(upbeat music) (upbeat music) - They're the nearby hotel 'cause you could do a mini relaxicon there. - Well, you know, by the way, we're live. You know we're gonna do an EZincon, right? I just sort of threw it out there thinking people would. Maybe two people would say, hey, that's a great idea, but a bunch of EZin followers and friends have said that they'd like to do that. - So, I mean, all you need is a hotel and a pool. - I won't be on the pool, so I don't need the pool. - Oh, yeah, the bar wouldn't hurt, yeah. - Yeah, but yeah, we need the hotel and the bar and a restaurant would be good. - Yeah, yeah. - So, I don't mean like panels, we'll have some informal couple of panels. Like today we're gonna, let's talk about this, you know, that sort of thing. - All right, so that's what's called a relaxicon. - Relaxicon, absolutely. - Yeah, everybody just sits by the pool or in the lounge or the bar and you know, things happen organically. In fact, you could describe the podcast as a relax podcast, right? - Mm-hmm. - That's right, we're learning the big 64 dollar words on this podcast by God. - Well, it's a very specific number, Mike. - Welcome back to the Lovecraft EZin podcast, the little podcast that could, and it keeps going. - It shouldn't. - Like the energizer battery. And our guest today is Sean Hamill, hey man. - Hey, good to be back. - Yeah, I was just telling, thanks for being here, I was just telling these guys before we started recording that Sean Hamill is the only person I know besides my family who has seen the book house in person. So. - I've seen it some satellite imaging. - Oh, I figured you did that, I had no doubt that you did that just knowing you. - All right, and I particularly keep an eye on where all the storms are going, and you guys are gonna like not be happy next week. - No, I'll be happy if storms are coming. I'm always happy if storms are going. As long as I don't have to drive in there. - Okay. - If you usually, though, if you hear about storms hitting Texas, you know, and I'll have friends say, hey, you doing okay? Yeah, it's in Galveston or Houston, which is any other state, it would be two states away. You know, right, Sean? - Yep, yeah. - Sean? - Yeah, Houston got messed up earlier this summer. Pretty bad. - Yeah, they're by that ocean, it causes trouble. All right, if you are watching live, let us know that you can see us and hear us. My data says you can. Yep, my data is correct. Welcome to everybody who's joining us on Monday night, and welcome to everyone who watches and or listens to us later. Thank you, Donna. Donna's watching on her TV. So you guys are in HD on Donna's TV. - Wait, I have not been paid for HD. (laughing) - You haven't even paid for SD. - But not any HD players. No, my cut person didn't show up during that. - So if you're new or if you're listening only on the road later or whatnot, I'm Mike Davis, our guest today is Sean Hamill. Pete Rolik is here, and Alan Hughes is here. Hey guys, thanks for being here. - Hello. - If they're new, introduce yourself Alan and Pete. Alan, you go first. - Okay, I'm Alan Hughes. I'll work on the easing movie and video game pages. And I've not added anything in a while. So if there's a 2024 movie or I think the most recent movies I've added were no one will save you in lovely dark and deep. So I'm working for some recent movies. - No one will save you was really, really good. And I can see the cosmic horror theme. I've not seen lovely dark and deep. - We watched it on a movie night, easing movie night, and it was, a lot of people felt it was cosmic car. - No really, I thought Matt said something about, he didn't like it, but... - No, it's not. - Yeah, he was trying to think of a nice way to say that. Oh, Donna says she has one to add. Yeah, what is your one to add, Donna? Tape it in the sidebar and we'll have Alan check that out. Right, buddy? Pete. - Oh, Pete Rolik, I pretend to write. Um, which apparently makes my publishers happy. And I cook, apparently I cook decent hooly hooly chicken, but don't know. - Like Davis, I pretend to podcast and I'll be doing some data entry later this evening for my wife's lesson plans. So there's that, I've got that going for me. Are you a paid employee of the school district? - In a way, you could say that, in a way. - No, I'm about a week behind on my lesson plan, so I'm expecting a... - Well, they're getting started, strongly worded email at some point soon. - Well, I will not get into this except to say, how can I put this in a really nice way that everyone's fucking bureaucrats. That's all I'm gonna say about it. So anyway, Sean, for those who don't know who you are, could you introduce yourself to? - Yeah, I'm sure. - Just so you're the guest and all that, you know? - Right, right. Sean Hamill, I pretend to write but less frequently or prolifically than Pete does. - That's not a bad thing. (laughs) - And yeah, yeah, I have two novels. Cosmology Monsters came out in 2019, which is how I met you guys. It's a very Lovecraftian horror novel, and then my new one, The Deconants, just came out in July. And that's what, I guess we're here to talk about, nominally. - Oh, crap, I wrote another one. - Yeah, I was gonna fuck with the moving over the last year. - Oh, I am not prepared. Yes, yes, The Deconants. - Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Cosmology of Monsters, if you've not read it, folks, that's a very Lovecraftian book. It's a very good book. I forgot what Stephen King said. He said if... - If John Irving ever wrote a horror novel, would be something like this, yeah. - Right, that's high praise, especially from Stephen King. So. - I agree, I'm, I'm, that's the fact that there's a reason I have it memorized. (laughing) I'll tell you what I think it is. I don't have one copy on my shelf. I have two copies on my shelf. - Isn't one of them that bizarre arc? - It is, yeah. (laughing) - Arc. - Advanced reader copy. - Oh, oh, that, I thought, okay. I know what an arc is, but for some reason I pictured Noah's arc as an alternate cover on one of Sean's books. - I mean, the main character of that novel is named Noah. So, if you're not. - That's probably what I thought. (laughing) - Noah, it was a weird thing. We ran out of advanced readers copies before the book came out, and my publicist had some printed, but they are, they, they're halfway between what, like a paperback novel and like a portfolio you might put a business presentation into. - And Pete actually found one in the wild. - Yeah, an arc in the wild, wow. - Yeah. I kind of remember where, oh, it was in, oh, shoot. Hold on. - Leaf Adams says, "I like the mother background, Sean." - Oh, yeah, thank you. - So, I do, I have a question about this, yeah. - I have a question about this book. - Okay. - You gave me a copy. - Uh-huh. - I don't see a signature anywhere on this. - I didn't sign it. - No, you didn't sign it. - Oh. - Man, you're lucky I'm doing this interview. (laughing) - I'm kidding, thanks. - Well, you know, I will, I will tell you, somebody got in my head about signing books if I hadn't been asked to sign them, and so I got a little weird about it. - Oh, that's- - I just asked you. - That is so not true. I think you can always err on the side of signing them. - Yeah, this person wasn't somebody, who's opinion. - Well, the expert here would be Pete, wouldn't you agree, Pete? Always, yeah. - Always sign it. However, I'm gonna tell a funny here, there was an old sci-fi writer called James Gunn, not the director, but old sci-fi writer called James Gunn, wrote a series of books called "The Road to Science Fiction." Every, every copy of "The Road to Science Fiction" I've ever found has been signed. I've never, you know, in fact, it's rarer to find an unsigned one. So, there you go. Maybe there is, maybe there is a limit. - But typically it raises the value in a book and all that. - Is it about value, or is it just make it more endearing to you? - Both. But for me, it's not about value, but for you, a lot of the time it is, because you're a bookseller. You, you know, who you remind me of is, a guy in a ghost novella by Susan Hill, the man of the picture. And he describes it. One of the characters describes himself as, as an art collector, you know, just not doing it for a living, although he starts to make a lot of money out of it. He's a professor. But he said my aunt encouraged me to, what was the phrase, not for my art collection, not to be stayed, and lifeless isn't the word he used, but something like that. But to keep it fresh and keep replenishing it, like I might have a work of art for eight years, and then I decided to sell it for a profit and I'd get something else. And you know what I mean? So it's, his art collection stayed fresh. And you were, I think about that with you for with books. So I try, like, I'm really, so I have a complete collection of neuro wolf novels, all of them. And I'm considering getting rid of it because I've read it three times and I don't know what else to do with it. So there you go. Anyway. - Well, if you keep it forever, then the profit goes to your kids eventually instead of you. So, yeah. Anyway, let's get back to our guest. - My guest, I suppose we should. So what, could you tell the audience with