Reason To Behold
Restoration and Second chances RTBP EP 183 Ft Jonas the Beloved
We’re just ordinary people who’ve encountered an extraordinary God (the one true God!). From time to time, we have some really cool conversations. So we decided to switch on some mics and make a podcast out of it! Unashamedly Christian, unapologetically unscripted (most times!). And we’re intentional about making Christian concepts both practical and visible in the life of the disciple. Our podcast isn’t intended to be a teaching platform. Instead, it’s a public dialogue designed to cause us (the hosts) and you (the listener) to be provoked with godly thoughts and inspired to walk closer with God. And also, to gain a practical perspective of the Christian faith lived out!
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- Broadcast on:
- 29 Sep 2024
- Audio Format:
- other
Carl Lentz, Mike Todd, when Christian leaders four, should they be given a second chance, or should they just be written off? Let's talk about that in today's episode. (gentle music) Welcome back to another episode of Reasons with the whole podcast with Tolly Talks. - And Arnold Reasons. - Spoiler alert, this isn't really about getting into the business of those types of-- (laughing) But we recently did an episode where we were kind of just going through a recent podcast episode between Mike Todd and Carl Lentz, where they were talking a bit about the story of what happened, what happened after, and just some of our thoughts more generally around when the brethren find themselves in situations that they will not otherwise be in. And I hear that Jonas, he had his headphones on, and he was screaming. He had some things he wanted to say. - Yeah. - So what are you saying, bro? First of all, if we had to have you on the podcast, I should introduce you, right? - Yeah, I was gonna say introduce the man. - Please, Tolly, give him his honor. Give him the royal introduction. - Ah, Jonas AKA the beloved husband, father, worship leader, pastor, just a good, all-round brother. And he's not wearing sunglasses inside. Don't worry if you're seeing him on video. He's not a Eurobud demon. (laughing) - No way. - He is actually convalese. - Yeah. - And yeah, these are prescription, prescription eyewear. So don't get too far, yeah? - Sapologist. - Exactly. (laughing) - Hey man, thank you guys. Appreciate it, I'm glad to be here. Has been of one wife just to be precise. (laughing) - And add on their comedian as well. (laughing) But yeah, bro, so what did you think about some of the things you heard us talking about? What were your thoughts on some of it? - I think I was having a conversation with Tolo, even before then, I think he explained to me before I watched the episode. And I was just saying that, according to Galatian, obviously, the Bible says that we should restore those who have spiritually fallen. Let's just put it that way. Because we know that Christians are, you're not basically, what's the word I'm looking for? It's like, you're not immune to falling. You can fall if there's a certain lifestyle that you tend to pick up, and eventually you fall. But when you're in the eyes of a sort of mega church, people are watching you 21st century church, whereby it's like you're on TV or on social media. And then something major like that happens. The restoration will need to be a little bit more different, but I don't think, obviously, that that's it for the person. But I think the restoration would have to be very different. I told her, I said the responsibility in which, or the accountability this person, which has to give to the person, obviously, they'll be under, or the ministry in which they'll be serving under, like they have to be quite accountable to a certain degree, whereby it's like, well, this has happened before. We're not saying that you will do it again, but we also have to be, take measures, set measures to say, yo, you're a leader of the church, you, there's certain people. I mean, think about it, brother, yeah? How many people do you think must have left the church hearing what had happened? Loads of people, how many people were disappointed? How many families were disappointed? Loads of family. So his restoration will also be a good thing, an example of, okay, God can do this, because we see if we scrap him off and be like, listen, you're done. - But I guess, I guess, question for you is I think, when I hear about the restoration, I didn't necessarily put it into a leadership context, right? - Okay. - I'm thinking, okay, this is someone who, in their walk, with God, has stumbled, so we restore them, and they are restored into a relationship, or whatever, however, you want to trust them, you know? But I didn't think that was about a leader in a position, because it talks about how teachers would be held to a higher standard, for example. So that's what I'm trying to understand, is with the restoration, how does that work from a leadership perspective? As a piece of that, look, if me, you and Arnold, none of us own leaders in our churches. - Not we leaders. - Let's say we're not, right? So you pastor a church, I don't pastor a church, right? So let's say, for example, none of us pastor a church, one of us has a sin issue, that's a little bit different that we deal with between the three of us, very different for me versus, okay, now you're a pastor of a church, you're a