The Essential Training Podcast
Ep 33 - Grammy-nominated singer Eabha McMahon
What are ways that we can more authentically connect with our inner wisdom?
How can live performances facilitate healing and insights for the audience and for the performer?
What's the relationship with our intuition and our ability to hold space for others?
These are all questions we explore this week in our conversation with Éabha McMahon. Éabha has garnered world attention for her stunning, unique voice, firstly as part of Anúna, the internationally renowned Irish Choral group and then as principal vocalist with the globally successful Irish music collective, Celtic Woman with whom she recorded five albums, filmed three television specials and performed sell out concerts in 20 countries across 6 continents. She has been number one on both Billboard’s World Music Chart and Classical Chart and has received her first Grammy nomination.
It was an absolute joy speaking with Éabha, we touched on so many topics that are close to my heart, and on the work we do at Essential Training. Namely, encouraging and facilitating conscious communication, high performance, authenticity and genuine passion and drive. We spoke about The Circle Sessions, SEANCHOÍCHE, Éabha's journey into motherhood and her relationship with creativity and her own intuition.
We spoke about the Celtic World Forum that Eabha is hosting in 2 weeks time in north Dublin, Ireland. It's second annual 3-Day, Celtic World Forum comprising a mix of talks, panels, workshops and song circles all connected to the world of Irish Traditional. Folk and Celtic Music, followed each evening by specially curated concerts featuring the very best in Celtic talent.
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As always, thanks for Fad Saoil Saunas for making this episode possible and for supporting us on our podcast journey! https://fadsaoilsaunas.ie/
Check us out at essentialtraining.ie, Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/essentialtraining
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We hope you enjoyed! Speak soon!
Brian and Ian
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- Broadcast on:
- 28 Aug 2024
- Audio Format:
- other
(upbeat music) - Hello and welcome to the essential training podcast with me, Brian Kingston, and my dad, Ian Kingston. In this space and through our work, we get to chat with ordinary people who have extraordinary stories. - Our hope is that through listening to these conversations, we get to reflect on the stories we tell ourselves and unlock more of our own potential. - Thanks for listening and we hope you enjoy. (upbeat music) - This episode is brought to you by Fad Sale Saunas. Fad Sale is the Irish for long life and they were Ireland's first commercial Saunas service set up in 2019. Their mission is to communicate, educate, inspire people on the benefits of Sauna and coal bathing. And their vision is to enhance the wellbeing of the people of Ireland and further afield and to give people more healthy lifestyle choices. They have locations in Greystones, Galway, and Clantar Rugby Club in Ireland. And I am a regular user of the Sauna. I go down once or twice a week. They're only down the road from us. And they have set up an amazing community there where you've got the Sauna, you've got Rise of the Cove Coffee, right in the midst of Tiglin, which is Ireland's oldest addiction treatment center clinic. So you've got a real mix of people and mindsets. And I go down there, I spend 50 minutes in the Sauna, step outside, cool down, go back for another 15 minutes. And then I usually pop down to the sea, spend a couple of minutes in the sea, depending on how brave I feel that day. And afterwards, I always feel rejuvenated, energized. And sometimes I'll pop in for a coffee at Rise of the Cove. And I just love bumping into people down there and there's an amazing community. And Steve says this and I felt it as well. It's kind of like the vibe of a pub without alcohol. You go down with friends, you can go down alone, you can bump into people, you can stay on your own and it's just this amazing vibe and amazing community of people. So we're so happy to be sponsored by FODSail and long may it last. And we're excited to see where this partnership goes. So thanks Steve and your team for FODSail Saunas for sponsoring the podcast and go check them out on their Instagram or on their website. This week, I sat down with Grammy-nominated recording artist and a good friend of mine, Ava McMam. Ava has performed cello concerts in 20 countries across six continents with Irish choral group Anuna and the Irish music collective Celtic Woman. And last year, for the first year, she set up and ran the Celtic World Forum, which is happening again in two weeks, which was the catalyst for this conversation. And Ava gets to explain a bit about where and when that is, it's on the 6th of September, 2024. It's on for three or four days. There's a discount code in the episode if you listen and in the show notes for anybody that's around North Dublin at that time. But the conversation is so much more than that. We discuss the power of music, the power of vulnerability in creative arts. We talk about entrepreneurship and moving from being in a recording group to a solo artist. We talk about the feeling of burnout. Ava characterizes it brilliantly when your soul gets tired or when your soul gets sad. What do you do? And we talk about Ava's passion for breaking down the barrier between the artist and audience, which is something I'm very passionate about. Both in the work that we do in facilitation, in creating safe authentic spaces where people can show up as themselves, we really find that that allows for deeper human connections and more productive, fulfilling environments, both in organizations in the workplace and also in creativity. And it's something I'm passionate about since starting The Circle Sessions, a spoken word over Mike Knight that's been going for 10 years in Ireland. So we cover lots of ground here and I think you're gonna get lots out of this conversation. And Ava speaks really eloquently and honestly and openly about her experience of motherhood and creativity. So without further ado, here's our conversation this week with Ava McMarr. - Okay, Ava, here we are. It is so great to have you on the Essential Training Podcast. How you doing? - And good, thank you so much for having me on. I love this, it's great. I've been following for a while, so I actually feel really privileged to be here on the podcast. I've gotten some serious kind of nuggets of knowledge and wisdom from following us and especially on Instagram and stuff. I think you guys are kind of sharing really interesting stuff. So very delighted to be asked, thank you. - That's great to hear, thanks. And yeah, shout out to Zach, our video guy and kind of Gen Z's genius who was, he was like, look, your podcast is great, but I just watch clips online. That's where I see my content and he was like, I could make it for you. So Zach was really the genius behind that and we were able to just go with it. And yeah, it's definitely expanded the reach of what we do and people don't, you know, people love listening to the long conversations, but if they just wanna snip it, they can get that as well. So I'm delighted to hear. And yeah, it's an absolute honor and a pleasure for us to have you on. I mean, it's funny because you're an international recording, grammy nominated artist and you're also a very long-term friend of mine. So it's just a class synchronously to have you on. And I think that feels like a natural place to start. How this happened is you have your Celtic World Forum next week and I think that might be a good place to start because I think from explaining what that is, we can kind of jump off to your music career. So maybe if you could just tell us a little bit about what's happening next week. - Yeah, so yeah, thank you. Next week