The Essential Training Podcast
Ep 35 - Rise Up Founder - Susan Dwyer
What's the link between entrepreneurship and fulfilling own professional needs?
How can we look after ourselves and create something of value at the same time?
How important is taking time out to help us figure out what we want?
These are questions that Rise Up Founder Susan Dwyer and I explore on this week's episode, as well as chatting with Dad in our regular post-interview reflection. Rise Up is a leading career destination for women in Ireland. They focus on supporting underrepresented female talent to rise up and avail of new career growth opportunities. Their mission is to narrow the gender leadership gap and advance more women in their careers.
Susan shares her own career journey, going travelling in Latin America solo after a successful period in recruitment and how that led her to found Rise Up, when she was looking for a forum to find female career mentors and she couldn't find any. I love stories where people create something out of a need that they wanted themselves. We talk about burnout, authentic leadership and the similarity of women's groups and the men's groups I'm involved in.
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
- Broadcast on:
- 11 Sep 2024
- Audio Format:
- other
(upbeat music) - Hello and welcome to the Essential Training Podcast with me, Brian Kingston, and my dad, Ian Kingston. In this space and through our work, we get to chat with ordinary people who have extraordinary stories. - Our hope is that through listening to these conversations, we get to reflect on the stories we tell ourselves and unlock more of our own potential. - Thanks for listening and we hope you enjoy. (upbeat music) - This episode is brought to you by Fad Sale Saunas. Fad Sale is the Irish for long life and they were Ireland's first commercial Saunas service set up in 2019. Their mission is to communicate, educate, inspire people on the benefits of Sauna and coal bathing. And their vision is to enhance the wellbeing of the people of Ireland and further afield and to give people more healthy lifestyle choices. They have locations in Greystones, Galway, and Clantar Rugby Club in Ireland. And I am a regular user of the Sauna. I go down once or twice a week. They're only down the road from us. And they have set up an amazing community there where you've got the Sauna, you've got Rise of the Cove Coffee, right in the midst of Tiglin, which is Ireland's oldest addiction treatment center clinic. So you've got a real mix of people and mindsets. And I go down there, I spend 15 minutes in the Sauna, step outside, cool down, go back for another 15 minutes. And then I usually pop down to the sea, spend a couple of minutes in the sea, depending on how brave I feel that day. And afterwards, I always feel rejuvenated, energized. And sometimes I'll pop in for a coffee at Rise of the Cove. And I just love bumping into people down there and there's an amazing community. And Steve says this and I felt it as well. It's kind of like the vibe of a pub without alcohol. You go down with friends, you can go down alone, you can bump into people, you can stay on your own. And it's just this amazing vibe and amazing community of people. So we're so happy to be sponsored by FODSail and long may it last, and we're excited to see where this partnership goes. So thanks Steve and your team for FODSail Saunas for sponsoring the podcast and go check them out on their Instagram or on their website. - On this week's episode, I sat down with the founder of Rise Up, Susan Dwyer. Rise Up is Ireland's leading professional network for emerging female leaders where they run events, have content and create spaces for women to support each other in the workplace. And she also is a host of the Rise Up podcast where they uncover the secrets behind some of the most successful female founders and business leaders in Ireland. And I've been following what Susan's doing for a couple of years and I've been really inspired by her passion of building community of networking and creating spaces where people can have insights, can share their knowledge and support each other. And it's very aligned with a lot of the work I do in men's groups. So in this conversation, we got to touch on the power of bringing people together. We got to hear about her journey through her career, different crossroads that she's had and her own entrepreneurial journey and now what she does in bringing entrepreneurs together through her work with Elthstone as the head of community building. And this conversation was really inspiring for one because I've been so inspired by what Susan does and I felt the humanity behind what she does and the authenticity and the genuineness with which she does it. And you'll hear as well, Dad and I reflect on the conversation and they were some of the insights that he got as well. So I just want to thank Susan for coming on the podcast. She mentions that it's the first time being a guest on a podcast, which I was really surprised to hear considering all that she's done. So thanks a million for coming on and yeah, I hope you get something out of this. Let us know what you think, what came up for you and enjoy. Okay, Susan, it's great to have you here. - Ryan, it's great to be here. Thanks for asking me. - You're welcome. It's an absolute pleasure. And I suppose for context, I've been following what you've been doing online with Rise Up Women and with your podcast Rise Up and they're all centered around careers for women and how do you and the communities that you're creating. And it's been really inspiring and also inspiring for me because I do a lot of men's work as well. And I see there's a real link there. And I'd love to hear how you got to that point, but maybe first of all, for anybody who doesn't know, can you tell us a little bit about the community that you've created and your podcast and that kind of world? - Yeah, sure. So Rise Up ensures is a community platform designed to connect and support women, particularly women in the working world 'cause it's quite careers focused. I guess for a little bit of context probably makes sense on why I started it or how it all began. So I think I just went 30 at the time, maybe 31. But I was in, I was working for a company in Dublin and I started, it was the first time I actually probably felt stuck in my career. Like, I felt like I wasn't really learning. I wasn't growing and I actually just wasn't enjoying my job the way I used to. And I didn't really know why, but it was the first time actually, I properly, I'd say connected with my intuition. And I was like, what's going on here? Like, why do I feel this way? But I just knew, this was like the end of 2019, coming into 2020. And I just felt like 2020 was gonna be this like big year of change and new things. And so shortly after these feelings, I kind of, I quit my job. I decided to get out of Ireland for a while, do a bit of traveling. I do a bit of solo traveling actually, which I'd never done before. I went to South America for a few months. And I guess it was on that trip. It was the first time I'd ever taken time out from like a stint of time out from work, which honestly, when I'm speaking to people that make their careers, particularly people who are out of chronic crossroads, I always like, if you can afford to do it, do it. 