the dissonance is about, you know, no spoilers, obviously, but? - Yeah, yeah, the elevator pitch, I would call it dark fantasy with a splash of horror. It's a novel about a group of friends in the late 1990s who discover that magic is real, but it is predicated on the idea that there's something broken in the fundament of existence, a gap between how things ought to be and how they actually are and that the tension between these things generates an energy field, which they call the dissonance. - Can I interrupt, Professor? - Yeah. - In my mind, it's dark fantasy, absolutely, but dark urban fantasy. In other words, it's not Lord of the Rings type stuff, it's said in the more or less, quote unquote, real world. - Yeah, that's fair. Although, urban is such a weird term, yeah, I know, I know. Since it is set mostly in a small town. But yeah, yeah, in that trouble. - It's like Charles to land, for example, type of thing. - 100%, but yeah, this group of kids, they discover that magic is real, it's predicated on negative emotions. The only people who can use it are, and I'm throwing up air quotes around this, but it's just easy shorthand, are a little bit broken. So people who are maybe neurodivergent or mentally ill or carrying a lot of trauma. And so this group of outsiders, it's sort of about how this sort of brings them together and how they level up together. And it's intercutting between these different summer vacations when they're kids and a story set in the present day as well, where all of these characters are returning to their hometown after not having seen or spoken to one another in 20 years to deal with the unquiet ghosts of their past. And sort of the novel is built around those two timelines sort of converging and then facing their past. - About a 20 year difference in the two timelines. - Yeah, yeah. - It's interesting to me, one of the things that struck me, it's interesting to me that the source of the magical power for lack of a better phrase is it's a bit different than you'll find in a lot of magic themed books. As you said, people who have had trauma and have had other issues are the people who are most likely to be able to wield this. - Yeah, yeah, I was interested in exploring the idea. Well, I mean, so if my first novel, Cosmology, is about family, this is very much a novel about friendship. And I am someone who was very lucky because I have had the same basic group of friends since I was about 14 years old. I met my forever people these. And as we've grown up, we've found out that most of us are neurodivergent. We just weren't diagnosed at the time. So it makes perfect sense like why we sort of spoke the same language and got along so well, even though we didn't get along that well with most people. - Like it tracks like, it's on the case. - Yeah, exactly. And I was really interested in sort of exploring that and that the way that that sort of outsiderness can be a superpower in a lot of ways, but it can also break you. And so like it just sort of playing with those ideas and exploring the love and friendship that can be born out of that like attracting like. - So we're talking about three people if memory serves from reading the novel that we're friends. - There are four, but yes, three point of view characters. - Right, yes, yes. Can you talk about those three kids who were adults in 2019? - Yeah, so there are, there's Athena who is, I'm talking about them as adults, I guess. Okay, who runs a, she lives in the Birmingham, Alabama area and runs sort of a magic shop like you might actually find in a big city, which is mostly like mass produced spell books, candles shaped like penises, worry stones, different herbs and things, but also does this side business and dissonant artifacts like genuine magic stuff, which is how she actually pays the rent. - Candice shaped like penises, I just learned something. - Oh yeah, this was, the shop is very much based on a real place I would sometimes go in Birmingham, yeah. - She's the one of the three in 2019 who seems to have her shit more or less together. - Mostly, yeah, I'd say financially of the three of them, she's definitely the most stable, but you know, I think in a lot of ways she's also the most locked up of the three emotionally, the one who is sort of just pressed everything deep down and is not dealing with anything at all. And then you have Erin who lives in Iowa City, she has sort of bummed from one crappy barista job to another, like she's literally on her third barista job in Iowa City by itself. - Which is not a big town. - No, no, it is not. But there are a lot of coffee shops because it is a college town. So if you're going to fail from one coffee shop to another, that's not a bad place to do it. And she is cohabitating with a person named Philip who is a little odd and unusual. And they're nominally together, like they're kind of a couple but there's something a little weird about the relationship. And with no spoilers, I have to say it's pretty brilliant. - Oh, thank you. And they at the beginning of the novel are being assaulted by otherworldly forces, basically. They're kind of the first ones to, they're not the first ones to experience it but they're the first ones to be hurt by what's going on. Like the signal that there's something out of kilter out of Tilt in the world. And then the third is Hal, who lives in a town called Vandergriff which is basically a stand-in for eye hometown of Arlington who is a recovering alcoholic, very newly recovering alcoholic who has just, when we meet him, he is about to meet with his lawyer to discuss a plea deal because he killed a man in a bar fight during a blackout drunk. And he is very much a mess. He's sober but the implication is that he's doing it because it looks better for his case than anything else. And these three people are sort of drawn back home because of these otherworldly events. And there is a very pointed Facebook invite for the 20th anniversary of a, it's a memorial service for a bad thing that happened in their town. And that sort of is what draws them home. There is also a fourth character in 2019 who's not in the flashbacks, a teenage boy named Owen who is a closeted gay teenager in Alabama who because he has a crush on this boy in one of his classes attends a midnight necromancy ritual in his cemetery and it goes horribly awry and all of his friends are killed and he has taken hostage by the thing that kills all of his friends. And this thing is also very interested in getting back to the small Texas town. Talk a little bit about the characters in the late 90s. I mean, there are some things we have to be careful so that we don't give spoilers away but there is a professor, Professor Marsh that these kids kind of get into magic and the dissonance obviously in high school and they have this guiding force behind them. By the way, Professor Marsh, was that named deliberate? It's Lovecraftian name. - Oh, no. - I'll say no by your reaction. - I should have, I would love to say yes but I think it was more a nod to Beverly Marsh from it. - Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, which was in turn probably a nod to Lovecraft. But anyway. - Probably. - Yeah, well, yeah. Knowing King, it probably was. The, talk about this guy a little bit. Sort of an enigmatic, yeah. - Yeah, Marsh is, so basically when we meet the kids in the 90s, they, there is another member of the friend group named Peter who basically lives with his grandfather. His parents died and he's living with his grandfather in this house that's sort of on the outskirts of town and this house is owned by his grandfather who is a retired college professor and that's where they go hang out because the professor, first of all, it's big. The professor is financially well off. It's, and he doesn't really pay much mind to what they're doing. So they have the run of the place. And he is a, he's pretty disinterested in them until they sort of start to show some potential in this area that they have discovered on their own this, the dissonance. They don't know what to call it that. And he decides almost reluctantly to kind of take them under his wing and start training them. Turns out that he, actually this has been, his life's work has been sort of the accumulation of knowledge. The thing about the dissonance is it's not something you can Google, obviously, even, or even in 2019. It's, it's more like the way magic is done in Susanna Clark's Jonathan Strange, where basically, it's all in books and how much you know about it is entirely dependent on the size of your library. And it's not, and knowledge is hoarded very jealously in this community. It's not really a community per se. It's more like practitioners who have uneasy, I guess, alliances. But, so yeah, he sort of takes them under his wing, but, and he does teach them and he does guide them, but he's also a deeply cruel man. And cold and sort of gives with one hand and then smacks upside the head with the other. So it's a very complicated relationship that they have with him. And that was another thing I was really interested in exploring was I've been pretty lucky. I've had a lot of mentors over my 41 years. And most of them have been pretty good, but I, some of them, a couple of