Boston Public Radio Podcast
Best Of BPR 9/17: AG Campbell On Harris' Mentorship And Addressing Hate In Schools
Support for Boston Public Radio comes from Imagine Exhibitions. Harry Potter, the exhibition, is now open. You can experience the filmmaking of Harry Potter through interactive sets, props, costumes, and more. Tickets at harrypotterexhibition.com And The Trustees, presenting Halloween on the Hill, a celebration of autumn at The Trustees Long Hill in Beverly, running Wednesday through Saturday nights until October 27th. Advanced tickets required. Learn more at TheTrustees.org/Halloween. [Music] I'm Jim Brody. And I'm Marjorie Egan. This is the best of Boston Public Radio. New Daily Podcasts from GBH, featuring our favorite conversations from our three-hour radio show in under 40 minutes. Don't panic. If you love filling your phone with episodes of our full-show podcast, you can still find it anywhere you get your podcast, or just catch us live on 89/7 GBH, starting at 11 o'clock. Today on the podcast, the Attorney General Andrea Campbell is here for September's Ask the A.G. We'll ask her about combating hate in schools, the crimes of stewards Ralph Delatori, and what's on and off the table for Auditor D'Zaglia on her quest to audit the legislature, should her ballot question pass in November. I'm Marjorie Egan. The Attorney General will also tell us about one of her biggest mentors, a woman who encouraged her to send her joy in her career. That would be current Vice President and Democratic nominee for President Kamala Harris. And here's the show. Attorney General Campbell, it's great to see you. Thank you. Thanks for being here. Great to see you, Attorney General. So let's start with a very upbeat story. Actually, I read this on CNN, saw a lot of the pictures. I did not realize that Kamala Harris had been a mentor to you and a lot of other black women coming into politics. You campaigned for her when you were seven months pregnant out there in Iowa in 2020, so tell us. Yes, so I'm, of course, not only out here supporting her and Tim Walts to be the next President, Vice President of this country, because what is at stake in this election? But personally, I'm also supporting her because I know she'd be an incredible President and incredible leader. And I've seen this over the years. So I sort of full circle, actually. So I'm obviously the first black woman, Attorney General of Massachusetts, and I never take that for granted. It's an honor and privilege to serve and represent Massachusetts. But if you go backwards, when I graduated from UCLA Law School, she was my commencement speaker. And at that time, she was the first black woman elected as District Attorney in San Francisco. And then, of course, went on to be the Attorney General. And there's only been four black women elected AGs in the country. Only four. I didn't know that. Only four, and I'm the most recent and just James before me in Kamala before her and Pamela from Indiana before her. And so it's a small group, obviously. But in addition to the mentorship, I consider our Vice President to be a good friend and advisor. I was just at an event last night in Concord. Talking about what's at stake in this election, everything having to do with the rule of law, democracy. If you care about climate justice, gun violence, prevention. If you want everything related to economics and affordability to actually be dealt with, and so much more. If you want a country that is coming together versus someone who's dividing us and calling for another candidate to be assassinated. That's what's at stake in this election. But I stress that she's good on the substance, she's good on the issues. But it's also about who you surround yourself with. And so some of this mentorship work that she has been doing around the country to make sure our political leadership reflects the demographics of people we serve. Also demonstrates how she'll show up as a leader. She's got to hire people that are compassionate and empathetic. She's going to hire people who know more than her, who are experts. Hire people who are not yes folks or enablers, but push and challenge her to do the best on behalf of the constituents. And most importantly, don't enable her to do bad things that harm the constituents and the residents of this country. So I'm just excited to get out here. I'm just reminding folks, there are 49 days into this election. Some states of course start voting early. And yes, we're a blue state in Massachusetts, but you can phone bank to other states. You can travel to battleground states. You can mobilize folks. It's going to be important that everyone does their part to save our democracy and most importantly to elect leaders who care about folks and who will get things done while bringing us all together. Can you give us an example of a moment with Vice President Harris that meant a lot to you? Well, one, being in Iowa campaigning with her when I was seven months pregnant with my second son was incredible because it was the Iowa caucus season. It was just the energy on the ground there, advocates and political operatives and those who run community based organizations, do grassroots, get out the vote. They were all there, so you felt this groundswell of support. But this was also