting early, starting at nine or ten or eleven years old. The thing with football is you can't really be a little pipsqueak and play football most of your life, so it seems to me you want to wait until the kid at least grows enough to know whether he's got a chance at football, even in high school, never mind in college or going out of the NFL. So I think that's it. I also think people don't know and they think this is a become more of these culture, these culture war issues where you know it's all of them. Do you think the parent doesn't know that their kid's health is at risk? I think that some parents do not know that. That is pathetic. Well, you always think people know more than they know, Jim, I think that they probably don't know. But anyway, it's very popular. It's very popular. Starting now, people are driving all over Massachusetts, taking their kids to Pee Wee or pop Warner football games, and you know, I had a brief experience with pop Warner with my son and I couldn't believe at the time, we didn't last long by the way, that these coaches, they act like they are at Gillette Stadium. You know, they got these nights. Can you say you couldn't have a drink or something when there's a hot thing? Yeah, the steam was coming out of his years, you could say it was really, really hot and it was an august and they were practicing and the coach said he had to wait to get a drink and that was it for me. And also, they practice much too much. Can I tell another story, I'll give the number and then I'm going to tell one more. 877-301-8970, we're talking mostly about youth football, but you can also add in soccer and hockey, although I think youth football is the one I think people are most afraid of at this particular juncture. When is tackle, I should say? By the way, almost all the texts are about bananas. That's fine, but it text about bananas and text about what we're talking about now. This is 10 years old, but this is so symptomatic of what's wrong, not just with kids having playing tackle football, but with coaches in this case, not just parents. Remember this thing? It was in the New York Times, by the way, Southbridge in Massachusetts played the 10 Tascua Braves. Some of the kids were as young as 10. The final score was a mere 52 to nothing. The kids on the zero side of that, a half dozen of them. These are 10 and 11-year-olds, went to the hospital with concussions and missed school, and here's what the coach of the winning team said, "My team is not dirty." This is after the other kids were all getting concussions. All the issues were on their side of the field. This is a football game, not a hallmark event. This is a guy coaching 10 and 11-year-old kids. I mean what I said, by the way, anytime a parent misbehaves at a kid's sporting event, they should be banned for life from any kid's sporting event, and secondly, the MIA could do it or the legislature could do it, just outright ban tackle football for kids under 14. By the way, it doesn't mean they can't play football. They play flag football, which, by the way, is about to be introduced into the Olympics or something. So it's a serious sport, and then when they're of a certain age, if their parents are fine with having their head clunked all the time, then they can play tackle football. 877-301-8978. Here's Steve from Norwood. "I played popcorn on my high school football team and coached it, but after watching the film concussion, which we just mentioned, I cannot watch anymore. It's like watching gladiators and kind of playing like the game." He says we should be playing flag football, which you just mentioned. Dave in the car, you were first on the football hour. What do you think? I think the problem is that I believe the NFL has done a masterful job, making the focus just on concussions, when the problem is the repeated... You're totally right. ...repeded hit. Totally right. And because they make it only by everything's concussion protocol, I'll look at the great job they're doing. They took them out of the game. He's in concussion protocol. They've totally taken away what the issue is, and I think parents aren't understanding that because if they didn't read that report or even see the movie, they're not aware of it. And by the way, just to be clear, you mentioned, and Marjorie mentioned, there's a cumulative impact of sub-concussive hits to the head. Which results in irreversible brain damage. Yeah, and by the way, you're totally right about the concussion thing, Dave, but even the concussion itself, it appears...we're going to discuss that with Trinity Casey in about 20 minutes. It appears that the quarterback for the dolphins is going to return to football, pro-football at some point. What message does that send the kid watching him play when the announcer said, despite having four concussions in five years or whatever it is, he's returning triumphantly to the football field. It basically says, "You too can do what to it did." But across the board, the NFL is really a full and short of the euphemism. Dave, that was a great call. Thanks for making it. 877-301-897. Can I also quote...I know this aggravates people because they idolize them. I said this the other day, "When...I don't remember if it was Junior's say-out, dying or some horrible outcome of someone who had CTA based on concussions early in their football life. Tom Brady, who was then the greatest quarterback ever, I guess he still is, but was then playing, was asked about his kid playing football and his response was something like, "Whatever he decides to do, I'll support." No, not even a mandatory, "We'll sit down, we'll tell him what the risks are," etc., etc. Another example of sending in my opinion exactly the wrong message to parents. And by the way, you're right. There is a lot of this...this wannabeism that my kid is the kid who's going to go to the pros. My kid is going to be the star and the vast majority needless to say, "Aren't that kid." Here's Melissa and Newton. There also needs to be attention to how for-profit athletic clubs whip up parents about sports. I've seen parents dismiss scientific evidence that playing an artificial turf has increased rates of injuries, including concussion and heat stroke because they've been assured by the coaches that it is safe. Let's do this one. When my son was 11, he wanted to go out for football. He was not even five feet tall and skinny. So I let him go to a summer week long camp at the school. They used him as a football. He came home every day with these hilarious stories about how he was basically a rag doll they just had fun with and that was the end of his football career. It stopped at an early age. Walter from Swamscott, thank you for calling. Hello, Walter. Good morning. Hi. Hello. Let me quickly profile my situation. I play football at the varsity level all the way to college. In graduate school, I coach Pop Warner, so I understand what these kids are trying to do. I would have to say at this juncture, with all the medical information that has come out, ten years ago, I would have been done the hall the kids should play. Where I am now, it's like, whoa, we got to reassess this. Yeah. I'm glad. I'm glad because lots of times people don't reassess. What do you think now? No kids under 14? That's a great place to start. I would like to see if we could develop better equipment. The biggest problem was when I grew up, I was taught to tackle with the hidden front, stick your nose right where the ball is, flush the fumble, and that's what gives you the big bangs. It's not so much the hit at the front of the helmet, because that ricochet through the padding of the helmet. It's when you get hit in the ear hole of the helmet that goes right to your temple and rings the bell. And let me just say, this notion about safety, you know, better helmets, whatever, the helmet that to, and I'm not being disrespectful, I just can never pronounce his last name, was wearing was a helmet that had been approved by both the NFL Players Union and the NFL as the safest helmet there was, obviously not safe enough, and there's one player on the defense of the Patriots that wears that additional helmet thing that is optional, that allegedly provides extra protection, but one, I don't know if that's true, but in addition to that being the issue, notice that if there are 53 players on the Patriots, my understanding is 52 of them decided not to wear it because the league has this toxic masculinity thing that makes it, I guess, inappropriate. Walter, thanks for your sharing your experience. You know, here's the text, I think, really gets a lot of what's going on here. It's the sports arm race, if you don't start playing travel leagues as an infant, these days there's no chance to make the high school team, people take their kids to go to the pros and squeeze out many fun leagues that actually teach sportsmanship, I think there is a lot of that going on that, I mean, kids start playing soccer, like at four or five years old. How about pay preparers of kids that play ice hockey? They said they got a drive to rinks at four in five o'clock in the morning, here's John from Worcester, which is a variation on what you just said there. These sports are expensive in year round, now parents invest too much time money in these games, along with their unrealistic expectations, their 11 and 12 year old will get a college scholarship, they're good enough. That's why violence at kids sporting events is on their eyes. Parents expect too much from their kids and these programs, and if something goes wrong, they lash out. That is perfect. Sean, thank you for sending it. My 13 year old daughter plays tackle rugby. The sport makes a concerted effort to teach kids safe tackling, low and around the legs, staffs have no tolerance policy, any safe tackles result in layers being immediately benched. It's still a contact sports, it comes with risk, but it's a top down approach to safety, it sets an expectation for everyone involved, Greg from Nadek. By the way, we're going to discuss, as I said, this with Trenny, but I read a quote from Tua, the concussed quarterback for the Dolphins, who said he's been taught that the safe thing to do, particularly when you've had prior concussions, is the slide. Right. When you see an opposing. He knew what he's supposed to do, yet he stuck his head right into the gut of the defensive place. It's just gruesome. Andrew Plymouth, what do you think, Ann? Hi, first time, mom, hi. Thank you. Really, really excited to be on the phone with you. We're glad to have you. I thank you, Jim. I have a nine year old who has played flag football and has asked me for many years to sign him up for counsel. I have been super, super hesitant because I tried to state an informed parent and I am informed about concussions and what it needs to play happily. I am beaconing by the day, but I must say that this segment that you've been talking about since the beginning of the season has really impacted my discipline. And after listening to Marjorie, as I often do, I am going to reconsider that decision and try to speak to my other mom friends who were, you know, working to sign them up in the summer. It starts summer with the boot camp and the picnic and they are doing amazing things with the football program. Nowadays, I must say, I have many mom friends who have football players that play basketball, starting at the sophomore, and how much they are amazing, the equipment is amazing, the coaches are amazing, but I feel it's all, there's only so much we can do. An accident still helped happen. I have coached my son and my daughter at baseball team. I have, I presently coached my daughter's basketball team and I shouldn't happen. However, with this castle, I am with more injury on this. Head to head. How is that going to get into like a part of that? That was a great first call. Don't go away. Two things. One, if you want to add to your arsenal of information, go to the Concussion Legacy Foundation's website and you'll have much more stuff to arm you in this thing. It sounds like from your discussions that not only are you having to deal with your kids' desires, but also, I assume your kid is saying, well, my best friends, parents are letting him play tackle football. What do you say to your kid in that circumstance? I say that we take our own chickens as a family. What our family does is our family's business and my husband and I are choosing to raise our children under our own umbrella of ethics and code as we have coded standards, which works for us and our parenting styles. Don't get me wrong, I love football, I love all sports, I support football, I support my family friends, my friends, I support everyone. We got it. I don't know if it's right for my son. And make a second call soon. We thank you for listening in for your first call. An anonymous textor says, yes, it's expensive and yes, it takes a lot of time. Add to that fact that my kid stinks, rarely gets the ball, but we're there every weekend all day. Listen to this from John from Boxford, think about it this way, to the extent that such a large percentage of the American adult male population is kind of a hot mess. Most of them are probably walking around living their lives with undiagnosed low grade traumatic head trauma from youth and high school football. We see it reflected in the violence, the depression, the loneliness, et cetera, and it's very unfortunate. But, on the other hand, says Becky from Matapan, agree with everything you're saying, but you might mention a good NFL story. Last night, Demara Hamlin, the guy who really died on the field. And who tackled Toa. He got his first interception in Monday night, football, how can anyone not love him? I mean, you see the dichotomy coming on. By the way, we got to take a break before we do Sonya from Paxton says I wish American parents would put this kind of energy into pushing scholastic performance as they do with sports. Okay. Marty, I forget my apologies. Do you need tickets to come here? Do you not need any tickets? Do you need to-- But we have a TikTok about it. Do you need to RSVP? Do you have to RSVP? What do we have? Yeah, Nicole put together a TikTok answering all the textures, questions about tickets to the Boston Public Library. How do you go find our TikTok page? That's a good question, Jim. I don't know. Do you know? I just asked Jamie. That's the only reason I don't know. Add Boston Public Radio. You know, just a couple of horror stories. Aaron Hernandez was-- his was diagnosed with CTE after he died. Yeah. He killed one person, was convicted of that, allegedly killed two other people. It was 26, I believe, when he took his own life in prison. And he had accumulated all these injuries over the years to his head. And there's also stories now about high school kids that have this CTE because of the repeated under maybe reported or unknown hits to the head, maybe not even rise in the level of concussion. We don't know that they have CTE because you can't diagnose until you're dead. Just the kids dead. Oh, the kid who lives there-- Yes, the high school kid. Oh, sorry. I'm sorry. Yes. Peter from Ahobith said, I play football for three years of high school. Every year I had a concussion. My senior year I received a concussion so bad I couldn't play. Now as an adult it was super-- I think it was super unsafe because so many students would not report that they had a concussion. Exactly. Or they just went off after a big hit and said nothing. He says, now I'm a nurse, says Peter. It took a long time for me to fix my focusing issues. And I have had chronic concussion syndrome now for several years. That's pretty horrible. Let's go to-- I hope I got the name right. Is it Ani and New Bedford, you're next on Boston Public Radio? Thank you for your call. Hi. Thank you. I'm happy to be here. Thank you. I work in scholar support and I specialize in helping students who are recovering from traumatic brain injury from fourth injury or from epilepsy. And so my job is actually to create plans to assist with memory and mitigate some of the impact from their injuries. So after the fact, as opposed to preventing them before they happen, or do I get that right? That's correct. Yes. Well, do you see kids that have these concussion injuries early in life? I do. So I work primarily with elementary students. Elementary students with concussions? Yes. So it could be from like non-sports related and sometimes sports related. If there's a student who's been playing and they experience a concussion and it impacts their academic performance, then I would work with them. How do you work a talk for a second about what you do and then I want to go back to what you don't do, which is attempt to prevent them. I'm not being critical, obviously, your job is your job. What's the mitigation look like after some of the damage has been done? So primarily, it's removing it, repeated exposure. So like if a student experienced a concussion in the sports event, then perhaps we would work the parents to consider taking them out of that sport. And I know you don't know if every case is different. How often after a kid has had that kind of head injury and you go to the parent and say you should consider taking the kid out, do they take the kid out? It's variable, but a treatment for me can last anywhere from a few months to like ongoing for years. Can I ask you a question? Hold on. There are certainly schools all around the country now and certainly in Massachusetts where if you get a concussion in a game, you have to take the baseline test at the beginning of the year, then if you get a concussion until you pass that baseline test again, which is like speed of identifying, trying and stuff like that, you can't even play again. Is that not yet available in the elementary school or because it seems like it should be kind of taken out of the parents' hands? No, that is available. So that would be true. It's just like weather. So we don't also, we don't like provide these sports, so it's not like a sport that's happening on our campus. It could be like in a club setting. So we have a student who might be on a 504 plan or an IEP plan who is receiving services from us and we will start to see the effects like creep into their academic performance. I just have one last quick question. So back to the parents, after there's been some sort of an injury and you say you should at least consider not having your kid return to that sport, what's the argument that a parent makes when they say, well, we're going to have him continue with the sport in which he was injured? What do they say or she, what do they say? That's a really good question. It is variable. Like you said, it's kind of case-to-case. So if a parent is adamant about keeping their students in that sport, then we will provide every academic sport. But why would they be adamant? It's my question. If your kid's been injured and he's not like Tom Brady, even if you're Tom Brady it's enough. What's a possible, do they give you a reason or just we've made the decision? One reasoning is because of like family history, so there's a lot of familial pride. I got it. This is a sport that I played. Got it. I would love it. It's like a big bombing. We're really glad you called and shared your expertise. Is this today breaking news? Brett Favre. We just played the sound of Brett