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(dramatic music) - That truck was hauling 22 million killer bees. - With a three-part season premiere event. - That's some of bees to kill 44,000 people. (dramatic music) - Is that a, some bee nado? - This one's gonna stay. - Help us comment! - 9-1-1, all new Thursdays, 8-7-10 on ABC, and stream on Hulu. (upbeat music) - Slow Burn Media, Evergreen Podcasts, and Killer Podcasts presents Who Killed, a podcast that provides a voice for the voiceless. - Hey, there are absolutely no clues in the murder of actor Bob Crane, who was known to millions as Colonel Hogan in the television series, Hogan's Heroes. The police in Arizona have no idea who entered his room and beat him to death. Here's more from Kim Sedgwick of Station KT AR. - Crane's body was found in his room in an apartment complex in Scottsdale. He was discovered by an actress friend who had an appointment with him. He was curled up in bed with the covers pulled up, and electrical cord was wrapped around his neck. According to the medical examiner, Crane was killed by at least two heavy blows to the head. - I believe the man was asleep when he was hit over the head and he never moved after he was hit, and after he died or while he died, the ligature was applied around his neck for good measure, but that did not contribute to his death. - The 49-year-old Crane was in Scottsdale appearing in a production of Beginners' Luck at a local dinner theater. He was best known for his role as Colonel Hogan in the TV series, Hogan's Heroes, a hit program which ran six seasons. Police speculate that Crane was murdered with a tire iron. There was no sign of a struggle and no forced entry. Robbery has been ruled out as a motive since valuables remained untouched. Kim Sedgwick for NBC News, Phoenix. - Hello and welcome to this week's episode of Who Killed. I am your host, Bill Huffman, and this is a slow burn media evergreen podcast and killer podcast production. Recently, you know I did an episode on Bob Crane of Hogan Heroes fame. - Well, I have the privilege and I'm so lucky to be joined this week for a follow up with his official biographers. Carol Ford and Linda Groundwater are here. Welcome to the show ladies. - Thank you so much for having us. - Thank you very much for having us. - Thank you very much for reaching out. I really thought it was cool that you reached out through our forms of communication and we've made this work. And you guys are all the way on the other side of the world in Australia. - One of us is. - One of you are. - I'm just in New Jersey so. - Yeah, you do. - You support New England. - Just support New England. - Just support New England. - Just support New England. - And let's fill it out in New Jersey. - And let's be honest. Some people, I'm from Cleveland. People will say Philadelphia, New Jersey. They're their own little country themselves so, you know. But you guys, you know, you have a very interesting story. And you are, again, you've earned the title of official biographers. How did you guys get involved into the life of Bob Crane and wanna attain those titles? - Well, thanks so much again for having us. Look, I started looking into this around 2003. It was just sheer accident. I mean, I was alive when Bob was killed, but I was quite young. And my mother-in-law was watching Hogan's Heroes and I thought, oh my goodness, I haven't seen that in ages. And I remembered while watching it, how immensely entertaining and enjoyable it was. But I remembered that Bob had been killed and that I didn't really know too much about it because when I was young, my parents wouldn't let me, you know, really read the news about it. And so when I got home, I looked it up and we had internet by 2003 course and I said, oh my goodness, look at this. It's Hogan's Heroes and Murder and Sex and Murder and Sex and Hogan's Heroes and Sex and Hogan's Heroes and Murder. And I said, oh my goodness gracious. Okay, this was terrible. And then dug down underneath that. I saw other things. I saw radio when I saw theater and I saw charity and I saw work trying to help the military. And I said, all of these things have kind of gotten lost under sex and murder and Hogan's Heroes. And I thought that's not really fair. And being a former news person myself, I used to be a radio journalist. I thought, well, someone should do something about this. And so from down here in Australia, I said, I need to start reaching out. And so I reached out first to radio stations that Bob worked at. And I came across Dee Young, who is our third co-author who hates doing these kind of interviews. So you'll know, good luck. If you ever get her, that'll be the biggest coup you'll ever have. - You know, people are meant to do what they like to do. - Exactly, exactly. But Dee is all radio. Dee used to work at WICC where Bob's career really took off and she actually did meet him back when he went and visited the station. And she led me to some of Bob's family. And eventually I reached out on the old Yahoo groups and said, hey, is there anyone who knows anything about Bob, who's known Bob, who's met Bob? And Carol was on there already doing her thing. And so we joined forces. And between Carol and Dee and myself, we just exploded into this great tone that now sits in front of people. - And when, you know, I was a member of this Hogan's Ears because, you know, before Facebook and before, you know, social media, we had these groups and it was, you know, it was like a listserv kind of thing. - I'm not that young. I remember. (laughing) - And Linda joined, yeah, 'cause I loved Hogan's Ears. And I think the thing that brings us all together too, in addition to radio, is our love of Hogan's Ears. When I was a kid, I was watching Hogan's Ears. And when I learned as a little 14 year old kid that Bob Crane had been murdered, I was really upset by that, you know, that's something that when you're watching a TV show, your little mind can't really grasp something that big. And, you know, I took it upon myself to research and I would go to the library and I'd go to, you know, pull up the microfilm and the microfiche. And I would just start doing like this, what I call preliminary research, not knowing where it was going to go. But I was really interested in learning about who he was. And, you know, in that little bitty time, I was learning that, you know, his first wife and his second wife and his children, and we'll get into that later. But that was all, you know, for a 14 year old, 15 year old, that was something that was really, you know, pretty big. But fast forward, and, you know, Hogan's Ears is running in syndication on cable and, you know, all of those things. And Linda joins this group and, you know, here we are. And she says, I'm looking for somebody who, you know, anybody who has any connections to Bob Crane, 'cause she didn't know who was part of the group or who wasn't. And I just remember answering back and saying, you know, I'd love to help you, but good luck with that. Because we all know, we all know what the, the, the stigma is, even at that early, early age, back in the early 2000s, you know, the movie had just come out and we'll get into it later. - Yeah, that, I didn't know. I didn't know the impact of that film. - Right. And so... - Until after I started, until after we started, we really didn't understand what the impact of that film was. - And that movie is the movie with Greg Keneer. - Yes, and William Defoe, yes. So, yeah, so Linda and I connected up. She put me in touch with Dee. And thus began my trekking across the country. Up to Connecticut, I've been down to South Carolina out to the West Coast. You know, going all over the country. The, the, the early days of, of researching this project where, you know, I had spaghetti wires hanging all over my, my living room and kitchen and office here at home, because we didn't have Zoom. Yeah, I had a radio shack recorder that-- - There's guys, no Zoom. - Yeah, none of them. - So we did, we did all everything, really old school. No transcription services, we had to do it all. - I do, yeah. - So, you know, labor of love, we ended up talking to well over 200 people. - Wow. - And it was one of those things that it was in the middle of the night. - In the middle of the night, you know? - In the middle of the night for Linda. It would be like, it'd be one in the morning. And, and, you know, Linda, we're doing this at, you know. - That's a labor of love that you're seriously. - We, we just, we, we were all in and we, we never wanted to, you know, we get, we never wanted to like sugarcoat anything. - We wanted to tell the truth. That was always the thing from the beginning. And we didn't know what we were going to learn from people. You know, when you throw in murder and sex and