Talkin' Ball with Pat Leonard

Why is Christian McCaffrey flying to Germany?! Insider NFL injury analysis with Dr. David Chao

Broadcast on:: 26 Sep 2024
Audio Format:: other

Dr. David Chao, the "Pro Football Doc" of @SICscore, joins New York Daily News NFL columnist Pat Leonard on Talkin' Ball @Bleav Network to provide insight on some of the biggest injuries in football. Chao dishes on Justin Herbert's foot, Christian McCaffrey's Germany trip, Tua Tagovailoa's concussion, Daniel Jones' knee, Graham Gano's absence, the Philadelphia Eagles' beat-up roster and much more. This is essential information for fans, bettors and fantasy football players alike. SUBSCRIBE to the @PLonNFL YouTube page to get the latest Giants updates and news delivered directly to you, and to participate in regular LIVE Q&A chats with Pat. Purchase a Super Chat or Super Sticker to have your comments elevated to the top of the feed and have Pat answer your question FIRST! Watch the full video of this @Bleav podcast on Pat's YouTube Channel. Find Pat also on 'X' (@PLeonardNYDN), Instagram (@PLonNFL) & TikTok (@PLonNFL). Talkin' Ball with Pat Leonard is brought to you by MyBookie. It’s MyBookie’s 10th year anniversary, and they’re rolling out the red carpet for bettors, including Risk-Free Thursdays and weekly no-sweat bets all season long. Use the promo code 'PATSPICKS' here to get your first deposit of $50 or more matched 100% up to $1,000 plus a $10 casino chip. Make your Football season a winning season with MyBookie! Bet Anything, Anytime, Anywhere. Talkin' Ball with Pat Leonard is also sponsored by @BoomChaga and @Estate98Coffee. BOOM Chaga Mushroom SuperDrink is a natural extract loaded with anti-inflammatory, immune-boosting antioxidants and heart-healthy compounds. Go to BoomChaga.com and use the code TALKINBALL25 to get a 25% discount on your first Subscribe and Save Order. Estate98 is an all-natural, specialty coffee with no sugar that is convenient for the on-the-go coffee drinker. Go to estate98.com/talkinball to get a special buy one, get one free deal.

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Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify.com/Westwood1. All lowercase. Go to Shopify.com/Westwood1 now to grow your business. No matter what stage you're in, Shopify.com/Westwood1. Welcome to another episode of Talkin' Ball with Pat Leonard. We have a special guest today, Dr. David Chow, longtime NFL head team doctor, and now an injury specialist across several professional sports. He provides live updates on injuries during these NFL Sundays, an essential part of how to get information for your fantasy team, and also cheering on your favorite players and teams. So we're going to dive into some of the top injuries around the league. We'll talk Giants. We'll talk Chargers. We'll talk San Francisco 49ers, Philadelphia Eagles, and more to get our finger on the pulse of what to expect from your top favorite players who are battling injuries. When are they going to return? And what exactly are they dealing with going inside the mind of someone who has been on the field and on the sideline, making these key decisions for players and teams? Remember, we are sponsored here on Talkin' Ball with Pat Leonard by My Bookie, and this information from Dr. Chow is going to help inform the bets that you make on over's, under's, favorites, underdogs, whatever you like to play. Prop bets for My Bookie, and it's 10th year anniversary. It is rolling out the red carpet for bettors. Starts with risk-free Thursdays and goes from there, has a new loyalty rewards program, My Bookie Plus, and we have a special promo code here for you on Talkin' Ball. Click on the link in any of my social media profiles and bios, and use the promo code, Pat's Picks, and you will get a 100% match of your first deposit of a minimum $50, all the way up to $1,000 plus a $10 casino chip. Make your football season a winning season with My Bookie bet anything, anytime, anywhere. 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Start feeling the difference today at BoomChaga.com, and also brought to you here on Talkin' Ball with Pat Leonard by Estate98 Coffee, an all-natural specialty coffee with no sugar, convenient for on-the-go coffee drinkers. It takes me less than 10 seconds to make a delicious Estate98 iced coffee and only a minute more to make a hot coffee or latte from this all natural concentrate. Go to estate98.com/talkinball to get a special buy one, get one free deal. And now to our interview with Dr. David Chow, the pro football doc himself. All right, a very special guest today on Talkin' Ball with Pat Leonard. It is Dr. David Chow. You know him and follow him as pro football doc. 17 plus years as a head NFL team doctor also has a website. You have to check it out. You have to subscribe over there. Sports Injury Central, he provides live injury analysis for several pro sports leagues and is the official injury expert at SiriusXM and also Fox Sports Radio. Dr. Chow, thanks so much for being here on Talkin' Ball. Oh, thank you so much. And most importantly, a friend of Pat Leonard, no need for a little while. So thanks for joining me on. Right, yeah, friend of the show, friend of the program, friend of the Daily News. I wanted to start by asking you, before we get into some player injuries, I'm really intrigued by this SIC picks subscription service you have. It's basically all of your injury data. It seems like kind of compiled with NFL information to provide like fantasy football players with an edge. If it's injury news or cheat sheets, seems really interesting to me. Like as a fantasy footballer myself, I would subscribe to this. Well, there's a couple different levels of it. And really the premise is you are a great injury report. You report on injuries. We don't actually report on injuries. We analyze injuries. Big difference. For example, in the Monday night game, right tackle for the Tourist Patel attendant for the Bengals Trent Brown. By video, it looked like a clear right Patel attendant tear. But that's not reporting. That's analysis. You guys then confirm the report. So what's unique about it is we analyze situations as opposed to going by reports. And the reports are largely from coaches, the team or agents. And we all know coach speak exists. And I'm sure you'll bring up examples even with the Giants and otherwise. And to be clear, I'm not hating and it's Sports Injury Central SIC Score.com. We're not hating on any coaches that may do coach speak. It's part of the job. Look, when I was involved in the NFL with the Chargers, I didn't have any coach speak because I didn't speak to the media. But there was some involvement behind the scenes in coach speak. So what we try and do is share insider knowledge of how the league works and medical works, not insider information. Now, as far as fantasy and gambling goes, look, I'm not a fantasy expert who to draft is that the other I don't study. I play in a couple of fantasy at least Scott Fishbowl, honored to play in that. But I'm not a fantasy expert. I'm an injury expert. So don't ask me the strategy here or the other. But I can say this running back is not 100%. Or this running back is going up against a defense that's not 100%. This running back has an offensive line that's injured. And you as a casual fantasy player might not know that. So if you're deciding between two wide receivers or two running backs or two quarterbacks, maybe you want to know the health of the offensive line. And so we actually have a fantasy calculator where we say projected points, and you know, fan dual or drafting