Boston Public Radio Podcast

BPR Full Show 9/16: Monday Clutter

After another apparent assassination attempt of Donald Trump yesterday, we opened up the phone and text lines to hear from parents of how they're talking to kids about political violence this election. Brian McGrory of BU's Journalism department discusses the Globe's Spotlight coverage on Steward Healthcare. Plus, various political stories on Laura Loomer and Harris' ABC interview.Ilan Stavans of Amherst College discusses Mexico's independence day and the violent rhetoric around immigration espoused by Trump.Evan Horowitz of Tufts Center for State Policy Analysis breaks down this year's ballot questions facing Mass voters this November.Khalil Gibran Muhammad of Harvard Kennedy School takes a look at this year's college admissions, after the end of affirmative action.

Broadcast on:: 16 Sep 2024
Audio Format:: other

Support for Boston Public Radio comes from the University of New England, offering undergraduate and graduate programs in Portland, Maine, on the ocean in Biddford, Maine, in Morocco and online. The University of New England, UNE.edu. And the law firm of Davis MOM, immigration laws, are not foreign to them. Learn more at DavisMOM.com. That's D-A-V-I-S-M-A-L-M.com. Davis MOM, Lean Agile Strategic. I'm Jim Brody, head on Boston Public Radio. Our week begins with former editor of the globe, now head of journalism at VU, Brian McGorry. Let's talk about the media's coverage of now the second attempt in the life of Donald Trump. The suspected gunman was arrested Sunday for Florida golf courses, through her to health CEO, noted Drysage, enthusiast Ralph Dillatory, didn't help this case last week when he dodged the DC summons related to his gross and possibly deadly financial mismanagement. It's the latest in the string of outrageous behavior documented with care by Brian and his former colleagues. I'm Marjorie Egan. Much of the 2024 election cycle has been defined by violence. We've had wars in Ukraine and Gaza, bomb threats in Springfield, Ohio, two assassination attempts against Donald Trump, and a shooting at a pro-Israel demonstration in Newton. We want to hear from parents. Do you talk about violence at all or do you try? Not to. It's all ahead on Boston Public Radio 89.7 G.P.H. Here's Jim Brody. I am Marjorie Egan. Welcome to Boston Public Radio 89.7 G.P.H. We're going to be live at the Boston Public Library tomorrow with Attorney General Andrea Campbell for another edition of Ask the A.G. That's from 11 to noon. Hello Jim. How are you? By the way, COVID woman, you were back? Yeah, COVID woman is back. Yes, I am. And I'm very grateful to be feeling well again. I'm really glad to hear it. Thank you. So before we get to our first guest and his thoughts on another assassination attempt on the former president and other news, we want to give you our text prompt of the day. Kind of a perversion of Simon Gomry's Afternoon Zoo. Kind of a big time perversion, actually. Okay, which is worse to you? Feeling anti-immigrant sentiment by lying about people eating animal carcasses, or whatever Robert F. Kennedy Jr. did to the whale, not to mention the bear cub and before that a fried dog. Okay, good. You can text us at 877 301 8970 and we'll read them to you a little bit before the one o'clock newscast. We're joined now on Zoom by Brian McGorry. Brian is the head of the BU Journalism Department, former editor of the Boston Globe. Hello, Brian McGorry. Hello, Jim Brody. Hello, Margarita. How are you? Great. I'm fine, Brian. Great to talk to you again. So let's start with another second assassination attempt against former President Trump on his golf course in West Palm Beach. What do you think of the tenor of the coverage? It doesn't quite as frantic as I thought, considering it was an assassination attempt to the former president. No, you got right to it, Margarita. It's incredible to think that an assassination attempt on a presidential candidate who's the former president of the United States, a guy with apparently an assault rifle with a scope on it, it is golf course, is met with a collective yawn. And three hours after the arrest, we're all just kind of moving on. Okay, who's in the swing stage? What are they saying? It's really, really amazing how fast these news cycles are moving in this presidential campaign. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. It's not just because the news cycles are moving quickly. There may be something else going on here, and it's very hard to talk about, by the way, but you're being honest so far, so how about continuing? I don't know where you're going, Jim, but... I'll tell you where I'm going. I mean, well, the wrinkle I would add is that this is obviously the second assassination attempt in two months, and the first one involved actual bullets flying. It's not clear whether there was a bullet fired here. And the first one involved a bullet that struck Donald Trump, inches from his temple. So this one is, you know, by any measure, less than the prior one. And it seems like the readership, the country, is already sort of assimilating it. Well, that's not what I was getting at. This is very hard to talk about, but I would say, while I think most of mainstream media is totally responsible and plays it fairly, I think it's also safe to say that as humans, most people have contempt, for most media people, have contempt for Donald Trump's politics. And while I am surely not saying so, don't start sending texts that somebody wants him to be killed. There doesn't seem, I don't feel, and maybe I'm imagining this, the level of sympathy, empathy, whatever's the right word that I would imagine, which is I think where Margie was going... No, it wasn't. ...for a former president or a presidential candidate. Actually... That wasn't... You look skeptical, Bryant. Wait, you don't agree with me? No. Well, let Bryant go first. That's not where I was going. Okay. Well, that's where I was going. So, Jim, no, I don't agree with you. Look, I don't think that my colleagues in the news media are saying this is less of a story because he's such a contemptible big year. I do think that there might be some influence that here is a person, a candidate, and a president who has spent lots of time, lots of energy, stoking violence. Yeah, that's a good point. And, you know, having people charge the capital, having people, you know, people of the capital died on January 6th. He constantly uses over-the-top rhetoric about his opponents and about others. He is hyperbolic in every possible way. So, when there's a sense that violence is visiting him, it just feels slightly, slightly different, but I don't think this is in any way because the media views him as a less-than-stellar figure. What were you going to say, Marjorie, that? Well, I think it's that, and I think it's also that violent rhetoric has become, this was obviously more than rhetoric, but has become so commonplace. And we read yesterday about the Libertarian Party in New Hampshire tweeting out that Kamala Harris should be murdered. Anyone who murders Kamala Harris would be an American hero, they threw it out. Yeah, and they took it down, and normal Republicans, or the Libertarians criticized them, but, I mean, that's a frontier that you don't often see crossed. Let's murder somebody, you know what I mean? There's this whole kind of soup of violence that's surrounding us. Look at the Ruckus and Newton at the pro-issue. Shooting with the demonstrators, yeah. And Newton at a small protest. So I just think that there's this mood, cloud of violence that is scary. We're talking to Brian McGorry, so Brian, we've only talked nonstop about the pet eating issue, vis-a-vis, Springfield, Ohio. Dana Bash from CNN did a brilliant interview with J.D. Vance yesterday. Here's just one little piece, you'll hear Vance, and then Dana, and then Vance again. The American media totally ignored this stuff until Donald Trump and I started talking about cat memes. If I have to create stories so that the American media actually pays attention to the suffering of the American people, then that's what I'm going to do, Dana, because you guys are completely letting Kamala Harris coast. If I have to create stories, and then she challenged them on the merits of this thing, there's no confirmation at all that what he and Trump continue to say, what's your reaction to this? In the debate, one of the most surreal moments in a decade of surreal moments, Trump's comments were unlike anything I can recall. What was your reaction to this Haitian Americans in Springfield, Ohio thing? Most of whom, by the way, are there legally, by the way, under a temporary protected status program, unlike what Vance and Trump are saying? Look, on the Vance interview with Dana Bash, I end up spending an inordinate amount of time trying to determine who is a more contemptible figure, J.D. Vance or Donald Trump Jr. The fact that, apparently, they're very close friends. They are very close friends, and that's in no small way how J.D. Vance probably ended up on the ticket. I think even Trump has to be looking at Vance right now and saying, what did I do here? Like, what kind of mistake did I make as this guy's out of control? And he's making me further out of control because I have no control anyways. It was an extraordinary development at that debate when Trump brought up something that has been so roundly debunked, did it in such an obviously angry way, looked untethered, unhinged when he was doing it. I mean, what else do people need to know about a presidential ticket when they're bringing this stuff up? Well, yeah, it's interesting you say that. And you said, looked on hinge and untethered and whatever. I don't know if I brought this up with you if I did. I apologize, but I know I brought it up with John King and Chuck Todd in the last couple of weeks. I don't understand why the media is not having guests on that are commenting on the mental health of Donald Trump. I understand everybody's now talking about a cognitive decline because they talked about it with Biden's. They've talked about it with Trump. This BS from the American Psychological Association, the Goldwater Rule from decades ago, we ask experts pundits, my least favorite word, all the time, what do you think that candidate's really thinking? What do you think their goal really is? Why can't we have people on who are shrinks or psychologists who say, I've never examined Donald Trump or Kamalais or whatever, but based upon repeated observations in my level of expertise, here's what I think is going on with the mental health of this candidate. Why is that inappropriate? And obviously, it's deemed inappropriate because nobody does it. Well, I think, Jim, and I wish I could remember the name and maybe somebody can find it while we're in the air, but the New York Times ran an excellent column by a psychiatrist. I think it's Lee Siegel as I think his name. I read that piece. Yeah, I think it's Siegel. He basically said that he is increasing the untethered, and there are true signs of not just cognitive decline but actual issues. Back to that other point, though, about cognitive decline, did you happen to watch the video that CNN did? I think it was on the Abbey Phillips Show that comparing Trump's answers to basically the same questions in the 2016 debate against-- No. With his answers now, it was really, really striking and sobering at the same time to see the level of command that he had back then, how he owned the microphone, how he knew what he was talking about, and to see him spewing and sputtering in 2024. It's worth taking a look at. Oh, we'll have to look at that. But she's a very good host, I think. Too late for me. Harvard woman. Harvard woman. No, I don't want to leave this yet. I don't need that. The exception, I'm looking up to make sure it was Lee Siegel. I read that piece. It isn't done nearly enough. Isn't that a legitimate topic for the media to be weighing in on, talking to people with expertise? I agree. I agree. I just don't know. I agree, and I know that's all you want to hear, but I don't know that the public will care enough about that or be swayed by it. I agree with that. Yeah. Well, you know, it's interesting. If you are a, if immigration is your top issue, you may be someone who says, well, that's ridiculous. We don't really think that anybody's eating cats and dogs. On the other hand, this has brought attention to a town. I think Springfield, 60,000 people, between 12 and 20,000 Haitians, most of whom are legal, not illegal, are there. But that's a huge impact on the schools and the health care and the rent costs and all that kind of stuff. It's a picture of the difficulties of assimilating thousands of people in a small town. There's been stories about that, but I think if you are a pro-immigration person, you can throw out the cats and dogs and still say, look at this town. And the mayor saying, we don't want hate, but we need help. You know what I mean? I don't know that we sometimes can look at it from someone who thinks that this is an outrage for get the cats and dogs. You know what I mean? I, I, Margie, I couldn't agree more. I, I, and it's a shame because the cats and the dogs thing, cats more than dogs, I think. Plus geese. Plus geese. And dogs. That is a shadowing, a legitimate situation in Springfield and everybody else, including Massachusetts. When you have people who are coming here, immigrants who are coming here and overwhelming our ability to properly take care of them. And these are real issues that need responsible answers. And we're not getting them when we're talking about, you know, memes and deporting 11 million people or whatever Trump is talking about. That's never going to get done. So Brian McGorry, let's go ask you another question as a form writer. Well, you're the journalism guy over there, so it's still in your current capacity. What's fair game in the Laura Loomer situation? Clearly fair game or her comments. This is the woman who's traveling with Trump's thing in Mar-a-Lago. She went to 9/11 ceremony, a memorial with him. She was the debate with him. There were videos all over the place with his hands all over. It's clearly fair game to say the White House is going to smell like curry. This kind of racist thing. And some issue around, you know, a calling center at the White House that she said. Bill Maher on the other end of the spectrum, not saying he's a journalist, is re-initiating his segment. The title of which is Who's Trump Effing around Laura Loomer. But it's his relationship with this one personal relationship with this woman. Fair game for responsible media. Look, Jim, I don't think we know enough about it. But why do you need to go to the personal relationship? Why not just deal with the political relationship? Because this thing is bizarre. I mean, let me ask you. Did you ever hear Laura Loomer? Did you hear about, have you ever heard of her like six months ago, three months ago? No. No. I had this person on the extreme of the extreme who is just, you know, a provocateur who will do anything and say anything to get attention who Marjorie Taylor Greene. Yeah, that's right. I mean, that's hard to imagine. That is very racist is what she said her comments. This is Taylor Greene saying this. Yeah. Think about that. I mean, so why do you even have to transcend the political relationship to go to the personal relationship? The idea that she is part of the Republican nominees entourage is he travels the country and is whispering in his ear. I don't need to know whether her lips are touching his ear. I just need to know she's whispering in it. And that's a really bad line. But that in itself, where is Trump getting his information? How is he getting swayed? And the fact that she is part of this is a really legitimate story. We're talking to Brian McGurry, one last presidential thing about press. Harris, we all know, has done one national interview since she became the nominee that was with Tim Walz. And she did a local hit in Philadelphia with somebody with five questions. But I think it's fair to say she's avoiding dealing with the press. The White House Photographers Association is complaining nonstop about their pool or nonpool access. I assume you consider the well, I don't know, but I assume you consider the criticism legit. And what should the media be doing about it other than complaining, which they've been doing? The criticism is very legit. And I got to tell you, you may not want to hear this, but it seems to have been a pattern among Democratic candidates and presidents. Thank you. It's a thing maddening. Barack Obama was basically terrible with the mainstream news media. Didn't grant interviews or did very infrequently. Joe Biden doesn't, he never learned the names of the main reporters in the White House briefing room. He didn't know who was who. Who was the president when you were the White House guy for the Globe? Bill Clinton, he was amazingly accessible. I had three either very small group interviews or one-on-one interviews with him. He was very accessible. So, look, what Kamala Harris is doing is egregious, but, you know, back to the point, I don't think voters care. And she's got something very much playing in her favor right now. She's willing to get back on a stage in front of 50 or 75 million people with reporters questioning her in a debate. And she's willing to take on Trump. And Trump has said he's not going to do that again. So, I think that Harris can blunt much of the argument, even though it's really maddening, that she won't engage with the news media more. You know, Brian McGrawie, you did unbelievably great reporting on Ralph Dulatory, the head of Stuart Healthcare. From you, we learned about his magnificent yacht, his magnificent fishing boat, and his visit to Versailles during the Olympics to watch Dressage. Now, of course, he's not honoring a subpoena from Congress, and there's talks of people throwing him in jail. We can elaborate on that, but one of the things I wondered, I think you talked to people who know this man, and I'm wondering, is he like an fanatic, deleterious? He's denial? Does he think he's going to hire the best lawyers to get him out of this? Or is he packing to go to Club Fed? I mean, what's his story? I mean, it's hard to say. It's hard to say. I mean, this guy is hard to get your head around. I mean, given what he's pulled out of a struggling healthcare company in terms of the dollars, given what he's done to it, given how he left it, it's hard to get inside his mind and picture what he's thinking, but we do know a few things. There is a grand jury investigation. The feds in both Washington and Boston are pursuing many lines of