pastor of a church, the impact is different. - Okay, I think I understand, okay, let's go first, all testament to the New Testament, right? David did something that was not pleasing to the Lord. God didn't just use anybody to go and speak to him. He was a prophet, Nathan, and Nathan didn't just approach him anyhow. Nathan came with, yo, there's this guy, who had, you know what I mean? He came to him and said, King, let me tell you a story. There's this guy who had one sheep, and this dude had 99, and he went after the just, this guy who had one. And David screamed, this guy needs to be killed, and then dropped on him, you are that guy. Literally David is like, whoa, now question is, who restored David? - Here, store them. - Those words that Nathan spoke to him was a restoration, was a rebuke, was an accountability as a king for you to make sure, because the role of a king is to look after people, not to destroy their lives, but he destroyed somebody's life. Not only life, he destroyed somebody's marriage, he killed someone, the whole nation knew about it, because you remember Itafel was one of the servants that he served, who was the father-in-law of the girl that he took, and he held it against him. And he later on, you see in the life of his son, what had happened, you know what I mean? And that's why in the book of Timotee, the Bible says, a leader should be a husband of one life. So if you have multiple, then you shouldn't be in leadership. That means, if this guy is supposed to be restored, you have to check if he's married to one wife. He has to be able to show that. He can't just be restored. Yeah, we prayed for you, we fasted, it's been a year, you've heard a podcast, you never let's go. You know what I mean? It's like, we've got to see to a certain level, whoever is going to be working with him, or whatever church he's going to be planting, or you know, I don't know, you know, these are things that the Lord may be my asking to do. But restoration, I'm not saying the restoration, he should be like a bunch of people just coming to restore him. What I'm saying is that the people around him, he has to be accountable to be able to say, we can see he's a husband of one wife, and his wife testifying, yes, no problem. He does this, he does that, it does it. Even the world has this thing, the world in terms of when it's drunk, you know, you've got an uncle that's always drunk. And then somebody has to check him, your uncle, your home, or you're passing through, you know, Weatherspoon pub or something. They checking him, Paul asks the same thing, this person, you must be able to judge him, you know? But judgment starts in the hearts of the Lord, especially in leadership, like Tolu said, leaders would be judged harshly. And the word harshly means we checking on you and be like, oh no, you're not supposed to do that. Therefore, that position for now, we are restored first. Restoration would mean, obviously, you go through the word of God, you understand exactly what you did was wrong, and you take some time and then be accountable to the point whereby it's like, okay, yes, this guy can actually run ministry and be able to restore other people, then we can trust him, okay, fine, you can go ahead. But none of these things, you leave the ministry here, you've messed up people and then you go somewhere else and then all of a sudden you're like, the Lord restored me now. Listen, we don't know how the Lord is going to do that. (laughing) I think that's my main point, but there are other stuff, you know? Yeah. - And I think you're going on. - No, sorry, I'll go through it. - There you go, go. - I was gonna say, it's interesting, because I think it speaks to kind of one of the things that I was wondering, I think in exploring in our conversation as well, just about like using the example of, if this person had done, like, of course, we understand it was done in a position of leadership, right? But had this been the narrative about a person before they became said leader, or before they even were saved, for example, the way that I think we would perceive some of those things would be slightly different, but then at the same time, the same principles in a lot of ways should still apply, because if I, for example, I'm someone that was known as a womanizer, god forbid it's not me, but that was my journey, and then today I've surrendered, oh, I surrender, Lord, I've given my life to Christ, and then tomorrow I'm now saying, okay, I'm gonna be, or I've been appointed, someone wants to put me in a position where I am leading other people teaching and all of that kind of stuff. Bro, don't close your eyes to the fact that I was a previous womanizer, in my opinion, right? Don't hold me for it, let me for it. - But that's also a different thing, right? That's about don't put new believers in position of leadership. - Bro, even after I've been in the faith for years, bro. Personally, if you asked me personally, like your track record is your track record. I know, I believe that behold all things have become new, your new creation in Christ, I believe all of that, right? But like using the extreme example that we mentioned, I think in the previous episode, about somebody who is a child abuser, for example, right? Like, I would not close my eyes to the fact that someone was once a child abuser, even if they've been in the faith for five, 10, 15 