salary. And then we throw in the injury side, the health of the defense, the offensive line, the associated players, and then give a modified projection number. And then we do six scores for every individual player, but teams, not only teams, but the offense of the giants, the run offense of the giants versus the run defense of the giants or the opponent, right, or the pass offense. And we actually have Norv Turner, who's an investor and helps us calculate some of the help calculate some of the formulas of how much the right guard means. And then wow, that's really interesting. Who wins against replacement? For example, we don't penalize the Steelers as heavily for having quote Justin Fields as the backup QB2 as we do the Miami Dolphins with their backup. And we may get to that there might be on QB4, but that's a whole different story there. So that's kind of what we do. And there's a for people who just want the picks, you know, we're honored that Billy Walters has cited us and sort of endorsed us, but people who want just the picks sign it for the picks and we hit over 55% over four years kind of thing. You know, it's never you can't ever be for sure, right? But if we're using the injury algorithm, and then there's the data side where you can look at fantasy and what have you, but really what it's down to is I, for example, last week, we, the algorithm, we did not pick even though Seattle was significantly healthier than the Dolphins. And we shouldn't have taken Seattle. They crashed, right? We didn't, because that's a known injury based at quarterback where the line has already moved. Now, Monday night football, we were strong on Washington, not because we thought Jaden Daniels would have a, you know, tremendous game. We're not going to, you know, get over our skis there, but because the Bengals were injured on defense, especially along their defensive line. And whether they can get their run game going or whether they have to stack the box to stop the run game, that opens up a lot of other things. Now, we didn't take money line Washington commanders. We were advising, take the seven and a half at seven points there. So that's an unseen injury. So that's what we go off of the line arbitrage of unseen injuries. And over time, you know, I think it can be something that not everyone considers. No, it's so valuable and unique. And I'm going to have to compare my Pat's picks that I do with my bookie, our sponsor here with the SIC picks, because you're rolling so far. It looks like I got to catch up. But my best bet this week, Dr. Chow, is based in part on the information I've seen you put out about this player. And it is right now the chiefs at my bookie are minus eight against the Chargers. And I love the chiefs really at no matter what number, because I've heard you say you don't think Justin Herbert is going to play in this game. But I wanted to ask you too, not just about this game, but also long term for him. This is a guy who was diagnosed with a plan or fashion injury in his right foot in early August during training camp. Now he has a high ankle sprain to his right ankle. I want to know from your vantage point, what do you see for both his outlook for this week and long term as the Chargers quarterback? Yeah, to make it clear for your audience, like I used to work with the Chargers when they were in San Diego. I know the staff on the Chargers, the head athletic trainer is excellent, we're social friends. But I promise you, I have not called him to ask for information, and he would not tell me because of HIPAA. Okay, so we work on insider knowledge, not insider information. I like to speak in good news. The good news for Justin Herbert is the high ankle sprain really doesn't have anything to do with the planar fasciitis. It's the same foot. Maybe he was a quarter step slow and got the high ankle. Okay, you can, you know, you know, postulate on that. But directly, there are different parts of the foot ankle. Number one, number two is this now potential period of rest on the high ankle can only help any residual effect of the planar fasciitis. So I always like to talk in the positive. Let me give you a snippet into my mind. Last week, we were very solid saying Justin Herbert will play even though he has a high ankle and everyone's like, high ankle, you can't play through a high ankle. And we cited examples in Patrick Mahomes two years ago, Jacksonville high ankle, finished the game, won the Super Bowl against the Eagles on a mild high ankle sprain, different player, different situation. But meanwhile, look, not all high ankles are the same, but not all players are the same in terms of positions or other way. We're very confident that Justin Herbert would play in the game against the Steelers. Once he left, and we looked at it, and once we took Jim Harbaugh's comments, who I love, I mean, I know Jim Harbaugh really well, and I couldn't go on for an hour about Jim Harbaugh stories, the quirkiness, the realness, the authenticity, loved Jim Harbaugh. But he said it. Once Justin Herbert was limping, I decided we need to pull him. That was our deal. He didn't get hurt worse. It just, you know, started to get more sore. And he put in who? Taylor Heineke, not Easton stick, even though Heineke got there only a few weeks ago, three, four weeks ago. Yeah. And finished the game. So going forward, this is like the conversation that they might have in the building. And like I said, I've not talked to anyone in the building, and they wouldn't tell me. Okay. But you understand, first of all, the chargers are, they may have lost, they may lose five first round draft picks from the Steelers game, which is unprecedented. Which team actually still has five first round draft picks, right? So first one is Derwin James. I mean, suspension, he's out for a game. Okay. That play word smithing a little bit. Joey Bosa back now hip may not play. Joe Alt left the right tackle isn't going to play with his MCL. Rishan Slater is likely not to play with his peck. It's very hard to play off offensive line with a peck. And now I'm saying Justin Herbert is not likely to play. So Pat, before you say, wait, wait a minute, you just said it didn't get any worse. And last week, he said he's playing now, why is he not playing? Because this is how teams and coaches think. First of all, is there any way Justin Herbert will be 100% this week against the Chiefs? Zero. No, and fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Not that Justin Herbert is fooling anybody, but they tried to play him and he didn't finish a game. So are you better off just starting the game with Taylor had Nikki in a run. Unfirst offense that the charges happen with Jim Harbaugh with both your tackles down. Do you really want to put Justin Herbert out there with both your tackles down? And guess what? I get it. It's the Chiefs. You want to win this game? You win this game, you actually vault into first place. You're two and one, the Chiefs are three and oh, head to head is first, but it's still early. You know, they're going to play the long game and next week is the by by resting Justin Herbert and taking the by. He will be close to 100% and be the starter in week six, but with the experience of Taylor, honey, key, I believe Jim will trust him and give him the start. To be fair, I am positive they've had these conversations in the building just because they're quality staff and a quality team. They haven't told me, but I'm also positive they probably haven't made the final decision yet, right? They're going to still look at how Justin Herbert goes and whatever, but looking ahead in