Are you QS, managing QS, senior QS, QS extraordinaire, even a commercial director or manager? If you are, you need to join us on the 3rd of October at 12.30. Because we're going through the digital maturity model for the construction industry. We're going to be joined by Sean Harvey from C.J.O. Shay. We're going to be talking all things construction QSE, but we're also going to be looking at the digital maturity model for the industry where they are on their journey and where we see the industry in its current state. If you want to level up your business and you want to perform higher as a QS or a commercial team, join us on the 3rd of October via the link below. You are now tuning in to the Own the Build podcast. Join Ceiling's very own Paul Hemming, where each week he interviews experts from the world of construction and asks all the important questions around intelligent construction management. Hello and welcome to episode 186 of the Own the Build podcast with me, Paul Hemming. I've missed you, Chris. Chris is back in the studio, Chris Barber, CBO at Ceiling, Conti-Severe, Extraordinaire. Really happy to have you back in the studio, mate. How the devil are we? I'd like to say the feeling is mutual, but I've been on with you since 7 a.m. this morning, so I've not missed you that much. Yeah, well, I'm trying to be nice, but equally, I didn't want to start meeting with you at 7 a.m. but here we are, mate. In a slight change in content-wise, probably the last six months or so, you and I have done a lot of talking on the show about what we've dubbed the future of contracting, future for contracting for main and subs. In the next round of episodes, what we're going to try and talk about and tease out of one another is what we consider to be world-class quantity surveying. So with that in mind, let's talk about today a world-class approach for quantity surveyors to procuring a subcontract package. Now, you know me, all I love talking about is curtain walling, gliding. Not love. That's all I've got in the locker. What potentially could we talk about? Give me a few packages and I'll pick one. I'm not sure why you're talking to me about world-class procurement now. Yeah, fair enough. I mean, there's lots you can choose from Paul and you've worked on the making track side. You can go from ground works through to the roof, through to the M&E, you take a pick. Well, you see, I want to do a tough one. I want to see if you are actually as world-class as you suggest. So, I guess we're starting a new series of content, so why don't we start from the beginning. Let's do ground works, right? And for everybody listening, if you're on Episode 186, you probably know by now that I am subcontract specialist and limited to curtain walling, gliding, et cetera. So, I may be a little touch out of my depth here as an interviewer, so please do write in and tell me if I've let Chris get away with murder at any point in doing this ground works package. So, I'm quite surprised actually you didn't pick a procurement of a fine red wine mate, which would be much more like you. Anyway, so let's talk about ground works, right, because just in his name is quite wide range, isn't it, ground works? So, when we talk about doing ground works, let's kind of picture we're on a particular project. Tell us what you see this project as being and what is in this ground works package. Firstly, Paul, I'm not very happy you've picked one of the hardest ones. It's a Friday afternoon. You've put it forward. I didn't. I just gave you a selection. You could have picked something else. Is that or M&E? I actually think this one is probably a bit easier, so you got lucky. Yeah, I mean, the ground works can be as kind of simpler as complicated depending on the type of build, right? So, some of the buildings I was involved in, we were doing like double story basements in existing buildings, which is very complex. You have stuff like piling, underpinning, and the nature of the build is very complex and quite slow actually. Should we do, or to make this a bit easier, do you want to pick a project that you've done or you don't have to name it? We can say central London, double story basement or whatever, pick that and then we can talk about how we would go about procuring it. Yeah, let's just pick a ground works that could encompass a few packages and we can take it from that because it can have a different layers, like I said, with things like piling would be encompassed and potentially temporary work. So, instantly grimace a little bit when it comes to the ground works because let's set the scene right. The company you're working for, you're a QS, company you're working for is just one project. They're all going down a pub, celebrating, let's have a few bit of life. It's great, they've promised the client they're going to start in four weeks time, let's say they're going to mobilize really quickly because it's a sweetener people put into the deals. Now, with knowing that, that you've got a bit of a gun to your head to start, you've just lot of factors to consider here. So, firstly, you'd be wanting your estimating team to have done a very diligent job at the start to make sure that ground works package can be as clean as possible at starting. So, and what I mean by that is as few kind of provisional sums unknowns as possible. Now, when you dig in the ground, you're not going to know everything that's below there, but you could have something like the temporary works where you kind of see at the start might be have a provisional sum against it, and it's