years with no known offense, it's still something I'm gonna consider, right? - I think for me, that is the one that is just different, if that makes sense. So if someone's a womanizer, like I might not even keep an eye on them that much, because, yeah, but I think, because, bro, like that's something that most men deal with, right? Is the opportunity of multiple women, or most people deal with men or female, they deal with the opportunity of multiple partners, cool. But I think that with child abuse and things like that, that for me is like, that's, I don't know, and this is just my personal opinion, that's so far out of the norm, so harmful because it's not often consensual on both sides. Yeah, womanizers, consensual, all good, cool, but child abuse is different. - I think, yes, that's true. I totally agree with both points, but also you have to know that we're only personalizing these things based on how we feel about this thing. But how is this thing in the eyes of the Lord when it comes to this person being restored? Because that person, the reason why they are like that is because of the state of the mind, that in which, you guys know the scripture way, it says that we do not be conformed to this, well, but be transformed by the environment. If you are conformed to this world, which is the word fashioned, you will definitely act like this world, you will be a child abuser because there are pastors who are child abusers, you know? That's the truth. I mean, Catholic priests have been at it for years. Unfortunately, there are also pastors who are abusing women in the pulpit, and then there are other pastors who we've known in America, I don't wanna mention names who we've known came out using men. They're like, whoa. - But I think that's the differentiation point, right? You're someone who, like Carlens, for example, who's cheated on his wife. It seems consensual. So there's an element of, well, that's just you sinning against your wife. When it comes to abuse, it's like, you've actually taken someone from another person, and actually it feels different in implication. - True, but you know what I find out? It wasn't just, you know, cheating is like, you cheated once, to me, yeah, you cheated once, and then you're like, you know, you do like Jimmy Sarga thing. I had seen before the Lord and Lord who gave me, had taken another man's wife. But this dude had a girlfriend. He was, he had a long relationship with another female, one of those didn't do it. In other words, it was so, it's like it almost became a lifestyle because there was, you know what I mean? - But I don't know if that makes any difference. For me personally. - There's no much difference in terms of sin, but in terms of accountability, it kind of is because the, what's the repercussions of that is kind of different. Like, I had watched some of the stuff on their podcast, and every moment I'm watching, I'm cringing, and I'm like, (laughs) 'cause I'm like, mm, bada, like, mm, but I could understand it's hard because I could tell it's repentant heart and knowing that what it did was wrong. But at the same time, my, I'm trying so hard not to judge him according to the flesh, 'cause I'm like, no, how does the father feel about him? I'm like, okay, if restoration has come and the people in his life are spoken to him. - But you know what, I think that's the fair question because how does God actually feel about him? Because even with David, for example, yeah, there were certain things David wanted to do for God where God was like, no, you've got too much blood on your hands, you can't do that for me. And that's what I find interesting is that is there a point where God is like, I still love you, you're still my son, but actually that thing you can't do anymore because David wanted to build the temple for God, but God said you've got too much. And it wasn't, 'cause some people say, "Oh, but God is the one that sent him to war." That's, I don't think that's what I was talking about. It's the blood that David put on it. So for example, when David was gonna go kill Nabor, yeah, that's the kind of blood I think he's talking about. We're like, you were gonna go murder all those people. Yeah, this wasn't God told me to smite the Amalekites. No, no, no, you got pissed off. So you were gonna go do this thing. Yeah, I'm telling you. And that's where it's like, but God loved David. He still said he's the man after my own heart, but there were certain things that God was like, you can't do this for me anymore. And that's what I find interesting with, God can forgive and restore, but does that mean that you still get to do the things you were meant to do? Moses didn't go into the promise lab. Yeah, I think because God knows us and he knows the future and he knows everything. So, and I think perhaps it is for our own good that he does and is actually, I would like to say it is always for our own good, that he doesn't want us to do that because the heart of God is very, 'cause he's so forgiven, he's so kind, he's so loving that he sees things that we don't see, you know? And that's why he chose Solomon over David to build the temple because, you know, and obviously we know that that was in typology of what God was going to do in the future and the promise is what you and I have received. But nevertheless, God still told David, - No, no, you know? - Yeah, yeah, go ahead, bro. - The