the crystal ball, I think the charges are going to miss five first round starters, first round draft picks, including Justin Herbert this week. If it were the talks of different story, maybe, you know, but you know, they got to buy. I get it's the Chiefs, but this hopefully is a good thing for your listeners to see how we're different. Look, we think we spawned a whole industry of fantasy doctors and and doctors on Twitter and you know, therapists, and I don't think it's a bad thing. Look, if electric vehicles were if Tesla was the only electric vehicle on the marketplace, that means the electric vehicle marketplace doesn't work, right? Every car company has one and that's okay. You just have to concentrate on being the best and we have an unfair advantage of having worked on the other side. Not only treated these athletes, done these surgeries, but also participated in the decision making of return to play. So that sort of gives us the unfair advantage of looking at some of these things. And yes, it's not reporting fact that Taylor Heineke is the starter starter. It's our analysis that he will be. Yeah. As they say, imitation is the highest form of flattery. So kudos to you. Yeah. And we welcome anyone, you know, I mean, it's all good. Yeah. And then that five first round pick stat is a great stat. I think that's a really good point and great analysis there, that whole situation. My two cents too would be, and I know you'd like to speak in the positives, but Easton Sticks lack of performance really helped get the last coach fired. So I do also think it's, it's just incumbent on Jin Harbaugh, maybe to just try something else because he's seen the tape. Well, to be fair, everyone loves Easton Stick. I don't know him personally. When he got the chance to start last year, Phillip Rivers was the first one to text me. We're excited. My guy stick is going to play, you know, kind of thing. So I mean, he's a well-liked guy. I can't speak to his ability. And but part of it is, you know how this works, Pat, too. Easton Stick, no offense to him, was an inherited guy for Jim Harbaugh, right? I mean, Taylor Heineke is a broad-end guy for Jim Harbaugh. And we all know the differences that potentially can make differences of opinions and ability and otherwise. No doubt. All right. So staying on the West Coast, this is, this has been a big one since the start of the season right off the jump. Christian McCaffrey with this Achilles tendonitis, now apparently flying to Germany to get seen by a specialist. He's on injured reserve already. But I got to be honest, Dr. Chow. I don't know exactly what Achilles tendonitis means for the long term, but I know it doesn't sound good to me, the layperson with no medical degree. So could you just kind of clarify or contextualize what this means for McCaffrey? Well, first of all, let me tell you a funny story. In my one draft for fantasy that I do, Scott Fishbowl 14, I had the third pick in the draft and I don't plan strategy. But basically, it was obvious to me that Christian McCaffrey fell to me and I didn't have a problem taking him. And so I am one who wants him back as soon as possible. Okay, that's number one. Number two, I saw the speculation. I mean, poor guy, he got spotted in airport flying to Germany or whatever it was. Look, the initial Twitter is funny. No, he's not going to Oktoberfest. And I don't know if you've ever been to Oktoberfest. But Oktoberfest is held in September. It's a celebration of October. It's not actually in October. So he is there, if he's still there, for Oktoberfest. And who would blame it if he raised a sign or two? But the bottom line is, why is he going there? It's not so much that there is an Achilles specialist there that's so special. He's going there. Once again, this is putting pieces together. I have not talked to CMC or his agent. I've not talked to Ed, his dad, who I'm very glad to meet at the Super Bowl. Easy Ed. Ed's great, but lots of Ed stories too. And the other McCaffrey ain't too bad either. He got to touch down, right? Anyways, why Germany? In the United States, there are certain treatments that are illegal and illegal for the FDA. You hear about players over the summer and spring going to South America or Costa Rica for stem cell treatments. Some of those stem cell treatments are not legal in the United States. The United States has a fairly strict policy. Some stem cells are. Platelet-rich plasma is legal in the United States. I do it all the time. But there is a special modification to the blood that is allowed in other countries like Germany. And Germany is not the only place that allows it that's not allowed in the U.S. Athletes like Kobe have flown to Germany because Germany as a country kind of pioneered some of that. And so other countries, yes, you could get it. He could have gone to Tijuana across the border and gotten the same treatment. But he's choosing to fly there. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance, fiscally responsible, financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to progressive and save hundreds. Because Progressive offers discounts for pain and full, owning a home, and more. Plus, you can count on their great customer service to help you when you need it. So your dollar goes a long way. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save on car insurance. Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for career day and said he was a big row as man. Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend. My friend's still laughing me to this day. Not everyone gets B2B. But with LinkedIn, you'll be able to reach people who do. Get a $100 credit on your next ad campaign. Go to LinkedIn.com/results to claim your credit. That's LinkedIn.com/results. Terms and conditions apply. LinkedIn, the place to be to be. Because that's where more of the expertise is. There's not so much of Achilles' expertise. But doing this modified growth factor, platelet-rich plasma treatment, like Coby got back in my day. And you have to give CMC credit for wanting to do this. I would assume that he's doing this on his own. Not against team advice, but on his own and on his own dime, probably. Certainly he's taking his own time to fly there. He didn't fly on an owner's plane to Germany. I mean, he flew commercial. That's where he was spotted, right? So you got to give him credit that he's trying to do the best to get better himself. And I don't see a team paying for a treatment that isn't legal in the U.S. It's just an interesting conundrum, right? Even though it's just the rules that we have, and I'm not commenting on the rules. I'm just saying that this is why he's there. Now the bad news. Well, how do we get here? First of all, when I drafted him, I wasn't worried about the calf. I thought the calf had plenty of time to get better. He had a calf injury last year and played through. But week one, it showed up as calf and Achilles. This travel is the Achilles 10 to 9. It's not the calf. The calf you can make worse, it can linger. But the Achilles tendon, the Achilles tendon gives you a higher chance of rupture. And if you get an Achilles tendon rupture, it is surgery and season. Now, I'm not saying you see him see played with it. He'd have a 50-50 chance of rupturing his Achilles. I'm not saying that. Look, if your normal chance of rupture of Achilles is, and I'm making up the number here, is low like 0.01% per every time you take the field. If his chance is now 1% every time he takes the field, it's a 100-fold increase. And if you're the 49ers brass, you're trying to win the Super Bowl and play the long