this, and, you know, obviously the Senate is coming after him. He didn't show up for that hearing last week, and if you're Ralph Dulatory, you've got to have some idea that your world is crashing down around you, right? I mean, am I seeing that wrong? No, but there is this thing. We had two of your former spotlight people have done some great reporting the last couple of weeks, particularly on the impact on patients and at least 15 lives lost directly because of some of this behavior. And one of the things that comes, there's a history in this country, I think, of unwillingness to go after CEOs criminally. They say it's too difficult. They're too insulated. Maybe we'll do a civil. I mean, the Sacklers are not in jail, which is incredible to me. And Malta has indicted Dulatory in a number two, and no grand jury in the United States has. So, frankly, I hope something happens on that front because if it's just fines or something, what the hell's the difference? He just pays out of the hundreds of millions of dollars that he's grifted out of this company, you know? I agree with you entirely, Jim, but, you know, I will say that having his antics, hijinks, perhaps criminality played out on the pages of the Boston Globe and elsewhere has to be putting pressure on federal authorities. Any U.S. attorney, other prosecutors, they have to be feeling this pressure. And, you know, look, there is a lot to work with there. You're right, these cases are incredibly complicated, but, you know, often you end up getting them on tax issues based on other times they committed. I mean, didn't that what happened to Al Capone, right? Exactly. I think those tax documents were in the safe when Geraldo opened it. So, before you go, speaking of press, you told us a month or two ago or a few weeks ago that you were creating sort of a, not sort of like a student newsroom within the journalism department there. What exactly is going on there, Brian McGorry? I appreciate you asking. So, here at Boston University, where I've landed, the idea was to build a student-run newsroom with professional editors that will serve all of these sort of local and hyper local nonprofit news organizations. Oh, great. Yeah, everything from, you know, the big ones, like the New Bedford Light and the main monitor, the New Hampshire Bulletin, two really small ones like Brookline News and, you know, what's going on in Newton and Waltham, I mean, pick a town. Yeah, there's a, yeah, there's a, there's a nonprofit news organization opening up. So the idea is to get students to be essentially a wire service for all of these local news organizations and professional editors. We've just hired a new editor-in-chief, a guy named Steve Greenley, who is phenomenal. He was the editor-in-chief of the Portland Press Herald. We've just stepped down from there to come down to BU, and we aim to have this thing launched by January and be out there with our own stories, helping these nonprofits. That's fabulous, actually. That's great. That is great. I can't tell you how much, how bad it is to lose your local paper, at least in my time. I didn't know what the heck was going on, and it's a real problem, but we have one more thing. Yeah, I think we should get his job. Do you want me to do this, or do you want this? This is a really important issue. Really, Marty and I were talking about something. We said Brian McGraw is the one to be able to answer this. According to the Washington Post, this woman, a woman who's quite prominent, has written in a recent memoir, quote, "sharing my most personal reflections does not come naturally." Now, that's interesting, except we learned it's actually her fourth memoir. This would be Hillary Clinton. So the question is, if it's your fourth memoir, how credible is it to say sharing my most personal reflections does not come naturally? Brian, take it away. Go ahead. Go ahead. Two things that's happening there. Either the Clintons need more money, or Hillary needs something to fill her time, but I'm going to leave that one alone. Sharing my most personal reflections. Is anyone ever written four memoirs? Is anyone ever written four memoirs? Is anyone ever written four memoirs? No, they're four memoirs. The Washington Post said if the Washington Post said they're four, they're four, as far as I'm concerned. And what's the title that would buy a fourth memoir? Who would go out and buy this? That's a very good question. You should get that Joanie Mitchell line though, something lost, something gained. Very whimsical. Love life, and she's going to tell us about love and life is what she's going to tell us about. One of my most personal reflections does not come naturally. Can I say that? Brian McGorry, good to see you. Congratulations on the newsroom thing. That's fabulous, actually. Yeah, that is really fabulous. We'll talk to you soon. Brian McGorry, thanks. Be well. Thank you. Thank you. We've been speaking with Brian McGorry, chair of BU Journalism Department, former editor of the Boston Globe. Up next. Have you read, by the way, you read, I mean, you talk almost all the time about Michelle Obama's memoir. You know, Joan, do you read any Hillary Clinton's? I have started some of Hillary Clinton's books. I wish she'd beaten Donald Trump, but I am not a big fan of Hillary's. The reason Michelle Obama's book was so good is because it was real, and Hillary's, I don't think, is, they've been very real. Got it. Okay. Up next, we're going to open the phone and text lines. The election is nearly seven weeks out, away and defined by political violence this time around. So, are you parents out there struggling to explain the stakes of all this to your children? Do you talk to your kids about it at all? Or do you shield them for as long as you can from the insanity that we're seeing all around us at selection season? How do you deal with these politics with your children? It's basically the question 877-301-8970. It's the number to call or text. We're listening to Boston Public Radio 897-GBH. Welcome back to Boston Public Radio, Jim Brody. Marjorie Egan is back. We're at the Library of Tomorrow with Attorney General Andrea Campbell for S-V-A-G. That's 11 to 12. Tomorrow, last week, when Marjorie wasn't here, I think, we talked about the importance of a robust civics education. A lack of it may be at the root of our political ills. This morning, we're going to open the lines and ask you about how you're talking about this election with the young people in your lives. Donald Trump faces, as you know, a second assassination attempt this weekend. Our nation's top advocate of political violence, again, becoming its latest target. His red or aground immigrants fueling bomb threats in Springfield, Ohio. The war in Gaza leading to violence locally. It's a political demonstration in Newton, as Marjorie said. Ukraine and Russia, the daily impact of climate change in the world. And, of course, who is Laura Loomer? Not to mention all the things locally that matter. We're going to talk to Evan Horowitz about the ballot questions in a few minutes. What about MCAS, psychedelic mushrooms, et cetera. So how are you talking about a selection with the young people, the kids in your life? What are the issues they're concerned about? How much you share with them, and at what age? And also, how honest are you about the issues and about your feelings about the issues? Give us a call or a text. Well, your kids in mind are now all in their 30s, so it's a different kettle of fish. When your kids were single digit types, low single digits, four, five, six, seven, they called a piece of the news, or they were in school, and you knew they were going to hear about something. What'd you tell them? Well, those were the days, obviously, before social media, to point out it was a while ago. That's a good point. I certainly never let my children watch the local news, because the local news... You did? No, because it was full of shootings and fires and horrible things happening, and I tried to shield them as long. They couldn't. I think a lot of kids are age. And when 9/11 happened, of course, that was the first moment they faced an absolute horror, and you couldn't hide from that, because everybody was talking about that. I think it's very hard. This woman writes a piece for USA Today. It's got a nine-year-old, and she talked about how she's making her dinner, and her kid is watching something on YouTube, who wants to know, "Mom, how do you steal an election?" And she tries to start explaining to him, and it's interesting. I do remember one thing about when my kids were little asking me difficult questions about some family thing, or some violent thing, or something. Usually, when you started to explain it, they quickly got bored, because it wasn't that exciting, and she said the same thing, and she started to explain to them about that there's disenfranchisement and polling place abuse, and misused campaign fun. The kids said, "Okay, all right, okay. Don't care." And go back. I'll never forget, this is not exactly the same thing, but I remember when there was such the Bruhaha about gay marriage, and one of my son came home from a friend who was raised by two women and said, "Why does so-and-so have two moms?" And she said, "Well, most people, you know, a man and a woman get together, but sometimes it's a man and a man, a kid, and he says, "Okay, all right, can I have an Oreo, please?" You know, it seemed not to really get that upset about it. Well, sometimes they may, though. I mean, for example, clearly, when my kids were young, if there was a presidential debate, I'd encourage them to watch. Would you? Yes, we do. Okay, so if they were listening to the presidential debate the other night, and you have a kid who's, let's say, six or seven or something, and there's this discussion initiated by Donald Trump about pets, what would you do? Just to remind you, here it is. In Springfield, they're eating the dogs, the people that came in. They're eating the cats. They're eating their eating the pets there. And this is what's happening in our country. ABC News did reach out to the city manager there. He told us there had been no credible reports of specific claims of pets being harmed, injured, or abused by individuals within the immigrant community. Well, I see people on television. Let me just say here, this is the-- The people on television said my dog was taken and used for food. So, again, the Springfield city manager says there's no evidence of that. We'll find out. I'll let you respond to the rest of what you've heard. You talk about extreme. Okay, so what do kids care more about than pets? I would say almost nothing. They love their pets. Okay, this is a serious question, not a joke. You're seven-year-old, for example, happens to see that exchange between David Mure, who I think did a fabulous job on that question, ABC News. And Donald Trump, what do you say to your kids? I mean, there's so many levels. It's not just the harmed animals, which didn't happen. It's the Haitian immigrants. It's that they're not here undocumented. They're here legally under, as I said, a minute ago, temporary protected status, that there is violence being threatened against them in that community. What do you say? Well, I'm not a child psychologist, Jim, but I think we're serious. Your mother-- Beauty's of today's children is that even if they're over six, they can immediately show you the best memes of the cast and dogs. Looking panicked when they hear the president talking. I think in that case, you just tell them it's not true. And it's not true. And reassure them that this is another lie that the president and his vice president are telling and move on. But I do think that would be something that would scare kids. So it's a whole different world. How much can you shield kids now? It's very difficult. How much should you shield kids? I mean, I'm embarrassed to say I hadn't thought about the social media thing, because obviously that didn't exist, as you said, when our kids were young. But that's-- you almost have no choice, it seems to me. I mean, if we had this debate 15 or 20 years ago, we would say, does the teacher bring it up or not bring it up? Do you bring it up or just ignore it for a few years? You can't ignore it anymore. Do you call again? Well, I think there was a great study about the trauma. And this is a really long time ago during World War II in Great Britain of the bombing. The Nazis bombing night after night of night in London. And they talked about how parents reassured their children that they were going to be okay. Even though they might not be okay, if the parents who reassured their children, they're going to be safe from this violence, it's like school shootings. Yes, they happen and they're terrible, but the chances are they won't never happen in your school. Reassure your children that you're going to keep them safe is, I think, the right parental thing to do. That's just me. Can you reassure your kids that somebody who attempted to overthrow the government of the United States won't be reelected to run the government? You can't do that, right? Well, that's not. I don't think that's quite as visceral to the kids as the eating of the dog. That's a good point. Because a lot of us, the dogs. By the way, Emily and Medford, I assume, text that are tweeted. My eight-year-old wants to watch the debate and she's very mad at me. She's not old enough to vote. We always have on NPR at the house and in the car, so she's updating the news and we answer all her questions. This is great. She also said her classmates talk about the election on the playground. Oh, my God. They're in third grade. Is that great or is that great? Well, you know, another good point from this USA Today story is it is good to talk to children about the values of in the home, what the parents or spouses think about political issues. I think that's a good one. Can I read one more? Text America and Marvaro. This is the honesty thing I think that we were talking about. I've played the politics balance with my teenagers. However, with Trump, I tell them he's a lunatic. I don't want them entering into adulthood thinking that is normal behavior. By the way, that is what we lay up. That is a really important point. You know, your kid says this guy was president. He's running again for president. It is important to say this is not how people treat other human beings. It's not how people talk about other human beings in a civil, respectful society. Where do you want to start, Marvary? Well, let's go to Nick and Connecticut. I'll go there. I'm sorry. Nick, you're first on Boston Public Radio. Welcome to the show. Hi. Hey. Good morning, guys. Hi. So my son is 12 going on 13 now. So Trump's influence in our country has kind of like when I was growing up in Clinton, and the bushes were on omnibus. And this has been one of the kind of most formative political figures that they've known. And I have to be very careful with how I speak about not Trump necessarily, but to because I have family members that are more conservative, maybe not Trump supporters, but try to make clear that, you know, just because someone might be more conservative, it doesn't necessarily define them as a good person or a bad person. That being said, Trump is pretty much off limits because there's so much about his old shtick vibe that is offensive to us, not least of which, because my son's grandparents were political refugees from Thailand during the Vietnam War. So everything Trump does is essentially an affront to my son's existence. So I have to have so many very balanced conversations with him. And it's getting to the point where, you know, he's old enough that he sees memes and is, you know, quoting Amala Harris meme lines to me. And, you know, part of me was like, okay, but just so I understand, like, what do you make of Kamala Harris when you're throwing out the coconut lines and existing in the context of the serious price about it? And without missing a B, you know, he's like, oh, I want Donald Trump absolutely nowhere near the White House ever again. He scares the hell out of me. How old's your kid again? Did you say Nick? He's 12 going on 13 in December. Wow. That was a great guy. I got him. Sorry. Oh, no. It's so I guess I care a little bit less about how do we talk to kids about the election and how frightened they are and maybe should be turning this lens, maybe more on people like JD Vance saying that school shootings are a fact of life. That's a problem. Hey, Nick, we got to let you go. We got a lot of calls. That was excellent. Thank you very much. You have a hell of a 12 year old. What's the call? You know, one of the text, textures is harking back to the easier olden days when people fretted over how to explain Monica Lewinsky's dress and the surgeon or all sex. It seemed to be then considered not sex because of present Clinton statements and the impact on middle school and high school kids. Well, I mean, you know, Brian just said, did anybody hear of Laura Loomer three months ago? I think almost everybody who's on social media is hearing about Laura Loomer now. What do you, what do you say about that? You know, Brian said, well, the mainstream press just deals with a professional part of the relationship. Well, there's another, there's at least allegations about another part of the relationship, which is hard to avoid, at least my sense is. And just to repeat, it isn't incredible that the former president goes to commemorate 9/11 in New York and in Shanksville and he brings a woman with him who thinks 9/11 was an inside job. Yeah, inside job. She said that for those who don't know. Right. And there he is with police officers and firefighters. Wonderful point. Hundreds of whom gave their lives and he thinks that's okay. Wonderful point. I mean, I think you have to keep saying this guy is bonkers. I mean, I think you do have to keep saying that. Katie and Hingham, you're on Boston Public Radio with Margarita and me, Jim Brody. Hi. Thanks for calling. Hi. Thanks for your show. I love it. So nice. I have a six-year-old and a four-year-old and right now the morals and values that my husband and I are instilling have more to do with being nice to each other on the playground and diversity last night. My husband and I were sitting there doing stories and my husband looked at me and under his breath said, "Did you hear about Trump?" And I was very subtle and was like, "Oh my gosh, I can't believe it happened." And my six-year-old was like, "Mommy, what happened? What happened?" I was like, "It's okay. It got taken care of." And she kept asking me and I finally just said, "It's okay. It got taken care of by the police because my six and