other thing, as well, I think that's a distinctive point is that we're talking about what God prevented and how God made a decision on what someone could or couldn't do, right? And I think that's a very specific thing because the other side of it is, though you may not be able to do X, it doesn't necessarily mean that you can't do Y or Z. Hypothesis, for example, right? You've got somebody like a Collins, right? Maybe it is the case that he's not gonna be in a pastoral role, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's not gonna be in a paid role as an advisor, right? Do you get what I'm saying? - And I think this was the part of the conversation that we were having because for me, what I struggle with a little bit is that even in him being a paid advisor is in a position of influence. And our human condition is when we put people in that position of influence, we put them on a pedestal often. There are people that are looking up to him and going to follow his example. And my thing is like, what example are they following? You know, like, yeah, go on. - Yeah, no, no, it's gonna show us, bro. - No, I'm just wondering, like, I think sometimes the way that we treat these celebrity pastors, which in itself is a wild thing, right? I think it's really detrimental to people as a whole because people are built to be followers, but at the moment, we're putting humans in front of them to lead them instead of God. - Whereas I would probably say, in my honest opinion, we need to just do a better job of, I think, helping people to be more discerning and be more, I think, level about how we perceive these other people who are on these pedestals. 'Cause I think that's where the real problem is, right? Even the greatest of leaders, the greatest of teachers, the greatest parts that evangelists, whatever the role is, right, insert it here, is still a human being, right? They are still capable of falling. They are still capable of... They too need the same cross that we need, right? They need the same blood. And that's not to say, for example, that, because I'm saying that, therefore, they should just basically live reckless and say, "Oh, well, we all need Jesus," right? But I'm saying that because I think the sooner that we fix the way that we see these leaders and we stop, for lack of a bit of words, and I think it is the right word, idolizing them. - I like that. - The sooner that we can actually mature and become who Christ is calling us to, because this is the thing, right, there's that whole separation between the pulpit and the tooth, right? Where we see these as the sacred people, those who are the anointed, the ones who go into the secret chambers with God to receive his word, whereas on the receiving end, we are the ones who need to be... We're the ones that need the word to be taught to us, read to us, and again, accepting the fact that, yes, there is a place for teaching, there is a place for growing, being decided, that's all important, but it's to come to a place of maturity. And I think that's where we're lacking a lot of the time. - I like that because Paul said the same things that the church in Corinth, when he told them about this brother, when he read actually historically, the guy who took his father's wife, was actually in leadership. And Paul was saying, Paul was actually saying, why aren't you saying anything about it, right? He says, if I was there, I'm judging already. Before anything happens, he says, handle this guy to say to him, means to handle him to open criticism, where he has to feel some sort of remorse about it, so that he stops what he's doing, because if you are in leadership, there's a certain level of things, certain level of behavior that people expect from you. Paul even said in the same book, he says, I put my body in subjection, so that I don't end up being accustomed to it. Not that I'm gonna lose my salvation, but people, real reputation, will actually be like, you know, this thing, like this guy, that's where I think my dad says something one day to me. He says, Joe, one of the key things that messes up a minister's ministry that God has given him is when he cares more about his reputation than the reputation of Christ. In other words, when he's more about how I feel, let me get this, let me get that, today I feel this, and he is not fearful anymore about, hey, what would Jesus say? Because like it or not, the opening of revelation, he says, this is the revelation of Jesus Christ, and Jesus rebuked these five churches about things that we're doing openly, and he told me, hey, you're doing this, make sure that you solve this thing, otherwise I'm gonna take the candle from you. I'm gonna take a ministry away from you. You're not going to be as decent as in that. He can be in a place of influence, but okay, we get your counsel, we get your this, but my thing is always, okay, you are restored, but you still need, there's no way in the Bible says you can't prove, you have to prove. - What do you mean by restored? - You know, restored, when it comes to a place of sane-minded that it doesn't do exactly what it was doing before. - So not restored positionally? - No, no, no. - But restored in terms of almost like faith, in terms of walking back to the path you need to be willing. - If you are child molester, I'm not restoring you to the child molester, to the kindergarten, Bible schools Sunday