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With a three-part season premiere of that, this one's going to stay 9-1-1 all new Thursdays 8-7-10 on ABC and Stream on Hulu. Sephora stores are everywhere you are, so just pop in when you need a brown lip to match your 90s playlist, a confidence boost before your interview, or a last-minute gift for Mom's birthday. There's always a Sephora near you, just pop in, use our store locator to find your local Sephora or Sephora at calls. This episode of The Birdshot Podcast is presented by Onyx Hunt, the number-one GPS hunting app, and Final Rise, premium quality made in USA hunting vests and field apparel, and Upland Gun Company, custom-built and fit handcrafted Italian shotguns. Hey everybody, welcome to episode number 290 of The Birdshot Podcast. We are back this week with part 2 of our conversation with Ann Janderna. More gross and woodcock hunting Q&A on the way in just a minute. Thank you to Patreon patrons of The Birdshot Podcast, everybody out there making contributions in support of the show to keep these conversations coming your way, I really appreciate it, those patrons are eligible for some giveaways, some bonus content, exclusive discounts, and The Birdshot Podcast canned coolers and stickers. You can learn more and sign up at patreon.com/birdshot. If you love the show, you want to help us out, you can always leave a rating, review, subscribe to the show, make sure you click that subscribe or follow button, don't miss any upcoming episodes, share an episode somewhere, or tell a friend, it's hunting season, lots of people have lots of windshield time, we appreciate that too. Alright, I'm back home this week, finished up my annual prairie trip, which was as enjoyable as ever, we explored some new territory, found birds, got some dog work, had pretty reasonable weather for early season on the prairie, and zero complaints. It was a fantastic trip and one that I pretty much look forward to every year from the minute I get home until the minute I leave about a year from now. Sharptail grouse are on the menu this week at home, I'm working up my favorite Sharptail taco recipe, which is one that I might have to share at some point, here a lot of people talk about how they don't like Sharptails, or they will ask how to cook them. I am not overly picky when it comes to my wild game and I am not a skilled cook or chef, but the Sharptail taco recipe that I prepare using my Instant Pot is incredibly simple, and not only do I like it, but my wife and my kids like it too, so it must be alright. So if anybody out there listening thinks that would be of interest, maybe I could put together a little clip or video or something to share that recipe, which I will say is adapted from Hank Shaw's wonderful turkey-like carnitas recipe, which is amazing, but way too complex for Nick to commit to and pull off regularly, so I have taken that and simplified it as much as humanly possible and have arrived at my simple Sharptail taco recipe slash turkey-like taco recipe, because I use the same thing for turkey legs and again, I think it's phenomenal. So if you never tried it and you're on the fence about whether or not you like Sharptails or turkey legs, we should talk. Alright, enough about Sharptail grouse, today we are talking rough grouse and woodcock, we are finishing up our annual conversation with Ann Janderna, we've got another hour or so of question and answer with our good friend and owner and founder of Scout and Hunt Mapping. I hope you all are learning something, taking some tips and tricks out into the field with you as we inch ever closer to prime time in the grouse woods, we're a long way from it right now. It's very hot and dry in the woods, but cooler temps are on the horizon, so this information will be coming in handy very soon. So with that said, let's jump back in and finish up our conversation on the birdshot podcast with Ann Janderna. Alright, that rounds out that section. I'm on my second Mountain Dew note. Alright, my gun dog grind coffee is gone and I don't have a Mountain Dew that I can reach for, but at least Ann is fueled. Well, why I'm jabbering, you can go grab stuff. Well, I'm good. I do have a beer, but being that it's 1045 in the morning, I think I'll save that for happy hour, but we're good. Alright, so we're going to move into these are more hunting related questions. And first one is, I'd like to hear Ann's opinion on the wet summer, how chick survival rates might be, how the wet conditions change, your hunting strategy, do you think the rain this year in northern Wisconsin will have an effect on grass? This is a few different questions, everything related to one thing we didn't talk about at the beginning, which I had intended to do, but let's just do it now, sort of last season into these crazy non winter that we had here in the Great Lakes. And we saw increased drumming counts indicating good winter adult survival through the winter over winter because it was so warm and so mild. I know you you experienced that in your area as well and it was set up well for lots of adults in the woods and a good spring, um, brooding and nesting season. And then the concern on everybody's mind at this point before we've all hit the woods for hunting season is in some areas, we did get some, some pretty heavy June rain, some isolated, really heavy, um, multi multiple inch rain events, but your thoughts on, on that and, and, or concerns, if any. I think there's a couple things that I would say here. Um, first off, don't stake drumming counts are a guide and that's it. Yeah. Um, the problem is, and most people don't realize that these birds will drum multiple times within two or three minutes. So it runs up the numbers on the counts and it makes an area look better than what it actually is, um, the case and point was back many years ago, if we remember, Wisconsin went up 25% and it was very interesting. The next year it went down 25%. Um, and when looking at those drumming counts, it was one place that through the whole scenario off because it went from like normal 40, 50, 60 to up over 130. And that changed the percentage overall of the increase. So, but that tells you a good, good habitat. You had a good time, good, you know, time for doing drumming counts, but if someone says that they're super high, I'm not saying don't go there, but taper your expectations. Uh, because just having the drumming is such, it's such a small factor, really, in the overall life of having eggs, having them hatch, having, uh, the fatality that these birds need to survive and, or is there a predator concentration? You know, the key is is how, you know, if you can get some feedback is how many birds are seeing in a brood. If they tell you that they're only seeing five, six, seven, it's average. If you start getting more birds in a brood, that's helpful, really helpful. Um, but, you know, as far as the rain, um, what you need to do is, let me pick it up here. The vegetation drought response index, veg dry, you can go into the animation section and you can go in there and it has a slider at the end. And what you can do is you can, um, and I'm going to copy this link here. You can go and you can see what, uh, what the changes were and the rainfall amounts and all of that so that you can look at the nation as a whole. And if you just need to just, just hit, you know, refresh on that and the slider will start and you'll see it start in gray, which means it's out of season and you can look at the rainfall amounts, you know, you know, the concentration and the colors as it shows the amount of rain, any particular area received. And that'll help you, you know, determine one time of the year that that rain came. So for a lot of us in the upper Midwest, when you look at this, it was toward the end of June when things started to like for around June 23rd up in Minnesota was the biggest amount of