a lot of sex, you don't know what people are going to say about all that sex. Is it going to be just sex? Or is it going to be, you know, Bill Cosby? Is it going to be things where, you know, are going into the illegal criminal side of things? And, and I think I can speak for both D and Linda if that is how it turned out. - I don't think we would have continued because it just becomes, you know, who wants to go that route. - Right. - We've seen enough of that with, you know, with what's happening with Diddy and. - Oh, yeah, yeah. - Yes, Epstein and, you know, all these, you know, - But it was never, it was never our intent to sugarcoat or create a saint out of Bob. We are looking at the whole Bob Crane, the good and the bad. And as it turned out, yes, there was this side of him. But there are, there's a perspective there that we'll get into. But there was also this predominantly good goodness about him that is so often overlooked. And, you know, when I give presentations, I just got back from Cleveland, actually. I was up in Port Clinton. - No kidding. - A couple of weekends ago, - No kidding. - The Liberty Aviation Museum has the. - State the Island House? - No, no, I was up in Port Clinton. But we, the Liberty Aviation Museum up there has the whole Hogan's Heroes collection. The uniforms and all that. - Wow. - So I'm out there. And, you know, when I give these presentations, after it's done, people will say, "Thank you for giving me my show back. "Thank you for telling me who Bob Crane really was "because now I can go watch Hogan's Heroes again "and not feel weird or icky about it." And that's really why we're here. - It's kind of, yeah, and then you brought up Cosby, and that is it kind of, you cannot watch the Cosby show without, I actually interviewed, I just had two other, two former South Wales, New South Wales detectives on, just on Wednesday, and they were talking about the, I brought up the fact that we were talking this weekend, and they remembered the show, it must have been huge in Australia, 'cause I mean, they were talking, they were-- - It's still running. It hasn't stopped running here since I noticed it in 2003. It has not been off the air, so it just goes, it just goes. - And that's so crazy, and I think about my podcasts and stuff, and it's funny when you look at demographics and you look at areas where your shows are popular or less popular, Australia was always a good zone, and it's just interesting how some of the American culture has just taken over and in certain aspects, I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to Americanize anything. Just the fact that it's still a popular show, and the gentleman that I was speaking with, they were reciting lines, and just doing their little shtick that Crane would do, and I mean, it was cool, it was kind of neat to see how it just transcends - It really does, it does transcend time, and it's worldwide, they run it in Germany, under Papa Schultz, and they change it because it's not, they can't do certain things in German, right? - They can't say certain things in German, right? - That's right, and so they change that all out and make it more vanilla, but it's very-- - Something weird happened there, too, I don't know what that was, but anyway, yes, it does transcend across cultures and across, and you know, people talk about oh, you know, should they remake it, who would play the piece, but I think that it needs to stay, it needs to stay in its universe, in its original form, and don't mess with it, it is perfection, it is perfection. - It's like don't remake back to the future, don't remake certain classics that are just going to live on in their perfect state, and let them be-- - And you couldn't make Hogan's Heroes now, I mean, it's just, the world is a different place, the what is acceptable is different, and what was acceptable in the '60s, 20 years after the war, you know, as Bob often said, they weren't trying to paint the Nazis as the bad guys in the German, you know, they were trying to say, look how clever the allies are, not look how stupid the Germans are, and if it just happened to turn out that way, it turned out that way, whereas now, I mean, I'm actually surprised in a way that about it's sticking power, because you watch some of this, and you go, oh God, you couldn't do that now, I mean, the same thing even with some of Bob's radio shows, what was acceptable in the early '60s and late '50s, to say and to use as steroids, like whatever, you could not get away with some of the things that they talk about now, but you can put it in its time, and say this was a product of its time, except that Hogan's hero seems to have expanded past that, yes, it's a product of its time, but it's really universally a satire that, you know, you just broke up on the ground, sorry, you broke up pretty bad. - Yeah, you broke up a little bit there. - Yeah, I think it said it was trying to reconnect, sorry, so, yeah, so-- - Give it a minute, give it about 30 seconds. - Yep, in the meantime, yes, I'll just-- - Yeah, go ahead, Carol. - I'll just talk a little bit about how that, you know, what Linda's saying is, is that the era, you know, you can't apply, you know, 2024, you know, culture to something that was, you know, even 15 years ago, you know, you have to look at the culture for where it is. It's like, sometimes people will look at even like, going back to the 1700s or 1500s and try to apply, you know, the, you know, this, you know, what we have today, the laws of today, or things like that of today, two things from, you know, in the past, and you cannot do it, you can't do it. - No, you can't, I mean, if we looked at everything through, you know, our time machine glasses, I mean, that's, there are things that even just 10, 15, 20 years ago, I mean, friends, stuff on friends that you wouldn't necessarily get away with today, but again, you don't, yeah, you put things in their place, let them be where they were, there, they weren't doing anything that wasn't, it sure seems maybe on kuth today, but whatever, at the time, they were just going along with what the normal things were. - It was, it was, and, you know, to just kind of bring this back around, Bob, Bob was very, you know, when Hogan's Heroes was produced, it was the 1965, it was when it first premiered, so 59 years ago on September 17th, 1965, and the, you know, the big thing with Bob was, now he had a brother who served in the Navy in World War II, and he was very sensitive, he also had uncles, he had family members, he had friends, who served in the war. Bob himself was not old enough to serve in World War II, they were looking to graduate him and his class early to be able to go off to war, but that never happened, thankfully, because the E Day happened in May of 1945, so he went on to continue his school and graduated in 1946, but he did have a brother who was very badly injured, his brother Al, his older brother Al was serving on the USS Bunker Hill in the Pacific Theater of War, which in May of 1945 was struck by two kamikaze planes, and Al, you know, was very, very badly injured, he was burned, badly burned over most of his body, where the plane had hit, it actually took out, he had just left his post, he was a radio man, and it had taken out his replacement, and so he lived with survivor's guilt, but throughout that ordeal, it was a couple of weeks before the family knew that Al had survived, and this had a really profound impact on Bob, because of course it's his brother, and it's not like, again, today, where you find everything out immediately, they waited, they waited and waited, they didn't know if he was alive or dead, and when they did find out, it was like Christmas, that's what his friend Charlie Zito had said to us, that it was like Christmas, you know, he was alive, but very, very badly injured, and so as a result of that and other effects of the war being, you know, just that era growing up in, Bob was very sensitive to our veterans and former POWs, and so when he, when the Hogan's Heroes was filmed, when the pilot was filmed, he insisted, before he signed, before he signed on to the contract, to do it, he insisted that that trailer, that pilot episode be sent out to veterans groups across the country, we were told specifically the Midwest, and you know, just to gauge their feedback, because if anybody had come back and said, "No, this is offensive, don't like it," he'd have been out, he would not have gone forward with it, however, what happened was they came back and they said they loved it, because without humor, they would never have been able to survive the hardships of the war, and so because of that, Bob was sold, and the rest is history, but he was very, always was very sensitive to the feelings of our troops, always sensitive to the