Hi, I'm Janelle, and you're listening to The Momentic Clicked. Join me as I dive into the minds of fellow multi-linguals to uncover the myth of the click. Is it real? Do others experience it too? Let's find out. Today I'm here with Karl, an English coach who runs courses that specialise in hoping neurodiverse professionals speak and write English confidently. You can find out more about his work at Platform 10 English. That's @platform10English on Instagram. So, welcome, Karl. Oh, my God, it's Nazzy and Shroat, thank you for that for me. An absolute pleasure, an absolute pleasure. You are the first male voice to appear on this podcast. How does that make you feel? I was conscious of that, actually. I think, you know, I'm pining some way, so I can bring much masculinity and I saw Shroat to this, but, er, yeah, that would be my best. I'm really curious to find out how people feel when they're learning another language or when they've reached a certain level where they can, you know, confidently say, "I speak this language." And in your case, you have gone through that process with Spanish and also French, but I don't think to the same level, or to the same level. So, actually, French was the root of the spark of my language called interests. That university is what I studied as well. I spent my year abroad there. It's actually really that was the beginning of the journey. But, yeah, Spanish has been a part of my life more recently. My wife, Spanish, she's been living here only for the last year, but coming to this region of Spain for the last 15 years or so. And, yeah, really, that's been kind of a big part of my day to day. My kids are now kind of learning Spanish as a girl, upcoming bilingual, which is really interesting for me, of course, and seeing how they effortlessly breeze through all of this, as well as I had to work out a lot to get to this stage. So, yeah, my French was definitely there, and it always will be, I hope, a dispatch of something I can't avoid, which is a great thing. Being immersed in the language, of course, is the best way to really push forward. And, yeah, not have the choice, essentially, as is the way we are supposed to learn languages and how my children are learning. So, yeah, that's where I'm at right now, but French is definitely there at the beginning, sure. So, with all of that in mind, do you think it's possible to be the same person in two or more languages? Do you feel like yourself when you speak French, when you speak Spanish? - In my case, I do feel a version of myself. I really kind of became kind of a level of fluency was my early adulthood when I was living there. That was really the time I started feeling like I could express myself properly. And then, yeah, you're a version of yourself. And recently, as you've mentioned, neurodiversity and having been diagnosed and ADHD in the last year or so, discovering a lot more about why potentially why I've learned languages well. And there's a part of this people-pleasing factor, I suppose, will not want to disappoint and try to integrate yourself, which is said to be a part of it. And everything that's contributed to me is trying to integrate myself as much as possible when I was in France. And in turn, yes, I suppose I've been able to express myself and be myself a little bit more in French. And now I'm reflecting on that. Is that really the case? Or am I just imitating other people? It is myself in some ways. But it's also a combination of lots of other people that I've met on the way. So I don't know if that is that me now. And is that just being, growing up and being an adult, a young adult, you are discovering yourself and you take snippets from other people. But who am I? You know, is this really me? Or am I constantly evolving as a person? So being aware of my personality is actually something I've always found difficult. I don't know why that is, but I do know that in certain situations I can kind of express myself better than others. But yeah, in French and Spanish, and also right now it's kind of in second nature and in one way, because in a certain situation I'm really confident in talking about myself and others I'm stumped it. So I suddenly have to not focus on what I am. I'm focusing more on the way I'm saying something or the words I'm saying, then I am on anything else. So I don't think that's a version of myself that is true to who I really am. The answer is quite multi-layered there, but it's definitely something I've thought about. And what is me? Am I allowed to be in versions of me? - It's really, really interesting. You did touch on lots of different aspects of what kind of forms personality I think. And I'm no expert, I can only talk about it from my own lived experiences as well. As you were speaking, I had a flashback to a moment when I, it took me back to my sort of three best friends in primary school or after returning, so I grew up in Singapore for five years in Japan before that when I was even younger. But I came back and I met this great group of girls in the last couple of years of primary school and a shout out to them if they're listening. They know who they are. And