we're hosting the second annual Celtic World Forum in the Irish Institute of Music and Song in Bell-Briggan and it's a three-day festival celebrating our Celtic music and culture. And it's something that was set up from years of me being on the road as an artist and touring all over the place and meeting different people and like yourself, loving, listening to people's stories and realizing how music can just connect people from all over the world. Like literally no matter how far I used to travel, like we went to South Korea at one point and I just couldn't believe I got up and sang like an unaccompanied channel song, you know, over there and the connection I felt there. And I was like, I'm so far away from home but there's something about this that just it's so innate in all of us. And it was just sort of feeling of I need to at some point create something where we can gather as a community and celebrate this storytelling and our music and our songs and the things that make us so, you know, ourselves and I think in a world where we're so busy and life is just, you know, I feel we're getting further and further away from humanity and, you know, reconnecting with something like this. Like a three day festival where you come, it's immersive, you can listen to talks, you can take part in workshops, you were there last year so you know there's a song circle every day where we sit around and you can sing or you can read a poem or you can tell a story like you did like a chanakie type of thing. And then every night we have a concert which brings all of these huge artists from, you know, that people would know from all over the world but also emerging artists all together on one stage which is equally as much of a treat for us as artists as it is for the people coming over to see us or coming to attend because a lot of the time as an artist you work alone. And that's the big thing like, especially after COVID you spend so much time creating and even when you're working up to tour a lot of people rehearse on their own and then you might meet up for three days before the tour and rehearse the things in person that you've been rehearsing alone for months, you know. So this kind of forum allows all these artists that have known each other and admired each other for years to come together under one roof and to collaborate, to play music together, to network with each other and then people can attend and actually listen to the artists and it kind of takes away that the wall between the listener and the artist and it just makes us all people and we all just connect so deeply. And last year, genuinely three of the most joyful days I've had. I thought it was just, it exceeded everything I could have imagined and it came from totally something that I felt I needed as a person. And I think that's when no more than yourself, like, you know, if you believe in something and you can see that it's something you would have wanted growing up or would have wanted as a, you know, for me, like growing up listening to different artists, I would have loved to play for I could ask them questions or listen to them talk about their story. Like, how did you become, how did you learn to sing that song? Like, who taught you? Like, where did you learn that Irish song? How did you find out how to speak it? Like, where, what's the resources? You know, and I used to write to different artists when I was like a teen and they would never write back because it was like on email or like on their fan page or, you know, there's nothing like this where you could, you know, just kind of get stuck in and then see them all, all together on kind of one stage. So that's happening next week. The forum is kind of in the daytime, which I mentioned as the talks and then the nighttime is the concerts and they're kind of, you can go to one or the other. You don't have to go to the whole thing, you know. And the concerts in the evening are being held in the lark, which is the kind of brand new concert hall there in Balbrigen and just one building of the year for how beautiful it is architecturally. So there's loads to kind of look forward to. But I suppose the why behind it is just my need and want for people to connect through music. And it just brings out a beautiful side of people. And I've seen that over and over again. - God, you explained it really well and there's lots there. There's lots there that comes off from me. I mean, the first thing is, you know, you mentioned, it feels like we're getting further and further away from ourselves. And you also mentioned how story and song and connecting with those things that are very ancient make us more of who we are. And, you know, since COVID, what we've seen in a lot of the companies that we work in is, okay, no, you know, we're all doing hybrid work and we're collaborating online and in person. In general, there's this feeling, it's reinforced the power of being together in person, feeling the vibe from somebody, seeing body language, hearing someone's tone of voice, just being in the same room and, you know, there's kind of an analogy there with the work that we do in companies in, when you get people in a room there's something special that happens. And I've seen that I saw that last year in attending the event. The other thing that comes up for me is breaking down the wall between the artist and the listener. That's something that is really special. And I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit more about that. - Yeah, so I think, like, again, from years of spending time singing in different groups and feeling some groups very open to fully sharing my soul as a singer and then other groups where you're kind of told not to do that, you know, like you are almost, you're playing a role. And so I've seen kind of all sides of the spectrum in terms of breaking down that wall, but what I really kind of feel that is so important is if you're standing up on stage and you can't feel anything, then you're not doing it right. Like there's something not happening because all we are is energy. We're just bouncing one bit of energy over to somebody else. And the only reason a singer or a musician playing an instrument can hit you quicker is because the vibration is faster, but like it's the exact same as me and you're speaking to each other now. It's just, you know, when you're listening to a singer and if you don't feel anything, it's probably because they're also not feeling it. They're just, they're doing it by rote or they're, you know, sometimes it can come down to nerves where you just get it out, get it out, don't sing it. But I think to break down the barrier between the artist and the listener, it equally is healing for the artist as it is for the person who's attending. Like the artist also needs that so much. And I saw that so much last year. You've these artists that are a Grammy award winning, you know, people that have gone all over the world, literally with the biggest shows in the world. And some of them came to me after the second show, not the first show because I think on the first show was our first night doing it, everyone was a bit, the second show, somebody came off the stage and they had been, you know, the lead of many shows for over a decade. And they came off and said, that was one of the most exhilarating feelings of my life because I felt every step, I felt every note, I felt everything. It was electrifying. I felt the audience. I felt them and I know they felt me. And the place erupted after this particular performance. And it's just amazing how like we all need it. There's nobody that does something. Like you named the biggest rock star in the world. Like their favorite performances are actually usually the smaller venues when they can see, smell, hear the people that they're performing to, you know. - Yeah, there's such an intimacy there. And, you know, part of me doesn't want to just be making analogies to work all the