Favre, who's, for those of you who know, one of the best quarterbacks who are played mostly for the Green Bay Packers. And he has done a video for the Concussion Legacy Foundation. It's pretty impressive. Jamie just shared with us, Brett Favre reveals Parkinson's diagnosis during congressional hearing. And by the way, that's sort of what happened in Muhammad Ali after being hit repealing. They had Brett Favre revealed Tuesday. That's today. He's quote, "recently diagnosed with Parkinson's disease during his testimony, congressional hearing on federal welfare reform." Well, by the way, the reason he's testifying is because he was accused of having sort of stolen money from his home state's welfare system, Mississippi, which has nothing to do, of course, with his head injuries. You know, there's a very interesting piece written back in June of the New York Times by Catherine Caesar Morton called "Why do parents obsess over kids' athletics?" It is. And it talked about the fact that, you know, as many people have pointed out, colleges are so expensive now. Lots of parents are hoping that if a kid is good in sports, they can get a break on how much it costs them to go to college. But she's also talking about so many parents are working now, very long jobs, and there's a certain guilt assuasion if you are accompanying your kid to these sporting practices and games all weekend that you're showing up, you're being a good parent there because you may not feel you're being a good parent all the time because you don't have time because you're working too much. I thought that was an interesting-- Yeah, I can see that conversation. The parent says, "I apologize for not being available, but Johnny, now you can get your head crushed on the football field to show that I'm a parent who loves to do what you want to do." Well, I hope they don't go that far. And kudos to the schools for putting in these baseline tests because I think a lot of people would fight to go back before they should go back. Or not for that. But they should be prevented by the school, if it's on top. You know, Oni said it's variable. Can you answer that question for me before we end this? What? Oni or somebody like you says your kid suffered some head injury, he's not or she's not back to the baseline, you should consider dropping the sport. Explain to me what parent under what circumstances is. We decided, let him or her go back and put them-- Well, maybe the same kind of parents that don't get their kids vaccinated. I don't know, there's a political thing going on there I think is part of this. I think it's the, you know, the whiny libs, you know, we're complaining about something else. You know what this doctor said and I thought it was a great line never about concussions. Your child has one brain and that's it. We're now joined at the BPL desk by Treni Casey, Treni's an anchor reporter for MBC sports boss and excuse me and a BPR contributor, hi Treni. And carb loading banana enthusiast. Oh, you? Are you? Well, only when I carb loads. I try not to eat too many bananas when I'm not, when I'm a little bit lower carb. But if I'm writing a lot, I put them in my smoothies, when I'm, when I had to carb load for a race and I'm eating, I'm not kidding. I'm going to race a late 400 to 450 grams of carbs a day for three days. So I'll put bananas, I'm like a sandwich with peanut butter. I'll put bananas in oatmeal with raisins and maple syrup, like to get like 200 grams of carbs in like one sitting like early in the morning. No banana, but you know what I don't like? Banana flavored things. Oh. Oh, yeah. Banana flavored things are going to make a suggestion. If you have something to say about the banana, send us a text, okay. Thank you. It's Treni Casey. Well, you're not going to read it anyway. So I'm just going to tell you what I think about bananas right now. He's very rude, as we know. Very rude. Anyway, let's talk about a concussion we've been talking about with our listeners. The Miami Dolphins to talk about Loa. Thank you very much. He has had several really bad concussions, a gruesome one. He's still debating his future. Yeah. He's the injured reserve right now, which means he has to be cleared. They need to. He cannot play right now. Dolphins are actually down another quarterback because Skylar Thompson got absolutely nailed to the other night or the other afternoon. He's exactly whoever he is, their backup quarterback. And I know we talked about this briefly last week, but I think what shocked me the most about the two of concussion, one, it was just jarring to see such a gruesome. It was not even a vicious hit. Like that to me should maybe be the biggest warning to it. He did not lead with his head. He almost sort of like glanced to the side of Damar Hamlin and more he led in with his shoulder. And I think Hamlin just moved a tiny bit and then he ends up, the force of the blow was just enough that it knocked him backwards and put him in that fencing position. Like to watch the video on TV and see his arm voluntarily go out like this and then come back in slow, which they say is a physical sign of a traumatic brain injury. That was one, that was one really tough thing. But the other thing is that afterwards, current and former players and coaches were just begging him to retire, which I don't think I've ever seen following a concussion. Like they look at him and they say, this isn't one big hit. Like no one said to Damar Hamlin after what happened to him, which is a freak, freak accident. He almost dies on the football field. But like freak accident, right, it's happened in other sports. That wasn't a football related injury. That just was a, I mean, the worst timing possible type of injury and some would argue he was saved because he was on a football field and they had all of the necessary doctors. But anyway, I digress. No one came out and said, oh, Damar Hamlin should never play football again. Or Aaron Rodgers blows out in Achilles, no one says don't play football again. But too, when he suffers his fourth concussion, I mean everybody from Antonio Pierce, the head coach of the Las Vegas Raiders to guys like Des Bryant and Marcus Spears on ESPN. It's just begging him to walk away. But all the indications are, even though he hasn't said it in so many words, everything I've read said his intention is to return when he's cleared by the NFL. And I don't know. I mean, listen. Does the NFL really want him? I understand if you're a superstar and he's sort of close to it, but he's the quarterback of a big market team. So he's a star, but he's not, it's not. But does the NFL, which worries about, I think about its reputation and money and virtually nothing else, let's assume, and I hope it doesn't happen, he comes back and gets another. Oh, it's a terrible look. It's a terrible look. For the league. It's a terrible look for the Dolphins. But you know, as we talked about last week, like what do you tell a, I don't know how exactly how old the two is, 26, 27, 28 year old guy, like you can't tell him, I mean, I suppose you can tell him that he can't do it. Well, why don't you say, why don't you say if you're the team, we love you, you're a fabulous player, but we can't put ourselves in a position where we feel guilty for what may happen to you in the future. Yeah. So you're released, it's going to cost us a lot of money, but we're going to do the right thing. But we're going to do the right thing and we're going to pay you every dollar. Exactly. Yeah. Which is more than a hundred million dollars. Oh, yeah. Yes, yes, yes. And any case, so that's the update. Let's go from the pro football field to Tufts University and their national championship winning lacrosse team. So they bring in this Navy SEAL to do like exercises and three people have to go to the hospital. Actually more, I think, when 12, yeah, 12, oh, I thought I would, I thought I'd experience still there. Still the hospital. Okay. I knew I saw three somewhere. Like what exactly are, listen, I know that we want to compete in sports and I know we want to compete in sports at the highest level. And I understand that everybody wants to push their teams to the limits that they've never seen before to have a competitive advantage. But at what point do you not vet the person you're bringing in? Take a look at what like the environment in which your athletes are competing, what they're being put through, whether or not they can handle it. And also see the signs of what's happening to them throughout the workout and stop like there is not always glory and there's always, you know, what is it? There's no pain. No gain. Like no, sometimes when there's pain, there is absolutely no gain and you should just stop. What's the name of the thing? It was nine. It was nine, not 12. What's the name of the thing? Can you, you have the story? What, what's the name of the, the, which I'd never heard before begins with an R. Oh, it's. I've never heard of this. I've never heard of this. I've never heard of this. I've never heard of this. I've never heard of this. So what is it? The muscles break. I'm sorry. Good. And so extreme that muscle tissue breaks down and releases a dangerous talk to chemicals into the bloodstream and apparently it can affect your kidneys and your heart is. And it can die. Yes. And what this also indicates, there were not rest periods. They were not eating enough. They were not drinking enough like they were pushing them to limits that their bodies couldn't handle. And like no offense, Tufts lacrosse, I'm sure you're a lovely program, but like what, what are we, what is, what is gained by doing this? Well, can I say this also, I don't know anything about training anybody. But what I do know is already read the last few days and everything I've read said, the most important thing when you're returning to training, particularly in the fall, is that you slowly transition because you go from a low activity summer, in most cases, to ultimately high activity playing when you start playing. This is the opposite of that. So there's no excuse. I haven't heard from the coaches. I haven't heard. I haven't heard from the coaches yet. But there's no excuse for them not saying, even before it started, this is too intense at this stage of their fall training, you know? Also, like these are college kids that are still growing. You know, you don't really, I mean, women pit their peak and sort of stop growing by the time you're like 18, but like, men don't sometimes fully finish their growth period until they're 22 to 25 years old. Like that's the natural physical maturation of somebody. I just what I don't understand is this incessant need, no matter which level you're playing at, to like push people to these crazy limits and not seeing the dangers in it. Like, again, what is Tufts La Crosse gaining by bringing in a Navy Seal? It's La Crosse for goodness sake. Well, they are national champions, but I'm with you. I mean, they're national. Yeah. I agree, completely. But we're not talking. It doesn't justify that, of course. Yeah, I don't care what level you're playing at. And I would also, and I don't know if it says this. I can't remember if it says this in the story or not. I don't believe at Tufts level, are these scholarship athletes? Are they, or is it, I could be wrong, I could be lumping Tufts in with like sort of that Ivy League group where you don't get full athletic scholarships, they sort of like move money around. Whether they do or not, what's the, what's the point is like, you know, you're making these kids do this at that level. And again, not to dismiss a division two or a division three school. But like, this isn't the kids' future. These are going to be doctors and lawyers and don't be a television broadcaster. It's a terrible industry to go into right now. But they're going to do all the, I just can't, it's sort of like putting kids in, like you guys were talking about the first segment, putting kids in football before they're 14. Like, what do you gain by physically pushing young people to ridiculous limits? Like, what is the payoff? A national championship? What does, what do those lacrosse kids get for being national champions? Okay. One more better story. Yes. And this is one of your favorite topics. Yes. We utilize sports gambling in Massachusetts. And this story by the Atlantic talks about the terrible downsides, more people declaring bankruptcy, putting, not putting money in investments because they're betting on sports and even domestic violence when the home team loses. I mean, this is kind of disturbing. I mean, I am dubious to after six years, I think you'll probably see a spike in things, that this is going to be the long, long, long term effect. And I still, I still stand by, you're putting this money somewhere. Like do people who, people who are now sports gambling, or they're not playing the lottery before, like this happens with every, like the lottery is terrible. People don't put money away and it said they go and they hope to hit a quick fix. Like I don't necessarily, I think gambling is a symptom or of a larger problem. Like to blame gambling, I think there's plenty of people and maybe this is just my own, you know, I work with a bunch of people who gamble, I gamble, I put like $5 on stuff, like I'm not, you know, I'm not tearing my family apart. I think people with addictive personalities, and I think people who don't make a lot of money that tends, unfortunately that tends to be the people who end up playing over and over and over again because they try to win something quickly. By the way, let me be clear that I know you agree with this. The fact that people can sports gamble and be fine is sort of like you can drink alcohol and be fine. You can also drink the excess and the problem with sports, I don't, I'm thinking as you're speaking of the people I know who gamble on sports now, I'm trying to think if even of friends, if even one of them did it other than March Madness, which we all fill out little cards for, and maybe on the Super Bowl, I don't think I even gamble, it's so more easily accessible now, and why do you doubt that addiction is a problem for people? I don't doubt that it's not, it's a problem just like I don't doubt that alcohol addiction is a problem, and I don't doubt that people who never tried marijuana before who now have access to it, I just feel like we regulate all of those other things, why should sports gambling be any different, like I, it's not like, you know, it's not like I know people who drink too much, I'm not, I'm not like, well we should ban alcohol because you can't handle your liquor. Well there's another reason by the way, which is not mentioned in the Atlantic story, it's not as bad as the lottery, which is primarily played by poor people, yeah, sports gambling is, more money is spent per capita by low and moderate income people and the wealthy people, and the reason we have sports gambling and casinos, which was I think the one great mistake that Bob Patrick made as governor is because the legislature, most legislators don't have the courage to stand up and say we need more money, so let's raise taxes equitably, instead we'll do something so that people can say well it's voluntary, so it's not taxation, it's just cowardice on the part of people who have power to raise money. And that's the sort of the point I'm making, like the lottery is bad, casinos are bad, sports gambling is bad, and they're, and like, but I don't know, do you take them all away? I just feel like people who have addictive personalities are going to find something, but if it's not bad, then does something else go up? I just think that that might be, you know, can we say first, no, no, we can't, casinos are a good example, people who have addictive personalities, if you live within 50 miles of a casino, you're much more likely to become addicted than if they're more than 50 miles away, go ahead, I'm sorry. You know, one of the things I thought was really disturbing during March Madness hearing these college kids, because you can bet now on these college games, talking about how if they miss the three shot, or they do something. Oh, it's not just college kids, it's pro two, I'll get death threats, like that to me is something. Yeah, I mean, that's, you know, over the top, because you're college, because they're obviously younger and, you know, 18 years old. Yeah, I mean, Massachusetts does ban college, gambling and college sports in state. In state. I mean, you could bet on Oklahoma playing Texas. Like I can bet on Marquette to win the national championship if I want to throw, you know, ten bucks on Marquette to win the national championship. They also ban all profits, you can only bet on teams, not individual players in Massachusetts, at the college level, but not everybody does. I mean, listen, I think it's something that's still, the college thing to me is definitely a little dicey, because these are just still, again, they're still kids. That kid, that big seven foot tall, weird guy looked a little bit like March that was in the March Madness. That was horrible. Yeah, he was. The guy from Purdue. I think exactly. Yeah, exactly. That's his name. Thank you very much. He did. He had a little goofy thing going on. Great basketball player though. Let's talk about it. It is hard because I hate the side of, but I would also say, you know, where these people contact these people, because they're gambling on social media. There's no regulation on social media. There's all these areas that people can go now, whether to take it out on somebody else. Like, it's kind of a mess across the board. Like, that wouldn't be, like, if you're a college player or even a pro player who struggles and you, you know, your team doesn't hit the over or you don't hit your line on the bet. Like, they can just go now to Instagram or threads or whatever it is and Twitter or X, whatever it's called now and just, I mean, just destroy these people and get to them in ways. And I will say this about social media companies, they don't make it easy to block access to yourself. Like, you have to jump through hoops to get it so that no one can, like, I have to figure out a way that I can get people to stop direct messaging me. You know, like, it's, it's, like, I don't need to open my direct messages and have some and tell me how much they hate me, like, no one, no one likes that. And Instagram makes it really hard to do it. Like, it's a, it's like a real process, like, it should be a simple click of a button that you can choose to be like, you know what, I want nothing to do with this. So if we're doing a good news story, wonderful piece in the growth story. Oh, the Larry about the Larry, I mean, Larry O'Brien, which is an inanimate object. The Larry O'Brien trophy is the trophy that's given to the NBA champion, which, of course, was the Celtics this year. And there was this really great. So today is the opening day of training camp for the Celtics. Today's media day. They do all their pictures, all their, like, you know, where they are today, taking pictures? GBA. GBA. They have the white screen all set up. The Celtics are coming and we're here. Oh, are you, are you, are you going to be able to see on my call? Yeah. We're all there. We were broadcasting it live. You can catch full coverage tonight from 7 to 8 p.m. I should. Media Day special on it. So they just post it? Posting for their pictures. So they also do, you know, media availabilities and talk. But anyway, so in, on the eve of this, Adam Himmelsbach, who is the Celtics beat writer for the Boston Globe, did this really cute piece on the summer of Larry, the trophy. And first of all, poor, I think it's Cara Keenan. Is that her name? The woman who was playing? It's the woman on the cell. Yeah. The woman on the cell. She's in charge. They, they put one person and one other person, a guy. Like, in charge of the trophy. So she had to make sure that the trophy got everywhere that it was supposed to go. It flew private. They would only fly Larry on a private jet. He could not go on a commercial airline. Larry went to St. Louis with Jason Tatum. He went to the Dominican Republic with Al Horford. He went to Rhode Island with Joe Missoula. He went to the Hamptons White Party. Very snazzy. Yes. With Beyonce. Beyonce. She got the wedding for her. He went to Peyton Critter's wedding at Harwich Club. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Very snazzy. Of course, he went to have a parade. But I'm like, I want the summer of Larry. I, I want someone to say she'll only fly private. But it's kind of nice. We should say, wait, wait. We should say Laurie Bryan is. No, Laurie Bryan is the former commissioner of the league. And by the way, before that, he was headed a Democratic Party in America, which is sort of odd that they, I guess it was less polarized thought. I don't think I know this. Yeah. He was headed to the Democratic Party. And also, Joe Missoula, the coach of the Celtics, made it a point, I guess, to make sure that the trophy was brought around so people could actually see it. Yes. He should get through. I'm so bummed. So my husband, I live in the North End, and he's brought it to the North End a couple of times. The Strega. He had its own share. Strega? I think it was on the table. Strega. Aria Tritoria, which is a great, if you ever want it, it's a great tiny little restaurant. You go up the set of steps. It's small. It's cozy. And he walked down the street right past where we live and he let everybody touch everyone in his line at Monica's or modern pastry and everything like that. So yeah. It's just a really great story. And listen, they have a real legitimate chance of being the first basketball NBA team to win back-to-back titles since the 2018 Warriors. Oh, let's hope so. I mean, listen-- I love that team. Christ, I love that team. Christ, I love that team. That injury is going to hurt them to start the season. But it doesn't matter. First three months don't matter. It matters what you do second half of the season. It matters what you do in April, May, and June. He's the seven footer who doesn't look like lurch. Is that correct? Yes. He does not look like lurch. Yes. Christaps Porzinga. I'm sorry. I heard himself. He's often injured. So they actually are really careful. What is wrong? I believe this time it's in knee. Knee. Knee. Maybe it's in ankle. I don't know. I mean, to be quite honest, Marjorie, there's always something wrong with Christaps Porzinga. Yeah. There was always something wrong now. There was always something wrong now. Yeah. There's something wrong there. What are you talking about? Well, he has been injured a lot. He's injured all the time. Yeah. Like that's the knock on him. He's never been able to be quite the contributor that his talent level indicates because he's always injured. You know, but let me just say, in this spirit, yeah, that was hard with his foot with his feet. Yeah. Well, I think that's really tall guys, right? Yeah. Yeah. He's a seven foot three kind of guy. It's a long way. I think he's Latvian, if I remember. Is he Latvian? I don't know. Latvian? Yes. Okay. So Latvian in town is pretty prominent. Isn't Andres Nelson's from Latvia? Is it relevant? Is everything else? We've said the last three minutes. Don't you think? You guys don't want to talk about the Patriots? No. Real quick. Real quick. Charles, what do you want to say? Oh, God. I mean, no. Horrible. I think the headline on Jade Storm, she's column. We knew they were bad, but not this bad. Wait, who's columnist? I think it was on show sees. I'm getting it close to Ryan. That's great. Who wrote that great story about the Larry O'Brien? We should give him or her credit. Adam Middlesbak. Oh, is Adam Middlesbak. Yeah. He's a clever writer. He's very clever. Yes. But listen. Oh, we should really quickly also hit. We didn't hit the WNBA. The Sun beat the Caitlin Clark led Indiana fever. She had a hard game. In game one, they kept Clayton Clark to 11 points, two of 13 shooting from three. Tomorrow night, they play them a second time. It's just a best of three series in the WNBA and the playoffs and the first round of the playoffs. So they can win. And it's a weird set up. It's home, home away. So they're the higher seed. So the Sun hosts the Indiana fever. So she can be out of the whole playoffs? She can be out of the whole playoffs by tomorrow night. Oh, and she just won rookie of the year. Just won rookie of the year. Yep. Asia Wilson won MVP. So great year. Great year for the WNBA. But the Sun are still in it. They're the local team. I know people want to see Caitlin Clark, but-- Is that on TV tomorrow night? I believe he has piano. Okay, great. And the patients, do we have hope that they might improve? No. You know what? They might not be as bad as Jacksonville. Okay. That's nice. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. We're here with NBC Sports Boston to contribute to BPI and the Boston Public Library. It's a battle of the vice presidential PBS programming here on Boston Public Radio. Joined now by two award-winning GBH filmmakers, about two brand new documentaries, highlighting the role of vice presidents past, present, and future. Cameo George, executive producer for American Experience. I want to talk about their latest film, which examines the office of vice presidents throughout history. And as I said to you when I met you, I learned a lot and I know Marjorie did too. It's terrific. And Rainey Aronson Roth, his editor-in-chief and executive producer of Frontline, on their new documentary, The VB Choice by the Life and Political Careers of Candidates J.D. Banson, Tim Walz, and we should mention that not too long ago, Rainey and her colleagues won the Academy Award for Best Documentary, 20 Days of Mary Upal. And as we're talking about that, one of the great films ever, we're looking at young Rainey, Cabot Reporter, as we call it, for the Daily Cardinal at the University of Wisconsin in 1990, Rainey. That's pretty incredible. Thank you for finding that. Frontline. Wow. 1990s hair. It was a... It is 90s hair. You're right. Frontline's film will premiere on October 8th at 10 p.m. on GBH2 and Frontline YouTube channel. American Experience is the American Vice President, premier is on October 1st at 8 p.m. on GBH2 and on the American Experience YouTube channel. And by the way, if you didn't get enough programming notes here, Frontline's the choice 2024 Harris versus Trump, which we discussed with Michael Kirk last week that is spectacular. He's the guy who made it, premieres tonight at 9 p.m. on GBH2 and the Frontline YouTube channel. Segments also almost over, so nice to see you both. Camio and Rainey, congratulations. Thank you. So, Rainey, let's start with you. How did this come about, that you were getting ready with Frontline with the Veebs and Camio, you were already doing the Veebs like the Veebs down through history? How did this come about? I mean, I'll speak for Frontline, but we thought this particular season that we should look at the VP candidates and Camio can tell us the history, but for us, at the time we were looking at Biden and Trump, and people started to ask questions about who were the people sitting next to them. And so we did commission a film. It was originally about Kamala Harris and whoever was going to be, Trump's candidate with him. And then, of course, everything changed as we all know, and we had to do a very intense pivot in the middle of the summer, and now we're working hard on the VP candidate show for Frontline, which airs on October 8th. So, Rainey, before we leave you, but you've been doing you and your predecessors of doing the choice since 1988. Yes. Why this year the Veebs? Is it because how old the two candidates were, obviously 78 and 81, what Biden was in the race? I started to feel this way actually when Pence was the vice president as well. I started to wonder what was his ideology, what did he think about, what was he talking to Trump about during those years, and I got really curious about that role as a VP. Then, in this case, we thought, right, both of these men who are going to be running against each other, they have candidates next to them. We should know who's next in line, and so that's really the birth of this as an idea. First time we're doing it, so, you know, it's been an experiment, but I think it's a vital one, and Camille will tell you why, I mean, that they really play an important role in our history. Well, that was one of the things that I learned, is that, yeah, they really do play an important part because I think one in five vice presidents want that being present. Incredible. I had no idea. Nor did I. But they didn't get much respect for a long time, so feel less than on that. Okay, so for us, it's really interesting because we did start out thinking about making this film because of the age of the candidates when it was Biden versus Trump. But then as we started thinking about the implications of that and some of the statistical data that shows how often a vice president does have to step up in the case of infirmity of the president or all sorts of different conditions, we realized we really do, as a country, treat the vice presidency as a joke, as a punchline. And we thought this of all years, we should not do that. And we have to know who the people are who are standing next to the person at the top of the ticket. Who was the line? Who was the line? Who was the line? Your film consolation prize without consolation. That was a great line. That was Lyndon B. Johnson. It was. That was a great line. But my favorite line is the line you started with, with the woman who had two sons who disappeared, filled with the blacks there, I thought that was a great line. The lawyer is this woman who talked about these two sons who were lost to her forever. One was lost at sea, never to be heard from again. One was lost at sea. The other became vice president. But I love that. I love that one. Yeah. And by the way, I assume most people at least know this fact, by the only thing in the film that I knew beforehand, the vice president under the constitution has virtually no responsibilities. He or she, in this particular case, they preside over the Senate so that if it's a tie vote, they break the ties. Harris is done. Vice president Harris, many a time. And they succeed or fill in for the president once the 25th amendment came about, but succeed the president if he, based on our history, dies. That's it, right? That is it. But the thing that's so incredible is that you brought up the 25th amendment, which is the crux of what our film revolves around. It didn't come into play until JFK was assassinated. And so to think that we've had the constitution for 200 years, and no one had thought about rules of succession until the 60s, like that's actually pretty incredible. Can we say, you know, one of the things that is so many factoids in this that are incredible, how little, forget formal responsibility, how little respect so many vice presidents had. I hope I got this number right because I was falling asleep at this point. Because the film that was late at night, did you say that when we're going to get to Rockefeller in a few minutes, when he replaced, when Spuy Ragnu had a resign and obviously, ultimately, there was a disappearance of Richard Nixon, who before that was Rockefeller, that the budget of the vice president's office, when Nixon was Eisenhower's vice president, was $48,000. Is that the right number? I'll have to double check the number, but it was astonishingly low, and it wasn't until Walter Mondale actually came in that the office became something more akin to what we're used to seeing now where there's actually an office that is in the West Wing, that there is a budget, that there's staff, and that there's actually an expectation that the president will take on serious policy issues and a more robust and firm role. That's a voice of Camio George. She's an executive producer for Merx Experience, their film on the vice presidency airs on October 1st at 8 p.m. with her as Rainey Aronson Roth, who runs Frontline, glad to say runs Frontline. Sure, she runs it. Okay, runs Frontline. And October 8th, the VP Joyce will also be on GBH2. So, Rainey, tell us what you have found out, at least so far, that we might not know about Tim Walts or J.D. Vance. I think the most important thing that we're doing in the film is we're looking at how they form their political ideologies, the way they think politically. So as opposed to telling their entire biography, we're really looking at where do they get their ideas from. In each case, their childhoods and their education and their life experience actually really shape them. So what you're going to hear from are friends, family, people who know them well, and that's a really fresh take on these two people who oftentimes are just seeing quick sound bites from. You're seeing them interpreted by other media. This way, you can actually understand, okay, what is the trajectory of their life? How did they arrive at these points of view? And then what would that mean for all of us if they're sitting next to the president? Well, one of the things after reading Vance's book, a while ago of Hillbilly Elegy, which turned out to be nothing like I expected, I thought it was going to talk about how poor people get abused and neglected and all that kind of stuff, and he soon to be, have such a disturbing childhood, you know, I can't help think that unless he's gone through intensive therapy, and I don't know if he has, that he's a disturbed person as a grownup. I mean, the mother threatened to kill him, the mother, it's the grand-- It's a good question for Rainey. The great mother's got all these guns everywhere. I mean, didn't she try to set her husband on fire at one point or something? Great to remember about J.D., regardless of his upbringing, and I think everyone could say this too, is that he does go to Yale. Right. He is very influenced by Peter Thiel and others who are in his circle as he goes forward in both his work that he does in Silicon Valley, and then later his work that he does as a politician himself. And I think if you look at him as a character, as a person, yes, he had that childhood, he's owned it, he's talked about it. But then he really does do a pivot to think about what does matter to him and what he believes is best. And so it's really important to look at J.D. Vance today, even though the book was about his childhood in his upbringing. Yeah. You don't think a lot of his weird views of today have to do with his weird upbringing? I don't know. No comment, right? No comment, right? Okay. And just important to note that when we're doing political reporting, there is a variety of different points of view out there about each of these candidates. And so sometimes when someone's speaking, J.D. Vance, you could take him, for example, he's speaking, and some people will resonate with what he believes in. Yeah. Those are the things that we wrestle with in the film, you know. Our job, really, as workers, is to put it out on the table. And then you decide, do you want to vote for a candidacy that has Trump and J.D. Vance, or do you want to vote for Harris in the case of the choice, obviously, as well? And of course, her running mate, who's Tim Walz. How about him? Anything we don't-- So Tim is a very interesting character. I mean, the fact is one of his gifts is communication, and we've really looked at him being a social studies teacher and his ability to talk to pretty much anyone across a partisan divide. We spent a lot of time in the film looking at his work that he did in his congressional district that was mostly conservative and how he tried to bridge the gaps there, especially with issues like Obamacare and other things like that. And that's a big part of his story that hasn't really been told. And I think it's really, really quite interesting to learn. You know, I tell you, I love that you just did, but you called them J.D. and Tim. I'm so sick of Harris being called Kamala by everybody in the--or Kamala, in the case of Trump, and referring to them by their last names that really made me happy. Can we talk about your thing for a second? I hope I get the chronology right, because I had forgotten this. So Richard Nixon begins to get in trouble. Yes. And then after he begins to get in trouble, feel free to correct me. Spiro Agnew, former governor of Maryland, who is his vice president, starts to get in trouble. Is that right or no? Well, it's potentially a new spirit since we're doing first things. He starts to get in trouble and even before the news of Watergate begins to break. And one of the things that we talked about in the film that's so interesting in terms of the chronology is that the Attorney General is trying to get in touch with President Nixon and their-- There's Elliot Richardson at the time, which attorney, Elliot Richardson, okay. Yes, they need to talk, but they won't leave a message and explain why. And it turns out that it's because they've started to collect evidence about what's happening with Spiro Agnew. Okay, so so far I've gotten one thing wrong. Let me go to the next thing, see if I can get this wrong too. But then it becomes clear, since Nixon's in trouble, that they got to figure out how to get Agnew, the hell out of there as quickly as possible, because otherwise, if Nixon does disappear, either impeach and convict it or resign, and there's a guy under criminal investigation in some state of Maryland, there's a problem. So ultimately, a plea deal is cut, he doesn't go to jail, Agnew is gone. And then all of a sudden, we have who is the vice president of the United States. We have Gerald Ford from the fifth district of Michigan, a man who, by all accounts, had no interest in running for the presidency. He had no interest in being vice president. In fact, he had told his wife and his family members that he was actually thinking about stepping down and not running for reelection in his own congressional district when he gets the call. Okay, so he becomes president and he realizes he's got to pick somebody to fill the hole. Here's that moment. Here's a clip from your film on American Experience talking about the choice Ford made for VP, followed by archival tape of the announcement. Here it is. Adding even more to the whole oddness of the situation, if you will, was that the first task Gerald Ford had as president was to choose a new vice president. And he comes through the door now with his choice, and the choice, it is not a rocker dollar. The former governor of New York, and he was leading the list of speculators among many people. Yeah, and I didn't, based on that