four-year-old are not yet ready to handle the fear that's going to come with that. Yeah. But I do try and tell to them. You know, by the way, that's an interesting point about somebody running to be president. Your kid, at least I assume, at least your six-year-old knows about a president. And someone tried to kill him for the second time and how do you explain that without instilling fear as your concern is K. That's a wonderful point actually. I don't know, but it'd be interesting to hear, not only from people who were little kids during the JFK assassination, but during the RFK assassination and the Martin Luther King assassination, I think it followed by, of course, all the Democratic Convention back in the late '60s. I mean, people that remember that, I think that was a very scary time. You thought that the world was kind of falling apart and it was almost impossible to avoid those stories. Katie, that was great. Thank you. Appreciate it. An anonymous textor says, "Forgot us talking to them. They are scaring us. My high school senior has been discussing the current climate and his AP government and politics class based on their research. There has not been this much America on American violence and animosity since prior to the Civil War. Talk about a dark view of the future from our youth." High school senior is like an adult to me in terms of this thing. I think it's a good point you make. But my concern about how you have a conversation, I'm not sure I'd know how to do it, was younger kids. Right. Low double digits, single digits, that kind of thing. And I guess that's the question now because there's such access to cell phones and social media and iPads and all those kinds of things, can you really keep them sheltered like you used to? You mentioned Lewinsky and I was saying that was really hard to myself. There were Stormy Daniels last year. Well obviously we learned about it before but there was the trial last year. That's right. I mean what do you do about that? If President having sex with a porn star is not scary, probably to most people. I mean it's another new frontier, another threshold cross but I don't think it scares you. You think? I don't know what it does. I mean it's, I think this for inserting, to say it's not a good idea to be having sex with a porn star. I think generally when you're a married man with a young newborn baby, we can be definitive on that, Jim. Okay. Listen to this one. You see this anonymous text there about a 10 year old daughter, she's in fifth grade. She just told me she was reprimanded on the playground for saying Kamala Harris's name. She said her teacher said that saying Kamala Harris was quote, "too political." I'm not sure if the same holds for saying Donald Trump's name. My daughter said the school should be teaching them, this is what her 10 year old says to her. She'll be teaching them about politics rather than forbidding students to speak about it. I agree when I was in fifth grade we had a mock election and a mock debate reflecting the candidates of that time. One more from the anonymous text where I tell my seven year old everything and while he knows my views, I try to speak about politics, how I speak about religion. We have friends and neighbors that believe those things, but mom doesn't. They have little kids, little budding socialists, so mom feels he's confident he's making good decisions. I mean that's a good one too, you know, because religion is a tough topic for a lot of kids too. And when Grandpa goes away-- Yeah, but the reason-- I know, but the reason this is so much more different as we've discussed in different ways every day for years is it's not just somebody you agree with and somebody you disagree with on policy, it's a relatively normal person who you may or disagree or agree with. And then there's an outlier, Donald Trump, you know, that's what makes it so difficult. I don't think in normal times, I mean maybe a Monica Lewinsky thing is tough, but in normal times, I don't think the difficulty of explaining what's going on is nearly what it is with Trump and Bo. We've never had this phenomenon before when you have-- I think pretty much a raving lunatic running for president again and half the country thinks that's swell, you know, you can be telling live to live to lie and be so deranged and yet they're not worried that he might get us into real trouble here with his, you know, ability to start some crazy war. Andrea and Stonam, you're on Boston Public Radio with us. Hi. Hi, guys. Jim, I called because I was in the exact same scenario that you were kind of describing. I have an eight-year-old daughter and official son and I knew I wanted them to watch the-- like, that was my gut feeling was for them to watch it, but then like your second guess is sometimes like, what could happen, but anyway, they ended up wanting to, like, you know, they learned what a debate is, but specific to the dogs and cats, comments, they looked at me for my reaction because I think kids do that a lot. Of course. It's more like the reaction than the words, that means so much. And they looked at Kamala and, you know, she was cracking up, I was cracking up, and my eight-year-old daughter did say, is that true? And I said, of course not, you know, and they just-- they just could not believe that he was saying that. Like, they knew. She double checked with me, but they knew, like, how absurd that was. And I'm glad they watched it. You know, obviously they couldn't absorb everything, but you know, the questions were like, why is he making those faces? And my eight-year-old daughter said, she's so much clearer than him. I couldn't understand her so much better than him. So it was a positive experience in the end. That's great, Andrew. I'm glad you did it. That's great. There's another side to that. An anonymous text there. My 10-year-old asked why Kamala Harris never actually answers any of the questions in the debate. She just says words that don't mean anything. I said, that's what they call a word salad. Yeah. Okay. I'm a little suspicious of that one. Well, whatever. Do you think you shouldn't be? I mean, there are a lot of... Well, the 10-year-old was waiting for her to delineate her economic policies, and the 10-year-old was disappointed. Well, you shouldn't. I mean, that's not fair. Here's Eliza on the Cape texting my nine-year-old, heard me watching the debate, and came to sit down with me. He was so insanely engaged, I was generally shocked. He called Trump a buffoon that sounds like a first-grader who needs a nap or snack time. You don't believe that one either? His best friends, family, are Trump supporters, and we had to sit down and say, it may be best not to talk about politics with his friends, because he's too young to be losing friends over this. Yeah. I don't know about that. No, that could be true. That's a very clever kid, if that's true. I'm just suspicious of 10-year-olds in economic policy. Let me tell you who's on the line, Marjorie. Who's on the line? Who wants to talk about Laura Loomer, who, at this point, no one called? That would be one of our favorite people, that'd be Liliana from Marjorie's hometown of Fall River. Oh my goodness. How are you? I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm breaking out in hives. Breaking out in hives. Why? This is destroying me, the whole thing that what is happening. Being an immigrant, loving America the way I love it, and I see America going down the toilet. Really? And I cannot believe what is happening. But I have Italians have a lot of trousers, and I have one for you. He lives by the sword, dies by the sword, okay? Which sword are you talking about, Liliana? I'm talking about Trump, and then now I hope they won't let him play golf. I really hope that they will just lock him up in the room and leave him there. So it'd be safe until we decide that we don't want him. Until we decide we don't want him. Liliana, you are the best. We miss you. Call us more frequently. Thank you for your two cents there. We really appreciate it. We're talking about what you say to your kids about current events, politics, et cetera. Yeah. From Sean in the car, he says his nine-year-old asked about the first assassination attempt, and the father, Sean, the father said, "I just told the child that while I don't agree with everything Trump says, violence is never the answer." Which is a good thing, obviously, to say to your kids and assure them that you're going to keep them safe. Let's go to Jenny and Moulton. You're on Boston, public radio. Hi, Jenny. Hey, first time, long time. We love it. That's great. I like to talk to my kids a lot about history, and because I like to tell them, the president doesn't have all the power. They think the president can change things just like they're like a king. I had my mom talk to them about being younger than them and watching the Vietnam lottery on TV, waiting to see if her cousins or brothers are going to go to Vietnam. Before that, my grandmother was telling me about the Great Depression, and her mom was telling her about the Civil War. I like to keep those stories going and just remind them, however bad it is, the sun comes out tomorrow, and we've made it through harder times. That's pretty great. Hey, Jenny, before you go away, though, Margie was talking about when she used to talk to her kids. Occasionally, she was anxious about what the reaction might be. After a while, they just got bored and moved away. Do you have that experience? How many of that? A hundred percent. Okay. They're on their phone. They're on their phone. Oh, my God. Precious. I hear blue memories. Yep. There we go. They'll appreciate it someday. I was probably the same way. I love that intergenerational thing. Excellent first call, Jenny. We hope to hear from you again. Mary and Rockport text, Margie, and says, "I have a 13-year-old for several years now when I say to him, did you hear that XYZ happened an hour ago or today? He rolls his eyes and tells me how slow my news coverage is. Tick-tock informed them almost immediately that whatever was happened, these kids are much more highly informed than where they were getting to run it for. Yeah, totally different. But that puts a greater burden on the parent, do you think? Yes, because I think you can't shield them and you can't pretend that you're going to keep them safe and you wonder not to be too upsetting, but you wonder for these kids in the Middle East war zones, you know, the West Bank and Israel and Gaza and Ukraine. What are the parents to look to? That is real. We haven't talked about that. That is really hard. You know, speaking of that, you know, we all seven done, we all have a minute left here. What did your parents tell you about politics when you were a kid? I can't remember if we talked about politics at all, I'm embarrassed to say, did you? I just remember being scared, the spring, the MLK got shot in April, RFK got shot in June, and then seeing that Democratic convention the summertime and thinking. And then, of course, there were all the uprisings and college campuses and Kent State and all those things. It was a scary time, but, you know, I don't think I'm too demented, so I guess I got through with Jim. You're not too demented. What did your parents tell you? Did they tell you anything or just make it another aspect of sandwich? I think my mother said, "Get in bed, the salami sandwich will be ready in a minute." I think that was one of the more intense conversations. I really, you know, I don't remember much from my childhood. I don't remember. I don't think we talked politics at all, actually, which is, I mean, my mother was a single mother and she was busy and she had three jobs, so that may be the explanation. In any case, there were a lot of grown-up parents to call them, why? Yeah, any problem, just make Jim another salami sandwich? Well, by the way, I want you to know I'm not a kid anymore, and that still works. Okay. Bring them out. Jim seems to be really angry at bringing a salami sandwich, and that sort of always comes from you. Okay. Thank you very much for all your contributions. Not from Borsa. No, you just don't got a Borsa. They closed that plant, by the way, you know? Yeah, that was horrible, this theory. Anyway, thank you very much for participating in that little segment. Coming up after the new news, immigrants are, again, central to this hate-fueler rhetoric from the Trump campaign. We're going to talk with Amherst College, Elon Stavans about that, and since it's Mexico's day of independence, how that country is working with the U.S. at the border in a way that may surprise you, you're listening to Boston Public Radio 897 GBH. [MUSIC] [MUSIC] [MUSIC] [MUSIC] [MUSIC] [MUSIC] [MUSIC] The Eastern Browdy, I am Marjorie Eagan, and you're listening to Boston Public Radio 897 GBH Hour Number Two. We're going to be back at the library tomorrow with Attorney General Andrea Campbell for another edition of Ask the Attorney General from 11 to noon. Hello again, Jim. Hey there, Marjorie. We're joined now on Zoom by Elon Stavans, he's a professor of humanities in Latin America and Latino culture at Amherst College. Also, co-author of the forthcoming cookbook. We've been talking about this for about eight years, by the way. So, allegedly coming out next month, I'm going to get it right today, Sabor Houdio, the Jewish Mexican cookbook. I practiced the whole morning, Elon. I've got to be honest, Elon Stavans, who can't wait for the cookbook, and it's good to see you. It's lovely seeing you both. You know, I don't think I knew very much at all about the Mexico's Independence Day, so let's start with that. Something upbeat here. The measurement today is September 16, the SEC's this September, the day that Mexicans celebrate Independence Day, the other than the peninsula. Mexico was the first country in Latin America, of the 22 countries to get its independence from the European Matrix, Spain, and then a whole domino effect took place in the continent, Argentina, and Colombia, and others. Being so close to, I mean, there's a famous saying in Mexico, so far from God, so close to the United States, poor Mexico, remaining independent in one way or another with such a mighty neighbor, has not been easy in the middle of the 19th century. Mexico, after the Mexican-American War, had to give up a two-thirds of its territory, that is today the Southwest, but still Mexicans, all myself included, are very proud of being not the United States and very much Mexico, and this is an election year also south of the border in Mexico, and we elected, as you know, the first woman president for a country known for its macho identity, this was a major cosmic galactic event. I know another country that's known for its macho identity, do you know which one that is there? Elon Stavans? I am forgetting I have a major here right now. By the way, if you were to poll the average American and ask them, is Mexican Independence they sink out the macho, 98% would say yes, is that a fair? Absolutely, yes, and that's because there is a drink connected with sink out the macho in Margarita, and the minds of people that are not connected with, it's a patch in 2016. You know, one of the debates that's going on in Mexico is a debate that Margarita and I have actually right here in Boston, public radio, about how to pick judges, and we're not. What's going on in Mexico, and what are the ramifications of this thing? This arrives right in the middle of both of you. This is the very last act of, I have very popular Mexican president, the Lopez Obrador, who decided to exit, not before overhauling the entire judicial system in Mexico, having been the result of judges being trained and being appointed. For the very first time, judges are now going to be elected, they don't need to come from a particular school, they don't need to be affiliated to a particular party. There is a big uproar in Mexico, the country is divided, just like the two of you, some people think this is at this grace. Now it's going to be more volatile to become a judge, and without the heft and complexity and the knowledge that you need, in order to be trained in that field, others believe that the corruption, the nepotism that has lived for a long time in Mexico, where very, very few people trust the judicial system, is now finally going to be changed. As you can see from the news, there have been marches and protests and all kinds of debates. I think that this is probably the most important act that Lopez Obrador did, and I'm not a legal scholar, but to me, it's likely to be one of the most dramatic changes in a nation's judicial system in the last 30, 50 years, dramatic. What's your position on this, Elon? My position is, unlike that of many of my friends, that it is good to be elected. I grew up in Mexico, and I know of many who wanted to go into law, but they were very skeptical. My impression is that ultimately, this is going to invigorate both the trust that people have in judges, and they believe that you don't simply elect somebody who is a neophyte and an ignorant, but that people will have to present themselves in a competitive and comprehensive way to be elected by others. So I am happy with the change, but many, many educated people, and people who know more about the law, that I do feel very ambivalent about the whole thing. Well, just to explain to people who don't, and that includes myself, understand that much about the whole background here, because you mentioned nepotism and corruption. I think in the United States, and the reason Jim and I disagree, I think it's important to protect the judiciary in the United States from the whims of the electorate. If it's a very unpopular vote, I mean, I wonder how far we would have gotten with Brown versus Board of Education in the United States if the Supreme Court justices had to be reelected. So explain the difference between how history has defined the judiciary there that we don't understand. The difference, again, from somebody who has been a citizen, informed, but not coming from a law school, is that very often the judges in Mexico have been appointed by the year closest friends, family members, not because of their background. Even though they went to a particular school, they did it because daddy encouraged them to do so that they could get the job. So there's not much trust. You also have to understand that only the United States that has a legal system that in battle, as it is right now, with Trump on the one hand, in the Biden administration who wants to change the number of judges in the Supreme Court, that in and of itself is also a dramatic change. In Mexico, the trust in the authorities, the politicians, the