at a time when folks, I think, counted Kamala out. And I remember going to Iowa was all hands on deck to really push her candidacy and to push volunteers and to inspire them to continue to get out there on her behalf. And at this point, of course, everyone was running, including Biden, Senator Warren and some Cory Booker and so many others, Pete Buttigieg. And I remember her walking onto that stage, and she was the best that night. And I remember getting on the plane, seven months pregnant, and looking, I will be very candid with you, looking at the media coverage, and asking myself, was I in the same room in the same space? And so later on, when she decided to drop out of the race, she called me, extended gratitude for my support from the beginning. It was the first elected, actually, Massachusetts to endorse her as president for president in 2020. She was extending gratitude, and I just remember her saying, you know, she didn't know it was going to come next. But for me to keep fighting the fight, right, to keep pushing. And I remember thanking her for putting herself in the race, talking about the media coverage. And I thought she did an incredible job in Iowa and to keep staying in the course because her leadership was still needed. Those moments of encouragement happen. They're needed to be a black woman elected. It's hard. It's harder to raise money. You still, of course, get threats of all different kinds that can come your direction. So there is a group of folks who support each other, and I feel incredibly blessed to have such a deep connection with an incredible human being. Who is for the people and about the people. I think I have a lot of threats since you've been in Attorney General. Well, who knows, frankly, because I think -- You would know. And what I mean by that is I have a state police detail. That is a new reality. So things don't necessarily get to me and come to me as I go to various events where there are threats that may be happening or things going on. But who knows? I also don't, you know, monitor the comments on media articles or on social media. I'm very face-driven. I stay connected in my faith. I don't get distracted by the noise because I know I am protected by something bigger than me. And I just stay focused on the people and the work. But have any threats been brought to your attention by the state police, or others? No. I think sometimes -- I think you can go to certain places and folks who may be disgruntled about something may be present there. But we treat everyone with respect by the grace of God and, of course, the incredible detail I have. We've been fine. Okay. In a minute, we're going to get to your calls and texts at 877-301-8970. The treasure Deb Goldberg just fired, the head of the Cannabis Control Commission, Shanna O'Brien. Months-long investigation. Fires, or at least as a member of the public, share it. It appears to me very little information as to what was the motivation for a decision. You're her lawyer. Yes. And her is being Deb Goldberg. So I guess the questions are several. One, is this due process? Two, was the process fair? And three, am I not entitled? I and my fellow taxpayers entitled to know more about why an appropriately appointed commissioner was fired when the rules for dismissing commissioners are, at least from my estimation, quite rigid and tight. So answer any and all, please, if you would. Well, before I get to the chair conversation, I think I want to just talk about the commission as a whole because it's been in the news quite a bit and that's not lost on me. There is dysfunction in different ways as described by folks who are there. I think there is a culture where some folks get along, some don't. And so we have actively, as one of the appointing authorities, working with the treasurer and the governor, we all share appointments to work with the legislature. And I've said to the legislature, we have to come together and we will on ways to improve the commission so they can do their job. And that includes some possible structural changes. They need to hire more staff and hire more staff quickly. So we're getting more in the weeds on that because if they do not figure that out, we're all in trouble. And obviously there is an appointment of an interim chair. So there's just the instability that exists. You cannot do job effectively. And everyone agrees. They want to change that going forward. So we're actively involved in that. The specifics related to the removal of the former chair. Obviously the treasurer put out a public report that is, I think it's public. Oh, it's not. >> Exactly my point. >> Oh, okay. Well, it will be public at some point. I think I have to be careful. >> You know that for a fact? >> Well, I have to be careful because this is where I get in trouble and my team is like, excuse me, you can only say so much. We don't know where this is going to go. Obviously I represented in my capacity as AG, the treasurer before. That has to continue. And so that's ongoing and I can't say more than that. But when I can, I will. And when we can release that report, we will. >> And it is a lengthy one. >> But don't you believe that we have a right now to know why a commissioner in a public position was fired? >> Yeah, I don't understand what