game. You're trying to make sure you got CMC for December and January and February. You're okay missing him, especially with Jordan Mason in September. But here's what this means. I've been hinting at it all along with Achilles tendonitis. It's not necessarily magically healed in four weeks. And now with this injection, he's trying to increase the speed of healing. But once you get this injection, the typical is it takes four to six weeks to turn the corner. So if he's two weeks in, and now you're four to six weeks, he's not returning as soon as he's eligible off IR. And that's not a bad thing. They want to be safe, but I'm just telling fans that fans say, "Look, in the Scott Fish Bowl, there are no trades. Otherwise, I might have tried to trade CMC to somebody who didn't realize how long term this might be." But there's no trade that's a great explanation, though, because what you're saying is for the long term, like for a Super Bowl contender, if this procedure that he's getting the treatment to his blood, if it is effective for what he's looking to have it do for him for that Achilles, you're looking at, yes, a longer timeline than I deal to have him back on the field. But there's a chance that by midseason or late season that this type of treatment he's getting, or this is what he's looking for, at least, is that it can happen? He came back for the 49ers. If he came back at week nine, I wouldn't take it. I'd take it for my fantasy team. Look, I love John Lynch. He's a very smart guy, but John Lynch are killing me. You know, he's around to, I mean, love John Lynch, but yeah, they're making the right decision there. And you know, look, so the target now for is no longer October. It's hopefully November sometime, but certainly December. Yeah, okay. That's really good insight. Fantasy players, especially listen up. So if you can trade them now, yeah, or you'll get to unleash him, you know, in the playoffs of your fantasy player. Yeah, right, right. Find some waiver claims first. Moving to it, you know, really the highest profile, one most serious one so far this year, to a talk about Loa, the Miami Dolphins quarterback. Curious, Dr. Chow, I know concussions are everyone is different, and I know that unless you're, if you're not treating a patient directly in something like this, it is hard to say. But I would say the average person looks at how many he's had, how serious and scary they've looked on the field. And of course, I'm sure you saw the initial conversation was, this guy should never play football again, right? For the average person sitting on their couch, or even somebody like me who was just knows a lot of football players, knows what these head injuries and concussions do to you. And frankly, from my vantage point, Roger Goodell and the NFL can't love the, the image of to a talk about Loa fencing on the field, at least once per season. But my question to you is, as a team, as a former longtime team doctor, would you advise a player, would you ever advise a player like to, I'm not saying you are advising to it right now, but I'm saying, would you ever advise a player in this type of situation? Like, you know, you should, you should not play football anymore. Or like right now, we hear about him seeing outside neurologists, he's traveling with the team, the arrows pointing up. Where do you land on kind of like how, how you would handle that from a team doctor perspective? Well, first of all, to answer the question, this is saying I'm fair, you've heard of the NFL, never too high, never too low, right? I mean, so is he immediately done and should retire? Maybe not, but is it just go back and play? Yeah, not, right? I mean, you got to let it all sort out a little bit. And for clarity here, for your followers, and I hope I'm not too long winded here, I'm an orthopedic surgeon and head team physician. So what the heck is an orthopedic surgeon doing, even commenting on head injuries? I'll tell you, because I was a head team physician, and the whole concussion thing came up when I was a head team physician, I went to the meetings that the NFL had mandatory, I was the team's representative with the head athletic trainer, the meetings in Washington with the military, the meetings at the combine. So I was sort of the head coach of medical, I may have not called the special team's coverage or play, but I'm in charge of it. So therefore, I never actually examined a player for head injury in the NFL. I observed exams and they reported to me and I interpreted it. So I know all about the process and so forth, but that's the disclosure. No, I'm not a neurologist, okay? But here's what I would say for fans in the general public. Number one, first of all, concussions are a big deal to me. I was there back in the day when Stan Humphries took his final play in the NFL and Cincinnati. I was an assistant at the time and I was there, okay? I've had five friends, not all football players, five professional athlete friends in different disciplines take their own life. And yes, CTE has been involved in a good number of them. So I take this very near and dear to my heart. First statement I would get out there. If Tua asked me what's the best thing to do for my head and brain short and long term? Quit playing the collision sport of football, period end of story. However, you could also say that for his 52 teammates. If they ask the question, I've never had a concussion, but what's best for me in my head in the long term, subconclusive blows, quit playing the collision sport of football. Now, I'm not trying to be Kurt with that. I've been asked many times by NFL players, Doc, what's the best thing to do for my knee? Lose 100 pounds of quit playing football? I'm not doing that. And so what are you going to do and what's the next thing, et cetera? So there's that. But to go to the next level, what worries people is what the number of concussions, probably five in the last five years, four documented in 2022 and two documented, both say three, whatever the controversy, five and five years. The other one is the posturing. So five and five years, I get it, it's a concern. But Mitch Morris, center for the bills that now Jaguars has had six documented concussions in his NFL career. Pat Fryer-Muth, who took the hit from Derwin James that got him suspended for a game, has had three in his short career. One concussion can be too many. And there's no question a fifth concussion is career threatening. Is it absolutely career ending? It depends. Let me say something else. The posturing that we see does looks bad, is incredibly scary, but does not indicate permanent damage to his brain and is not necessarily directly linked to CTE. Every hit, every sub-concussive hit can potentially increase your chance to CTE. So I'm not denying that. But you can't say this guy fenced and he should never play again. This guy didn't fence and he should play again. It's not that simple. It's all about symptoms and how quickly you recover. No two concussions are the same. Good early signs for Tua. He was allowed to get with the team early. He was allowed to fly with the team. As you know, Pat, a lot of teams don't allow injured reserve players to fly. And they're certainly to travel to individual team policy. He's the quarterback he wanted to be there, so they brought him to Seattle. But they're not letting someone fly who hasn't fully recovered, at least mental wits about him and thinking clearly and no symptoms. And he's also not setting up neurology visits if he has symptoms. You know this, Pat, with the Giants. Nobody sends a player over to the independent neuro on