not as well defined as it could be. And you would want to know that, how do you want that defined as much as possible before you start? Because when you were trying to procure this groundwork package, you know, you're going to be highly reliant on the expertise of who tended it at tender stage, you know, have they... The specialists. Yeah, the specialists subcontract us. So, how has that been evolved over time because naturally during the estimating process to agreeing a contract, make a tractor to the client, you've gone and gone through a process where you're trying to dot the odds and cross the tees. So you really, really need to... There's a lot of pressure really on the estimating team that they have thought about it diligently and comprehensively, and also between them and the people who are negotiating a contract have kind of geed up the subcontractor because you have got a limited time to kind of re-tender it. So, you secure a package, you secure this contract. In theory, day one, you get construction issue drawings. So, yeah, those construction issue drawings need to go to the subcontractors who tended, but you're under such tight timescales. Those people who might have tended three, four months ago might not be sat there waiting for your construction issue drawings to come through to reprice the project. But let me take you back to just that point alone, because this is for many... Lots of people that I've interviewed on this show, what you've just described is a sticking point generally, or it's a bit like, "Should I have a bill? Should I not have a bill?" Some people say, "I don't need a bill." Some people say, "I want to give it to a sub." Some people say, "I must have a bill." Retendering to subbies, right? So, particularly with the groundwork package and these highly technical complex packages, estimating stage, pre-con, they've gone through and they have got... If they've done that diligence that you're asking them to do, three prices from, let's say three specialists who the company knows, "Well, you may have even worked with them before, which would help." What do you... What's your preference? I think I know the answer, but do you go back just to those three and just try and close the tender with them? Do you completely re-tender with those three as a QS as opposed to an estimator and tighten things up a little bit? Or do you just do... I know, some of this groundwork on the previous project, I really like them new out to four or five. What do you think is morally the right thing to do? It's quite a bit to unpack there. In my opinion, if it's an early package, you should have a bit of a hybrid approach with the estimating team who's tended, who's had those initial discussions, been down to the site just to... Because at this stage, you haven't got the luxury to kind of re-tender with fresh people. If you are, I think it's a bit unethical to do it. Specifically on the ground, right? Yes, because it's the critical path. You haven't got time to waste and it would be, I don't think it would be unfair to waste new people's time on pricing it. You are dependent on the resilience of your supply chain, particularly at Groundworks. You see that in the companies that we work closely with, a lot of them have their favored groundworker and they have one, which is a risk on its own because if something happens to that subcontractor, you can see why they have a... They are so reliant and like to have one or two favored groundworkers because that relationship have been able to start really quickly. It helps so many negotiations early on with clients, helps you secure work and being agile is so critical, I think, in these early stages. With... So, I'm nervous now. I'm your boss again, obviously. I'm a bit nervous that this project that we're starting on, high risk since central London or whatever, flagship project for us is really important and yeah, we've gone through the tender stage, gone through pre-con and they said you're going to start in June and we'll have a decision by March. That decision squeaks into April, it's now April and all of a sudden it's halfway through April and there, yet you've got a lot of intent, now it's May and you may be starting in June and you've got the contract and you've quite rightly said and I think it was the correct answer to say that specifically on the groundwork's package, re-tendering is something you don't necessarily need to do if the estimator has done things right. However, and apologies to all my estimating friends out there, of which there are many, I am worried that you're going to have not a huge amount of time to procure perhaps the single most important package on the project. It might not be the most important but it's high risk and it starts everything off. So at what point, because you said, oh yeah, they're all down the pub and they were celebrating and have won this job and then that's Friday, on Monday they're like Chris, here's the handover document, get cracking, ruffle your hair and say off your pot, that screams out to me, a huge problem. So at what point in that project program or tender program that I was outlining, April May, June, when do you think you should start to be involved because I don't think you can trust the estimate, again, no slight on estimating, but it's a different set of risk allocation and understanding that QS goes through. So when should you be involved? Yeah, it's a tough one to really give a firm answer for because I was typically, job was handed over, then you're procuring literally the next day, you didn't