the delay is. It's not a low level employee where you might keep their personnel records private. Aren't we entitled to know what the motivation was? >> At some point. I mean, I think what we're figuring out in all of our investigations and representation of either a state, a constitutional officer. Obviously I represented the secretary of state and others. There is due process. There's discovery. There's a layers of every case. And our government bureau does an incredible job. When we can share things publicly, we will. And I just will stress this. It is also one of the frustrations of my role, too. I come from local government city council where I could share more freely. That's not the case when we are undergoing various investigations or affording folks through process. And there may be hiccups along the way and frustrations from the public vantage point. But when we can share it, we will. And we will make that clear when we can. >> Well, here's one last thing about it. I think it's been, how long has it been now 20 months or something? >> It's been a long time. >> Okay. So Shandla Bryan, first woman elected statewide in Commonwealth of Massachusetts, long distinguished career, has basically been hanging. For 20 months accused of gross misconduct, nothing I read seems to be gross misconduct. I mean, maybe she said some things she shouldn't have said, but it doesn't seem to be gross misconduct. She's kind of been, her reputation has been, I think, grossly shattered. In public opinion, Massachusetts, we are one of the most secretive states going. I mean, we can't know what the government is doing, we can't know what the legislature is doing. We can't know what judiciary is doing. I don't mean in every sense, but we're very secretive here, much worse than other states. Not only as your office represented her, but she's gone off to Skolberg and paid another $800,000 to another. So that's a lot of taxpayer money. >> To another what? Other lawyers. >> Other lawyers, right. So I guess the thing is, how long should Shannon O'Brien have to hang in the wind being accused and getting fired for gross misconduct before the state gets its act together and says what the heck she did? >> Well, I will say that, in the representation of the treasurer, she has, I think, been very thoughtful here. And she can't obviously express everything publicly that she would want to at this stage because it is active and it is ongoing. And that's thoughtfulness I've seen President, of course, representing her in her office. And there have been delays for different reasons that I can't even speak to publicly that have delayed this. And it's not just one person's fault as to why it's taken this long. And so this is ongoing. More will come out publicly. And I've always stressed that on the transparency, whether it's public records, context, conflict ventures, whatever it is, we go above and beyond in terms of disclosures. We think that is important for all agencies and all parts of government, crystal clear. The difference between an attorney general, though, versus other constitutional offices is we do have processes, legal rules, statutes, regulations, court procedures, you name it, that dictate how we can talk about things publicly and how we cannot. But I've always said, when we reach a conclusion in something, we will absolutely share sooner than later, not only with media, but with constituents, especially about the things that they care about the most. And so that will happen here, too. You know, Attorney General, there was an awful story this summer about the Southwick Regional High School where a mother said her daughter's first year in the eighth grade has been full of racial threats and bias and hate. And there's been a lot of reports about anti-Semitism in schools, and I know you're very concerned about that, so what's going on? There's a lot going on, and I appreciate you actually naming Southwick, because as I crisscross the state to talk about, we're going to do everything in our office to, of course, keep people safe from violence. We are actively taking guns off the street every single day, and drugs, and addressing drug trafficking cases. So this public safety, public health work is ongoing. We're going to make sure you have access to good housing, and we're going to make sure your parks and your water is clean, and that you have the goods and things you would need to thrive. But at the end of the day, I've been stressing, who cares about all of that tangible stuff? If you don't feel safe as a student in your school, and if you don't feel safe in your community, just walking around being who you want to be, as my uncle says, and being free, and to identify and represent yourself however you seem fit. So Southwick, I have been stressing as one place where, sadly, some black students did not feel safe, and there were things before what led up to the ultimate incident where they felt like the culture at the school did not warrant or create a safe school and supportive school environment, which led also to a mock slave auction. So folks are usually in shock. This happened at a school where a group of students, using their fellow students, created a mock slave auction to auction off these other students. And I talked to one of the students