judges, the police, has always been very, very low. There is a culture of bribes that affects the way your case is going to end up. And the vision that Lopez O'Rothera is proposing is that this overhaul is going to revitalize the way people believe in the system because they can throw out the judge who's doing a poor job by electing somebody new and not have these positions for life entrenched internally on popular and on democratic. But we will have to see, Lopez O'Rothera had a majority in Congress in the Senate, had many, many governors in favor. So it was an auspicious moment to do this change. And he leaves a country very differently from the one that he arrived to six years ago. I have no hesitation in describing him as an absolutely transformative leader, certainly in Latin America where leaders end up after their terms in jail or in exile. This man is loved by many people, not loved by the upper class. Not loved by the educated, but loved by many, many in the middle and working class. By the way, Jamie wants to know, do judges there on the highest court get free $250,000 RVs and trips on private jets? We are in a bad moment in the United States right now for trusting judges, particularly Supreme Court, particularly at this particular moment. But I do think that this is a relatively new phenomenon here. Can I just argue against myself for one second here? One of the things I read in the New York Times, and by the way, we've discussed the Biden thing. I think you mentioned Biden in passing, Biden does support term limits and enforceable ethics. He does not support expansion as far as I know, meaning the number which the Congress could do. It doesn't need a constitutional amendment. My reading and the concern of some was not legal, as you say, you're not a legal scholar, but political, namely that the potential for one very popular leader, like him, to lead to control every branch of government if it was through elections, again, which I support generally, was troubling. Does that not trouble you as a pro, let's elect him, person? But it troubles me absolutely, Jim, and I like when you kind of a talk against your own view of things. I rarely do that. Let me be totally clear, Elon, but go ahead. I often do it, particularly in the classroom, but you leave me the trust in Mexico in the judicial system was so under the level, so I don't know what word to use here that people feel that trying at least this is going to be a good step. But of course, once you make a dramatic decision, the way that this has taken place and you overhaul the whole system, taking a step back is not possible. You need another, so it is very likely that whoever is in power is going to be able to get the accolades, that bow to that individual. You have to trust, on the other hand, a country that has been experimenting with democracy only in the last 20 years, Mexico has had a difficult journey in its democratic history. It has had a long running single party ruler, the PRI, who itself appointed all the judges and had a very controlled envision. So now you move to the other side, the lefty side, and there are many that are very critical. The hope is that at some point we will find a middle ground where the trust in the judicial system is such that it can be separate from whoever is in power. It is very hard, in a country that inherited its Mediterranean Spanish view of judges as corrupt entities. We will see where this goes. You know, to end the discussion where we began, namely, where Margry and I are, for those who don't know, you may think, if you live in Massachusetts, which many of you listening do, where we don't elect judges, that's the norm. Virtually every state in America elects their judges, including Supreme Court judges. There was just that multi-million dollar campaign in Wisconsin to decide who to be the deciding vote in the Supreme Court there. Some are nonpartisan elections, some are partisan elections, but overwhelmingly in this country, state judges, not federal judges. And the truth, Jim, is that we will believe that the electorate will do the right thing. But as we will know, the electorate not always does the right thing, it can be the tyranny of the majority. It's still we have to trust that in democracy and pluralism, the voice of the people has the power. We want to talk to you about immigration, one of your other areas of great expertise. A few minutes ago, we played the nauseating quote from Donald Trump at last week's debate. Here is little Trump, Trump Jr., in an interview with Charlie Kirk on Real America's Voice talking about Haitian migrants, again, the vast majority of whom in Springfield, Ohio, are here legally, I should say. Here's a little bit of what Don Jr. ought to say. You look at Haiti, you look at the demographic makeup, you look at the average IQ. If you import the third world into your country, you are going to become the third world. That's just basically, it's not racist, it's just facts. So not only are they eating pets, they're stupid, according. The father says they're eating pets and the son says they're stupid, essentially, is what he had to say. What's your reaction to this incredible week? Incredible week indeed, I can't believe that it's not even a week after the debate. You use the word nauseating, that is a mild word in my view. Because this country imports people from other parts of the world. This country gets revitalized precisely because we have had Europeans and Asians and Latin Americans and Africans come and change us and change their life, spreading rumors about them as if they are awkward and primitive, it is only about scoring political points, but not about the reality that they face and the reality that all of us face. I don't know, I've been thinking all this week that we have to revise the word terrorist. If the terrorist is the individual that promotes terror, I think these things that the Trump's are saying are forms of terrorism. They are instigating the feeling that immigrants are here to undermine and to subdue and to push the United States into the edges, but all these Haitians that have been running away from a country that is very dysfunctional are doing the best they can in Springfield, Ohio and other places in order to build a new life. This is what the new colossus, give me the tire, your tire, your horn, your huddled masses, is all about the new immigrants that will be able to help us all become more plural and more diverse. You know, when I was reading these stories, I thought it was really sad in a way that once again the federal government has sort of let everybody down here because you can understand why in a small town, if you have 12,000 or 20,000, however many it is, come in new arrivals and there's a tax on the school, right, because you have to make sure you have English as a second language teacher, so there's a tax on housing because you can a lot of people are going to be willing to live many people in one place. There's cost to the town that are not, I mean there's obviously racism here with Haitian immigrants, but there's also just money and so Springfield is kind of left on its own. The governor said he's going to give him 2.5 million and I thought that's a drop in the bucket between the medical and the schools and the whole thing to enlarge so quickly, even though as you say most of these people there are legal and a lot of them are very highly educated. There was a doctor that was interviewed the day I saw him on television basically saying we're here, we're not going anywhere because it's life or death back at home. But if the federal government made this a little easier by giving some of these towns some money, so they wouldn't be in such desperate straits. Look at Marjorie, this is not that different, Springfield has a little place. We've had this here and we've had huge resentments here about well how come, what about the homeless veterans and what about the people that are homeless and from Massachusetts. And a lot of it comes down to thinking there's not enough money to go around in Springfield there probably isn't. There probably isn't and it's always a town that had to shrink because of the loss of jobs, now has a huge new population that looks different, that eats different things, that dreams different things and yet wants to be very much a part of that town. Many people welcome it, the town should get money, the school should have new ways of teaching the curriculum. When you have immigrants the town is being revived, others left because they couldn't perform any job. And the best revenge measure is going to be as it happens with the Mexicans or the Irish and the Italians and the Jews is that one of those immigrants is at one point going to be a Supreme Court justice or will have gone for mayor of the town and will be a mayor for everybody because that individual will have learned the right lesson. It's very distressing but the best we can do is to keep the voice of reason and equanimity in the air and in the classroom and let people know that this voices have been around since the beginning of the republic. Whoever comes from the outside is going to bring us down and yet since the beginning of the republic those individuals are the ones that have pushed us forward, they work hard, they pay their taxes, they send their kids to school and ultimately they improve us all. Well you know one other thing you should mention in light of what Marjorie said about the federal government not coming to the rescue, who is their representative to the federal government? J.D. Vance. Exactly. So there you go. You know one last thing you probably mentioned this last week and I was out sick but the fact that the father of the 11 year old boy who was killed in an accident and was so horrified to hear his son's memory politicized and called a murder wasn't it was an accident. And I thought that was wonderful that he gets up and just says that the town needs help. It doesn't need these vicious violent attacks. I thought what an incredible man loses 11 year old boy and to be able to make a public statement like that incredible margin. You know I've always thought that that a campaign a presidential campaign local state is a way to bring back it's a referendum of why we're all here and why we're all helping each other and how do we see our future but it is also an opportunity to raise fears and spread rumors and this one has been excruciating excruciating it was eight years ago or four years ago when we Mexicans were the criminals the bad ombre the rapists and now it's the next group that is being chosen and being put forward. By the way we did play while you were out Marjorie Nathan Clark as the father's name Aiden was the son who was killed and among the most courageous beautiful comments by a guy who suffered an immense amount of pain you know Elon while we have you we're going to talk to Khalil Jibran Mohammed in the one o'clock hour as since Harvard was one of the two schools that was sued over affirmative action that led to the decision of the Supreme Court last year and affirmative action in the last two weeks the statistics from what are described as the elite universities have begun to trickle out as to what the admission rate of black freshmen is as compared to pre the Supreme Court decision and one of those first quote elite places was your place Amherst College and the drop in the percentage of black freshmen is as precipitous at your place as anywhere from 11 to 3 percent what's the reaction and what is the leadership they are contemplating doing to deal with this if anything. The reaction Jim is dismay and it's also incredulity incredulity and I speak now as a teacher who spends most of my time in the classroom or outside with 18 to 22s and see the new generation coming forth it Amherst had done an astonishing job in diversifying the student population there were high numbers of people coming from the black community from the Latino from other communities and the decision by the Supreme Court has curtailed all that in being in the classroom there is no doubt in my mind that this has impoverished us the lack of diverse ideas not only in terms race doesn't mean that you have to think in a particular way but race means that you come from a different background that you can be class it can be education and when that richness is not there is incredibly painful the administration the president is very concerned has written repeatedly to the faculty looking for ways that are legal and still bringing in a particularly black students in other ways that compensate it's going to be a test in the next few years for many of these colleges and universities to see how to balance it having taught 30 years the last 10 years where the richest of my career in that sense of diversity and I am mourning that absence I am hoping that there will be different ways to compensate for it we all in this elite pseudo elite places are very mindful of the job we need to be doing to change society and this is a big hit we'll talk to you about it more good to see you on really appreciate you so much happy Independence Day we're gonna have a good time thank you we have been speaking with Elon Stavans professor of humanities from Latin American and Latino culture at Amherst College he is also the co-author of the forthcoming cookbook Jim give it a go here you're on your own Sabor Judeo the Jewish American cookbook out next month anyway it's going to be great and you love cookbook so we can talk about it when it arrives in Jewish Mexican cookbook up next a ballot question primer from a guy who's done all the research so you don't have to Evan Horowitz of Tufts Center for State Policy Research is going to join us and go through all the ballot questions you are listening to Boston about the Gradio 89 7 GB H. Welcome back to Boston Public Radio we're live at the library tomorrow the Attorney General Andrea Campbell is going to join us from 11 to 12 for S.D.A.G. I'm Marjorie no I'm not Marjorie again let me try that again I'm Jim Brody she would be Marjorie Egan reminder about a text prompt of the day a perversion of our afternoon zoo segment with Simon Cummery R.F.K. Jr. says he's facing federal investigation for driving the head of a whale carcass from the Cape to his place I think in Mount Kisco on the roof of the car want you to weigh in you know we have the pet eating in Springfield which is not true and we have R.F.K. we want to know your reaction to pet center stage and whales center stage in this campaign at 877. I can't even say the words 301 89 70 so voters in our state are going to decide whether to legalize psychedelic mushrooms the fate of MCAS is a graduation requirement and three other proposed laws on November 5 joining us now for ballot question one on one is Evan Horowitz Evan is executive director of the Tufts Center for State Policy Analysis they put out research fact sheets and it's fabulous by the way for each of the five questions on the ballot one through four are available at cspa.toughs.edu is that correct yes right yeah cspa.toughs.edu will tell you again question number five's analysis is out tomorrow Evan a great to see you how are you I was always good to be here Jim thank you Marjorie glad you feel better oh thank you very much Evan and thank you for joining us I think Jim thinks of himself as the ballot question I do see the gurus oh that's so heartwarming thank you well I think we have the next generation guru with us right now Evan to explain all this and for those who don't get it or or don't follow these things closely tell people how you even get to get a question on the ballot how's it all work it starts 40 years in advance when you start building support no it's a very long protracted process in which you build out support for an idea you get signatures you have the attorney general sign off that it's a legitimate proposal you get even more signatures the legislature doesn't act on it because they have a chance to step in and then you get approval to go on the ballot but this these questions that we're going to see in November have been moving forward steadily for 18 to 24 months let's just be clear you don't need legislative approval to get on the ballot you have the signatures and you pass muster but the legislature could step in and stop them but the legislature has an opportunity to say oh we'll take care of this this won't go to ballot by doing essentially what the proposal is correct exactly and the other thing that's really important is if a question is the past if it's constitutional amendment like the millionaire's tax or law changes like these five they have the exact same force that a constitutional amendment passed any other way or law passed by the legislature and signed by the governor that's exactly right these are just laws they're passed and if the legislature doesn't like them then the day after they're passed they could turn around and overrule them yeah exactly well it happened to me no i'm not going to be an american tragedy story no because you're an amok me i did have i've i won a few ballot questions in the 90s which were appealed by the legislature about a minute later so uh but we're not going to talk about it and i'm really glad you brought it up nobody's good for voters to know this that they have an important say but it's not the final word on the future of these issues well except let me just say jim i was going to make fun of you i think you got something passed it was really worthwhile that got turned over immediately by the legislature to tell people it was i'll just say in 30 seconds it was we would have been the not would have we became the first state on election day to in america to require that publicly traded corporations banks and insurance companies pay uh disclose publicly what they pay in state taxes it was on the front page of the globe like a bomb had been dropped because there many of them were paying absolutely nothing despite millions in profits and the legislature did of course what you would expect expect decided to change the laws as a result of those information no no no they decided to repeal the laws so we wouldn't know what the information was thank you for uh asking me about that first question we've talked about a lot on the show because the auditor diana de zaglio has sung to us on the show about the ballot question what would question one do they're evan harowitz so probably nothing um but what it purports to do is give the auditor the authority to investigate the legislature she already has the authority to investigate executive branch offices um but not the legislative branch this would at least in law empower her to do that um our assessment is it probably won't