the problems. And so, and then you can see how quickly it dried out as well. So that will give you an idea. End of June, it depends on where the hen was, but that was a small area in, it was like a small area up in Minnesota that had that happen. A lot of our rains in our area were farther south because how quickly it drains off and returns to white or goes to yellow, which means, you know, drought in these maps. So if it was already dry to begin with, that helped everything, which it was dry to begin with. And so I think you have to look at it. It's a lot of factors that play into this. It's not just the drumming, it's okay, drumming's the first start, but predators of the hens on the nest, you know, I've seen gone and been watching eggs and the, and the hen and just seeing her and then all of a sudden I don't see her, they go over there and you see crows and they're grabbing the eggs out of the nest, and she's on the backside of the nest with being killed, having been killed from a weasel. So there's just so many factors that lead to what we end up with before, you know, before the season and during the season. Can I? I still have this. Okay, here we go. Now I'm, I still have this bookmark from, from last year. Yeah. And I was wondering. Okay. Yeah, I got the link and I've, and I've watched the animation is really cool. And I was wondering how I could zoom in. So you kind of, you can go to, so if you go to, if you go to the animations, you can't, I wish you could stop that slider. You can't. But what I just did is I went to the archive. So if you go to the archive, then you can pick what date you wanted to read. And then you. That was my next place. Yeah. Download the, download the map. Now I can zoom in. June 23rd. That's what I'm looking at. This is awesome. So if I look at like where I'm typically hunting, I basically see almost all white. Despite those, those, you know, we had those rain events. I mean, the thing that I always was in the back of my mind was it was warm. I remember, I specifically remember the night that some areas close, we got, got eight inches of rain. It was such a warm rain. My kids and I, we were out just basically like, it was crazy how much it was raining, but it was warm. So it wasn't like a cold, wet rain, but yeah, if I look at this and now, now I can flip through the every seven days and put one out, I see a lot of white over a good beach, the Grouse country. And you'll see how quickly, you know, because when you look at that June 23rd, that was the start of when, in Minnesota, when they were having the rain and, you know, you go from the 23rd, June 20th, that little green spot got a lot smaller. Yeah. And you go to, you know, the July 7th, it's still there, but I mean, that area is just a tiny little spot there. But that's the thing. Here's the work. It's tiny. Yeah. You know, there's a few other little spots, but you know, it's as a whole, it's a very small percentage of the Northwoods of Minnesota. Yeah. And I mean, it's, like you said, it's just one of the, there's so many variables, but like does a, you know, what is the, what is the potential risk of a, you know, let's say it's June 20th and you get eight inches of rain, like, are we flooding out a little group of chicks and they're just drowning in water or like, can they not hop up into the bush? I mean, what is, what's the risk? Well, within, there's, it's where the hen has them. Right. If she's, if she's having to spend the night in the tag holder, that's a problem. If she's up in the, more of a flat, consistent area of an aspen cut, she, there's a better chance of survival, but is it a sandy cut or is it gravel, you know, drain off quick or is it clay? And now you're going to have potholes of water in different places. And it depends, is the bird in a downy stage or is it started to develop to feathers? So in a very short period of time, those birds fly. Yeah. Can they move on their own? You know, that end of, that would be a really late season hatch. Even if it hatched between the first two weeks of June, that's there, there are a couple weeks old at that point. Yeah. So there's a better chance. I mean, the one thing is that a couple weeks, they're not going to be able to really hide under mother that much, because there are too many of them, they're too big. So mother will probably try to take them somewhere. I mean, they could end up underneath a fallen log, you know, backed by the root system. Be totally fine. So it's just, it's, I think you need to look at the area. When did it happen? Of course. How long did it last? Think about the soil up in that area and you get up around all those swamps, you know, but if you're in more of a gravely area or a sand, you know, it's not as, it's not as a dire of a situation. Yeah. And if it's a warm rain, that's also good. It's less. Yeah, less, less concerning than, than if it were wet and 50 degrees and cool for two days in a row, which it really wasn't by my observation. So yeah, and again, I mean, how many people change like their annual growls camp based on this stuff? It's something to observe. And of course, we're all paying attention and it will, we will find out what the woods look like soon enough. But this is a, what we do and what we do and we didn't have the internet. Right. Right. Yeah, we didn't have math to look at and we just went and hunted, right? Yeah. That's, that's what we need to do. This is a cool, the, it's a, it's a, I will for sure link this in the, in the show notes. It's a, it's a neat way to look at it. And really, I'm like, what I see in the woods right now, they're, they're, we've dried out. We've dried out quite a bit from when we had a lot of rain earlier in the year and I look at this map and I see a lot of white. So it makes sense. Well, it's, if you look at the map, go on the map and look at it back. And May 5th is pure white up there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We were very dry to start. And then you get almost no snow. There was like, there was like no melt off, basically. Well, April 7th, we were in a drought in the western part, central to western UP and then the northern part of Wisconsin. Yeah. I see a lot, a lot of red and yellow there. Yeah. Yeah. So do you guys had more snow farther up for a little bit in that area? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was, we'll see. I don't know if we'll ever have another, how long it will be to have another winter like that, but that was, it was unusual and it sure made the late season grouse hunting. Excellent. Oh, yeah. It does. That's been getting a lot of training done. Yes. I bet. All right, when the wind, when we know the winds are blowing and the grouse are spooked, when they seem to be jumping up ahead of you and the dog, how would you approach the woods and work a cut? What are they doing the wind then? A lot of them go down in the low spot and let it go over the top of them. And when there's a lot of wind, I hug closer to, to, you know, the tall, the edges with the tall trees, say the winds coming from the West and typically, depending on how big the cuts, that's where narrow cuts really work out nice because it goes right over the top and then, boom, right, it's already, it doesn't have a chance to drop down. But you need to find someplace where it's quiet. It's no different with heat. You need to find someplace where it's cooler. I mean, the wind, you're going to feel on your face, the coolness you'll feel when you're in a low area, you can just feel the temperature difference, but go to where it's quiet and think about what would settle the grouse. You know, that's, that's the biggest thing. I would go to what's going to settle the grouse. Where is it going to be quiet, where it could hear a predator coming before it gets right up on them and that the winds are going over the top. Yeah. So, and that one, it kind of works twofold. It's like basically