morning, no. I'm saying, brother, join us for intercession. I'll put you in intercession too. You must lead us for eight hours, you know. Pray more, because it's just, and over the years, then they prove themselves. They don't prove, it says, you know, is it approved unto God? What's the script I forgot? - No, a workman, a workman, a workman to God, yeah. - Sure, exactly, that word proof to God means actually, you see the word and you see how the word works in you, that you're like, actually, this thing is no longer as used to be where it takes over me, you know. Whereby, I just do anything, anyhow, any day. Now, I don't mean to be harsh about it. I think that same judgment can be passed on to me as a person, you know. I love what I don't say that, okay, you're in a place of leadership. Shouldn't that situation be the same as somebody who's not in a place of leadership? Absolutely, but differently, because the person who's not, when I say the same, but you bring the person and say, "Oh, brother." We noticed that, it's like I noticed this guy wonder when leadership we were in the meeting. I don't know if I can mention this, but we are in a, it wasn't like a church meeting, it was more like a youth gathering at the back. These two was busy on a site that you and I know he's not good for. He was busy on a site and he was just flicking and then he looked, I was like, "Ah, man, I've got it." But I said, "Nah, let me call him." So, after the church, I was like, "Bro." After the youth meeting, I was like, "Bro, are you struggling with something?" He's like, "No, no, no." I said, "No, I saw, you know." I saw the Bible says, you know, as it was a job that says, I set a covenant with my eyes that I saw. And I was looking up upon, you know, I told him that. I said, "Bro, I saw you, your covenant is going left." (laughing) And he dropped in shame. And I told him, don't be afraid because I think the Lord allowed me to see so that I can help you. I can tell you that this thing is gonna be destructive to your ministry, to this and this and that. You're my brother, Les, what's going on? But if it's the place of, if he was in leadership, then the number one thing I will do is, first of all, remove him from the leadership position because I don't want him to hurt the people and I don't want him also to become a, you know, to feel so burdened about it. So I'm happy, obviously, that maybe he'll soon decide and say, "Okay, you're not going to be in a place of leadership." But then again, now that he's well and working with brother, Mike Todd, I believe, as on the pastoral council and all that kind of stuff. - I feel like something I've been thinking about is that leadership gives you access and I think that that's the thing that, for me, is the toughest part because anytime you've got someone in a position of leadership, they have access to people that other people would as well and they have influence. For me, it's more the access because people give you access to speak into their lives, people give you access into their homes and into, you know, they trust you. And I think that's why it's like, as leaders, we have to be trustworthy and once that trust is broken, what does restoration look like for that? How do you restore that trust? - I would say, over time, you have to, because we, remember, that's what I gave of a Galatian Six, where he says, "Those who are fallen, restore them in the spirit of meekness, less also and, you know, less in the spirit of meekness so that we don't also fall into the same thing because temptation is to every man, you know? And in the world that we're living in, well, it's a fast-paced move and everything is almost free and it's easier to have access to things that, back in the days, was just a dream. Especially when you guys have stated rightly, when we idolize these pastors and ministers and when we idolize them, they feel idolized so they feel like they are on the pedestal and they feel like, whoa, nobody can get to me and then all the ladies in the world are looking at them, it's, you know, the shirt is unbuttoned all the way to your belly button. I don't know why, but anyway, no, that's something I never, I'm like, you know, anyway, there's another one I don't want to mention his name, I'm like, dude, like you, you're not magic Mike, you're worshiped, you're gossiped. (laughs) What are you doing, this is like magic Christian Mike, like, bro, like, like, you see what I'm trying to say, it's like, who is talking to them and say, brother, like, yes, I understand we're living in a different world whereby you are not judged by how you dress, but at the same time, there is a level of decency and modesty and work that we must adhere to as believers. We come just, William McDowell says, my life is not my own, so are you really listening to the Holy Spirit telling you how to do things or not? 