them, I was interested in exploring the sort of, I mean, you see it all the time with like high school football coaches, right? Like, you know, screaming at the kid, basically doing whatever it takes, like employing any tactic to try and drive the young player towards their potential, right? Whether it's kind or not. And I was sort of interested in that. - Well, sometimes it's not about their potential. It's about, you know, the coach wants to rack up as many winning games as he can. - That's fair too. That's true. I'm looking at it from the kindest possible point of view, but you're absolutely right. Sometimes it's entirely selfish. And yeah, they wreck these kid's psyches in the pursuit of this. And so I was interested in sort of playing with those ideas too, and not discounting either end of it, that they did get something out of this, that they did get an education, but also this is not a good person or a model, you know, figure to really look up to. - His motivation seems to be two things, definitely amassing as much knowledge. About this as you can and power that comes with that knowledge. - Absolutely. And I think that he sees, especially in Athena, who's sort of the teacher's pet, he sees in her a lot of potential and usefulness and takes a special interest in her that the others don't really get. - Alan, do you have questions about this? I think you probably do. - Oh, yeah, so I like how you kind of tease this devastating incident that that, and my mind was going through, especially kind of giving some of the events of this week. I was kind of going through like, what could it been? And eventually we find out, but I thought the year that it happened, 1999, was that significant? - I think it wasn't something that, so the way that that played out was more about the logistics of... Basically, I was writing the novel during COVID. I didn't want to have to deal with COVID. And I knew, so that meant that the events in the present tense had to take place in 2019, which meant 20 years ago was 1999. But I'd be lying if I said that, you know, Columbine wasn't a huge, I mean, these characters are the exact age that I am. So like, 1999, I was 16 years old, and it was a, it left a huge, indelible mark. So I mean, it was definitely something that I was aware of, even though logistically, that's just kind of how it played out. - That was my second year as a teacher, and that was just the effect that it left. You can see it in this town and... - Yeah. - In the book, so. - In 1999, I'd been married for three years already, so just, you're making me feel old, man. - I mean, I'm starting to feel old myself. - Oh, man. - I can't help you. - Anyway, sorry on it. - No. - No, I'll, and again, you, just some really great things in here, you set up the chosen one narrative, but you kind of reject it, was that it fell off. You just kind of saw me in my expectations that went another way. - Yeah, yeah. I'm not a, I mean, I think that they're, that narrative is a perfectly valid one. It's just kind of worn out right now, so it's all, it's fun to kind of turn it on its ear. I mean, you know, in the Star Wars sequels, I was really excited about Ray being nobody, and then of course they walked that back. I like the idea, yeah, that you don't, yeah, that there isn't really necessarily a chosen one, or if they are, that's not necessarily a good thing. (keyboard clicking) - Choosing ones are really good things. - Sorry about that, I thought I put it on mute before I messed with my headphones there. (laughs) - Oh, I didn't hear any. - Oh, good, all right. Anyway. Anything else, Alan, do you, do you have? - Uh, still a general question. I love that again, the dynamic, how you have the, the mentor. It made me kind of think in the comic book world of the Doom Patrol. Do you have any favorite superhero teams? - I do love the Doom Patrol. The Grant Morrison Run is one of my favorite works of art, period. So, I mean, I'm trying to think, of course, and I feel like that dynamic is definitely a good one because they're sort of like a more honest version of the X-Men in a way, I guess. And I think both were, well, they weren't both created because Stanley and Jack Kirby created the X-Men, but I know the guy who created the Doom Patrol did also work on X-Men. He wrote some X-Men comics and whose name escapes me now. But yeah, like, you know, the, trying to think, I mean, I'm pretty basic. You know, I love Batman, Superman. I'm trying to think of cool superheroes, though, like, ones that aren't necessarily-- - Just such heroes. - All right, more obscure superheroes. Let me put it that way. - The question, phantom stranger. - I haven't read enough of the question. - Oh, there's a great run in the late '80s, starts in the late '80s. - A Denis O'Neal one? - Yeah. - Yes. - Yeah, yeah, that's-- - And then there's a, there's a Fables, Alan knows all about this 'cause he sent me a poster. Denis O'Neal did a trilogy called "Fables" and Batman annual, then a green arrow, then it finished, the story finishes in the question annual and is absolutely fabulous. Probably three of the best comedy books I've ever read in my life, so. - I need to, yeah, I definitely need to check that out. I always loved Denis O'Neal stuff. - Yeah. - Yeah, let me, let me percolate on that superhero thing and maybe get back to you a little later in the episode 'cause I feel like I've got a better answer, but yeah, I think comic books, and I don't think it's as obvious in the dissonance as Lovecraft was in cosmology, but I feel like the dissonance definitely owes a debt to Robert E. Howard, who I know wasn't a comic book writer, but definitely was a huge influence on heroic fantasy and obviously part of Conan's lasting legacy is that massive run at Marvel from the, what the late '60s through the mid '90s before Dark Horse got the run. Like that I think probably had as much to do with that character staying power as anything until the Schwarzenegger movie came. So I definitely that whole world is very much on my mind, you know, that whole milieu is definitely, this book owes a great debt to all of that. - Sorry, I'm sorry, did you have another question? - No, no, go ahead. - I was gonna ask you, the mini world's theory plays into this book and without getting too heavily into spoilers, I find it fascinating, I've talked about it a lot over the years with Pete and could you get into that a little bit? The, I know this Marsh guy is a big believer in it while others in the community, for lack of a better word, are not. - Right. Yeah, the dominant force, I guess, politically or whatever, power brokers in the dissonant community, such as it is, at least the ones we meet in this book are, you know, conservative Christians and they have a very specific worldview, obviously, and the dissonance fits very neatly into that, you know, Eden, fallen world, you know, narrative for them. So like they're pretty snug in there and Marsh is the only one sort of poking around, you know, more esoteric stuff, not maybe not the only one, but definitely the loudest one that we see who's willing to like actually, you know, show up at their convention and hold, you know, you know, presentations about how they're wrong, basically. But-- - Well, I'll say one thing, just to interrupt, if you don't mind. Marsh versus these guys, these guys have made a decision about what their beliefs are, and then they use whatever evidence that they can to support, in other words, they reached the conclusion first. - Right. - And then they only think about, I'm sorry, the evidence that supports that, that conclusion. Whereas Marsh, a character notwithstanding is a kind of a seeker. - Yeah, yeah, he actually wants the truth. And that's another thing that I really, if I can toot my own horn, I'm very proud of about the characters that he's not, I mean, he's very much a like a Lovecraftian hero, right? Like in terms of like, he wants to actually, you know, see what's behind the curtain. - It was after this forbidden knowledge and all that. - Exactly, yeah, you know, he, I mean, so, and he, you know, he is the one who is like in that respect, like just academically speaking, he is the one to get behind, even if personally he's kind of a dick. - Yeah. - So yeah, I was interested in exploring that. I know I'm using the word explore a lot here. I apologize, I should refer to the stories before this. But yeah, I wanted to play with the idea of other worlds, but I didn't necessarily want to get into, again, without getting into too much spoilers, like alternate versions of the same world, you know, like where they're meeting alternate versions of themselves or dealing with that. Although, I think there's a lot of really great media that's already kind of played with that, like French or even the magician's TV show has a lot of fun with that. So I was more interested in like, though the one other world we see is a very different sort of, I think that's the closest I get into Lovecraftian stuff, honestly. - Yeah, no, it's not a Lovecraftian book, but it is a dark fantasy horror book for sure. - Right, right. But that section where they actually visit the other world is I think where I lean into the cosmic stuff the most. And yeah, I wanted to visit another world, but I also wanted it to just raise way more questions than it answered with that. And that might be spoiling stuff too. But yeah, I didn't, I wanted it to be strange. I wanted it to feel like, like, my favorite movie is "Alien" and my favorite part of "Alien" is in the first 40 minutes when they're exploring the derelict ship. You know, and I know Prometheus came along and we got answers as to what that is, but like until 2012, yeah, Pete's throwing up the quote signs too, we didn't know. Like, what is that thing in the chair? What is that ship? Why is it there? Like, you know, and-- - Which is more fascinating than getting any answers, yeah. - Yeah, so yeah. - Sean, did you ever read "The Dark Horse Aliens" comics? - I've read a bunch of them. I haven't read all of them. - 'Cause there's a, the engineer is actually completely-- - I remember, yeah, I remember, yeah, yeah. - Yeah, in that first trilogy, yeah. The Dark Verhiden wrote, I think. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, so, I was just gonna say that, you know, the predator movies, particularly the second one, just stole everything from "Dark Horse." And then the "Alien" movies just sort of like, yeah, we don't want any part of that. - Right, there's so, they did so much better. - And there's a lot of great stuff, yeah, in those "Dark Horse" books in the 90s, yeah. - Yeah, anyway. Sorry, sidetrack. - No, no, no, I can geek out about "Alien" stuff all day. I, yeah, I, I still have the omniby, the "Dark Horse" did. I haven't read everything, but I've read a lot of it. And yeah, it's, I-- - Yeah, you know, love-- - I would love to see more stuff like that, yeah, in the "Alien" world. - Paul does this really well, though, with his books. The ambiguity and not giving answers, but doing it the right way, that sort of thing. I'm with you all the way on the "Alien" versus "Permethias" thing. - Yeah, and I was just gonna say about Paul, what I think is interesting there is that he actually, usually, explicitly will ask the question and leave it ambiguous. Whereas I think in "Alien," like, the question is a little more implied, because like none of the characters actually say, "What is this?" You know, and the film doesn't answer or offer any possible answers either, whereas Paul will actually kind of, at least give us some breadcrumbs to choose from. I'll put it that way. And he does it brilliantly, and I wish I could figure out that trick 'cause he does it really well. - The mini-worlds thing that Marsh is, I don't know, seeking, made me think of, and somebody just wrote an article about this, made me think of a book that I really like called "Universal Harvester" by John Darnell. - That's the only one of his I haven't read, yeah. But I like his other two very much. - It's set in Iowa, by the way, in the late '90s. So there's, I'm looking at the article now, and there's a, near the beginning of the book, that one character has a discussion with his father about something that, you know, he's a grown kid, and he lives with his father. They live together, we'd be more accurate. And in the book, it actually says, and this really took me aback the first time I read it. And I thought it was so fascinating. After the conversation's over, he goes, it says, in some versions of this story, there's an argument here, because Jeremy feels like his father is being nosy. I'm skipping down, and then it says in other versions, but then it goes, but in this version, he keeps his job at the video hut, and then something else happens. And then the article goes on to say, which says, that some versions of this story narrative voice arrests us. It will be turned several times with further aside about the novel structure. Events happening in parallel to other characters, et cetera. And John Connolly did it in a couple of books too, like when a character dies, he said something like, in another version, this doesn't happen, and she has children, I'm gonna paraphrase this badly, but now all those potential children will never be born in this reality. So anytime many worlds comes up in fiction, I'm pretty fascinated. - Yeah, I think what I didn't want to get into, I agree all of that is fascinating, but what I'm worried about is using that as a nothing really matters, because there are infinite versions of this person you can pull out of the ether forever. And I think Marvel has stumbled over that. I'll come right out and say it. I think they stumbled over it even in Endgame. I know that Post Endgame is where everybody got mad, but I think that it does not make sense that Gamora is alive, and what's your name, Black Widow is not, at the end of the movie? - Yeah, so nobody really dies, there's no real. - Right, right, it doesn't make sense, it's arbitrary. - Yeah. - Well, do you remember the DC Justice League movie, Crisis on Two Worlds? - I haven't actually seen that one. - Well, you should see it then, because in that one, Alan's not hiding, is he? - Oh man, Alan Mann's speech at the end? - Yeah, Alan Mann basically decides that all of reality, all universes need to be destroyed because nothing matters. What exactly do you say? Do you remember off top of your head? - Well, if everything's happened, if there's infinite versions of everything, the only choice that matters is the nihilistic one, destroying everything. - Right. - I didn't want to get into that, exactly. - Yeah, exactly, yeah. - As I agree, Marvel has stumbled over this. - Yeah, and I wanted death to matter. I mean, it's the same thing that Star Trek into darkness runs into, where they have the magic blood that brings Kirk back to life at the end, and it does not come up again in the third movie. - Right, if you've got this, why not use it for everyone? - Yeah, exactly. - Yeah, it'd be the biggest medical breakthrough in the history of existence. - Right. - It completely changes the world. But yeah, I wanted death to matter, basically, because there are characters in this book who die, and I didn't want it to lose its weight. So the other worlds had to be literally other worlds rather than alternate worlds. - Yeah. - And who knows, if I get to do a sequel, maybe we start playing with that in this book. I was like, I ain't touching that. I mean, it's already a 500-page book, so. - Well, I loved how you took us to that other world, and you gave us a lot of just amazing imagery, but didn't explain it, and then we're gone. - Well, thank you. Yeah, that was most of the fun of writing that part. - Well, not everything needs to be explained, and it loses its awe and mystery so much of the time if it is, to the infection I'm talking about. - Agreed. - So, anyway, I probably said a bunch of things that doesn't really have to do with the book, but many worlds, and alternate universes, yeah. Okay, so maybe there's a universe where one small thing is different, but if that's the case, then there have got to be many, many, many universes where almost everything is different. - Right. - So, yeah, and what are the odds that you'd stumble into one where most things are the same, but only one thing is different? - Right, exactly. - You stumbled into my territory, money. - Oh, yeah, I know. I figured you would have said something before now. - So, Sean, I have this idea that those universes that are different by one tiny thing, they collapse back into each other. - Oh, interesting, okay. - And so, when people remember events differently, it's because they happen to them differently, but the energy that would sustain a different universe isn't strong enough because of that's just that one event. - The Mandela effect, you mean? - Yeah, yeah, yeah, that is such a cool idea. You should write something about this. (both laughing) Where in which I always interject that a human being making a decision shouldn't be enough power to split a universe and create a new one. Somebody going left as opposed to going right. - Yeah, and then what I always say is like, okay, so as long as they're alive and that difference, that decision makes a difference in the greater events, then it sustains, but then once everything sort of coalesces again, those two universes collapse back to each other. - Realistically, I disagree. Talking about fiction, I think your theory is absolutely and completely fascinating. I, you know, that's pretty cool. - Yeah, I agree, that is very cool. We meander on this podcast, as you know, Sean. - Yeah, yeah, I listened and participated in the past. I remember. - He bought his ticket. - That's right. - That's exactly right. - So Sean. - Yeah, go ahead. - You wrote this during COVID. - Yes. - Particularly said he didn't want this to be a COVID book because COVID creates a whole slew of problems for writers. - Yeah, it really does. And especially when I was writing it because we were in the middle of it. So it was like, I don't know when this ends. I don't know like what, you know, I was self-isolating first in a house and then in an apartment by myself, like, 'cause I went through a divorce during COVID and yeah, it would have made the present tense story of the novel almost impossible. At least if my characters were behaving the way I was behaving and hiding basically from the world, trying not to get sick or get anybody else sick. - You