Wednesday to get cleared. You send him over when you're sure and they have no symptoms because if they have symptoms at all, they're not getting cleared, right? Right. So saying there's neuro here. So the fact that he traveled to Seattle, great point there, doctor, by the way, great point. He's visits indicates that he probably is symptom free. Thank God. Now, what are the neurologists going to say? I don't know. They're going to do a full evaluation. He's going to see multiple because there's no way the league or the dolphins are going to let him back in. Now, part of what we do at Sports Injury Central, we've already said, going into this year and last year, we downgraded to a as a fantasy pick. Now, last year, you'd hate us because he did it very well. But why did we downgrade him? Yeah, he did do Jutsu training. That's all good. But you know, you can't prevent concussions like that. And he did not get one last year. But we knew very well last year and this year and going forward in his career. The next concussion is not a one week absence. Most concussions in the NFL, if it's your first, it's almost 50-50, depending on when you clear symptoms that you can play the next week. To his next concussion, his now fifth or fourth, however, you count it, was not going to be one week, especially when he's a quarterback, especially when he's fancying the special that the quick rule out, it was going to always be minimum one month. So that's why we sort of always downgraded to his availability going forward because of this history. Now, if he returns to play and plays next year, the rest of this year with no problems, plays next year with no problems, and in 2026 gets a concussion, he's once again out a month or six weeks or the rest of the season or whatever, people are trying to be careful for him. He's indicated he wants to return to play. I hope that he is given the option to return to play and that would mean he's got a quote pseudo clean bill of health. Of course, he's got all the history still and then you can get into should you play and generational money and what's right in whatever. But I really hope that he's allowed to return to play. I'm not lobbying for him to return to play. I'm just saying I hope he's allowed to and that's the same thing I said about Damar Hamlin. We expect Damar Hamlin to be allowed to return to play football after his catastrophic event and whether he does or not was his choice and obviously he got a big pick this week, his first one and second year back, the whole deal. But he was given the choice. I'm for giving to that to hopefully we'll have the choice. What choice meaning his brain is, quote, healthy enough to pass multiple neurologist recommendations. But hopefully I've not too long winded on that. That's a complicated discussion and one that I've had with teams, with players and so forth. No, that's a fascinating breakdown and it's a complicated topic. It deserves an in-depth answer. And yeah, it's so interesting to me, Dr. Chow. The moment that sticks out so far in the NFL season, which is not something the league or football wants, is to a talk of Ayloa lowering his head. This is a guy whose career is being threatened by concussions, lowering his head into a player who died on the field and was resuscitated and saved and is now playing for one of the better teams in the NFL. It's like great. It's a tremendous story. Do more Hamlin than that happened. I was in such shock. I was like, "I don't want to be an ambulance chaser. I don't even want to talk about this issue." And I was emotional. But then I talked to my staff and I said, "If I don't speak on this now, then who will?" And so we said that night, I mean, if you go back and find the ex-live thing, I mean, I was on the verge of tears, just emotional. I didn't know to Mar Hamlin, but I've known kids like him. And look, my number one takeaway that day immediately was, I hope to God that they resume this game. And let me finish. Because I don't see how they can resume that game without knowing in the background that kid was going to be okay. Right. You can't uncease. It would be hard to indicate they knew he was okay. Uncee CPR. Someone pumping on your friend's chest, your teammate's chest. You can't unsee that. And that's why it made sense the game was canceled because they didn't know at the time. But that's why I hope the game, you know, and then I talked about the medical process. So it was interesting there. But in Toa's defense, for all the times that we hate on players, you didn't take a hit, you didn't go. Look, there's no magic yellow line on the field. That was in the middle of the field. There was no five or 10 yard marker. And the second you start to slide, you're marked down. If he started to slide before the contact, he might have been a quarter yard short of the first down. And he's not looking over at the side to nose. And he's not trying to take the hit. I mean, in retrospect, maybe he should have gone as a little diagonal and still gotten the first down and slid. And you know, who knows? But the bottom line is, it's the game of football. And to say, Toa, you're being silly. You didn't slide. He's trying to win for his team. It was a red zone situation this close to a first down. Yes, in retrospect, because he went forward, he got it by two yards. But we all know if you slide, you probably cost yourself two yards, right? That's true. As Bill Belichick came in, how do you know where that exact line is as you're running for your life kind of thing? As as Bill Belichick famously said, when Rob Gronkowski, I believe broke his arm or his wrist blocking on a field goal or extra point. He was criticized for using him there. And Belichick said, Well, you let me know next time you know which play he's going to get heard on. And I'll make sure he he's not on the field, right? Well, yeah, being on and since we talked some fantasy and different things, I'll give you another one for your fantasy team. If you need a quarterback, Snag snoop Huntley, snoop Huntley will be the starter for the dolphins this week against the Tennessee Titans. Oh, I don't know that as a fact. We all know it's not too a tag of all right, right? Okay. Could it be Skylar Thompson? Yes. But here's why it won't. He has chest and rib issues. Let's say he has a broken rib. Yeah. If this is Josh Allen, he can not practice all week, take a game day injection and play Justin Herbert's done that before because it's Justin Herbert to Easton stick. This is Skylar Thompson who didn't perform that well. They're not going to put him on the field as a starting quarterback without a week of practice. Right. And he's not going to practice this week. So then where does it fall to Tim Boyle or snoop Huntley? Well, snoop Huntley, who with a good run game, Miami, the whole deal and dynamic, you know, the trickle has been out. We started saying this on Monday on our podcast. There's been some trickle that it's possible. This is one if we could do sick picks and bet who the starting quarterback is. I would parlay Hennakey to Huntley and probably get good odds on it. But of course, there's no such thing, right? Yeah. He gets snoop Huntley if you don't have him. Now, I have even looked on my link. If I could pick him up or he's available, that's how much I'm a fantasy expert or player, not very much. But I can tell everyone what to do. Well, well, speaking of parlays, I want to tell everybody about our sponsors. And then we will get to some Giants talk and a couple more questions before you get you out of here, Dr. Chow. I know your time is very valuable. We are sponsored here