time, but it's really like what we do. I mean, as a coach or as a facilitator, we're often facilitating insights and transformation and, you know, healing for people and for teams. And, but it's so healing and fulfilling for us as well. I mean, the other day when someone says, I really enjoy that I got this new perspective and I never looked at something like this. And they said to me, God, I was like feeling really shitty the day. And I just looked at the journaling exercise you gave me about my ideal future. And it lit me up inside because I felt I had something to work towards. And that did something massively for me. I've been journaling since because I saw the impact that it had on my client. And I said, well, I better practice what I preach. And so, you know, there's such a strong analogy there between connecting to the authenticity of what you're doing and the mutually beneficial kind of relationship between artist, audience member, coach, facilitator. And yeah, I mean, from doing the circle sessions years ago, the open mic night that it's still going 10 years on and you got to perform at it a few times or we got to experience you performing at it a few times. I remember you saying to me how lovely it was. And the idea was very similar to what you're saying. Like, if anybody has ever been in a pub and someone in the corner, an old man or old woman and everyone is quiet and they sing this incredibly like ancient like song, there's something so special about that. And I think that's what I was looking to recreate with the circle sessions. And that's what I see. Yeah, and that's what I see you recreating with this is because a lot of these people, you know, are international artists, you know, like Celtic woman, recording all over the world to thousands of people. And then they get to and people get to see them up close and personal and get to chat to them afterwards. And yeah, it's pretty special. Well, I remember with the circle sessions coming out of the first one. And I think I said to you, I was like, you're on something really special here. Like, this is not a normal session. This is not, you know, and I like it was in Bray when I kind of went to, I know it moved around that's in the entire night. Still going now, isn't it huge? Yeah, international art and Monday nights, yeah. Yeah, but like every, was it a Thursday night? So I think it was a Thursday night. Well, it was Tuesday, 'cause we were gonna call it Circular Tuesdays and it's got a terrible name. So we changed the circle sessions. Yeah, I've just laxed here. So I was like, it's either Tuesday or Thursday. It's one of them. I knew it was a weekday because it wasn't the weekends. It wasn't like the easiest thing to go to. It wasn't like, you know, it's almost Saturday night. So I'm gonna go, it was like a Tuesday night and people still showed up and sat around. And I think the thing was like the mutual respect of listening. And also you didn't know what anybody in that room did. And we're all different age groups. Some people like a really high-powered jobs. Other people were students. Other people were literally like, I can't actually pay the two-year-olds set into this, you know. And then that was never a problem. It was like only if you can. It was just a really beautiful, again, like just breaking it down to humanity. And like that's why people loved it so much is 'cause we are kind of starved of it. It's like that, you know, human connection where we sit in respect of one another and listen. And also like appreciate when something beautiful is sung or is spoken. And I still like, honestly, that stands out to me. I think everything that we end up doing in our lives is our stepping stones of what happened before. And I really do think the circus sessions had a huge impact on me. And like even when we do the song circle as part of the foreignness, it's not like anyone can just sing something and we don't sit in a circle or anything but, it's the same idea of that thing of like, we listen to each other. Nobody's talking over each other, which is kind of different to a typical session in a bar, you know, where people are drinking and singing. This is like actually similar that you just sit and actually listen and take that time to just appreciate another human being's, you know, whatever they want to give you, whether it's a home or a song or a dance or whatever. - Yeah, we're all there for that. We're not there to have drinks and catch up. I mean, that can happen. But when someone's performing, that's what we're all there for. So this is a respect. - Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's something that massively inspired me. And I think the other part of the forum, like every part of the forum, none of it is, okay, this is an idea I just came up with overnight and we're doing this. It was all lived experiences. You know, my years of touring and seeing a lack of connection in some scenarios is what made me be like, no, like that's not right for me. I know that's not right. I know what is right. And so that's why I know when I'm doing a certain type of workshop in the forum, it's going to work because I have seen it work and I've seen it done the opposite way in it not work, you know, same with this song circle. And even the same with the shows, the collaboration element is so interesting 'cause you're seeing a wildness in the musicians, whereas normally we kind of go on tour and you learn your songs off of your heart and you know your setlist. Whereas this is, okay, who here knows Nielsen law, we're all going to get on stage together and you're going to have Marie Nesbuss who played with Celtic Woman, River Dance, Lord of the Dance. And James, do you want to dance too? And you're from, okay, you've just done 10 years with Mike Flatley, that's cool. You'll do that too. Tara Hailey, who's like, you know, world renowned Piper and then we're going to have Colum Farley's come over from the States who've never played together. And then you just say, let's go. And that's why there was just like fire on the stage. Because even the people on stage are going, oh my goodness, this is wild. This energy is palpable and when you have that in any scenario, whether it's the work you're doing, I'm sure it's in companies or whether it's a musician, if that energy is palpable like that, it's going to do well. You know, it's going to work. So yeah, yeah. - I remember you saying that when you came off the stage or one of the performances last year. I mean, you were running the whole thing, you were in Celtic Woman and you were coming off the stage, you know, to the audience, kind of almost shaking, being like, I'm so honored, I got to sing with that person. - Yeah, exactly, yeah. - And that was class to see. And I remember going to see when I was in Canada, going to see the perform in Celtic Woman and amazed by the thousands of people in the audience. And I'd love, if you could, give us a sense of what pouring with Celtic Woman was like. - Yeah, so I mean, I think like I said before with the stepping stones, I think everything you do in your life is not ever a waste or not ever something that you shouldn't have done. I really, no matter how good, bad and different, you know, I think there's so much that I learned from touring with Celtic Woman. I toured with Anuna before that and they were like chalk and cheese, like, you know, Anuna was all about kind of this body of sound. You were part of a wave of sound. Your voice was literally not a single voice. Even when you were singing solo, you were part of this live, incredibly live, like I was saying, that palpable energy body of sound that was unaccompanied. So you keep each other in tune and we toured all over the place with them. And I did and that was such an amazing learning experience. I will get to Celtic Woman, but the reason that was an amazing learning experience was that I learned that I had to lean on another person as much as I could depend