actually give her that power uh in so far as there are constitutional problems separation of powers issues um so of course probably won't allow her to oversee a lot of things but more fundamentally the the issue we're talking about the legislature just won't comply um they will either overwrite this law or cut her funding or you know kick the can or whatever it is uh she's unlikely to actually be able to pursue an audit that that's our assessment by the way Andrea Campbell who was with us immediately after her office certified this question for the ballot said those very things she didn't say that it's a done deal that the constitutional problems would got this but she said there may be constitutional issues we talked about it tomorrow too that may cause this even if approved by the voters forget what the legislature chooses that there was you said but may mean that it can't really be effectuated so that's one and she'll be back and by the way I should also say we are planning debates both sides on all five ballot questions in mid-october so we'll look on that uh some of these don't have an uh an official no side or yet you know they're missing opponents well that is a really important thing because as we get to the um uh repealing MCAS as a graduation requirement we've had max page in here who obviously is the president MTA every dollar from what I understand for the yes vote is from the mass teachers association which is perfectly legal yeah and correct me if i'm wrong but the history in the state of ballot campaigns is if one side dramatically outspends the other side the likelihood of the higher spending side prevailing is overwhelmingly good is that correct it's very good yes okay yeah money does make a difference money does make a difference and it's in somebody's surprising the business community has not been able to channel funds towards that they stand mostly on the no side of that question but the MCAS question well tell us again if you can what exactly would this thing do so currently to graduate from a public high school in massachusetts students have to meet district requirements and they also have to prove themselves to the state and the way they generally do that is by passing the 10th grade MCAS exam and this question would say no you don't have to do that anymore you just prove yourself to your district and that's enough for graduation the state won't have to play a role um the teachers union has supported this in the name of sort of greater local control greater autonomy for school districts and classrooms the business community has come loosely come together in opposition um wanting a floor over educational standards and the state having a role but as i say they've kind of struggled to coalesce you know um i i jim and i fight about this MCAS thing all the time but i'm i'm more what is the law and maybe this is out of your wheelhouse Evan but i'll try any way about lobbying you know you get all these you get thousands and thousands of kids in school all across massachusetts the teachers union wants this um there was a lot of discussion in the classroom about the charter school initiative so parents would be upset about the charter school stuff um and there was a lot of misinformation about the charter school stuff the charter school has got walloped uh how many years ago was it jim ten years ago it was like 60 to 40 it was over yeah it was overwhelming um can you just can schools discuss this with kids or parents i can't speak with any um authority on this question yeah i think they have a lot of logic the union has a lot of latitude to discuss you know their position on this so on yeah but i again the kids aren't voting right so it's for the most part my my daughter's a senior high school she has a couple of friends who are voting for the first time but most of the kids are not you know speaking of influence by the way that's question too uh repealing uh MCAS as a graduation requirement since it's often confusing what's a yes and what's a no even if you know what your position is let me say the red book that the secretary of state sends out is a great start it goes to every voter it's sent out again by uh bill galvin's office it's red so that's the red book and your thing goes into much greater depth uh which is huge tell us the website again if you want to get your analysis cspa.toughs.edu and you know the big difference is we try to assess claims right we look at other states we see what's going on we see with the impact it's not just sort of the yes side says this and the no side said that um it's a little easier for voters this year i think than in years past because in each case no is let's keep the status quo there are some questions where that's not true because those are affirmative questions rather than repeal where it's confusing exactly so in this case at least you you know that if you like things the way they are you can vote no in any way well you also in addition your analysis also say what the legislature could possibly do what its options would be should the thing pass which i think is of great value to people i appreciate that we get a lot of feedback from readers so you know we share these things in advance with people on both sides with independent readers we get assessments and one of the consistent pieces of feedback we get is um like laugh out loud comments about the likelihood that the legislature was stepping but i still think this is important to give them some suggestions because not all of these are let's say beautifully crafted or perfectly crafted or free of unintended consequences so i think there are real opportunities for legislature legislature to smooth implementation if they pass what's three three is let's set up a whole new system to allow ride share drivers to create a union because they are independent contractors so they can't form a union under traditional u.s. law but if the state sets up just the right system of regulation then they will be able to form a union and bargain for sector wide wages but an interesting kind of union where drivers who work for any for uber for lift for other ride share platforms will bargain with all the companies at once with uber and lift on the other side of the table and set rules for the whole industry um this is another one where even if it passes you're likely to see court challenges and delays it'll be very controversial because it would be a really a first in the nation effort to do this um but on both sides the first nation effort to do this for ride share drivers but to create this sort of sector wide bargaining approach in the united states so you'll have business interests on the ride share side that are opposed to any you'll have just anti union forces that are opposed to i'm assuming there's a lot of money on both sides of this one is that right yes unions and these uh rideshare companies not as much money as i would have expected going into it i think you remember there were supposed to be there might have been two ride share valid questions um and i think some of the interest in this got deflated when there was an agreement that uh mooted the first of them uh so not as much money as you might what did that what was the issue in the in the one that was resolved just so people understand are they independent contractors or will they be employees um that has been um pushed aside they're going to remain in some kind of limbo but treated as independent contractors but they have now baseline protections in terms of wages and benefits now no question for is the only one margarine cares about so why don't you take over well this is the most fascinating one i totally about legalizing psychedelic drugs and you just think i mean i've read all these stories about how some people with mental health issues or PTSD or whatever getting help from these um micro doses of things like uh psilocybin and magic mushrooms as we used to call them the same thing i only have i like to finish but i only have a size that because i find that there's a weird kind of two step in a lot of arguments around question four where people talk about the psilocybin benefits but then the build is a lot more than that it does it would legalize a whole bunch of much stronger drugs yeah so so it tells about it but and then tells whose idea where this come from you know it doesn't seem like it was at the top of anybody's list certainly not in state no no it came from folks who are working around the country to pass laws like this in other states so um there was an initial effort to legalize some psychedelics in Oregon um they have a very kind of control system and then they moved to Colorado and then they thought that this would be fertile ground so it definitely came from a group that's sort of moving these ideas around the country and looking for fertile areas to advance um psychedelic legalization what would it do exactly i mean without giving us a headache because i know it's a long and complex thing what's the gist of it the gist of it is it does split it in half okay on the one hand it immediately legalizes five psychedelic drugs psilocybin that's magic mushrooms and another magic mushroom ingredient um dmt which ayahuasca ibogaine which is a kind of very powerful root and mezcalin which is in peyote so those get immediately legalized for uh you can grow them at home you can use them you can share you can distribute them you can't buy them in a retail store you cannot buy them but you can give them away okay um so that's half of it the other half is over time we would create therapy centers where people could use these drugs under the guidance of facilitators that takes three three to five years to set those up but if they chose not to go to a therapeutic center which doesn't even exist yet they'd be doing it at home unsupervised correct or potentially unsupervised correct so it what is the argument for why this is a good idea because these are powerful drugs some of them are really powerful drugs yeah i think the loose argument for why it's a good idea is um there are some preliminary some more advanced studies showing real benefits of some of these drugs under controlled conditions so if you have treatment resistant depression if you're struggling with sort of end-of-life anxiety um there's growing evidence of the value of psilocybin in particular to less so for some of these other drugs and i think that just plugs into a broader sense that these are transformative mind-altering experiences that more human beings should be able to enjoy um and that gets bundled together do you remember on our show years wait years and years ago margarine michael pollen who is no slouch yeah he wrote that book something about changing your mind or something about using these kinds some of these kinds of drugs on the beneficial impact right and a lot a lot's been written about and and they may very well work with with a mention of some of these other things but that's the problem it's it's not about using them under appropriate supervision it's kind of about growing them in the no and if you're in this something like that pantry like i think it has serious cardiac implications i mean we heard that like no one should use it without a defibrillator nearby and you know yeah it's going to be legalized for personal use not everybody has a defibrillator and i don't know how much public education is going to come around you know you know uh some people really um are transformed by the experience of using ayahuasca but it is a acutely um distressing experience when you're going through it and something i everybody is prepared for this is a very yeah these are so very serious experiences so who's on the no side get don't legalize yeah so again there isn't a kind of strong no coalition there are some psychiatric groups who are very concerned about it um and you know that they're trying to raise awareness but you know because this wasn't on anybody's radar there hadn't been built up over time you know coalitions in favor or oppose to this um and i think it's it's hitting people sort of by surprise okay let me ask you one last question why it would seem to me if you wanted to get these drugs legalized for possibly legitimate uses what you would have done is is try to get them legalized in a controlled setting instead of like i said growing them and you're wherever you're going to grow them so why this approach it seems an odd one so i also if i were designing this i would have gone sort of more the organ way that's what they said psilocybin is promising let's set up some therapy centers where people can get treatment with those and that's it um and we went a different way in part because i think people are imagining a broader set of benefits that aren't really clinically linked like that they think that's the strongest argument let's talk about the research but actually when they think about the benefits they think about kind of mind altering experiences and that's a broader class and i think it's fine but as i say that psychiatrists are worried on a number of fronts one these experiences can be traumatic for anyone but for certain class of people with bipolar disorder people with schizophrenia people with underlying conditions they can have um kind of severely damaging impacts by the way you also in your summary talk about the experiencing colorado right in Oregon which is of great value question five is question five is the tipped minimum wage uh and this one has been on the radar for a very long time people have been talking about it but the basic idea here is this if you're a tipped worker right now your tips can count for the minimum wage you are guaranteed fifteen dollars an hour like everybody else in the state but you're not guaranteed to get fifteen dollars an hour from your employer your employer can pay you six dollar and 75 cents and provided that your customers pay you eight twenty five that's okay you get to fifteen um and this would say no that's not okay the restaurant has to pay you the full fifteen and you get tips on top of that and what how many states are doing i know there's a lot of talk about this around the country who else is doing this thing so there are seven states that do not have a separate tip minimum wage that is everybody gets the full minimum wage but those seven states have been doing it for a long time no state has recently switched from a situation where they have like we do a separate men why does that matter well because we don't really know what the transition looks like and it could be complicated so the closest examples washington d_c_ they are they're not a state right but they are in the middle of a transition and it seems to be working okay you know it's not like a collapse the restaurant industry but there's a lot of chaos around service fees um and what the restaurants do because of the easiest thing for restaurants to do if they suddenly have to pay more for the people working there just say well we'll attack on an additional charge to every meal in the form of service fee so let me understand something it i think we we gradually get there in twenty twenty nine is that right twenty twenty nine to be fifteen bucks the minimum wage for everybody and then something unusual happens to the tips correct what is that so under the ballot yeah at any point any any restaurant or any facility that is paying the full minimum wage with the players can then pull their tips even if it's before twenty twenty even if it's before twenty twenty nine correct can pull their tips and then share them with a full staff not just with a weight staff with kitchen staff with accountants with as long as they're not managed managerial with full non-management staff and this has been controversial lots of people who got into this industry because they like hustling for tips or think this is a big part of their job don't like the idea of having their tips taken and pulled um so this this has been a sort of controversial uh second issue let's say a secondary issue in this ballot question is there anything we should know in general about this whole set of questions as we approach November 5th or i mean the things to keep in mind there are too many of them right like asking voters to become expert on five very different questions with meaningful implications in a short period of time is probably unreasonable um some of these are highly technical the unionization question is 30 pages of regulations the marijuana or the medicine the psychedelic question is 35 pages of technical regulations like these are very uh detailed and you know we have a very smart citizenry here in massachusetts but they're also busy doing their own stuff right they don't i spent months right with my team working through this not everybody has months and it's probably unreasonable to ask people to on the other hand they got to do it so learn as much as you can get as informed as you can and go forward because we don't have a choice right now so the best way for them to do that to get informed and to understand these at least in some sense is what Evan Horwitz I mean I think it's too I think it's to read our work like we spent a lot of time talking to everybody as I say everything we do it's gone through independent review it's been looked at by folks on both sides you know we're really rigorously trying to be nonpartisan on these questions so yeah go to cspot.toughs.edu and we have them we have four of them there and we'll have the fifth one tomorrow and uh and write to them if you don't understand anything cspa.toughs.edu and I assume all of you as I said have gotten the red book if you're a registered voter from the secretary of state solvus if you haven't uh call the secretary of state and they'll send you uh send you one yeah because you could be you could be in the voting booth for like 45 minutes you're gonna you're gonna read the whole thing yeah forget it that's not gonna happen well the other alternative martyr you were mentioning this morning his voters could take all five months like the legislature and they could use that time to study a month for a question don't you think oh my god well you know what's something I think in the history of ballot questions in Massachusetts sometimes Jim you just never know which side is telling the truth you ran into this years ago of course when you were leading the question. Marcy wrote a disgusting piece in the Boston hurl in 1990 when I was doing a campaign against the late Barbara Anderson citizens limited taxation saying not only that you don't know who to believe Barbara or Jim but the Jim wears whale pants and drives a Volvo now not only did I not have a Volvo yet yeah I've never been in a room with whale pants she