Boston Public Radio Podcast
Best Of BPR 9/18: A BPR Busing Panel
Today:We talk with two people who were bused in the city of Boston -- a decision 50 years ago with lasting impacts -- Michael Curry, later head of the Boston NAACP, and Kim Janey, who would go on to become the city’s first Black, first female Mayor. Joining them in conversation is Ted Landsmark, whose image came to define the moment by way of the Pulitzer Prize winning photo “The Soiling of Old Glory.” He’s now a distinguished professor at Northeastern.
- Broadcast on:
- 18 Sep 2024
- Audio Format:
- other
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Today on the podcast, this month marks 50 years since forced busing began in Boston, shaping the city's history and affecting the lives of thousands of children. We talk with two people who experienced busing firsthand. Michael Curry, later head of the Boston NAACP, and Kim Janie, who would go on to become the city's first black, first female mayor. And Ted Lancemark, whose image came to define the moment by way of the pulling surprise-winning photo, the spoiling of old glory. He's now a distinguished professor at Northeastern. If you don't want to miss this discussion, here's the show. Michael, let's start with you talking about little kids. I think you were seven when you would call going past the Museum of Science and taking a ride into Charlestown. Yeah, I do. You know, some things are seared in your mind. And I remember the nervousness of my mother because she was sending us off and there were some mothers who decided not to send their kids into school. I was in that second wave of what I believe was like 25,000 students, 18, 15, 18,000 in that first wave. And our parents were courageous enough, or if not crazy enough, to put us on those buses, but there were meetings and there were sort of prep sessions on what we would expect in that journey. I remember the fear. And I know it's hard to believe that a seven-year-old can remember fear, but we do. I remember having the duck down. I remember peeking out the window and saying what appeared to be hundreds of people lining the streets as we made that journey over to Charlestown, angry at kids. And I'll never forget it. So Mayor Janney, Charlestown, I think was your destination too, 11 years old. What was your recollection of those times? Very similar to what Michael shared, very young. My parents kept me home for the first couple of weeks. They did not agree with the Garrity decision. They did not want to bust me outside of my neighborhood. They felt as if I was getting a good quality education in Roxbury. And like Michael, I can remember the fear. I remember the angry mobs. I remember the distorted faces of the people in the mobs. I remember the police escorts. I remember having to sometimes leave out the back door of school to avoid some sort of riot in the streets. Very, very difficult time for children to experience. What do you remember about being told about why specifically why you weren't going to school those first few weeks? Well, my parents didn't agree. If I'm not getting a better education by being bused to Charlestown, what was the point? And they said that because you was 11 year old. Yes. They said that. And I was obviously not wanted in that school. So why subject your child to that kind of violence, to that angry mob, especially when they weren't going to get a better education? You know, that's one of the points you've heard over and over again. When you read about the history of busing, kids were going from bad schools to bad schools. And the black schools were obviously worse. But the white schools weren't so great, especially in South Boston. But Ted Lenzmark, everybody probably has seen the picture of you. You're in an off-white, three-piece suit looking extremely professional, 29 years old. And all of a sudden, Joseph Rakes, a kid from Charlestown, comes at you. What happened? Well, ironically, I was on my way to affirmative action reading to try to open up more jobs, construction jobs in the south end in Roxbury, to people from the neighborhoods and particularly people of color. And I was simply walking across City of Alpaza when I encountered this group, really mob, of high school kids who turned a corner. I didn't see them. And they had just come out of a meeting with the counselor, Louise Day Hicks, who had fired them up about race. And they were on their way to the courthouse where Judge Garrity held court. And they encountered me. And I was the first black person they saw. And they decided, a few of them, that they wanted to kill me. We have -- I'm sorry. Yeah, I was going to say, talk about presence of Maya, 29 years old. We do have sounds, Jim started to say, when you were speaking to reporters right after the attack and you had a broken nose, your face was covered in bandages. This happened in 1976 and this is sounded recorded by GBH for the ten o'clock news. Here it is. Safety is not the issue. Bussing is not the issue. The issue involves the participation of citizens of color in all levels of business and government to respect the life of this city. And