sound, I didn't remember either. I didn't even know who the choice was till Rockefeller, the former governor of New York, walked through the door. Until he walked through the door, everyone was peering, waiting to see who was going to walk through. So it really was, unlike now, where there's speculation, there's the whole deep stakes who's it going to be. You're talking about the pros and cons of each of the potential candidates. This was a blank slate. And no one did. I think it was a good move because he was so rich, he wouldn't have to be doing any shenanigans in the side to make money, and Nelson Rockefeller came from a very wealthy family, as we recall. He did. Last thing, and then I'll shut up about this, that I thought was fabulously interesting. The Speaker of the House, who's next in line for the presidency, is Carl Albert. Yes. Now, he faces a couple of issues coming before him, and a potential consequence based upon what he does. Explain what that was there. Carl Albert is an amazing figure in history who I really knew nothing about before the making of this film. We're in a situation, as you just set up, Richard Nixon has to step aside. His Vice President has already had to step aside. So now there are two potential vacancies that are about to happen. Carl Albert, a Speaker of the House, is next in line. He is a Democrat, but Nixon, who had just won in a landslide, is a Republican. And so Carl Albert is presented with this moment where he can, as some of our experts talk about, stage a revolution, and take over, and in state himself as a Democrat, as the President. It's with impeachment and doesn't proceed with the confirmation of the Vice President. Could have been him. He becomes President of the United States. We could have had President Carl Albert, but it's that period in history is absolutely unbelievable, amazing, we had a President and a Vice President, neither of whom had run for election, had never received a single vote from the American public. You know, Ray, I know you're doing -- it's incredible. It is incredible. It's just history we should all know, right? I just love it. Yeah, I don't know any of the stuff. How many of the 51 Vice Presidents can any of the three of your names? Oh, come on. None of them, practically. We could do all of them, and then we'll go off the air. I'll tell you. I knew almost none. I also learned that Garfield, after he got shot, lingered for 88 days, I mean, that was incredible. I did not realize that either. You know what one of the great scenes that I thought in your documentary was the scene when Eisenhower is coming back home after recovering, I think, from a second heart attack? The crowds, the adulation, people cheering, a big welcome back, I signs. I thought that was kind of sad, because you would probably never see that. I had this discussion last night that the candidates, their images, everything around them, is so tightly managed, regardless of party. Just where we are now in contemporary politics, you would never see that kind of moment of vulnerability. It's literally in a wheelchair with a blanket over his lap, and he looks frail. He looks small, and we just would not have that experience today, I don't think. I don't think so either, so you know, I know you're doing biographies, not political analysis, Randy, but what's your sense from the reporting? Do people think this matters that who the vice president is in terms of what happens with the election? I do this time around. I feel like actually in the VP film, we do more political analysis than we did in the choice, and the reason we did it is because so much is not known about what they both believe, so we really felt it was imperative to understand, especially in the final act. What does Tim Walz believe in? What has his voting record been? The same thing with JD Vance, shorter voting record, obviously, right, but we're looking at it through the lens of what do they believe and how are their political ideologies formed? And I do think people are incredibly curious about both these candidates, and they get has to do with the fury of the race, right? It is a neck-and-neck race. People are looking for what differentiates them, and they're looking at Tim and JD as very different people, right? They have very different ideas, represent different parts of American, this sort of American dream even if you think about it, so I think that's what we really focus on, so you do see more politics in this film than you would have in the choice. Well, by the way, for people who don't see the choice, I should just say, one of the choices beyond how spectacular they are is proof, to me at least, how fair you and your people are. Everybody talks to you. It doesn't matter. It's true. Virtually everybody sits down for an interview, which speaks to the fact that they think they'll get a fair deal, which is hugely important. Right. No, I mean, that's huge, right? And that's the same thing with JD Vance and Tim Walz is we have people from both sides of that aisle talking to us, family, friends, political, you know, people who have looked at their lives in a more critical way, people who look at them and agree with them. And I think that's really important because that is America. I know he announced very proud that his mother had been 10 years sober at the Republican National Convention. Did you talk to the mom? We didn't get to the mother. Yeah, she wouldn't do it. Oh, well. Maybe you can. I know. Camio, could you explain the 25th Amendment, which almost none of us heard of until Donald Trump was president, and there was some talk unconfirmed that cabinet members were talking about using Section 4, which no one really ever heard of, titled "Declaration by the Vice President and Cabinet Members of a Presence and Ability to Serve." Forget that for a second. The other birch by Senator from Indiana, is that right? I think he wears it right. How did the 25th Amendment come out, come about to begin with? So as I was talking about before, there was this moment when the country is deeply grief-stricken in the wake of JFK being assassinated live on television, and where we are politically as a country, there's the Cuban Missile Crisis. There are all of these things, remnants of the Cold War. The state of international relations is tense. America's role in the world is critical. And so when JFK is killed, suddenly, for the first time in more than 100 years, people actually come to grips with the fact that there is no actual documented rule of succession for what needs to happen. And so, as you're saying, Senator Bai and others are just like, "We can't let this happen." And so there is a process where Congress people led by him and others, academic experts, attorneys come together and try to figure out, how do we map this out? Like, what should the rules be? Because all along, it's been sort of a gentleman's agreement. We talk about Eisenhower when he's in the hospital. He and Richard Nixon basically have a handshake agreement that if something goes south with him, then Richard Nixon will step up. But people realize there are just so many things happening in the country of such major import that we can't just leave it up to a handshake agreement. And so the process for formulating an amendment begins. You know, Randy, obviously we're here to talk about what you're doing in the vice-president, but for people who haven't seen it, since it did win the Academy Award and it was one of the most incredible pieces of journalism I've seen quite some time. Give people an idea of what 20 days of Mary Eupel was about and how it came about. Oh, thank you for asking, and thank you. So 20 Days in Mary Eupel was a film really told by journalists who were under siege in Mary Eupel with other people who were Ukrainian during the first 20 days of the war. And they were under siege, obviously Russians were coming in and they stayed and they filmed. There was a point in which they could have left, they decided not to leave and stay, then they wanted to leave and they couldn't get out. So it's a really tense 20 days and they filmed literally everything. These are news AP reporters, they're journalists, they're not filmmakers. But what I think happened is because they had cameras and video cameras, they were able to essentially just cover it as if it was a documentary. We got involved because the AP came to us and told us, what you're seeing in the news isn't the whole story, would you like to look at the extended rushes, which are just really the footage. And we did, and within about two days said to them, we see a very important story to be told in documentary form. And then we spent a few months working with the AP reporter, especially Mrs. Slough Cherinoff, and created a film that was really remarkable, memorable, Michelle Meisner, who's with GBH in Frontline, edited it, and we worked on it in Boston right here. And I remember the scene at the beginning of the war that we all saw that was so upsetting about the maternity ward that was bombed. That's what got our attention to, the maternity ward that was bombed, they were there when it was happening, they were able to profile the women who were affected the children, the doctors, and so that's a really potent scene. Also a lot of the people on their ground thought that that would really get international intention, and it didn't really, right, we all noticed it, but then this sort of trajectory of the ward didn't change as much as they had hoped. Very personal story told by Mrs. Slough himself, very on the ground, and then of course you see them escape, and that's one of the most dramatic scenes that I've ever seen filmed, where they're escaping with the Red Cross and others as they're trying to leave Mary Eppol and they got out safely. And incidentally, right before them, another filmmaker had tried to leave and he was killed. So it's really a potent and really important, ongoing, important story, and we're working with them again. Oh good, oh great, they need help. Well Joe Biden's just this morning making a plea at the UN for the people of Ukraine and support for their country. Can we spend one last minute or two talking about the vice presidency stuff, do you both think when you're home, not, well even at work, we talked about civic education and polarization of the day, and the polarization is just, as we all know, out of control, bad for democracy, bad for your mental health, bad for everything, and we posited not an original notion. A lot of people have said it, is when you learn more about your government, learn how the system works, how it doesn't work, it may be mutes some of the edges of that. Do you subscribe to that notion, Camino? Because this really is a lesson, as I said, we learned, I'd say 90% of what we saw in this film, we had no idea, was the state of the law or the constitution, do you subscribe to that? I absolutely do, and I think that that's at the heart of our mission at American Experience, not just with this film, but all of the films that we do. There's so much about our government, about our country, that we just don't know, highly educated people, where things you gloss over them, and I think that if you have a deeper understanding and you have more context based in history and government and civics, that you will have a better understanding of where we are today, of the politics that we're dealing with today, and a point that our filmmaker, Michelle Ferrari made, actually, is that one of the things that struck her the most in making this film was a reminder that government can change, and these founding documents can change, that's the whole idea of amendments, and we think that we are "stuck" with so many things, but actually you just need a course of people who have the motivation to do something and then the stick-to-it-tiv-ness to actually carry it through, and that's the thing, there's a reason that we have amendments, none of these documents are perfect. How about you, Rainy? There's interesting as Kimmyo is talking, and I don't want to speak for you at all, but I think a lot of us who are in public media are here because of the educational mandate of our programming, so our program's frontline and many of our programs actually are seen in over 60% of the public educational schools across America. I didn't know that. That is actually something that is for all of us deeply meaningful, that our work, our journalism is reaching younger people, and we're also, and I'll come hopefully and talk with you all about it, launching something called "Frontline Short Docs," where we're making short documentaries, we're doing it this election season for younger people, especially people who are voting for the first time. They can go there and they can see shorter form- And what kinds of things? On the choice to American families, and hopefully, if we can get it done, the VPs as well. That's really funny. I mean, they're short, they're five or six minutes each, but we hope that that will encourage younger people to know their history, know who's they're voting for, understand more, without all the partisan noise and the sort of commercialized media around them. Please do come back. To the pro from Zoe, our producer says, "That's how I got here." Nova Frontline Films in high school were a big reason I studied journalism in college, so there you go. Me too. I mean, that's how I learned about Frontline was in a high school class. Really? This is how, we didn't have a television at home. So this is literally an access point for many of us, and on ongoing, and maybe more important than ever, part of why our work has the reach that it has. You know, one last thing before you go, I hadn't thought of this until you're both speaking about commitment to one's country and government and the peaceful transfer of power and whatever. One of the things from your film, Kamiya, that we of all seen, is the incredible picture when Lyndon Johnson is being sworn in on the plane. And what struck me, even though I've seen the photograph 5,000 times, as well as wife is standing to his right, as you'd expect, standing to his left is a woman who just experienced maybe the worst trauma that any human being can experience in her life, the wife of the executed president. And I assume, I mean, I haven't read as much about it as I should, it's because she knew what that moment meant to the country, despite what she had just suffered now. They all knew, she knew that she had to be there and that that was part of the compact that she made with the American public. Lyndon Johnson knew that he had to be there, and despite his own grief, as well, had to stand strong, had to say, I'm willing to step into this role, and that with the quote, the famous quote, with your help and with gods, that I will be able to carry out the duty. And so there really was a sense throughout, you know, regardless of your political affiliation, that, you know, we're doing this for a greater reason, that kind of greater. Yeah. And you know, just reminded me, in terms of Jacqueline Kennedy, being able to see the importance of these kinds of things, who showed her getting off the airplane, still in the pink suit, still covered with blood, because she wanted people to see the blood on her clothing. Oh, God. Can I say one last thing here, I hope this doesn't offend you, because the entertainment word in public media is sometimes anathema. Not only do we learn a huge amount from both of what you do, your films are really, I mean, many of the films, obviously, some are so intense, but are entertaining too. And that is huge, because it, as you know better, that it keeps people's attention when they might wander. I don't think that's a, that's the fact that there are storytellers. Well, that's exactly right. We were journalists, but we're storytellers, we love a good story, right? And, and actually when we're making decisions at frontline, it is also story. You're looking for, and we were talking about this last night with JD Vance and Tim Walz in our rough cut session, what are the stories that you will never forget that are emblematic of who they are and their political views. Well, there's a woman who agrees with you standing right where you are, Doris Kern's good one was there last week, and said it's all about stories. That's the only thing you remember, it's the only thing you act upon. It was ever enough. And she's totally right as are you. Congratulations to both of you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you very much. Great to be here. Congratulations to the great work. Cameo George, the executive producer for American Experience, and Randy Aronson Roth is editor in chief and executive producer of Frontline. And again, the, the film I mentioned before, 20 Days of Mariable, if you haven't seen it, you really will learn a lot. It's very moving film. Frontline is the VP choice for premiere on October 8th at 10 p.m. on GBH2 and the Frontline YouTube channel, American Experience is Terrific. The American Vice President premieres on October 1st at 8 p.m. on GBH2 and on the American Experience YouTube channel. Thank you very much again. Great to see you. Thank you for coming in. Up next, I think, we're recently, we think she's coming. We hope she's coming. We're recently, for you may know, is the first Haitian American elected to the Massachusetts legislature. She's going to talk about the impact of the lies told about the Springfield and Haitian Americans in general, has had on her community as a rally gets underway on Boston Common to crime the anti-immigrant and anti-Asian rhetoric coming from the Republican presidential ticket. You're listening to Boston Public Radio 897GBH live from the Boston Public Library and streaming at youtube.com/GBHNews. Welcome back to Boston Public Radio, Jim Brody, Marjorie and the Live at the Library. Stream at youtube.com/GBHNews. Back here tomorrow and Friday, hateful rhetoric about immigrants, specifically Haitian immigrants, has become a defining feature of Donald Trump's re-election campaign. Here's Trump's comments about Springfield, Ohio's Haitian population during the debate, followed by a guy, Jamie McGregor, who is CEO of McGregor Medal, it's a company based in Springfield, Ohio, via PBS's NewsHour. In Springfield, they're eating the dogs, the people that came in, they're eating the cats, they're eating, they're eating the pets there. I wish I had 30 more. Our Haitian associates come to work every day. They don't have a drug problem. They'll stay at their machine, they'll achieve their numbers, they're here to work. And so in general, that's a stark difference from what we're used to in our community. To nobody's surprise, Trump and his VP candidate Vance continue to push fake stories, this information about immigrants coming for pets. Last night, about a new community of Haitian immigrants in Pennsylvania, actually, that was Trump. It's led to a series of bomb threats in Springfield, schools being closed, hospitals on shutdown, non-ease in the communities of hardworking, good people. What we haven't been discussing enough is the rich contribution of Haitian immigrants through history, not just in recent times, here to lay it out for us and talk about how recent headlines have affected Boston's rich Haitian community. We're joined by former state representative, Marie Saint-Floor, who is the first Haitian