'Cause it really helps with like clarity and all that good stuff. But anyway, when I was traveling, I was traveling by myself. And so I kind of quickly learned like I was, I started really thinking about what's working for me and what's not working for me. And the things that I was enjoying about my career and life actually in general. And the things that weren't serving me so well. So it was kind of through that time out, I came, I spent some time inside America, came home and then COVID happened. So during, it was really during COVID, I had to move back in with my parents. Like it was a very weird time, like it was for everyone. And I spent a lot of time alone figuring out what it was that I wanted to do. And it was through COVID really that I started to think about, well, I hired a coach, first of all. And I was like, okay, these are things I'm passionate about. These are the things that I experienced in recruitment and what I saw in the working world of recruitment. And I started searching, so I didn't know what I wanted to do when I came home. And I started looking for online communities where I could get mentorship, where I could meet with people who kind of understood my background. And at the time I had a very good network, but it was quite male dominated 'cause I'd worked in a lot of, I just worked with more men than women over the years. And so I was kind of craving that female mentorship piece. And that's when I started looking for online communities, a place where I could go to connect with other women, find mentors, access jobs. And I couldn't find what I was looking for. And so it was through this whole kind of frustration of not being able to find that network that I created rise up and that's kind of how it all began. It started with the social media page, then I hosted an online event, then I created a website. So it was never really a business to me, it was just this thing that I was doing until I started to get feedback from women being like, oh my God, you know, I've been looking for a network like this. I'd love to come to one of your events. And naturally, this was all during COVID, so it was all online. And like really a kind of group from there. That was a very long-winded answer, but... - That's where the gold is, so. - There's lots in there. And I suppose we could delve into the success of rise up, but I'd like to just pause for a minute. Like that description you sent at the beginning of being stuck in your career. I suppose I remember a few times coming home from work at four or five o'clock, having a really productive day, but kind of looking back and going, like, I don't know what I know is really busy today. What, and like, what did I achieve? And then I achieved lots of things, but I had this like sinking kind of emptiness feeling. And that lasted for a few years because I didn't really know what was up. And it's what led me to do what I do now. And I'm wondering for you, that stuck feeling, 'cause I'm guessing that people are listening to this, have maybe felt it in the past, maybe feeling it right now, maybe feel it in the future. So could you describe it a little bit about what that stuck feeling was? - Yeah, sure. Like my usual personality and work, I would be kind of, I like to have fun and work. I think it's really important and not taking myself too seriously. But all of a sudden I just remember I wasn't looking forward to going into work. It kind of that dread feeling. When I was in work, I wasn't my usual kind of bubbly self. I was quieter. And I just remember, I just remember kind of feeling a bit sad, honestly. And I was kind of confused, 'cause I didn't, I was doing really well on my job. Like I was one of the top pillars. I was doing well financially and on paper things were good. But I don't know, for me, one of my values is learning. And anytime, any situation where I feel like I'm not growing or learning, always leads to me feeling stuck. So it was just this kind of feeling of, I wasn't moving forward. And yeah, that started to kind of great at me. But you know what, at the time, like I didn't have any of this clarity. And it was very hard for me to describe, but it was just this kind of inner knowing that I needed to make a change. You know, the way they say like, you know, sometimes it can be a little whisper or sometimes then if you don't listen to the whisper, it'll be a bigger nudge. And then I think I ignored the first few signs and I've done this in the various aspects of my life. Until it got really bad that like my intuition was almost like screaming at me being like, "Okay, you gotta make a change here." And that's kind of when I made what seemed like in a abrupt change from the outside. But for me, it just kind of felt right. - Yeah, I was talking to a friend of mine at a wedding, I was out recently and we were talking about how I remember, I played rugby a lot growing up. And then one year I just quit and I went to walk to Camino or Santiago. And he was like, "We thought you needed to be committed. "We thought that you were losing your mind." Because, you know, as a 20 year old, you know, go and walk, walk a pilgrimage. But I just had this inner knowing that there was something more out there for me. But I didn't have a clue what it was and the Camino ended up being one of the things for me to tap into that. - Yeah, and it's so funny, I remember, 'cause you know that some people always have these like dreams of like, I don't know, traveling South America by themselves or whatever, or the world. And I didn't have that desire. Like, and I remember my friends and I quit my job like I left a relationship and I went off by myself to date America, like with a one-way tickets. And I remember the exact same thing. Everyone was like, "Are you okay?" But I think you just have these moments, don't you? Where you just need to do these things. - Yeah, like it's like an eat, pray, love moment, you know? It's like-- - Yeah, a little bit, like, yeah. - Well, you know, I think those whispers, when we don't listen to them for so long, the thing that we need to do to get back to ourselves sometimes feels like it needs to be more and more abrupt. And because if we haven't listened to ourselves for so long, it's a big leap to get back to ourselves. - Yeah. - And I think having done, I go a bit of Latin America myself on a similar solo trip, that space and time allows you, outside of your general comfort zone and people that you know allows you a space to be like, "Okay, what do I really want to do today? "Who do I really want to spend my time with? "How do I really want to be spending my days?" So I'm wondering, like, when you were on that trip, can you remember some moments or some insights that you had or some of those reflections? - Yeah, I think, well, firstly, it was the first time I'd ever spent, like, proper time alone. So, you know, I think, that was the first thing. So quite quickly, you know, you don't have anyone else to rely on to help you make decisions, which is a big thing for me. So, like, every single day, and I didn't even have, like, a plan, like, I didn't have a roof. So I was literally, like, waking up, you know, connecting with different people every day and going with the flow quite literally. But what I did was, I slowly was surely, like, started to trust myself because I was making all the decisions based on whatever I felt like was right. And this could be as simple as, you know, "Do I take a right turn here or a left turn? "Do I meet this person for dinner or do I not? "Do I go to this spiritual ceremony "that someone's invited to me or, you know, "isn't a bit woo-woo?" So, slowly but surely, I started to make all these decisions and they were working out and not turning out terribly for the most part. And so, I really started to, like, trust myself. And I've always been quite independent, but this was kind of, like, a different sense of