on my own voice. I had to lean on the person beside me. There was absolutely no sense of like, well, I'm singing in tune, so everything's gonna be okay. It was like, no, no, if the whole ship is not together, we are going down fast, you know, like there was no bells and whistles, no drone, nothing, just voices, keeping the whole thing going. And we would do like, you know, two-hour concerts in that capacity. That was magical for me. For me, that's something that like, I still, to this day, like a goosebumps, when I think about that. And then doing a solo, like you call it a solo, but I never called myself a soloist because I was literally nothing without the complete body of sound around me. And the solo was really just another line, you know, added on to the overall sound. So that was like a really beautiful experience of sharing with other people and sharing in art and sharing in sound and then feeling that feeling when I looked into the audience and them not really understanding how that sound was really happening, you know? And again, like I said, the vibration, like me, song and anything that comes out of an instrument or your voice is just like a faster vibration. And so feeling that feeling and watching other people trying to compute that usually turns into emotion or like, you know, but it's a real feeling of camaraderie with the whole auditorium. So that was wild to me. That was, to me, they are just the most amazing group. You should look them up, Anuna, if you haven't heard of them. They were the original Riverdance choir in the revisions. Then I went on to sing with Celtic Woman, which, I'm sorry, do you want to? - Hold on a second. I mean, I mean, there's so much you said there. I mean, first of all, I'm a massive fan of Anuna and I'm a massive fan of like some of their YouTube videos. I mean, so much you said there. I mean, you couldn't be a Mayfainer in that environment for any of our international listeners. Mayfane kind of means me, myself, doesn't it, or like myself? And like, when someone's a Mayfainer, they're all out for number one. And you couldn't be a Mayfainer in that environment. Could you? - No, absolutely not. It's like, if you're a Mayfainer, then you're Mayfainering your way out of the group, like there's an issue you know of your own friends, like. And Michael McGlinn, who is the kind of founder and he still is the kind of, he's still towards and he's the musical director. He writes the music. It's like, his big thing was just, you know, don't, even when you're singing a solo, there was a way that he said it, you know, he used to do this analogy of a cash licking itself, you know, the way cats sit and they'll lick their arms. (laughing) He's like, yeah, and I'm like, oh! He'd be like, don't be that person when you're singing. That's just sitting there going, oh, God, listen to me. It shouldn't be that. Like, it's not that it should or shouldn't be a certain way, but to really, like, the reason that was so beautiful and you know, is that you didn't even know what you looked like you didn't even know what your voice was doing. You were just constantly part of this ship and it was just a really beautiful experience. - I know, like, when I, like, I've 10 years performing spoken word poetry and I, you know, when someone goes up and when it's self-indulgent. - Yes. - And like, I want to be encouraging to everybody who's expressing themselves and that was a big part of hosting for so many years and that's a, it's a big, it forms my work now in companies because I'm going in there believing that everybody has the answers that they need. They have the tools within them. It's our job just to help them see those tools, but when someone gets up on stage and for whatever reason, it's a self-indulgent performance. It just makes my body cringe and I don't blame the person for that either, but there's someone, something along the way has led them to that direction where you don't feel that authenticity and it's palpable. - It is, like, and also we have to remember that, but we all have this, like, huge ability to read. Like, we're all, we're all essentially psychics, but we don't allow ourselves to go there and I don't mean psychics as in, like, telling this future, but we're so intuitive. People are, you know, like, I have two little babies now and they inspire me so much. I will get back to the Celtic woman thing, by the way, I have two little babies and two under two and a half and I know them more than I know anyone in this world and neither of them can say any, they can't talk. Like, well, one of them has just started talking now, but, like, before she could speak, I knew everything that I couldn't understand everything. I knew if she felt sick, I knew if she felt well, I knew if she felt anxious, she didn't have to talk to me. We don't like there's so much about our energy when it comes to performance. Even when you come to, like, you speak to a lot of people in business, maybe in tech. Like, you know, if you go into a room and you say, I'm a confident person and I have done all this stuff and I'm great and you don't believe it yourself, like, the person just knows. Like, they don't, it doesn't matter really what you say, you know, and it's the same when you perform and that's why I enjoy being around artists who, first of all, aren't afraid to fail, aren't afraid to, you know, go for something, release something, make a mistake. Like, and that are just vulnerable in what they're doing, that they're kind of always nearly putting themselves out there a little bit and trying something new instead of just repeating the same thing over and over again because they know it works, you know, that way. Like, obviously there's a beauty in that as well for certain types of performance, but my, my, like, favorite type of art and music is the vulnerable, like, the vulnerable art that the art where we were just getting up and you're just telling the truth, like, you know, and just being, trying to be as honest as you can with whatever you're trying to put across, whether it's a song or, you know, and you ask me about "Caldic Woman" and that's, it's all getting to that point, you know, that then I went and I was asked to be part of that group, which, you know, I had to kind of listen to growing up and I always really admired the group and they were playing these huge, you know, auditoriums and, and, and arenas. Like, when I first joined, my very first tour was the Sydney Arena and I was absolutely terrified. Like, I can't explain the terror. I'll never be able to understand how I ended up there because I got like a Facebook message being like, would you come in and audition and I sang a Shannos song? I think I tried to talk them out of it 'cause I was so scared. I was like, look, there are so many people that can dance and sing everything. I don't do that. I can sing my eyes closed. I can, you know, typical Irish, but like talking myself down, you know? And then I left that interview and I wrote them an email saying, actually, do you know what? I think I am able for this. And I'm, you know, if you, if you think I'm any cosmet, but I'm told you I'm not, you know? But it was really like an important thing for me to actually back myself in that moment, even if I felt if they never read it or whatever. And then they got on to me saying, well, yeah, well, when would you like to start? And the first gig, yeah, was the Sydney Arena and I had to dance and sing at the same time. And then very shortly after that, we did our first TV special and that got Grammy nominated. It was an album called Destiny. And then it was very quick. Like after that we didn't, because of that, we did another TV special, which was sort of John Sten Castle. And I actually got to write music for that. So that was like an incredible, that was incredible for me because I wasn't so good at singing the songs. I was told to sing. Like I find that very difficult because again, I felt