feelings of our veterans, former POWs, he was very, very supportive of our veterans, and would often, and he does not get credit for this at all, but he would often go to various military bases and entertain our troops across the country, and so, yeah, very, very supportive of our military service. - Linda, you're back. Basically, unfortunately, you broke up there when you were talking. - That's okay. - But yeah, so, you know, Bob's life, again, through the lens of what my genre is, is true crime, and so I knew Hogan's Heroes as a TV show when I was a kid, but then you start to get the entertainment channel, E, behind the Hollywood stories, and whatever, or even, I think it might have been unsolved mysteries, but the idea that this man had so much more to him than just his death, I mean, nobody should be remembered as just for one dying the way that he died, because there's just so much to more to somebody than the death, and I think what you guys are doing is, like you said, about going to Cleveland and going and speaking in Port Clinton at the museum, is that you give that show back to people, and what you allow those people to do is to enjoy it and remember the innocence behind it, and not, again, like the salaciousness, the, oh, sex, murder, adultery, whatever, it just, nothing that you gave them their show back, and that's what your guys' goal seems to have been, and I think that's amazing. - And to, for lack of a better term, to re-humanize Bob Crane, I became-- - Very good way of putting it. - I became particularly, like Carol was in the States where as I had already moved away. I am a New England girl, I promise. - What time did you grow up in New England? - I can pack my car with the best of Massachusetts folks. I grew up near Cape Cod and worked in radio in Massachusetts and in New Hampshire, and then married in Aussie, who didn't like snow, and came back. And-- - Wow, okay. - But, you know, but when I went back into the States, now I became particularly close with Bob's first cousin, Jim Sennich, who was very, very supportive, and always had lots of things to say. God rest his soul, he passed a few years ago now, and he provided us with a lot of insight into the Bob that he knew, the person that he knew, the family member that he knew, and how he treated his family, and how he lived his life, and it was very hurtful to the family. How people treated his cousin. There was a joke, and as much as I loved Cheers, I have a real issue with Frasier, the show Frasier, because at one point they made a joke, because, of course, Frasier's surname in the show is Crane, and he and his wife were having a, or somebody on the show was having a child, and they looked for a first name for a child with a surname, Crane, and they got to Bob, and then said, "Bob, oh no, we can't do that." And it was really hurtful to Bob's family, to have someone make a joke about him just by using his name. And I thought, that's low. That's like a really low bar to hit. And it was unfortunate, because there was a lot of misinformation out there, and to be fair to us, and to Bob, there's a lot of misinformation out there that we are not allowed to correct, because we are seen to be biased by actually speaking to these people, and providing them with, and providing, say, Wikipedia, has a ton of misinformation in it. We are not allowed to correct it, because our source is our own interviews. We are not allowed to go there and say, "This is wrong, we know this is wrong." We're not allowed to do that. So not only that, don't they? - Well even that, even that piece of it, is that Wikipedia is not vetted. It is-- - No. - I can go on Wikipedia, Bill, and change something on your Wikipedia page, without even you knowing, true or false. But somebody else can see it, and if it's true, may not like it, and change it back to the more sensational piece. And so we run into that too, where we do know Wikipedia editors, who have helped us in the past, but because there are people out there who don't want that information, that truth, that physical scientific evidence that we have, and it is true, and it is physically proven. They don't want it up there, because it doesn't suit a certain narrative, right away it comes right back down. So it's a twofold thing, because we wrote the book, we are biased, and we're looked at upon as, we are promoting our book. It doesn't matter that we are experts on this topic, it could be marigolds, for all anybody knows, we still couldn't do a Wikipedia post about marigolds, if we wrote a book on marigolds. But it's that side of it, but that it's also somebody's watching, somebody's keeping a tab on it, to make sure that whatever does get changed, even if somebody that we know, who isn't affiliated with us, or our cause, or anything like that, or a book, or anything that we do for Bob, the she can go in, or they can go in and change something, and try and correct it with the actual documentation of newspaper articles, and everything that they require, and sources, and somebody else can just come in and overwrite it and take it down, because it doesn't suit what they think is the truth. When I first tried to change something on Wikipedia, it was even before we had written and published the book, we learned that Bob Crane had graduated from high school, and in Robert Grace Smith's book, who is the, he also wrote the zodiac killer, right, exactly. And Robert Grace Smith, for, you know, his, some of his research is off, and so, but I will say, for Grace Smith, is that he did a very good thorough criminology investigation on the crime, and everything that has come after that, that has focused on the crime, is just standing on his shoulders, and there are several, there are at least two books out there that do that, and they claim that they are the ones that know everything, and I'm not gonna mention who they are, but there are other books out there that have come long after Grace Smith. Grace Smith was the one that did the primary research. They have stood on his shoulders for the criminology part, and slapped their own theories on it, and call it their own. Grace Smith calls that-- - And that is his expertise, you know, that is where he excels, and he had firsthand access to a lot of the things in, you know, in the Scott scale that was heartened to be able to say, this is my work, whereas others came in after, you know, but to his credit, I think, sorry, Carol, I think you were going to say, is that he said to us, it is a long overdue for there to be a story about the whole bar of Crane that goes outside of his murder. He realized how much there was to Bob Crane, and said, someone needs to be doing this, I'm glad you're doing it. - Absolutely, and he had messed up his job, you know, his job was to look at the crime. Our job was to look at the person before the crime. - Yeah, he had wanted to actually do the full biography, but his publisher told him, no, just do the crime. And so the bits of biographical information that are in his book are just that, they're bits, they're tiny, they're not really delving into the full Bob Crane that we did do. And when we found out that Bob had graduated from high school, in his book, it says he dropped out, and that became the line. Bob Crane dropped out of high school, and he would feel insecure about it for the rest of his life. Said it on Wikipedia, said it everywhere. And I tried to get that changed on Wikipedia. I had his diploma, I had his high school records from Stanford High School in Stanford, Connecticut. I had his yearbook, I had full-on documentation that this man graduated from high school. Not that it's a big deal if you graduate or not, but what's the big deal is that it's not true to say that he didn't graduate. And it became a real sticking point with me, right, Linda? - Oh yeah, so she knows what I'm gonna go where I'm gonna go next. - Let's not even talk about, I mean, there were so many things that just got perpetuated. Sadly, they got perpetuated by Robert Grace Smith's book because the rest of his book was so spot on. I mean, his work with the crime was so spot on. But what he did for the biography was instead of kind of really researching aspects of Bob's life because they weren't really relevant necessarily to his-- - What he was doing. - Yeah, but what it did was it meant that he grabbed things out of newspapers that were then proven to be wrong. So with Bob not graduating from high school, it's because he made some joke about not graduating from high school. - It started with him. - It started with Bob making a joke. I was like, "Who would have sent this?" - I was like, "What would you say these things?" - "The comedian." - Yeah, there's a great musical. - A funny guy. - A radical made up by somebody who shall remain a Jeff Erdell, let's not leave