who is just amazing, not only excelled and graduated on honors and went back to that school, but most importantly, talked about the detrimental effect on her and what that felt like and the violation of her humanity, and the trauma she's still dealing with and grappling with that she will have to overcome as she pursues her dreams. So we don't just talk about the problem, though, in the office, and I think it's important to name that that happens here in Massachusetts, this idea that we're progressive and we don't have racism, antisemitism, Islamophobia here in Massachusetts. It's false. We do. But in our office, we also want to address and be a part of the solutions. And so I'm really proud of our Children's Justice Unit and our Civil Rights Division in particular. Our Children's Justice Unit is really on the ground every single day working with school districts, including Southwick. Not only work with the school district, work with community-based organizations, including the NAACP, and so many others who are involved, the parents, the students, in a very intimate way to push for the school district, and only go through some of our trainings that we host around bullying and harassment, which they have done, but to also put together a plan on ways in which to develop training and protocols to prevent this from happening in the future. And then pushing them in the response of how they respond to things before it reaches that point of a mock slave auction. And so that work continues. We've put out some information for our school districts and what they can do. We've put out information for our students, which is equally important, including working with those students who perpetuated this. You can't forget them. And we've also put out information for our parents, which is equally important. What our kids are learning at home. I stress this. I'm a mom of two boys, not just an AG. I have a seven-year-old and soon to be five-year-old who I absolutely love, Alexander and Aiden. And we are teaching them early on how to respect their classmates, how to respect people, how to love them. Our faith dictates that, too, and we connect those dots for them. That is critically important. Kids carry things we know, and they learn quickly from us and how we model our language and how we model, how we treat people, and how we talk about folks. So if we're using words of stereotypes and bias, that's going to trickle down. So we also have training materials and materials for parents. And so I just have to give a shout-out to the Children's Justice Unit in my office. You know I'm always giving shout-outs to my team. I'm sorry. I think that's just a challenge. Liza and Casey and the whole team, they used to be a team of one, Liza, and she expanded the team. And they are doing significant work, responding in real time to complaints, and then, of course, going back to these districts to do meaningful work on the ground, that we know will have an impact in changing school culture and climate so that everyone feels safe, regardless of the municipality you live in in Massachusetts. Thank you for that. Tom and Worcester, you're next with the Attorney General. Welcome to the show. Hi. Tom. Hi, Tom. Thank you for taking my call. Sure. My question is about the large footprint that the University of Massachusetts Memorial Hospital has in central Massachusetts. Given the issues with Stuart Healthcare, they used to be about six hospitals in Worcester. Now they have merged or been given to UMass. I don't know if UMass is run by the state. I suspect that it is not, but that is not clear to me. And I'd like to know from the Attorney General whether her office or any other entity she knows about is keeping an eye on this group. Well, keeping an eye, we're keeping an eye on all institutions that do healthcare in Massachusetts. We usually respond when we get complaints from either patients or providers at these institutions, and we follow up on those. Sometimes they're individual complaints, and sometimes there are several folks talking about concern related to an institution and the quality of care. UMass Memorial is not rising to the top in terms of complaints. I would say, Tom, if you want to stay on, if there are specific things that are concerning to you, that of course would take longer than this call, please do. Of course, first and foremost, we are actively and intimately involved in everything related to Stuart, which is a painful situation all around and has been for patients and providers for years. I often say I inherited this mess. And that accountability review to hold them accountable as a for-profit institution that put profits above residence is ongoing. It is, it will be something that we have to come back to the public on. But I can't say any more than that. We obviously have inserted ourselves in the bankruptcy proceedings to ensure that the sales of some hospitals happened so that patient care can continue. And I stress from the very beginning, the hardship of the possibility of closures, which is very difficult and very difficult and challenging. So I say, Tom, you know, Stuart's at the top of the list. But if you have specific concerns about UMass Memorial and the quality of care, do let us know. Tom, stay on hold if you choose to. Can