go wherever it's the most pleasant for you. Like do is do whatever you can to get out of the wind because if it's windy and the brushes clanging around, like you can't hear that you can hardly hear the dog. You're not going to hear the bird flush. The grouse is going to be more on alert for all those same reasons. So if you can, whatever you can do to get yourself out of the wind, you're going to put yourself, the conditions will be better for you and the grouse will be less likely to be as spooked. Right. It's a comfort thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It makes, it makes total sense. I mean, then they're, they rely so much on their hearing. And when the wind takes that away, they're just naturally going to be at the first side of a visual disturbance. They're out of there. Right. All right. Our birds still going to be on marsh edges this year, like they would be in a dry year. So we kind of talked about, I mean, things are kind of drying out and we've, we've woven in a lot of conversation about looking early season. Yeah. Where is it cool and where the heat is going to push them down to start out with. Yeah. But I think they'll move up because it's dry, but it's not so dry that, you know, all the places are drying up. I mean, I'm seeing, you know, the Aspen leaves coming down for sure. I still think you're going to, because of the heat, be down along the lower edge where it's cooler. Top edges are never a bad idea. No, no, only when there's a lot, a lot of water. Sure. Sure. Yeah. Okay. How often do you think grouse run when hearing dog bells or noise versus holding tight? Well, I can tell you from guiding that it only takes three times to really educate a bird. That's all it's going to take. These birds are on the low end of the totem pole. So everything wants to eat them along with the snowshoe here. You know, it's, you condition them, they condition very quickly. So that's a hard one to really to answer whether there's dog bells or just noise. It's both, both of them are noise. The dog bell will probably get a moving quicker possibly, but for you and your dog, if that's how you hunt, you know, it's, it's, it is how you hunt. Are you hunting in a high pressured area or a place where these birds are constantly being moved that can cause all of this to happen very quickly. I mean, how many times have we shut the door and I've seen birds flush, you know, and I have to tell the people, you know, to, you know, to basically don't slam the door. So, it's, I don't know, I can't attribute everything to bells and I can't attribute everything to, you know, noise, but noise in general will cause any bird to move. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, I don't know if this, this question was if it was more, and I have, I have a follow up question for you, which is maybe what the person was getting at, which is basically and do you, do you run bells on your dogs and if, if we're whichever way, why? I'll condition any pup to bells, but mine are close enough that I don't use any track and color unless I'm in an area that I'm not familiar with, but where I train and where I run the dogs and where I hunt, I don't do bells, but you know, I know I hunt different than a lot of people. I mean, I want my dogs right on the edge and not being able to see them is where I like them to hold and that's just me, you know, because so many times I'm training a young dog and, you know, they're going to do something. And that's what the clients wanted to for the hunts is right there because not every client could go through the woods like I could, you know, it's, you know, I, my background's on hunting, but it's also I used to do production timber, timber marking and you had to move. So it's, it's just a lot of its personal preference. I know out east they use more bells than they do here in the Midwest. So yeah, yeah, I think I run bells and I like the feedback that I get from it, but I haven't thought about it a lot. If my dogs were kind of like closer and, and more in visual contact like you're describing, I don't know that, I don't know that I would wear woodrow. I don't think of I saw them. If I saw them that much, I just don't think I would need the same feedback from the bell. Right. And in what I see is, is everyone has a different way they like to run dogs. Yeah. No, one way it's what that's your preference. You know, am I going to try to say everyone needs to run their dog is the way I do know, but if, you know, if someone wants to it, then you learn about it. But for, you know, everything I do has stem from guiding. And I guess I'd say I'm in a rut because of it. Well, the other thing I would, I mean, I do run bells on my dogs all day, every day, and we get plenty of gross pointed. So it's not like, yeah, if that was the question, like, you know, a bell is not going to prevent you from getting gross pointed. So well, I ran bells too when I was guiding because it was more for the client. Yeah. You know, you could listen to the bell and the rhythm of the bell and the cadence and when that cadence went bang, bang, it's like something's up. Mm hmm. Yeah. You know, it starts getting spaced apart. For many upland hunters, along with their passion for dogs, birds and the places we chase them comes a passion for shotguns. Upland gun company specializes in customizing shotguns for the Upland bird hunter imported from Italy and shipped direct to an FFL near you. Select from one of their side by side are over under shotgun platforms and customize the fit function and aesthetics to your liking, design and build your next upland hunting shotgun with upland gun company today, visit uplandguncompany.com. 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If you're ready to take your shooting to the next level, check out truelockchokes.com and discover why bird hunters all across the uplands trust True Lock Choke Tubes. All right, how to deal with hunting pressure and still find birds. So if you end up in an area that you think is pretty pressured, what are you doing? Well, let's just say you're stuck, like, oh, I only get to hunt that. There's vehicles everywhere else and you come to this cut and everything. What I would do first off, you're going to see where people part, where the dogs have been. Hopefully you won't find feathers that people decide to breast them out right next to where the truck is, which is a no, no, and very disrespectful and nasty. I'm talking to whoever does that. Yeah. So the dog is going to get into that and they're going to roll around in that stinky stuff and all that. I mean, it's just disrespectful as far as I'm concerned, but anyways, you're going to look at where where people are walking, where are they going in, then look at the map or look at the cover in the imagery or whatever and find the back part of the cut and find the low side. Go in if you can, it may be some cross country or maybe you go in so far and then break out to the left and then swing around, hit that edge and then come back and make it like a J hook because they're going to push them to the back of the cut. That's what's going to happen. If they have a bad dog, it won't be a big deal, but these birds will come back. In case and point was one time when I was guiding, there was a small 14, 15 acre parcel. And there was, if you think about, you know, you see these birds when they like, oh, they're flying out of the county. You know, type of thing when they get flushed. Well, I told Skip to go into that cut in the morning. And I had a client with me that I had guided for a long time. And I told him, I said, hey, Jan, I want to come back in on this cut and we'd already had a good day. So it wasn't a big deal. And I said, I want to see if the birds have come back. No, Skip moved 14 and this was, this was a cut, you know, this was like 2010, been moved 14 birds and three or four of them were woodcock, the rest were