American to hold elected office in Massachusetts. She now runs Saint-Floor Communications. Marie, it's great to see you. Thanks so much for being here. It's good to see you, Jim. Thank you. Good to be here. We always talk about the large Haitian community here in Boston. So how was it that so many Haitians wound up in Boston? Well, I think first it was education. I think my family came because it had a great reputation for education and it was an opportunity. And so what happens is, as you know, for most immigrants is, one person comes, they find that there's an opportunity and they invite others over, and that's for my family. We had folks who were here in the '50s who were building a life and when my parents ended up in Jersey and the New York area where our family had actually, when they first immigrated, that's where they were. Boston was a great place to come. They wanted me to go to Catholic schools and back in those days, Jersey wasn't accepting too many black kids in Catholic schools, then this was a place where I could come and ended up at St. Patrick's. So that was one reason. And many of them came for the universities that were here in order to attend. I mean, that was the first wave. If you remember, there was just really just a brain drain out of Haiti after the '50s during the Duvalier regime and that was the first wave and then there was a wave of everybody else being called communists. That was the second wave, and there was another wave where, you know, people were leaving because of the dire instability and hunger and all of that that was happening on the island. So that's what brought us here to different shores. Usually, it was not honestly, Florida, a lot of it was New York. New York was where the place that hailed a lot of people and eventually folks made it north. And I got to say, Haitians have been coming here since the early 1800s. You know, if, you know, Jean-Bazis points us out, establish, they'll establish the city of Chicago. I always say to folks, you know, somebody paid for my ticket here long before I got here. By the way, and today we have the third largest concentration of Haitians in the United States. Yes, you do. Is that all right? Absolutely. You know, one of the things, Margarita, and I've had to admit far too many times is embarrassment since the murder of George Floyd, about how many holes in our knowledge of black history in general in this country we have, we've learned a lot, learned a lot, and again, doesn't undo the fact that we shouldn't have had to learn this late in our lives. Narrowing the focus, we were talking this morning, our knowledge of Haitian history in this country and the contributions Haitians and Haitians and Americans have made was virtually non-existent until we're preparing for you and when you were here last time, a few months ago, fill in a blank or two of things you think people should know and don't. Well, you know, when I was a kid, my father thought it was important that we learned about who we are. And so if you think about the Louisiana purchase, there's no Louisiana purchase without Haiti, group of slaves deciding that they wanted their freedom. And at that time, we had three superpowers that were occupying that small rock. The British were there, they wanted to subdue the slaves, they weren't successful. The French were there, they hung around a little longer, they weren't successful either. They made us pay. Everybody talk about reparations? Well, the French made Haitian slaves pay for reparations back in the late 1800s, right? YA ended up paying France for the privilege of my freedom. And then, of course, you had the Spanish, right? And the Spanish occupied Haiti as well. And then, you know, they had the separation of the island, because at that time it was San Dominique, then it was split up between, then it became, the Spanish took over one side and it became the Dominican Republic. The French kept on with the other side of the island. Now you have to understand, and the northern part was where the British had held. So a lot of the influence, if you even take a look at some of the names, you have the influence of the British and the northern part of the country. And so, when you think about the slaves that ended up there, so a lot of them came over because a lot of the French ran out of Haiti because the revolution that was starting there ended up in Louisiana, in that whole section of the United States. And then one sad was, and these are really rough history guys, so you had a lot of the Africans, the folks of African descent, hail from that part of the Caribbean. Now let's move a little further up. Now World War II happens, right? Take a step back. I knew you were. Right? Before World War II, Haiti gets established. They're still fighting for their, to be recognized, right, because you got to think about it. Jim Crow is being established in this country. There's a real push. The southern states do not want the blacks to be free. And here's this country on the tip of the United States, the side of all these black folks decided no more, we're not, you're not going to hold us in slavery, we're going to free ourselves. And so by the way, Africans were talking to each other, we didn't have cell phones, but we communicated. We're able to communicate. So Africans from their age, that island and Africans from the south were in communication. Folks don't believe it, but they were. And so you had a lot of disturbances happening. Really guerrilla welfare, people trying to be free that were happening before that. So you push forward, there's the, they get out of Louisiana Purchase, the Battle of Savannah. A lot of Haitian slaves, again, blacks, who's fighting in Savannah, Haitian slaves fighting for the freedom of the Union, right here in the United States. There's a, there's a statute in the middle of Savannah, Georgia, recognizing the contributions of the Haitians in that war. Keep forward, we'll jump, keep forward again. I could keep going. But the beautiful thing is while we're fighting our own words, America comes, you know, if you remember, John Adams wasn't too happy about these black folks becoming free. And honestly, spent a lot of time trying to kill the economy in Haiti during the time. They actually quit any exchange, because Haiti was actually, it was called La Pélle de Consi, which was the pearl of the Antilles, because it was the plantation, this island was a huge plantation, that was producing the most sugar cane, indigo, you name it. It was being produced there for the benefit of the French, and the, and so when that ended, and so it was selling to the United States, it was selling to the other countries in that area. So when Toussaint du Vetsieu, Descelin, and all of them decided to take the freedom, they killed the trade with that, because they didn't want to trade with any black folks. They didn't want to trade with the slaves, they killed them. They killed the exchange of the opportunity to actually build infrastructure, raise funds, and create an economy on that island that killed. And then one of the cute things that happened is John Adams decided, well, when the Haitian good was created, he would flood it. He would flood the Haitian market with false Haitian dollars and help kill the economy that way too. Fast forward, fast forward. We're now going to World War II, and we need folks to help fight in World War II. So where do they go? They decided that they wanted help, and, you know, if you remember, blacks were still fighting, and the United States were still fighting for recognition, for their freedom, for their dignity here. Africans were still fighting across, and blacks could not, what? We still couldn't come, no public transportation, couldn't walk into a place like this and eat, couldn't be served. My kids couldn't go to school, right? Public schools were not open to us, we couldn't come in and walk into public schools. We weren't allowed into universities, what have you? We had to create our own churches, wouldn't allow us into their spaces. And so, but here it is, we needed bodies for World War II. We got a bunch of, you know, which again led to the desegregation happened first in the United States Army than it ever did in the United States Civil Society. But there we were in Haiti again, and we were able to recruit from the Haitian Army at the time. They first, a class of six, they were going to train fighter pilots in order to go to World War II. And they were two classes from the Haitian Army that came to the United States, that trained in the South to fight with the United States in World War II. >> So the reward for all those contributions decades later as a former president, once we present it again, lies about people who were legally in this country, who as we just heard from the president of that company, are making huge contributions in that community. What happened, we know the suffering that people, Haitians, Haitian Americans, and non Haitians in Springfield are going through. And I have to say, I'm heartened by the fact that some rock-ribbed Republicans who even support Trump have said the right thing and done the right thing to protect their fellow community members. What kind of spillover does that kind of rhetoric have on the larger Haitian American community beyond the borders of Springfield, Ohio, Marie? >> I think every community where there's a Haitian presence right now is feeling it. You can't help it, right? You can't walk into a space and not feel that people are looking at you funny because of what somebody else is saying. Now, lucky, so removed, because you get to be removed. But if I am somebody who's a health aide, who now has to walk into these spaces, who will walk into the hospitals right now, trying to take care of people. If I'm a kid in school today, if I'm a five-year-old, a six-year-old, walking into school today and having your community being discussed that way, and kids could be so nice, you know that, right? I mean, the things that they'll say, they'll hear it from their parents, they communicated it. They don't understand that the hurt that they're creating. And so for us, at least here, it's that. I think the Boston Public Schools have to pay particular attention to what's happening to young people in schools right now. >> Are they? >> I don't know. I don't know, and then that's a very good question. They have to pay particular attention to particularly teenagers right now in terms because that is where altercations will happen. >> And even if it doesn't happen, the anticipation that it might happen because of what adults are saying about, yeah. This fight of flight, right, because that remains with you. But in Springfield, they're being attacked, right? The people, I mean, their lives have been disrupted. Folks who, Springfield, I met a gentleman who's from Springfield, African-American gentleman who said there was nothing there. And so they wanted people to come. In fact, they looking for people to come because a lot of these small towns in the United States have lost many of its population. And they needed to build it back. And so those folks came and were building community back. >> And by the way, it shouldn't matter, but the vast majority are here legally. >> They're absolutely illegal. >> Despite what Vance and Trump are saying. >> But then, so here's the other thing. I don't spend a lot of time on that gentleman, both of them, because they're not worth it. Because it is a distraction that is created to do just that. It's not the first time that we've used those strokes in this country, and we'll continue to use it. Ethnic discrimination is not new in this country. I mean, I think if I grew up in an Irish Catholic community, I mean, so there was there, the Italians have experiences, the Polish have experiences, the Jews have experienced it. What's particular about Haitians is that we get two. It's a twofer. You get to have the ethnic issue, and you also get to be black in this country. Where there's structural written in law structures in order to prevent you from being able to equitably enjoy the benefits of our democracy. So that's the double whammy here. >> We only have a few seconds left to Marie Saint-Flare, but tell people who are concerned about this. What they might be able to do to show some solidarity here. >> One, if you hear it, stop, stand out against say something. I think it was Niemala who said that they came for one, and he said nothing, then there was nobody left when they come for you. Because that's the way it works. We can forget, maybe you forget what happened to your ancestors, but for somebody standing up for them, who won't enjoy the freedom that you're enjoying today, say something. That's all, and the other thing is vote people. The America only asks us to do one simple thing. We are so blessed, and we don't appreciate it because we get to sit here and be so relaxed and think the world is going to continue to revolve around us. Only one thing as a citizen in the United States that you're asked to do, vote. That's it. Do it. >> On that note, you can take a breath now Marie Saint-Flare, I want you to know. I'm really glad you spent some time with us, thank you so much. >> Thanks for inviting me, I appreciate it. >> Yeah, Marie Saint-Flare, as Jim said at the beginning, is the first Haitian American elected to the state legislature of Massachusetts. We very much appreciate her time giving us her a little history lesson about Haiti then, and Haitians in America all through the years. Thank you very much for coming in. >> Thank you, and she's lucky to have escaped the legislature too. We should have said that, by the way. >> [LAUGH] >> Okay, up next, our tech segment of the day, the banana and you. What would life be like without the banana, the beloved banana? And do you fear the dreaded banana fungus, Jim? We'll explain it all next, and read your text, listen to Boston Public Radio 897GBH broadcasting live from the Boston Public Library and streaming at youtube.com/GBHNews. [MUSIC] Welcome back to Boston Public Radio, Jim Brody, and live at the library streaming youtube.com/GBHNews. It's time for our tech segment of the day. We've been soliciting your thoughts on the global threat nobody is talking about except us. The fusarium wilt of the banana. >> Yes. >> That's right, Marjorie, your smoothies, your peanut butter, banana sandwiches are at risk. Time for one got so worked up about this. When Marjorie walked into the studio this morning with her customary banana for breakfast. I took it from her, ate the last bite. I may have done that before I knew that there was a fungus, but that's besides when. The bananas we eat today are of a scientifically modified variety created decades ago to combat a different strain of fungus. And the fungus is involved putting our current Cavendish bananas, that's the main one. Who cares, it risks. So the bananas and you- >> You cares. >> Marjorie loves them, if I never had another one, that'd be too soon. >> Just ate one this morning for breakfast. >> I know, I had nothing else in the house. So what is their tasteless? The only thing good about a banana is you can buy like 11 pounds for a dollar. Other than that, forget them. What are the texts I'm saying? >> Well, I think a lot of people are very attached to bananas, just had a banana right before you brought up the topic without bananas for my breakfast fruit. We would be living in a banana less. >> Well, that's very sad. >> Very, very sad. >> That's good line, banana less. Mary from Nahana is very concerned about banana diaries or lack thereof. And Debbie from Cambridge says, I'm making a smoothie right now which contains a banana. Of course, a dull and soulless smoothie without one, please say the banana. And Dave from Concord says, I get my daily bananas, listening to the Jim and Marjorie show. >> Well, that's a good one. An anonymous text, I have one banana that travels back and forth with me to work every day. I bring it as part of my lunch, but it always leaves the peeling item in my lunch bag, so I ignore it. At the end of the week, I usually compost it because it's too ripe to eat. Apparently, I like the convenience of the banana, but not the taste. I can relate to that. >> Well, the anonymous text, if your bananas get too ripe, you put them in the freezer. >> And then you put them in the freezer, and they will last if you want to make banana bread and have a smoothie. I put a lot of frozen bananas in my smoothies. >> Can I ask you a question, I'm a little unsolored. >> The Cavendish bananas in trouble, apparently. >> I know. >> And this other one, I can't even pronounce what the other one is called. >> So don't. >> But there are also red bananas, little tea bananas. There are hairy bananas, Jim, they are pink and hairy. >> What do you mean hairy? >> Well, they're hairy. They have hairy. >> The skin of the banana, oh, the outside, I can over that. >> Yeah, and you know what? It's not a tree. It's an enormous herb, this story says the banana. >> Do you see Zoey showing us bananas grow up? >> They'll grow up. >> Yeah, I didn't know that. >> No, I didn't know that, but the tree, so it's not a tree, it's an herb. So I learned that today. >> You know what I'm a little unsoltered about? You're bragging about your own banana connection. >> Who invented the melted banana on overnight oats? Who invented that? >> Well, you claimed to have done that. >> I did, that's correct. >> Yeah, it's very good, you melt the banana on top. >> On the microwave, yes. >> I, probably three days a week, eat a peanut butter banana sandwich. >> I know that. >> In the days I don't eat the peanut butter banana sandwich, I make a smoothie in which I have at least one, or if not two bananas, because it's true. A smoothie is nothing, Jim, without a banana. >> So you're like a banana woman, is what you're basically saying. >> I really like bananas very much, it's my favorite. >> Thank you, I have no idea who that is. >> But thank you for joining the show. You have anything else say about bananas? >> Julie with Seinfeld talking about bananas. >> Sure, let's hear it. >> George Costanza loves bananas, but according to his father, they should go on the side of the jello, not in the jello. >> Here it is. >> Georgie, but you like some jello. >> Why'd you put the bananas in there? >> George likes the bananas. >> The banana, the bananas on the side. >> I'm with the father, there it is, that's it, on the banana. >> Don't worry, I think the scientists are working to make sure that the bananas will not be extinct. Just to make sure you don't get banana fungus. >> Do you know they grew up? >> The climate change thing. >> Do you know they grew up? >> What? >> Do you know they grew up breading down? >> They grew up, no, I thought they grew down, but what do I know? I thought it was a banana plant. >> What do I know? >> And then tree, in fact, it's neither. Anyway, you're done with that. Thanks for all your text on this crucial issue. Coming up after the one o'clock news, going to talk to CNN's, John King, the latest polls, the latest self-described news on the self-described curve. Mark Robinson, John King, next, you're listening to Boston Public Radio, 897, GBH, live from the Boston Public Library. >> I'm Jim Brownie, head on hour three of the Boston Public Radio, CNN's chief national car is fun and Dorchester's on