we stay on Stuart for a second? We had two of the spotlight reporters for the Globe the other day who added to the story that Brian McGroy and some reporters at the Globe have told about grotesque self enrichment by Ralph Delatori at the same time patient care was suffering. But they make a pretty credible case. They, the Globe spotlight team that the misfeasance or malfeasance, I would argue, has directly led to the deaths of at least 15 patients. I think they did in that report is part, you say you're doing an investigation. Malta has indicted. Delatori on a number two. The U.S. Attorney's Office, the Globe reports, is looking at possible criminal charges. Are you? So I can't speak to the specifics of our investigation. We obviously, I work with the U.S. Attorney quite a bit. We collaborate on a lot of different things. And each office speaks differently about what they can speak to. And I think you have to be actually very careful when you have an ongoing investigation. We have to be very careful here. I will say two things, though, that are at the top of the list for me right now. Number one is doing the most thorough and thoughtful investigation of not just principles, but of steward overall. That is ongoing, and I will absolutely come back to the public and everyone because they deserve to know not only what happened, how we got here, but how we're going to hold them accountable. The second is the legislative solutions here. This is a, this is a for-profit institution. I have been at the active at the State House pushing for, not just language in a bill that has stalled a bit, but staying active in conversation with the legislature is also equally important to ensure our office as Attorney General, for example, has the authority to review certain transactions in real time versus later or after the fact, to be able to hold folks accountable and make sure that patients and providers are protected every step of the way. So those two lanes who are actively working and will absolutely come back to the public. I'd like to share on steward in a way that is robust and responsive to all of the reporting, to all of the information we're receiving from various stakeholders, and to all of the concerns we're receiving from constituents as well. You said a minute ago, I don't know what your language was, but something like it's been a bit delayed in the legislature. The legislature, I know I'm a broken record, is on, despite what they call it, a five month vacation. The Speaker of the House comment on this legislation regulating places like steward is, it was too important to rush it, to which I think margin I would respond, don't rush it, don't take a five month vacation and do your job and make sure that places like steward are regulated. Are you troubled that they, I know they say they didn't go home, but essentially adjourned except for informal sessions without having dealt with, I would argue the most serious healthcare crisis in Massachusetts in years. I can't speak to schedules and all of that. I will say some still positive things are happening. I chair the Mova board, which is victim comp. They just got their bridge funding, which is a big deal to close significant gap to ensure they have the resources to help victims of crime as a federal government steps away. So they're doing some things, but going to keep pushing them. I know time is of the essence here because as you have conversations about one for profit institution and healthcare, more conversations of course are happening now as a result of what happened with steward in terms of other for profit entities, not just in the traditional healthcare space, but also in the long term care facility space, elder care space. And so these tools that we will need to hold folks accountable, not after the fact, but prior or during will be significant. So we will keep working with the legislature to get this done. If I may, respectfully, unless there's unanimity, as you and I'm sure listeners know, with not one dissent, they won't even be able to address this until January as the steward situation goes on, as people continue to suffer in the Shelby Valley and obviously with the closing of Carney. Do you not believe they maybe should have extended their session long enough to address the steward situation? I'm confident based on all the calls, they read the papers too. They understand what's at stake when it comes to steward. Lives have been lost. Lives are still damaged right now. As I stand here, folks have lost their jobs, are wondering what comes next in terms of care. The Carney, where I would send my boys to the emergency room, is now closed in the show by the same thing. There is tremendous heartache in these communities that DPH and the governor have to deal with. I think they get that. And so what we're stressing is we have to be able to expand our tools to deal with this. And that's my message to them and everyone else, that that's just as important as our accountability review and holding steward accountable. They both are equally important. We've had several texts about a story that I think stunned and shocked a lot of us. A 25 year old Worcester would be state police officer Enrique Delgado Garcia. I'm sure you know he died in a training exercise at the academy