by that, I need participation on an equal basis, and not just as human rights officers and affirmative action officers, and not just as shields to cover the white power structures and difference towards communities of color. The issue of racism must no longer be subordinated in this city. Boy, the more things change. Ted Landmark, I believe Stanley Foreman, maybe in a joint interview with you, talked about the reason he thought something was going to happen that he had to capture was because there were almost all white people, all of a sudden this black man, you, walks onto the scene. Do you remember what you felt at the time? Well, I was running late for a meeting, and so I really wasn't thinking about encountering a crowd of angry young people, and I didn't see them coming because of the way city hall plaza is structured. They were coming from around the corner. So I wasn't thinking about that, but the moment it happened, of course, I was in a state of shock because it was one of the last things I would have expected to happen at that moment. You know, we just heard your colleagues on both sides were 7 and 11 when busing happened. You were a young, skillful lawyer. What was your reaction to Judge Garrity's decision when it came down? I wondered why it was that the focus had been only on Boston proper, and why the suburbs hadn't been included. There were obviously efforts being made to expose young kids of color to different people, to whom those kids might aspire to be, and the class differences between the white kids and the black kids in Roxbury were not all that great, but the class differences between all the kids in the city and many of the kids in the suburbs were substantial. You know, Michael Curry, you mentioned being 7 years old going to Charleston. We've all encountered, you know, kid little kids, they don't want to go to school because they've got a stomach ache or they've got some fake thing going on. I can't imagine what it was like, tell us, going back day 2, day 5, day 20. Yeah, I mean, one is, I remember the tension my mother had because my mother was an activist in the traditional sense, but she was an activist, right? She was conscious enough, she went to school committee hearing meetings since I was a child. She would show up at the school if there was an incident. There was an incident that I often share where at one point something happened in school that they called my mother. I remember my mother coming up to school to get me, and she tells us there was a racist incident that happened in school. So I remember vividly standing out in front of the Warren Prescott in Charleston where a big hefty white guy was yelling at us, calling us the "inward" and swearing at us, and my mother was standing toe to toe with him, that's the Alabama, Birmingham and her, that she felt like she should go verbally back and forth with him, but I remember being by her side and being afraid. When I think about that, it took Kim's earlier point about the disparities in the school and some black schools and neighborhoods had quality education. I didn't come from one of those, I went to the worst schools prior to that as well. And the reality is two-thirds of the funding, you know, black schools were receiving two-thirds of the funding, even the poor white schools were receiving. So the reality is the whole notion was that I was going to Charlestown to get a better education, but yet, how can you get an education when you're in fear when there's racial tension in the school coming from teachers, in part, from other students, in part, who don't want you there? And you're dealing with trauma, because the trauma of going through the gauntlet of hate that we had to go through doesn't make you capable of focusing on math and English and reading for the rest of the day. So I'm thankful that I had a strong mother who was willing to take the bus to Charlestown at that time when I think about that. She took the bus to Charlestown to come get me. So how did you get an education like that? I mean, how long did you last? So my mother eventually ended up pulling me out because of the attention I had and the experiences I had at the school. So it was maybe, I don't remember how long I was there, I ended up being transferred to the Jackson Mann School. And Brighton. And Brighton, which was a much more diverse school. But she was deeply disturbed and I think she probably even thought about her own safety because she knew that if my mother was ready to set it off, as we were saying, I never heard. And if she had to come to school to get me, there was risk for her, too. You weren't, I'm sorry. I was just going to say, Mayor Cheney, and your parents said that the heck with this, too, is I understand. Yes, I did two years. Yeah. Two years at the Edwards Middle School in Charlestown. Fortunately for me, my parents, you know, I come from a family of educators. By this time, in fact, September 12, 1974 is my father's very first day teaching in Boston Public Schools. Oh, wow. And so for me, I did two years at the Edwards and fortunately for me, my parents kept advocating and