him name. - That's the-- - An old C.S. fella. - That's the old letter. - I don't know where he is now made up the worst stuff in the world that said that Bob had done celebrity cooks in Canada. And that show was supposed to air in the United States and they were going to lead with Bob's episode. It was a lovely, you know how in the '70s they do a lot of celebrity cooking shows and they look toky and here's what I prepared earlier. - I think it'd be nice to go back to that, to be honest with you, that might be nice. It might be a nice change of pace from the everyday grind and I'm just saying-- - I couldn't agree more. - Maybe there's a market. Maybe there's a market there. - There could be. There could be. But you know, Bob did celebrity cooks. - Cookin' at Lyndon Co. - He did it well and they had a great time and everybody had a ball and then they were going to start airing it in the United States and Bob was killed. And so they said, oh no, we're just gonna take this off. And what ended up happening was this fella Erdell said that it was creepy, that he watched it and Bob was dark and he talked about death and he was crying and he made sex jokes and how inappropriate and, but nobody'd seen the episode in the United States. It aired in Canada four or five times but nobody in the United States saw it. Now what happened was Grace Smith grabbed that article because he didn't know. He said, oh look, this is what's reported that he did in blah, blah, blah. And if you've read the book or seen that part of the book, Carol and I spend a fair amount of time. We spoke with four people who were on the floor that day and said that they couldn't have been more wrong. Erdell was completely wrong. They were very angry that this was said and used. There was that film that was made actually used part of this as a reality and the whole thing was made up and that is all perpetuated. - I was gonna ask about that. You can't fix it. And you know, that's one of the interesting things about Wikipedia too because, you know, they claim and, you know, like you said, you can go in and change whatever you want but somebody else can go and can change. And then it's not really what a market, market itself as because you would think the official biographers would be able to go in and change pertinent information regarding someone's backstory. It's not like you're putting in opinion pieces or anything like that. It's not, it's completely factual. First hand reporting. - Yeah. - I don't see why that is an issue and that's frustrating. - It is frustrating and, you know, Linda and I, you know, we're kind of, you know, front and center on, you know, we don't like to say that we're trolling but we do troll some of the Hogan's Heroes groups because, I mean, there come, these posts come and there was one just recently on this one Hogan's Heroes group where somebody said, well, I forget the original post, what exactly would it say but it was like, something about Hogan, Bob Crane was murdered and what do you all think of that or something like that? And of course. - It was challenging. - I got it right here. I got it right here. - What a horrible way for Bob Crane to have died. - Yeah. - That's all. - Yeah. - And the comments that followed were, if you look at that post and look at the comments that we are like, you know, Linda's up when I'm asleep. I'm, you know, and vice versa. So we kind of have like 24 hour surveillance on this kind of stuff. And we don't get too far down into feeding the trolls but we do correct when we feel we need to. And, you know, when people say, you know, well, - Have you seen the movie? - Yeah. - That obviously comes out. - That's always it. - That's always it. - Come on. - Have you seen the movie? - His wife had something to do with it. His wife had something to do with it. And have you seen the movie and he wasn't a nice guy? - And, you know, the movies are always so accurate. It's just like, it's just like, those television shows about police and interrogations and, you know, solving the crime. - No, no, no, no. - I mean, don't they solve cases in an hour? I mean, I just-- - An hour, a full hour. - I mean, not even, well, I just talked to the two detectives from Australia, like I told you, and they said it's actually 45 minutes and a long order. So, you know, just-- - And a minute for the opening and ending credits, man, so 40, 40. - Cold open ending credits. - Yes, yes. Cold open. - Yep, absolutely. - Yep, absolutely. - You know, you talk about, you know, solving the case and, you know, how, you know, this kind of thing is, you know, it's really spun out of control. What we also deal with is that the crime is, you know, it was botched from the start. The crime scene was botched from the start. Evidence walked out of that room that day. Scottsdale Police Department tried, I don't know if they tried their best and just didn't know, or if they were just sloppy. But, you know, we had interviews. We had an interview not too long ago with a podcaster who is a retired police chief and has connections with the FBI. He does a podcast called APB Cold Case. And he, we were telling him about how the crime scene was so mishandled, and he agreed that, you know, he thought he was going to have a stroke. Yeah, I mean, they use Bob's case as what not to do. - Right. - You know, Bob was, and this is something that a lot of people don't really know too much about, or don't understand. There might be some flipping comments about, oh, he was getting help, or he was a sexual addict. So, Bob Creme was looking to get out of this lifestyle. It started back in the '50s in Connecticut. It was not something, you know, nobody wakes up and says, hey, guess what, I want to be an addict. It's something that happens over time. And nobody wants to fall into some sort of a, and I'll call it loosely a lifestyle where they are becoming dependent on something, whether it is a chemical or food or some sort of behavior. So, in Connecticut, he's dabbling in it and it's becoming more and more. When he moves, and he and his wife and first son, they move out to Hollywood in 1956. And it's kind of a fresh start because Bob and his first wife Anne, he, she was his childhood sweetheart, they were married in 1949. They separated several times before they moved out West. And so, moving out West in 1956, when he gets his, you know, the job offer at K&X CBS Radio in Hollywood, which Bob Crane's radio career is a whole hour in and of itself. - I was gonna say, just, you know, I know radio was the media at that day and age. Just give a two minute elevator pitch on what his career was like and how it basically impacted his trajectory. - Well, his radio career, he's the people who worked with him in radio have referred to him as a genius, a radio genius. He starts off in 1950 in Hornell, New York. He gets a ride, you know, he drives up from Stanford, Connecticut and to the, you know, to Hornell. His car breaks down, he gets a ride on the back of a hay wagon. He has, it's a hay sticking up all over him and he goes into WLEA and he says, "Okay, I'm here for the job." And they said, "Great, here's a broom." And he went, "No, no, I want a microphone." And they were like, "No, no, you're the janitor." And they're like, "Okay, well, at least you can say "you're working in radio now." So he does that, he mops the floors for a week and then the guy that they had on the air in the morning, he quit, he was gone and they needed somebody to come on the air and Bob had been cracking jokes the whole time that he was, you know, there, mopping the floors. And so they said, "Well, let's put him on the air, "he's funny, he can fill the spot." And that's when he starts to, he gets his break. It's not a big break, but it is a break. He gets behind the microphone. And Bob had been putting on radio shows back in his, you know, when he was a kid, because he was a drummer, he loved his drums and so he wanted to be in the big bands. But as the big band era was coming to a close, he wanted to stay close to music and radio was a way for him to do that. So wherever Bob went, the drums went with him. And so he would play his drums on the air. He started experimenting with sound effects and with, you know, voice impersonations. And he started to do what he called mess with the commercials. And, you know, that becomes really a big deal because as he comes back to Connecticut, he goes to Bristol, Connecticut first, WVIS, then he goes to W-L-I-Z. And then finally, he's at W-I-C-C, which is a whole, you know, journey there and in and of itself. But at W-I-C-C, he really starts to dig in and get his radio chops going. And this is where he is now, you know, just really becoming very, very popular, has a market share of, I think, 17 and 1/2 percent. - It's 65 percent. - 65 percent, yes. It's