that there's a lack of like being genuine. And especially with the song, I wasn't like mad about it. I felt like you could see it in me. And I started to show in my performance and in how it felt on tour. Like I had some years that were amazing during that time. It was five years doing world tours one after another. Some of them were absolutely amazing and electrifying. Obviously going to the Grammys is unbelievable. That was all the beginning. The middle was really exciting because I was starting to write some music for the group. And then towards the end, I felt myself kind of slowly but surely just getting a little bit tired. And I had to like really be honest with myself and ask myself like, why am I still doing this? Why am I doing it? And what am I going to learn from having done it, you know? And even though I found the last year probably quite difficult because it was long and there was a lot of shows. And I just, I felt like maybe there was more in me. Like I was ready for the next thing. And I think that's a big thing we all have is that you feel these waves of when you know it's time to leave, you know it's time to move on to the next thing. It's not that there's anything wrong with the thing you're in but you have almost done everything that you feel creatively, you can do and that you've got so much out of it. But there's something more on the horizon and you're saying to yourself, no, no, no, but I won't jump now. No, no, no, everything's so good. Why would I do that? But it was starting to wear me down that feeling. And so I did leave in 2019 before the pandemic happened. And I was so scared because I had no job lined up afterwards. I, you know, people were saying like, are you mad? Like you're literally about to go on another tour. There's another, this. And I was like, there's always going to be another TV special. There's always going to be another tour. They're an amazing group that have been touring for 20 years. They're still touring now. Like, you know, but I felt in me there was something that I, more that I had to do. And one of them was definitely that I wanted to set up something that I felt everything I'd learned along the way I wanted to put into one project, which is what I'm hopefully about to do again next week. And the other thing is I, and I find this sometimes hard to talk about, but like, you know, becoming a mother. And I remember being told in certain environments along the way, like in the 10 years that I toured or longer. You know, oh, well, when you become a mom in the music industry, like it gets very difficult and there's no place for, there's no place for really motherhood in the music industry. And I was told that a lot of times like, and it used to really stress me out. I remember meeting a friend on the beach and in Kline and like crying to her thing. Like, I have to choose one or the other. Like, I really want to be a mom, but I also really want to continue with music. And I have been told this, you know, idea from different places, you know, that there's really not room for both. And I think I just made it like my mission for all the other women. And it's not just women because it's men too that go off and have families. And they also get told, you know, well, you know, once you have a family, it gets very difficult to leave and all that kind of stuff. But I basically one of the other huge things behind this new kind of festival and Celtic world as a brand is that there are no limits to what you can do as a person, whether you're a parent, whether you're not a parent, you know, whether like what age you are, whether that's young or if you're older, like the world is your oyster as an artist. And all that matters is what you're putting out there into the world and you should never be held back by the things that society sometimes tells you, will hold you back. - It's easy though, isn't it? - Yeah. (laughing) I, you know, it's certainly not easy. There's, and I know I hear you tell your story now and it sounds like all the dots are connected and hindsight, but I can imagine in those moments like walking on the beach with your friend or being told that whatever feeling in the pity or stomach that hit you when you were told that, you know, you basically can't be a mother if you wanna keep doing this. I can imagine that those were difficult and, and I've certainly felt those feelings of my soul getting tired. I think that was an absolutely brilliant characterization of something that was the best thing ever for a couple of years. And then it's not anymore. And I might, is there something wrong with me? Is there something wrong with it? Is there something wrong with them? Is there something wrong with the world? And your explanation has done a lot for me there and saying, yeah, my soul got tired. And I just have realized what story I'm gonna tell next Thursday. Oh, yay. (laughing) Brilliant. - Because that's something I wanna ask you. You know, for anyone listening to this and their soul is being tired, what would you say to them? - Oh, and like, you know, I Googled that question so many times, like I remember being like in Texas, somewhere in Texas, out in the car park Googling desperately, what can I do for myself? I'm literally exhausted every part of me, not just my body, my mind, my voice, you know, and I couldn't find any answers. They were like, go for a walk. I was like, it's not working. It's not working. - You go to Google that. (laughing) I think for everything. - Oh, no, like, I think the big thing is if you're so less tired, I think you really have to just write down on a piece of paper, why? And be really honest, even if everything in your life is going perfectly well, if your Instagram feed looks like you are living the absolute dream, but you're not, clearly, 'cause if you're so less tired, you're actually not. Write down a list of the things that you're not getting anymore, but used to make you happy, that it aren't making you happy anymore, you know, or sorry, not that write down a list of things like, so for me, when I was really honest with myself, I was really, really homesick at times. I felt like I, like, my soul as a singer, I felt like I wasn't able to say what I wanted to say, and that's a big thing, you know, and that goes across the board. Like, I couldn't say what I wanted to say at all times. And I wasn't prioritizing myself, even though it looked like I was on the exterior, I just, everything looked really glam, but I actually wasn't getting enough sleep. I probably wasn't nourishing myself, you know, the way that I should've been. And I think that's one thing that we just all should do, even if you don't get to the point of yourself being really tired, because we all do it, it's like not prioritizing these things that are so important, which is your well-being, like, and really look into that, look at it and say, like, was, where can I improve on my, you know, mental and physical and, you know, mindful hygiene? Like, how can I make all of that healthier to, and I think if you do that in the early stages of whatever job you're doing, you're less likely to get to burnout, you know. Burnout is something that is like, you know, it's not talked about a lot either, you know, and I think I probably did get burned out. And then once I took the break, the interesting thing about, you know, you're still being tired as it doesn't just quickly bounce back, like, you know, it takes time and you have to really, like, sit in it and just go, okay, like, I really have to just let my body and my mind and myself heal a bit here, but can I tell you one thing? The fact that I went through that, it has made everything I do now just so much more powerful. It's like giving me a turbo, compared to somebody else that maybe would try and do something like the call to grow for him. Like, I feel like because I felt all that spectrum of emotion and having to, like, let's say, like, being that level of exhausted and