could see the future she knew it coming I could see it coming the true story by the way it was the hell of a column and then you guys are doing spectacularly important work and thank you for doing it really appreciate yeah thank you for helping to explain all this because it is very confusing and and you've done a really good job listen as you get closer if you realize that there's some part of this that you thought you understood that you didn't let me know we'll call you back yeah I'm here Evan thank you so much really appreciate it thank you we've been speaking with Evan Horowitz he's the executive director of the stuff of the Tufts Center for state policy research state policy analysis we have a typo sorry sorry sorry state policy analysis which is put out these research facts for the five questions that we just talked about okay here's where you go if you want to get this information cspa.toughs.edu that's for center for state policy analysis cspa.toughs.edu and I think what their number five analysis is gonna be out tomorrow we gotta go up tomorrow okay Evan thank you very very much up next our text in segment of the day okay this is kind of a weird uh dead animal version of our wonderful time we have assignment garmory um RFK jr. says he's facing federal investigation for chainsawing the head off a dead whale carcass from Cape Cod at the root of his car and driving to New York in addition to his adventures with bears and other things um what do you think about all this animal involvement in the election of 20 24 because of course Trump advanced just can't stop lying about abducted and eating dogs and cats in Springfield Ohio you'll seem to Boston public radio 89 7 GBH. Welcome back to Boston public radio Jim Brody and Marjorie again it's time for our tech segment of the day today's is as Marjorie said sort of a perversion of one of our favorite segments afternoon zoo with Simon Gummy this one is courtesy of RFK jr. as if the bear carcass and the brain worm was not enough he now says he's under a federal investigation for his handling of a whale carcass years ago that was disclosed by his daughter who was 10 at the time his daughter was quoted in town and country in 2012 that he once chainsawed the head of a dead whale he found on a beach in Cape Cod who hasn't done that by the way who has and drove it back to their home in New York I think Mount Kisco with the whale head affixed to the roof of a minivan with all the liquid from the whale head dripping into the car so what is it with RFK and weird animal carcass stories uh what are the textures saying Marjorie we know how you feel well you know the first one that texted kind of captures what I think too what do you say texture says I'm just still trying to figure out how we got here that we're even talking about immigrants eating pets and a crazy old man with a brain worm collecting animal carcasses that's a very good point WTF is this reality and then the meal um in Marjorie wants to is trying to sort through the pet eating issue as well and wonders if of course South Dakota governor just you know has a position on the issue because she's the one who shot the dog and the goat the puppy actually um and a goat and by the way RFK says that was not a picture of him actually trying to bite into a cooked dog it was actually a cooked goat by the way they can't say some anyway some people who text that are also trying to implicate mint ramen in this which is very unfair it is true he did put his dog Seamus on the roof of his station wagon when his kids were young but it was not the head of Seamus nor was Seamus dead he just decided that Seamus liked it on the roof and he sat on the cart now our friend Andy Barowitz wrote about not so much RFK the great satirist he wrote about the whole pet eating in Springfield not happening he writes JD Vance revealed on Monday that he's he is talking non-stop about pet eating in the hopes of dispelling the widespread impression that he is weird he says that spreading baseless rumors about immigrant pet consumption makes him way more relatable than Tim Woll's quote quote any weirdo can order a donut talking incessantly about pet eating is something normal people do that's what JD Vance but i'm serious you know back to RFK so we have the bear that was dead that he deposited in Central Park in Central Park and in Central Park and tried to pretend yeah he picked up a baby cub karket run a bike park put in his car drove it from somewhere up north or something yeah back to Central Park left it in Central Park there and like pretending it was hit by a bicycle okay which is pretty bizarre then he's got the worm in his head worm in his head which is pretty weird the worm by the way it's not his fault for the newness not his fault the worm world of conflict the New York Times talking about this section of RFK's RFK's brain that he had already eaten and how many sections were left to go and then there's this whale carcass thing so you're gonna save yourself Jim how odd is it in this in this in these troubled times in these precarious place we're in in the world to have two would-be presidents of course RFK wanted to be president too you did plus plus the vice president fixated on this way on dead animals i mean it's bizarre trump and and Vance keep talking about it by the way and so does an anonymous texters says Kennedy is a bloody idiot figuratively and literally that would be absolutely true by the way i'm very disappointed if we should have invited people to text and say how many of you have had a dead whale head carcass on the roof of your car i think in the spirit of fairness which we intend to embrace more often than not here it may not be that unusual for outdoors types as the uh but it apparently is illegal usually that you know people kill deer they you know hunt them for the venison or they kill a moose or something but he's got a thing about dead animals he wants to keep them and possess them yeah but i mean he also has a chain so he keeps in his car i mean that that in and of itself is a little odd in any case we're done margarine yeah we are moving on we are moving on yes we are up next we're not going to talk about him anymore um we're coming up to what are we talking about next gen we're talking about kaleel jabron mohammed we are yes he is back and again and we're going to talk to you about the end of affirmative action what this what this means for this year's college class and um after clauding game with harvard harvard's leadership is so white what is up with that you're listening to boston pothic radio to boston pothic radio 89 7 gph welcome back up whoops it's you sorry it's okay it's okay it's all right he's jim browdy i'm margarine egan this is our number three of boston pothic radio 89 7 gb h we're going to be at the boston pothic library tomorrow broadcasting live with attorney general andrew kimble for another edition of ask the ag from 11 to 12 hallow again jim hi i just want to say when we're getting a bunch of people asking what was the website for evan harvard to tufts and he's done the analysis of the five ballot questions you'll be voting on in the next month uh you don't need to remember cspa center for state policy analysis dot tufts dot edu if you just google tufts and ballot questions uh you'll be led to the site which does the analysis of the five ballot questions so you can check that out yeah he did a great job a great job no i agree and it's really important and he's right there a lot of ballot questions and it's really confusing some are really complex so in any case last year the spring quarter got rid of race conscious admissions at colleges now a new a class of students are taking to campus a far less diverse spectrum of students than here to four join now talk about how the decision affected this year's higher education admissions and more with kaleel jiran mohamadee is a harvard kennedy school professor of history race and public policy and a bpr contributor it's great to see you thanks for your time thanks so much great to be back on the show great so so what do we know so far about how the supreme court's action has impacted the entering classes at some of the most elite colleges in the country what do we know yeah well we're getting a lot of reporting uh based on uh data that is now being released by a number of universities particularly the most selective universities about who has enrolled in their 2024 fall class and we are seeing some pretty dramatic dramatic declines they are not even across all institutions but at the top of the list we see that amherst university fell by about 73 percent in terms of the number of black students over two-year average before the supreme court decision as compared to this entering class brown university reporting about a 65 percent decline mit 65 percent uh so on and so forth harvard university is just about a quarter percent its fall class last year was about 18 percent black it's down to 14 percent black this year and a report from an organization called education resources now is reporting that if you look across about 50 schools you'll see that three quarters of those school black enrollment is down in some cases Hispanic enrollment is also down but not nearly as dramatically across the board for asian and asian immigrant students the numbers in some cases have stayed the same some small upticks and some small down ticks so a lot of heterogeneity in terms of across racial groups but make no mistake about it the headline here is that for african-american and for black students in general we see dramatic declines in many places and obviously the next question is what to do about it we've discussed that we've been in the past we're going to talk about it again in a minute but should one conclude i know it's early on that for the quarter of schools uh that didn't see a dramatic change in its freshman class in terms of black student admission and i think prince then in which you have some connection to and yell or among them are they doing something already to attempt to achieve the same goal without violating the mandated spring court or is it just serendipity for lack of a better expression well i think that first of all anyone who can tell you exactly what all these places did to end up in the situation that they face um is is either on an admissions committee and is speaking from direct first add knowledge about that university none of us can know for sure exactly what's going on what we do know is that the supreme court did uh carve out this space through the essay writing process where someone could identify their own individual relationship to their racial identity um and so the extent to which the use of the essay and yell and princeton may have tipped the scales towards maintaining uh their goals um it could be but i don't know so the two things that we have heard most talk about this is leading up to the decision and subsequent to the decision that could possibly restore some more balance to the diversity numbers was one taking into account socioeconomic status like to know your thoughts about that and another uh uh approach which um uh amazingly is one that is favored by a guy who was a beneficiary of affirmative action but now hates affirmative action that be Clarence Thomas the system in texas where the top ten percent graduates of all the high schools uh are eligible for admission i assume the ut or whatever what do you think of either of those uh kaleel jabramahama i think that the ut system has been success i'm sorry not the ut but the texas system has been successful um in terms of ten percent obviously the the amount of segregation that exists in society based on where people live has a dramatic effect on where people attend school particularly public schools and as a consequence it has been successful in texas in terms of uh maintaining levels of representation on those campuses it also rewards high achieving people uh who are black and brown um from public schools that might not otherwise attend um by simple virtue of their competing at uh amongst their peers in other words they're high performing within the context in which they are attending schools based on all the layers of disadvantages that we know and there's been an an old saw for example that basically says and it is true that typically students coming from a background where they have greater barriers to educational opportunity tend to bring that hustle um and that sense of accomplishment overcoming those barriers into these universities listen there's a way in which to critique the existing policies of race based admissions not on the term that the supreme court did which is to throw out essentially the actual meaning of the 14th amendment but to critique it on the basis of it may not have actually been the most uh sophisticated way to ensure that the opportunity structure is to a league uh or selective schools uh was most efficient and effective our colleague uh here at GBH Shirley Lee I wrote a great column today I'm one of many great columns today it sort of works at the globe too you know what i mean she does she works at the Boston Globe she's business columnist there but I consider her a colleague because she's so great with us anyway this just I've said this to you before Khalil I mean I think of Harvard University and my alma mater Stanford's up there too it's pretty pretty important you know colleges and in in in the country sets the laws they're they're loaded you know Harvard's loaded Stanford's not as loaded but it's pretty loaded that they could stand up to some of these forces against them I'm always surprised that that they don't anyway her point is Claudine Gay people remember she was the first African-American to be present Black one to be president of of Harvard University and she's gone uh pushed out basically but six of the seven major leadership appointments at the university since she left have gone to uh white people and four of those new appointments are Jewish people so what's going on here well um the the decision makers in terms of the future at least the near term future of Harvard University have reversed course uh there's really no other way to put it an effort to take the oldest university almost 400 years old uh to have it better reflect in its faculty and administrators the actual population of undergraduates um it has now essentially been brought to a screeching halt um in my own reporting structure uh I now report to a dean who is wonderful guy Jeremy Weinstein came from Stanford uh he's uh white guy's Jewish the provost John Manning um who came from Harvard Law School who is uh a conservative in terms of having once clerked for Antonin Scalia no problem there uh but white guy's Jewish um my executive uh president vice president of the university also uh Jewish and Alan Garber the president um so take it for what it's worth people will say well they all learned their right to be there and anybody else who was not a white person um should be questioned as to how they arrive there but that is a fact and the truth is that Harvard University across most of its faculty ranks remains a very white and male institution so the only way you get to change those numbers in terms of decision making and leadership is to make sure that the undergraduate and graduate populations are also uh continuing to push and provide the kind of quality uh excellent education even for an elite institution so that one day those leaders will actually have the opportunity structure well once again there will be a black or brown or an Asian or a Latino uh leader of this university so uh the intimation by Shirley and her piece or at least some people with whom she spoke suggested that the large number of Jewish leaders was a function of an attempt to appease donors after what happened last year do you subscribe to that school of thought? I think I'd be a fool not to ask the question again um any of us who are part of understanding how the world works um and particularly within a university context have to ask these questions so in a world where it's okay for an entire party in this country the republican party in this instance uh and many uh voters believe that Claudine Gay was selected because she was black and therefore didn't deserve the opportunity um I think it is fair to ask the question to what extent did donor pressure and political pressure compel the current leadership of the university to appoint a number of significant Jewish leaders at this time did you mention Marjorie that of the six or seven this is from Shirley Leung's piece six or seven uh leadership members teamed or a white three of them replaced black people who were in the positions before which is even to me yeah more jarring what do you make of that Khalil? Well again I mean people listen if if Jonathan Swain was here for this conversation he'd say that each instance of leadership change is its own story um so okay fine that being said Michelle Williams who was the Dean of Chan, Bridget Terry Long who was the Dean of the Education School and of course Claudine Gay who had been the Dean of Faculty Arts and Sciences each one of them does have their own particular story but that doesn't change the fact that Larry Bacall who appointed each um actually Michelle Williams was appointed by Drew Faust but in the case of Bridget Terry Long and Claudine Gay it was Larry Bacall who appointed them I spoke to Larry many years ago he was very proud of his commitment to diversifying the leadership ranks of this university and he himself is a Jewish man so the fact that they were followed up with the same profile that we've seen at this university for hundreds of years is to some degree troubling. She raises another great point about black scholars you're a black scholar and you're leaving Harvard to go to Princeton she asked in her column what a star black scholar would want to hold a position of power at Harvard right now they would have targets on their back. Do you agree with her? Absolutely there's no question about it I mean listen when uh for significant African-American women have been targeted by the university and yes I include Claudine Gay in that number down to an untenured sociology professor whose reputation was attacked in a way that didn't hold up to third-party scrutiny and yet the mere accusation of plagiarism for a person at that stage of the career can be ruinous to that person's professional career so if I'm looking on the sidelines wondering what is the culture of Harvard University for black faculty staff and administrators especially when there have been very few if no public statements in defense of the black community at Harvard in terms of faculty and administrators