Grant and Danny
Armen Keteyian On College Football
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Be sure to tell them GND sent you so that you can score a discount. kmloyers.com. On the bet QL guest hotline right now, that's smarter to beat the books. Download the bet QL app visit bet ql.com. A six time best selling author who's got a brand new book out. Armin Catayan's book, the price, what it takes to win in college football's era of chaos has been one of the biggest talks and college football industrially over the last few days. And he's kind enough to give us some time now here in DC on Grant and Danny. Armin, thanks so much for a few minutes. We really appreciate it. How long have you been working on this project and why did you decide to write this book? Well, it kind of dates back a couple of years. I had just finished this book called Gambler. Secrets from a life at risk with Billy Walters, the legendary sports gambler, and that book was represented by a literary agent by the name of David Vigliano. And after I had finished the gambler book, David calls me, goes, I have a project I want you to take a look at. And as it turned out, John Tall to you, my co-author had been collaborating with Paul Finebaum potentially on the price. And Paul eventually just decided workload and otherwise that he was going to drop out of the project. And so David asked me, he was representing the same book, The Price. He asked me if I would take a look at the proposal. And frankly, Grant, I didn't know John. I knew of John. I read the proposal and it kind of reminded me, it not even kind of, it reminded me of the system of book that Jeff Benedict and I had done back in 2013, which was a deep dive into the state of Big Time College football at that point in time. And what we were experiencing now, obviously, was NIL and the portal and realignment on the horizon again. It was like, that made the system look like child's plays. So it began really in the summer of 2022. And John had already kind of ramped up some of the SEC reporting. And I was able to bring relationships and contacts I had at other schools, Michigan and the NCAA, eventually Arizona and other places. And it turned out to be a really good collaboration because of John's institutional knowledge of the SEC. We both had had relationships and long-term reporting on Nick Saban and others in the SEC. So, but it was like hopping on a speeding freight train, to be honest, because everything, as you well know, was changing. Sometimes, certainly, weekly, sometimes daily, sometimes hourly, sometimes by the minute. And because of the embeds, the rare access, the behind-the-scenes things that we were getting, we felt really confident that we were going to be able to describe a landscape that, you know, as we say in the subtitle of the book, that was just complete chaos. And so, I think we got fortunate. You know, thank God there was a deadline because otherwise, we'd still be, you know, I'm reading stuff now about, you know, the house settlement and how there's real questions as to whether that's going to be accepted in certain places. And so, I think in the end, you know, a lot of things fell our way. And certainly, Nick's decision to retire was a huge thing. And then, Jed Fish, who's a big character in our book, is now gone from Arizona to Washington. So, there was a lot of, there was a lot of chaos. But in the end, I think we've delivered something that, at least from the early reviews and what we're seeing is, you know, has really been very well accepted. Oh, it's an incredible story and the storytelling from one of the greats to do it over the last couple of decades, Armin Catay. And with us on Grant and Danny, author, TV, film producer, six New York Times bestsellers. And this is a masterpiece in this genre, right, where we're, we're still learning. I mean, you talk about how many changes there were while you were preparing the book. I mean, as we're talking in this conversation right now, there are going to be things changed and tweaked and done in college football and in college sports. But I guess, let's start there. How would you describe the chaos kind of in a nutshell of the last couple of years and where would you even begin to explain to someone who just woke up from their couple of your coma going? What happened to college football here? Well, I would start with the, with the title of the book because the price has multiple meanings. It's, it's not just the financial windfall, that price, the money that is poured into the sport, the billions of dollars now associated with grant of rights and certainly the upcoming 12 team college football playoff. But what John and I discovered that there was a tremendous emotional, physical and psychological toll being taken on the people who make their livelihood and love the game of college football, they're exhausted by what they're dealing with right now because no day is ever the same. There's always some cross-current or headwind or surprise around the corner. So I think that's, that's one thing. And I think the other thing that we have as the heartbeat of the book is that there's just a tremendous amount of greed and self-interest right now. And if you look at the chapter that we did on the destruction of the Pac-12 in a matter 108 year old conference, the conference of champions, the Rose Bowl and all those other great athletes associated with it starting with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Tiger Woods and Bill Walton on down. And you look at what happened to that conference, it was really driven by greed because some presidents who really didn't know what they were doing or talking about, believed that they're individual schools, the Pac-10 as a whole, but the individual schools, the Pac-12 as a whole, the grant of rights fee should have been $50 million a year. Now that's Big Ten and SEC territory and is one high-ranking SPN executive told me, he goes, "If you're talking about volleyball and swimming, well, maybe there is a comparison, but when you're talking about football, there is no comparison." And so, but when USC decided to go to the Big Ten, that was the tumbling