even have a chance to kind of set up the project, you might be just procuring packages early without having that fully aligned team and your own understanding of that project, because the ideal world for me would be, let's just say, we think we're getting close on this. If we win it, we need to have a conversation internally, like have like a pre almost like a pre meeting before it's secured, a couple of weeks at least out and then you can sort of flag some risks from a practical side of things. So if I was an owner of a main contracting business and I was going through this process and I had a team of QS's estimate as project managers, I would be doing like feasibility almost with those guys way in advance of securing it. And you don't want to get to burdensome with loads of meetings and lots of time, but there should be some kind of, you know, you're going to get a good feel for, are we going to win this? We might win this. So if so, getting the right people in the room, bringing a QS into some of these negotiations early on before the contracts let, bringing the project manager in, anyone who's got those kind of construction expertise, and then just having a practical sit down saying, look, if we win this, the key risk elements, the top three items we need to close off of this, this and this, groundwork needs to basically be procured straight away. So we're going to use PH, Paul Heming, ground where I think you want to do that, mate. Just getting back in, talk to them, meet them on site or whatever, get to really understand their availability, right? Because that's so key, but I think subcontractors can't just turn on a dime necessarily. So get them involved early. So it's that early contract to engagement, but also that early kind of project team, delivery team engagement, I would say in the smaller organizations and main contractors, I didn't really happen when I was there, but on reflection, that's something I would like to talk about. I mean, this goes back to, and I think you need to rewind if you're new to the show to the roundabout episode 150 somewhere around there, Chris and I are sitting down about what is the new way to manage your supply chain in terms of subcontractors and is building that pipeline, building that relationship, so that you can actually say to them, you know, need to rely on you, you're one of two in this tender, and we're not going to re-tender it, or we're going to do whatever, but you've got to help me to win this work, and then we can work on this together, which is often quite the challenge with specialists, so just this conversation alone is making me reflect on my own experience, and so when we won work at my former employer almost a decade ago now, amazingly, the way that we would work, so I was managing a team of say 10, 12 QS's, and I was a commercial lead, and if we were winning a new job or we were, it smelled right, I would go kind of like on behalf of the commercial team to iron out any pre procurement that we were doing, which for us was a little bit less than you would have with the ground worker, and also fully ascertain what's going on, and I, the impact that had on projects once I had been involved to the ones that previously is absolutely massive, so I definitely think you want a QS in the room, or a commercially minded person in the room for that pre, for that period that I described as April, May, and June, right, because you don't want to just give you the QS, right, it's Monday off your pop, we've got to get a ground worker on site in four weeks, that's hell, isn't it? And it's complete, it doesn't work, so that definitely strikes me as something that needs to be done. Okay, so we've barely done anything in it, but I think we've outlined kind of what the expectation would be before you getting the call and it's Monday and you need to procure, right? After the break, let's come back and it's Monday morning and now we're going to devise our procurement strategy and actually execute the procurement on this package. Oh dear, can I go for a beer first? No. In construction today, a severe shortage of trades has become the norm. We talk about it a lot on the show, but for a main contracting business to thrive, you must create an environment that attracts subcontractors. At C-Link, we've worn the hats of subbies, main contractors, and we genuinely know what both sides needs. For main contractors, effective prequel is the linchpin of your success on any project. If you had real-time data on your supply chains, insurance, accreditations and financials, and even a wider pool of subcontractors to speak to, that would empower decision making. For subcontractors, they want to receive comprehensive tenders with everything that they need to give you a good price. If you do that, you will massively increase your tender return rates. So, if you're a main contractor and you want to learn how to access real-time prequel data, grow your supply chain and deliver world-class tenders you need to see C-Link. To find out more, you will be able to click a video in the show notes right now and also book a demo to speak to one of our team. We look forward to speaking to you soon. Right. Okay. We've had a good weekend on the booze, Chris, and it's Monday morning. It's our example. We've gone through pre-con, you've been involved at some stage in pre-con, and it's Monday morning. We're handing over the project to you. I'm now the estimating department pre-con, hand over the package to you, and I want to know what you're going to do and what the key components of this