I would think twice about coming to this university as well and I would advise people to do so. By the way you're sick of us mentioning this but you're one of those people of those who haven't heard our prior discussions with a professor here he was singled out by Virginia Fox the chair of the committee that did all this interviewing questioning of the university presidents and he was singled out as the root of the problem there at Harvard University and you didn't get much support from the leadership of your university in the wake of that did you or did you? Certainly no support from Garber or any senior leaders of the university that Dean of the Kennedy School who's now a former dean Doug Almondor did it send me some notes of encouragement so I will have to give him credit. Private notes of encouragement or public support. I can send you a private note if you want a private note. Bear enough, bear enough but you didn't let that one slip up. Okay so there's one I just want to say one other thing about Shirley's column which is Fabis I called Shirley about it this morning. You always it was most upset well not most of saying every part of it was upsetting. I said something like why did you only speak to this guy and that be you and do you know what her answer was? You guess what her answer was what was her? She couldn't get anyone else to talk. Yeah that is really at Harvard University with a lot of tenured souls who theoretically have strong opinions nobody else would talk on the record we're sure a little young about this. I just want to ask you I asked you this before but I'll ask you again because I think it's such a fundamental question as I said before Harvard has got was it an endowment some incredible 50 billion. Yeah 50 billion and I think you would say it's the most famous university as you say 400 years old in the country. Why is it knuckling under like this so you know what I mean they give a no. I mean that this is looking pretty bad. I mean I think it speaks to I mean so if you're responsible for Harvard at this point you might take the view that we are as as prestigious and as wealthy and as powerful as we are precisely because we know how to manage through crises and we know that being conservative in times of tumult and and crises is the way to actually properly manage this university to be good fiduciary in the terms of a board management leadership over an organization like that. My guess a total guess is that is baked into the culture of of the university. Kwaidad odds would say Michael Roth who is the president of Wesleyan University who has essentially called Howard Harvard cowardice for its position and punishing expressive activity on his campus going forward this year and in the future. By the way we have raw sound and this is in response to the Harvard maintaining a position which I hope you can explain to us again of neutrality on I don't know if it's non-core issues you'll explain it to us a minute. Here he is talking to CNN's Ode Cornish last Thursday about Harvard's leadership deciding to stay out of a lot of controversial political issues. Here he is. They think Trump might win and if he wins and you say the wrong thing they'll come after you and if you say nothing they won't come after you they'll just come after your your undocumented students they'll come after you or they may come after your gay students they will come after your students of color and you're not going to say anything to me it is cowardice it's an application responsibility. I never heard of this guy he's my new hero. So what is the policy of neutrality and to what does it apply at Harvard now? So sometime over the summer Harvard adopted a policy that had been in place at the University of Chicago for decades since the late 1960s in the midst of that university's own anti-war protests inspired by criticisms by students of the born Vietnam and in a nutshell the policy essentially says that the university shall no longer take positions often positions of empathy in the case of world tragedy war or other significant global events including domestic ones of which students often make demand on the university to speak in solidarity of one point of view or another and so this notion of institutional neutrality essentially says that because these are always highly charged and sometimes partisan issues where there is no clear position in the world Harvard would inevitably alienate one part of its constituency or another and therefore we will no longer take positions. By the same token they have maintained a commitment at least to speaking on matters that pertain directly to the function of the university and perhaps to some degree higher education more generally which by the way would include all the madness that is going on with the committee on education and workforce development which is attacking higher education or in the case of JD Vans who has literally promised to destroy universities for the liberal takeover that they represent in which case most of what we're talking about today pertains directly to the university in its future. Where did JD Vans go to school I forget where to go to school again I can't remember where to go yeah law school yeah law school huh what a coincidence it's amazing yeah you often wonder what you know we're criticized as so many people criticize schools like Harvard and the other being so ultra liberal and yet some of our most rabid conservatives came out of Harvard and yeah like advanced you got Josh Hawley right Ted Cruz right DeSantis I mean I don't know there it must be a little corner somewhere that they're all hanging out together I guess that's it. Well it is the it is the perfect expression of hypocrisy here these individuals um by dent of all the hard work that they participated and I'm not criticizing them on those terms use the privilege and platform associated with their own educational pedigree to then use their influence to try to to shut down the pipeline for others behind them and one could argue potentially that Ted Cruz and others DeSantis would not be up in arms about Harvard and its prestige but for the fact that these universities have caught up with the world we live in which is a world where the majority of people are of color which is the world where the majority of those people of color have been on the short end of resource extraction and power imbalances tied to slavery and colonialism and that the world is changing and for most of us that's a good thing but for them it's not and they are turning this into a political fight where the existential realities of higher education in this country are under the greatest assault perhaps that they've ever been in and in fact I mentioned JD Vance but Donald Trump is campaigning now on promising to use the full weight of the federal purse and the accreditation process and partly inspired by Project 2025 to change the way that universities get accreditation which would then create a chilling effect or incentivize them to roll back so many gains that have unfolded over the past four decades this is this is not something that we can look a scan set as just the kind of anxieties of privileged elites hidden behind their Ivy League gates this will change fundamentally the way truth is established in this country and all the policies that flow from fact finding that is required for us to understand how to live in this world including the science of climate change. I had a stupid political question after that but I'd be embarrassed to ask it after that what you just said it was a perfect ending and then for once I'm gonna leave it as it is it's great to see you as always thanks for your thoughts. Thanks so much. Thank you thank you very much we've been speaking with Carl Jibron Mohammed he's Harvard County School Professor of History, Race and Public Policy and a Boston Public Radio contributor. Boy this is tough stuff but up next we're changing gears and going to the issue of cleaning up your clutter in the house do you belong to the cult of cleanliness firm in your belief that if everything had its proper place you'd be healthier more productive and happier yes I do 150% will open the lines to ask you yes you do oh god what are you talking about are you kidding I've seen your side of the studio by the way what I'm saying not as bad as your side of the studio what I'm saying is Jim that if I had everything in its proper place oh I agree with it I'm sorry my life would be it would just be I wouldn't even be upset about JD and Don okay okay we're gonna open up the lines to ask you about clutter how you feel about it next you're listening to Boston Public Radio 897 GBH welcome back to Boston Public Radio Marj Regan and Jim Brody worth the library tomorrow Attorney General Andrea Campbell joins us for SDAG that's from 11 to 12 we're ending the show by asking about the relationship between clutter productivity and happiness at 877-301-8970 we read this piece in the Guardian that asks is it time we become hotel managers of our own homes making sure every little thing has its designated resting place what about this new trend of storage bins for everything you may remember Japanese lifestyle influence from Marie Kondo famously went from the queen of tidying up to the queen of clutter ever after having a couple of kids embracing little piles of previously did not bring her joy so where do you stand you go in a full panic every time you have company over fearful you'll be judged for having things in your home one of the greatest bits ever by the way that of course would be the great comedian Chris Fleming who ridiculed us mercilessly at his show at the Wilbur last year or do you embrace the life-changing art of putting things in piles or shoving the mess into a lesser used closet what's your tidying up method if you have one and how are you living a cleaner tidier life if you are or you're more like let's say Marjorie chaos reign supreme in this guardian piece of Marjorie they say that clutter decreases the the spillover effect it decreases your productivity and by the way this is not just in the home it's in work etc and and I totally subscribe to this it causes you to eat less healthfully is that the right word or healthily whatever it is you know why I think that is they don't say this part I think because you become not you one becomes the clutter when you're surrounded by clutter you become clutter and I that's why I think I it is totally true I eat crap your food and I am less productive when I'm surrounded by piles and mountains of crap all around me yeah you feel kind of overwhelmed you feel kind of overwhelmed that piece talks about feeling calmer sainer happier you know Condo is used to point out Marie calmer's always talking about sparking joy and you know she's got her three kids three little kids so you can see why she's kind of given up for the time being but I do think it makes you feel better I mean it's like the days if you if you if you if you're if you're splurge and I've done it for years even when like you know when I was young to hire people to come clean your house oh to clean your house not to tidy up and they come once a month whatever it is that day you get back from work and the house is clean and it smells like Murphy's oil soap and everything is a range and there's not dust but it's like big pen it goes back to what it was like in an hour I mean that's the peanuts character for those who don't know I think I think clutter is what I'm always buying things to declutter like what like what well a box it put well acrylic boxes those are big to like put them in the bathroom to put all your stuff in and that's the other thing you know we have all these extra shampoos and body lotions and it's hard for me to throw those things out I'm not a hoarder but it's hard for me to throw those things out but you put them in one box but the problem is then you get put them in one box then you have to put them in another box to put the rest of stuff in I mean this piece talks about how you know my sister did she put a lazy Susan inside her new refrigerator so that the the mustard and the and the condiments and lazy so would they wouldn't be in the back of the refrigerator they kind of roll and react and roll around inside the refrigerator I thought that was like a wonderful a breakthrough and this other story and this is over the top that you might do something like have a rotating sunglass organizer to hold all your sunglasses I mean I know that most people have that many pairs of sunglasses but food storage boxes the other thing I bought I bought this thing they had them online that were on sale one of those you know Amazon Prime Days and I know I shouldn't be buying things really I'm gonna do all these um pyrex because you can never find the cover because you can pile them up well oh the extra covers you never find you always lose the covers you were amazing yeah and for a while anyway I've got all these pyrex containers with the covers on them I'm not going to take the covers off that's a problem if you want to use them exactly yeah exactly how to take covers off that's the problem I'll cross separate okay can I tell you something else we had a boss uh I don't know if you remember him at our old radio station you remember the guy who when you walked in his office I'm not gonna say his name he's from Philadelphia just like I am I want to be like him how much is on his desk nothing how much is on his shelves nothing and well he's the pictures of his family and what did he say about his email he never went home at the end of the day I have not having answered every single email either you answer everyone that matters or if it doesn't matter enough to answer it you erase it when he would get to work he would occasionally have four emails and they'd all be gone or responded to yeah in hours now there's another side of that you know I think he retired about 50 and went to play golf in some place down in Florida he did one of those gated communities where they ran around the golf carts or the villages the villages right and he's got that disease now which is like no he doesn't because I don't know that was a joke that was a very bad joke you know not everybody loves a clean or tidy house in office here's some sound this clip from the A&E show hoarders where one of the namesake hoarders was less than enthused once she had a new and clean home here she is everything that I really loved in my house is going this is horrible I hate this whole bathroom I hate it and and so I mean I did I hate it I feel bad for I'm gonna tell one more story and I hesitate to tell it because mr. Jerusalemi you remember his name okay this one is a story 150 one of my clients when I was legal services lawyer was mr. Jerusalemi and he was 84 years old he's about four feet ten four feet ten and he had what is called a Collier's Mansion right a Collier's Mansion was named after two sisters the Collier sisters in New York City who were hoarders before we used that term I'm gonna tell briefly because Margry's angry that I'm telling it but it's a great story so the landlord who loved him was going to evict him I represented him and unless his house was cleaned and he loved him the reason the only reason he was doing this is a fire hazard obviously so he wouldn't clean up his apartment so I am my best friend at the time Jerry Klein who became a judge several years later who is bigger than I am not taller but bigger and stronger we went to mr. Jerusalemi's house he's punching us as we're removing things we're finding hundreds of dollars shoved in the bathtub in between newspapers we finally empty his apartment out after hours to make a long story short go to court the next day the landlord's not there yet I say to the judge I can affirm that we totally cleaned up the apartment so you can dismiss the case at which point the landlord runs in outer breath and what does he say Margry he put everything right back in he took everything from the sidewalk and returned every piece of crap to his house because like that woman on the hoarders that's the way he was comfortable living that's extreme I would admit one of the textures says there's something called clutter clutterers anonymous dot org what is it 12 step program and this person says they're a member I I haven't had a chance to look it up but that's what they they say to help them deal with their their cluttering so we want to know your relationship to clutter are you tied to your upper have you learned to live with a clutter and prosper or not prosper whatever it is let's go to Scott in South Boston hey what along with you guys hi I am and I don't function if there's clutter all over my table over my kitchen counters I literally cannot do anything but be grouchy and hangry about the fact that there's stuff all over the place so what do you do about it oh every I mean my wife to be careless my kids obviously could care less every night so I can even get into bed in the kitchen and I hate it hate so much that I feel good of it being done as much as it touches me out so much when it's not done like the older show is like a lot more well give me that we can all of the emotion you just described came through in your voice Scott thank you for sharing your perspective with us that is a problem when you're in a relationship and one of it's sort of like what was the name of the famous the odd couple right yeah a couple wants a swab and one is neat yeah that's a problem yeah I totally agree with Marjorie about desire for cluttering and all the peace and increased productivity and better eating it will bring the problem is I don't know where to start and I end up huddled on the couch with ice cream and cookies well you know the key it doesn't solve the problem long term but you touch boxes are really no again that doesn't solve the problem just then you have the new yes and then you have like 24 boxes yeah and storage space is is a big problem you know people rent storage space and they have all the stuff for years boxes how many boxes do you have in storage Jim what I actually I used to have a whole thing I use I literally had a little space 20 years ago one of those little things full of boxes and then finally I realized this is insane and I actually over another weekend over a few weeks actually threw out a lot of crap and by the way I've told you this before saying the call yours were not sisters but brothers oh sorry my apologies those are the people who's the New York proceeding against tenants who had were hoarders was was named but by the way the other thing I'd like to say is that somebody who later in life has become less of a clutter surrounded person than I was I've said this to you in