John King returns. He's been on the road for months and lead up to the election as part of his all over the map reporting project that recently took over the battle grounds that were a key block of Latino voters, is the wavering between Trump and Harris. And speaking of the Trump campaign, they're attempting to change voting rules in places like Georgia and Nebraska at the last minute, and it could affect November's outcome. >> I'm Marjorie Egan, Walmart is testing on a new program where shoppers have to pay for the privilege of using self-checkout. That is, pay to do the work Walmart used to pay employees to do. We'll open the phone and text lines to talk with you about self-checkout woes. And accidentally forgetting to scan a bunch of asparagus is ever warranted and merits are a rest. All that ahead, Boston Public Radio, 897, GBH, live from the Boston Public Library. >> Houston Brownie, I am Marjorie Egan. Welcome to hour number three of Boston Public Radio, 897, GBH. We are broadcasting live from the Boston Public Library as we do every Tuesday, Wednesday, and Friday. And we are streaming at youtube.com/GBHNews. >> Hello again, Jim. >> Hello again, Marjorie. We are now joined by the pride of Dorchester on Zoom and a few other places too. That'd be John King, CNN's Chief National Correspondent. Beyond two great reporting projects, this election cycle. All over the map in the battleground, John King, it's good to see you. >> Happy Tuesday, six weeks from tonight. >> Six weeks, yep. >> Yes, six weeks from tonight. We just saw a headline on your station at CNN, which we have on here, saying basically the race is too close to call. >> We have a new national poll out today. And you've heard me for years say, you know, look at national polls, but don't run to Vegas on a national poll. We pick presidents state by state. But we have a national poll, which gives us a look at least at the big dynamics. And yes, it is essentially a dead heat. If you look at the national poll, which tells you it's going to come down to five or six of the battleground states, what's striking to me in this poll, we've seen a very close competitive race for some time. Since Biden got out and Harris got in and boosted the morale of the democratic base. What really jumps out at me is that Trump has an 11-point lead in this national poll when you ask voters, which candidate do you trust to handle the economy? And we know that's the number one issue. So he has an 11-point lead on the number one issue, and yet she is tied. >> That's great. >> So what does that tell you? It tells you she has a problem, she has a problem. She needs to narrow that gap. But it also tells you that it is very clear to me when you look at this that a lot of people out there don't want Donald Trump back. They're just not sure the vice president is up to the job, especially on the economy. >> But having said that, the trend obviously is towards her. Does that matter, meaning if you compare even her early time as the nominee with today, there is movement in her direction, not immense, but movement nevertheless. That is indicative of something or it is not? >> I'm not sure that's the case anymore. So we have these national polls where, yes, she has, you know, moved up into a tie with Trump. Maybe she's a point ahead, maybe she's a point behind. If you're -- the thing about -- when you see any polling, if you can average them, that's the best way to do it, because any one poll is a snapshot in time. But if you look at the New York Times, Seattle battleground polling yesterday again, just one poll, but in the Sun Belt states of North Carolina, Georgia, and Arizona, those were Trump's best numbers in quite some time. So did they catch a bounce toward Trump? Or did they just get a good date toward Trump, right, in the polling responses? So I would be careful. There was definitely momentum for Harris when Biden got out, when she clinched the nomination, heading into the Democratic Convention, and maybe a little bit after. I would argue, looking at all the numbers I look at, and I probably look at too many numbers, Jim, is that I would say it's kind of plateaued, that it's kind of, you know, it's -- okay, here we go, and we're very competitive. And, you know, if you average the North Carolina polls, it's a dead heat. Maybe she has a slight advantage. If you average the Georgia polls, maybe Trump has a slight advantage. If you average the Arizona polls, maybe Trump has a slight -- I would say Trump does have a slight advantage. The blue wall states, Pennsylvania is tied. Harris has a tiny advantage in Michigan and Wisconsin. So this is a -- you know, they're so -- it's so tiny, with six weeks to go, that we're just in for a long night, I believe, unless something breaks. And I also think we should start now having this conversation. Remember how long it took in 2020? It took until Saturday to know the winner? Yeah. This is going to take several days. It's not exactly the same as it was in 2020 when you had the pandemic, but you still have this, you know, that changed how people vote, to mail in votes, to show up early -- you know, in-person early voting, election day voting. You have this hybrid voting now. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. There's somebody out there who suggests there is from time to time. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but it will take longer, especially if the race is very close, to be able to declare winners. And I think that's going to stretch, at least into Thursday, of election week and perhaps even longer. Yeah, we're going to talk in a second about how long it could take in Georgia if they're hand-counting ballots. But I wanted to mention to you something that I've seen. There was a piece in the globe today about Sean O'Brien, head of the Teamsters. The Teamsters didn't endorse this time, and they have traditionally endorsed Democrats. Sean O'Brien says the reason, or part of the reason anyway he didn't, is because his membership is for Trump, which underscores her problems with white working-class men. She's done worse in Biden with white working-class men. She's a woman. She's a black woman. What do you think? I think you just said it quite eloquently and simply, which is the way it needs to be said, that this is part of her challenge, right? And, you know, why are we having this conversation in the year 2024? I wish we weren't. But we are, that she will face some of the sexism, misogyny, call it what you will, that Hillary Clinton faced in 2016. And she faces additional questions because she's a woman of color, and we've never had a woman of color as president of the United States. You know, he faces questions, too, about character. I mean, I just came back from Georgia. I was in Nevada the week before. And there are a lot of voters who, on certain issues, would lean Trump. And then they just say, I can't do it. I can't look my kids in the eye and say, you know, be like him. So I won't do it. So they each have their strengths and their weaknesses. But in the case of the Teamsters, there is, you know, we used to, what's the term we used to, you know, it's guns and gays, right? Or, you know, things like that. There are cultural issues that have divided the labor movement. You know, Vice President Harris can look any union member in America in the eye and say that she's part of an administration that has been the most pro-union, certainly in my lifetime. I've been watching it for 36 years. Without a doubt, the Biden-Harris administration has been that. And so if you're talking about the right to organize, fighting for higher wages, joining people on the picket line, on those uniquely labor issues, this is not a contest. However, you have that problem. And so is it about guns? Is it about social and cultural issues? Is it about the fact that she's a black woman? You know, you'd have to go voter by voter on that one. But the Teamsters did take a poll of their members, and there is a divide. And so the leadership decided, we're going to punt here. You do see, just today, you see a lot of the deputies in the team working for Harris. The black caucus within the Teamsters Union and some of the state organizations, especially in the big battleground states, they're for Harris. So we're going to watch this play out in the final weeks because that is about, you know, they have unique, everybody has contact now through, you know, cell phones and texting and constant messaging and all the like. But those unions do have a little extra juice with their own members. And so we'll watch. It's really a fascinating question for me as we get into these final weeks on how that plays out. >> You know, on CNN, as you're speaking to us, is a screen that says, "Shame on her." In quotes, Senator Manchin says he won't endorse Harris. And the great sin that she has committed is she said she would support gutting the filibuster to protect abortion rights. My analysis, John, I know you're not an editorialist, but I'm allowed to be. Is Joe Manchin's upset because he hasn't been on the news in a couple of months, like he was every day when he was the key vote along with Kirsten Sinema from Arizona there. What's the potential impact in a state where Trump is going to win by a lot, I assume? What's the impact of Manchin's position beyond West Virginia's borders, if any? >> I don't think it's very great. I'm going to cut the senator a little bit of slack in that you're right. He's an attention-seeking missile on many occasions, that is a fair statement. But he also has been very consistent as somebody in the middle about how important he thinks the filibuster is because the threat of being able to just drag on a debate forever does force people to get into a room and make compromises sometimes. Way less than it used to, so I'm not sure he can make that argument with the full moral authority. He used to make it, but he has been very consistent that he thinks it's a mistake to get rid of that, so that is a principle of his that he has stuck with consistently. Does Joe Manchin have a lot of influence on a voter in suburban Philadelphia or Macomb County, Michigan or outside of Phoenix, Arizona that go to decide this election? I don't think so. When you have a Democrat on television saying, "I can't vote for the Democrat," maybe there's a little bit of that. There are a whole lot of Republicans on television saying they can't vote for Trump either, so I would call it a wash at best. I don't think he has much influence outside of West Virginia, and guess what? She's going to lose West Virginia. So let's return to what Marjorie touched upon in passing an attempt by the Trump people to change the rules of how people vote, well, not really how they vote, but how their votes are counted. They failed in Nebraska. Please tell us what they failed at, and they succeeded, at least so far, subject to core challenges in Georgia. Take us through both states, if you would, John King. Well, in Georgia, the new election commission wants to hand count votes, which will slow down the process, and it just, again, adds this element of there must be something wrong, right? We need to hand count the ballots because we can't trust these people. Again, I've been doing this for nearly 40 years, and the men and women, whatever party they're from, they get paid nothing who do this. There's just zero evidence. These are citizens who are doing the Lord's work in our democracy, and it is frustrating to me as a citizen and as a journalist who's watched this process for years to see people attack them constantly because there's just zero evidence, none. In the case of Nebraska, they wanted to, you know, Nebraska and Maine are the two states that award electoral votes, both based on congressional district, and the Omaha area, congressional district, is a Democratic-leaning district. And so, you know, Joe Biden won that district in 2020. And if, with the map today, if Kamala Harris, with the map as it is today, if Kamala Harris wins the Blue Wall States, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, and that one vote out of Nebraska, that's 270. That's exactly 270. She's the next president of the United States. So, the Trump people want to take that away. The time to do that was a year ago, or at least six months ago. I'm going to propose today, Jim, that the Red Sox are a wild card scene because we're going to stop the count at the all-star break. We're not going to count the season because I don't like the way it went. And so, that's what Trump is doing here. I don't like the way that place votes, and now I see how competitive this race is. So, every one electoral vote just might matter. So, I'm going to change the rules, you know, six weeks before the election. If you want to have a debate about changing the rules, let's have a debate about anything. This is America, let's have a debate. But I think most people, it would poke at your sense of fairness to think, "Oh, you know, the election's in six weeks. I don't like this, so I'm going to change the rules." And so, one senator, former Democrat turned Republican. They need his vote, stood up and said, "No, we can't do this." If you want to talk about it after the election, great. If you wanted to talk about it a year ago, great. To do it right now is ridiculous, and it sounds like it's shady, and I'm not going to do it. John, can we go back to Georgia for a second? I get nervous saying what I'm about to say, considering the expertise of the person I'm talking to. So, feel free to tell me I am wrong. My anxiety about Georgia is not the ultimate outcome, but the short-term outcome. It's a neck-and-neck race. Georgia's decision has not been announced. Georgia will decide hypothetically who the next president is. And here's the part where I'm not sure I'm on sturdy turf. That hand-counting in smaller rural districts is an easier proposition. It's much more likely those votes go to Trump. They're all counted, for argument's sake, on election night. And before everything else is counted, in urban areas, which are more likely to be for Harris, Trump announces he's the president of the United States because he's won Georgia. And of course, the end of the story is, three days later, all the urban votes are counted. Harris wins Georgia and she's the legitimate president. Is that a legitimate fear or am I missing something? It's a very legitimate fear. It happened in 2020. Donald Trump came out that night and said he won the election. And he didn't win the election. He came out that night and said it was time to stop the count. We don't do that in a democracy. We don't stop the count. No Democrat can say that. No Republican can say that. No Independent can say that. The reason we're here is because we count votes. That's what makes America, you know, this beacon. There are other democracies around the world. But this is what we do. And so yes, you have every right to fear that. And again, that's why I said we should start conditioning our audience, you know, as many times as we can, that this is likely to take several days again. There's nothing wrong with that. We're counting votes and the process is complicated. And when you have people like Trump and his people in the States screaming, you know, everybody's cheating, then you need more people in the room to watch it. And sometimes that slows it down. If somebody legitimately says, can we take another look at that ballot? Are we sure that is checked, filled out right? Are we sure that person's eligible to vote? There are some fair questions in this process too. Some of what people are saying is just grossly unfair and it's paranoid and there's no facts to support what they say, you know, there's been massive fraud in the past, therefore we have to have this process today. The massive fraud part in the past is just bogus. It is. But there are ways to do this. I think you've seen some election boards around the country. In all county, Arizona comes to mind saying, you know what? If everyone's going to question us, we're going to turn a spotlight. We're going to put more cameras in. We're going to put more glass on the rooms. We're going to let you watch us. We're going to bring people in and watch us. We're going to count the votes fairly. When it comes to Georgia, there'll be some Democrats in Georgia, you know, on the Stacey Abrams campaign supporters in particular who won't agree with what I'm about to say. But I think we saw in the last presidential election, the Secretary of State there and the Republican governor there, both Republicans, the Secretary of State and the Republican governor stand up for the integrity of their process and Joe Biden won the state. So I guess I'm less worried about the end result, but I completely share the idea that it's very possible that at midnight, you know, as Tuesday turns to Wednesday, November 5th turns to November 6th, that Donald Trump comes out yet again and says, "I win. Stop the count." That's not the way it works. It didn't work that way in 2020 and it will not work that way in 2024. We're talking to John King from CNN. So John Kamala Harris has accepted a debate with you guys at CNN in October if Trump doesn't show. What do you do? Do you have any plan, or is it kind of like seat of the pants? I mean, do you just have her interviewed by herself or an empty chair? Our law, Clint Eastwood years ago was conventions where you have to share out the stage. How do you handle that? The empty chair. The Clint Eastwood. We're going to buy Clint Eastwood. Look. That one's above my pay grade. I do think that we should have opportunities for all of the candidates to have town halls if they won't do debates. Now, you know, some people out there would say you're putting your thumb on the scale. You're not if you offer it to everybody. I think, you know, I think that, you know, ABC did a pretty good job with their debate. I think CNN did a very good job with our debate. I think they were both good debates to have. And I think, you know, one of the criticisms you get or one of the concerns you get from voters is, "Why can't you spend more time on climate? Why can't you spend more time on health care? Why can't you spend more time, you know, on taxes and spending? And a whole host of other issues out there that people care about." So I do think that gives you the value if the candidates are willing to do a town hall and maybe deliberately say up front, "We're going to talk about fewer topics because we want to air it out and let it breathe a little." So we'll see what happens if Trump does not come to the CNN debate and some other networks have proposed debates as well and they have every right to do so. At the moment, I don't see another debate. And here's, I'll give you my calculation why, is that, number one, Trump lost that debate and he lost it quite convincingly, he's saying quite the contrary, but he knows he lost that debate and he lost it quite convincingly, he does not want to lose to her again. The reason she wants more debates is to how we started this conversation. She's very competitive right now. People at the first debate did see her at least as Trump's equal and as a president, right? One of the things I hear a lot in my travels from people who really don't want to vote for Donald Trump but who want the border closed and might want their taxes cut or at least have