'Cause I don't think any man falls without the Holy Spirit ever telling him for years, don't do this, don't do this. You know, I don't know if you guys ever read the story of Jimmy Soagard who the Holy Spirit kept warning him about lust, about altitude, lust, process, 'cause he had this thing, you know? How many times was he found? Three times, three times, bro. And then the third time, his ministry was literally affected. The generation after that, nobody knows about Jimmy Soagard, but we-- - And he said it, I was like, hey? - We know about Rayana Bonke, we know about Billy Graham, we know about Kenneth Heehee again, we know about all these wonderful ministers, we don't know, a lot of people don't know Jimmy Soagard. So the Lord is always gonna be with you, but unfortunately, there are things that once you do it, going back to it, will be very tough, 'cause the Lord is like, no, I know you, and I know that you are weak in that area, I don't want to put you there, just like David. I'm not gonna put you because if I put you there, you're gonna die, you're gonna kill yourself, you know? How many pastors we find out in America who died of drug overdose in the hotel with some lady and find that he was preaching last night, he was preaching on TBN, you know? And these are happening in the Gospel of Christendom. There's another preacher who I was, not that we're gossiping, for years, I kept telling somebody, I'm suspecting this brother, the way he's walking, I said, he's starting to, I said, he's looking 40 a little bit, you know what I mean? I'm like, lipstick, long hair, cutting, shaving, you know? Chest open every now and then and now you find out he's been leaning on the side of dudes. I said, oh, I said, I kind of knew there was a bit of a change. But people are like, oh, I post you, the way you walk, I post, I love your ministry, it's just, you're freeing the youth and the youth are free the way they see, I'm like, no, that's not how, and I post it, it's not how we dress, and I post it, it's no suit and tie, I can have a t-shirt than I'm an apostle, but I don't have to have my t-shirt like this, you know? Where you see my chest here, I'm punchy, like, wait, what, I mean, you get what I mean? I mean, I don't know if I'm harsh guys, but that's just, I'm just, no, I don't hear it, I really do hear it. So I guess probably the one question that I wanted us to circle back on is for the person who is not in leadership, right? Similar scenario, how do we feel if there should be any difference in treatment, they should be dealt with. Their restoration, their, the dealing of it in general, should it be different? - I think there's no position to restore them too. That's the thing for me, like, they're not in leadership anyway. So there's no positional restoration, it's more about repentance, you're going? - No, go ahead, go ahead. - I think for me, it's more about the repentance side of things, the accountability side of things that Jonas was talking about, where you're not restoring them to a position where they are leading people, you're just restoring them from where they've fallen, if that makes sense. - Right, right, right. So everything we were talking about before was more to do with the restoration to the position. - Mm-hmm. - Okay, fine. - So pick, yeah. But I also think I just want to pick back what I told you saying just to answer your question. - Yeah. - Because there's no position to kind of restore them, it's more like leading them too, because you must know the word of God, the reason why there are posts and teachers, and it's to equip people to do the work of ministry eventually. And people must grow. And certain people don't grow the same, okay, told them I grow different than how I'm growing, depending on the amount of food that he receives, it intakes. 'Cause they could be indeed the same type of dish now, but depending on how much he is taking it, he grows. So people grow on different levels. I think if somebody in church is doing that, I think you just have to admonish them, continue to restore, continue to sort of manage them to grow, to hear the word, because the word of God is living, sharper than any two edges. So in other words, it is able to change them, you know? That's why Paul says, I'm not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, because it is the power of God to salvation. In other words, the gospel saves. It has power. It would change the person's mindset if the person receives it. Not that God is not giving it. The gospel has been preached, but I might think it would depend on the person who actually receives, you know? That's why there are certain level of Christian people. You have five brothers. That's why there's five foolish virgins and then five wise virgins, you know? It's not that the groom decided to pick the ones because he just loved them, because they were there who were committing themselves and said, "Hey, we're gonna have oil in our land." And then there are others who were like, "Well, let's just oil runs out. "It's fine, we're gonna do this thing." They were basically lazy with their Christianity. And the world that we're living in today, Paul, I've been saying it for, for, for. I say, there's no room for lazy Christians anymore. If you are lazy in the world that we're living in, my friend, the smallest community in this world will flash you out, you know? And you have to be able to speak up. You have to be, which I'm starting to learn now, is it apologetics? You have to learn to defend the gospel of you, but you can't defend something that you don't even have the strength to do, you know? Other stuff. So continue to admonish the press and continue to encourage them. We store them to a sound mind, you know, to a mind where they are saying to know, oh, between the web policies that you know, you know which one is right, which one is wrong, you're able to discern between right, wrong and