a 5 or 7 more. - When you think about the Connecticut, this is my happiness because I used to work in radio as well. But when you look at, you know, how many radio stations there are, there still were a lot of radio stations back in those days, you know, and they touched the New York market and they touched, you know, the Boston market and they, you know, Stanford, Connecticut, could hit, you know, or in Bridgeport, Connecticut, could hit a lot of other markets and have a lot of stations. And Bob was getting 65 percent of the listeners. - Wow. - 65 percent. And Boston went, he's killing us. You've got to get rid of him. E-E-I, and Boston said-- - The CBS affiliate, yeah. - Yeah, it was a CBS affiliate and said, you've got to get rid of him, you've got to help, we've got to get him out. He's killing our ratings. This crane guy, he's doing this stuff, we can't get him out of our systems, help us, help us. So they tried to hire him into Boston and he said, no, I don't want to go to Boston, what are I out of Boston for? And I'm doing really well where I am, I'm very happy where I am. And his dream was to actually go to New York. But CBS-- - He's like the first Howard Stern. - Yeah, but he was kinder, but you've got it spot on. - Yes. - And he, because as Carol said, it was really important to Bob, he was really sensitive to people, he never really wanted to hurt anyone, and he could be wild. But his intention was never to be hurtful. And I think that's one of the reasons that people really enjoyed listening to him, was he was crazy, but he was crazy in a good way. But CBS is like, we got to get rid of this guy, please come to Boston. He said, no, no, I don't want to. And then they made him an offering, couldn't refuse. What else do we do with him in CBS? Well, Ralph's story went off to do what Bob called the crooked $64,000 question. And they needed someone to take his place. So they said, Bob, please come out. He said, oh, I don't know, California, they said, please come out. So they sent Bob out to California, earning a ridiculous sum of money in those days, and put him on a no acting clause for five years, because they were losing a lot of their disjockeys to television, to either to be hosts of shows like Ralph's story or to do acting, you know, other acting and MCing work and whatever. So they said, look, please come out. And he said, I don't know, I have control over everything I want to do here in Connecticut. And of course, in those days, the unions were huge and disjockeys couldn't play their own records. You had to have an engineer to do that. Well, Bob's show was set up so that he needed to be able to play his own stuff, because a lot of what Bob did was something that came to him instantly. And Bob could grab a record off the shelf and queue it up in 20 seconds. And he hadn't thought of this until about a minute earlier. Well, an engineer can't do that for you. So he got special dispensation from the unions so that he still had an engineer who would do stuff for him, but he was also allowed to do his own thing. And so with all of that, he said, yeah, okay, I'll go. And EEI was thrilled, ICC, not so happy, but then out loud went out into California and started his career out there. And to add on to that, just really quickly too, Bob's career in radio, it spanned 15 years because he was working from 1950 through 1965. During the time he was working at K and X, he was there for five years when they finally said, well, we better lift the no acting clause or we're gonna lose them. And so they went on a year to year to year handshake agreement more or less. - I was gonna say, did that hold him back? That had have been frustrating. - It was very frustrating for him. He did one little pilot in 1959 that they just kind of said, okay, well, look the other way. It was called Picture Window. It didn't go anywhere. It was with Max Schulman. - It was awful. (laughs) - It wasn't yet. (all laughing) - So terrible. - It was in 2009. (all laughing) But what then happened was, was that by 1961-- - No, oh gosh, oh gosh, oh gosh, oh gosh, oh gosh. - Sorry, that's okay. - I'm fine, I'll just get my arm on the ceiling if that's okay. (all laughing) - Yeah, in 1961 or so, that no acting clause is lifted. - Okay. - So we start to see him on the Dick Van Dyke Show, which then led to the Donna Reed Show, which then led to Hogan's Heroes. Donna Reed Show, he left on his own. It was not because he was angry and stormed out because he wanted more money. It was not because he got fired. You know, it was not for any of the scenario-- - Is that a narrative that-- - It's a narrative. - It's a narrative. - Okay. - It absolutely is an narrative. - Yeah. - And, but he left because he was bored. He was tired of playing the next-door neighbor, father, husband, you know, type character, white picket fans. - Oh, no, you wouldn't have something. - No, it wouldn't be something that was much different. Much different. - He was on very-- - As soon as he left. - Please don't eat the daisies. - Mm-hmm. - Turn it down. - Turn it down. - My mother did a car. - My mother did a car. - My mother did a car. - A thing with-- - Great ideas. - Well, this one's even better. It was a thing where there was a picture of General Custer hanging on the wall that would tour. - Oh, yeah. - And they wanted him to do that. He was like, are you kidding me? And then Cogan's here has come as a long. So while he's working-- - To be fair. - Fair to say, to be fair, to CVS, I think it was a good idea for them to put that. I think it was good for Bob, that they put that no acting clause in there, because what didn't have experience in what he was doing. So to be able to get to the point of getting the Dick Van Dyke show and Donna Reed, he had to be doing things that weren't, I'm just gonna be dragged to Hollywood. He didn't wanna be an MC. He didn't wanna do the Tonight Show, although it wasn't offer. He wanted to act, and so he could do community theater. He could take acting lessons with Stella Adler. He could do all these things to teach, to learn. For Bob, it was always about learning and learning. And so for them to enforce that no acting clause in his contract was actually good, because he could take the time, because Bob's mind was always running a million miles an hour. And if somebody had offered him some acting earlier, he might have jumped. - I think so. - Because I can do this. I can learn this, because Bob was always onto that next best thing for himself, what he wanted for himself. And he would say to his cousin and audio letters that we have heard, I really wanna get into the acting thing. I really wanna get into the acting thing. But Gig Young and Jack Lemon kept getting his roles, and Tony Randall kept getting his roles. Those were the roles that he really wanted, and these people kept getting his roles. But he didn't have the experience that he needed, and the learning that he needed, and the education and the time in the business to understand the way to act, not just to be the guy who shows up and throws this persona out. He needed to learn to act. And so for them to put that clause in his contract, actually served him well as frustrating as it may have been for him. So by the time he got to the Dick Van Dyke show, that was it. That was a brilliant-- - We as a well-polished. - Right, and the reason he got to the Dick Van Dyke show was because during those first five years at K and X, you get to a point where he is now, there was a premium to advertise on Bob's show. That's how over-the-top he was with his brand of humor. He was doing things in radio that really had rarely, or if ever, had been done before. He never started a component-- - They didn't even want to watch. - Yes, they did, and they called it a spectator sport. Leo McGowary said it worked with Bob at K and X, and he said it was like watching a spectator sport, watching him behind the mic. But he was also then doing, and Linda mentioned the Tonight Show and MC, and there's a reason for that. He was doing later on from about 1962 on, he was doing the interview, the celebrity interview component of his show. So he would do his traditional show from six to nine every weekday morning, and then also on Saturdays. And then the last hour of the show was, yeah, the last hour of the show was a celebrity interview, and sometimes it would be two people, two celebrities on, and they would, you know, this is how Bob started to network in the full-on entertainment industry. He was able to connect with these people. They wanted to be on his show. Donna Reed had been on his show, Dick Van Dyke had been on his show, Maury Amsterdam, you know, they were, you know, Mary Tyler Moore, they had all been on his show to the point that when he wanted to start to break into acting, he had already