independence, I guess. And with that, like, you know, you start to become more confident. And, yeah, I just, I started to really kind of connect with myself on a different level than I had before. And that helped me, you know, figure out who do I want to spend more time with? Who do I want to spend less time with? But also, like, I came back to Ireland with, like, this real sense of, I don't know if it was, like, determination, but, like, I'm going to do something that one, I'm passionate about, that I enjoy getting up every morning to do. And two, like, I want to do something, I want to do something that, you know, has a positive impact. And so, that's kind of where a lot of changes started to happen to me. - Yeah, that word determination, I mean, a lot of people I've spoken to on this podcast and people I admire, like, in the business world or the world in general. Often, an entrepreneur is when they create something, it's because they wanted it themselves and then they realized that it wasn't there, so they just went and created it because, and Heather Gordon we had in the podcast two weeks ago, she runs Trails and Roots, they bring people on running trips. She'd be brilliant on her podcast. And she just created the business because she had amazing experiences traveling around the world running. And so, created that. Or, I remember, years ago, I was in Spokenware Poetry and there was none where I lived, so I just started when I did it for a year and it's still going today. And it's kind of sometimes wild to think what can happen when we just put ourselves out there. And so, when you created that, your social media, like, did you have a vision for what it could be? Can you tell us a bit about that? - Not really, to be honest. I was like, okay, I had an idea of what I wanted to create. I was like, I want to create this community where we host events, we create content, and we really inspire women on their career journey and actually help them progress. So the vision was like, 'cause in recruitment, I saw a big gap in women and leadership and it really annoyed me. And so I was like, okay, I want to get more women into leadership positions, but I also want to support them so that they stay there. Because women tend to drop out of the workplace at a similar stage in life. And so I was like, okay, how can we create spaces, supportive spaces for women where if they're struggling with X, Y and Z, they can come to our event or they can watch our content or whatever it is. So that was kind of the vision, I guess. - Is it a stretch to say when you were feeling stuck in that moment that you would have loved to have something like this when you were in the group? - Oh yeah, sorry, that's the whole reason why I set it up. As in like, when I was feeling stuck, I was like, I needed guidance, I needed mentorship, I needed support. And look, I think I'm so lucky like I have incredible friends and I have an amazing family who all gave me advice. But it wasn't the advice that I needed or wanted. And it came from a place of love, so don't get me wrong, but there's something to be said for getting advice from someone in partial who has no emotional connection to you. And he's someone who understands your background as well and your ambitions. And that's what I was craving. And that's kind of like therapy, I guess. You go to someone who's impartial, they've no connection to you. And that's what I was craving for my career. So I was like, I'd love to create, I would have loved to have this a year ago. And I think, you know, lots of other women could benefit from having spaces like this. - And you know, you say advice, and I think the benefits of groups like this, even before it gets to advice, just being able to talk out what you're experiencing is so valuable in itself. - And that's a huge thing. So we do like monthly circles. We've partnered with iconic offices who for the last year have been amazing. And every month we'll bring together 12, 10 to 12, rise up community members, who typically have never met before. And we'll have a different theme every month could be anything from, I don't know, from self-promotion to well-being, whatever, at different topics every month. - But the one thing that comes out of these circles, sorry, lots of things come out of these circles, 'cause they can be quite vulnerable conversations. But it's literally just having a group of people listen to you and feeling less alone, leaving the circle. Like that's the biggest takeaway. Every single time I'm like, it's that you can see it in their eyes when someone's talking and someone else is like, "Oh my God, that's what I'm feeling." Or, "That's what I went through last year." And yeah, what I've learned is that even though all our journeys are so unique and they're so different, and we can compare our journeys to each other, like as women in particular, like a lot of the challenges that we face are the exact same, just at different points in our careers and in our lives. So I think there's real power in coming together as a group to share those experiences with each other because A, you learn so much and B, you feel less alone. - Yeah, it's so funny you say that, 'cause that's exactly what I was gonna ask you about was what's the particular power of women coming together? Because I know there's a real power in men's groups as well in that kind of shared experience, and I wonder if it's a little bit about that. 'Cause I'm thinking about, we have a lot of clients that are women in the workplace, women in leadership, think about my sister, my partner, my family. So maybe for any of them who haven't experienced something like this, what are some of those unique elements that it's hard to find anywhere else? - Yeah, and I think it's probably similar to what you see in your men's circles. But for me, and we actually do, like I keep it open to men to attend, although I've only had a couple of brave soldiers who've turned off. So mostly for the most part, 99% is just women. And I think, look, I think there's something special when you bring a group of women together. Like A, I just think people kind of let their guard down a bit more, and a lot of the women that join our network would work in quite male-dominated spaces or fields. So being in a room full of women is not the norm. They're, they often, they might be the only women in the room. So first of all, it's a nice change for them. Back in the, I think, the sense of safety and, you know, and that's a big part of my job, like setting the scene, letting them know that like this is a safe space, whatever said, you know, these are women and senior roles working in top companies all across the country, like whatever said in these four walls will stay here. And so I think it's that comfort, it's that safe space. And then it's, it's honestly like the vulnerability of people opening up, sharing kind of what they're struggling with and just listening to each other and learning from each other's experiences. And like I said before, you know, you will find pretty quickly in all these circles, the common threads start to come up so quickly because as human beings, we're all struggling with the same things. - Hmm, that's really well said. And it's funny because what you just said, I could carve and copy that into the experience I have from men's groups. - Really? - Yeah, I mean like, so I'm part of one group and we meet every Monday for a swim, although the things that I always show too is once a month we have like a guest speaker or a facilitator or a coach or a therapist come speak to us and we do like in a workshop setting. And the group's