this nostalgic memory of the pre-COVID-Trump economy is well, at least he's done the job. And they've learned how to block the other stuff out. So she wants another debate, her team wants another debate for the stature thing, that she's a president too, right? She's standing next to a former president, she's a president to it. Again, if you look at our poll, Trump has an 11-point edge on the economy, he has a 14-point edge on immigration, he has a seven-point edge on foreign policy. She's a side, I process that as even people who don't agree with him on everything say he's been president, he knows what the job entails, I don't know enough about her to say I could say that about her. That's why she wants more debates, you know, just to present herself as an equal or better on the big issues of being a president. You know, John, since you were kind enough to confirm my worry about Georgia, let me >> I hope it doesn't turn out that way but, yeah, I do too, well, let me tell you something else I'm worried about that you can maybe either confirm or disabuse me. I know Jill Stein a little bit from a ballot campaign, I did in 1990 where she was actually very helpful, a tax ballot question, which is the first time I met her. Since then, she's run for state rep and loss, she's run for governor, gotten very few votes run for president. But we looked up this morning, I know you know this, but I wasn't sure. When you combine votes in Wisconsin when she ran, when Hillary Clinton was running of third party candidates, I think it was Gary Johnson, I'm not sure who it was, but Gary Johnson and her, the margin of Trump's victory there was less than the number of votes they got. So I guess my question is, are the third party candidates that basically receded, particularly once RFK decided to get out of the race, except where it would be helpful for him to stay on the ballot? Are the Steins and the Wests and the others of concern to I guess in the Harris campaign in some of these really tight states like the Rust Belt? Yes, yes, absolutely. In the one state, I would point out more than any is Michigan because Jill Stein has gone out there repeatedly into Dearborn, the Arab American community, and tried to, and directly appealed for their votes and directly criticized Harris and the Biden administration for its support of Israel in continuing to send weapons to Israel throughout the conflict with Hamas. And so if you look at the national polls, Chase Oliver is the libertarian candidate, Jill Stein is the green party candidate, and most national polls, that's now down to about two or three percent combined, one gets two and one gets one. So nationally, it's not as big of an impact, although I would argue in a 50/50 race, it has the potential, right, it has any anything, anybody who's getting above 1% does have the potential. But Trump has a ceiling in a lot of these states of around 48%, maybe it's 49%, Harris needs to get above that, so anything that's tugging at that affects her. It's much different, the third party candidates are having much less influence since Kennedy dropped out, and Kennedy of course dropped out after a whole bunch of stories that were starting to implode his support anyway. But I would say in this, you're right about, if you talk to Hillary Clinton about this, she will tell you, you know, she'll also say Pennsylvania, but the blue wall, she'll say she lost the blue wall because of the third party candidates. In this campaign, because I've been to Michigan so many times, and you have the combination of the youth vote and the Arab American vote, that's where Jill Stein is a giant threat. Nationally know, but in one or two of these battleground states, absolutely. - Targeted to John King from CNN. - You know, we're getting a lot of people that are mad at Sean O'Brien here, that are texting in, and one gentleman says, "I'm with the United Brotherhood of Carpenters Union. Most of the members I speak to are pro-Trump when they actively acknowledge he is not four unions, so I have no idea why." And on the 11-point spread, you said, Trump has an economy, and one of those polls you just referenced, John, are some of our, our textures are suspicious. They think that that's not really about the economy, it may be about something else like not wanting a woman or a black woman to be president. - Well, what's the matter, what's the motivation? - I think it's possible, I think that's possible, some of it's that, but I'll tell you from my travels, Jim and Marjorie, I think it's flipped the word economy, set that aside, and put it in cost of living. And I think that people, you know, again, you can have an economist come in and say, you know, maybe the Biden spending right after COVID, you know, ticked up, it was participated in inflation. Just like the Trump tax cuts might have juiced the economy, he inherited a great economy from Barack Obama. Trump tax cuts probably juiced it, they also exploded the deficit. You can have an economist come in and go through all these things way smarter than I am. But when you travel and talk to people, you will have even small business people who are voting for Harris, say, you know, my supply costs are still high, and I can't pass that on to my customers. You will meet with families who are actually doing pretty well in good union jobs, say, in Las Vegas, right, who've had a third kid, and they can't get a bigger house, even though their property values have gone way up and they can make a nice profit on their house, they can't buy in the same neighborhood because the other, the bigger houses have gone up in value too, and interest rates are still high, and they can't afford to, you know, move up in their own neighborhood and they like their schools and they like their neighbors. So for, there's different layers of cost of living in different parts of the country, and I think a lot of people who live in Washington and New York who live comfortable lives don't process this as much as they need to as the potential of an impact. And she is part of an administration that, again, an economist might, you know, say, okay, give Biden this much blame, and the rest of it is just the global economy. You can make a very good case. Yes, this is a global issue because of Ukraine, because of Middle East turmoil, because of energy and all these other issues, and the United States economy is doing way better by leaps and bounds than any other economy around the world. One of the, one of the problems Harris has on this issue is that because President Biden is just not an able communicator right now, he has not made this argument for the last three and a half years that I know things are hard, but look around the world. We're doing a lot better than anybody else. Well, I have to say, she also blew it, in my opinion, in that debate where she did crush Trump when that first question was asked about are you better off today than you were four years ago. It was so obvious to me, the question was coming, and the obvious answer was most of us are, but clearly a lot of Americans are not, and we're going to direct our attention at those people. And not just that. I mean, acknowledge that. I'm sorry. I mean, we have been talking about housing here in Boston because it's taken off for a while, but all across the country now, we've moved out, got second houses, post-pandemic, and housing basically has gone through the roof in many sections of the country, and it's really incredible that it's only in the last few months that it's become a discussion in our national politics, how we don't have enough housing, how we need millions and millions of new housing. It's almost like Hillary Clinton missed it the first time around, where it's starting to be a problem, and they missed it again this time. It's odd. The voters are always way ahead of the politicians, so I'm gifted that I've been able to travel this year because I think I'm a better reporter, and I think I have a better eye on things than I have had in the last two cycles, just because I'm out there talking to decent, hard-working Americans of all political persuasions who, you know, Trump voters and Harris voters and undecided voters talk about housing. Trump voters and Harris voters and undecided voters talk about grocery prices. One thing that hasn't come up in this campaign is all voters all across us all talk about, you know, my kids are still recovering from the isolation of being schooled during COVID, and no candidate has asked about that. The voters are always way ahead of the politicians, way ahead of certainly the town I work in. John King, speaking of talking to real voters, no one does it better than you, it's a pleasure to see you. We'll talk to you next week. Thanks so much. Thank you very much, John. It'll be five weeks next Tuesday. That's five weeks. Oh, God. He was speaking with John King. His chief national course is finally behind two great reporting projects this election cycle all over the map in the battleground. Thanks to John King. Six weeks from today. I know. I know, God. Oh, my God. Up next. A self-check out check in. So one Olympic athlete had her life destroyed, lost her job because she forgot to scan some asparagus at hand at the self-check out, and Walmart actually wants to charge you to use the self-check out. Imagine that. What's up with that? Call or text us about how are you feeling these days about self-checkout? You're listening to Boston Public Radio 897GBH live from the Boston Public Library and streaming at youtube.com/GBHNews. Welcome back to Boston Public Radio Jim Brody and Marjorie and live at the library streaming youtube.com/GBHNews. Apparently, if you innocently forgot to scan some produce at the self-checkout line at Walmart, you might be charged with a crime and lose your job. As Marjorie said, such is the case of this former Olympian, this is who this is, Megan Pettipes, right? Yeah. Yeah. Terrible. Who had her bag searched by Walmart security and she failed to scan some food items. Police found three, just, well, this is not nothing. Police found three disposable vapes, two unopened blister packs of anti-nausea medication. She was charged with theft. You know why? Because she is a thief. Well, they didn't charge them. Forget her. No, no, no. She didn't realize she thought they were produce and she thought that they marked them. And the vapes had nothing to do with why she was arrested. Yes, she was. You was stealing the... Okay, forget that then. Okay. So rubbing the lines to ask you, is the supposed convenience of the self-checkout worth, in case of Megan Pettipes, going to jail? And regardless of that, do you care about putting human cashiers out of work? Our number is 877-301-8970. As Marjorie said, it's our semi-regular self-checkout check-in. Do you use it? Do you hate it? To be honest, occasionally a few items skip the scanner and end up in your bag. 877-301-8970. Well, that's what they're talking about in these normal middle-class moms and dads, grandmas and grandpas are suddenly turning into shoplifters, because they can't resist the temptation to try to slide something through the self-checkout kind of deal. We have to have my favorite sound now, though. What is it? Well, we have two of them. One is from a CVS. This is what you get is CVS, the robot voice, if you cannot work the scanner, here it is. Please wait. System processing. Yeah. Everybody hates that. Okay. Let's go on. Okay. And then this is from Walmart, apparently. Another message you've heard as "Nauseum." "Unexpected item in bagging area. Remove this item before continuing." I'd like to say to us who make these things. And then you hear them over and over and over again, and the poor people that work there probably hear these things five hundred times a day. And if you notice at CVS, sometimes you can't tell, which is the bagging area. I can never tell. And which is the non-bagging area. I'm so glad you said that. Why don't they put a sign that says "bagging area"? Why? Because they get off on it. That's why they like when people are miserable, and by the way, we should explain the Walmart thing you mentioned, or I mentioned, or somebody. Yeah. Walmart, to use the self-checkout, I didn't know this till this morning, you have to become a member. And the theory behind this is, if you pay to become a member, you are less likely to steal from Walmart. I don't know why, than if you're just a casual Walmart customer, and not a member. Can you explain that to me or no? I don't know. Maybe you feel some allegiance to Walmart, you don't want to screw them or something like that. I don't know. 873 and 1-8970. How do you feel about self-checkout? Do you use it? Now if I have a bunch of stuff, I mean, who wants to go with a whole character of stuff? I love doing it. I love the ding when you get it right, when you put the code and go ding. No, I found that, in some places, they're limiting you to 10, I know, 15 items or less than that. Wow. Is it fewer or less? Fewer items. Fewer than 15 items. Fewer than 15 items. Less is a quantity. Yes, fewer than 15 items. It's a big thing with me. Fewer or less. I think that's a big thing. You don't want to be behind somebody in the self-checkout who's got a full carriage. Can I tell you something? They're all day. There's another issue. I think you have an obligation as a human being, not just you, all of us who care about other people. If you go to self-checkout, the one thing you have to do, look to see if there is a line at a human cashier. That's right. And if there's no line in a human cashier, you have a moral imperative to go get in the line. Is that not correct? You are really clever. Or pretend you didn't see her. That's the other way you can do it. I don't know if it's usually a moral imperative. I think it's a moral imperative. I think it's a moral imperative. There's nobody in the line with the real person. They're going to go fast. They're going to go there rather than the self-checkout. Anyway, 877-301-8970, Silas from Falmouth, you are first on the self-checkout hour. Hey, Silas. Hey, guys. How's it going? Excellent. So, I just wanted to say that I don't like the self-checkout. I think that it takes jobs away from humans. Also, I don't like how condescending the robot's sound if you do something wrong. They really do. What's the item in the bagging area? Please remove all bagged items. Exactly. Don't you do it. And you can't tell where the bagging area is, as I just said. Here's the robot voice from CBS one more time. Don't go away, Silas. I have a question for you. Please help. Unexpected item in bagging area. Remove this item before continuing. Okay, fine. So, Silas, even though you hate it, do you use it? I will. Sadly, yes. Well, I'm so glad to hear you say that because I hate it and I use it too. So I'm glad we're in the same boat. Silas, thank you very kindly for your call. We appreciate it. 877-301-8970, you raised an issue, I wasn't going to raise today. Why is it that they don't have a sign all the time? They're saying, which is the bagging area? Exactly. And which is the other area? Exactly. And it has to be because they want you to be confused. I don't know. Because sometimes they have the CVS bags, you know, those plastic bags, they're not supposed to have those plastic bags, but they're reusable, I guess, they claim. And you'd think, okay, that's the bagging area, because the bags are there, then you put stuff in the other side and you find out that you are wrong. You ever intentionally stolen anything? When I was a little girl, I stole a bagged. No, not when you were a little guy. I know that. As an adult. No. Why? Before you do that. I don't think I could be a radio doctor. Wait, that's the only reason you do it. If I was a thief. Well, no, you're not supposed to do it. Well, it's a little late to say that. I would not want to. Okay. Here's another one for you. Fire like the Olympic star there. Okay. Wait a second. So you're at, let's say, Whole Foods. Yes. Okay. And you have an orange. You have to type in orange. You do. And when you type it in, two things come up. Yeah. Organic orange, which is like $42 a pound, and a regular orange, which is like $1.89 a pound. Yup. So you say it's a regular orange one. It's an organic orange. I never go with the produce into the self-checkout. Is that really true? No, it takes so much time. You have to press too many buttons. Wow. I go with things that are easy to scan. So you never intentionally steal anything from the self-checkout? Is that what you're saying? I have not stolen anything. Would you like to make a confession? No. I don't do it because of my job. I don't do it because it is morally reprehensible to do. Okay, Jim. That's your story. You're sticking to it. Jo and the car. I occasionally said something was not organic. I watched it twice. Okay. There's a political statement. Okay. Jo and the car. Jo and the car. Thank you for calling. Hey. Hi. Hi. Thanks. Big fans. Thank you. So I used to live in La Jolla. Oh, wow. You know, La Jolla and they had a blonde supermarket chain out there. And they took the self-service checkouts out. Because there were too many thieves? Because too many rich people were stealing. Yeah, rich people were stealing too much. Is that really true or that's your interpretation? Is that true? No, they say. That's what they told me. I said, where does that go? They said too many problems. Yeah. That's what they claim. I love that. That's great, Jo. Thanks for the call. You know, they do other things. Like they'll say they're buying carrots, which are cheaper. When really they're buying avocados or something that's more expensive. They'll claim the produce is something else. When they press those little buttons. It's the same thing you know that, Marjorie. Well, I'm reading it right here. The independent. Oh, sure you are. Talking about that. And they also talk about how a lot of, as Jo just said, middle class or even wealthy people are stealing over there. It's a thrill, Jim. They want to get the thrill from stealing at the self-checkout. But you know something? I guess they have a big time problem in the Netherlands with loneliness. No. Oh, a lot of Europe is addressing that. Remember there's a minister of loneliness or something in the UK? Great thing. So, introduced in 2019 by the Dutch supermarket chain Jumbo as part of the government's one against lowering this campaign, they have chatty checkouts, slow shopping lanes for customers who aren't in a rush and would prefer to have assistance from a person and chat up the person when they are checking out. Well, Rita, I read that story too. Rita, the next paragraph. What's the next paragraph? The customer ended up dating the self-checkout thing, which is really quite a lovely story. I think they're with a real person because they want to chat with a real person because they're low. I understand the concept. Okay. We've talked about robots, which actually make it, when the choice is between a robot and no bot as opposed to, I mean, you don't have a choice of a human. Right. The robot is, I guess, I mean, it took me a long time to get there, better than nothing, you know? Lisa and Smithfield Rhode Island. Hey, Lisa. What's up? Hi. I'm in North Smithfield. Where? I wanted to. I wanted to, I love you guys, wanted to say that I absolutely, the self-checkouts. Nine times I would come that I use