made these connections. And when he, the story goes is that he begged and begged Karl Reiner to be on the Dick Van Dyke show. Don't know if that's true or not, but that's the story. But he does go on the Dick Van Dyke show, and it's a very popular episode who wants to play Cleopatra, or somebody has to play Cleopatra, it's in the top 10. It's rated in the top 10 of the Dick Van Dyke show. Donna Reed is watching that, and she calls up and she says, "I want you to come on for a guest role," and he does, and then that leads to the full role. And so while he's at K and X, he's going to his work at the radio station, getting there from six, you know, he's there on the air, 6 a.m. to 10 o'clock. Then he runs across the street and does what he needs to do for Donna Reed. He does his makeup while he's in his chair, in his booth at K and X. Runs across the street, does whatever he needs to do, whether it's rehearsal or filming or what reading, whatever, goes back over to K and X when that is all done, and then he, you know, does what he needs to do to prepare for his next show. Now he lives about an hour away, give or take, depending on traffic, and he's getting home 9, 10 o'clock at night. He's quickly eating a meal, the kids are to bed, and, you know, he goes to bed, he's up at 4 a.m., 4, 30 a.m., the next morning to do it all over again. So that's when he's working at Donna Reed. When he leaves Donna Reed, now he gets Hogan's heroes. And so Hogan's heroes, the audition was in 1964, December of 1964. The pilot was filmed in January of 1965, and it was signed by CBS to be greenlit for the September, you know, the fall 1965 season in the spring of 1965, and he has to make a decision. He films about six episodes of Hogan's Heroes while working at K and X, and I like to study those episodes because he looks really tired. He looks happy, but he looks pretty tired because now he's not just a supporting character, he is the star, and so he's carrying, as Robert Clary told Linda in a letter, he's carrying like 85% of the dialogue. He's the star, and so now something's got to give, and so there were newspaper articles that say, "Crain gambles on Hogan's Heroes," you know, because at that point, what do you want to do? He's already, he's already making, yes. - Well, yeah, TV, I mean, TV was still-- - But he was also making a double income between her, between Donna Reed and K and K and X. - Sure, sure. - So he was making at that point $150,000, which if we do the math in 1965, that's a lot of money. - Doing pretty good. - Mm-hmm. - So then he was earning less on Hogan's Heroes than he was on K and X, and he said-- - But there's something to be about being at the star. - Mm-hmm. - He also invested in the movie series. - He wanted to do, he always thought he could do, this is what he really wanted to be fair to his family, his wife was supportive of that, and said, "You follow your dream, this is what you want." You know, and it turned out well, and he got two Emmy nominations, he didn't win, but he got two Emmy nominations, it's hard. When you look at those days, you're up against, you know, Don Adams and his own, you know-- - And Defend Dike! - And Defend Dike, I mean, you know, and that's a great question of one, but you look so safe, and you know, these shows are classic, who's going, you know, sorry about that, Chief, really? How do you pick-- - Come on, you're right! - I don't know if you have one year, you know, so-- - It's like Nick at night, I'll wrap in one. - He followed, you know, he followed his dreams, and in the end, you know, it didn't end well for him, because he's personal, just to come kind of full circle back to your own show. (laughs) You know, it didn't end well for him, but he was trying his very best to continue to follow his dreams and to try and make things better, and he did have another show lined up in the works when he was killed. - I was gonna ask-- - And it was a little-- - About that, like where his career was-- - The life experience, yeah, he was a little less of what he wanted to do, but it was coming back into television, and it was having that chance to reinvent himself, so to speak. He knew that he was failing in many aspects of his life. He had continued to act, and one of the things that I've always said, which is fairly evident in the book, I think, is that Bob always wanted to control his own life, and that's good, because we should have control of our own lives, but he couldn't always see what was best for him, and he did have an addictive personality, and so it was hard for him. You know, he knew that his first marriage had failed because of his proclivities, his addiction, which had started way back in the '50s. His marriage ended in 1969, 1970. Divorce was finalized in 1970. He'd been married for 20 years, and he already had, you know, more than a decade of this kind of issue with his life. He knew that it was a problem. His second wife knew that it was a problem, but accepted it, and didn't enjoy it, but accepted it for what it was. She knew that about him when she married him, and he was trying so hard. In the end, he was seeking help. He didn't get a chance to get that far, because somebody didn't want him to get that far. Whoever that was, or for whatever reason. You know, Bob was killed before he had the chance to really get the help that he actually saw on his own. Nobody came to him and said, "Hey, Bob, you need help." Bob said, "My life is a mess, I'm losing work, "I'm losing my family, I need help." He was reconciling with his wife at the time that he died, his second wife, at the time that he died. There had been divorce papers filed. They devastated him. He was reconciling. There is a video of them less than two weeks before he was killed, loving and unmoving home, and I'm bringing these things home. He was coming back to his family. He realized what his shortfalls were. He realized what his issues were, and he wanted to do something about it. But for whatever reason, or for whomever reason, he didn't get that chance, and he didn't get that far. But again, these are things that are not particularly well-known, because again, we are not allowed to correct the errors that are out there. We've seen the video. Yes, we have seen the video. We've seen the video. We have talked to the people. We have seen the paperwork. We know what was happening. But, Bob, we talked about it. Bob went to for help, who Bob first went to for help. He told us about his discussions with Bob. And again, he just didn't have the chance to change it. - You know, and Bob did talk about his reconciliation attempts with Patty to other family members, which after his murder, they were forthcoming about in the press. And, you know, it's one of those things where at the end of the day, would we know, do we know if they actually would have been successful in reconciliation, no, we don't? Do we know that he wanted to reconcile and that they were trying to reconcile? Yes, we do know that. And we do have physical proof of it. And what to me is, and to Linda and Dee is sad, is that you have this man, who was only 49 years old when he died. And in those 49 years, he packed in so much life, so much goodness, so much outreach. You know, if somebody wanted something from him, if they needed help, if they never had to ask twice, he was there for his family, he was there for his friends, his friends adored him. And, you know, his school friends from Stanford, Connecticut, the last class reunion that he went to was the 1976 class reunion, his their 30 year reunion. And the smiles, you know, he's in all these pictures, and to them, he's just Bobby. He's just Bobby, you know. I don't think that your classmates, he was their drummer boy. You know, when we would talk with all of the people, then his colleagues, you know, Bob was kind to those he worked with, and he was kind to those he knew. He wanted to do good and to be kind. Is he perfect? Was he perfect? No, 'cause nobody is, I'm not. And, you know, we all have our moments where we trip and fall, sometimes literally, like I did. The other night, and it's by my ankle. But we do all, you know, have those, you know, we are not perfect as human beings, we are not perfect. And Bob certainly was not. And unfortunately, he is judged so harshly, you know, you know, you know, going back to people that we try to correct or, you know, try and just talk to on social media who are posting comments. You know, somebody said, Linda, I don't see your name on, you know, this book anywhere, me and Grace's book. And I commented back on that, and I said, obviously, you don't know who Linda Groundwater is, because if you took a minute and just Google Bob Crane's name, as you know, Bill, we come up. We're pretty, you know, we aren't far down on the food chain. We're not