by my bookie. It's their 10th year anniversary. And my bookie is rolling out the red carpet for better starts with risk free Thursdays. So go on and bet Giants Cowboys, a lot of fun props to bet and fun games to play with my bookie. They have a loyalty rewards program. My bookie plus you can also use the promo code for talking ball with Pat Leonard. It is Pat's picks. Go to the link in any of my profiles or bios. Click on the link. Make your first deposit $50 or more up to $1,000. You will get a 100% match on that deposit, plus a $10 casino chip with the Pat's picks promo codes will do that today. Make your football season a winning season with my bookie bet anything anytime anywhere. Also brought to you by a state 98 coffee and all natural specialty coffee with no sugar convenient for on the go coffee drinkers. Go to a state 98 dot com backslash talking ball to get a special buy one get one free deal. And brought to you by boom chaga mushroom super drink. It is a natural extract loaded with anti inflammatory immune boosting antioxidants and heart healthy compounds. You can pour this natural liquid supplement into any of your favorite drinks. I put mine in my coffee every morning and immediately feel the difference. Go to boom chaga dot com today to place your first order. Use the discount This episode is brought to you by progressive insurance, fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to progressive and save hundreds because progressive offers discounts for pain and full, owning a home and more. Plus you can count on their great customer service to help you when you need it so your dollar goes a long way. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save on car insurance. Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates potential savings will vary not available in all states or situations. Hey your job. Do you ever have to deal with a nose roller? How about a snub bully? Well if you're installing a new conveyor belt system, dealing with the different components can sound like you're speaking a foreign language. Luckily you've got a team ready to help. Granger's technical product specialists are fluent in maintenance, repair and operations. So whenever you want to talk shop just reach out. Call click Granger dot com or just stop buying Granger for the ones who get it done. Code talking ball 25 with the QR code on your screen and you'll get 25% off your first subscribe and save order. Right now that means a month's supply costs you only $30. Start filling the difference today at boom chaga dot com. So flipping over to the Giants doctor chow. There's a couple of things I want to talk about. Graham Gino of course was the big injury that stood out in week two at Washington. But first I want to ask you and a fan asked me this on a recent live chat. We do a talking ball live chat with the fans asked me questions directly. And they wanted to know what I saw from Daniel Jones's surgically repaired knee. And so I put it to you after three weeks. How does Daniel look? Does he look 100% to you? What do you think? Well I'll put it to you. You watch every Giants game and you break down film for Giants games. I'm in the war room when it's a 10 three split early in late games. The Giants are one of 10 games. So I excuse me. I do see it but I'm seeing piecemeal. What we said for Daniel Jones at the beginning of the season you tell me how good we look so far or how off we are because you see him a lot and you know what he's like. We gave him a higher season long six score than we did. Kyler Murray coming back from ACL last year because they're different quarterbacks. And we felt like Daniel Jones would do better than Kyler Murray did last year. Well he already has because he started the season right. Kyler Murray did not start the season last year for the Cardinals. And we said you know we're actually not that down on his running ability. Is he 100% yet? I don't know that he is. But he's a straight line runner. He's a giraffe. He doesn't have a lot of wiggle. He's not Kyler Murray when he runs. And I would imagine that his straight line running ability. Straight line running is one of the first things that comes back from ACL. One of the last things is really cutting and being dynamic. But I don't see Daniel Jones as that. So he's got plenty of strength in the pocket, pretty ability in the pocket. And he can run in a straight line. Now he still probably has problems slowing down. You know instead of stopping in two steps he probably takes 15 to slow down. So he's not 100%. But I would imagine his knee bothers him less than other quarterbacks. And he's okay all these not 100% from the how does he look to you mobility wise and otherwise. Yeah I think you're off season analysis. I think that was in August maybe we spoke. I think it was right on the money. In fact when the fan asked me the other day coming off the Browns win I hadn't the knee wasn't even something I was thinking about until I was asked about it. So that should tell you how Daniel looks. I mean Dable was using him on design quarterback runs on the first game of the season. So not only like you said did he play and start that first game of the season off the knee. They were using design quarterback runs. You're right. Most of them straight line runs. That is typically how he runs anyway. But even in the Cleveland game just here he was alluding pressure. He had one play in the first half where he eluded pressure. He drops back. Okay so it's the right knee that that was repaired. He drops back plants looks he faces pressure from his right. He steps to his right starts running left in the pocket. Plants his left foot pushes off back to his right forward in the pocket running throw out to the right sideline to Juan Dale Robinson. So that was vertical that was lateral. That was a quarterback who looked to me like he was not limited severely in any way. I haven't you know I think like you said it would be interesting to see if he's forced to make a hard lateral cut on a design run in space against some of these fast and big defenders if there's any limitations there. But I have not noticed anything so that should be encouraging for Giants fans. Yeah so so far we're okay but I'm not saying he's 100% but I'm just saying he's the way he's style and the way he plays it's going to affect him less than a kind of a murder. And so yeah you were and not all these skills are the same there's associated damage in the whole thing. But you were right on the money. And so you know flipping from the positive to the critical here how big of a mistake was it by the Giants to not have a backup plan to Graham Ganno in that game where they they knew the Saturday before he had a groin injury and then he pulls a hamstring on the opening kickoff. Do you do you think because me logically there's a connection between a guy who's favoring his kicking leg and has a groin injury there and then he injures his hamstring the first time he opens up and runs. Dave old's comment was I was I'm not a doctor as if they were completely unrelated things he said well it was his hamstring it wasn't his groin as if it just magically appeared but I'm not a doctor either so you tell me how did you view that whole situation. Wasn't wasn't in the room and what I always say if a team makes a decision that doesn't make sense to us on the outside it probably made sense to them on the inside we don't have all the factors but I do think and it's happened to me before people have questioned what the Chargers did like well you guys don't know this big piece of information on the outside and we couldn't