groundwork procurement is going to be. It's May, sorry, it's June the 1st when we're winning this project, and the program, our main contract, says we're starting on site on July the 1st. You've got a month. How do we go about procuring this groundwork package? Bit nervous now, Paul. Well, there's a part of me, right, that wants to get the information release schedule done, so let's assume this work under a JCT contract and the IRS could be down to the architects, but most of the time, that's lined through, and it's down to the main contractor to produce, which I kind of agree with because the main contractor should control the elements of that. So you really need to get that together, and the reason why I say that is because you need to have a line in the sand of when you need construction issue information from them to procure the groundwork, essentially. So if you don't have that, are you hoping, by the way, is the reason why you're doing this? Because you don't want to be on site on the 1st of July, and you're trying to find a page. You're so readable. But actually, this is world-class procurement, right? Actually, take a moment, have a look at the information, do I have everything that I need, and if I don't, that might give me breathing space. Is that what you're saying? You read me like a book, Paul. What are you asking for or checking in the IRS to try and create an environment where you don't have all the information that you want? What are you asking for? I look like I'm hungry for an EOT and I really am not listening. It's Monday morning. It's not even lunch yet. This is classic. I'm not sure if this is world-class procurement. Some people would say it, some people would say it isn't, but I'm liking where you're going. Go on. You've got to protect yourself commercially, right? Yeah, absolutely. And you've promised, you said, "Yeah, look, we're going to start on site for the client. Everyone's happy." But I would say, and this is no reflection on structure engineers, but a lot of the extension of times I had were down to structure engineers information at the start, and there is a lot of problems that I can kind of curve early on. So if you haven't prepared that IRS, it starts to become a bit tricky on not the claim, because you can still do a claim and put that in. But when you're managing it, you've got to start from the very beginning at how you're going to set the scene. You're going to set the standard. We've done our IRS, right? It might not have every single component, but get the core stuff down and at least then plot that out with your project manager and send it over to the client and the client's team. Get it over early. Yeah, definitely. It's critical, even if it's not in its final, because you can still have revision, you can have red one, two, three, and you're going to have hoped at this stage that the construction program has been at least fleshed out a bit more than the tender program. Maybe there's logistics, maybe there's site boundary, maybe there's something in there, some little crumb of joy for you. So your principal idea is Monday morning by the end of Monday. You want to have sat down with your ops guy, your project manager, your site manager, whoever, sat down with the estimating team and actually said, "Right, first and foremost, we've got one month. Is there any room to maneuver that?" So you'll look and then you'll write to the client and say, "Great to meet you, I'm Chris. You're going to love me. These are the bits and pieces of information we need. Can you provide them by day X? Otherwise, we're going to have a problem." Essentially, yes, so you'd be submitting a request for information on RFI. This is a two-pronged approach, right? This is really interesting. I asked you to procure a groundwork package for me with a strict and tough deadline and rather than do anything down the chain, you've gone straight up the chain and said, "I need X, Y and Z," so just almost push that back towards the client to give you a better chance of doing better work down the chain. So that now talks to me about down the chain. We're on Tuesday. Yeah. So obviously, RFI number one goes in. Please issue construction issue information. So that is obviously the first instance, but then you'll be reviewing that again with your project team again and they would even flesh out even further RFI's and get clarifications on it. They are very adept at understanding technical information, more so than a lot of QS's, I guess. Definitely. Oh, they're definitely you, Paul. I'm reasonable at it, but not as good as a project manager or a construction manager would be. Then you are trying to, so day one sorted, but it doesn't mean you stop until you wait for that information to come back. You've still got to progress your package, right? So at the minute, there's no information to issue to the subcontractors. Well, there is, because they've already given you, you've got three prices, right? No, but it's still tender information, right? So we've still got the three subcontractors that we've got, but there's, like I said, there's no new information today that I need to issue, but let's call them down to site. We've asked for the request, we've requested further information. Actually, Mr. subcontractor, is there anything that you see that we should be requesting further clarity on? So they might actually say, "Oh, you know what we could do with more." There's no rebar information. We need a rebar scheduling. Yeah. Most people would pick that up if they're a site manager or whatever, but they might