number one or number two. It's okay, but we're there. We're in the mix, and we're pretty solid in the mix. And people are opposed to learning more of the perspective that surrounded Bob Crane's addiction. You know, we talked with, 'cause Linda and I are not, you know, we're not experts in this field of addiction. We are not psychologists. And, you know, we can't put Bob Crane on, you know, the psychologist's couch and, you know, try to analyze and psychoanalyze. But we can try and get perspective from people who are experts. And so we talked with four experts in sexual addiction, plus an expert in men's sexual health, to try and understand. And they had different, you know, they had their different perspectives as to where it, you know, where he fell in their, you know, scope of knowledge. But it did provide some kind of an understanding of where he was mentally. Because what you have, and this is where autofocus just goes completely off the rails, they only wanted to focus on bad Bob. They just wanted bad boy Bob because he was the most interesting. And he wasn't interesting enough. So they had to make things up. And they had to, you know, you know, it wasn't meant to be true or definitive. And good Bob wasn't nearly as good, you know, interesting as bad Bob. And Bob Crane himself, in fact, isn't even interesting at all. So let's just create a character and name him Bob Crane. But there's so much, you know, people are complex. I'm complex, you're complex. We're all complex creatures. And to just slap as we started this interview off by saying Bob Crane is only known as a murder victim, as a sexual addict, and tabloid headline, and as Hogan's heroes, and put him into, stuff him into that tiny little box without any other perspective or understanding is a disservice, not just to him, but to all who knew him and loved him and to any of us because that's not fair. We all deserve to have that understanding. And since Bob Crane is not here to tell it himself, we humbly do it for him. Bob did want to write his own book, but he never got a chance to do that. And I look at that and I say, he would have probably, you know, had a lot to say to help other people who might be struggling in some form of addiction. - I think part of the, if I can add to that too, is that is, and I've said this in other podcasts and I think even in our own, is that part of the problem is that people still look at sex like they're 12 years old. There is still this great discomfort about discussing sex. Now, the way people talk about his addiction is, "Hey, I wish my wife had that kind of addiction, ha ha ha." You know, it's just an excuse to cheat on your wife. Well, that, you might do that with a couple of women. Heck, you might even do that with 10 women. Bob slept with literally, literally hundreds of women. That is not just an excuse to cheat on your wife. That's a problem. And you wouldn't talk about alcoholics that way. But alcoholics are addicts. You know, you wouldn't talk about drug users that way, but drug users are addicts. But sex addicts, they still go, "He sex, he he he." And they lose that whole, so they think it's funny. They don't understand that sex can be devastating the same way that alcohol and drugs can be devastating because you can have, you know, if you can have a casual drink and be happy with it, I don't, I hate the taste of alcohol, so I don't have this issue. But I presume you could have a glass of wine and go, "Gee, that's a nice glass of wine." And not need to drink three bottles that night. But not everyone can do that. And you don't make fun of alcoholics for doing that. People can have sex and enjoy it and have it once a day or once a week or once a month or whatever it is and not feel like they need to do it and think it all the time. But sex addicts can't do that. And there's so little understood even now because you had the whole Pete Rose thing. You had David DeCoveny who went off for the weekend and was cured. You have Tiger Woods who wasn't an addict. He was just a jerk, you know? So that there's a lack of understanding about actual addiction when it comes to sex. - I mean, when you go into the Perkins waitress, yeah. I mean, it's, you know, let's just be honest. But I mean, you're right. You're absolutely 100% right. I mean, I talk about mental health a lot, you know, because I've dealt with it my whole life. It's certain stigmas get applied to certain things. You know, certain things are taboo. Oh my, it's sex. Oh my, oh, it's pornography. Oh gosh, you know, everybody cover your eyes, clutch your pearls. Yeah, look at look at, yeah, look around. Uh huh, like that, like give me a break. You know, you know, and you know, you bring up pornography. I want to say this because, you know, this is super important. We mentioned, you know, some, you know, Bill Cosby earlier and, you know, the things that, you know, Bob Crane, you know, was he doing anything criminal? You know, and the answer to that is no. Every, everybody that Bob slept with, they were adult consensual women. - Yeah, he wasn't Harvey Weinstein. - Right, who when asked if they wanted to participate in his amateur pornography, they agreed to it. If they didn't want to do it, he, you know, with Bob, you know, what we learned. - That would be the story. - That's right. What we learned from, oh my gosh, you know, so many people, you know, he didn't, yes. Was he a predator out looking for a good time? Yes, you could, you can call him that because he is looking for that one night stand. But if he were to go up to, you know, this woman here and say, hey, you know, I'm Colonel Hogan, do you wanna get it? And she was like, oh, yeah, no, I don't swing that way. Okay, fine, how about you? And a perfect example of that is Victoria Berry Wells who had the unfortunate stigma of being told, you know, having everybody think that she was sleeping with him all this time when in fact she turned him down. She told us that she turned him down and he became more of a father figure to her and he would run to the pharmacy and get her, you know, her prescription for, you know, antibiotics, if she had a, you know, flu or something like that. You know, he never, once she said no, that door was shut. It didn't, it wasn't about that for him. It was about pleasure for both parties. And if somebody is being forced to do something they don't wanna do, then that's not pleasurable and that is not what he was looking for. If you were into that and you wanted to go have a wild night, he was all about it. But if you said no, it was off the table. And that's really important to get that across because people assume he was forcing women that the cameras were being hidden, which I'm sorry. I don't care how small you think the cameras could have been made in 1978. They were not that small and the crime scene is loaded with his equipment setup. And so, you know, nobody was being forced or coerced in any negative way to participate in any of these activities with Bob. It was all consensual and approved. - Yeah, and I think that's kind of the most important thing to kind of convey here is that one, addiction is a real thing. Two, he wasn't doing anything that we now look at as part of the Me Too movement or, you know, Harvey Weinstein, Bill Cosby, Louis C.K., you know, you name 'em, they were doing weird other things, not consensual. And here we have somebody who's doing consensual activities. And yet, because of the era that had occurred in and the fact that we still haven't fully embraced certain aspects of our human bodies, he gets maligned to this sexual deviant. And at the end of the day, what you guys are-- - Can we just add that he's the one being maligned, but you'll notice nobody says anything about all the women. So, Bob gets maligned for having sex with women, but the women who know that he's married, know he has this reputation, maybe married themselves, maybe very high profile themselves, nobody ever says anything about them. - Tuche. - And considering that they all walked in consensually and you can see their consent on tape. - Yeah. - And they're fully aware that the camera is there because they're playing for the camera. Nobody says anything about them, it's all about him. It doesn't make him better. It just means that what is going on-- - Because he's all about him. - Because you have to remember too, that Bob Crane as Colonel Hogan is this, is this, you know, very, you know, clean cut all American perfect kind of person. He is not, you know, when he is found murdered in his apartment in Scottsdale and all of this comes out, it shatters this public image of Colonel Hogan being completely, you know, Mr. Americana perfect. Nothing is going to take him, you know, apart. He's wonderful. And that's where you start to see the splintering of, you know, it's