called Blue Balls Ireland, which is a cheeky name, but it's because we do cold swimming together. - Okay, accents. - Yeah, yeah. And I think it's from a UK group, but like, so there's people from all walks of life, even working class, middle class, upper class, if that even exists. And you've got people from all over the world, like it's based in Ireland so the majority are Irish, but you've got a real mix. You know, it's, you've got fathers, you've got people that are divorced, you've got people that live at home, but then like consistently, consistently when I come out, I have a sense of relief. Now, that relief could be, oh, someone's going through something that I've gone, someone has gone through something that I'm going through. Or God, I actually have it really good because I don't have it as tough as someone else. - Yeah. - And I can be there for them. Or I just got to speak out of something and release something that I've been holding on to for a while that I didn't realize. I mean, there was one exercise we did and we had a sheet of paper and it was what would you do if fear wasn't holding you back? And we wrote down a list of things and I came across my list from a year ago and I had done all the things and these were wild things that I was riding down kind of like almost sniggering out myself, like yeah, right, you know? So it was just a space to kind of, as you said, that safe space of exploration of where do I want, what do I actually want? - And that's what I often find in our circles is sometimes I find, and sometimes we'll have themes around change and things like that. But a lot of people are like wanting to make some kind of change or actually pursue, they might be a corporate lawyer, but their passion is, I don't know, something completely different and they're yearning to do this other thing, but they're all sort of like terrified and they have a family and they have, and it's a pretty, that's a difficult spot to be in, but I do find that a lot. It's like this fear of making change and almost not allowing yourself to openly say that you would love to become, I don't know, a full-time yoga teacher or whatever it is. And I think by creating these spaces and other people are admitting like their wildest dreams or ambitions, it's really, it's really empowering. And I think it's great, I think it's great what you are doing with men's circles, like I see such a place for that. Like I empathize with men a lot. Like I think of the men in my life and family and friends and how much more difficult they find it to open up and to be vulnerable. Like if I'm having a difficult time or going through a challenge or whatever life is throwing at me, like I'll pick up the phone to my friend straight away and I will just tell them exactly. And they don't even have to say anything, they just need to listen to me, but I will do that and I feel comfortable enough to do that. And I know a lot of the men in my life don't have that and I worry about them a lot because I don't know what I do without that. So I think people like you and these different groups that you're going to creating spaces for men, like I would love to see more of that because I think it's, I think it's so important. - Yeah, I appreciate saying that. And I mean, the reason I got involved in all these things was out of necessity. Like you, I needed somewhere I could go that maybe wasn't my dad. I mean, we work together and he's also my dad. That's maybe not a close friend. It's like that impartial, it's a place where I can say something without judgment. And as you're speaking there, it was really reminding us something I came across yesterday. I was at this event called the Celtic World Forum, which my friend Ava McMahon runs. And they bring together Irish artists, musicians from all walks and that have toured internationally. And then they have people come for four days and there's workshops and there's concert every night. But they had Moya Brennan who was the, one of the founding members of "Planet" an Irish music group. And she was one of the first women to be touring around Europe as a folk artist. And she said like one of the furies, who's said like, oh, no women on tour, you know, there was just this, there was just this sense of like that women weren't accepted in that space, which I was kind of surprised about, but I was like, oh, that makes sense. Like of course it would be in that industry as well, but I just didn't, you know, but there was a theme to what she was saying was the people around her, let's say in Ireland or in the industry didn't really accept what they're doing. And it was only when people from like the UK or from different countries kind of said, what you're doing is special. We want to champion that, that they kind of had the confidence in themselves to go do it. And it reminds me of these groups because if I say something to a friend of mine who's known me for 20 years, like I want to go and be a yoga teacher, they might look at me like, you know, but if I say to a random group of people, sure they're just like, well, if that's your dream, go, you know, okay, what steps you need to take. So there's something special about going into a space like that. - A hundred percent. And I think in Ireland, like, you know, the way kind of this society is set up, you know, often our friends are, you know, I think of my best friends. They're friends I've made in school, like, you know, and I've changed so much. Oh, we all have, like, you know, since I was in school and, you know, I have much different interests to a lot of my friends now. I'd, they'll still always be like my core friends for life, but I think it's so important to seek out new relationships where you have common interests with these people, where they can inspire you, support you. Because ultimately, I think, you know, your success is very much determined by the people you surround yourself with. And this is something I've learned massively over the last couple of years. And that's why I, that's why I love doing a podcast, like being surrounded by, you know, ambitious people who are creating things, who are going after their dreams. It really inspires me and it encourages me to, like, be more of the person that I want to be. And so when I, when I'm giving or when I'm, you know, I've got a, I'm the eldest of five and, you know, I've a few brothers who are kind of trying to figure out careers at the moment. And that's what I always say, like, just make sure you're surrounding yourself with the right people. Like, think about who do you admire? Go chat them, like, go ask them for a coffee. Because that's what I've done over recent years, and it's been a game changer for me personally. - Yeah, I mean, looking through the list of people you've had on the Rise Up podcast. And like, I just have it pulled up here. Like, Evan Moynih, the CEO of Kilkenny Design, Uno Hagen, just people that are doing amazing things, founders, CEOs, and, well, first of all, so I want to ask you, how do you, how do you get those people on your podcast? But, but, but really, I think what I relate to is the podcast has been a really good, conduit or like facilitator for just having conversations with people that I look up to. And what's been interesting, and I've talked with us before, what I kind of follow is, if I see someone online and I kind of feel envious of what they're doing, I've started to just reach out to them now. - Yeah. - Where before I would maybe just like beat myself up for enough being what they are, and they have better reviews on their website, or they've done better clients, or they have better