grouse. And so we had met at lunch, I got the stats from him and it tallied up. I had hunted that, hunted that cut enough to know, you know, what it typically holds. And I said, did the birds fly to the swamp? He says, yeah. Okay. That's what I need to know. Coming back in and we had, we had seven or eight, you know, flushes on birds and a couple of them were short flushes, but they had come back and on three sides of the cut, it was a clear cut. So it was like this little pocket of habitat and the rest was just clear cut. And the clear cut was probably two to three years old, but really trashy. It's not what you wanted to go into. And they were flushing to the swamp. So I was surprised they were in a hurry to come back because really that was the only habitat they had. So I do believe the birds come back. If they don't have a lot of habitat, they're going to come back to what they like. If they have habitat and they just flush to another bit of habitat, then they don't come back. And so I basically, you know, I look at what habitat are they going to look. If they get pushed, what could they be pushed into? Is there another cut nearby? Are they going to push and make a flight and land, do they decide to come back or are they going to go on, you know, truck over to this another little patch? So you know, they've got to feed. And when they're in something that they, you know, it's like, why would I be swenching my time in the swamp during 10 o'clock and 12 o'clock in the morning? I want to go back to where I was. So that's the best I can explain it. Yeah, if you've, and I would just add, I mean, if you, if you have, if you're, if you end up in a spot where it looks like it's getting a lot of hunting pressure, whether it's, you know, shotgun casings or truck tracks or whatever it is, you know, that's maybe the time to branch out and, and look what's nearby. Like you're, like you're saying, you know, step outside of the cut, see what, see what's adjacent to it, what a butts up to it and go with it. I remember a day that I was hunting, so I've been two years ago, I had, I hunted over and I was in the UP for a day hunting and we were totally hunting in new areas. So you're kind of, you don't have this, you know, super in-depth knowledge of everything. We went to a spot, parked two trucks. My buddies went one way and I was going to go up and I was actually using scout and hunt. And I had located a cut on the scout and hunt map and I, I walked up there and I, so I walked up the road like a hundred yards just so we could park in the same spot and get up there. And it was a hunter walking trail and this is, this is early November. And so I kind of was like, oh man, like, you know, how much is this, this place been hunted. And that was kind of my, my thought. So I had my young dog and fortunately we had a, it was a good day. We had a lot of time. I got in there at the hunter walking trail, went right through a perfect air quotes, perfect aspen cut. I mean, it was prime age, everything, everything was right about it. And we, my dog pointed one grouse in there and we would, we had done quite a bit of walking, but we were not getting into the amount of birds that I felt I should have. So I pulled up the map, scout and hunt and I could see there was a, there was a cedar swamp. And then on the other side of that, there was another aspen cut. So we, I made the decision and I was, I'm bringing back memories. I love that I was just by myself, just me and my dog could kind of, I love when you can just kind of go wherever you want to go in the woods. Right. And so we crossed the cedar swamp, which was tough, man, a Michigan cedar swamp. It was like, it was pretty gnarly to get through there. I had to help my dog over some spots and we, I wasn't trying to spend a lot of time in there. I was just looking for the direct route across, but we got across, we got into the other aspen cut. And right away my dog was into birds and the density of grouse in that aspen cut compared to the other aspen cut that I assume was more pressured because of the access and the hunter walk-in trail. Those birds probably just got kind of pushed over there. We had a, we had a great hunt that day. Right. It's, it's part of going back to doing the homework. Yeah. Before you get there because then you have opportunities and you don't, you can just, especially if it's heating up during the day or you're, you just, you need to know what's around you. So you have options when something falls through the crack. Yeah. That, having that knowledge of, of the cover in the woods in your pocket is incredibly helpful when you're making those on the fly decisions. Okay. Uh, oh, I almost missed this one. How have grouse changed since you first started guiding hunting? If any, I will add there's less birds and I can tell you that when you look at the county lands here in the state lands, whether it be Michigan, Minnesota or Wisconsin, there's the same amount of harvesting going on. Um, because I, I've checked that like 25 years, 25 years back. Of course, the federal lands is less. It's picked up some, but not a lot. And then what's happening with some of the commercial forest lands or the MFL forest crop is that a lot of it, you know, the owners are like, oh, but it's pretty to see pines. So a lot of times they end up in a plantation, which most anything's, anything going through, it has to basically pack us, pack a lunch and go to someplace else. So you're not getting as many clear cuts from those types of habitat sources. But I would say, you know, there's more pressure on the birds in that when you have less birds, the birds that you do have are getting more and more pressure. So it's like, you don't have a lot of birds to spread the pressure out amongst otherwise now a lot of these birds are getting double triple time. So remember when I said about three times in these birds learned? They now better learn really quick. So we have more birds running, which sort of changes the style of hunting and how you're doing things. And it's not about how fast you can run through the woods that behind the dog, because you don't have, you need a savvy dog is what I'd say is a dog that works sent and is comfortable and doesn't panic when you have to relocate point, relocate point in this good, and you have to be even better as a hunter of reading the habitat and what's ahead. Yeah. Otherwise, you're just letting them make a straight run to the swamp. You know, it's, that's, you know, that's what I saw was frustrating, you know, so tie into another question farther, but I think honestly there is less birds than what there was in 2009, 2010, 2011, 12, somewhere in there. Do you keep, I meant to ask you this earlier, but do you, do you keep logs and journals and stuff like specifically do your flush counts and everything or do you not get that detailed? No, not on that, it's, it's sort of like the map thing. I can tell you what it, like I do more of drumming counts and, you know, like if within four minutes of male drums twice, there's a hand there, just, it just is, you know, you need to stop watch when you're doing drumming counts, but it's really difficult. It's impossible. I'm not reflecting on the people that helped do drumming counts, but you just don't know if you're getting double time because you're having to take care of multiple drummers. Right, right. But I will go into an area and I want to know. So I have documentation for that. I keep, and I know by going there in the springtime, okay, this is active right here. And then this is active right here. And then I'll go and find some new places. And I've kept track of that a lot. But I have the ability to go when I step out my door and I can hear drumming going on, it means I need to go check the other areas that I go to because the weather is just right. And I keep track of that. And then knowing my drumming counts, then I know where