say, "Well, what's the rebar content? What's rebar scheduling for this?" And again, that then stimulates more queries that go over a back and forth on-- You're already into IRS Rev 2 by the time it's Tuesday evening. Yeah. And then this is why, in the first part of the show, I mentioned it does depend on how diligent everyone's been. And if it is a really complicated build, like a double story basement, there's going to be a lot of queries. And it's more complex. But if you were putting down strict foundations in a field, there's probably a lot less. So answer me this then, because you're talking about a situation where precon has been uber diligent, right? This is a very technical package, blah, blah, blah. Take me to a place, and I'm sure you've been on those projects where the precon team hasn't been as diligent as you'd have hoped, right? And so Monday, you're calling up the clients and saying, "Hey, nice to meet you. I'm Chris. I'm by the way, I'm going to send over an IRS. Maybe we're going to have a coffee on site," or something like that, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Be good to me. You're going to get to see them on Tuesday when you're walking around with these subs. Now, you send that over, and it actually really ignites some frustration in the client. And you're sat down with them, and they say, "Well, I want to start on site on the first of July. Why didn't the estimators come over this? Why didn't this come out and negotiate?" I'm annoyed. And you start off on the wrong foot. What are you going to do about it? So, obviously, the client relationship is really important. And it can be a real difficult one for the QS to manage, because they are, when pounds and notes are in... You're the bad guy. Yeah. And you're the one who's commercially, you can be seen to be commercially kind of cavalier as I've been labeled as when I was young. Permercially cavalier. Yeah. So, it is a difficult one. But at this stage, IRS goes in the RFI. These are normal processes to go through with the client team. But what could be even better than just sending it is saying, "Look, let's meet on site and the architect's structural engineer. Let's go through it. Let's get the detail together and work together as a team, rather than it being absent. And you're just faring over by. So, you've got to have a personal touch with them, too. It's a bit a lot. Yes. So, rather than being on the hunt, appearing to be on the hunt for an EOT as we were facetiously saying, what you're actually saying is, "Look, Mr. Client, what I need from you is X, Y, and Z. I don't think we've got that now. It'd be great if you bought the structural engineer, blah, blah, blah, everyone together, and let's just hit the ground running." And you can sell it to them as, "I'm trying to hit the ground running here and not put any blockers in." So, it's actually, rather than you frustrating the client by saying, "We need X, Y, and Z." You're actually putting your arm around them and saying, "We need X, Y, and Z to make sure we hit our targets." So, help me with that. That actually also really then helps you long-term. If they don't do it, and it's about the whole approach, right? And this is the approach to claims, to notices, to everything, right? If your approach on Monday morning is calling the client and saying, "Cool, I've got a couple of RFI. It's probably the easiest way for us to do this is to all meet on site." And if we do that, everything's all good for the first of July. When that doesn't happen, you've done everything you can, as opposed to just being like, "Here's my RFI list, answer that." It's a different approach, isn't it? And on top of that, by saying, actually on site on Tuesday, with the groundwork subcontractors to take them through, so you look serious that you're doing everything you can to get started. So, it's that best endeavours, reasonable endeavours, kind of, how are we supposed to operate? And you've got to show that in some ways, depending on whatever your contract says. But the right thing to do is, if you've agreed to start date of first of July, whatever it is, first of June, you've got to do everything that would help that process get move forward. We're bouncing around a lot here, right? But I actually think we've perhaps, because I'm pushing you to go and procure this instantly, and I've got much time. One of the main things that I would have done, certainly at the start of a project, is I would have had a slightly different approach to you, whereby I'd have gone straight for, right, I'll set up the meeting as soon as possible with my counterpart or the client or whoever, that I would have tried to do that, build that relationship straight away. I probably wouldn't have been as savvy as you to go IRS, RFI's. I'd have probably gotten into the detail a bit too much myself to start. But get the relationship, say that, that's put for like Wednesday, Thursday, then I'll go into the detail so then I can speak with them. I've almost lost a week by that point. So I totally endorse what you're saying. So, let's now imagine that the client, you meet him on site on Tuesday on Wednesday, right? And he says, here's everything. See you on the 1st of July on site. So you haven't managed to navigate a way to extend it by six weeks or whatever. You now need to get your ducks in a row. You've got four weeks, basically, to pick a contractor, get your Rams done. It's a tough ass to do this, right? How are you going to do what the key components of your next steps? Then it is a matter of, I mean, that's why the