know, it's interesting. During COVID, you know, once a few months went by and people like actors would continue a TV show about with masks in a realistic world, like, I don't know, there's a Rob Lowe show that I think they're firefighters or something. And, you know, in that time period, he's wearing a mask on the show and other characters wearing masks because it's actually during COVID. And then there's another show, I don't remember what it was, but they actually interviewed him about it. And it was during COVID, but none of the characters were masked up because they were all tested frequently and they deliberately said it after COVID. And this was just so interesting to me. I wish I remembered the name of the show and they deliberately said it after COVID. In other words, hopeful this is gonna end. It is gonna end sometime in the next year or two and this is what it's like when it's over. - Right. - You know, so I can see the problems it presents and the different choices that writers have to make, whether it's TV or books or whatever. Sorry, what'd be? - Yeah, yeah. And if I do get to do a sequel, that is something I will have to figure out because they're headed right into 2020. So, yeah. - Well, one thing is just because most things are realistic doesn't mean it's set necessarily in our reality. There doesn't have to be a COVID. - That's a, that's a fair point. I mean, I only one interviewer ever called me out on this but, and they were French rather than American, but there is a section of cosmology of monsters that is set in the fall of 2001 and there is no mention of 9/11 anywhere in the text. And I think most American readers, it just kind of, you know, but this, you know, interviewer from France was like, what the hell? You know what, not even a passing mention it. I was like, yeah, you got me. I don't know. - I remember when "Star Trek 4" came out. Remember "Star Trek 4" they go back into them to the mid 80s. And this review, huh? - The steel whales? - Yeah. - And this reviewer of the movie was just incensed that in the movie people weren't coming up to Kirk and Spock and saying how realistic they looked to the "Star Trek" characters and things like that. And I thought it doesn't have to be the same reality. You know, that's just ridiculous. And the same, same thing can apply to 9/11 or to, you know, COVID or whatnot. I think I'm gonna say her name wrong. Yeah, Jing, am I saying that, right? Anyway, she wrote a story where 9/11 almost happened. So yeah, it's fiction. You can do whatever you want. - I have a short story called "The Best Laid Plans" about a monster whose sole purpose is to, he's actually like an egg sack. He just has to, you know, travel around the world dropping his eggs, you know, off in major cities to destroy the world. And the first time he tries to do it, something goes, he gets put into a concentration camp. The second time it's during Fidel Castro takes over and shuts Cuba down. So he's stuck there. And then it's during 9/11. So there's no international travel. And then the next time he's during COVID, he just keeps, all he wants to do is destroy the world. He just keeps not being able to do it. - This is a solid concept for a story. - This is off topic too. But during COVID, didn't you guys find, I found like I would watch a TV show or a movie. Set in like a big city or something. And part of the enjoyment was just seeing people out and about, normally without masks, you know? - One of my... - It's easy to forget just how abnormal everything was. You know? - One of my favorite little, I don't know, gifts is this little kid playing on the sidewalk. And he looks up and he says, "Uh oh." And his mom off camera says, "What?" And he says, "People." (laughing) And just, you know, that's where I'm at these days. COVID changed a lot. It just made me realize how much I just want to stay home. Except I go to Necronomicon every year. So, you're everything, yeah. - I heard getting out of Necronomicon this year was an adventure. - Oh my God, I must have taken the last thing out. - You did, you did. Right after you left, it all went to hell. - Somebody needs to, I was seeing, it wasn't just you, there were a few other horror writers in my Facebook feed who were having like experiences like one guy, I think it was Jeremiah Dilling Cook got stuck there. Like I think he lived close enough that he was driving, but like the roads were flooding or something and ended up like at a mall or something. - William Holloway and I had to lay over, he was going to Austin, I was going to Dallas, but we had to lay over him in Charlotte and man, both planes were late. We stayed there late, late, late, late. - Yeah, we got into Palm Beach an hour late. - Like a poor guy. - Yeah, no, no, we, but it was late. It was like nine, 10 o'clock at night, which is, you know, for airline travel, that's late. And we get off and there are cops everywhere and every single terminal has a, it's full of people and they all say the late are canceled. - 'Cause you were in the airport same time I was and I missed you. - Yeah, many times. - I got to think about it Saturday night at the bar and I was booking a flight early in the morning. I was out of there before you even woke up. Mark, I think you were. - Well, I think, oh yeah, go ahead. I was just going to say, I think somebody should kickstart an anthology for all of the different horror writers who like were stranded or semi-stranded during the exodus from Necronomicon, like an anthology of cosmic horror, just about people trying to get away from Necronomicon as the world is in. - Funny you say that several years back, was it 2013 Pete? A lot of us did a like stories and other things set at Necronomicon. - Yeah, the doom that came to Providence. - The doom that came to Providence, yeah. And you can't get that book anywhere. But I have two copies, but. - So you're saying I have to do a heist at the book house if I want a copy. - Yeah, absolutely. - I'll show up ostensibly to sign your copy of the dissonant. You'll be like one copy. - So one of the things that I mentioned at the coffee clatch to talk about programming is that there's a whole bunch of programming leading up to the convention. Like there's a Wednesday afternoon thing and there's a Thursday night party and then there's a Friday morning thing. Before the con even gets going. But then like Sunday at nine o'clock, everything shuts down. - Yeah, everybody wants to get out before. - And, but there are people who couldn't get out, who don't get out till Monday or Tuesday. You know, maybe, maybe not official con events, but you know post con guidance on where there are good bookstores. - How about we just, here's we're all meeting at this bar. That's my guidance. - Sure. - That would work. - Oh my God, Saturday night was insane. - That's like I'm so glad I'm here. - No, I brought it up. - What was it saying about it? - Well, well, at six o'clock, well, first of all, you guys all went to see Alien and I ended up finding Matt at a restaurant, a Chinese, Asian restaurant, having dinner with Matt because they didn't want to seat me because they were booked solid and yet the place was empty, whatever. Anyway, I got, I went from there to bar to bar to bar. All I wanted to do was go home and go to sleep and everybody just keeps texting me. Come here, come here. And like next thing you know, I'm like, we're closing down Trinity. - Your feet wouldn't take you home. - No. - You know, you'll be alone when the secret gin milk closes. - So Sean, how do we get you to Providence next time? - Good question. - When is it? - You'd enjoy it. It's August every other year. So August, 2026. - Oh, it'll be, okay, 2026. Well, by then, yeah, I'll have some PTO again. - Okay, that's always a thing. - Yeah, yeah, this year, all the PTO went to book tour. So, which, you know, very lucky and fortunate, but also like, I would love to actually do something fun. I mean, this, it is fun, but it's work, right? - Right. - You know, you don't get to hang out with your friend's monitor, you know. - Right. - Shut down the bar. - Yeah. Are you teaching now or? - No, no, I work as a technical writer for a company that makes water and gas fittings. I did a little bit of teaching. I taught one class at UTA last spring, and it was fun, but it was also a reminder, it's like, oh yeah, I'm not really super into teaching. I'm not that good at it. I don't have the knack, you know, the way that some of my friends do. Like it just, I don't know. But it was fun to do it and to, you know, the students are great and everything, but I think I'm happier with the corporate job and writing on the side. Although traveling for book stuff would be easier if I were a teacher, I think. - I took a picture of one of your books at the Barnes & Noble in Arlington a while back, and I couldn't find it. And he's like, oh yeah, it's over here. You know, it was on display. I just couldn't find it. And he's like, the guy helping me was like, yeah, yeah, and he used to work here, you know. And now he's his big-time author. I'm like, yeah, I know, friend of his. I wanted to send this to him. So a little known fact, Sean used to work at the Barnes & Noble in Arlington, Texas. - That's right, eight years. - Which I frequently frequently. - All right, so I'm gonna do the obligatory math question. - Yeah, there you go. - What are you working on now? 