I remember thinking that I was analyzing sort of all of their personalities, like the quirky artistic, the straight and narrow, the sort of in between, and how each of those girls reflected a part of me, reflected a part of who I am as a person, and that's why we were friends because I said, yes, I have that quirky side, I have that straight and narrow side, I have the in between, and what an amazing sort of gift to see yourself reflected back by those people. And so with that little anecdote, taking that to language, I mean, and taking that to any sort of, you know, we are, I think we are aspects of all of the people that we meet along the way and the people that we are, who I am today is completely, you know, constructed by the languages that I speak. So I think it's really true that we do, you know, construct ourselves throughout life. And so it is, of course, a great question to say to sit back and say, well, who am I? - No, I completely agree that it's just, I think we are a bit, you know, our brain's very plastic and I've learned a lot about that recently and then adapting to different situations and taking bits and bobs, we say, from our own experiences and that becomes a part of us. And yeah, are there several versions of myself? Perhaps there are, is that become less me? No, I think that's a part of me. So yeah, that's, yeah, that's a big part of that for sure. - Yeah, yeah. And so can you pinpoint a moment when you felt the two, three versions of yourself emerging into one, like this moment of a click? - Going back to my former experience in France when I was living there, I was in an environment where I was surrounded in French people, just working in a bar, it wasn't kind of like, it was my least formal, but most effective education in this Erasmus year, I think it was, it's what I got the most out of, I was just being surrounded in the Western language on a pretty much day-to-day basis. And there were, you start off by stealing language and just reproducing it and you kind of back gets you by and then you get to a point where you can start creating your own new manipulate language in your own way. I'd already studied like French for quite a while formally, I've never been confident enough to express myself in a certain way. And there was a moment there, maybe a big spike, the clip maybe you could call it where I could actually, yeah, I felt like I was just a little more of an ease, I was a lot of time I was run down, you know, you've been late shifts, you've not met coffee, express so until late or other things, late and late, late hours, early hours in the morning. And you're, yeah, and being able to kind of get by, that sort of situation can make me feel okay. Yeah, I can do this and yeah, I think I'm there now, but it wasn't necessarily a moment, but it was definitely in that period. I felt like, okay, this is, it can kind of be me, or a version of me, like we've mentioned. And I feel like part of the gang, you know, that's the big part, isn't it? Just feel like I'm not the guy they have to kind of slow down before I can just explain this to Carl in a different way, you're just one of us and just went with that flow. So that felt really good, I was just one of, you know, you say in Spanish, like one more, like one more, and not like another person amongst that group. Yeah, so yeah, I felt that that's maybe the period among my French. Yeah, and then going to Spanish, I suppose it's maybe, what, ah, so we were living in Brazil with Spanish people. And I felt actually at home, there was a point I became, okay, this, you know, we kind of living in the country, we have to adapt to different values, quite mentally draining, that was Portuguese at that time. Yeah. And I came home and actually Spanish was almost like a comfort zone again. You know, you're gonna go, oh, you'd finally speak to your mates in your mother tongue, and sometimes you pick up the phone and speak to someone, but actually Spanish kind of became that language for me a little while. So I could kind of put my guard down a little bit. And maybe that's a click in itself as well. Amazing. But yeah, maybe that was my, that was my moment. Just, yeah, just think about that right now, whether that was probably the moment I felt that I could, I could just relax, but my guard down, that's a click for yourself. Yeah. I think it's, it's really interesting the ways that people use to describe this sort of idea and putting your guard down as being one of those. I'm starting to see, over the episodes, a little bit of a repetition of this idea that there is actually a little bit of our own, of our own decision making involved in that. So... Yeah, definitely. I think, yeah, when you're clicking, maybe in a way is realizing that it's a cage just to communicate and you're going to make mistakes. I'm still in all of my languages. English included, I'll make mistakes. And it's just about being a little bit more chilled about it and just saying, you know what? You guys get me, it's maybe not exactly the way I want to say it. But I'm communicating the understand where I'm getting, right? Then that's sometimes that's the place