meeting on the site with the subcontractors is so important, because you're going to get a feel of their availability to kind of mobilize as well, that you're hoping that these guys are within a reasonable difference to each other. There's no chasm. There's no one that's at a rock bottom price. They're all within the same. And you've worked with them before. This is like an ideal world situation. So the favorite subcontractors, it would be a matter of almost setting up pre-let meetings pretty quickly with them. So this is construction issue information, and that's gone out. So I hear what you're saying, Paul, that we might be able to start on that date, but depending on what's in that construction, if issue information, there could be something in there that might elongate the period for you to be able to start on site. So regardless of what was in that, and if there is that, you want to be bucking in those pre-let meetings the week after saying that. Are you basically saying, sorry to interrupt you, are you saying, are you kind of treating their first tender to your pre-con is tender? You're not mid-tender, and then you'll have to do best and final offer afterwards. So your first meeting with them is pretty much mid-tender. Yeah, more or less. And this is high-stakes stuff, isn't it, on the most important package on the project? It's critical path, isn't it? And that's why, and it sets the scene for the whole of the project. If you're late and you've caused a delay at the very start of the project, trying to get claw that back is almost impossible, but it's difficult. And on top of that, it doesn't set the whole relationship with the project team, et cetera, moving forward, and you don't want to be on the back foot procuring and performing your commercial activities. So it is critical, but that's why the resilience of the supply chain is so important. You're going to want to have really good relationships with them. You're going to want to trust them. You're going to want to be able to say, look, out of those three we met, contractor A and B can start, contractor C account. So unfortunately, they're going to be on. So you're down to two. Yeah. And it is the pre-let-meant that needs to follow up straight away. So you send them the construction issue information the day or day after. We're operating super quick tournament. It is much quicker than any projects that I would have worked on. Yeah. And then we have been on these projects. So it wasn't necessarily groundworks out to procure really quickly. Stuff like joining lifts, I've been on like a fit-out project, which was absolutely rapido turn around. But that needs to happen very quickly, those pre-let meetings. And within that, you're going to be dotting the arts and crossings with those subcontractors. And then you and your project team, so your project manager, construction manager, maybe your director, we're saying that we've assessed it. This is our tender recommendation. We should go with contractor B and you then take that forward. And it is high stakes. And you could miss things. And that is a harsh reality of trying to get the subcontractor to start. Well, putting the pressure on your team to start on site in agreeing a deal with the client that you're going to start the next day. And I've seen it. I've worked in these organizations. I've seen people go, "Oh, should we start?" There's such an eagerness to start. And like I said, the RFI and IRS process I go through is to protect the business commercially, because if I didn't, you're not going to highlight delays as easy and make them as apparent when people haven't stuck to their obligations to give you that information. And the clock starts ticking. And I've always advised clients, we've worked with end clients before, like developers, and just spend a bit more time, like a week or two, getting the information together. So you're not putting loads of pressure on your team to start and miss something in procurement, because I've seen it happen so many times. Can you sell a delayed start to a client? So again, you've gone back with your RFI list and your IRS, right? And said, "I've got all of these different potential hiccups, right? I know you want me to start on the 1st of July, Mr. Client. Are you sure you want to do that? Because I can get it organized, but you're not going to be ready. And can you sell it to them, have you in the past sold it to them as, if you do that, my prelim, I'm going to bring my site manager and bring my health and say, "X, Y, everything's going to start ticking. Do you want me to do that? Because is that way to sell it?" Yeah, I think that is the easy way to kind of sell it is you've, again, down to being diligent at that estimating and negotiation stage is, we've flagged these risks. And some companies out there that might not flag risks because they're like, "Well, I've got project managers sat around, get them on site, and if we get an existential time, fair enough, you see that happen." I'm not sure that's from the outset, their mindset, but they know that they're covered from a risk perspective. But I've been on so many projects and seen firsthand that I can tell instantly, "Well, there's lots of information or structural that isn't there. Where's the blow ground drainage, for example? Sometimes that might be a glaring omission of seeing that happen." And like, no, the M&E guys doing it, it's like, "No, no, it's the structure engine is doing the blow ground drainage." Yeah, yeah. And it's these little things that might not have been fleshed out that early. I