people on their podcast, and I'm like, oh, maybe I'll just reach out to them, and usually it's completely humanized as I'm in there, usually happy to help, and-- - 100%. And that's been my biggest learning since, well, since starting my own business really, is the majority of people are always what they want to help you. And I think for me, I feel like such an imposter all the time where I'm like reaching out to these people and being like, oh yeah, I host this podcast, like do you wanna join? But like, I think, like for me, and one of the reasons why I started the podcast is like, I love connecting with people, like if I could do that all day, every day for my job, which I pretty much do in a lot of ways, I'd be super happy, super content, like feeling fulfilled. And I think a lot of people just want that. Like, and the podcast is a really nice way, and an intimate way actually, to share your story, and to share your learnings. And people want, I find a lot of successful people, they wanna give back, like they wanna share their learnings, they wanna share their failures, so other people may not make the same mistakes as them. And so that's been, that's been a real eye opener for me. - Yeah, I love what you say about connection, and I think what's come up for me right now is connecting with people as authentically as I can possible. You know? - Yeah. - Because I remember being in roles in the past, where I was, let's say selling something, and I was connecting with maybe like 40 or 50 people a day, but it was on a certain level, in a certain context, that didn't kind of give me the cup filling interaction that I probably was craving. - Yeah, 100%. I totally agree with you. And like, it's very vulnerable. Like I was saying to you before this podcast, but like, I'm most comfortable asking the questions. I don't, this is actually my first ever podcast, I think. But it's a very vulnerable thing to do, so I'm always so grateful when they're sitting there, and they're telling me about, you know, the experience of being a mother, or losing someone in their life, or 'cause, you know, often it's a career podcast, but like, you know, life comes up a lot because they're so intertwined. And, you know, when someone's, I think vulnerabilities is the key way to connect with other people, and by sharing kind of, you know, things that they've gone through in their life. So I find after that hour conversation, it's like we're almost friends basically. Like, 'cause they probably haven't shared that much about themselves in a very long time. So it's a really, like you said, it's a kind of authentic way to connect with someone on a deeper level, for sure. - Yeah, yeah, I agree. Can you talk to us a little bit about the work that you do with in the VC world, the venture capital world? - Yeah, for sure. So I started, when did I start? I started almost a year ago. For me, like, one of my big things is I, what I've learned about myself over recent years is I love entrepreneurship, and I love people who are creating things, who are building things, and who have these, like, crazy goals and ambitions. I just find it really inspiring. And that's one of the things that I've learned off the podcast, and so I was kind of thinking, I was like, how could I be around this more? How could I be around these types of people more? And I don't know if my, like, I come from quite an entrepreneurial family, so I think it's always kind of been in my blood. But anyway, that's when I was like, oh, it would be interesting to kind of look at the venture capital world and be on the other side of the table where you're working with all these founders and entrepreneurs and supporting them to succeed. So that's kind of why I got into the VC world. Like, if you had a told 20-year-old Susan that she'd be working in finance like I would have laughed in your face. But I don't really see it as that. Like, I, again, I'm connecting with people, like, in two weeks, I'm bringing a load of our founders over to New York who are looking to expand their companies globally and helping them connect with investors in the US. And for me, I love that. Like, it's really, it's a real feel-good. And I'm learning so much from these people. And working in the VC space has been a really cool way for me to kind of expose myself to a new industry, I guess. And so it's been really interesting and I'm learning a lot. I've still a lot more to learn. But, you know, one of the big things for me when I look at my career holistically, like, I'm constantly trying to reinvent myself. Like, every couple of years I'll be like, I want to try something new. And, yeah, for me right now, that's kind of working in the VC space. - Yeah, and for listening to you and your story, being in recruitment, you know, connecting people. And there's a commercial side of that. Rides up connecting women, facilitating connection and conversation and insight for people. And then doing that for entrepreneurs as well. It's, there's a people, community, facilitation thread and all of those. - Yeah, you're right. And that took me a while to kind of figure out that there has been a common theme throughout my whole career. Like, I remember, I remember back in the day, my mom was real worried about me 'cause I wasn't academic, like I didn't like school, didn't like college, just didn't resonate with the whole studying thing. And I actually left school and college feeling like I wasn't smart, which is a terrible, when I look back, like it's a terrible, it's terrible coming out of school, thinking that about yourself. But, and I remember my mom bringing me to a guidance counselor when I was like 16 'cause my mom thought, you know, her version of success in her head was like, she wanted me to be an accountant and go to KPMG. And, you know, that was success. Now that was polar opposites of me, my personality, my skill sets. And I remember the guidance counselor, I don't know, shit if you test them or whatever. And she was like, yeah, okay, you're definitely not gonna be an accountant, you're not gonna do anything, but you are gonna work with people. Like you're really gonna connect with people and building relationships with people. And that has been the common thread throughout my career. And back then obviously I was like, yeah, how am I gonna build a career from connecting with people or how am I gonna make money from building relationships with people? But, you know, what I've learned about businesses, it's all based on that. Like if you can get people to like you or if you can build meaningful relationships with people, like, I mean, you're halfway there in any industry. - Yeah, it's what a fantastic guidance counselor. I mean, what I love about what they said is they didn't, well, and how you said it. If they didn't say right, you're not gonna be an accountant, but you could be a lawyer or a doctor or a da da da da. What they focused on was, well, here are the behaviors that you have strengthened. You've strengthened connecting and building trust and creating community. What a brilliant guidance counselor for championing your strengths and your behaviors. And then not pigeonholing you, but then allowing you that to then go find yourself. - Yeah. - We do some career coaching. Well, lots of career coaching in our line of work. And, you know, sometimes like someone will come to me and be like, okay, what roles would I be good at? And that's akin to someone going, well, what would you do in the situation? You know, as a coach, I have to learn very good ways of avoiding that question, avoiding that answer, because that's not really what they want. They don't want what I would do. They don't want the roles that would be good for them, or they don't want someone, oh, it's not good to always to have that lay there in front of you. But if someone can understand what their strengths are and then go and follow that to find some roles that would fit with those strengths, that can be really powerful. And, you know, that's where maybe I'm a little bit of an idealist, but I believe that everybody can be in the working world, playing to their strengths. You know, and also working on their weaknesses as well, but like one of my favorite poets, John O'Donna, who passed in 2006, he's an Irish poet, and he did a lot of work in the corporate world. And he said, "There's nothing better "than seeing someone do work that lights them up." Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think like life is so short, and we're constantly being reminded of this. And I see so many people who've gotten into careers probably not for themselves, for outward expectations or trying to please their parents or whoever it is originally. And I just think, I agree with you. I'm of the same mindset. I think if you can figure out, and I often meet, say, women in the rise of network and they'll have trained to be like a lawyer or, I don't know, they'll have spent years studying and studying to do this thing. And it's not what they're passionate about. It's not making them happy. But I just think life is full of chapters, and you can have multiple careers. People come and go, jobs come and go. I think it's okay to change and embrace change. I like the exercise. I don't know if you've read the book Icagaya, the Japanese. It's authentic you after, but they do this exercise, there's three circles. It's like a diagram. And one of the circles is, what are you passionate about? So you write all the things that you're passionate about. The second circle is, what are the things that you can get paid for out of the first practice? So what are the things that you can actually get paid for? And the third circle is, what are the things that the world needs? And it's actually, anyone who's feeling stuck or lost, or even if you're not, I think it's a really good exercise to do, because you're left then in the middle with the kind of things that make most sense, or that join up. And it's a really good clarity building exercise for anyone who's maybe at a crossroads and looking to do something that they're more passionate about. Because I absolutely believe, particularly in 2024, that is possible to create your own career. - Yeah, 'cause if you go too far in the direction of what you're passionate about, that might be idealistic, or you might be like a tortured artist who doesn't get paid for what they wanna do, or something like that. - Exactly. - And then if you go too far in what I can get paid to do, that can become soulless. And that's like a recipe for burnout or unhappiness in your work. And then if you go too far into the world, what the world needs, that could also lead to burnout in having a bleeding heart and doing everything for everybody else, too. So where can you get all of those things together in a healthy way? - Yeah, 'cause you're right. Like I think not every passion should be turned into a business. I mean, that is a recipe to lose interest in your passion, because some passions just aren't meant to make you money, and that's okay, just keep it as a hobby. And I do see that a lot where people will love something so much. And they'll be like, oh, I love this so much. I'm gonna turn this passion into a business. And it doesn't always work. So just be careful with turning your passion into your full-time career. Sometimes it's just meant to be a hobby. And that's okay. - Well, I love that you said that, because I always say to people as well, like your job, maybe is your job, and you go find fulfillment in your hobby, and you give to the world through charity work or donations or helping a family member. Like that Ichagoye doesn't necessarily have to be all in your job. You know, that you can mix and match. - Yeah, and I'm a huge advocate for that. Because I don't know, there's a bit of an unhealthy narrative in the world where if you're unhappy in your job, just quit and follow your dreams. And yes, like I believe in that to a certain degree, but also you can get fulfillment outside of your job. So your job could be paying your bills and be allowing you to live the lifestyle that you wanna live. And your passion could be, I don't know, maybe you're a cyclist. And every morning you go cycling the roads and that's your thing. So like, you know, as long as you have that fulfillment and passion coming from somewhere, you can kind of balance it out. So it doesn't necessarily have to be all coming from your career. - Yeah, like we work with a Wim Hof breath worker. Her name's Mary Fatty, she was on the podcast. - Oh, nice. - And she does corporate work. She'd be another brilliant person for Rise Up. She does corporate work. She does Wim Hof workshops in the corporate world. And what she says to people is, when she does a corporate workshop and you know, the likes of AIB or Leah Healthcare or something, she's going in, giving people the experience of breath work and how transformational it can be. But she's not saying, come join me. You know, she's giving the people the tools to do it in the life that they have. - Yeah, yeah. And I think, I think that, you know, particularly in the world of wellness, it can be a little bit preachy sometimes. So you've got to be careful with how you're delivering those messages. And like you said, just empowering people to use the tools themselves. - And so another community that I'm involved in, that I help run is called the sales sanctuary. And it's a weekly group. It's a call for an hour every Thursday. And it's for men in sales and entrepreneurship. So again, very similar to the groups we talked about before. And a theme that came up this week was, we have our vision for where we want to be, where we want to get to, where we want to work towards. And that vision allows us to do things that maybe are not perfect, getting us there. And we use the example of like, in yoga, they have a drishti, which is, if you're doing a balancing pose, you just look at a point on the wall or the ground or wherever you are, and you focus on that to help you keep balanced. And it's like that. It's like, okay, I know I want to, for example, the kind I'm working with the moment. I know I want to be a trainer, but maybe I keep doing sales and lean into training the younger staff in my sales roles and build up my experience that way. And I remember speaking to a woman I was with on a trip to South Africa, a big rugby trip. And I said, oh, we do coaching, we do facilitation. And she's like, oh, you'd probably tell me to believe my business. And I'm like, wow, no, I just listened to what you want and helped facilitate that. And I think sometimes in this world of coaching and facilitation, there can be that idea that we want everyone to go leave their jobs and follow their passion. And it's not like that at all. It's how can you live a more fulfilling life than whatever life you want to live? - Yeah, and I think the key thing that you mentioned there is like having a vision and knowing what it is that you want and there's multiple ways to get there. Like you said, like everyone I meet, anyone who's had an interesting career that I've met, there's no straight line. Like it's very pervy and sometimes things don't work out. And sometimes things don't work out the way you think, but you still get to the place