'Cause we're done. - We're done. - So I have two IP novels. And one is already in the can. I'm just waiting on edits. And the other one I'm writing right now, which are really fun. You know, I grew up reading movie novelizations and tie-in stuff. So definitely something on my bucket list for a long time. Like I chased this job. - The Conan book? - Oh yeah, I had the Conan story that came out earlier this year. Yeah, it was a little ebook. I can't say what I'm working on now, but not too far afield. But yeah, yeah, I've been playing in that. And kind of waiting to see how sales shake out on the dissonance before we decide what the next, you know, me book is. Because I would like to do a sequel to this. But if the numbers just aren't there at least now, then I've got another idea, you know, just for an original novel that I would like to do. - Here. A question that I'd like to ask is this. What does as a writer, what does success mean to you? What does it look like to you? Or what has to happen in order for you to say to yourself? You know, I feel I'm feeling successful. I feel successful in what I'm doing. A lot of times these column rules, a lot of times these rules can be subconscious until we think about them and realize that we do have these rules. We do have guidelines for what will make us feel this way. It's funny, I've been asking myself that question a lot this year because I've had a book out for the first time since 2019. And it's very different, putting a book out, traditionally published post-COVID. Like it's a different market, it's a different world. And so I think it's easy for me to pretend that I don't have these expectations when I'm working on the book. Because you know, you can kind of shove it out to the side because it's like I'm just focused on writing it or editing it or whatever, you know, but then it's out in the world. And then it's like you're responding to it. I respond to it. Like I'm just a patch of Ron or basically where like anything can feel like I can be at the top of the world if I get a good review or you know, end up in the dumps. Like somebody really well-meaning on Facebook the other day asked me how the book was selling. And I said I wasn't looking at sales numbers yet. And then they said, well, don't give up. I'd give it a C, you know, it's okay. I was like, I didn't ask you if you liked the book. Like what are you doing? I'd give it a C. Yeah, well, he said he gave it a seven out of 10. And I know this person was trying to be friendly. Like he was not trying to be a dick, but like that just didn't mean to. But this is all a long way of saying I don't know what that looks like. I feel like I would like to get to a place where success is me doing my best work and being happy with that regardless of how many copies it sells or whatever, like knowing that I did my best. I did the best version of the thing I can actually control because so much else of the rest, like how much I'm getting paid for it, how many copies are sold. It's not really in my control. I don't decide that, you know. And so I'm trying to get to that place because in truth, what does success look like? It looks like selling millions of copies and getting to go on TV. You know, there's no wrong answer to this question. And everyone answers it a bit differently, you know. But being able to do it full time, you just said, yeah. Yeah, I mean, that would be the dream when that, you know, but I also am realistic and know that I'm not, I don't pretend often enough at this, right? Like I've got to speed up how often I'm pretending to write as Pete would put it to get to that place. And even then it's not a guarantee. And so it's a moving target. I think I'm always going to struggle with it. I would love to find peace with that at some point, but it's not where I'm at currently. And just given how much the world changed between my first and second books, you know, I mean, if it's another five years before my next original novel hits, like the world might look very different then too. So like the target may just change and change and change. But yeah, I think just doing my best work and getting my ego out of the way as far as like what I'm entitled to or what I deserve. I mean, it's okay to hope for those things, but not to feel like I failed if they don't happen. You know what I mean? It's one of those things that I think of as simple, but not easy, you know? Absolutely. Alan, do you remember the name of the actor who played the being who found doctor who, or at least the name of the character so I can look up her name? What's that? No, I'm blanking on it. Telemah, Telemah. Well, maybe you can Google her name if you got a second, if you don't mind. Sure. I, we interviewed her a couple of years back, and I should get her back on because she's a sweetheart and was, it was a wonderful interview. She, this actor played the being that found doctor who in the controversial, you know, found the baby version of doctor who from this parallel universe, or another universe, or whatever, hasn't really been changed. I was close. Tek Teyun. Tek Teyun. And what's the name of the actor? It was, I always, I was blank on it. I'm going to write it down this time. Anyway, she said, we were talking about something similar to this, Sean. And she said, if you want to, I'm going to paraphrase it badly, but something along the lines of, if you want to follow your dreams and pursue your art, you know, full-time, you have to be willing to be poor. And I haven't forgotten that because I thought that those were really wise words. That in we, you know, rich people have a lot of choices. People who aren't rich don't. And sometimes the choice is, do I want to follow this dream and not have as much money? Or do I want to do the nine to five thing forever and pursue a career? And it's not that cut and dry. There are many people who pursue a career that is their art. Alan's an example. My wife's an example, you know, great teachers. Right, but I just thought that was, that was really interesting. And I've not forgotten it since she said that. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it reminds me to that. Thank you, Ceylon Baxter. Yeah. The before I sold my first book, like I wasn't, I was very surprised that I sold a Lovecraftian horror novel to a big four publisher. I'll put it that way. Like I was looking at like, you know, the small press indie horror stuff that I was reading at the time and like, yeah, this, like this is, this is where I would be happy. And I know that there's no money involved in this, you know, like, or if there is, it's very, very little. And so it's, it's a good reminder. It's like, I would have been so happy to have ended up in that space too. So I think that just getting my head on straight and remembering like, that's where I dreamt of being. And like, I ended up in this other space that's really wonderful and amazing and comes with a lot of privilege. But it's not the end of the world if, you know, the career goes a different way. You know, if I do start looking at smaller publishers or contracts or whatever, you know, because, because those are the people who are interested in publishing what I'm most excited about writing be my truest art, right? I think it's very wise to frequently just to have that, to, to remember that and to keep that perspective again, that you would have been happy. If you would have been told 10 years ago, this was all going to happen. You would have been like, holy shit, I hit the big, I'm going to hit the big time. If you'd have been told that Stephen King was going to read your book and have something really nice to say about it, you would have been like, no, that's not going to happen. That can't happen. And it did. You know. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I asked that question with with no judgments when I asked it to any creator. I just think it's an interesting thing to think about. And to, it's an interesting, the different answers that I get are always interesting to me. By the way, for those who are patrons and you haven't seen it yet, or if you're not a patron, I recently did a deep background in the deep background series with John Langen. And it was two and a half hours we chatted and he wants to do a part two, which we're going to do. But we tackled that question as well. And he had some really, you know, well, it's John Langen, right? He had some really interesting things to say about it. So, so yeah, if you're not a patron, it's just five bucks a month. But yeah, I don't get the same answer twice with that question. Pete, you're interested to hear John's answer. Yeah, I'll have to, I'll have to cough up for the, for the Patreon for five bucks. That seems like a bargain. There's a lot of, there's a lot of extra podcasts on that for five bucks a month, especially coming this like four years after I started. The five bucks, bucks a month is you're already got like 150 or whatever it is, podcasts. Wow, you've been busy. Yeah. That's trying to stay busy. Kies me out of trouble. Pete, were you going to say something? Yeah. So as I wind down my, my day job, I got, yeah, that too. Like, you know, maybe I are having this conversation about what, what are you going to do when you retire? And she's very concerned. And what I come to learn is that when she was growing up, her dad only got paid once every six months. Wow. He still made a, he made a decent salary, but he got paid in two lump sums every year. But you got to be disciplined to make sure you kill those pills. Yeah. And so like when they got paid, they had to pay for car insurance for the next six months, medical insurance, you know, car payment, you know, everything like big chunks of this money just went away really, really quickly, because you're paying for everything upfront every six months. And then, you know, like you have to, but you can't do that for like gas and groceries. Right. So you have to be disciplined and realize that, you know, you've got to make this money last, right? That is kind of like, like what writers see. It's like you get a big check, you get a signing bonus. And then you get a publication bonus. And then, you know, you've got to make up your, your, your advances. And then you've got to see little drips and drabs come in. And he's like, if you get an extra 50 bucks this week from some short story, you saw it eight years ago, that's great news. Yeah. It's, it's kind of a, it's a, it's a rough job. You know. It is. Getting back to the success thing for just a second, I was going to say to you, Sean, that I guarantee you, whether it's live now or listening later, that there are writers and beginning writers and not beginning writers listening to this interview thinking, well, if I could just do as well as Sean Hamill has done, I'm going to, that would be awesome. You know, so that's a interesting thing to keep in perspective too. When you have a bad day, you know, how many writers would want to be you? Plenty. Yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm literally getting to live my dream, you know, like the thing I wanted to do, I mean, you know, it comes with other things. I still have the day job and everything, but I am technically doing exactly what I've wanted to do since I was a kid. And that is an incredibly privileged place to be. I'm very lucky. And a lot of, and we all have bad days. I'll be the last person that I'm not judging you or anyone for having a bad day. And God damn it, why can't things just go right? And, you know, why didn't this happen? We're all just human, right? Right. But it also, it also bears mentioning that writers that a lot of creators and writers look up to, like John Lang and like Paul Trimbley, those guys have full-time jobs. You know? So, you know, it's- Let's be clear, Paul had a major movie made, and he's still teaching. Right. Yeah. That blows me away. Yeah. Right. And it also makes me feel a little better too. Exactly. That's my point. Yeah. Yeah. And, Lair does not have a full-time job. Now, without getting into specifics, you know, of a friend, you know, obviously his health is part of that, but before that he didn't have a full-time job either. And I guess that's one of those decisions that you make that Salem Baxter was talking about, you know, make a decision that you want to do this full-time. And maybe it's going to lead to not making as much money. So, who knows? Yeah. Yeah. That's a decision that every creator has to make. You know, do I work some? Do I work full-time? Do I not work? And, you know, the ups and downs with that. And the lack of insurance with that. I mean, yeah. That was the main reason I ended up at the job I have now was I just the person I was married to had some health issues, and we needed insurance as soon as possible. And it's lucky because it's a good job. And it's, you know, I've been with them for seven years and it's what got me back to Texas after COVID and everything where, you know, all my friends and family are. But I'd also be interested, I guess, to know four writers like Laird or, like I recently saw Rachel Harrison, who's, you know, a friend and one of my favorite working horror novelists post something on social media about how she actually does write about eight hours a day. And at most, I like, when I was at Iowa and my job was to write, it was still only about two hours a day. I was at the desk. Like, that was about as long as I could stand to be with myself that way. I assume Rachel doesn't have a job. Not anymore. She's one of those wildly prolific and successful writers. So I think, yeah, she's doing well enough that she can live, you know, she and her partner are living with, you know, they're two occupations. I don't know what he does, but she writes. And, but yeah, I'd be curious to know, like, even without the day job, like how long do most writers actually write? You know, like, I find that for me, the writing goes a little bit better if I actually have something else that's occupying most of my time. And the writing is just very compartmentalized. When the writing became the only thing for me, I kind of lost my mind, like in Iowa for a little while. Like it was, it was scary. I got the worst writers block I'd ever had. You know, cosmology came out of it. There's a happy ending. But, like, for a while, it was really scary. Because it wasn't just this cool side thing I did anymore. It was my job for a while. And I'd be curious to see how they'd play out now if I got another credit card. I would say that every writer and creator answer is that different. I mean, I do this for a living. Do I make a lot of money? No, I do not. And the money that I do make is because I'm lucky enough to have patrons that basically pay me a salary to continue doing this. But I also have insurance because my wife has a full-time job as a teacher. And, you know, there's so many things that come into play. You know, is this writer married? So the other person, you know, Dean Coence's wife told him, "I'll give you five years where you do nothing but write. And if you can't make it by then, you're not going to make it." You know. And he obviously, he did okay. Yeah, he did all right, old Dean. But there's so many different answers to this question, you know. So, yeah. I think the last, on this topic, last thing I'll say is it bears mentioning that guys like Lovecraft who were financially not a success to put it mildly in his day there are many writers, Pete, you have far more knowledgeable about this than I am. But there are many writers that were writing in the same, you know, in the day when Lovecraft was around, sorry, and made quite a bit more money than him that we don't know about or think about much at the very least. Seabury Queen was apparently quite successful. Like you look at Lynn Carter or Fritz Leiber, they basically were still making the same pay rate that they were making when they were young. Fritz Leiber, notorious city was living in like in a garage garret, still writing on the edge of his bed with the typewriter. William F. Nolan the same way, you ended up living in somebody's basement. What I took with Salen had to say about you have to be willing to be poor. It doesn't mean you're always going to be, but you have to be willing to be. And another way to look at that is you have to be willing to have very low overhead. You know, Fritz Leiber, that's a really good example of that. Yeah. And we talked about this, a bunch of us talked about this at Necronomicon. There's a difference between writing and the business of writing. Very much. The business of writing is completely different, you know, particularly if you're writing short stories. I mean, I've got to build a bibliography, track those stories, make sure I get paid, track when I can be allowed to reprint that story, and send it out again. It is a whole other job just to manage your writing. It is, but bears mentioning, compare yourself to Sean here, who writes novels, doesn't really send out short stories, right? No, I would like to get into that game, though. But you're right. You're very prolific, Pete. You send out a ton of short stories, and that does entail a lot of work keeping track of. Right. But it's a whole separate business, a whole separate career, to manage your writing. And you've got to go into it knowing that, or you learn very quickly that you're out of control. I made the mistake that during COVID, I stopped tracking my stories, and it's what, 2024? I just updated my bibliography the week before Necronomicon. And that was a huge mistake, because it took me, I completely forgot some stories. So, yeah, I remember a bunch of people at Necronomicon, we were deeply, deeply ashamed of Pete for not having his bibliography. Didn't he give us a story, Kathy? No, I can't, but you know, well, is it stories by me, or is it stories with other people? Oh, like Lovecraft? No. Go ahead, Peter. I'm sorry. Yeah, you write a lot. You do. How many short stories have you written? Who me? Yeah, you. I have no idea. 500? No, hold on. At least several hundred, minimum. Four hundred. Sean, this is just... Necronomicon is so fun, so laid back, you're with your own geeky people, if that makes sense, and you got to go. It really is a lot of fun. You got to consent. I've been wanting to get a word. Hey, we can fly together. Yeah, yeah. We're