mean, I think critical. Yeah, I think what this conversation is highlighting to me as your manager in this facetious or fictional, sorry, contractor is, "We've got to get you or someone who is representing the commercial team into those conversations early." Because big red warning, like for me, is what you just said about the mid-tender meeting. It's no critique of you, but you're in a mid-tender meeting on a package you know nothing about, or you've got less than a week of experience on a project you know nothing about, and you're procuring a package that's going to be running for the next 20 weeks, high risk, and he's going to set the tone. And in your own words, you said, "Mistakes can't happen because I've got a gun to my head," which is totally understandable. But how do we mitigate those mistakes? How do we actually impress upon the client? Because why is it that with this groundwork's package, you're coming in as surveyor and actually saying, "Okay, Mr. client, look, we need to close off blow ground drainage, blah, blah, all these different RFIs. We've got five RFIs, we need to close off." And they're thinking, "Well, I could have done this a month ago." And they're thinking, like, "I want to get started. Who's this guy now coming in?" And you're doing it to protect the business. Whereas if you did that four weeks forward, you actually understood that it come, I always felt, at least, I'm going to be off piece today, but that an understanding of a project literally comes with time. The more time you spend on it, the more you get it, right? And in those first few weeks, it's all a bit of a haze. And then you start to get into kind of like the rhythm of it. So if you're involved early, that means you can flag to the client, "We need these five RFIs," otherwise you probably put at risk that that day, which they're only going to thank you for. I know you're at 10 stage, and there's this feeling I've been told before, interested to get your view on it, is don't get a QS involved at 10 stage, because you're just a risk manager in some ways, right? I asked you what you're going to do, and you said, "We're going to try and find all of these different risks and manage them." And people feel like you don't want that when you're trying to sell. But I think in many cases, once you're down the line with a negotiation, and you're one of two, and you say, "Look, this is our delivery team," and they're worried about X, Y, and Z, they want to help you manage it, that's no bad thing, right? No, no, definitely. And there's a case when I was on a project, and I actually got invited. It was about two weeks, or it was round about the contracts being negotiated. So it was a little bit in advance, let's just say. But we had quite a lot of good leading times, and there's a lot of strip-out involved, except so I knew I had quite a bit of time on this. But I, bit of a geek, but I look at surveys, and so you've got obviously a spare staff, like contamination, when you're working in these existing buildings, you've got to make sure that all the necessary surveys are in place. And I was worked on a previous project that had led contamination. And there was a stairwell that needed to be completely shot blasted, the existing railings, and they used to use lead paint in these old buildings. And I said, "There's only one run a lead test on the stairwell," because it was the main stairwell into the project, and for the whole thought to get around. And if they didn't, it wouldn't have been the biggest end of the like complete catastrophic effects. But what would have happened is we would have had to have had that stairwell, would have been out for a period of time, because if it had led contamination, it would have been more difficult to remove, et cetera, and things that go around that. And just by doing that, it made them think, "All right, we'll get that done," because knowing that in advance, if it is or not, would mean that we can allow for it early on, and it won't be a difficult conversation to have had because we've had to completely re-sequence our works to accommodate this issue. And I think I was probably reviewed as a bit of a cautious QS and a bit of like, "Why are you picking that up?" But genuinely, using your knowledge that you've learned over a period of time, you think, "I've spotted that. Is anyone thought about it?" Because I'd rather just get that agreed right now, and we're going to sequence it this way, and there's an extra five grand for it, then have to go through that process as a variation later on down the line. And you've been transparent, and you look like you've been thought about the project holistically. Yeah, yeah. Okay. And so, in conclusion, I feel like we haven't even talked about ground works, really, but I mean, that is the way sometimes these conversations go. I think what we've kind of covered is that it's really quite important for that estimate, the pre-construction to construction handoff, estimated to QS, whatever you want to call it, should not be the passing over of, "We, we've won the job. There you go. Get cracking. There's got to be something more to it than that." And obviously, that is being a bit facetious as to describe that that would be the way it goes, but quite often, it is quite clinical. And my experience always taught me that the more you involve at the end, the commercial team, to help you navigate these difficult conversations with a client. And in this case, the groundwork, which is coming right up in your face, the better you'll be, subby relationship, resilience