block, that was the domino that really started everything there. And sooner or later, UCLA goes, and obviously now with Oregon and Washington in the Big Ten, which really makes no sense other than the fact that Fox was willing to put up in the case of certainly Oregon and Washington, $30 million per school in grant of rights money to get them to agree to make the change. So, I think that in self-interest, everybody right now, because there is no clear picture, is most concerned about their own institution or their own conference. And that's not good for the greater good of the game. I say that understanding that last night we watched Colorado hold on to beat North Dakota State, and there's a lot of great games on the field. The sport has never been, I think, more exciting and more popular. Off the field, it's never been more unsettled and turbulent. And that's that's going to shake out, but it's not going to shake out, I think, for a couple of years. It could be five years down the line before we finally figure out what a solid-looking picture is for the future of college football. Armin Catayan on Grant and Danny here on the fan in DC. Armin, I'm curious. I think everyone lumps kind of all the changes in college football together, like the landscape over the last few years. And I was all for NIL. I thought and still think players should be able to make money off their names, just like I was able to in college if I was doing something, not as a college athlete. Having said that, is that tied to everything that's going on with conference realignment and programs restructuring? We know that coaches are bowing out left and right because they don't want to deal with the recruiting of their own players. I have a good buddy who coaches college baseball. And, you know, his program was able to stay afloat because if they got some good players, everything was fine. But now he gets a good player and they have a great year. He loses them immediately in free agency. Are those things tied together or is it two different conversations when it comes to the unrecognizable conferences and NIL and the toothpaste not being able to go back in a tube? Well, I think it starts with the control, I would say, the influence, I would say, of the media companies. When you start with ESPN and Fox and CBS and NBC, they're really dictating realignment. And so when you have that, when you have no control over your future, as Bobby Robbins, the president of the University of Arizona, is soon to be walking away because he's having a hard time dealing with his faculty senate and some of the stuff out there. And that's a great loss for Arizona. But his point was, you know, when you're at the mercy of the media companies and they're dictating your future, what conferences are going to look like, that's not a good thing. So then you have that as one, you know, pillar of the problem. And then you add in, I think the second thing would be the portal because the portal is so chaotic and it's essentially free agency in college football and college basketball and college sports in general. And then you throw in the NIL issue and how opaque things are there. There's very little transparency right now in that market. And when someone says a half a million dollars here, you don't know if that number is, you know, right, wrong or indifferent at this point in time. So you have, you're getting battered right and left and center by not just a minor force, but these are 10.0, you know, earthquakes that are hitting you time and time again. And then you just add in the uncertainty of where the solutions are coming from. They're not going to come from Congress. I can tell you that, at least not in the near term. And you have a new president who's trying in Charlie Baker in a very pragmatic way to bring and wrangle all these, you know, wild horses in one direction and everybody's out for themselves. And so there really isn't any, there's no center now. There's no base to what's going on. And just to kind of shift it, if you want to look, and it's in your backyard, if you want to look at a chapter or a couple chapters in this book that summarize where the state of a program is and how that program fits into the bigger picture, just look at Marilyn and Mike Loxley. And those chapters are called Macy's, Macy's One and Macy's. And Mike Loxley, and if this is his description, he finds his program in the middle. Macy's is in the middle. He's got a sexist avenue above him and he's got this episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Whether you love true crime or comedy, celebrity interviews or news, you call the shots on what's in your podcast queue. And guess what? Now you can call them on your auto insurance too, with the name of your price tool from Progressive. It works just the way it sounds. You tell Progressive how much you want to pay for car insurance and they'll show you coverage options that fit your budget. Get your quote today at Progressive.com to join the over 28 million drivers who trust Progressive. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates price and coverage match limited by state law. Hey NFL fans, you can start the season with a big return on FanDuel, America's number one sports book. So when you get a hunch in the middle of the game, you can check out the latest stats, view live play-by-play and so much more on the same page where you place your bets. You'll get started with $200 in bonus bets guaranteed when you place your first $5 bet. That's FanDuel.com/sportsfan. Never waste a hunch and make every moment more with FanDuel, an official sports book partner of the NFL. Must be 21 plus and present in Colorado. First online real money weights are only $10 first deposit required. Bonus issue does now withdrawable bonus bets that expire seven days after receipt. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fanDuel.com, gambling problem, call 1-800-522-4700. The seasons may be changing, but the deals at the sharpest rides are unbeatable as ever. Hey, what's going on? It's your girl Tasha McKia and I need you to join the sharpest rides for their fall into savings events where they're offering incredible prices on their massive inventory. That's right, everything is on sale now. Shop from sleek sedans to rugged SUVs and sporty convertibles. The sharpest rides has the perfect ride to match your fall adventures. Plus, with their exclusive financing options, getting behind the wheel of your dream car has never been easier. Log on and shop online at the sharpestrides.com right from the palm of your hands. Or check other massive inventory in person at the sharpest rides, located 2250 South Sea home street in Inglewood. Either way, you will fall into savings. Don't miss out. Head on over to the sharpestrides.com today and explore the deals that make every season better. And tell them that your girl Tasha McKia sent you the sharpest ride, affordable, sexy, sharp. Target below him, a discount retailer. And so the the sexest avenues of the world are the Michigan's and the Ohio States and the Alabama's we can name them off the top of her head. Down below are programs like let's say UNC Charlotte with Biff Pogie who's trying to build the program. But he's pulling players out of Maryland who want to start right away at a little bit of a lower division one school. And he's losing players to the bigger programs who he's developed over two years. And they go into the portal because Maryland can't afford a $20 million NIL budget or even a $10 million NIL budget. And at the same time, as we say in the book, of course, Loxley's getting hit by his own players to Leah Tonga Violola right before a bowl game last year came to him as other players did, but to Leah being the big star of the team really influenced by his father to say, I need $50,000 or I'm not going to play in this bowl game. Now that's a you can define that as extortion if you'd like, which is kind of what it is. And Mike had to find that money. Is that where the Mike Gundy comment came from a couple weeks ago, Marvin, where he said like it's over now. Yeah, you've got players coming in and that's why Nick resigned. I mean, Nick's alluded to it, but clearly he had lost the one thing Nick wanted in his program and more than anything else was control. He wanted to be able to control the process and control the development of his players and control what happens on the field. And after they lost it, Michigan in the Rose Bowl in the semi-finals, Nick goes down to Florida to his beachfront estate down there, comes back to Tuscaloosa. He's got a line outside his door and that line is not from players who are wanting to talk to their coach about, okay, coach, what do I need to do in the offseason to develop? How do I get on the field? How do I get better? No, it was one after another saying, coach, if I don't get more money from NIL, I'm going in the portal. And I've been, I've known Nick and been around Nick's dating back to his days with the Miami Dolphins. I have a very good relationship with Miss Terry, his wife, and we were texting and talking during the season. And I can tell you, there was a great deal of frustration over these new rules. And, you know, they just rubbed Nick the wrong way. And he didn't need the money anymore, but he didn't need the agony at this point in time. So when you look at where we are right now, you have Nick Saban out of the game, and you have Jim Harbaugh out of the game for very, very different reasons as we explained in the book. And Harbaugh's a big, and Michigan's a big part of the book. There's three chapters on that in his Jim's battle with the NCAA and the vendetta. Those are my words that the NCAA Committee on Infractions had against Jim. But when those two singular figures are not in the game for different reasons, but they're both gone. That tells you a lot about what the state of college football is. Armie Catan with us here on Grant and Danny. Armie, long time ago, it was a former college athlete myself. And, you know, I had very little sympathy for a lot of college coaches that you kind of alluded to. The everything was set up for their convenience, I was used to argue. Like if I wanted the transfer, regardless of the reason sick family member or just different fit, I just said out of year, there are all sorts of things that were just sort of set up for them. They could gracious. Scholarships weren't guaranteed. There was all this stuff where they could take advantage of players for their own, you know, the benefit of their programs. Well, the pendulum has swung so far in the opposite direction, where we were just hoping, hey, can I get paid 20 bucks to take a picture next to somebody at a local sporting goods store? It's now gone. As you said, the guys walking in with their hands out. So I guess ultimately, my question is here, to me, the start of this or the blame should fall with the governing body that fought any kind of change. There were no rules or regs kind of set in place. And they basically started a wildfire and have no idea how to contain it. You're absolutely 100% right. And in the book talks about the history of the NCAA's the lay and denial of athletes' rights and really going back to the days of Walter Byers in the 1950s, where he took over the NCAA as the executive director at that time and had a 36-year run where he ran that organization like a third world despond and created out of whole cloth the words "student athlete" and amateurism as for no other reason than to protect the association against workers' compensation claims. So these were not employees of the university. They were just playing for God in the good of our country, basically. And that original lies, it's been called, perpetrated and went on and on and on as commercialization of college sports just exploded. And whether it was March Madness and then it was the SEC on CBS and then it was the Big Ten network and then it was the SEC network and on and on and on. Well, it takes you up to Ed O'Bannon and Sonny Vicaro, and there's a chapter called Oppenheimer, which I really like, and it gives you the history here where you look at the court cases in one court case after another. The NCAA was losing these court cases or they were settling them and then lawyers were making a ton of money and no one else was making