and they said it was a boxing training exercise. But when you read the story, this young man had a broken neck. It was missing a bunch of teeth. And Bruce is all over his body. The initial reporting was made it sound like, well, the tragedy has died and we're going to support this guy. But now there's an investigation into what happened there because apparently this young man had told friends it was kind of like a hazing deal. Up there obviously it's very rough training for the state police. But will you be running that investigation or who will be in charge or who will look into what happened that runs up with a broken neck in a training exercise? This case is devastating. I actually was coming back from a conference when I got the news from some of my fellow troopers, and all of us were heartbroken. And I cried that night thinking about the parents, right, who obviously you do your best to make sure your child has access to everything they can pursue their dreams. And what I learned more about Enrique, including the fact he was a victim witness advocate in the DA's office for years, beloved in that office in the community, worked above and beyond, but dreamed of being a state trooper. And left that to then go, of course, through a grueling training to become a state trooper. You do need training, of course, and I think now the MSP has an opportunity to say, okay, while we make sure our folks have rigorous training, how do we ensure it's safe? So they're going to have to go back to the drawing board on that, obviously, and I think they will. But I thought about just this dream of becoming a state trooper. He's training, he's close to being done, working to protect and serve us here in the Commonwealth. So we are all heartbroken about this in the office. I have a state police unit in the office. They are heartbroken. I know fellow trainees who work with him for months are heartbroken, and absolutely his family is heartbroken. And so I'm a praying woman, I pray and continue to for them and offer my condolences. On the work side, what I recognize now is that we have to figure some things out, and we have to figure them out relatively quickly. The number one thing is, I am in conversation with a DA early, who obviously is the Worcester County DA, and other agencies to talk about who was best positioned to take on this investigation. Because he will not because of his relationship as a victim. And rightfully so, we all agree he has a conflict of interest, he knows the family, it's too deep. And he recognized that early on, so we have been in conversation. And sometimes in these cases you can go to another DA in another county, that's a possibility. Sometimes you can come to me in my office. And the question though becomes, are there conflicts in all of our offices? Because they all have state cops. And what does that might look like? And so ultimately where I'm at is, as I'm driving this, talking to everyone, there are a lot of stakeholders involved. So a decision point very soon to figure out who was best to lead this investigation. And I want to say that not just to the family and the community, I get the sense of urgency here. They have a lot of questions, they need a point of contact to go to, to get those questions answered, and someone to navigate that investigation on their behalf. They will do that. But the other piece I want to stress for just an educational point for our constituents here, is that is one, that's a criminal investigation because someone died. That the DA can't do because of the conflict. So I have to figure out, well, who is best positioned to do that? But then there's a civil side. And so as a state's attorney, I also have the other side. I represent state agencies. I have represented the state police, of course, in different matters. And so if, for example, that comes about, and I have called to represent them, that creates a conflict. So it's a dual role here that I have to navigate very carefully, and we will. And we will get to a place where the family, of course, has answers and an appropriate appointing authority to investigate this on their behalf and with them. One last state police question before we take a break, Attorney General. I'm going to read you the first paragraph of the Globe Story, written by Danny McDonald's, Shelly Murphy and Sean Cotter. This is about Jeffrey Noble, who was the person picked by the governor to be the next mass state police colonel next month. The veteran policeman tapped to helm the scandal plague Massachusetts State Police as a subject of at least four discrimination complaints. It alleged he bypassed qualified candidates who were gay, who were female and people of color for promotions while fostering a culture of cronyism during his time as a leader of the New Jersey state police. Does that concern you? I want to take a step back. I obviously was not involved with this election of the new colonel. And I expressed to him that he was selected. I look forward to working with him because I work closely with the colonel, not just because the unit in the office, but the work we do to investigate all kinds of crimes and other things. So I'm unaware of any of this. I will say I think it's more appropriate directed to those who appointed him, who are more