of your supply chain, whatever you call it. If you've got any chance on this package that you're telling me about, Chris, you absolutely need to be able to rely on subbies. And you've got to tell them that it's a competitive tender, and they've got to be brought into it. And that's quite a tough thing. So, you're only going to be able to do that if you've managed your subbies well. You've communicated with them. Go back and listen to episode 150 or whatever it is. I should know about. There's too many. So, that is one thing. In terms of, I find it really interesting that I ask you to procure. And the first thing you're doing is looking up the chain, not down the chain. And I think we were saying hunting for an EOT from minute one. And that's probably an unfair characterization, because what you're actually trying to do is hunt for risk, right? And actually manage it. Now, if you're doing that, it's then how can I sell this to the client as a benefit to them, as opposed to a problem for them? And yeah, I think, is there anything that I haven't covered there that we've discussed? Or is there anything else that you want to add? And perhaps we come back to this in a follow on episode? No, I think you've summarized it well. I mean, you could go into an EOT critic of what's included into a groundwork package, but that might bore the listeners. But I think because it could be, you know, you're on a fit-out project. And I said, that's when I've had a gun to my head at a period. Or schools or something like that. Yeah, that's extremely time-pressured projects. And the overarching thing is the resilience of your supply chain. There's ways, obviously, we can protect ourselves commercially, et cetera. But on these tight turnaround projects, supply chain is key. Yeah, okay, that makes sense. One final question, if I can, just going back to something that you said, and I just want to go back into it, just looking at my nose here, you said, "Often, there is an eagerness to start, an over eagerness to start, right? What do you mean by that?" So the client would be like, "Everyone wants to start because it's a big milestone, and they think, yeah, we've got everything in place. Yeah, we're ready. Let's go, let's go, let's go, let's go." People could be naive, and it depends on the different types of clients. So I've worked with Mr. and Mrs, estate groups, developers, prisons, government. Yeah, all of them. And they might want to start for various different reasons. Mr and Mrs. want to start because they want to move into the new home. A developer might want to start because finance starts on their project, you know? And then, you know, estate groups, they might want to get a project completed because it falls within a financial year, or they want to need to account for costs. There's lots of reasons, but if they took a step back and looked at, assessed all their projects, appreciate Mr and Mrs. won't have that data, but they could look back at their projects and think, "Well, our projects have lost. When do they lose their, when does an existential time happen in these projects?" And you'd probably see it set start during structural stages, could happen later on, for sure. But the projects I worked on lost a lot of time during that bit. Can we assess that data and say, "Realize, actually, what was the root cause?" And obviously, I was a bit flipping and saying, "It's always structural engineering. That's no criticism on them." But they could be something in that it's unknown. It's this early stage. And honestly, I reflect back on my data, which would be anecdotal, when it was a structure engineer, and I don't say they caused a delay, but that's where the information needed further clarity on. Let's take a step back and think, "This is not comprehensive at this stage. If we start, we're just going to get a delay." So, would you rather start a bit later and have a really great relationship with the client, or would you rather start and not have a great relationship with the client because you put an existential time in time? And I think that is something that the main contractors and these estate groups and the people advising them, so project managers, the architect, these people, the current contract administrator should actually take a step back and say, "Hey, we understand the delays, of course, the most in this period of time. And it's normally six weeks or whatever. If we spend two weeks here at front doing more, we could do more surveys, we could do a bit more exploratory work." The saving that you get on the prelims as well, right? Yeah, it's an overall time saving and it's an overall cost saving. It's just you don't see it right now. Yeah, but trying to articulate that to clients, where you go to start, it can be challenging of not out to do it with many people, but I've kind of advised people, developers that we've worked closely with and they've asked about information, et cetera, back when I was used to consult, and I was like, "I've raised a load of RFIs. This is not fit to go start, guys. If you start, you're going to be banging your head against the brick wall." So I would recommend you to XYZ before you start. Fantastic. I'm glad I asked you that question because that was an excellent answer. Thank you. We will be back. I will be back next week, guys, as I always am. Chris will be back in four weeks. Chris, thank you for sharing your expertise. World class, I'm going to continue with that one before you mate and I'll see you next time. Thank you, mate. Have you enjoyed it. Cheers, mate. [music]