then still getting up on stage and having to perform to a massive audience, like, you know, that you just, you know, no amount of reading or learning from a college and I think all that's great too, but it's, like, lived resilience and I think, if anyone is going through burnout right now, I think the big thing is to question, like, what are you doing right now that's causing that burnout? Really considering changing what you're doing. Like, and I know that that's going to be a topic that people are going to be like, oh, I wouldn't agree with that now. You can get therapy and you get an eye group. I think therapy is amazing, so for therapy. But I think it's like, if something is really not aligning with your morals and your values, then you have to look at why that is and move, even if to everyone else, it doesn't seem like the right choice, you know, and then go and do what it is. Your heart is, like, literally screaming at you to do, because most of us, that's what it is. Our hearts are screaming at us and we don't listen. And then we both love this lady called Rhonda, who is a spiritual, amazing woman. She doesn't even label herself, which is why I love her so much, but she's just this incredible woman. And I remember going to her before, this was like, throughout the years of touring, this isn't just in the five years of counting woman, this is at other times with other groups, because I toured with a lot of different groups and at different stages, I felt that feeling of the cell being tired and moving, you know. But I remember at one point, at some point in that time, going to her saying, like, I just feel, I don't feel right going on this, I don't know what's going on, but I don't, I don't, something doesn't feel right. And she said, well, Ava, when your head won't listen, your body will tell you. So, just warning you. And I was like, what? And then that entire time that I was away, I had this like ear inflammation that wouldn't go away in her ear, would not go away, it literally handed me, it did not go away. When I came home, I went and had to get like a scan and everything, and they were like, yeah, there was like inflammation, but it was basically just my body being like, we're now hitting the places that you need to do your job. Not your legs, not your arms, I need my ears and my voice, so the two things. And it was like hammering at my ear, you know. So I just found that really interesting that like my head wasn't listening, I was going, no, everything's great, everything's great, keep going. So it showed up in my body then, you know. And it's one thing I feel now, it's the most free I've ever felt in like my body, my mind and I think being a mother has made me feel this sense of self that I've never ever experienced before. And I think it was something I have always wanted. And I think for years, I was like searching for the neck, the thing, what is the thing? You know, why am I, like I'm so ambitious, I need to go and I need to do this and I need to get on that. And then becoming a mother just strips all of that away. And you literally are just laid bare and then whatever comes out of like the stuff that has come out of becoming a mother creatively has just been so amazing, like more amazing than anything I've ever felt. So yeah, I think it's just all stepping stones, isn't it? Like there's no happy, there's no happy ending. It's just all one thing leads to the next. - Yeah, Shane Messini has a great quote that along the lines of each point in life, I thought was a destination, but it was a stepping stone. - Yeah, oh yeah, there you go, yeah. - And it's beautiful. And I think it's what you're saying. Motherhood and creativity. Do you mind talking about that a little bit? - Yeah, I think initially giving birth, I think anything traumatic that happens in a person's life. And I don't mean it to be like traumatic in the sense of it being horrifically bad or, you know, but something that happens to your body or your mind where there is a sense of trauma. Initially, I think for a lot of creative people, it's like everything shuts down and goes quiet, you know, for a time afterwards. And then once the body and the mind have time to make sense of what's happened, beautiful things come out of that. And even if they don't sound beautiful written down or they don't like to read them out, sense maybe sad to the listener, but it's so cathartic and so it gets to like the absolute inner workings of your soul because it's come from that place of total vulnerability. And like for me, giving birth was one of the most incredible things that's ever happened in my life. So anyone that was pregnant listening, going, "Oh, she's calling it traumatic." I don't mean like that, but you literally birth another human being out of your body. It is mind-blowingly amazing and like just what is, you know, it's magical, but it also is a huge shift in your life as a one person on their own to now being, you know, a mother with a baby that you've defined and the actual physical part of giving birth and how that affects your body, you know, in terms of like, I don't mean like the physical aspect. I mean, the whole part of it, your soul, your spirit, everything. So for me, giving birth meant that afterwards I didn't feel creative for quite a while. I think I was just in absolute like, nearly fight or blight of like just survival. That's just, yeah, let's keep this little baby, you know, alive and do the feeds and honestly being the mother like has opened me up in a way. I don't even have words for us, which is kind of obvious now. I don't have words for us, but it's opened me up in a way that I will just, it's just for me, it's like what my life is all about now. I'm so grateful to be mum. And, but the creativity is only coming now and I had my first baby two and a half years ago and I'm only starting to feel the like, juices flowing of like, writing poetry down again and all my poetry feels completely different, like it's being written by a different person now, you know. I think now I'm coming from a place of total understanding and forgiveness of like anything that people have to offer. You know, when you see a little tiny baby and they're so innocent and there's literally, they can't fend for themselves. And you know that they're going to grow into people that we deal with every day. Some are lovely, some are obnoxious, some are ignorant, but it's all things that have just happened to them along the way and that they've learned to use as a defense mechanism. I see it already, like in, you know, in things that like even in a two year old, you know, if something happens that you say no to her and she sticks her tongue out to you. It's like a defense mechanism. It's like, I don't know the words to say, to the angry at you, so I'm going to stick my tongue out at you, you know, and it's that goes up like that teaches us. I just taught me so much about human beings in general and it's just giving me this whole new sense of forgiveness, understanding and it's coming out in my kind of music as well, that like just being really gentle with myself and others. Whereas before maybe I was trying to write songs that I thought, you know, well, that sounds catchy, that's radio friendly, that's this. I feel like motherhood has just cracked all that open, thrown it out the door and I kind of nearly don't recognise some of the stuff now, you know, from before. I had to explain that. OK, but well, I was going to ask if you have if you had written about it because, you know, when you're in that moment of words can't describe, I find poetry really helpful because I was only saying this to someone the other day down in the sauna and he's in addiction, recovery and we got talking and he shared with me a poem and I was just I was going to say it's the best poem I've ever heard, but when I'm hearing many poems, it feels like the best poem I've ever heard because someone's sharing something so