where you're meant to get to. So like, I'm a big advocate for, I'm a big believer in manifestation. And I actually don't think it's a woo-woo thing at all. I, everything that I've created in my life has been through manifestation. But it's more so like being intentional, going after the things that I want and keep reminding myself about what it is that I want. And yeah, I think that you saying, yet the whole vision thing just reminded me of that. Just having, I think, if you can just have that in mind all the time, you'll find your behavior, your actions will always echo that then, you know? - Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And what, I'd love if you could share some of the things that you've done to tap into that intuition, to tap into the things that you want to manifest in your life and like that word manifests. I mean, it's become such a woo-woo word, but like, what does manifest mean? It means bring something into reality. So like, what do I want to bring into reality? What, and then what actions or behaviors do I need to do in order to bring that into it? So I wonder if you could, 'cause I'm guessing, it does take work to kind of uncover that in ourselves. So could you just describe a bit of some of the things that you've done? - I think for me, like getting still and, you know, allowing kind of quietness into your life. So as you can actually give your brain space to hear the things that you actually want. So getting still, spending time in solitude, whatever it is that you do, whether it's journaling or spending time and going for walks and nature without your headphones, these are all things that have worked for me in terms of listening to myself. And then once I actually get clear, so once I actually get clear on what I want, like I'm a very practical person and I know my friends always like me, but like once I get something into my head, I have to make it happen, like I have to do it. And I don't tend to overthink things, which mostly has served me well. Sometimes they can get me into trouble 'cause I'll just act without thinking too much about it. But for the most part, if I think of like my goals and my career and things, like when I had the idea that I wanted to start a podcast, it was done in my head, like there was no, it was done. I started ringing people and I just started to make it happen. So for me, the hard part is actually figuring out what you want. That's the hard part for me 'cause being still and doing all these things doesn't come naturally to me. I'm kind of a very action-oriented person and I'm, yeah. So that's the difficult part for me. But once I figure out what it is that I want, it's just about like you said, showing up every day, taking those actions. And like, I've had things and the word manifesting, I don't really like the word because it has this negative connotation to it. But like, I've said I've wanted something and I know that I want it and I want to bring it into my life. I want it to happen. What I've learned is that it doesn't always happen straight away. And my natural instinct would be, I'd get frustrated and I'd be like, I want this thing now, like, why isn't it happening? But what I've learned about manifesting is or attracting things into your life is patience is like a really important skill because sometimes it's not like it's not meant to happen straight away. And that's happened for me a lot with jobs and relationships and different things. I thought I wanted one thing and then that thing didn't work out but then something better and more aligned came along. So it's just kind of trusting the process. And when things seem like they're not going the way that you want, often there's something better in the corner. - Yeah, and something I've experienced in my life and with a lot of the clients we work with is often what we think we want is not what's best for us. So allowing space for it to work out actually how it's best for us. - Yeah, and that's hard to accept sometimes. But I think it's just getting curious about okay, well, that happened. I'm a big believer that everything's gonna work as the way it's meant to work out. And sometimes it can be hard when things really aren't going my way and I'm facing pretty big challenges. But I think it's just reminding myself that everything will work out in the end. You just gotta stick with it. And like I said, nothing. Well, rarely in my life goes according to the exact plan that I think is gonna happen in my head. But if it did, I mean, that would be pretty boring, right? - And so on that team, as we kind of come towards the end of our conversation, what do you see for your future and your career-wise? - That's an interesting one. What do I see in the future? Like honestly, right now I'm pretty content with what's happening. Like, you know, long-term-wise I see myself building like a portfolio career where I'm doing lots of things I'm super passionate about. Right now, that's rise up, that's podcasting, and that's venture capital. And that's working really well. It's allowing me flexibility to do all these different things that I'm passionate about. And I love that like freedom is one of my values. It's really important to me. And so that flexibility comes into that as well. And I feel like I have freedom right now to do these different things, which makes me feel good. And so as long as I'm feeling that, I'm good. I'm sure it will evolve in time. As I said before, every couple of years, I get the urge to reinvent myself or do something new. So I'm not sure what that looks like, but right now I'm really enjoying the podcast. I wanna grow that. We just got our first sponsor this week, actually, which we announced. And so that's really exciting. So putting more energy and time into that and growing that is kind of where my focus is right now. - Amazing, amazing. And that's kind of like the theme of your last episode of the podcast you released about sometimes in our career going, oh, actually things are really good. And I'm not chasing the next thing. I'm actually enjoying all the things that I'm doing. - Yeah, that's actually, I forgot about that. But that's like typically I'm always chasing something. That next big goal, or, you know, and I don't know, right now I'm trying to focus on enjoying what's happening at the moment. I'm not like wishing that away and moving on to the next thing. So I guess it's just being more present and enjoying kind of what I've created so far. - Amazing. Well, I've certainly enjoyed every aspect of this conversation. So thank you very much. - Thank you, Brian. You too, it's been a pleasure. - So, Dad, what did you think of that conversation with Susan? - My thought was fantastic. I loved the authenticity. I loved the fact that both of you were learning about your stories together and sharing and realizing a has for both of you. I loved her energy. And it was interesting that this is the first time that she's been on the receiving end of a podcast that really came across well because you can see it's an unpalished story. And I mean that in the nicest sense in that it's authentic. She's not telling you a scripted story of, this is what I've done and it's all polished for you to hear the only divinear. I just loved it. I loved the authenticity. I loved the way that she follows her intuition and doesn't make any grand claims about having any spiritual insight into how to do that. It's just very normal. I had a feeling. I went with the feeling. You know, the start of the rise up and wanting to have that in her life and looking for it and not finding anything is the effect that I love. Courage