I want to hunt late season, which cuts the time out with a young dog because, you know, you're not going to take them on this huge, I want them in birds. I don't want to be traveling around the woods. I want to get them on contact, you know, even if it's just sent, sent, sent and practiced the layup, no, as far as, you know, I can, you know, the land yard and all of that, I don't do that. I did it for the clients because they were excited to know, you know, how many woodcock, how many grouse, all of that. I mean, back then I kept a lot of, you know, information written down. But now what I'm keeping written down is more, okay, didn't hear anything in this cut in this spring this year, but I'll come back. When I hear drumming going on, I'll go check cuts that I haven't heard anything. Or I go to check a cut to see if it's the same or it's more or it's less birds. You know, because once one's drumming, the rest of them are going to drum because they're advertising the area for the hen. Okay. Yeah, I was just curious. I always find it interesting what sort of what people keep track of and what observation it's making. No, no, no, it was good. I did want to ask you before we move on from this one, like the woodcock. So like you'll hear people talk about a woodcock run more than they used to and I have some thoughts on that, but you've been doing this a lot longer and you've been running dogs for way longer than I have. What do you buy into that? Do you think woodcock run more now than they used to? What are your thoughts? Well, it could be, I think woodcock that are residents can, if they get pressured, will run. Definitely. I think the ones that come in from the flights run less because they're not getting the pressure way up north, but I honestly think your resident woodcock's learned to run. And I've seen that, but it's the time of years when I'm seeing it. Yeah. You know, and once those flights start coming in, it's a lot different because, you know, they made a flight. They're tired. You know, I've seen them where they wouldn't even want to, you know, flush or they move a little bit. They go, they go 10 yards or five yards or, yeah, just up and back down. So I think you almost feel, you almost feel guilty shooting them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's about bird that I'm probably not shooting. I've started, I shoot at a lot less woodcock than I, than I did when I first got pointing dogs and I've said it many times before I kind of, I've gone, I went through it and I've seen other people go through it sort of the woodcock honeymoon phase when you have no idea what you're doing with a pointy dog and they start to figure out those wood cock. It's, it's a beautiful thing. I love it. Oh, yeah. It's time to take pictures. Yes. Yeah. But, but I was going to say I, so I am much more likely to, so first of all, I've been running pointy dogs for 10 years. So like Nick Larson and before that, I didn't really hunt woodcock. So I can't say that woodcock run more than they used to because I just said, I don't have the history with it. What I can say is that woodcock do run. I've seen, I've seen my dog track and point and relocate and eventually flush the woodcock to know that yes, they do run. How that equates to 40 years ago, I don't know. But my default in that situation would be that it's probably, it's some other factor. You know, it's, it's maybe you're comparing a resident bird to a, to a flight bird like you're talking about others or there used to be, you know, maybe there was, you flushed 50 woodcock one day and it seemed like there was one everywhere and they weren't running, but maybe they were running, but you just didn't notice through all 50 flushes or something. Lots of factors. Woodcock do run. Do they run more now than they used to? I have no idea. Yeah. The other thing too is when you have less grouse, I mean, I suppose something could sneak up on a woodcock predator wise, you know, everything with less grouse or even less hairs, those animals are going to go after the predator part is going to go after other things. Sure. You know. All right. Next question. Best tactics for hunting grouse without a dog. What would you do? And you'd probably stay home. Fine. Really. Good habitat. Yeah. Listen, walk, listen, walk, they get nervous when they, you stop, you know, because they'll be like trying to listen as well and good eyesight as well. Good luck. Mark them. If you shoot them. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yep. That's what I would say. I mean, if I go back in my mind to the, to the dogless days, which there were, there were a lot of days like that. That's how I hunt them for a long time slower, the slow, as slow as you can go without driving yourself insane. You're stalking. Yeah. Exactly. Yep. Okay. What kind of boots does Ann prefer? All these miles you're logging out there and what kind of boots are you wearing? Well, I try all sorts of different boots and I make sure I've got three or four different pairs. But once you break them in too much, you don't have the support off of them. Right now I'm looking at a pair of the LL Bean guide boots and I like them and still having a little trouble finding the right sock to go with it. Not that it's abrasive or anything, but it's, I have trouble, my feet, I'm almost in between the size. That's the problem. Yeah. And depending on the time of year, you're in between different types of socks too. But I do that, I have worn keens, I've worn hiking boots. I don't have a favorite boots. I do like leather boots with a rubber around the bottom and on the sides and over the tip. These boots seem to be the thing of rubber, rubber and yeah. Yeah. I like them. I know they make them in men's great ankle and upper support for the leg. Really nice. What are they called? The guide boot. I'm trying to look them up. Yeah. It's, they make them for men and women, but let me look it up here. It's a yellow bean, women guide boot. Okay. Well, come on. Give me that picture. Is it the main's warden field boot? Yeah. The main, main. Women's main warden field boot. Okay. Yeah. I'm looking at it. That's the boot. And I like it. Okay. And I use lacrosse. The women's lacrosse boots. I also use the muck boots. Some of lacrosse, the part that comes up from where your ankle is and on the front, you like going up your shin. They have a really stiff piece and if you flex a lot, that stiff piece of rubber coming up will actually bite into my shin. Whereas the muck boot doesn't have that. So it's, it's a cross, you know, so I have muck boots. I have lacrosse boots. I have the main warden field boot. Yeah. That looks like a nice boot. It feels nice. And I know they make them for, I'm thinking about getting another pair of and being able to alternate between your, you know, boots is really good. Yep. Yep. Okay. I was going to say, have you, you, do you like the, you like the muck boots? I like them. I mean, I just, I think I put holes in them really quick. Okay. All right. Cause that's, that's really, so I've used lacrosse, alpha burleys. I used to hunt in them. Now I don't really hunt in those kind of boots, but they're my winter, you know, they're my shoveling snow blowing boot and then my winter hiking boot. So when I'm running the dogs in the winter, I will wear those. And I just, you know, I, it's like, I know like I'm, what I'm signing up for when I get my lacrosse, alpha burleys there, the, that rubber, the whatever, however, whatever percentage of rubber it is. It's not like my gum leaf boots, which are a much higher quality rubber, they're going to wear out. So I, I burned up a pair of alpha burleys and I need to get another pair of boots for this winter. And I was considering given the mucks a try, but I haven't bought anything yet. Yeah. Let me, there's that other boot, um, where is it? If anybody has suggestions for it said French or boots, oh, the