right, and walk within that so that nobody has to be watching you like a dog on a leash. Be like, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, you know? Where you just walk saying your cool, your sound, that's fine, you know? Then again, you're able to raise other leaders in different areas and all that kind of stuff. But yeah, I think that's, that's, that's my intake on that. - I hear that, T, is anything you want to add? - I think like with all of these conversations, like it's just very aware of what we said earlier about how you need to be careful that you don't fool yourself, you know? And just to kind of make everybody aware that like, this isn't us saying we have the answers, like we're all just trying to figure this stuff out, you know? And you don't know what's going to happen to who at what time. - For real. - And you know, for me, it's like, I just want to understand like, okay, what is the best way to approach these things? But be very aware of the fact that, look, if you're not careful, you can be the very same person in that very same position. - Even worse. - You know, so it's, it's, it's such a, this Christian walk is such an interesting thing. Like it's a privilege to get to walk here. But you have to like, you know, it talks about walking out of salvation with fear and trembling. It's like you need to really make sure that you, you don't get complacent. Even then you say, oh, I could never do that. Oh, bro, you don't know what you could or couldn't do. - Not the grace of what they go, I'm telling you. - Honestly. So yeah, that's just what I've been, that's what I've been thinking about, even with all these things. You know, because, bro, like some of these people that have fallen, yeah. So like, I, I think I told you all some, I was there when Carlens preached, yeah. There was, he didn't just give like a wishy washy sermon. Like we think he gave a decent sermon. And it makes you think like, but you, you definitely had revelation from God. Think about Judas, yeah. Judas walked with Jesus, like the other 12. - Yeah. - He saw him for, he saw all the stuff. And he still fell. So it's like, yeah, it just needs to be sober, man. - Hundred percent. - Absolutely. And you know, there's one thing I'm starting to learn as a believer, the more I grow with the Lord Jesus Christ, that no matter the amount of revelation you have, you can never think that you are immune to temptation. - Come on. - Jesus said, pray that you may not fall into temptation. Even the Lord Jesus in human form was tempted by the enemy. And he never fell because he gave himself to discipline and to prayer. Because prayer actually makes you disciplined. So I also think that believers ought to be more prayerful than there are when he comes talking. 'Cause nowadays everybody talking, I mean, everybody's with a mic, you know? You know what social media has done to us? Everybody has a platform. And it's like even the list of the ones that shouldn't even speak, they're speaking, you know? And unfortunately, it has caused a lot of backlash, exactly, a lot of mess. So, but at the end of the day, you're not immune to temptation. You know, the other day I was like pumping myself, thinking that I'm the best, I'm the best at this. And then I remember I did something from my wife and the Holy Spirit was like, (laughing) and I felt like, where I acted, yeah, I felt like I acted like a demon. (buzzing) Literally I had to come down and be like, maybe, I'm sorry. I'm really sorry for doing that. And I thought, if anybody in church, yeah, heard what I said to my wife, they would be like, "My goodness, that's the job." (laughing) Then I have to, so I think also it depends, he has to do with the states of your heart, how you are thinking on grabbing that mindset where the Holy Spirit tells you, that was not right. Because he's there to guide us, you know. You could be there right now, Arnold, and the law says, okay, do X, Y, Z, like Moses told you mentioned. Moses didn't enter the promised land. All this while, Bravo's good with the law. And then all of a sudden, lastminute.com, they frustrated him. Anger came and Moses said, I gave you what? Forgot about Jesus, I gave you what? And the law says, ah, you gave them the water, okay. How about you? Don't enter the promised land. Missed it, you know. Missed literally, you can see it with your eyes, bro, right? That the promised land is there. And then you're remembering, it's these members of mine, ungrateful members that caused me not to enter the promised land. Why? 'Cause you ended up into the flesh situation 'cause all of us can get in there. So I don't, I refuse to start walking like as if I'm the best things since life's already, like I am the light of the world in terms of the spirit of Christ that lives on this side of me. I am holy because the spirit of Jesus called this side of me. But I don't walk around thinking that, nah, nah, this one, this one, tempt me, this one, ah, mm-mm. If I see even a glimpse of it, I apply a system that I've always applied before. Praying tongues while I do this all the time. If something is tempting me, I start to pray in tongues. I say, "Look, I'm about to do this, this is not good." But I pray in tongues, before I know it, five minutes, subsided, I'm like, "Lord, thank you for salvation. "Thank you for Jesus Christ." You know, that just makes you the fact that you're human. You will be tempted. There are going to be, before I got married, bro, I was, I was leading worship. And there was these aunties that gives you compliments. You feel like you're the man, and you're the only man on planet. And I am thinking, I could actually do anything I want to do, because, you know, you can call me any time, auntie. I can't call you any time. This is where things get, you have to set boundaries. 