intimately involved with the background check of him, with the interview process. I was not privy to any of that. I'm an outsider like everybody else. What I do know is we need a permanent colonel. You can't address things within an agency if you have interim leadership. Colonel Mon has done the best he can. I work with him closely. He is interim. He knows that doing the best he can. But we know if you're going to bring about culture change, if you're going to ensure that there's a diverse state police operation, they have the resources and tools to do their jobs effectively and appropriately. You need permanent leadership. And so that's where I stand back and say this is who it is, other questions have to go to the government, the team and the committee that was responsible. And I'm sure they have, I hope, have something more to check in. But you're the chief law enforcement officer in Massachusetts and you do know about it now. I don't mean firsthand, obviously, but obviously you've read the Globe accounting. So have you voiced concern to the governor? Do you not consider that, or do you have concern? Do you consider that appropriate to voice concern? Of course I read the paper like everybody else. And I take everything with a grain of salt, no offense to the Globe in the media. But obviously we have to do our own due diligence, et cetera. And so I am expecting, obviously, the governor, the committee that did this process, that they will respond to these with a thoughtful response, with one that offers a response to this. And that they're best positioned to do it because I was not involved. And if I hired somebody and someone said, excuse me, ma'am, we found A, B, and C that is concerning. Then, of course, I owe the public and folks a response. We spoke a lot last year about the vote in Milton to not comply with the MBTA Communities Act. Briefly, that was the thing that was advocated for by Charlie Baker. You can explain in a minute exactly what it does. There's litigation between you and Milton now. There's some other communities that are not in compliance. I think the Milton case is being heard by the state's highest court in October. Could you give us a brief summary of where we are on this compliance and what percentage of communities are complying, Attorney General? I can get you the numbers. Roughly. I would say overwhelmingly, we're still in the place where overwhelmingly the majority of communities are in compliance and taking steps to get into compliance. And where we are, of course, is filing briefs with the highest court, the SJC in this case. October is their decision point. We're looking forward to that because we think it would be extremely helpful. We obviously wanted it sooner, but the court decided to delay it. And we think it would be helpful because we think they will say, and we're hoping that and pushing that through all of our filings, that not only is the MBTA Communities Law mandatory, but that our office and my office has the authority to enforce it. And because it's mandatory and we have the authority to enforce it, we also have an obligation and responsibility to work with municipalities as in violation of that law to get them to come into compliance. And so we're confident in our arguments and waiting for the court, which will help us, of course, with other municipalities that still have question marks. But I will stress this because a lot of folks still don't know MBTA Communities Law is a law passed by a Republican governor at the time, Charlie Baker, a Democratic legislature, where they came together and said the housing crisis in Massachusetts is significant. And the voluntary tools that we have are just not working to get more housing online that is affordable and available to public employees, to young families, to seniors who want to downsize, et cetera. This law will make a difference. And they made it mandatory on purpose because most previous laws were voluntary. So I stress that because it's important. Why? Right now, the number one issue in Massachusetts is affordability. Everything is too expensive. My home, my health care, my housing, my education, student loan debt, you name it. The median income rate, the median, I should say, sales price for a home in Massachusetts is close to a million dollars. That means more people will leave our great state, more of our talent will say goodbye. This is a major issue. This is just one tool to help address it. So we're going to insert ourselves. And the other piece I have to mention is we have now a housing affordability unit, which we never had before. It's the first time in the office's history where it's going to demonstrate to folks publicly that we're going to prioritize the issue of housing, the enforcement of our laws, but also work with municipalities and developers on zoning, land use, regulations, et cetera, which we're doing to bring about more housing. And I just got, so right now, 175 are taking steps to come into compliance. So kudos to all of those municipalities that will never make a list in the news for the work they're doing with our office. That's almost every community that's covered by the -- okay. One last quick thing, and I'm hoping you forget that I asked this question last year. If this law is mandatory, as you just