both going to fly from DFW, man. That's true. Yeah, yeah, let's circle back a little closer, too. But yeah, I would... You got two years to plan, so you got plenty. Exactly. No excuses to plan and save. And no, it's... Well, so one of the nice things about the release for this book, so when I released Cosmology in 2019, every event I did, I pretty much did by myself. And there's been a shift, I guess, towards most author events. They try to have somebody in conversation with the writer now. And so I've gotten to meet and hang out with so many cool writers this summer. And just people who like... I don't know. It just reminded me how much I've been missing by not being more a part of these communities that I'm technically a part of. It gives you a lot of energy back, doesn't it? It does. It absolutely does. I got to moderate for Gabbino Iglesias a couple of weeks ago, and that... I practically could have floated out of the bookstore. It was just so nice. And he's such a sweetheart. But yeah, yeah, I would like to go to more things and be more a part of the horror or fantasy geek communities. By the way, keep me in mind when you do that. If you don't mind, if you you're talking to some money and you think they could benefit by being on this, tell them about it or tell me and I'll contact them or whatever. Yeah. Once we're off, Mike, I've got a name for you, actually. Pete, do you have a number for us? I do have a number. There are 150 distinct data points in the published page. There are... What we should really do is we should really put this in Obsidian, and then we could have a... You've used Obsidian, right, Alan? Yes. And then, so you know what I mean, the graph pages on Obsidian, where every point that links to every other point, which would happen to a lot in Pete's stories, would be linked. Be like having your own small internet of your stories with hyperlinks. Well, that's what somebody did for Laird and it's online. I can't remember his name, I shouldn't know his name, but yeah. That sounds like geeky stuff that I do using 3x5 cards in stream. It's exactly like that. But it's exactly like that. When I was outlining the dissonance, I'm just saying. I still have it rolled up someplace. I timeline the entire novel before I wrote it, and it was like 25 pages long. I had to string it up on the wall. A forest died that day. Because I had to see it, and then there's the timeline, and then there's the pieces that go around. It's like, "Okay, this is linked to that." That's what you can do with Obsidian, only you're not killing any trees, and it looks a lot cooler. I need to see it holistically. I guess the last question I have for you, Sean, is what have you read lately, like the last few months that you've enjoyed that you'd like to tell people about? Well, so I actually am just finishing up so thirsty. You can't see it because of my background. So thirsty by Rachel Harrison, her new novel, her vampire novel, comes out tomorrow, actually, from when we're recording. I think if you put it in front of your face, in front of your body, there you go. It keeps adjusting for it. Yeah. Sorry, Rachel, I tried. But yeah. Was it titled again? So thirsty? So thirsty. Okay. Yeah. And if you are in the Dallas Fort Worth area on Friday night, I am moderating a conversation with her at the Dallas Half Price books. So I'm very excited about that. Which one? The mothership story, the big one. I can give you the address if you want it, but I don't remember it off the top of my head. But I read that. I also really enjoyed Gubino Iglesias's new book, House of Bone and Rain was terrific. I am reading V Castro's new short story collection. In the pink agave hotel, I believe it's called. I got an arc of that and it's really a lot of fun. Like it's short stories in a novella and it's very sexy and scary. So it's really a lot of fun. I really like her writing. And I also recently read a novella by L.P. Hernandez called, I believe it's called In the Valley of Headless Men. And I think that one might have. Yeah, yeah, it's really, really good. And I believe his short story collection just ended up on Esquire's like best horror of the year so far. I think it's called like no gods only chaos. I may have that wrong. I apologize L.P. if I got that wrong. But I haven't read that yet. But the novella was really, really good. And definitely. Yeah, no gods only chaos. I just looked up for you. Yeah. But yeah, I really like his stuff. And I think he is has just started a new press, which is really exciting, picking up from one of the. Let me see. Holy crap, no gods only chaos looks really good to me. Yeah, yeah. It's. Yeah, I luckily L.P. I was one of the he moderated my event in San Antonio. So I got to get him to sign my copies or copy of that one. And I am looking forward to diving in maybe spooky season. So I'm sure I'm forgetting a ton of stuff. But that's just some stuff that springs to mind immediately. I appreciate the recommendations, especially that one. Because that just me personally, the kind of stuff I like. Yeah, yeah, I talk on Amazon. That's a good. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I got the I just bought the Kindle version, which was pretty inexpensive. I think that's because there was something to do with the publisher. Like it came from one of those smaller horror publishers that went under recently and dark region. I think so. And there you go. He is working on the conversation right there. Yeah, yeah. I don't know enough to to speak authoritatively. But I do believe that he has partnered with someone else to start a new press and that his collection will be back in physical print soon. But it is still very much available as an ebook, inexpensive ebook at that. It's not dark regions. It's something called so bellow books. Well, that's second edition, though. Yes, he just found it. Well, anyway, anyway, not to the other recommendations are great too. I'm going to rewind this and write those down later on. But no gods only chaos is up my personal alley. Just reading the synopsis. So thank you for that recommendation. Of course. So guys, anything else for Sean before we let him get back to his evening? No, you'll get into hours now. Yeah, exactly. Thanks for doing this, Sean. Appreciate it, man. Of course. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, you too. Let's get together soon so I can get that book signed for you. That'd be great. Yeah, again, it's as it's called the dissonance. It's definitely worth you picking up and reading. It's available in print and Kindle. And it's also available on Audible if you're an audiobook person, which I spent the credit on it on Audible myself. So bear that in mind. And if you're not a patron, help keep me gone. There's more than the $5 level, but I'll just talk about that one just really briefly for now. All of the podcasts, the Patreon only podcasts are available at that $5 level. So you really are getting a lot for five bucks. So yeah, I hope you think about it. The link is in the show notes. Got a new spruce up the store and got another store. If you'd like some Lovecraft easing swag, t-shirt or coffee mug or Alan's work of art titled Joe Polver welcomes Rick Lee to Carcosa, which my coffee mug is on its way for that too. So and my shirt. You got a mug too that Alan and I'm sending you a shirt. Yeah, it's on its way. I have the shirt. The mug. The mug, I'm sure, is on its way. The shirt is not but it's in, I'm making sure it's a mite. Yeah, yeah, it is. It's on my list. Otherwise it gets forgotten. Oh man, getting old. Yeah, I have started having to use my calendar much more than I did in my 30s and 20s. I can't remember things anymore. Oh, you remember Indiana Jones in The Last Crusade, where his father's like, right, he writes down everything, the book, Sean Connery, and Harrison Ford's like, you don't remember. And Sean Connery's like, I wrote it down, so I would have to remember. It's wisdom. Exactly. All right. Yeah, never mind. I'll tell you guys later. What? Well, no, there's this. So I had a chemistry and a physics professor who made it very clear, and this is very early in my career, that they were not going to make us remember any formulas or any part of the periodic table, because we wrote it down. Someone asked Einstein one time about, I think it was the speed of light. What's the speed of light, Mr. Einstein? He goes, I don't know, I don't keep that stuff in my head. If I need to, no, I just look it up in my book. You know, why do I need to keep it in my head? It's good enough for Einstein people. There are more important things to keep in your head, like the lyrics to American pie. Right. That is important. That is important. If not the most important thing. So, so anyway, Sean, we can leave you with anything. If we leave with anything, it would be this, bye, bye, this American pie. That's what we leave you with. Thanks for watching, everybody. Thanks to all the Patreons out there. Thank you, Sean, for doing this. Alan and Pete, thanks for being here. And we will see you all. Well, some of you will see me tomorrow night at nine for horror readings. So, we'll see you then. Have a good night, everybody. [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music]