almost like shock where you can't wrap your head around the fact that Colonel Hogan, who I love to watch, is now this sexual deviant. And that's why when we talk to people and they are so happy to hear what we have to say. And again, it's not because we're trying to sugarcoat anything, you know, what we have to say is, you know, very, you know, it's balanced. It's just that, you know, there's so much of the negative out there that we're trying to explain that there is perspective here. And they say, thank you for giving me my show back because when I learned that he was the sexual deviant, I couldn't watch it anymore because it, you know, yuck. But, you know, that, you know, in and of itself, there is this whole, you know, perception of Bob Crane being Colonel Hogan. And, you know, they couldn't separate, he was typecast. They couldn't separate Hogan from Bob. And when Bob was murdered, it was like Colonel Hogan got murdered. And people had a hard time accepting that, I think. - Yeah, I think that that's kind of one of those situations where, you know, the crime, unfortunately outweighs the man. And that's the era. I mean, I don't know if that would be the case nowadays because of the fact that we have access to all these different things. And his library's past catalog, the things that he did in radio in the '50s. And, you know, it's just one of those shames that we aren't in a situation where there's a resolution. You know, you guys have done a great job doing what you do in protecting his name and restoring his name and his legacy. And I think that's really what the end goal is of what you guys have set out to accomplish. And I think you've accomplished that. Especially-- - Thank you. Thank you. - Yes. Yes, that is our goal. I think that we have done, I know we've done a lot of good work, but we're not done yet. And, you know, and that's why we like coming on podcasts and talking with folks about Bob. From all aspects, you know, let's talk about his murder. Let's talk about the sex. Let's talk about his radio career. Our goal is not to line our pockets with profits from the book. My publisher has to eat. So, of course, my publisher, you know, gets paid. But our author profits are donated to charities or they go back into, and we don't get tons of money from it, but they do go back into, you know, keeping our work going. Bill, as you know, running a podcast is expensive. You know, you have to pay for, you have to pay for Riverside. You know, you have to pay for your mic and you have to, you know, do all those things. So, you know, in order to be able to do the things that are outreach and continued work, we do put money back into it from our book, our author profits, but we also donate our author profits as well to various charities, including the Liberty Aviation Museum. So, yeah, we will continue to do this as long as we can. - That's incredible, that's great. And Linda, do you have any final last words on the subject? - Oh, no, look, I think Carol's really got it spot on. I mean, our goal is really just for, you know, we're not asking anyone to think of Bob as a perfect human being. We're just asking for people to see him as a human being, a whole human being, not just a fellow with an addiction, but look at what he was able to do in spite of his addiction, or along with his addiction, or, you know, look at the fact that people fight every day. I happen to have just picked up the Matthew Perry autobiography or memoir or whatever you call it. And it's particularly striking now that he's passed. And what he says in the first chapter that I happened to have read this morning is, you know, it's always there, it's always there, it's always there. And yet I had to fight and fight and fight. And this is what Bob did. And did he give into it sometimes? Sure he did, because it's hard to fight all the time. And we're not making him out to be a hero, but I think what it's important to do is to just realize that he's a human being, like any other human being, and because he happened to play a particularly larger-than-life hero on television, doesn't mean that he wasn't just an ordinary guy fighting a difficult fight. And that's all we ask people to do. Use your head, you know, think about things critically with what you're reading, and understand that he had loved ones and friends just like we all do. Yeah, and at the end of the day, you know, again, nobody's perfect and nobody should be remembered for how they died in a tragic situation where they weren't at fault. And it's not like he went and committed some crime and died in the process. This is somebody that was killed tragically, and the case remains unsolved. And so I applaud you guys on what you have done. I think it's really a great counterbalance to what I had put out previously. And this gives people a lot of information and opportunity to see Bob as more than just a tabloid headline like you had said, or, you know, even just Colonel Hogan, or, you know, any of those things. And so thank you guys so much for coming on. And I mean, we could talk about this for hours. And I'm sure, yes. And hey, maybe we'll have you on again. And I'd love to talk to you again, seriously. So thank you guys so much. We love it. Thank you so very much. Yeah, keep doing the good work that you guys have been doing. And definitely check out the book, you know, Bob Hogan. And where could they find your book? Sure. So the book is Bob Crane, The Definitive Biography. We have a website where everything that we have done, not just the book, but the podcasts that we do, and all the interviews that we do, it is vote for the number four, bobcrain.org. So vote for bobcrain.org. That came up when we were doing, trying to get them in the Hall of Fame, the Radio Hall of Fame. And we're still trying that. So vote for bobcrain.org is where you can find all of our work. We have air checks of his radio show on our YouTube channel and the podcasts and the bulk and all of that we do is there, so. That's great. That's great. Well, thank you very much for making the time on this Saturday or Sunday for some people over there. Sunday. Yeah, some people in Australia, Saturday night for Carol. Saturday evening for Bill. It's going to be a wild, crazy time. So you guys, seriously, good stuff. Really appreciate you coming on. I know, you know, you guys clearly have put in tons of hours and it shows. So thank you again. Thank you, Bill. Have a great one. Thank you. You too. Bye-bye. Bye. [MUSIC PLAYING] Thank you again so much to Carol and Linda for joining me this week to discuss the bobcrain biography and history of his life. And it does give you a lot more insight into the person that he was, opposed to the victim that he became. So in these cases, it is important to know that there is more to somebody than just their victimhood. And again, we see this happen time and again in lots of different cases. But I appreciate Carol and Linda coming on and enlightening us on the type of person that Bob was and that this was who we really was and not the way that he died. And that's not the way that he should be remembered. So again, thanks to Carol and Linda. And thank you guys for tuning in to this week's episode. As you know, I drop new episodes every Friday. I know that this summer was a little inconsistent. It's been quite a roller coaster with ups and downs with friends and health and all that crazy stuff that just so happens to happen in life. And I will be bringing you a new episode with Sarah Ferris of Sarah Ferris Media. And we'll be discussing another true crime case. And you should expect to see that next Friday. So appreciate you guys. And as always, until next week, stay healthy and be safe. [MUSIC PLAYING] You probably think heat pump systems are boring. Train heat pumps are fully electric and highly efficient. Engineer to maximize your comfort and minimize your energy usage. Train HVAC could save you over $500 per year on your energy bills. And thanks to rebates and incentives, going electric can cost the same as a traditional air conditioning installation into train.com/residential. It's hard to stop a train. Hello, this is Dr. Grande, the host of True Crime Psychology and Personality. On my podcast, I explore and explain the pathology behind some of the most horrendous crimes and those who commit them. We discuss topics like narcissism, psychopathy, sociopathy, and antisocial personality disorder from a scientifically informed perspective. What is a narcissist? How do you spot a sociopath? What signs can you look for to protect yourself from these dangerous personalities? It's not just about the stories, but also the science and psychology behind them. So if you're interested in true crime or mental health, I'd encourage you to give my show a listen wherever you get podcasts.