said, could you explain briefly why people are allowed to vote, to comply? Well, robbery is illegal. Do they get the vote, and whether or not robbery is going to be -- I'm serious. I don't get this at all. So we did not go after the ballot process, et cetera. There are pros and cons in doing that, and we don't want to be in the business, at least our office, of overturning local elections, et cetera. So we are focused on the law itself and our lawsuit, of course, against Milton. There are, of course, concerns about it, but each process is different. But we didn't want to be in that business. We have enough going on at the federal level where you have a former president who was talking about not only not accepting the results of elections, and a presidential election, but also using violence as a result. So we didn't think that was necessary to even go there. We think the merits itself in terms of the law itself, the history of its passage, is sufficient to make it clear that it's mandatory, and folks need to come into compliance, because all of us have to do something with respect to this housing crisis. I don't know about you. It wasn't not too long ago that the price was closer to $500,000. It quickly has come to be close to a million. And so everyone who lives in Massachusetts should be absolutely concerned about this affordability question, and asking what are their elected officials doing to address it? You know, Attorney General, one of our colleagues, Saray Wintersmith did a terrific story about this company based in Roxbury, this blue hill, a blue hub, excuse me, capital. And about a dozen homeowners have said that they were basically duped by blue hub capital. They were trying to escape foreclosure. They thought they were being rescued, but then they wound up getting this signing up for the separate second mortgage, and known as a shared appreciation mortgage in the bottom line that they were going to be paying these monthly payments, lower monthly payments, exchange for a share of the value of the home going down. They basically think they were duped by this company, our buddy, Bruce Marks. We have him on the radio from Time to Time. He's from the Neighborhood Assistance Corporation of America, NACA, who's a big guy for homeownership. Said you're not doing enough to prevent blue hub from basically ripping off these people. What's happening? I know Bruce. I know Bruce well, and I would emphatically push back on that argument that we're not doing enough. We take every consumer protection case, very serious. My consumer protection division works really hard, and particularly on this predatory lending, these predatory lending schemes. I even hired someone at the executive level to even think about how we can use these type of tools to close the racial wealth gap. With greater intentionality, not just on protecting consumers generally, but also on the racial wealth gap. So specifically blue hub, I learned about blue hub when I was on the city council. It's because some of these constituents live in District 4, the council district I used to represent. At that time, took their information and concerns and brought it to the AG's office. I'm now, of course, the AG presented with blue hub. Our consumer protection division is aware of the complaints. The challenge is, right now, there's a class action suit against blue hub, which we think should unfold. It's currently before the court. There's a summary judgment motion, and we're going to follow and see what happens with that, which is another way, of course, to get accountability. So we're keeping our eyes on that, and we're following that closely. And that was not mentioned in a flyer, and I appreciate folks advocating and saying where we come up short, because we will work to fix it. There are no egos here. We do great work, and we can always do better. But in this case, we're following this closely and following what's happening with that lawsuit. The second piece is, there is a piece of legislation at the State House. And in the flyer, it was inaccurate, and I would say this to Bruce and others, in this idea that we didn't take any stands on it. We had made it- We would make that shared appreciation model explicitly legal. That's right, and we said absolutely not. We were against any industry going to the State House, including a blue hub, and looking to create an exception from our consumer protection laws. So if anything, we stand with the constituents and Bruce on this issue, because no one should be exempt from our consumer protection laws. And if someone's trying to do that, we should all sort of have flags go up where we say, well, why is that? Because we always want to have that as an avenue to hold anyone accountable. If something goes wrong in a model, in a lending product, or anything they think initially is a great thing, but then causes harm, whether intentionally or not. Thanks for listening to the Best of Boston Public Radio podcast from GBH. Our crew is Zoe Matthews, Aidan Conley, Nicole Garcia, Hannah Loss, our engineers, John "The Claw" Parker, our executive producer, is Jamie Bologna. You want to hear the full show? Download our full show podcast, or tune in to 897 GBH 11-2 each weekday. Today's episode was produced by Zoe Matthews. (upbeat music)