you get to and just say, no, I don't need, I don't need to be perfect. And then obviously adding to your language, it's you, maybe in your Italian journey, you might realize that kind of has a knock on effects on that. So you actually, which you need to get by, I don't need to, you know, someone learning language for the first time might be over obsessed with little details. I have some students of my own, I'm just getting them over that journey saying, you know what, your purpose of you learning language is to be able to speak and communicate. Communication isn't perfection. That's definitely about, you know, sometimes being okay with it that you're gonna mess up, right? Exactly. And you can correct yourself. Like we do in our mother's house. We sometimes need to get that. I don't know. You sort of touched on that a little bit earlier, becoming a part of like this sort of club. And I wanted to ask you how you feel when you speak another language. And... Like you said, like I mentioned earlier, I do feel like I was, remember when I, when I tried to start learning Spanish, 'cause I used to do an example in French before, I was learning kind of doing some night classes and didn't really get much progress out of it, but I knew I was gonna be traveling in South America in a couple of months' time till I need to find some ways to progress. And I wasn't in the club yet, by the way, but I saw the club and I was, and this is the, you know, the actual situation was I got stuck outside a Pelle jam concert, it was in Hyde Park in London, which was great place to be. I had some friends who were on the inside. But I wasn't ready to go inside. I had a few beers with me. I'm allowed to say on this podcast, I had some beers with me. And I wasn't allowed to bring them inside to the concert arena, the area where it was cornered off. I didn't realize my friends were inside. I saw lots of people around. I just sit here with my beers and drink a few here. And then I saw a group of kind of Spanish people, the club in kind of a circle sitting down, like they looked friendly, bunch. I need to kind of practice my Spanish a little bit. And I tell you what, this is probably the most, probably one of those pivotal moments in my life 'cause it actually led to me meeting my wife. But I went over to the night and I said to them, you know, "Hi guys, you look like a friendly bunch. "Do you want some beers? "I'm not gonna be able to drink all of these "for my friends and I, "but I'm not to bring in." And I said, "Yeah." And they kind of, "Yeah, come on, join us." I sat down and really opened. It's kind of let me join them, but I didn't speak much Spanish. But I kind of felt the confidence to use a couple of expressions. And then I suppose my journey from there on was kind of like the part of this club 'cause I wasn't understanding everything, but I was kind of the guy on the side just trying to be, you know? "Can I be your friend, guys?" You know, but friends in terms of like, "Can I tap into this world of yours?" And the more you discovered about it, you know, the humor, the language, the music and everything that it opens you up to. If I just had my own language, I wouldn't know what I was missing out. I mean, there might be a world out there that's got loads of cool things happening. I have no idea. It's like, "Yeah, they're probably just "in the same thing as us in a different language, right?" It's not that at all. It's tapping into a holy world. So more than a club, and that you wouldn't be able to access otherwise. So, yeah, being part of that and just listening, sometimes I'm listening to like, I said, "My wife, she doesn't speak French." And I've got this album. It's like, "Made for kids, it's hilarious." The music is like, "It's worth learning French "just to understand yourself." 'Cause there's no way I can explain to you like the humor and the language. I can translate everything, but I can't explain to you how funny all the cultural references come into it. It's worth learning French, just to listen to this. So I recommend anyone who's called, the artist called Oredilaf, he's got a little bit in his shop. I think it's called "Made for kids." I try to, my kids now love it. 'Cause I force upon them and he speaks a bit of French to you, I expect. - You will find this funny. - Yeah, yeah, you will, exactly. You will appreciate this 'cause "Earth Boy" isn't quite there yet. But it is a part like, I listen to maybe like a watcher stand up and I'm in Spanish, I think. I can't explain this to anybody. This is the only people, the only people that understand it, not just the language and the cultural layers that come with it can really appreciate it. So like, it's really special. So, yeah, I can't remember what the question started, but how do you feel, was it, how do you feel? - Yeah. - Yeah, I feel like I'm a part of a cool club or a different universe that's, if I had not learned the language, I wouldn't even know existed. That's the big part of it, maybe. - Yeah, yeah. So it's very deep. All of this is like, yeah, we can go quite deep. We're not gonna turn to creativity, another deep topic. And I wanted to ask