they moved me and transferred me to Metco. So I became a Metco kid as of eighth grade through 12th grade. Which have been created eight years before the clarity decision. Right. And really important because I think we're talking a lot about the parity decision. We're talking a lot about busing. It's important for us all to sit with and center the women, like Michael's mom, who had been fighting for decades, even centuries prior to this. So this is, it's 50 years now that we are marking this anniversary, but this fight is centuries old in terms of black parents seeking better education for their kids. And just when we think about the racial imbalance act and the legislature that teed up Garrity's decision to Kim's point and she's a master historian of this, the advocacy of parents to teed up that legislation, and then the advocacy of organizations like Civil Rights and others, the phenomenal leaders that even created that moment. We forget about them. But they created this conversation about equal education, an iconic picture in 1965 of black folks marching down the street around desegregating our schools. We've got to remember that too. You know, we should, you mentioned in passing, but I don't think it should be in passing about an alternative. Describe your schooling situation Mayor Janie before your bus to Charleston. Exactly. And so prior to me even entering Boston Public Schools at second grade, I had attended a black independent school. So in the 1960s, late 60s, early 70s, there was this movement in Boston, like in other places across our country where black families once again were fighting for a better quality education. And so these independent schools were coming up. I attended new school for children. People like Julia Walker, people like Ruth Batson, people like Jean Maguire. All of these folks were on the front lines, whether they were part of Exodus, whether they were part of MECO, or the black independent school movement. And for me, I think that gave me the foundation that I needed to one enter into BPS, where I excelled until blessing. And then MECO, because those were all varied experiences. But for me, I had that firm foundation. And then the tradition of freedom schools. Exactly. And the anniversary of freedom schools. They were freedom schools in Boston. Yeah, and focusing a lot in African American history and better teaching. But I want to know, totally as smart, you mentioned before that you were surprised that suburbs weren't involved. I can imagine all the parents in Wellesley and Brooklyn going to court in two seconds over the time. Charity is from Wellesley. Yes, from Wellesley. But was there a better way? I heard a lot of theories. You know, you should have started with kindergarten. You shouldn't have done, you know, that you should have mixed it differently. I mean, was there a better way to do this to try to desegregate the schools? There were a great many thoughtful alternatives that could have been pursued. Boston itself had gone through decades and decades of enforced segregation in the schools and in most of the city's public services. And so the focus was on Boston itself. But the region was really involved in all of that. And Medco, which engaged the suburbs in taking in inner city kids, had been formed before busing. Yeah. So there was a clear understanding that there was a regional issue around integrating education. And Judge Garrity did not look to that as an appropriate example, but instead placed a burden on the parents in Boston to try to resolve the matter internally with Boston itself. You know, Mayor Flynn obviously had been involved in some of this as a younger man who was going to fix it. Mayor Menino was going to fix it. Mayor Walsh was going to fix it. Now it's within you were there but for a short period of time, eight months. And then now Mayor Walsh hopes to do it. So here we are, the consensus is 50 years later, the schools are as segregated as ever. We failed to mention that 18,000 white kids allegedly left within 18 months after Garrity's decision for those suburbs or parochial schools or whatever they did. Obviously, busing didn't do what it was intended to do. Starting with you Mayor Janie, what should be done in 2024 to realize the same goals that existed a half century ago, but were never met? Yeah, the issue had always been quality. The issue had always been quality. And for the years since the Garrity decision, we spent a lot of time talking about how kids are assigned to school, but not what happens in the actual school buildings. And so we really do need to shift away from how kids get to school and really talk about the instruction, the quality instruction that is needed, making sure that we have the right teachers and the right school leaders. In preparation for this, you know, I took a look at some of the old documents that were being presented to the school committee by folks like Ruth Batson. Nowhere on here is a call for busing. Nowhere on here is a call for busing. What they are asking for are the resources, what they were asking for were the resources that are needed, you know, a