tell you and if you did know you'd agree with what we did but that's a whole other story. So I'm not trying to be critical of the Giants Brian Dable they've got a good medical staff. Ronnie Barnes as you know has been there forever he's like a senior VP and mad respect for him as the he's he's he's not even the head athletic training where he's the boss of the head athletic trainer he's the boss. So mad respect for everyone there however the question of whether the hamstring was related to the groin or not to me is irrelevant. Now do I think there could be a relationship yes injuries be it injuries it was the right groin it's the right hamstring yeah but who could predict that he'd have to try and run down Austin Efler okay I mean right I mean come on and now I don't know if that's certainly plausible Dr. Ciao but it's certainly well but here's and I didn't see that part of the game and I didn't know about the report of the groin ahead of the game so I wasn't watching but was that opening kickoff into the end zone or was it short? Oh I think it was short and that would make sense with the groin so even if the groin muscle and the hamstring muscle weren't related the groin injury probably cost him some distance on the kickoff leading to a return that caused the hamstring so whether it's directly or indirectly there may be some relationship but here's why I said the first part once I found out it was a groin strain on the kicking leg yeah nobody kicks straight on anymore everyone sweeps right soccer style groin is very important when I was head team physician we were always very worried about groin injuries and especially on kickers not only because it can affect him but because at any moment on a kickoff so let's say Graham Gino doesn't pull up pull his hamstring his next kickoff do you think he's going to put in a little extra juice and make sure it goes into the end zone yeah maybe he pulls his groin then or maybe it's on a 57 yard field goal I don't know what his distance was the problem is medically there's only one it's not like if you're running back goes out you have RB2 there's only one exactly and if you don't trust your punter to kick extra points after one miss that means you don't have a plan B so the criticism isn't is it linked or not you always have to be prepared for the and that's where kickers are different than other players you know no one wants it's bad enough as you know to lose someone in a game because you know roster spots are precious right coaches hate that yeah but you lose a kicker there's not a second no one activates two kickers now if your punter is really good at kicking maybe you can do that maybe you just value Graham Gino's kicking ability and accuracy and maybe your punter can kick off on the longer kicks or something but let me tell you if Graham Gino is 90% and healthy and he's anywhere close and the backup is anywhere close you have to activate the practice vodka because of that risk of injury because there's only one that's my only roster thing what have you and I don't know if the discussion was had and I'm not trying to be critical I don't know how bad the groin was maybe they were very confident it was nothing maybe it was unrelated directly but even then the theory is maybe if the kickoff is a few hard shorter than that invited the return which invited the hamstring it was online it was even going to the game with one especially with a kicking leg groin that's all I can say it's risky maybe their practice squad guy is no good and they couldn't use him I know they brought in tryouts of new people right and so maybe they're like we just can't play that right it was kicked into the two yard line by the way it was short and your analysis kind of reinforces the way I look at it too is yes it's an injury question but like what you're saying also is it's just as much a roster management question as far as just like you said we don't have the exact information on what they a judge of the injury going in but we can say how the critical nature of that position given any sort of doubt at that position and the depth chart and lack of faith in his replacement who's there as the punter on the roster so it's a roster management call as well and I'll play this like I said from when I started I wasn't critical I'm just saying it's a fair question to ask and this is because of my teen physician experience in saying this I mean I would have been kicking myself literally if we didn't have that discussion and maybe they have that discussion and said no we're going with Graham Canoe he feels fine and maybe that has to do with and I don't even know who the the practice squad place kicker was or you know at the time and I don't know what to happen but the bottom line is they it seemed like they didn't have enough confidence in him to just elevate it right they did oh right they did try it so maybe they said you know we should elevate them but you know grab you know is still better and we'll take the risk right and maybe that's what Brian Dable and the medical staff and the coaches all did but he doesn't want to say that now publicly right so I'm not being critical of Dable at all I'm just saying yes these are things that should have been discussed and maybe they were yeah yeah no great insight one thing I wanted to point out about this week too and you might have a different answer so if you do let me know I was looking at you mentioned we talked about the Chargers earlier as a game that really is impacted heavily by injuries I looked at the schedule I feel like one that stands out to me is the Eagles Bucks where the Eagles have AJ Brown with a hamstring Devontae Smith and Lane Johnson with concussions seems like a game that on the surface you look from the outside looking in you say Eagles pretty good team but you zero in you look at the injuries looks like that could be a huge factor in this game on the road do you agree with me that that stands out to you is there another game that stands out to you more just as much well the the last week's injury ball game was Rams and 49ers this week's injury ball game is 49ers and steel and and Patriots right both sides have some injuries but yes we've talked about the Eagles wide receivers I think it's unlikely the AJ Brown will play remember it's a late week hamstring he's had had that a lot of time and by the way the Eagles have a buy so they'd be smart to say let's get you right Devontae Smith concussion look it looked like a bad hit but you can't judge by the hit statistically it's almost 50-50 that he could return to play which is would be good news but we'll see but he ain't practicing all week so if you don't practice all week how do you game plan with and and make him the centerpiece when you don't even know if he's going to be there and their number four receiver is just got put on IR and written Covey right yeah and Dotson who they traded for is there and so it'll be interesting is this heavy saquon Barkley game who knows yeah this is eight or nine guys in the box from Todd Bowles right that's what this is yeah I mean Todd Bowles will have something creative and special but yeah there there are some issues there too look at least the Packers get who would have thought what what okay Jordan love we hadn't recovered him okay think about this more improbable Jordan love returning to play week four or the Packers undefeated in his absence the undefeated in his absence part and it's not it's not like I consider Jordan love a top five quarterback or anything but based on what Malik Willis was viewed as right when they traded for him from Tennessee I don't