you how you would define creativity. What does it mean for you to be creative? - I suppose being creative is, it's kind of like the different ways we might get to the same place. So the depth, the outcome might be different. But I think it's the different ways we might approach reaching an outcome. I mean, there might be artistically, might be the languages. I think creativity in languages might go back to what I referred to before, in the sense that you'll get to the destination. It's about, there's lots of roots to get there. And sometimes, yeah, that creative element is using synonyms, words, find different ways, maybe not even knowing unremembering Portuguese. I couldn't use the past tense act to be very creative. I, as to how I would communicate without using past tense in what I was doing. So I suppose that's being more, kind of going back back to the language area, but I definitely think it's that kind of, yeah, your choice of roots to take your journey in going to get to that destination. And those outcomes might be different. But yeah, I think, yeah, everyone's got that little, something, no one brain is the same. No one person is the same. So I think everybody's got their own way of kind of perceiving things. And then also they're in terms of the way they produce as well. - Yeah. - That's what came to mind. - Yeah, the different ways in which we reach a destination. I think it's quite clear your answer, whether on a different day, you would give a different answer. I mean, it's highly likely. - In 10 minutes, you ask me the same thing. I'll find a different way and maybe come out with a different answer, but yeah, that's the creativity in itself, right? - Yeah. Okay, you touched on this because you said, I'm sort of drifting back into the topic of language. And the question was gonna be like, does speaking to all my languages make you more creative? - We tend to be more creative, I think, because we've had to adapt these situations. We've been forced through those phases where we've had to kind of shape our journey in different ways and hasn't always been easy. So it can force you to kind of choose different little pockets from your brain. So I think we're more able to be flexible in our thinking as a result of going through language learning processes, for sure. - Yeah. So now I'm curious to ask you about which of your languages you think is more creative? - Oh, without any bias? I mean, I don't think we can be, we can't be unbiased, can we? (laughs) - I suppose, otherwise, you just ask chat GBT, right? If there was no, you wanted to ask three people for a reason. Okay. In an ideal world, the hybrid of two languages would be my best creative place as a language in itself. Yeah, my mother tongue pips it, for sure. - If you were a project creator, somebody who's starting a business who is already running that business in a first language that is not English, what do you think would motivate that person to transform the business into English? - I don't think people need much convincing of the value of English. It means to communicate in business and commercial, those things. So that in itself should be kind of intrinsic almost in terms of your motivation to build that as a part of your model. But I would really encourage people. And I would say this comes from where I come from in terms of my language teaching. So I really think it's important for you to want to do something, I know that sounds obvious, but in terms of delivering something in English and or if it's speaking casually or network from clients, I think you've really got to want it and you've got to feel it yourself. I don't think it's any good thing. You can be told it's got to be from within. - Yeah. Well, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for coming and joining us. And adding your piece of your piece of this journey to the sort of puzzle because it's sort of expanding and expanding and I'm really, really loving what I'm finding. So I really appreciate your contribution. - Thanks a lot for you, for your hard work and to learn. - Yeah, your questions are really intriguing and really thought provoking. So yeah, thanks for, it's made me think about a lot of things myself. So yeah, thanks to you. - Awesome. Well, in this bottle of thanks, we can stay up our worlds and yeah, we will see the final version in a couple of weeks time. - Fantastic, what's it? - I'm Janelle and you've been listening to the moment it clicked. It's been a pleasure having you with us. If this episode inspired you, please subscribe, rate it and leave a review. You can catch the latest episodes, bonus content and apply to be guest on the show at www.english-creative.com/podcast. There are so many door opening opportunities when you are able to talk about your project in English. The question is, are you ready? Head over to www.english-creative.com. For your free, I'm ready roadmap. You're first step to transforming your project into English. I can't wait to connect with you there. Until next time, keep exploring, stay curious and let your creativity shine in every language. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)