is a big thing that came up for me during this. Courage of both of you to go traveling when you did, when you hit crossroads. And especially for her and it's not to denigrate your courage for her as a young woman to take off and head to South America and her all. She again, she makes nothing of that in her story as being a big grand thing to do, right? As a dad and a parent listening to it, I thought, wow, that's big and cool. So yeah, so loads came up for me listening to it. I thought it was great. And I loved how it interspersed with your story. And I could hear and see you come a little bit as well as you realize, oh my God, that's what I've kind of done. This is part of what's happened for me. Yeah. Yeah, like a lot of what you said there is similar to my reflections on the conversation as well. I mean, I've come across Susan through social media because I've seen what she's done with Rise Up, both the community that she's built for women in business, women entrepreneurs and also her podcast and been really impressed by the guests she's got on and the conversations that she has. And then when the conversation kind of unfolded, it was almost reassuring to hear someone has gone that I would look up to for certain things that she's done has gone through similar crossroads that I have. And that was in enjoying to like unpack and kind of relate to. And I think it's another example of when people are doing, like an example of ordinary people with extraordinary stories, generally people, well, people that are doing amazing things are human beings. And this podcast to me is a constant reminder of that because anybody that we're interviewing are doing amazing things. And then it's great to talk to them and realize that often they're just figuring things out like all of us. - Absolutely. Well, I thought what was brilliant about Susan and listening to her own podcast, she interviews a very similar way. It's almost a naive authenticity. And I don't mean that in any way to take from her brilliance and intelligence. I mean, it's like the way she explains, I've just done and asked people who I taught were great, just the same as you reached out to her. And I've noticed and witnessed you doing that over the last 18 months or so. And that courage to me is fantastic because very often that's the thing that gets in our way. You know, me as a person and also as humans is like, you know, a home way task or, you know, and a, or feeling that it would have to be in a grandiose way of some sort versus the, no, let's just chat and talk. And yeah, entrance really interesting to hear how she has built that community and how it has led her then into the VC world. And again, the core destruct for me is I ran a recruitment business for a number of years. So I know exactly the environment she's come from and the pace of it and, you know, the burnout that goes with that and the success that goes with that on lots of levels. So again, for someone in Susan's position of success at recruiting to turn around a walk away from it at a young age, you know, reminds me of Sally or my daughter, your sister, who was flying at a recruitment and just said, I'm winging this. Like I can keep doing this. Actually, the money is fantastic and everything, but I know I'm putting the foundation under me. I need other things and great insights, perhaps. - Yeah. And we spoke well in the conversation. Susan mentioned it. It's a bit of a theme recently with guests is people creating something that they needed themselves, that they would have liked themselves. And even in my position as a coach or a facilitator, I often note that it's something that I would have liked at certain stages of my career. It's that thing if we can be the person that our past selves would have liked to have had, you know? - Yeah, it's fabulous. And you see, the bigger stage of the world is full of those stories, you know, whether it's an art face or, you know, it's a shoe dog. You know, people believe this is the shoe dog being mighty. You know, well, that doesn't exist, so I'm gonna make it happen. And, but it's brilliant when it's on a local and not so international a stage when you hear it from the like to you, when you hear it from the likes of Susan, who are doing it and getting out there and doing it for themselves. - Yeah. - No, for you. So it brought up for me, listening to the product for me, how often I hear people put labels on things like, you know, oh, they're a true entrepreneur or they're not an entrepreneur. What I thought was absolutely fantastic about listening to that young woman as a leader is that she doesn't class herself as anything, never put herself out to be an entrepreneur. And yet there she is setting up a podcast. There she is bringing VCs that are bringing businesses out to New York to help them raise money. You know, I know people who are stuck on labels and would be challenged in labeling her an entrepreneur, you know, like bullshit. So, so that's what that brought up for me listening to it as well as the brilliance, the freshness of it, the courage again, as I have said already, I just thought she was great. I thought you were great in the chat. And I think people will get a lot of it. - When you say the bullshit, but what can you just elaborate on that a little bit? 'Cause I think it's interesting. - People put labels on things that say, you know, or you've got to have achieved this to be an entrepreneur or you've got to have this kind of a mindset or you've got to be at this. Listening to the two of you speaking, both of you have started and done things, but there's the circle sessions with you and spoken word, whether it's your own coaching business in Susan's case, setting up her podcast, setting up the rise forum where she knows people coming together. She's bringing leaders together, interviewing leaders. You know, that's, that was born I would have a desire to do something. It wasn't coming from like, oh, and I had stalls when I was three and I was selling this and I was making investments attain. And, you know, I turned my communion money into like a million dollar, like, it's, you know, someone who hasn't labeled themselves. That's what I thought was brilliant. - Yeah, there's a genuineness to this is something I saw that there was a need for that I needed myself and I went and created it and not this kind of story that sometimes propagated like, oh, I was always this. It's like, no, I just created something at the time that was needed. - Absolutely. - And I thought, I thought it would be exemplified that brilliantly. So, so it was lovely, lovely, great conversation, great energy, two young leaders gone at it out into the world. I was just, yeah, well done, well done. - Well, thanks for that. And it's, I always love to hear your insights and things that came up for you and your reflections on the conversation. And yeah, thanks everybody for listening. Hope you got something out of it. Please let us know on social media, send us a message and you'll hear from us next week. (upbeat music) - Well, there you have it. Thank you for listening to this week's episode of the essential training podcast with me, Brian Kingston and my dad, Ian Kingston. As dad says, hope it brought something up for you and gave you a chance to reflect on your own work and your own life. We'll see you again next Thursday. And as always, we're open to any feedback or suggestions you might have, what you liked about us, what you think could be better, maybe some suggestions for guests, suggestions for topics as well. So thanks for listening and we will see you or you'll hear us next week. [BLANK_AUDIO]