the air a million times there is very little as satisfying as throwing stuff out it is really the saddest fact remember and Shirley said she and her husband rented one of those huge things you put on your street what are they called where the bins not a bin but a huge like those big pods pods yeah yeah and filled it up with crap and now happy she sounded let's go to Vanessa and Truro one of my favorite places hi hi guys hi um hi this this topic was um meant for me I am um I cannot like the guy in self-bought and I cannot function if there's clutter around mostly because I'm working from home and every two seconds I'll get up and just go move something or remember something I needed to clean or or whatever so I'm constantly on it um and I've moved in my lifetime I mean maybe close to 40 times wait 40 yes what to escape the clutter uh yes in a way because I have to go through everything that I own every time I pack and unpack I mean not consciously but now you have me thinking I got it um so I you know even when I go to somebody's house like a family member or friend and you know I see a piece of garbage like maybe on top of their refrigerator I'm like well what's that therefore and you'll be like oh wait just haven't gotten around to getting rid of it yet and I'll just get up and take it out to the trash can I can't stand it I love that but I see you can come to my house any time you want that's good so do you feel this is like an affliction are you happy with a state of affairs you're in well I'm super ADD so I sort of really need to be on it and like for instance I gotta wash my dishes before I go to bed if I wake up with them in the morning you know I could just turn into a whole a whole um whatever you call it snowball effect you're a good one Vanessa that was great that was really great thank you for the call we appreciate it here's Dan from Dorchester every time you guys have this conversation like a home and clean up my closet and get rid of stuff I wish you had this conversation more often because then my house would be immaculate and here's Andrew who says I think it's I think it's Andrew my boyfriend of seven plus years is a stage four-quarter receipts figurines dishes cat litter everywhere we now live separately I'm not anxious to go back many conversations have been had everything he says has a special meaning to it meanwhile stick me in a bedroom with no furniture and I'd be in the verge of an orgasm so there you go that's a little strange my thing can I move yeah maybe yeah well you want to go take another call let's go to Rebecca and Back Bay hello Rebecca welcome to the show Jim Brody Marjorie Egan hi hello hello finally I get through great glad to talk to you what's up good good well my story about the most efficient uh an organized person is about a secretary I should say executive assistant um to the CEO at a firm that I used to work for and who shall remain nameless and um she was in an amazing person she was so organized at the end of the day her desk was always clear there's nothing on her desk and long story short um she retired a new executive assistant came in and looked in the closet and found that every night she put anything that was left on her desk and and there were like 15 years of things like uncashed checks oh my god tax returns I mean all kinds of stuff so perception is not reality it's a fabulous story Rebecca what would you think let me a similar story see what you think of this I used to have a friend who was a reporter in town and one day I had to go somewhere with a reporter excuse me I'm talking Rebecca you're marching and uh this person was writing her his or her piece for the day so I went to the newsroom where that person was working and there was a mountain of mail that had not been opened in years and I opened it there were checks for people who she had written about in her column it's terrible it's so terrible what would you think about that kind of person Rebecca okay it was bad it's hard for me to opine without more information well it's margarine that's all you need to know Rebecca thank you for that's a great story that was fabulous I can see that by the way just shove the crap in the closet and say you'll deal with it some other day yeah but that's all this can I mean when you open it you got to feel pretty bad don't you think well that is something's going on there don't you think I'd say so yeah listen to this it's amazing how we have a housing crisis and instead of building apartments we build storage units on prime property to store all our clutter we need to change you know what I also know I I like looking I like going to open houses and even though if I'm not looking to move anywhere do you notice there not enough closets in the world would you agree with that but I love closets which just store those boxes well not just the store those even if you want to do things neatly and not do like that woman did when she was throwing everything in closet do I think the world would be a better place with more closets than we currently have I would be embarrassed if anybody opened any of the closets in my house oh for example what's brought they're just chock full of stuff you do like that one does the things fall everything falls out that's nice good to admit it's very good yeah here's Dan and Randolph I was trying to declutter my bed while listening to the show today 42 partially red magazines dating back a year comprised just the beginning says Dan and Randolph it is really would you say the vast majority how would you rate the percentage of people with whom you were fairly close in your life in terms of pro I don't mean pro clutter but cluttered versus clutter free um you know it's interesting in my family my sister's pretty neat she is yeah she doesn't see dust and dirt but she's very neat and my mother was you know bad oh terrible bad really yeah I didn't know that okay oh yes she's terrible let's go to blame her of course Megan bill Ricker your next on Boston public radio hi Meg welcome hi thanks thank you yes I'm a I'm a professional organizer and I help people organize their clutter okay she'll leave your name at the end of the show here I'd be happy to I'm self-employed so I'm looking for work um but just like one really helpful tip that what I have found even works for myself and people is set an alarm on your phone or whatever for 20 minutes and like turn off your ringer ignore everything else most people can wrap their mind around just 20 minutes to focus on one area and spend that 20 minutes very focused just say I'm going to look at this like this one countertop or this one closet or whatever it is this one area of the garage and for 20 minutes just dive into that one spot and you can save yourself when the time's up I can be done that's a great idea yeah that's a great idea a lot of times when the 20 minutes is up you're on such a role that you keep going well if you can get yourself to do it just for 20 minutes then you make progress incremental progress well I think you answer my question because it doesn't seem to be that helpful to hire you if you do everything so I assume part of your stick is you help and then you train is that like you just mentioned a minute ago yes um yeah it's people have got to keep going because once you set up the systems too once you get things organized you need to maintain them and that's the hard part I've had people hire me like annually like they I get all straightened up and then a year later it's a wreck again like come back but you've got to be able to maintain it once you've got it all organized is this your song is this what you do for a living it is do you have a website I have a I have a business Facebook page well you're if you feel free to give it you sound like you're a pretty responsible person go ahead tell us what the Facebook page is um it's staging by Meg staging by Meg I I do a staging for the real estate market as well so staging and organizing but the Facebook page is staging by Meg Meiji we appreciate Meg Marjorie wrote it down thanks Meg thank you for your help by the thing away Paul and Mr uses the quote if a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind what is an empty desk a sign of it's pretty good yeah didn't you feel on I mean by the way this guy was a nice guy our firm boss who was retired like 45 or whatever he was didn't you feel weird when you looked at there is a middle ground don't you think I don't think no clutter is healthy either like he had nothing we're not exaggerating other than a picture or two as you said of his family or him playing golf or something there was not one thing on any counter in his whole office didn't you feel it was weird well it made me feel very inadequate you know what I mean when I see people and we all know them especially when we used to be in the newsroom we see our friends it was one one buddy of ours remember he had like probably three feet of stuff from his desk you know papers and but he was a really competent really smart guy so what was the downside that he that's how he lived he lived in total disorganization and clutter I that would drive me crazy but a lot of people are talking about by the way they used to finish that story our boss our former boss thought he had quit months before he was actually just sitting in his desk and she that's a truth almost a true story she is not seen for months got that's right but lots of people are saying that they take comfort and clutter and they're not necessarily quarters well they're not necessarily quarters but they like they feel that if they go into it sometimes if you go to one apartment it's really clean and there's nothing there it makes you feel a little funny well that's why I was saying about our former boss's office I was uncomfortable and that kind of thing well I don't know what a little bit of clutter means isn't that in the eye of the holder you had mushrooms growing in the trunk of your car I actually my old car I did have mushrooms let's go to uh I did I did the Tesla alas now look it's so good either actually Tesla law I bought a monthly car wash ticket so stop it's the inside of the car jim it's the inside of the car yeah we don't clean that let's go to rosin hamilton your next on boston public radio what's your deal hello hi that's actually Ruth oh sorry Ruth my apologies that's okay i'm a baby boomer and I have a friend who was a hospital chaplain for many years and one of the things that she would talk about when a family experienced the death was that that was bad enough but then they would be faced with a household full of stuff yeah and it was a huge burden to the family and I'm shouting out to booms everywhere time to do Swedish death cleaning and that's what I've been engaged in for like three years now and I just want to reduce the pile of stuff and we've accumulated a lot in 40 years for my kids who live out of state would have to take time off to off of work to come and do this I want to make it as easy for them as possible by the way I'm really glad you know what's it called Swedish death cleaning Swedish death cleaning wow it's not beat that way I don't describe it yeah but I mean rose thank you what's up I'm sorry wait can I just tell you what my son gave me for mother's day of course she leaned out my attic wow wow what a nice guy I don't want anybody touching my stuff rose thank you for the call don't you know about that having you read stories in the past about children grown children of dead people who feel horrible because they don't want to throw anything away from their dead parent so they soon to be dead parent I'm not saying Ruth is about to be dead but an older parent should actually take care of their own stuff as a courtesy to their child I think one of the textures it's a long text and running off the page but part of it says I think my tendency toward untidiness has to do with time management challenges as I often feel pressed for time and late for my next activity this results in my justification for leaving a mess that's a good one yeah that goes to you know staging by Meg suggested that you have a timer 20 minutes of cleaning up and then you do it for 20 minutes yeah and I think I think she's right if you start for 20 minutes and you keep going I mean I love to start I like to clean it makes me feel better but I just don't do it enough would you agree that during the show you were the single messiest cultural host in the United States of America without a close second would you agree nups I don't mean that critically I don't think I'm messy I have a lot of papers I've a lot of papers what is that and they're all in the floor and you can't I was just gonna say they're on the floor you can't find anything you're spilling coffee on the computer exact no exactly exactly that's not a criticism but you're rather messy no I well I'm I'm disorganized I don't think I'm messy no I don't like dirt I don't like dirt no I understand my refrigerator I don't think dirt on the paper that you're reading no it's organization I mean I have piles of papers is what I have I'm overwhelmed by papers yeah I'm drowning in babies Jim I can't find that can you read it I can't find that can you call it for the sound let's go to poem was through your next on Boston public radio hey Paul how are you uh-huh Marjorie creative mind creative minds are really tidy Marjorie wrote that herself thank you go ahead what's up Paul okay thank Marjorie and Jim it's nice to talk to you again too I've I've kind of been all over the place with this after listening to but Jim you're right about productivity you know this and um you know a couple things one is if you hire a cleaner you end up cleaning for the reduces your clutter totally correct that's right totally right next if it takes longer to put it off than it does to do it just do it that's a good one your clutch um and uh you know with George Carlin quote why is it that all like your your crap is stuff and everybody else's stuff it's crap that's a good one too we missed that's a good one too thank you for the call oh I our staff is reminding us that the quote about the clutter mind and the cluttered desk is was supposedly from uh Einstein whatever happened to him well he's no longer he's no longer with us uh Jim oh enlisted this one this is Tory North Albero I told my husband never buy a three inch paintbrush again in his life I cleaned out the paint shelf and found 19 brand new three inch paintbrushes really yeah that's a sad story isn't it okay so what's the takeaway is Jared's going to be in a second what's the takeaway takeaway is that I think most of us unless we have hoarding tendencies and that may be a psychological thing feel much better in a in a neat calm serene environment okay so Jared has walked in I'd like to say the following a margarine is regularly invited to events at at Jared's house I'm never invited and I know I just chose the set up I'm just setting this up and Marjorie will often come back and say things like oh my god his place is so beautiful it's gorgeous I say I would know and then she says it's so neat he takes what you are a neat Nick is that a word still those neat they want to know you are a neat Nick I'm totally like an anal anal yeah but it was years ago okay anally anally neat Nick is that is that a fair statement that is a fair statement okay only at home but interestingly at work what's your desk like upstairs it's a mess oh yeah so what's out of it I'm so mess I guess I need to have that space where I can do that I'm so messy that I actually had to request from the culture show team that we print our scripts and blue paper because I go far so I can find them when I get lost in my knowledge pop mountains of paper okay but doesn't that meet Miss Jared I feel so sued and calming in your apartment I love it I know when I come home every day and I find you there I kind of figure that was the reason that you were there right that's right as opposed to Jim's car okay okay and the spell of sour milk and there was sour milk for my kids who were now 30 and 32 were fine Jim I'm sorry because they'd spill a milk bottle in the car and you didn't clean up rather oh differ well that was eight cars ago thank you what are you doing on the culture show there mr. neat Nick Bowen well actually there's a good segue because we have Zadie Smith on the show talking about her new novel the fraud but Zadie Smith has said that she has a messy chaotic mind which clearly makes for a very good novelist yeah I was just going to say she's not doing badly no okay what else yeah and then we're talking about the I can't believe it's been 40 years now of the Boston Film Festival which is about to kick off we'll talk about the world premieres heading our way and the stars headed our way and then the gun violence memorial project which has been traveling the country and it's exceedingly well done we'll talk about this project it's not like any other memorial that you might encounter and it's incredibly personal fabulous thank you we'll be listening Jared Bowen culture thank you Jared oh Marjorie I'm free most weekends for the next couple of months if you're doing anything over there thank you to my house again okay see you later bye thank you very much Jared Bowen and thank you very much it's great to have you back Marjorie even though oh your fill-ins sue and uh Charlie we're fabulous it's very nice I'll be back I heard part of the show last week when I wasn't feeling so well so I'm very glad I'm back okay we're glad you're back too thank you very much for listening to another edition of Boston Public Radio you can keep up with this 24/7 way of our podcast or check check out our tick-tock pages which in 2025 we'll have some additions to the Boston Boston Public Radio of course turn tomorrow turn tomorrow turn tomorrow turn general Andrea Campbell for a September's edition of Ask the A.G. from 11 to 12 plus our sports authority trying to casey CNN's John King and meeting Maven Sue O'Connell we want to thank our crew Zoe Matthews, Aidan Connolly, Nicole Garcia, Hannah Laws, our engineer is John Nicole Parker our executive producer is Jane Bologna stay tuned to the culture show you just heard a preview with Jared Bowen's baby Smith good for him she's a wonderful novelist it starts right after the two o'clock news here on 89/7 GBH and as I said we're going to be at the Boston Public Library tomorrow with A.G. Andrea Campbell from 11 and noon thanks Jim that's it okay well I'm you're supposed to say I'm Marjorie I'm Marjorie Eagan you forgot to say I did I did I'm Jim Brody we'll see you tomorrow at the library yes we will thanks for being here bye bye so you you [BLANK_AUDIO] [BLANK_AUDIO] [BLANK_AUDIO] [BLANK_AUDIO]