anything. And what happened was is that the Obannon case finally cracked the wall and opened the floodgates and then that led to the Austin case, which led to the House case, which led to the Supreme Court ruling, the 9-0 ruling, the unanimous ruling, that really was the beginning of NIL. And so if you want to point a finger in the direction, the leadership of the NCAA from the president's on down is a pretty good place to start. Well, last before you, Herman, is about the players themselves. Again, I argued that NIL was about, hey, earning some extra scratch or I could sign an autograph for $5, $10, $100, more high-profile college athletes should and deserve more. I get that, but we're now to the point where there's no collective bargaining, there's no one really watching out for these players' interests. You can be promised a lot and it should an 18, 19-year-old that's trying to decide whether they're going to go play to the highest bidder. Hayden Rishada, there's a whole chapter on him and what happened in Florida in that lawsuit now. And so do you anticipate a CBA? I mean, I guess my big question here is, who's looking out for these players in this kind of Wild West? That's a really good question. And I don't think you have a kind of a player's association with Ramaji Hoggi and people like that. But I think that all has to be settled out. And right now, Charlie Baker's trying to get a framework on NIL. He's trying to get transparency on these contracts. They're fighting in Congress for some sort of antitrust exemption. Whether that happens, it's not going to happen certainly this year or even early into next year with the presidential race and everything. But you're right, there has to be some formula, some framework in place where the universities or the conferences decide that, okay, this is how we're going to share the money. That $2.8 billion settlement, yes, there's supposedly now $20 million per school in revenue sharing. But how is that really going to work? And how do you control it so it doesn't, it's not ripe for criminality? Because right now, some of these kids are signing these NIL deals without counsel or without advisors. And they're signing away their life rights in perpetuity. Meaning that this agent or this entity now controls your life rights if even if you become an NFL star. And that's a recipe for disaster. So hopefully, cooler heads are going to prevail. Hopefully, self-interest will be put to the side so the greater good becomes the primary focus of these discussions. But if history is any sort of lesson here, you've got to have a lot of hope that something like that's going to happen because I think self-interest here right now is really overriding everything. Armin, fantastic. Still working my way through it, but it has been an incredible read. I think the research is so obvious and there's nothing else like it right now at a critical time in college football and college sports. And as we kick off this season, I think it's a must read for all of our listeners. Thank you for the time. Really, really appreciate it. Thank you, man. I appreciate it. Anything else though real quick that you would say about where people can get it or what you'd want to say that we didn't ask? It's on Amazon, it's in Barnes and Noble, books a million. It's everywhere right now. I mean, and certainly Amazon is a place easily to get it because I know that a lot of my friends have been telling me that they just picked up the book. John and I are really proud. You said, I think we hit something. It's one of the best books I've ever done and that is saying something consider Tiger Woods and the system and our recruits and a few other things. But I'm really proud of it. And I think if you're a college football fan and you're trying to understand this brave new world, this book goes a long way to help you do that. It's eye open. Very cool. Thank you, Armin. We appreciate it. Thank you. Armin Catayan. Awesome. Loved him by the way on real sports with Brian Gumbel back in the day. Next is college football better or worse than it was five years ago. We'll discuss that. We want to hear from you guys on that as well on the MGM National Harbor listener lines eight hundred six three six one oh six seven is how you can join us on Grant and Danny. This episode is brought to you by progressive insurance. Whether you love true crime or comedy, celebrity interviews or news, you call the shots on what's in your podcast queue. And guess what? Now you can call them on your auto insurance too with the name of your price tool from progressive. It works just the way it sounds. You tell progressive how much you want to pay for car insurance and they'll show you coverage options that fit your budget. Get your quote today at progressive.com to join the over 28 million drivers who trust progressive. Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates price and coverage match limited by state law. Hey NFL fans, you can start the season with a big return on Fandell America's number one sports book. So when you get a hunch in the middle of the game, you can check out the latest stats, view live play by play, and so much more on the same page where you place your bets. You'll get started with $200 in bonus bets guaranteed when you place your first $5 bet. That's Fandell dot com slash sports fan. Never waste a hunch and make every moment more with Fandell, an official sports book partner of the NFL must be 21 plus and president Colorado first online real money weights are only $10 first deposit required. Bonus issued is now a throwable bonus bets that expire seven days after receipt restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fandell.com gambling problem call 1-800-522-4700. The seasons may be changing, but the deals the sharpest rides are unbeatable as ever. Hey, what's going on? It's your girl Tasha McKeea and I need you to join the sharpest rides for their fall into savings events where they're offering incredible prices on their massive inventory. That's right, everything is on sale now. Shot from sleek sedans to rugged SUVs and sporty convertibles. 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