vulnerable with you and in that moment of him sharing that poem and talking about it afterwards and, you know, what poetry does for me is there's no rules of poems. I mean, there are many rules, but all can be broken and you don't have to play by them at all and different just to like prose or like journaling. I often don't fully understand what I'm writing and poetry. It's like coming from somewhere else and afterwards it can make sense and maybe a year later then it makes sense why I wrote that. And the beauty is, is for the reader or the listener, it can have a totally different meaning and they'll pick up what they need to hear from the poem or the sauna. And so I'm delighted to hear that you're writing about that feeling because that's a very creative space to be in that speechless space I find. Yeah, that's lovely. Yeah, the speechless space. Like, and I think it's interesting because when we were like younger, like we've been friends since we were in school and I remember like from a very young age sending you like, oh, I just wrote this poetry, I just wrote this line here when like people were like, you know, but I always thought so comfortable and like doing that with, you know, with you. And even in, we have the Tea Group, which is like a group of friends that since we were 17 or something, I've met up for a cup of tea and it was never like pints. It was never, it was always like a cup of tea around using my family homes, kitchen table. That was kind of generally where I was. And we would just chat and catch up and sing and talk and share and I think actually having that type of friendship from such a young age, because a lot of the time when you're like, a lot of teenagers don't have that. You know, it's not that it's surface because there can be very deep and meaningful relationships, but this is like society tells you to like go out on the weekends and, you know, go clubbing and, you know, but we would be sitting around the table and we were all kind of doing our own thing separately with groups in school, but we would come together as one that, you know, and share. And I do actually really feel that the reason I do still feel so safe sharing poetry and safe, even setting up something like the Celtic World Forum is because I have that feeling of security that I got from friends from a really young age. And you're one of them like, you know, yeah, it's great to hear that that Tea Group and going to your parents' house with our Tea Group. And I just, your parents created such, and your dad particularly, and I said this last year, like just created such a safe environment. I suppose because there was three lads coming in, we're all rugby players. And it was just like, you could talk about whatever you wanted and it was a very safe space. And luckily, it sounds like you have, and I have found many similar spaces throughout our lives where we feel safe with the small people. And they're few and far between. I mean, I think Celtic World Forum, I think Circle Sessions, the spaces we create in companies, we're trying to create more of them, more little beacons of light. I mean, shout out to Shanahki, yeah, what Gaff has done with the storytelling night. There's loads going around the place, but yeah, shout out to the Tea Group for like being that safe space and luckily now, like, and I'm sure you have too with all your different artists, I have a few people that I can share stuff I've wrote and they can share with me. And it's so nice to be able to share someone with someone and they're not gonna be judging it, they're not gonna be forwarding it on, they're gonna be taking it in and be able to ask you questions about it. Yeah, I think that's, CAPTRA is really the essence of both our friendship, our Tea Group friendship, and I think what what I'm trying to do in the world, what you're trying to do in the world, what does other people out there trying to do this where we're creating a space for creativity, vulnerability, authenticity, a bit of craft. So yeah, it feels like we've kind of started to cover a lot of what I wanted to cover. And what about you? Is there anything else that you'd like to talk about? No, it's just been so lovely to talk about it, and I think I actually haven't discussed so much of what we discussed there ever, you know. What I do, I do think that's the beauty of conversation and of like, like you said, they're creating spaces where people can come together and just share, 'cause you just actually never know what's going to come up for you. And one of the things I absolutely love and I've seen you do it with the podcast is you can be talking to somebody who has a really, you know, serious job and they've the serious suit on and they're serious, you know. And with a 45 minute conversation, you're just two people completely, like it doesn't matter what you do. It's like what you bring to the table in a conversation. That's actually really all that matters, you know. And it just, it's highlighted for me to seem to ask how important that is. And I suppose my why behind what I'm doing now and what drives me to keep doing it, even on the days that are, you know, where you do maybe meet a hurdle or an obstacle. But like, you'll never go wrong when you're talking about just getting people to get back to humanity again. Like that's what it really is, you know, and connecting again on a deeper level than we are kind of doing at the moment on social media or on online or in our workspace, you know, just trying to get a little bit more connected to ourselves and to others. So yeah, fair play to you for hosting this podcast 'cause that's definitely doing that. On anybody listening, I'd say we'll probably, you know, from listening to the other episodes, even if you just get a nugget from an hour long conversation, it's like, it can be so important and it can just carry you into your week, you know. So you're doing that every week, super play to you. - Yeah, thanks, man. It's great and it's been great to chat to you. And yeah, I got a text through the day from someone who I was coaching with like a couple of months ago and they said, you know that thing you said to me about talking to one random person every day? Well, I just started a new job and I've been doing it and it's opened up my whole world. And I think we sometimes never know the impact that we're having or we never understand the full reality of the impact that we can have. So I think that's a nice reminder too. And for all the people that are on their way over from North America, from the US, from Canada, from Australia, from New Zealand, I mean, I met people from all these places coming to the Celtic World Forum. I'm excited to see it. And I, yeah, we, oh yeah, we have a discount code for anybody listening. Do you want to say a bit about that? Yeah, so for anybody listening, there is a discount code and it can be applied to either a one-day pass or a three-day pass. I just have to read that out from the thing. And it's IIMS friends. So you just type that in at the checkout and it'll apply a 25% discount to the forum tickets. So a one or three-day pass. And one of the dates, I forgot to ask. It's 5th to the 7th of September. So yeah, 5th to the 7th of September and it's on the Irish Institute of Music and Song and all the details are on CelticWorldForum.com, www.elticworldForum.com. And yeah, it'd be great to see people there or even just to, it's even great just to talk about it. Really, thank you. 