curriculum that reflects the diverse student body of the kids, quality teachers, involvement in the decisions of hiring superintendents, all things that seem pretty basic today. And some of which we've been able to accomplish, but that piece around quality, when there are so many other options now, we have so many children who are now going into Maco, or we have 10,000 Boston kids in charter schools. That's right. And so until we deal with the quality issue, we're going to continue to spin our wheels. How about you Ted Landsmark? Obviously, Garrity didn't do what you thought he should have done 50 years ago. What should Boston be doing now? I chaired a commission under Mayor Menino that went out into the neighborhood to ask parents what they wanted for kids in Boston. And it was clear that very few people favored busing as a way of improving the quality of education for their kids, and would have preferred to see a circumstance where the kids could go to high quality neighborhood schools. And busing at this point is a vestige of a time when the city's demographics were different, when the leadership in the city was different. And I think we're now at a point where we can really take a hard look at what busing was intended to do, what it has actually accomplished, and what it is we need going forward, which I would suggest involves getting rid of busing as it currently stands, and reinvesting those funds and quality schools in the neighborhoods. Especially when there's constant stories in the front page about how the buses can't show up on time, I understand what's so hard about that. How about you Michael, do you want to add to that list? If I can't, it's interesting because you know the student of history that I am, so if you're black and American, I was saying Boston, we're used to the throwaway schools, the throwaway neighborhoods, you know, name it, the throwaway, right? So the neighborhoods we lived in is because people we moved and they moved out. The schools we go in, we entered, they left, 30,000 left in that first year of busing. So we're used to it, and where did they go? They went to places we couldn't go to. They went to parochial schools that also wouldn't admit us and allow us to come in. They went to independent schools because many of them have resources. The interconnection of these issues is that black families like my mother were relegated to poverty, right? Those 6 million folks who moved to northern cities, my mother being one of them during the 50s and 60s, were relegated to housekeeping jobs. So the masses of black folks couldn't have the economic means to then move out of the city, move into communities with better schools, move into parochial education, independent schools. So we were left. So the reality is we can't forget the whole ecosystem that created this dynamic. It exists today. Black families at writ large cannot, don't have the resources to go to their academy where my son goes, or Milton academy, or to go to some of the parochial schools. And the masses of our kids will be educated in public education. Kim is a major champion and advocate historically around traditional public education. We underfunded, and I would argue, defunded public education where most of our kids go. We never solved that. But in 2024 in Boston, you know a lot more about this than I do. We just, you know, being a reporter and talking to people on the radio, we do spend a lot of money in Boston on the schools. We spend much, much money, as you said, on busing. I think it was $11 million a year of some astronomical money like that, I guess. I think it's a hell of a lot more. I don't know. It's a lot. It's a lot. And the argument is you point out that people say, "Well, I'm in a crummy school. That's why I want to be able to go, you know, to a different school." We have some crazy story about some poor kids who got a 90-minute trek from High Park to get to the, I think he's at the Stem Academy, Dearborn Stem Academy, 90 minutes each way to get there, which is insane. So what about getting to those neighborhood schools? And maybe the neighborhood school isn't quite as good as the school in Wellesley. But when you have a neighborhood school, you have moms nearby that can help out with the childcare and you have a coalition around the school and you have parents able to come and hang out in the playground and know what's going on and all that kind of thing. But that doesn't seem to ever get close to reality here. Because a lot of what you're describing is a myth. So we found, when we did this task force that Ted sat on and other task force since then, that there are a number of poor black kids who were being assigned to their neighborhood school. And these magical things of parent involvement don't just materialize because of proximity. The issue is still quality and how we get the best teachers in this school, how we make sure we have the right curriculum, that we are creating those opportunities for engagement. Simply being close to the school doesn't do it, you've got to do a lot more if you want to see that kind of engagement. Okay, so how? Kind