le chamau, le chamau, yeah. Yeah. I use those when I was over in France and you know, you'd look at them and you think those are going to be the most uncomfortable boot out there, but they weren't. They were very good, um, and I was happy with them. And I've used them here as well, but they're, they don't have the rock there that we can have. Right. And that's the only place, like I have really weak ankles. So you know, I want a boot that really comes up around my ankles. And so there it was okay because it was more flat. There was a little, some hills, but it wasn't, you know, really, you know, super hilly and it wasn't the rocks. Um, so I think it's just go ahead. I was going to say I, I still have, so I've got, I have two pair of gum leaf boots that I, I have an insulated pair and a non insulated pair. Those are my hunting rubber boots. So like if it's wet, this hunting season, I will be, I typically wear crispy boots, which I've started doing the last few years. And I really like those. They're, they're pretty similar to like what you're looking at with here. That mains warden boot. So I wear that boot most of the time, but if it's wet or if it's later season, then I'll switch to my gum leaf. And those are, are very quality boots and they've lasted me a long, long time. I think I've had my first track only since 2017. I don't wear them in, like when I'm doing my shovel, I kind of baby them, I guess is what I'm, what I'm getting at. Like I don't wear them when I'm snow blowing and hiking in the winter. So that's where I'm, where in these other less expensive boots, just for tinkering around in the winter. And they're a little bit, my gum leaves are what I like about them is they're in a similar to the relation. Well, they're, they're a real low profile kind of streamline, like well fitting boot, which I like when I'm hunting, but when I'm doing my winter walks and stuff, the lacrosse boots are the yellow more room in the foot and I throw big thick sock on there. I'm just not as concerned with like being as streamlined and as well outfit as I am when I'm hunting. Sure. Okay. So this one is, we've kind of woven this into a lot of our conversation today, but, and we talked a lot about early season, which is going to be on people's minds. But maybe, there's anything else to say in with respect to how do birds shift from September to October to November, as the, as the season changes, what are those core things you're paying attention to as the woods change in front of our eyes? Well, I'll start in the beginning and quickly go through the seasons. And so right now we've got foliage. So we're in an aspen cut, decent floor, maybe not as much shrub, got to know my edges, know where I'm at, change in elevation, where is it cool, where, and where is the wind, you know, going to be quiet. So finding those places in that, then all of a sudden the aspen loses the leaves. And the shrub component still has leaves and there's still salad on the floor. After multiple frost, and the dispersal is mainly over by typically by the middle part of, of octopards, are looking at the aspen saying, I can't run around, I know everything's going to see me. So shrub components become really important at that point. They help to form corridors and density of drainage areas to and from an area can become really important. Density of patches of pine from one area to the next becomes important. And so I look at it this way is that they need some type of cover to go from one place to the other when the leaves are all gone. And so you have to look at those things or is a very short flight. It's not the flight, you know, going into the next county, so to speak. So this as a season progresses, the shrubs become more important. The pine's become more important. And it's pines where they're lower to the ground so that, you know, you really can't see the bird too easily under there. It's the type of pine tree. Think about it this way. If you had snow, there really wouldn't be any snow under it. Groups of pines. And what I'm thinking is that these birds have to shift with the food sources. So in the beginning, it was some Aspen leaves, a little bit of salad. Then it's salad, then it becomes seasonal, like, you know, the, um. Catkins. Yeah. Well, it goes to berries next. Okay. So it's like salad and berries. And of course, the frost takes out the salad and berries, then they come to the catkins because the cat can start the pre winter food source and they have to move into that area. But the thing also is, is that, you know, these hens are moving in where the males are because the males have habitat that supports them year round, both in food cover protection and it and also escape routes. So it's, you know, they're going into that. So once they get into that later season habitat, their world becomes very small. So it has to be a place that offers cover, you know, cover from going from one place to the next cover for bad weather, cover for wind. And if they have the hazel brush or hazel nuts, whatever you want to call it. It's a matter of, um, they can get into it. I mean, how many food sources can they eat off of and have protection the whole time? So, you know, in each area is going to be a little bit different, you know, first Wisconsin, Michigan and Minnesota. There's a difference below the bridge of Michigan versus above the bridge in your choices of what you have for even a shrub component down there. But when you look at Wisconsin and Minnesota and some parts of Western Michigan, it becomes a little bit, you know, like, you know, Western Michigan has a few places that are like what we have here in Wisconsin and Minnesota has a lot of it, you know, hazel brush. So I don't know if that answers it. Yeah. Yeah. It's it is. I mean, again, kind of going back to last year, like we were so fortunate to for anybody that could kind of continue to hunt and keep after it while the while the conditions persisted into December, November and December. One thing I remember specifically from some of my last hunt of the year, like, so this is like late December and early January, my last hunt was January 5th of 2024 of last season. I got into some big groups of grouse and it just was that like you're talking about, you know, the males kind of established that territory that females come in. They really, really group up on those, those core areas where there's they have everything they need in a small spot because they're, they know in whether whether they've been through it before or instinctively, they know that hard times are coming. So they're trying to, they're looking for all those resources in a small little area. And I found some big groups of birds as I was out there, I think. And it really didn't doesn't amount to like a whole lot of shooting. It's just like a lot of birds flushing around and it's it wasn't, you're not getting the best dog work, but it was, it was cool to see that many birds in a small area. Well, let's, let's wrap this thing up and we've got a few more questions about dogs. And we will, we will call it a show, but if you are running a young dog, two to three years of age, how long will you run that dog in one day and how many days per week might you take the dog out? Assuming we have cool temperatures, good conditions, heat is a non factor. Well, I used to, with my guide dogs, they hunted every, at least, I'd most of my time guiding, I was guiding seven days a week. And I'd pull that off for seven or eight weeks, you know, they, I took a few breaks, but you know, it was hitting 50 cut, 50 counts basically. And for a while, they're only had two dogs. So, I was running them every day, but I was treating them as if they were a sled dog. As far as nutrition went, I was also taking them and I was rubbing their joints down on their legs with liniment and putting wraps on their feet to keep them from getting swollen on the, on the knuckle right