think anybody could have predicted that and he just got there like a couple coffee there right and here you go but Jordan I agree with you that's the bigger surprise because guess what from the get-go we were saying that's not a season ending knee injury that pop is not significant on Jordan love it's not IR it's it's not surgery and we were hopeful he could stay off of IR and if you rewind the take back a couple weeks I said that Packers are going to target week four and here we are week four it's not official that he's playing but I think everyone believes that he is right yeah last week we did not believe that Jordan love would play at all even though there's LP and the status and questionable but this week we strongly believe he is and thankfully so is Sam Darnell that knee issue for him was not so good we want healthy people everywhere we do we do uh last question for me is more of a general one doctor chow and it relates to you know covering these games every week obviously unfortunately you see injuries every week and every game and wanted to know from your vantage point how tall for those conversations of deciding whether a player is going back into a game or not and mainly I ask that because I know there's a lot of players who they'll tell me let's say after a game on Tuesday or Wednesday he'll say yeah this happened and I probably shouldn't have gone back in but I told him I was fine or yeah this happened but I just played through it you know we'll see where it goes and so just wondering like there's got to be a lot from a doctor's perspective where at times you're relying on what the player is telling you but then also who are and quite often for concussions that's what you're relying on from the get going unless they have outward times right I mean if if they don't tell you they saw spots how are you supposed to know now if they're off balance or visual sign okay but yeah and they don't tell you their knee hurts how you supposed to know I've had I wrote about this once Drew Brees once shrugged off a shoulder injury said I'm fine I'm not coming out of this game like no you're not fine right I mean kind of thing so I mean it happens all the time but you as a doctor need to exercise caution and if it's something that you can make more sore you let the player decide if it's something that you can permanently damage you have to put your foot down if it's something in between there's judgment and this is where okay here's my mini commercial okay people have said lay people why is the team doctor hired by the team and report to the team that is an un it's a biased approach against the players look the team doctor cannot show up on game day and make decisions otherwise you'll have what happened with the Seattle safety and in the in the concussion guy early last year I forget you got your Jamal Adams right throwing his helmet mad at a guy because he didn't know this guy from Adam kind of thing you have to have relationships with players so that the A they develop trust in you and B you know where they come from and how they simple symptom amplified or hide or what have you and you can establish those relationships on the sidelines on game day you have to establish them when they're drafted at training camp and during the week just like you when you need a big quote from a player that can't be the first time you go to him no doubt right the same thing you have to develop relationships same with the team doctors so yeah team doctors can't be just dropped into a situation that's not the way to go and look when you see your own doctor don't you have more confidence when it's the same guy that you've seen for years as opposed to a new guy that substituting you're like yeah I don't I'm not sure he knows me so yeah it's a delicate situation but a lot of it is based on relationships great answer doctor chow has been fantastic everybody you know him he is the pro football doc follow him on X pro football doc the website for sports injury central is s i c score dot com longtime NFL head team doctor live injury analysis got to check into his account and to his website throughout NFL Sundays and all season long I think we got you guys ready for week four here in the NFL hopefully gonna scour the internet for that uh that snoop huntley Taylor Heineke parlay see if I see if I can find it on my bookie somewhere dot the chow but thank you so much for this this is really informative and insightful and I had a lot of fun and I'm sorry for blowing up your clock you probably canceled three other guests because I kept talking so no no well worth it well worth it and uh overdue but we'll do it again and thank you so much for your time and your expertise that that was an awesome interview and conversation with doctor david chow the pro football doc go find him on s i c score dot com we are proud to be sponsored here by my bookie my bookie dot ag is rolling out the red carpet for sports betters they have risk-free thursday you could kick off your week four with some bets on the cowboys and giants prime time match up use the promo code pat's picks use the link in any of my social media profiles and bios click the link and at the cashier enter pat's picks promo code and you will get a 100 percent match on your first deposit of fifty dollars or more up to a thousand dollars plus a ten dollar 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favorite drinks and put mine in my coffee every morning and immediately feel the difference i personally i felt a post workout like energy boost with boom chaga also has the ability to lower cholesterol reduce inflammation and improve immune and heart health with its beta gluten and antioxidants go to boom chaga dot com today to place your first order and if you use the discount code talking ball 25 or access it through the qr code on your screen you'll get 25% off your first subscribe and save order right now that means a month supply costs you only 30 dollars start feeling the difference today at boom chaga.com thanks for watching on youtube pl on nfl on the youtube channel thanks for listening on the believe network on apple spotify wherever you get your podcast please subscribe rate and review all the ratings all the likes all the follows and all the subscriptions help us continue to grow this great community here on talking ball with pat lennard see you next time man i mean come on man just go this isn't cbs all right be quiet for a few seconds why would people want to listen to the sims complete podcast well a couple things one if you like to see sons pick on their father this might be the place if you want to see a place where the father just kicks he out of his son this would be the place how what do you like about it man ditto father son dynamic duo talking about the game of football that we love and share and appreciate together and you know hey it's an extension of what we did right growing up i i was able to watch my father play football then obviously watch him as a broadcaster and then he taught me the game of football and share the wisdom that he learned throughout his playing career and uh you know hey sometimes we're full of it and sometimes we're we actually know a thing or two well we do do a lot of research at least i do i'm you you little spotty but you know you're you hang in there it's fun i love doing this and it's been awesome sims complete check us out wherever your podcasts are available on the believe network appreciate it see you if you liked the show please take a moment to rate review and subscribe it really does help the show to grow thank you for listening [BLANK_AUDIO]