of up just to say you're off by a mere 100 million. The transportation budget for Boston. Wow. So it's not all busing that you'd object to, but a lot of it is, 116 million, 10% of the total school budget. Most of that is for busing kids who require special education and outside of the district. And having debated this when Superintendent Chang wanted to eliminate the busing and part of the resistance from communities of color was the neighborhoods we have to commute through if you take public transportation. And the reality is we even solve crime, we even solve poverty, we haven't solved mass and cast, we haven't solved a substance use disorder crisis. And these things make parents nervous to put their child on two buses and a train versus a school bus. So Chang and I used to have this conversation. How do we solve for the safety of our children in a city that at times can be unsafe? I think we should be thinking differently about busing and how we can, you know, transfer children, but safety is a part of that. By the way, Jill from Watertown Text, that any of your guests, that would be you three, meet Judge Garrity as adults. Well, you were an adult at the time there, Ted, and talk about the impact or decision. Any of the three of you ever meet? Never. No, you did not. You know what I wondered though, you mentioned this in your story, Michael. You wondered about the parents, you know, that were out there screaming, throwing rocks and eggs and calling people to Edward and stuff. Did you ever meet anybody later on in years that said I'm sorry? Well, credit to Lufinfer and the group that's come together around busing because it put us in the same room to be in the same conversations. And I hate to make this comparison, but I do, because it's in my mind. When I think about pictures of slavery, I think about those families who stood around when they hung black bodies. And I always wonder, where are they now, right? Where are their kids who are five and six celebrating or throwing something at the body, right? And we tend to let that sort of die in history, but there's a story behind that. I want to know what they're doing now and who they're voting for, what their politics are. The same would be true about those people in South Boston and Charlestown, because I don't know if we crack the cold on that hate yet. And the reality is, if we don't ever pull them out of the shadows and have a conversation, then maybe that hate is seating somewhere else in a classroom and a courtroom on another street corner, because we've never dealt with it. I'm sorry, go ahead to my apologies. Yeah, I have met some of the parents and kids who were involved. Really? But it's a self-selected group. There are people who are willing to come to me. And they have, in fact, expressed regret at what they did and at what happened. But the people who were out there throwing the rocks have not come forward. Mr. Rakes that had the American flag that came after you. Yeah, he has selected not to come forward, although he's been asked to, on many occasions. But many of the parents and kids have said that they lost something, too, and that they would welcome an opportunity to enter into some sort of healing process. And I think that that's what Lou Finfer and his group are trying to do at this point. That is to start some real discourse and dialogue on what we learned and how we apply those learnings to a very different demographic situation within the schools right now. And Larry Dakara and his book is a friend of mine, but Larry had been a book. That's something I had never known that Whitey Bulger was planning to run violent attacks at those buses coming to South Boston. And I think there's a piece coming out soon that tells that story. Wow. There's more to this story, right? That what if he had succeeded, he and the mob had succeeded in attacking those buses and took his brother and other politicians to convince him to step back. And not perpetrate that crime against those children. This is more disturbing than I think we as Bostonians and Americans have even scratched the surface on. You know what I'd like to do, because we're out of time. We've spent most of this half hour talking about history, which I think is really important. I hope you'll all come back, actually, as a group, maybe in a few weeks, and focus the whole discussion on the future based on what we've learned. Mistakes are made, some things right, and talk about how we- Or how is Mayor Janice, how you get the quality schools? Exactly. How you get those? I hope you'll do that. We'd love to have you back, all three of you. And thank you for your time and your thoughts today. We really appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks for listening to the Best of Boston Public Radio podcast from GBH. Our crew is Zoe Matthews, Aiden Conley, Nicole Garcia, Hannah Lawson, our engineers, John "The Claw" Parker, our executive producer, is Jamie Bologna. You want to hear the full show? Download our full show podcast, or tune in to 89/7 GBH, 11 to 2 each weekday. Today's episode was produced by Zoe Matthews. (upbeat music)