above the foot and with liniment on there, if it was cold, I was putting what's called a half jacket on them with hand warmers in it. And that would go, you know, over their front shoulders so that they wouldn't stiffen up. And you know, I would basically, I made sure they cooled down slowly, not fast, because they will stiffen up very quickly, and it's also a good thing to do with older dogs. On feet, if you're running, running a lot, you need to bring your dog into the season, not underweight, maybe just a tiny, tiny bit overweight, just a little bit. And then you have to maintain it. I used electrolytes, I used pre-electrolytes and then post-electrolytes, but I mean, I was running every day, someone was running three hours. And then why it was in the truck, it was, and then the food and everything. So you, if you're going to run that much, it depends on the dog. It depends on, is it, you know, you got to check their paws before and after. You got to know where they're at with that. Take time to feel the dog over. Make sure there's no briars or anything, you know, on the dog, but especially check the armpits in the groin area, so it doesn't form a friction area. Check around the ears, keep your tick, or your application's up to date. If you're in a bad tick area, I personally run oral meds, and then I put the serrestral on. I do not do three. No, no, not two only, yep. And you know, you have to then take the dog and I'll do like muscle movement extensions, your range of range of motion test to check them. I don't let him jump off the tailgate, I don't let him jump up on the tailgate. You know, basically you treat the dog like an athlete. You should anyways, but you're going to ask a lot out of them. You treat the dog like an athlete, and you make sure you don't overheat as well. You take breaks when you can, you know, and the one thing is a lot of people go out in the woods and they're like on a mission, and when you're on that fast of a mission, think about it this way. How do animals hunt as fast as it can go through the woods? It's stalking, it's working, it's quiet, it's stealth. And so the more you lift that dog, run full bore, yeah, it's going to slam point on birds, but it's also going to ignore some scent. It won't give you that heads up when it first encounters some scent. It'll run through that first step right there, that first bit, that's less scent, but then slam it when it's got a certain amount of slant. So I think nowadays as they ask how things are changing in the grouse woods, you need, if you push birds, they're just going to run and run and run until they hit it opening and then they flush. If you stalk the birds, I honestly think you'll get more out of it. You are playing chess in the woods between the cover you have to go through and looking for those openings to the dog, being stealthy to the dog saying, okay, I'm going to relocate and then I'm going to get the scent, which I just gave you a heads up that I'm on something to you looking ahead and figuring the habitat. So it's all of this points out what I'm getting at is it's not overrunning your dog. If your dog's running full bore and the times you take it out, it's going to take longer to recover from it. So one of the things you look at is when that dog comes back or when that dog stops, you talk the settle or whatever, how long does it take for its breathing to become normal? That helps you determine what the conditioning level is of the dog that you have. If the dog starts laying down and flapping over, you're probably like, I'm tired, I'm hot. It's going to need some recovery time. It's going to take longer to recover. And the older that dog is, you got to remember the dogs when it's young, it's in its prime, but that dog's going to get old faster than we ever want it to. And you need to start backing off, protect its joints, protect and condition it going into the season so that you have the longevity, I mean, in the dogs. And this isn't about when, oh, they're eight, nine years old, let's throw as much medication as it to it so that it can hunt, you know, if you have an overweight dog, you better work on the weight issue beforehand. Don't just come into the season and say, oh, I'll burn it off because you'll keep using that excuse when it's seven, eight, nine years old and it's that much harder for them. You've got to keep them fit and you've got to be fit, but you don't have to chase the birds as fast as you need to do the woods because all you're doing is educating them to run out farther. Right. That was beyond the question that was always good, good reminders. And I will say you would know better than I, but the person asking the question mentioned two to three years of age, which that's really a dog like you're like you got into. I mean, that's like a physically mature dog. So then at that point. It should be. Not a house dog that's not doing anything. Right. But I don't have anything against house dogs either. Yeah, that dog is, you know, on your guide string, you're potentially running it every day with all of the things in mind that you, you went through a dog younger than that, one to two years of age, that's not necessarily a mature dog. And that's a different story where you're, you need to be more mindful of duration and frequency of, of run and hunt. Yeah. In those type of dogs that are younger, you're dealing with a mental, mental component and you're dealing with a growth plate issue. Yeah. And many of them is not till they're two, two years old that those growth plates have closed up. I mean, if you're going to take a six month old or a year old pup and start running them an hour to an hour and a half or whatever, they're not ready for that. Those growth plates aren't closed up yet. It is called things in moderation. I know you're up here for a week. I know you want to run the heck out of the dog and all that, but you, everything you do when they're young, especially can affect how they, how long they can hunt for you later on in their life. Take care of them now and take care of them throughout their whole life that you'll be hunting them at 11 and 12. You know, your hunts will be shorter, but they'll still be going. Good stuff. All right. Have you ever worked with dogs that were gun shy or gunshot sensitive? And if yes, how have you done it? So a lot of work, so a lot of freaking work. And usually it happens when someone didn't do their homework. You can never, I have worked with some, but they weren't bad. There's other ones that I've seen that really just need to go to someone that that's their specialty. Yeah. You know, it's one thing to where you know, you can put more birds in front of them. Build up that drive just a little bit more and then slowly ease into it. But when you've gotten to that point, I think you need to go see a professional. There's different levels of being, having an issue, you know, because when you have a gun shy dog, whenever you, you will, you're going to have other problems. It's more usually more than just one issue confidence and yeah, it's going to bleed out into other areas. Yeah. Yeah. I've never dealt with it personally, but I know enough to know that when people say, take the time to do that one right because it's a lot easier to just do it right to begin with than have to try to fix it, you know, you, you want to, that's one to, I don't even want to. I mean, when you, someone says that to me, I just cringe because I know the work that goes into it. It's unbelievable. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Why did you go? Oh, I don't even know that I maybe you've probably mentioned it before, but why did you go away from English pointers and go to European setters? Well, this is just me. Okay. I'll stop back, I'll back up and go forward here quick. I ran race sled dogs, sprint racing sled dogs. And it was very important for uniformity and, you know, basically everyone makes a team. So to speak, or at least one team, whether it's a four, six, eight or ten dog team, they all want to run. The English pointers, they were getting tight in their, um, some of the ones I was working with were getting very tight in their bloodlines that the COI, which is coefficient of inbreeding, meaning they had too much relatives in their pedigree of the dogs that I purchased and then crossed that it just, they wouldn't turn it off. Um, they were good hunting dogs, but they weren't the best of house dogs. The females were having, um, some problems with endometriosis, weird heat cycles. And when you get up to that 19, 20%, even 18%, uh, you start to have some health issues that can crop up and I was seeing them and I said, you know, I'm not going to try to fix it. And one of the things you learn, if you work with databases on, you know, um, generations of dogs, you're able to calculate in very many programs, the COI and you start to see when that, the COI gets too high, you have sometimes some autoimmune issues, you have some health issues and even you get like a Ferrari that is constantly idling on high than sometimes you won't, but you have a higher percentage and a liter for me that was happening that way. I was given a setter, uh, here in the U.S. I loved it, uh, I really liked it. And then when I, I happened to be a female and when I went to look what to breed it to, I was starting to see some of the same information in the, um, pedigree. And that bothered me and I knew from doing sled dogs that having a true out cross that's not related at all and you can look back, you know, seven, eight generations that you don't have, you know, hardly any relations that is, gives me a little COI. I also wanted dogs that creeped a lot, that stalked, that are cautious. And when you look at the European, I liked what I saw, not all of them are like that. So, you know, if it wasn't for my dear friends over there across the pond, um, who knows what I would have ended up with. So I went because I wanted to, I wanted genetics. I wanted low sea wise. I wanted a very natural dog. I wanted a dog that was a sleuth in the woods. Um, I wanted a dog that was bittable. I wanted a dog when it came inside that, you know, long as there aren't any crazy distractions that they're quiet and you want that. And I just, that's what I did. And for about four years, I didn't tell people I'd done it. I just, you know, and so, uh, Kenzie and Brody are 11 going on 12 now. So, and I've, I've brought in 16 dogs so far and represents I think 10 to 12 bloodlines. I can't remember what I have, but yeah, I brought in a lot. The idea was, is that I can cross, but not, uh, be too close. Yeah. I want genetic diversity is a good thing, uh, but everyone has what they like and it took me a while to learn how to train these dogs because they were different training them. They didn't, they weren't like training in the US dogs. I'm, I'm happy I did what I did for me, you know, it's, it's good. Yeah. Got it. All right. Do you think dogs are better today than they were in the past? I think it's, there's lines of dogs that are really good. Right. I, I think that's part of it right there. I feel like they should be right the hard work of all the, that's what, that's what people aim for. Well, aiming for it and then getting it are two different things. Yeah. Um, and a lot of it is is that how much experience are they getting in the woods repetitively on birds? Yeah. Wild birds. Yeah. That's really hard. I mean, but you can practice a layup and do that and it'll help you a lot. That's what I speak. But sometimes if you train for a dog to just always go around and stand it in point. It doesn't know how to relocate and that's a requirement nowadays of these dogs to relocate with an even head to realize the sense going to get taken away from them. And they're going to have to stay calm, cool and collected and then do it again, and do it again. And it's like putting a carrot in front of that dog now each time. And some dogs can't handle it. You know, they'll just run then or they start going faster. Because all they've ever seen is and smelled is that plant bird and you imprint it with a whole bunch of scent multiple times in the beginning and that becomes the norm for what they expect will happen into the woods, but they had to be trained in a field. I think more than anything, the dogs are probably fine. Our lives are what has changed. Our training styles have been adapted to what time we have and where we live. The seasons aren't as long, our lives are busier, and then we only have one week and there's less birds. I mean, I'm not, you know, I'm not complaining about the birds, but I know there's a difference from when I was in my peak of guiding to right now. I mean, they're there and you can put some decent days together, but that's harder for a person that's come one up from out of their down south and they only got a week. So it makes it difficult. You know, there's more people hunting wild birds back many years, many years ago. I think it's all there. It's just the dogs, the chance to have their full potential and does a person get a chance to hunt like everyone did 40 years ago, time wise, the frame. Like many things we discussed today, there are a lot of factors that play into that. It's hard to give it a simple answer, but we did our best. Will you be in the woods with a shotgun tomorrow morning and are you still in training mode? Oh, I have a shotgun. All right. Why not? It's opening day. I mean, if it's nice enough, I'm going to throw a lead. Heck yeah, heck yeah. Well, another trip around the sun and another September conversation with Ann Jandron on the bird shop podcast. We did it and I can't thank you enough. I enjoy these conversations as I know the listeners do and thank you once again. I know you enjoy coming on the show. Well, I enjoy it. I appreciate it, Nick. All right. Tell everybody where they can go to find all of the best stuff that you're putting out there, the podcast, the map, scout and hunt. Where do they go? They're going to go to mobilehuntingmaps.com and that's our scout and hunt site. But then if you're wanting to listen to the podcast, just hover over up and hunting and go to the bottom. So find all the listings of the podcast we've done and there's also there on YouTube. And if you have questions, give us a call. If you need some help with your maps, give us a call. We will pick up the phone. Well, thank you once again and listeners. I will have links for all that stuff in the show notes and that does it for another episode of the bird shop podcast. Thanks again, Ann. Thank you, Nick. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the bird shop podcast presented by Audex Hunt, the final rise and up-and-gun company. Don't forget to rate, review, subscribe and share. And if you really love the show and want to contribute above and beyond what you already do by listening, you can sign up at patreon.com/birdshot. Thanks for listening. We'll catch you on the next episode of the bird shop podcast. On X Hunt is the number one hunting GPS app. Join millions of other hunters who trust on X Hunt to find more game, discover new access and hunt smarter. On X Hunt shows you nationwide public and private land boundaries. They've got topographic and 3D maps. You can track your route, location and elevation profile. You can save maps for offline use and take On X Hunt with you wherever you go. 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Hey what's going on everybody, it's Bob from Lone Ducks Gun Dog Chronicles Podcast. I hope you just enjoyed the episode you just listened to and if you did, I think you'll enjoy hopping on hours. We've got professional retriever trainers and upland bird dog trainers from across the country and world sharing their tips and tricks and great stories to help you and your dog get ready for the season.