them. There's some kind of a problem. Then you'd have to wait for the person to come get and, you know, to help you in that area. And it's not me. It's usually in a machine. And then also that roaming robot through the store, every time I go buy it, I want to kick it. What's the name of that thing? It's driving me nuts. Oh, I don't know. The thing with the googly eye. Marty, thank you. Marty, no. It has googly eyes. Hate it. Marty, I hate it. I hate it. I hate it. I want to kick it. I would never do that. Well, don't kick it. Lisa, thank you for the call. A couple of textures were not very kind to me. Yes. And an anonymous texture says, "Margry never stole from Wawa." That's correct. What is the texture into me? Well, the use stole from Wawa, which Jim mysteriously lost his job at Wawa. Excuse me, I did not lose my job. I resigned. Resigned. When they were ready to make the, I told this a million times, including the air, I was the assistant manager for the Wawa on the University of Pennsylvania campus. They said the regional manager came in, said they'd been theft. They were going to surprise the employees the next day and make them take lie detector tests, but they said to show that we're even handed, we're going to make you as the assistant manager take one as well, and I decided as an active solidarity, I resigned. Now, Brandon Jorsesser says Jim doesn't steal from the self, check out. He feels guilty. He already ate the pre-made food, which sadly is true. And by the way, apparently they have a name for these people that seemingly, uh, well intentioned patrons who steal, regularly swipers. Wow. That's what they call them. Yeah. They would not steal using any other techniques that says criminology to study them. They're not interested in putting chocolate down their pants or a piece of steak in their coat, but they have grown, they've just become used to stealing since the introduction of self service checkouts, which is a previous call that says the reason why some places are getting, getting rid of them, Jim. So if you ever put chocolate in your pants, speaking of that, yeah? No, I'm not. You have chocolate in your pants, Jim? I have many times. Actually, who hasn't put Jamie? You put chocolate in your pants? Of course he has. Okay. Why wouldn't you? Well, at least I have $4.95. Thank you for calling. Thank you, Lisa. I find it terribly annoying that I'm now working for this company and they're not paying me or giving me a discount. And then I don't understand why there's 45 unsaf aisles and there's one aisle who you can do it yourself. You know, Lisa, I don't know if people know what you're saying. Dennis from Beverly, who texts that agrees with you, I will not use self check out until I get the employee discount, meaning you're doing the work of somebody who they pay to work at the company. Why don't you get a break? Correct. And then if you go to Walmart, they treat you like a thief and they want to see your receipt. Like you're, I'm good enough to work for you, but I'm not, you're not going to pay me. I love your attitude, Lisa. Thank you for the call. A textor says if you're a member at Walmart, they have your credit card on file and can charge you for anything they see you walk out of the store with, with a camera. I think they're watching us at the checkouts, right? You can see yourself. I'm sure they're fabulous. Well, at least the CVS, there's not a Walmart around here. Remember, Tom and Eno didn't want them to come into town? I remember, yeah. Because they were non-union. I think that was the reason. Was it not? I believe so. Yeah. But you're on the camera at the checkout. Well, except there's a way to fool the camera too. My experience has been, I don't have none of this personally, if you do put chocolate in your pants, the camera trains on Matt, and as it was exactly, Maggie on Route 2, your next on Boston Public Radio, we're talking about self-checkout, the pros and mostly the cons. Sorry. Hi, Jim and my jury. It's pickleball Maggie. Oh, hey, pickleball Maggie. How are you? All right. I love self-check. Now, probably the reason is because I'm a control freak, and I like bagging my protein and pricing it ahead of time, and getting to the self-check, and doing my thing, and making sure that the bill can, the big can, and I'm starting to stay back. And I do have a question, the places that I go to that have self-check have people who monitor the self-check. So if they got rid of the self-check, when those people just move back to be cashiers? Well, that's an excellent question, Maggie, but I have to say it's too deep for us to be able to answer, but it's an excellent one for the listeners. Maggie, thank you. Keep at that pickleball thing of yours. You know, appreciate it. Jen from Wellesley says she loves checkout because she doesn't like strangers breathing and touching on her stuff. My stuff. You know, when Maggie said, "Don't you like to bag your own stuff?" I'm not an anti-bagger. No, I don't. Don't you like your stuff bagged in a particular way? No, the baggers do a much better job than I do. Yeah. Chris and Rosie says, "Self-checkout is like apple picking. You're doing their job for them, and it's annoying, but don't tell my wife because we're going apple picking this weekend, and a lot of people don't like apple picking. You know, you say you don't like bagging your own stuff? I don't. You and I are probably going to be doing that in a couple of years. I'm serious. Stop it. Well, they'll change me to the correct technique. Why are you not? I can't believe that I've never heard of a person. Because the baggers do it better. The baggers do it better. Listen to this. That's totally true. I have honey crisp taste on a red delicious budget. I don't steal. I don't steal. However, I may or may not select the cheaper option of produce. Well, as I was talking about, the orange organic and the orange that is an organic. Yeah. Don't they have little tags to say if they're organic on the side? Yeah. I think so. Samantha from Medford. What do you think, Samantha? Hi, Samantha from Medford. All right. I have a good taste for you as to why can you self-check out? What was that? I was at an unknown poll group recently and I'm on my way to self-check out. I get a woman saying, "Come to my aisle. It's open and I'll take care of you." She's very chatty. She's pretty sereneed up incorrectly, can't figure out what she did wrong, can't void it on her own register and ended up finishing the transaction, giving me the receipt and sent it to the customer service to have it taken care of. Oh, God. If there's no worse experience than that, then they make a mistake, which most of them don't and then you have to. But that's aberrational, Samantha. That doesn't happen every time, right? It doesn't happen every time, but I will say I recognize this woman and shouldn't have known not to go to her checkout aisle because it's happened to you a couple of times before. So, you know, bad on me, but also a reason for me to keep going and stop that. Samantha, you're a woman with strong opinions. Thank you for the call. You're embarrassed as a faithful market basket. You know what market basket does not have? A self checkout. Self checkout. An anonymous textor says, "As a market basket shopper, Jim of all people should know that self checkout is blasphemous. Just another way for retail companies to cut costs without increasing employee pay or passing the savings on to consumers until stores start paying me for my labor in the self checkout line or at least offering a discount, I will pass. I'm assuming, I don't know this to be the case, you know that there's a very strong relationship between the guy who owns market basket and his workers, as was evidenced by that situation 10 years ago when even his managers stopped working in solidarity with the owner versus his cousin or whatever, I'm sure they don't have self checkout because they think it's unfair to the people who they pay who were cashiers. That's why the employees love Walmart. Not Walmart. Not Walmart. Not Walmart. Textors is pointing out that the screens are full of germs, Jim. You don't touch a screen. I hadn't thought of that. You don't touch a screen. What do you do with your finger? Oh, that part. Yeah, you do touch it. You open the doors with your elbow in some places. Sometimes I do. So why can't you hit the screen with your elbow? Well, it's a little bit more difficult. It is more difficult. You know what you're willing, well, I do sometimes, I ask Jamie to come along and hit the keys for me and he's really, he's very good about that. You take him in the supermarket with you, hits the keys, then you can say he can go back to work. He's so generous. He really is. You stand in Melrose. Ending cashiers would be a blessing. They were the unsung heroes of COVID. They were. So true. So true. Locking someone in a position for eight hours plus watching every motion they make is demeaning. I've seen them treated with total disrespect and they have to take it for $12 an hour. Are we going to be up to $15? I think we are. Didn't we reach $15 already? I don't know. I think I'm pretty sure we got to the... Are we at $15? I'm pretty sure we do. Still $15. So Boston Public Radio, we're doing our sort of semi-annual discussion about self check out. Hey there, Ali. Hi. Hi guys. How are you? We're good. This is like, you know, I really hate self check out. Why is that? The reason why is I have convinced that it takes away drive from people and, you know, we need more drive. How about this? Like you said Jim, my goodness, every register is, it would be, they can find people, I don't think that, why is it there, you can see them. Oh, we can't find people. I think that's BS. Yeah. Yeah. Come over here. Ali, we got to let you go. You made your point well. The connection is atrocious, but you made your point very well. Two things. One, the minimum wage in Massachusetts in January of last year, thanks to that ballot campaign, went to $15 an hour, it applies to most employees. Now, which of our coworkers used to work at Market Basket? I think Zoe. That would be Zoe. Yes. Zoe writes this, Market Basket's official line on self check out. They don't do it because the company, this is fabulous, quote, values human to human interactions and prides itself on just people taking care of people. Arthur DeMullis would often issue edicts like this, including he did not want the cashiers to say no worries, and I love this, in response to the thank yous, we had to say you're welcome. Oh, I like that. That's pretty great. I like that. That is really great. There's another Market Basket fan, John from Oxford. He says, I never use self checkouts, Market Basket, which manages to employ an amount of people equivalent to the size of General Patton's third army, yet it still has the lowest prices and no self checkouts as we've been talking about. That's a wonderful point. Yeah. It does have the lowest prices. It does. And it has really good stuff in there. Well, not to mention, people are getting back to the person, the person, the things that he was writing about. You don't go off and I go as you know, every week, at least once a week. People are so nice to you and so welcoming, and even if they're not sure that they remember you, they treat you like you're a returning customer, which is actually quite wonderful. All right. Christina from Woods.Connecticut says I'm wrong, but the bagging platforms at CVS stores are clearly marked. Now, maybe they are in Connecticut. Did you notice they're not marked around here? I believe they're marked in Russian. So that's the problem. Patty and JP, you're next on Boston Public Radio. What's your deal? Well, I happen to love self checkouts. Oh. Yes, I do. And I often, matter of fact, don't say I like them the best ones, or wegmans. But I don't like waiting in line and then go through with someone doing it for me and then have them be snippy or nasty and they don't know how to bag things. And so I do it myself, wegmans actually added, when they first had them introduced them, they added eight more a while after that. And I'll almost, I was full because people do use them all the time. I can do, I can also, this is the big thing. I'm older and I'm not really strong and I can make the bag the size I want. I live in the third floor. I have to carry them up when I get home. And sometimes you'll say to them, please put the heavy things in one bag. One heavy thing. And each bag. And they put three large bottles of juice in one. Hate that. Yeah, and I can barely get it into the cart. So I can bring my own bags and do it the way I want. And as far as taking jobs away, I know wegmans, they can never even find people. They're probably begging them to come work there. So I don't think, and most of the other stores I've seen, I don't think they have enough to check out people. So I don't think that's a problem. Taking people's jobs away. But I find them, some of them are annoying if they're not set up right or working. Like they have, they software is not good. Yeah. Yeah. How do you cover about 42 topics there, brilliantly? Thank you very much. That's terrific. An anonymous textor makes a great point. How could the store complain about incorrect pricing when I check out? They gave me zero training, which is a wonderful point actually, I like that. One textor says, "Hannifer, seems to be running some sort of psychology experiment by leaving one register open and making everyone check themselves out with full carriages, so I swipe." And we have another textor, Jim. You talked about how you resigned from Wawa the day before they were bringing the lie detector text. That's correct. In solidarity with these coworkers. Well, this textor says, "Jim's like just like that sheriff. He pled not guilty. Then when the evidence came in, he resigned." Well, I was not charged with anything, by the way, and I was a pretty good assistant manager. By the way, I was an assistant manager of a little tiny supermarket on campus. That's terrific, Jim. I was pretty good. I'm very proud of you. I was pretty good at that. Those are the days. I was pretty good at that. Okay. Okay. It is amazing how many stakes did end up in my apartment. I have to say that is, considering I had very little money, it was amazing. Now here, I always like to guess where Jared is. Do you think Jared, I would say Jared, the last time he self-checked out was maybe 2002? I don't know. Not a chance. I see him as a self-checker. Not a chance. Okay. Let's hear. Right the tie. Yes or no? How about Jared? Okay. Can I have it two ways? Yeah. Sure. So in Boston, often, self-checkout. But I spent a lot of time in New Hampshire in the summer, and so I stop at Market Basket all the time to come home, and I love it. It's like going into a Hollywood movie set because they're all in their aprons. The stores are perfect. You have to go through the checkout line. It's like being in Mayberry in the Hollywood set. And everybody has a story, and half of the checkout people want to be comedians, and I think it's really entertaining. So does Aunt B work at Market Basket in New Hampshire? I think so. She does. Absolutely. I love that. That's very quaint. It is. It's lovely. Okay. By the way, before you tell us about the show, they don't have self-checkout in the New Hampshire stores either. I assume they don't have many stores, right? Absolutely not. That's pretty great, okay. Market Basket also answered their phone. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. They answer their phones no annoying prompts. Oh my gosh. By the way, how huge is that? That's huge. I would never call them, so I don't know. I was on hold whenever mine. Don't forget my stuff. That's a little late. Go ahead, Jared. Too late. Go ahead. What's the whatever? The culture show today. We're talking about Mamma Mia. Do you know that this is the 25th anniversary of Mamma Mia, the musical, before it became the film? So we speak with Philip Deloitte. She is the one, the British theater maker, who had always spent her time doing Wagner's ring cycle and Shakespeare before she took on this project and made it what it is. So she shares her memories of creating that. So do you know who the biggest fan of ABBA maybe in the western world is? I do, Chris. Chris from Uther. Chris from Uther. How sad is that? What else do you have on the show? How could you not love the hour? Okay, what else? And Betty Lou, who has written a new cookbook called The Chinese Way, that teaches basically Americans how to raid your pantry and it's very easy to cook the Chinese Way, even if you only have maple syrup and spam, and we'll look at Paul Revere, who at 61 years old basically spent all of his money so he could create a copper enterprise. Donald Trump today said Paul Revere is doing a great job, by the way, just for me to know. Because he's still lying. Google that if you haven't figured it out and you'll understand what I'm talking about. Hey Jared there, have fun on your show, we'll be listening three minutes and ten seconds. I thought it was a lovely story about New Hampshire. It was? Yes. Lovely. It was nice, yeah. Of the supermarkets up there. Thank you, Jared. Nice to see you. It's good to see you. We hadn't thought of this one. The texture just said this. Self-checkouts become the playground for people with kids and the kids are all fighting to scan the bar items. Oh, they love to scan. They love to scan. It slows everybody down. Okay, I tell you, Jim. That's a great end. I think we got to the bottom of that. Once you tell us that story, you weren't going to tell us. No, I'm not going to tell you. I don't think so. Anyway, thank you for listening to our edition of Boston Public Radio. Thanks to everybody who came down at the Boston Public Library. Thank you all for coming to the show. You can keep up with this 24/7 way of our podcast. We have a new podcast. We do? Yeah, we have to look at it about the TikTok. No, that's called TikTok. That's not a podcast. Oops, not a podcast. Okay. Our TikTok page at Boston Public Radio. And that's got fighting about how many people need tickets or jokes about not being tickets or something like that. Yeah. Tomorrow we're going to be back here at the Boston Public Library with Jibon in person. Yeah. Harvard National Security Expert Juliet Clamp. NBC tends to all come. I'm media Maven Nn, Naturals, Simon Gowery. Oh, what a show. Who tells us stuff that isn't about politics, which is great. I want to thank our crew. So, I'm Matthew Annan Conley, Nicole Garcia, who did the TikTok. He had a loss. Our engineer, John Nicole Parker. Our executive producer, Jamie Bologna. Special thanks to BPL staff, Maddie Gire. Bill Francis, Sandra Lopez Burke. Juan Jose Cadenia. And Olivia Corcio. Thanks to our host, the newsfeed cafe and across the street of the Lennox Hotel. Well, stay tuned to the culture show with Jared Bonn, which starts right after the two o'clock news. You're in A97GBH yesterday. Can you call me in my car and tell me to story to you almost over on air? Because I'm sure it's... Absolutely. It's very... It's very... You'll be disappointed. I will. Can you embellish it a little bit? I'll try to embellish it. Okay, fine. I'm Jim Brody. See you tomorrow. See you tomorrow. Hope you can tune in tomorrow and have a great afternoon. See you. 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