'Cause if you don't, no matter how much you're anointed, your anointing is not gonna stop, your trials is going down. That's not, that's not what happened. Anointing will be like, "Okay, when you're ready for a rest." You know? But yeah, so. - Do you have any last thoughts on it? - Yeah, I was gonna say, I think, I think that's a really good and important point, because no matter how long we've been walking, no matter how much we know, no matter how good information we're able to teach, share, no matter how many accolades we think we have as disciples and believers, the minute that we take our eyes off the fact that it could be us and that temptation is something that we, to our subject to, is the minute we're doomed. - I'm sorry. - Because I think even what you said about boundaries, like you only start thinking about boundaries and having tactics for different situations when you accept your humanity, right? When you accept the fact that it is possible for you to, but if I'm the one rolling around with my chest, yeah? Saying, "Yes, I'm alive." I've been in the Lord 10-plus years, and let me go and teach them, right? That's the moment where I will be the fulfillment of the scripture that says that pride comes before the fool, and which fool, F-A-L-L, or F-O-O-L, will be true. But I think just before we wrap up, one opportunity that I don't want us to miss is there could be someone listening right now who is in a position where they're not even thinking about restoring somebody else or seeing something. They are the person. They are the one who has done things that they know that they all not to have done, whether they're in a position of leadership or not, what would be some of your final words that you'd want to leave them with? - No, I've grown faster. Give it to the pastor, eh? - Step it's hard, bro. (laughs) - No, what I would say is, you know, the Bible says in the book of Psalm that God is close to the broken hearted, you know? If you do something, the first thing that happens to you, guilt will each of our cancer sometimes, you know? I've been in that position whereby you do something and you know what you've done, just like David, guilt hits you up. God is not the one to cause you to swim in guilt, you know, for a long time. He will tell you so that you can be restored, you know? There are so many people you could be listening, right? Right now you're thinking, I've done this. This is the worst, this is the worst. There's no such thing as the worst of the worst that God cannot deal with. This is the reason why he died on the cross, you know? That's why Paul was actually the man who was the murderer of those who were preaching the gospel and his heart turned because he met the Lord Jesus Christ and then he became one of the, you know, front runner of the New Testament gospel that we preach today. So don't feel bad, don't feel shattered. Jesus loves you and you just have to allow him to minister to your heart. Allow the Holy Spirit to speak to you, you know? If you need to speak to people, there are connections, there are emails, there are all in this podcast, you can reach to someone and be able to say, look, I wanna talk to someone, people will restore you. You know, people will speak to you. The old minister, the gospel of Jesus Christ, you know? And I'm gonna leave you with this talk. The story of the Samaritan woman made sense so much to me maybe a week ago when Jesus says to her, before I say anything, go and call your husband. And then she says, I have no husband. And the Lord replied to her, he says, you say, well, you have no husband. Even the one that you have is not your husband. And I thought, wow, even back in the days, people were still doing what they're doing today. So it's not new. So nothing is new to the Lord. And the reason why he says, go and call your husband, it was not to expose her. It was to expose the very place where she was dissatisfied with the thing that she desired the most. So she has changed man, to man, to man, to man, to man, to man, to man, to man, to man. Could be that you made a mistake because you're desiring something, but Jesus is the fulfillment of that desire. It's not the people, it's not things. It is the Lord Jesus Christ in your heart. So know that he's the restore. That's why he says, come on to me or you that are heavy laden. And I will give you rest. He is the rest giver. Him alone, no one else, only Jesus is the restore of life. And he's beautiful and he knows how to do it so well without causing you to fall into shame. Because David said, you have not caused my name to be shame and God is faithful. Amen. Amen. Amen. Thank you, brother Jonas, for being part of this episode and for your thoughts. - That's all right. When you're ready to talk about Cat Franklin, call me. (laughing) (laughing) - We did an episode. Thank you guys for listening and we will catch you on the next episode. Peace. - Peace. 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