'Cause like, just to talk about the concept and to hash it out with somebody, a friend as well, you know, has been great. - Glad, well, thanks so much for coming on. And yeah, that was a such a joy. - Thank you, it really was. (speaks in foreign language) - So dad, what do you think of that conversation? - I thought it was fantastic. Eva is as shiny as she has been since I've known her as a teenager and what the insights and the reflections are just tremendous. Tremendous, brilliant. - I mean, great to see you being connected. - Yeah, really good. And like just some of the things that came up for me, I mean, Eva talking about how we're all vibration and how music and song hits you so deeply, so quickly, just wow, I didn't expect the conversation to go there and, you know, it showed me, the power of something like this and the power of human connection, the power of communication, what a word or something can do for somebody, what it can unlock in somebody. - Hugely, and like as you say, that is the power of our words. I think what she covered brilliantly and eloquently does is the power of our intention and hope that that intentionality is being picked up on. And you'll hear this as you listen to it for the listeners, but what I took from it was, you know, even the most rehearsed and even the most polished can't get over our mask feeling underneath. So like the power of that in terms of like how we conversed with each other and what we say to each other and how we mean it, just usually reinforcing it and just reminding, it's just reminded me of, you'd often say to me like, so, you know, does that really what you mean? Like, because it doesn't sound like that, you know, and it's reminding yourself of your totality and all that goes with it. So yeah, it's just powerful, powerful. - Yeah, I mean, in terms of communication, our intention is important and also the way with which we communicate and how it's okay if someone miscontrues something to say, oh, I apologize for that. And that's not how I meant it. Or I didn't mean it like that. And this is what I meant. So, and it's the intention's important and the delivery's important. And I mean, what Ava was saying around the authenticity and vulnerability and connecting to the meaning of the song or the story and how that people connect with that. I mean, in the work we do with groups and you've seen it for 30 years, I have too, is you can tell when someone's in the middle of the room talking whether this has credence and they're living it or they're not or whether they're, I've even done a yoga class with someone and the room is packed and everyone's with the person. And then the same real class and there's a different yoga teacher and they could be saying the exact same words, but you can tell that it's not coming from a place of authenticity and it doesn't land at all. - And it's the same in giving a message in business. It's the same in giving a message in life. So very often the person, you need only be one link up in the chain, you need not be the owner, you need not be the CEO, you know, it could be a team lead. And if you're not living it, if you're saying stuff, that's not true. That's what I was picking up from Ava's talk is that like, wow, you know, at that, I'll repeat it. It's like even the most professional people can't hide that. So what hope have mere mortals going if they're not showing their true color? So yeah, really, really powerful. - Can you just expand on that a little bit? 'Cause I think there's some goal there that I want to expand clear. - Okay, so for me it's the, you know, we use words like being authentic and they can sound very grandiose and they can sound very kind of businessy speak, even if they form a lyric. Yeah, you know, when it's actually, you know, are you being true to yourself? You know, we're using the word humanity. It's like, can you just be human in your interactions? Can you, and being human means, you know, the ability to sometimes put yourself in someone's issues and just understand where they're coming from. And, you know, that's the hardest thing to do because we're all wired to think that our view is right. And, you know, that's someone else, you know, how could they have that view? And the challenge is to stand back and this lady was hearing aid and says like, you know, she was touring the world and at the outside, it's all glam. And the insta, it's all perfect. And every time she's uninstated, she's glammed up. And she's on point and she's singing. And as she's performing in front of thousands of people, she's on point. And then she knows in her heart of hearts it's not filling her up. So I relate that to me in my life and changes I've made. I relate it to people I'm dealing with every day who are doing things that doesn't fill their cup and are saying, but I have no choice. I have the mortgage to pay. I have children to mind. I have education fees to pay. Everything, all the norms of life. And that's what Ava was saying. It's like kind of, how do I give this up? Like this is paying my way. And I'm an artist and I'm performing on world stages. Like anyone else would say, are you not shut up and suck it up? And it's having that courage. You know, and I was only talking to someone yesterday who was far more mature than Ava in terms of years. And she's made a big career change. And she's saying the hardest thing is detachment. The hardest thing is detachment who I think I am are the image of what I am. And the industry that keeps looking at me like that and people I meet keep seeing me in that vein and that's not feeling like it. And she's a former CEO. So, you know, that courage piece I thought was fantastic. So I'm looking forward to, you know, people hearing that. And the whole intentionality then around just having a sense of or just taking the step to go with. So again, I don't know how it's going to be. So here she is doing her year two offer and with Celtic Forum, which is brilliant. Like the Celtic World Forum, what an aim, like what an aim, phenomenal. And no idea as to how that was going to go. You know, so, and that's what I hear again, like the best laid plans is like just being at the balloon. There's loads in it for people in a way that's again, sure to who we know if it's not that preachy, not like telling you this is the way that saying, oh, do what I do. And that saying, I should have learned this earlier. It's just like the way it is. So I just thought it was gorgeous. And, you know, and all the the eternal peace and the coming into our own space around that, you know, phenomenal. And then again, the great in that, you know, it's two and a half years of no creativity on what she would have called creativity, right in singing and performing, and get creativity in a whole other way. Creating two children, you know, like creating a whole new life, like phenomenon. I mean, oh, I talk about this all day. And like, we should just let people hear us and reflect us. - Well, yeah, I mean, I love doing these reflections with you because it helps me see it in new ways. And I love people hearing your perspective on it as well. And we've gotten lots of feedback that this is a really important part of what we do. And yeah, I always find myself saying that this is my best, this is my favorite yet. And that's the case again. And what a joy to be able to do it and to be able to put it out there. And I'm certainly getting a lot out of it personally. And I'm hearing that people are too. So yeah, thanks for everyone for listening. And yeah, yeah. Let's continue on this journey. - You keep going and sure look once there's one person out there and there is because we know to let it be me or Sally or someone who's listening. So happy days, happy days. - Well done. - All right. - Thanks everybody. - Talk to you later. - Bye. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Well, there you have it. Thank you for listening to this week's episode of the essential training podcast with me, Brian Kingston and my dad, Ian Kingston. As dad says, hope it brought something up for you and gave you a chance to reflect on your own work and your own life. We'll see you again next Thursday. And as always, we're open to any feedback or suggestions you might have, what you liked about us, what you think could be better, maybe some suggestions for guests, suggestions for topics as well. So thanks for listening and we will see you or you'll hear us next week. [ Silence ]